1 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:08,600 S1: Only days before Donald Trump declared war on Iran. Another 2 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:13,720 S1: Epstein files bombshell dropped, this one relating to allegations against 3 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:17,760 S1: the American president. An investigation revealed that the Department of 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:22,600 S1: Justice withheld more than 50 pages of FBI interviews and 5 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:26,040 S1: notes from conversations with a woman who accused Donald Trump 6 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:29,600 S1: of sexual abuse decades ago, when she was between the 7 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:34,880 S1: ages of 13 and 15 years old. I'm Samantha Sellinger Morris, 8 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:37,919 S1: and you're listening to Morning Edition from The Age and 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:43,199 S1: the Sydney Morning Herald. Today, Foreign Policy Magazine deputy editor 10 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:47,160 S1: Amelia Lester on what some Democrats are calling the largest 11 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:50,880 S1: government cover up in modern history. And if it could 12 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:57,880 S1: hurt Donald Trump. It's March the 3rd. Amelia, welcome to 13 00:00:57,880 --> 00:00:58,640 S1: the podcast. 14 00:00:58,680 --> 00:00:59,800 S2: Thanks for having me, Sam. 15 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,120 S1: Okay, let's just begin. Can you briefly take us through 16 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:05,920 S1: these allegations against Donald Trump that are contained in the 17 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:09,440 S1: more than 50 or so missing pages from the recent 18 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:11,440 S1: release of The Epstein Files? 19 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,319 S2: Yeah. So I just want to flag for listeners that 20 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:17,960 S2: this is a little confusing, because in the original tranche 21 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:20,920 S2: of documents that was released by the Justice Department last year, 22 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:25,040 S2: there was a set of tips that came into an 23 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:30,880 S2: FBI hotline after Epstein was arrested, which were completely unsubstantiated 24 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:33,600 S2: claims about Trump and what Trump may or may not 25 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,280 S2: have done. And Epstein as well, which I think really 26 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,240 S2: muddied the waters here because that was reported on a 27 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,679 S2: lot when those documents came out. But what we have 28 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:45,760 S2: subsequently discovered in the files is a set of allegations, 29 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,080 S2: which come from a woman who says that she was 30 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,440 S2: sexually assaulted by Epstein and Trump as a minor. 31 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,440 S3: Allegations President Trump sexually abused a minor. 32 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:59,080 S4: Related to allegations that President Trump sexually abused a minor. 33 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:02,320 S5: Introduced to Trump by Epstein in the early 1980s and 34 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,640 S5: then alleging that Trump assaulted her when she was roughly 14. 35 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,280 S2: There were four interviews that the FBI did with her, 36 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,840 S2: but only one of those interview summaries was released. And 37 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,760 S2: guess what? It was the interview summary about the Epstein accusation, 38 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:18,560 S2: not the Trump accusations. 39 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,960 S1: And okay, this is massive. Now, we do know, like 40 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,440 S1: you've just said there, that these allegations against Donald Trump, 41 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:34,680 S1: they are unsubstantiated. But do we have any idea about 42 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:37,080 S1: how credible they might be? You know, we do know 43 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:40,760 S1: that the FBI interviewed this woman multiple times. So does 44 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,200 S1: the fact that the FBI interviewed her multiple times suggest, 45 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:46,720 S1: one way or another that her allegations were credible? 46 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:49,840 S2: I don't think we can say one way or the other, 47 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,679 S2: but what we can say is that, as you pointed out, 48 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,920 S2: the FBI did four interviews with her. Only one of 49 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,040 S2: those interviews has been released. And there's a sense that 50 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:02,710 S2: maybe there was a desire not to release the others 51 00:03:02,710 --> 00:03:04,829 S2: because they were related to Trump. The reason why we 52 00:03:04,830 --> 00:03:07,750 S2: even know about these other interviews is basically to do 53 00:03:07,750 --> 00:03:11,030 S2: with the indexing of all these documents, because the index 54 00:03:11,030 --> 00:03:15,150 S2: shows the three other interviews and various investigative journalists whom 55 00:03:15,150 --> 00:03:17,550 S2: I should shout out here, such as Roger Sollenberger, who 56 00:03:17,550 --> 00:03:21,310 S2: has a Substack, and also NPR, discovered that there was 57 00:03:21,310 --> 00:03:24,550 S2: this big gap in the documents based on the indexes. 58 00:03:24,550 --> 00:03:27,190 S2: So I think we can't say one way or the 59 00:03:27,190 --> 00:03:30,110 S2: other whether they're credible. I should point out that that 60 00:03:30,110 --> 00:03:33,950 S2: this woman who made the allegations, they came out many 61 00:03:33,950 --> 00:03:36,870 S2: years after she says that they happened. And the reason 62 00:03:36,870 --> 00:03:38,950 S2: for that is she says that she didn't know who 63 00:03:38,990 --> 00:03:41,350 S2: Epstein was until she saw a photo of him after 64 00:03:41,350 --> 00:03:45,070 S2: he was arrested. So these interviews took place in 2019, 65 00:03:45,110 --> 00:03:49,070 S2: many years after Epstein and Trump were accused of sexually 66 00:03:49,070 --> 00:03:49,910 S2: assaulting her. 67 00:03:50,470 --> 00:03:54,550 S1: Democrats in the congressional committee investigating Epstein say that this is, quote, 68 00:03:54,590 --> 00:03:58,230 S1: the largest government cover up in modern history that has 69 00:03:58,230 --> 00:04:00,630 S1: yet to be. We'll see borne out as to how 70 00:04:00,670 --> 00:04:04,830 S1: truthful or not that is. But many laypeople like myself 71 00:04:04,830 --> 00:04:08,230 S1: would be listening and thinking, okay, is there some untoward 72 00:04:08,230 --> 00:04:10,990 S1: conduct here? Like, you know, is there some suggestion that 73 00:04:11,030 --> 00:04:14,230 S1: someone else has purposely removed them to shield Trump? Because 74 00:04:14,230 --> 00:04:17,510 S1: that's sort of certainly that's what certain Democrats in Congress 75 00:04:17,510 --> 00:04:19,910 S1: are saying. And that's what a lot of people would think, right? 76 00:04:19,950 --> 00:04:22,349 S2: Look, let's look at the facts of this. In February, 77 00:04:22,390 --> 00:04:25,950 S2: after Trump has been elected, in part because people who 78 00:04:25,990 --> 00:04:28,670 S2: were very senior or would become very senior in his 79 00:04:28,670 --> 00:04:32,630 S2: administration promised supporters that they would release the Epstein files. 80 00:04:33,190 --> 00:04:36,070 S2: So he gets into office. And then the very next month, February, 81 00:04:36,270 --> 00:04:39,989 S2: Bondi says on TV that she has the quote unquote 82 00:04:39,990 --> 00:04:42,870 S2: client list, Epstein's client list on her desk. 83 00:04:43,310 --> 00:04:47,789 S6: The DOJ may be releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients. Well, 84 00:04:47,790 --> 00:04:48,670 S6: that really happened. 85 00:04:49,150 --> 00:04:52,550 S7: It's sitting on my desk right now to review. That's 86 00:04:52,550 --> 00:04:56,310 S7: been a directive by President Trump on reviewing that I'm reviewing. 87 00:04:56,710 --> 00:04:59,070 S2: She clearly gets into trouble for that because we hear 88 00:04:59,110 --> 00:05:02,549 S2: nothing else about it until July when the Justice Department 89 00:05:02,550 --> 00:05:05,230 S2: says that Epstein didn't maintain a client list and that 90 00:05:05,230 --> 00:05:07,950 S2: it won't make any files public. And it's only when 91 00:05:07,950 --> 00:05:11,549 S2: a bipartisan initiative by reps. Ro Khanna and Thomas Massie 92 00:05:11,589 --> 00:05:15,950 S2: is introduces the Epstein Files Transparency Act in November of 93 00:05:15,950 --> 00:05:19,070 S2: last year that we finally get some sense of what 94 00:05:19,070 --> 00:05:22,350 S2: is in these files. So all I can say is 95 00:05:22,350 --> 00:05:25,830 S2: that the theme throughout has been, we don't want to 96 00:05:25,870 --> 00:05:27,630 S2: show you what's in these files. 97 00:05:28,630 --> 00:05:31,470 S8: And everybody knew that there was more there. Pam Bondi 98 00:05:31,510 --> 00:05:35,590 S8: had made promises to release the the names. Um, the 99 00:05:35,589 --> 00:05:39,870 S8: Trump administration, whatever we find out, whatever the ground truth is, 100 00:05:40,110 --> 00:05:42,950 S8: it's very clear that they haven't been straightforward, they haven't 101 00:05:42,950 --> 00:05:45,350 S8: been transparent, they haven't been honest. And I think that's 102 00:05:45,350 --> 00:05:47,390 S8: one of the reasons that Democrats now. 103 00:05:51,910 --> 00:05:55,070 S1: So is this I mean, is this a smoking gun 104 00:05:55,110 --> 00:05:58,990 S1: of sorts? Even if these allegations, even if they're not true, 105 00:05:59,270 --> 00:06:02,030 S1: which of course, we don't know. Is this something that 106 00:06:02,029 --> 00:06:04,390 S1: could really hurt Trump? I guess, because of course, like 107 00:06:04,390 --> 00:06:08,270 S1: you say, he has completely wrong run on a mandate of, 108 00:06:08,310 --> 00:06:11,510 S1: you know, there's this conspiracy amongst Democrats and it all 109 00:06:11,510 --> 00:06:15,230 S1: revolves around Epstein, and we are going to let everything out. And, 110 00:06:15,430 --> 00:06:17,870 S1: you know, it seems like time after time after time, 111 00:06:17,870 --> 00:06:20,349 S1: like you've just set out there seems to be a 112 00:06:20,350 --> 00:06:22,870 S1: lot of effort, of course, to conceal what's in these. 113 00:06:23,830 --> 00:06:26,550 S2: But what's interesting, Sam, is that when you go back 114 00:06:26,550 --> 00:06:29,909 S2: to what he said during the campaign, he never actually 115 00:06:29,910 --> 00:06:32,989 S2: promised to release the files himself. I was very careful 116 00:06:33,029 --> 00:06:36,510 S2: before to describe. It was essentially his proxies around him 117 00:06:36,510 --> 00:06:39,230 S2: that pushed this idea that we needed to release Epstein files. 118 00:06:39,230 --> 00:06:41,950 S2: When he was directly asked about it during the campaign, 119 00:06:41,950 --> 00:06:44,150 S2: he essentially demurred. Or he would say, yeah, I'll think 120 00:06:44,150 --> 00:06:46,669 S2: about it. But he was never the one out there saying, 121 00:06:46,670 --> 00:06:48,670 S2: I want to publish these files. And in fact, when 122 00:06:48,710 --> 00:06:52,349 S2: Bill Clinton testified in the House last week under duress, 123 00:06:52,350 --> 00:06:55,150 S2: under a subpoena, Trump said that he did not approve 124 00:06:55,150 --> 00:06:57,510 S2: of that, that he likes Clinton. He does not think 125 00:06:57,550 --> 00:07:00,750 S2: Clinton should be forced to testify about Epstein in Congress. 126 00:07:00,950 --> 00:07:03,989 S2: So one theme the whole way along has been while 127 00:07:04,029 --> 00:07:07,190 S2: Trump's supporters and his proxies really want to push this 128 00:07:07,190 --> 00:07:09,910 S2: issue to the fore, Trump himself has never wanted to 129 00:07:09,910 --> 00:07:10,830 S2: talk about it. 130 00:07:10,870 --> 00:07:14,070 S1: But tell us about the possible political ramifications for Trump. 131 00:07:14,110 --> 00:07:18,390 S1: You know, especially as American senators, they're looking at the 132 00:07:18,390 --> 00:07:21,710 S1: midterm elections in November, and they're thinking, okay, how much 133 00:07:21,710 --> 00:07:24,350 S1: of a liability is Trump going to be? Do we 134 00:07:24,350 --> 00:07:28,350 S1: stick with him? Is this our time to leave? Because yeah, 135 00:07:28,390 --> 00:07:30,830 S1: I mean, Democrats obviously are of course hoping to capture 136 00:07:30,830 --> 00:07:31,510 S1: the House. 137 00:07:32,910 --> 00:07:35,030 S2: One thing that I think is worth watching is the 138 00:07:35,030 --> 00:07:38,270 S2: House Oversight Committee is trying to compel Trump to do 139 00:07:38,310 --> 00:07:41,150 S2: exactly what they compelled Bill Clinton to do last week, 140 00:07:41,150 --> 00:07:43,790 S2: which is testify in front of the committee about everything 141 00:07:43,790 --> 00:07:47,790 S2: he knew about Epstein. It's very mysterious to us, the 142 00:07:47,790 --> 00:07:51,350 S2: nature of their friendship, why it ended. Even Clinton last 143 00:07:51,350 --> 00:07:55,030 S2: week said it ended over disagreement about property. Trump has 144 00:07:55,030 --> 00:07:58,550 S2: previously said that their 15 year friendship ended because Epstein 145 00:07:58,550 --> 00:08:02,790 S2: was stealing his girls from Mar a Lago. So it 146 00:08:02,860 --> 00:08:04,540 S2: would be nice to know a little bit more about 147 00:08:04,540 --> 00:08:06,900 S2: the nature of the friendship. The Wall Street Journal last 148 00:08:06,900 --> 00:08:09,739 S2: year released a birthday card that Trump wrote to Epstein 149 00:08:09,740 --> 00:08:12,500 S2: in 2003. That was very mysterious. It said, we have 150 00:08:12,500 --> 00:08:16,540 S2: certain things in common, Jeffrey. Enigmas never age. May every 151 00:08:16,580 --> 00:08:19,780 S2: day be another wonderful secret. I think that the American 152 00:08:19,780 --> 00:08:23,020 S2: people would be very interested in the House asking Trump, 153 00:08:23,060 --> 00:08:25,860 S2: what is the wonderful secret that you and Epstein shared 154 00:08:25,860 --> 00:08:29,100 S2: over all those years that you were friends? The question is, though, 155 00:08:29,140 --> 00:08:31,500 S2: whether this becomes a more pertinent issue than all the 156 00:08:31,500 --> 00:08:35,340 S2: other issues that are currently consuming American voters. So there 157 00:08:35,340 --> 00:08:38,340 S2: is a war in Iran going on. The economy is 158 00:08:38,340 --> 00:08:42,060 S2: on shaky ground. Trump is very unpopular right now. In fact, 159 00:08:42,059 --> 00:08:45,420 S2: he's as unpopular as he was after January 6th. But 160 00:08:45,420 --> 00:08:48,540 S2: it's unclear whether that's as a result of the Epstein files, 161 00:08:48,540 --> 00:08:51,340 S2: or whether it's because people are feeling an economic pinch. 162 00:08:51,340 --> 00:08:54,980 S2: And that's exactly what he campaigned on fixing for them. 163 00:08:56,620 --> 00:08:57,579 S1: After the break. 164 00:08:58,179 --> 00:09:00,500 S2: The only thing that that the men in these files 165 00:09:00,500 --> 00:09:02,780 S2: have in common is that they all had a great 166 00:09:02,780 --> 00:09:06,540 S2: deal of either power or money or both. And there's 167 00:09:06,540 --> 00:09:11,339 S2: something very disenchanting about how deep that network goes. 168 00:09:19,500 --> 00:09:22,140 S1: Okay. Now obviously you've just mentioned the Iran war, which 169 00:09:22,140 --> 00:09:25,220 S1: as we record this on Monday morning, it's escalating, right? 170 00:09:25,300 --> 00:09:29,300 S1: Of course, there was a joint Israeli American bombing of Iran. 171 00:09:29,340 --> 00:09:32,100 S1: We know of course, Iran's been retaliating just this morning. 172 00:09:32,100 --> 00:09:34,100 S1: We've heard that more than nine people are dead near 173 00:09:34,140 --> 00:09:37,780 S1: Jerusalem in retaliatory strikes. So, of course, I have to 174 00:09:37,820 --> 00:09:42,020 S1: ask you about the timing of this revelation by NPR 175 00:09:42,020 --> 00:09:44,620 S1: and other journalists. Some people have speculated that his strike 176 00:09:44,620 --> 00:09:46,420 S1: on Iran or the timing of it, because we know, 177 00:09:46,460 --> 00:09:48,660 S1: of course, this would have been planned for months. The 178 00:09:48,660 --> 00:09:51,819 S1: timing of it might have been in part to deflect from, 179 00:09:52,179 --> 00:09:54,700 S1: you know, the Epstein files yet again. What do you 180 00:09:54,700 --> 00:09:55,380 S1: make of that? 181 00:09:55,620 --> 00:09:58,380 S2: I'm one of those people who thinks that conspiracies are 182 00:09:58,380 --> 00:10:01,060 S2: often a little bit more complicated than what is the 183 00:10:01,059 --> 00:10:05,420 S2: likely more simple scenario. the neocons that actually have wound 184 00:10:05,420 --> 00:10:08,420 S2: up surrounding Trump, the people who he denounced during his 185 00:10:08,420 --> 00:10:11,100 S2: first term, but who pretty much make up his inner 186 00:10:11,140 --> 00:10:13,300 S2: circle in his second term, have been wanting to bomb 187 00:10:13,300 --> 00:10:15,980 S2: Iran for two decades now. So the fact that they're 188 00:10:15,980 --> 00:10:18,620 S2: now in charge and getting to do it, it is 189 00:10:18,620 --> 00:10:21,740 S2: interesting the timing, but I also think that that's been 190 00:10:21,740 --> 00:10:24,460 S2: a push in Washington for a long time. 191 00:10:24,940 --> 00:10:27,220 S1: It certainly has. I mean, that's what Trump has said, right? 192 00:10:27,220 --> 00:10:30,699 S1: Like this. I'm accomplishing something that no other American president 193 00:10:30,700 --> 00:10:33,660 S1: has been able to accomplish. So let me go. 194 00:10:33,700 --> 00:10:36,500 S2: And it is interesting, though, that that it happens right 195 00:10:36,500 --> 00:10:39,260 S2: now in his second term, a year into his second term, 196 00:10:39,260 --> 00:10:43,460 S2: because the big question that experts are asking about about 197 00:10:43,460 --> 00:10:46,380 S2: this bombing campaign over the weekend. Well, there are two questions. 198 00:10:46,380 --> 00:10:49,340 S2: The first question is why now? There was no imminent threat. 199 00:10:49,340 --> 00:10:52,260 S2: He didn't go to Congress for war authorization, which is 200 00:10:52,260 --> 00:10:54,740 S2: what you need to do if there is not an 201 00:10:54,740 --> 00:10:57,220 S2: imminent threat to the American people. And then the second 202 00:10:57,220 --> 00:11:00,260 S2: question they're asking is why Iran? Because Iran didn't pose 203 00:11:00,260 --> 00:11:01,900 S2: that imminent threat to the US. 204 00:11:01,940 --> 00:11:04,340 S1: I mean, if anything, it's weaker than it has been 205 00:11:04,340 --> 00:11:08,820 S1: in God knows how long. And its allies have essentially, um, 206 00:11:08,820 --> 00:11:13,220 S1: you know, evaporated China, Syria, Russia. So. 207 00:11:13,780 --> 00:11:16,860 S2: And Trump seemed to be distancing himself from Netanyahu in 208 00:11:16,860 --> 00:11:19,860 S2: recent months. There's a lot that's very mysterious about the 209 00:11:19,860 --> 00:11:22,580 S2: timing and the choice to attack right now. I suppose 210 00:11:22,580 --> 00:11:24,580 S2: if one was being generous to Trump, you'd say that 211 00:11:24,580 --> 00:11:27,220 S2: he thinks that it's important to strike the regime while 212 00:11:27,220 --> 00:11:29,620 S2: it's down. It's been weakened by the protests that have 213 00:11:29,620 --> 00:11:33,420 S2: been happening in December and January. But I think, as 214 00:11:33,460 --> 00:11:35,740 S2: with Venezuela, he doesn't have much of a plan for 215 00:11:35,740 --> 00:11:37,420 S2: what happens after that. 216 00:11:37,620 --> 00:11:40,620 S1: And yeah, it's interesting. I'm reflecting, just as you speak, 217 00:11:40,620 --> 00:11:43,140 S1: on something that David Sanger, the white House correspondent for 218 00:11:43,140 --> 00:11:45,819 S1: The New York Times, wrote just to think over the weekend. 219 00:11:45,860 --> 00:11:48,220 S1: And the headline was something like, this is a war 220 00:11:48,220 --> 00:11:51,380 S1: of choice, not of necessity. Yes. And you have to 221 00:11:51,380 --> 00:11:54,100 S1: wonder how how I guess this will impact Trump ahead 222 00:11:54,100 --> 00:11:57,500 S1: of the midterm elections as well, because American soldiers are, 223 00:11:57,540 --> 00:12:00,300 S1: of course, inevitably, tragically going to die or. 224 00:12:00,460 --> 00:12:00,660 S2: Have. 225 00:12:00,660 --> 00:12:01,500 S1: Died. Right. 226 00:12:01,660 --> 00:12:04,410 S2: There's 2 or 3, I think that it's been reported today, 227 00:12:04,450 --> 00:12:07,450 S2: have already died in this campaign. And and the war 228 00:12:07,450 --> 00:12:10,210 S2: is very unpopular. It seems like the the most recent 229 00:12:10,210 --> 00:12:12,890 S2: polling that was done before the weekend suggested that only 230 00:12:12,890 --> 00:12:15,890 S2: about 20% of Americans really wanted this war to happen, 231 00:12:16,090 --> 00:12:18,969 S2: which makes sense. I just keep wondering whether Trump or 232 00:12:18,970 --> 00:12:21,930 S2: the first term, when he campaigned on the idea that 233 00:12:22,170 --> 00:12:24,810 S2: that this forever war, the forever wars, were part of 234 00:12:24,809 --> 00:12:28,250 S2: what catapulted him to power. Americans were sick of seeing 235 00:12:28,250 --> 00:12:31,490 S2: people in the Middle East getting bombed by Americans. And 236 00:12:31,490 --> 00:12:33,650 S2: it's just mind boggling to think of how far he's 237 00:12:33,650 --> 00:12:36,410 S2: come since then. Bringing it back to Epstein. I think 238 00:12:36,450 --> 00:12:38,130 S2: a lot of this has to do with who he's 239 00:12:38,130 --> 00:12:41,370 S2: chosen to surround himself with in the second term. In 240 00:12:41,370 --> 00:12:44,090 S2: the first term, he had people around him, such as 241 00:12:44,130 --> 00:12:48,089 S2: remember Mad Dog, James Mattis, people who were very experienced 242 00:12:48,090 --> 00:12:50,330 S2: in the military and who were able to kind of 243 00:12:50,370 --> 00:12:53,170 S2: give him the reality check he needed in the second term. 244 00:12:53,210 --> 00:12:56,050 S2: People like Siouxsie Wiles, his chief of staff. They just 245 00:12:56,050 --> 00:12:59,250 S2: want to facilitate whatever whims Trump has. It's a very 246 00:12:59,250 --> 00:13:01,010 S2: different environment to the first term. 247 00:13:01,530 --> 00:13:04,090 S1: And now, Amelia, some of our listeners might not know, 248 00:13:04,170 --> 00:13:07,610 S1: but you are absolutely no stranger to the American political establishment. 249 00:13:07,650 --> 00:13:09,970 S1: You're from Sydney originally, but you lived in the US 250 00:13:10,010 --> 00:13:12,850 S1: for more than 15 years. First, outside of Boston, you 251 00:13:12,850 --> 00:13:14,929 S1: went to Harvard, you lived in New York City for 252 00:13:14,929 --> 00:13:17,690 S1: 11 years. You were in Washington for a time. And 253 00:13:17,730 --> 00:13:20,170 S1: of course, now you write about geopolitics and other matters 254 00:13:20,170 --> 00:13:23,010 S1: for Foreign Policy magazine. So I do want your opinion. 255 00:13:23,330 --> 00:13:25,290 S1: Do you think we are ever likely to see these 256 00:13:25,290 --> 00:13:29,050 S1: missing Epstein files that we've been speaking about, that contain 257 00:13:29,050 --> 00:13:32,250 S1: these FBI interviews with allegations by this woman who says 258 00:13:32,250 --> 00:13:34,570 S1: that Trump abused her as a minor. Because we know 259 00:13:34,570 --> 00:13:37,610 S1: that Robert Garcia, the top Democrat on the congressional committee 260 00:13:37,610 --> 00:13:41,290 S1: investigating Jeffrey Epstein, said that he and other Democrats have 261 00:13:41,290 --> 00:13:45,770 S1: been working to demand that the remaining unreleased files get 262 00:13:45,770 --> 00:13:46,770 S1: released to the public. 263 00:13:47,450 --> 00:13:49,850 S2: Yeah, and in fact, there are Republicans who really want 264 00:13:49,850 --> 00:13:53,569 S2: them released to Marjorie Taylor Greene has been really disenchanted 265 00:13:53,570 --> 00:13:57,650 S2: by how this administration has handled the Epstein situation, and 266 00:13:57,650 --> 00:14:01,010 S2: she was a big Trump supporter ahead of the 2024 election. 267 00:14:02,250 --> 00:14:04,010 S2: I don't know if we will ever know. I mean, 268 00:14:04,050 --> 00:14:06,170 S2: I I think the thing that really shocks me about 269 00:14:06,170 --> 00:14:14,130 S2: these files is how widespread the exploitation of girls was 270 00:14:14,130 --> 00:14:17,730 S2: by both Democrats and Republicans. The only thing that that 271 00:14:17,730 --> 00:14:19,690 S2: the men in these files have in common is that 272 00:14:19,690 --> 00:14:22,410 S2: they all had a great deal of either power or 273 00:14:22,410 --> 00:14:27,490 S2: money or both. And there's something very disenchanting about how 274 00:14:27,730 --> 00:14:30,650 S2: deep that network goes. It suggests to me that there 275 00:14:30,650 --> 00:14:32,770 S2: are a lot of powerful interests who don't want us 276 00:14:32,770 --> 00:14:36,010 S2: to understand the full extent of it, and I'm not 277 00:14:36,010 --> 00:14:38,970 S2: sure that with the American political system being such a 278 00:14:38,970 --> 00:14:42,850 S2: football right now between Democrats and Republicans that will ever 279 00:14:42,850 --> 00:14:47,050 S2: have that kind of consolidated power, which will enable us 280 00:14:47,050 --> 00:14:49,330 S2: to see the full extent of the files. 281 00:14:49,570 --> 00:14:52,050 S1: I mean, I have to say, it's so depressing. I mean, 282 00:14:52,090 --> 00:14:53,570 S1: can you believe this is where we are? I know 283 00:14:53,570 --> 00:14:56,050 S1: that we're all thinking this, but that I mean, you 284 00:14:56,050 --> 00:14:59,290 S1: think about what Nixon went down for, what previous American 285 00:14:59,290 --> 00:15:02,970 S1: political figures have been ruined by. And here we have 286 00:15:03,010 --> 00:15:07,530 S1: the president of the United States with allegations against him 287 00:15:07,530 --> 00:15:11,450 S1: that have now been hidden. That he's sexually abused a minor. 288 00:15:11,650 --> 00:15:13,530 S2: Look, again, I don't know what to make of those 289 00:15:13,530 --> 00:15:17,690 S2: claims and they are unsubstantiated. And Trump does deny them. 290 00:15:17,690 --> 00:15:21,130 S2: But what I come back to is how mishandled these 291 00:15:21,130 --> 00:15:24,770 S2: files have been all along. Just remember the fact that 292 00:15:24,770 --> 00:15:28,890 S2: Ghislaine Maxwell was interviewed last year and said that she 293 00:15:28,890 --> 00:15:32,170 S2: never saw Trump involved in sexually inappropriate activity, and as 294 00:15:32,170 --> 00:15:34,130 S2: a result of that, she was interviewed by Todd Blanch. 295 00:15:34,170 --> 00:15:36,730 S2: In fact, and as a result of that, was immediately 296 00:15:36,730 --> 00:15:39,970 S2: moved to a lower security prison. So I'm not getting 297 00:15:39,970 --> 00:15:42,690 S2: out my red string just yet, but I am pointing 298 00:15:42,690 --> 00:15:47,090 S2: out that there's something here, which is weird. It's just weird. 299 00:15:47,370 --> 00:15:51,090 S1: Right? Absolutely. And also weird, as we've discussed, has been 300 00:15:51,090 --> 00:15:53,770 S1: the entire release of the Epstein files, right? I mean, 301 00:15:54,010 --> 00:15:55,489 S1: mishandled at best. 302 00:15:55,810 --> 00:15:59,050 S2: The Justice Department have made the rollout of these files 303 00:15:59,050 --> 00:16:01,650 S2: such a mess. It is so disorganized. They have made 304 00:16:01,650 --> 00:16:04,050 S2: no attempt to file or classify them in a way 305 00:16:04,050 --> 00:16:07,050 S2: that is useful for the public to consume them. And 306 00:16:07,050 --> 00:16:09,290 S2: I think that's a strategy, because if you make the 307 00:16:09,290 --> 00:16:11,370 S2: whole thing look like a mess, it's very hard to 308 00:16:11,410 --> 00:16:14,410 S2: pull anything meaningful out of it. Whether that strategy is 309 00:16:14,410 --> 00:16:18,330 S2: because Trump did anything criminally wrong, or maybe the most 310 00:16:18,330 --> 00:16:21,130 S2: likely explanation is he's maybe just a little bit embarrassed 311 00:16:21,130 --> 00:16:23,330 S2: about this friendship. It was a friendship that he had 312 00:16:23,370 --> 00:16:27,170 S2: for 15 years, a long time ago. We know that 313 00:16:27,170 --> 00:16:29,930 S2: he cut ties with Epstein. For whatever reason. The two 314 00:16:29,930 --> 00:16:33,890 S2: men cut ties a long time before Epstein was even arrested. 315 00:16:34,090 --> 00:16:36,530 S2: So it could just be that he's embarrassed by the 316 00:16:36,530 --> 00:16:39,410 S2: whole thing. He wants it to go away. And, you know, 317 00:16:39,450 --> 00:16:41,370 S2: in my more rational moments, that's kind of where I 318 00:16:41,410 --> 00:16:45,930 S2: land on this, because Trump's the most scrutinized man in history. 319 00:16:46,250 --> 00:16:50,010 S2: So the idea that that these kinds of he's already 320 00:16:50,010 --> 00:16:53,130 S2: been found liable in a civil court for sexual assault, 321 00:16:53,610 --> 00:16:56,490 S2: he's been looked at from every angle for many, many 322 00:16:56,490 --> 00:17:00,210 S2: years now. So where I kind of land ultimately, is 323 00:17:00,210 --> 00:17:03,690 S2: that he might feel a little embarrassed about the friendship. 324 00:17:03,690 --> 00:17:07,040 S2: And that's why we've had this sort of drip, drip strategy. 325 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:08,960 S1: And that's so interesting. And of course, you just mentioned 326 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,520 S1: there his civil liability for sexual assault against E Jean Carroll, 327 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,080 S1: the American writer and columnist. So there is definitely a 328 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,280 S1: part of me that thought, well, he weathered that. No problem. Yeah. 329 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,320 S1: What's the possibility that this will damn him? Because these are, 330 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:24,960 S1: of course, just allegations that was proven in a civil court. 331 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,560 S2: Exactly. I just think that we have to distinguish between 332 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:31,560 S2: whether he wants to be talking about this. And it's 333 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,479 S2: pretty clear that he doesn't, and whether or not there's 334 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,919 S2: some kind of there there in conspiratorial terms. 335 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:40,840 S1: Well, Amelia, it is such a pleasure to have your insights. 336 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:42,320 S1: So thank you so much for your time. 337 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:43,280 S2: Thanks for having me. 338 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,680 S1: In other news today, a Sydney scientist has revealed in 339 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,359 S1: a new study that honey from bees, which have fed 340 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:05,480 S1: on a diverse range of flowers, produced the the most 341 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:10,760 S1: antimicrobial honey, which might be helpful to fight superbugs. Melbourne 342 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:15,640 S1: raised F1 superstar Oscar Piastri is Australia's highest earning athlete 343 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:21,680 S1: from last year, banking $57 million, and the reserve Bank 344 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,440 S1: has defended his handling of interest rates in the battle 345 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:29,560 S1: against inflation, revealing that almost 200,000 more people would be 346 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,639 S1: out of work and mortgage holders hit with much higher 347 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:38,560 S1: repayments if it had more aggressively tightened monetary policy. You 348 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:46,080 S1: can read more at the or smh.com.au. Today's episode was 349 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:50,040 S1: produced by Kai Wong. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills, 350 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:53,960 S1: and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. 351 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,280 S1: If you like our show, follow the Morning Edition and 352 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,560 S1: leave a review for us on Apple or Spotify. Thanks 353 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:01,400 S1: for listening.