1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:05,280 S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:10,240 S1: This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Salinger Morris. It's Monday, 3 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:17,280 S1: December 8th. When American author Anne Applebaum traveled to the 4 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:20,560 S1: front lines of the Sudanese Civil War this year, she 5 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:24,439 S1: gave herself a stern remit. Bear witness to and report 6 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,840 S1: on a lawless world that since the United States has pulled, 7 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,400 S1: most of its aid is now run by warring militias, 8 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:36,400 S1: clans and families where 14 million people have been displaced 9 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:42,080 S1: by years of fighting more than in Ukraine and Gaza combined. Crucially, 10 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,720 S1: she would keep emotion out of it. But then she 11 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,400 S1: met with people who were so thankful for the meager 12 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:54,240 S1: aid the United States was still providing that she felt ashamed. Today, 13 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,760 S1: Anne Applebaum, a staff writer at the Atlantic on how 14 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:00,900 S1: Sudan's civil war shows what the end of the liberal 15 00:01:00,900 --> 00:01:03,980 S1: order looks like, and how the same forces that have 16 00:01:03,980 --> 00:01:12,539 S1: destroyed Sudan are coming for other countries too. And welcome 17 00:01:12,540 --> 00:01:13,740 S1: to the Morning Edition. 18 00:01:13,819 --> 00:01:16,179 S2: Thanks for having me. Well, I'm really looking forward to 19 00:01:16,220 --> 00:01:18,940 S2: talking to you, because you traveled to Sudan twice this 20 00:01:18,940 --> 00:01:22,300 S2: year to both sides of the front line, and not 21 00:01:22,300 --> 00:01:24,860 S2: an insignificant personal risk. I mean, you write about warnings 22 00:01:24,860 --> 00:01:28,460 S2: from friends and people you interview don't drive, you know, 23 00:01:28,500 --> 00:01:31,900 S2: after dark, there's no rescue services if anything goes wrong. 24 00:01:31,900 --> 00:01:34,900 S2: So can you just briefly tell me, where did you go? 25 00:01:35,020 --> 00:01:36,700 S2: And can you tell me about some of the people 26 00:01:36,700 --> 00:01:40,220 S2: or events that you witnessed, that you interacted with, that 27 00:01:40,220 --> 00:01:43,420 S2: have really stayed with you and that have left you thinking, 28 00:01:43,459 --> 00:01:45,780 S2: you know, people need to know about this. I have 29 00:01:45,780 --> 00:01:47,060 S2: to make them care somehow. 30 00:01:48,260 --> 00:01:51,100 S3: So I made two trips. I went to both sides 31 00:01:51,100 --> 00:01:55,060 S3: of the of the most important front line. I went, uh, 32 00:01:55,060 --> 00:01:59,560 S3: one time to get to Darfur, which is in western Sudan. 33 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:01,520 S3: I was able to cross the border because I was 34 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:04,600 S3: traveling with the RSS. And this is the this is 35 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:07,680 S3: one of the militia groups that controls not all, but 36 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:10,600 S3: a lot of the territory in Darfur. And it's one 37 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:14,280 S3: of the two main militia groups that are, well, one, two, 38 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:17,400 S3: two main militarized groups that are fighting, that are fighting 39 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:21,360 S3: the war. Um, the second time I went the other direction, 40 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,720 S3: I went to Khartoum both times, I should say I would. 41 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,359 S3: I went, I went with the one time I was 42 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:28,880 S3: with the RSS and the other time I was with 43 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:33,360 S3: the Sudanese government. So my I didn't have private protection 44 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:35,600 S3: or anything like that. I went I simply went with 45 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,000 S3: the people who were in charge of the areas because 46 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:42,680 S3: that's the safest. I mean, um, funnily enough, the RSS 47 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,920 S3: didn't try to control particularly what I did. Um, the 48 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:50,360 S3: Sudanese army was is very much more controlling about where 49 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:52,359 S3: you can go and what you can see and so on. 50 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:58,109 S3: I mean, I think a few things stick with me. 51 00:02:58,150 --> 00:03:01,350 S3: One of them is a conversation I had with a 52 00:03:01,350 --> 00:03:06,550 S3: very young doctor in, um, outside in a children's hospital 53 00:03:06,590 --> 00:03:10,870 S3: outside of Khartoum. And he had he was somebody who 54 00:03:10,870 --> 00:03:13,230 S3: had studied in Sudan and trained there. He spoke very 55 00:03:13,230 --> 00:03:16,750 S3: good English. Uh, he was in charge, both of children 56 00:03:16,750 --> 00:03:20,709 S3: who'd been wounded in the fighting. But also he was 57 00:03:20,710 --> 00:03:23,630 S3: he had in his ward children who were malnourished, who 58 00:03:23,630 --> 00:03:26,390 S3: came to the hospital because they were they were dying 59 00:03:26,430 --> 00:03:29,109 S3: of hunger. And I had a long conversation with him 60 00:03:29,110 --> 00:03:33,269 S3: about the US, um, and about the end of US 61 00:03:33,270 --> 00:03:37,750 S3: aid and what was particularly awful for me. I mean, 62 00:03:37,790 --> 00:03:40,350 S3: it was a it was very hard to listen to 63 00:03:40,390 --> 00:03:45,470 S3: was him telling me, don't worry, we don't waste anything. 64 00:03:45,510 --> 00:03:47,750 S3: You know, in other words, this is a man who 65 00:03:47,750 --> 00:03:51,750 S3: has he had, you know, their USAID had been delivering 66 00:03:51,790 --> 00:03:56,250 S3: to Sudan these packets of high energy food that are 67 00:03:56,250 --> 00:04:00,930 S3: given to malnourished babies, basically malnourished children. And he had 68 00:04:00,930 --> 00:04:03,369 S3: a supply of it that he'd been given via one 69 00:04:03,370 --> 00:04:07,650 S3: of the NGOs in Sudan. And he was he had heard, 70 00:04:07,650 --> 00:04:10,810 S3: I guess, that USAID was being shut down because it 71 00:04:10,810 --> 00:04:13,530 S3: was wasteful. And he wanted to explain to me that 72 00:04:13,530 --> 00:04:17,010 S3: he wasn't wasting it. It was it was so awful, 73 00:04:17,690 --> 00:04:21,970 S3: you know, that somebody like that, in doing this unbelievable, 74 00:04:21,970 --> 00:04:26,730 S3: amazing job in such difficult circumstances would be somehow apologizing 75 00:04:26,770 --> 00:04:30,410 S3: to us taxpayers for these little packets of they're made 76 00:04:30,410 --> 00:04:34,130 S3: from peanuts. Actually, this kind of high energy food. And 77 00:04:34,170 --> 00:04:37,130 S3: that was a you know, that was that was that 78 00:04:37,130 --> 00:04:38,610 S3: was a moment that stuck with me. And I think 79 00:04:38,610 --> 00:04:41,810 S3: another moment that was very telling. I met with a 80 00:04:41,810 --> 00:04:46,290 S3: group of fairly young Sudanese who are part of a 81 00:04:46,290 --> 00:04:50,450 S3: Sudanese mutual aid group who were created when the civil 82 00:04:50,450 --> 00:04:55,230 S3: war began, who had been, um, many of them had 83 00:04:55,230 --> 00:04:57,710 S3: been part of a democracy movement that had toppled a 84 00:04:57,710 --> 00:05:01,790 S3: previous dictator in Sudan in 2019. And now there they 85 00:05:01,830 --> 00:05:04,630 S3: do humanitarian work, they collect money, they bring in food, 86 00:05:04,670 --> 00:05:07,710 S3: they try to replace NGOs and so on. And a 87 00:05:07,710 --> 00:05:09,470 S3: long conversation with one of them, and one of them said, 88 00:05:09,510 --> 00:05:13,430 S3: you know, the situation in Sudan is, has always been 89 00:05:13,670 --> 00:05:17,909 S3: that one group or the other seeks to control everything 90 00:05:17,910 --> 00:05:21,150 S3: they take charge of. They want, you know, winner takes all. 91 00:05:21,150 --> 00:05:23,110 S3: They take charge of Khartoum and they run the country 92 00:05:23,110 --> 00:05:25,670 S3: and they make money out of running the country. And 93 00:05:25,670 --> 00:05:28,550 S3: then they're challenged by another group who has that same goal. 94 00:05:28,550 --> 00:05:32,070 S3: And really, in the long term, the only thing that 95 00:05:32,070 --> 00:05:36,830 S3: can really save Sudan or stop this endless cycle of 96 00:05:36,830 --> 00:05:41,909 S3: violence is some form of like a liberal peace agreement. 97 00:05:41,950 --> 00:05:44,430 S3: I mean, maybe democracy is too strong a word, but 98 00:05:44,430 --> 00:05:46,950 S3: you would need to create a system where people have rights, 99 00:05:47,270 --> 00:05:51,830 S3: where there's rule of law, where, um, people can compete 100 00:05:51,830 --> 00:05:54,650 S3: in some kind of, some kind of market to to 101 00:05:54,690 --> 00:05:59,410 S3: produce goods. Um, and where there is, there is, um, 102 00:05:59,770 --> 00:06:02,770 S3: you know, some sense of fairness and justice and that's 103 00:06:02,770 --> 00:06:04,890 S3: the only way you can get the war to start. 104 00:06:04,890 --> 00:06:08,490 S3: And of course, this wasn't someone who was influenced by 105 00:06:08,490 --> 00:06:11,770 S3: the United States or who'd been reading this was, you know, 106 00:06:11,810 --> 00:06:14,849 S3: these were these were several people. They weren't reading the 107 00:06:14,850 --> 00:06:18,050 S3: Declaration of Independence. They were this was the conclusion they 108 00:06:18,050 --> 00:06:20,410 S3: came to living in the society that they that they 109 00:06:20,450 --> 00:06:22,770 S3: were in. Um, and it was a, it was an 110 00:06:22,770 --> 00:06:29,450 S3: argument for um, democratic or liberal democratic solutions, you know, 111 00:06:29,490 --> 00:06:31,170 S3: of a kind that you would have heard, you know, 112 00:06:31,210 --> 00:06:33,969 S3: 300 years ago at the time when democracy was first 113 00:06:33,970 --> 00:06:37,089 S3: being invented. Those were those were some of the some 114 00:06:37,089 --> 00:06:40,050 S3: of the, some of the moments that were meant a 115 00:06:40,050 --> 00:06:40,650 S3: lot to me. 116 00:06:41,250 --> 00:06:43,250 S2: And can you just, I guess, give us a picture 117 00:06:43,250 --> 00:06:46,890 S2: of how dire the situation is for people in Sudan 118 00:06:46,890 --> 00:06:50,089 S2: and what sort of aid they are receiving, because you 119 00:06:50,089 --> 00:06:53,470 S2: mentioned there before the doctor who, you know, you were 120 00:06:53,470 --> 00:06:55,990 S2: so moved and sort of it sounds like heartbroken by 121 00:06:55,990 --> 00:06:57,670 S2: him sort of saying to you, oh, don't worry, I'm 122 00:06:57,710 --> 00:06:59,910 S2: not going to waste this, you know, this meager food 123 00:06:59,910 --> 00:07:02,510 S2: that they were getting. And you write at one point 124 00:07:02,510 --> 00:07:05,550 S2: that you felt ashamed because some people there wanted to 125 00:07:05,550 --> 00:07:08,270 S2: make clear just how grateful they were for the tiny 126 00:07:08,310 --> 00:07:11,990 S2: amounts of help that they had received. So just how 127 00:07:12,030 --> 00:07:13,470 S2: dire is it for people? 128 00:07:14,430 --> 00:07:18,670 S3: So it's very hard to measure because, um, journalists can't 129 00:07:18,670 --> 00:07:20,750 S3: really get into Sudan. I mean, the fact that I 130 00:07:20,790 --> 00:07:24,030 S3: got in was almost a miracle. I mean, nobody I 131 00:07:24,030 --> 00:07:26,350 S3: don't know of anybody else who's been into Darfur and 132 00:07:26,350 --> 00:07:29,070 S3: was traveling around there in the last year or so, 133 00:07:29,070 --> 00:07:31,910 S3: the way we were. Um, and this was really through 134 00:07:31,910 --> 00:07:34,310 S3: a connection through a woman, actually, who used to work 135 00:07:34,310 --> 00:07:37,510 S3: for USAID, who was able to organize it. And so 136 00:07:37,510 --> 00:07:39,390 S3: it's very hard to get into Sudan. It's very hard 137 00:07:39,390 --> 00:07:43,710 S3: to travel around, um, the two sides have, you know, 138 00:07:43,750 --> 00:07:48,350 S3: reasons to lie about what's going on in their sector. Um, actually, 139 00:07:48,350 --> 00:07:52,540 S3: the Sudanese government was very, keen to tell us, and 140 00:07:52,540 --> 00:07:55,220 S3: insistent to tell us that there was no starvation in 141 00:07:55,220 --> 00:08:00,860 S3: Sudanese army controlled areas of Sudan. Um, so, uh, and, 142 00:08:01,060 --> 00:08:03,420 S3: you know, it's hard to prove them otherwise it's hard 143 00:08:03,420 --> 00:08:07,060 S3: to collect information. Um, we do know that there has 144 00:08:07,060 --> 00:08:12,580 S3: been an enormous displacement of people, um, that, um, you know, 145 00:08:12,620 --> 00:08:16,260 S3: tens of millions of people have been forced to move, um, 146 00:08:16,260 --> 00:08:19,300 S3: and we know that there's it's the largest death toll 147 00:08:19,540 --> 00:08:22,260 S3: of any war being fought now. And this I think, 148 00:08:22,620 --> 00:08:25,940 S3: you know, Ukraine and Gaza combined, Sudan has has had 149 00:08:25,940 --> 00:08:32,059 S3: more people dying. There is one particular incident, recent incident that, um, 150 00:08:32,059 --> 00:08:36,420 S3: I think if there had been cameras there or witnesses 151 00:08:36,420 --> 00:08:39,420 S3: would now be we would now be talking about it 152 00:08:39,420 --> 00:08:41,900 S3: as a new Rwanda. This was a this was a 153 00:08:41,900 --> 00:08:44,180 S3: siege of a city called Fosha. This was in Darfur. 154 00:08:44,220 --> 00:08:46,940 S3: We couldn't visit it when we were there. Um, because 155 00:08:46,940 --> 00:08:48,740 S3: it was still it was still under siege and there 156 00:08:48,740 --> 00:08:53,200 S3: was active fighting. The city eventually fell. Um, the CSF 157 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:55,800 S3: came into the city and they conducted what looks like 158 00:08:55,840 --> 00:09:00,440 S3: a mass slaughter. So thousands, maybe tens of thousands of 159 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,319 S3: people were murdered. Um, so much so that you could 160 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:07,839 S3: see the blood on the ground from satellite pictures. So 161 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,280 S3: this was a you know, this is a there have 162 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:14,319 S3: been a few incidences of mass murder and ethnic cleansing. 163 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,760 S3: Some some of them involving murder and some just displacing people, uh, 164 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,920 S3: that have been part of the conflict, too. So the two, 165 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:25,920 S3: the main belligerents, um, have sought to move and displace 166 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:30,080 S3: and control civilians, um, as a way of establishing their 167 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:33,400 S3: power in different parts of the country. The two sides 168 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:36,600 S3: are had been part of a single army. So there 169 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:41,000 S3: are two parts of what was the Sudanese army, essentially, um, 170 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,520 S3: a couple of years ago. And they took over the 171 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:47,520 S3: country after there had been a there was a democracy movement. 172 00:09:47,620 --> 00:09:50,340 S3: There was a brief period of civilian government for a 173 00:09:50,340 --> 00:09:53,460 S3: couple of years, and then the army carried out a 174 00:09:53,460 --> 00:09:55,420 S3: coup d'etat, took over the country, and then it was 175 00:09:55,420 --> 00:09:58,459 S3: the army that split. And so the war is between 176 00:09:58,460 --> 00:10:03,619 S3: these two army factions, both of whom have help from 177 00:10:03,620 --> 00:10:07,100 S3: the outside. Each has their different backers. I mean, the 178 00:10:07,460 --> 00:10:11,140 S3: the CSF is largely backed by the Emirates, by the Emiratis. 179 00:10:11,980 --> 00:10:16,260 S3: The Sudanese have friends in Egypt in, um, you know, 180 00:10:16,300 --> 00:10:19,140 S3: in Turkey, in Saudi Arabia. I mean, strangely, the Saudis 181 00:10:19,140 --> 00:10:21,660 S3: and the Emiratis are on different sides. There are other 182 00:10:21,660 --> 00:10:23,740 S3: players in the war as well. There are Russians on 183 00:10:23,740 --> 00:10:27,420 S3: the ground there. They're Iranians. Strangely, there are some Ukrainians 184 00:10:27,420 --> 00:10:31,140 S3: there who are interested in killing Russians. It's a situation 185 00:10:31,140 --> 00:10:33,420 S3: where you have a kind of collapse of the state 186 00:10:33,740 --> 00:10:38,260 S3: and these, um, you know, outsiders fueling what could have 187 00:10:38,260 --> 00:10:41,980 S3: been a local conflict and maybe 200 years ago would 188 00:10:42,020 --> 00:10:45,380 S3: have been, but has been made much more lethal by 189 00:10:45,420 --> 00:10:48,880 S3: this outside involvement. And as I said, the main victims 190 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:49,760 S3: are civilians. 191 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:51,439 S2: Okay. And I was wondering if you could just break 192 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:53,920 S2: it down for us very briefly. You've explained that there's 193 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,320 S2: these two sides. There's the CSF, which is the Rapid 194 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:58,920 S2: Support Forces. That's the paramilitary group. And then you've got 195 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:03,120 S2: the Sudanese army. But really, this fully fledged civil war 196 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,439 S2: broke out in 2023. This is after, you know, this 197 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:10,079 S2: is a region that's had multiple, multiple horrible conflicts, which 198 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:12,280 S2: we'll get into in a bit. But what happened in 199 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:14,559 S2: 2023 and in the lead up, this is what we're seeing. 200 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:16,559 S3: So again the lead up was you know, Sudan was 201 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:20,200 S3: run by a dictator called Bashir for a long time. Um, 202 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,920 S3: in 2019 there was a there had been over the years, 203 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:29,359 S3: I should say, a growing movement of it was students, lawyers, 204 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:31,640 S3: but also all kinds of people from different walks of 205 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:35,160 S3: life who wanted Sudan to be governed in a more 206 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,320 S3: fair way. I mean, as I said, there's a in 207 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,480 S3: very unjust countries, there is a you very often find 208 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,880 S3: this drive for justice. Um, and I think that was 209 00:11:44,950 --> 00:11:50,430 S3: that was the impetus. Um, they were they were backed by, um, 210 00:11:50,429 --> 00:11:53,110 S3: elements in the army who wanted Bashir to go. He'd 211 00:11:53,150 --> 00:11:55,590 S3: been in charge for a long time. He was very corrupt. 212 00:11:55,630 --> 00:11:58,590 S3: You know, there were there were there were competitors. And 213 00:11:58,590 --> 00:12:00,990 S3: then they were allowed to form a civilian government that 214 00:12:00,990 --> 00:12:04,270 S3: ran the country for several years. They wanted to create 215 00:12:04,309 --> 00:12:09,750 S3: a system of, um, you know, fair exploitation of Sudan's resources, 216 00:12:09,750 --> 00:12:13,590 S3: of its gold. Um, it has well, the oil is 217 00:12:13,590 --> 00:12:15,309 S3: mostly in the south, but it has some oil. It 218 00:12:15,309 --> 00:12:19,949 S3: has other assets. And the army, which is used to 219 00:12:19,990 --> 00:12:23,230 S3: which had been used for many years to controlling the 220 00:12:23,230 --> 00:12:27,630 S3: main resources of Sudan, probably objected to that. Um, well, 221 00:12:27,630 --> 00:12:30,790 S3: we know they objected to that, uh, to to those changes. 222 00:12:30,790 --> 00:12:33,750 S3: So the economic changes and the possible political changes were 223 00:12:33,750 --> 00:12:37,950 S3: uncomfortable for an army that wanted to essentially stay in charge. 224 00:12:37,950 --> 00:12:41,630 S3: And they carried out this coup d'état and then but 225 00:12:41,830 --> 00:12:44,890 S3: and that was one tragedy. And then the real tragedy 226 00:12:44,890 --> 00:12:51,290 S3: was when a part of the army, this is the RSS, um, decided, 227 00:12:51,370 --> 00:12:54,370 S3: I mean, again, this is this is contested. Okay. Exactly 228 00:12:54,370 --> 00:12:57,450 S3: how this happened. But the a part of the Army, 229 00:12:57,490 --> 00:13:02,849 S3: which is, um, uh, which had been formed in Darfur 230 00:13:02,890 --> 00:13:05,210 S3: in western Sudan and had been used for many years 231 00:13:05,210 --> 00:13:08,410 S3: by the Bashir government, by the central government to put 232 00:13:08,410 --> 00:13:13,210 S3: down ethnic rebellions in that area? Um, they broke away 233 00:13:13,210 --> 00:13:16,170 S3: from the rest of the army and they attacked Khartoum 234 00:13:16,170 --> 00:13:20,250 S3: and they attacked the leadership. And they they essentially sacked 235 00:13:20,250 --> 00:13:23,090 S3: the city of Khartoum, which is the capital of Sudan. Um, 236 00:13:23,090 --> 00:13:26,770 S3: and they controlled it until until last spring, actually, when 237 00:13:26,770 --> 00:13:29,210 S3: we were there, this was the moment when Khartoum was 238 00:13:29,210 --> 00:13:32,250 S3: falling again to the Sudanese army. And I think at 239 00:13:32,290 --> 00:13:33,969 S3: that point, many people hoped that would be the end 240 00:13:33,970 --> 00:13:38,290 S3: of the war. But sadly, sadly, it's not. Um, so 241 00:13:38,290 --> 00:13:40,250 S3: so the RSF, you have to understand, is a it's 242 00:13:40,250 --> 00:13:45,510 S3: a militia group. It's, um, it's it's very it's an 243 00:13:45,510 --> 00:13:49,030 S3: it's an old group. It's connected to it's sort of 244 00:13:49,070 --> 00:13:54,230 S3: its ethnic origin. Ah. I mean, Arabic speaking, um, nomads 245 00:13:54,230 --> 00:13:57,189 S3: who lived in the western part of Sudan, um, and 246 00:13:57,190 --> 00:13:59,950 S3: who had been used for many years by the central rulers, 247 00:13:59,950 --> 00:14:03,470 S3: as I said, to repress the so-called African population. I mean, 248 00:14:03,510 --> 00:14:07,350 S3: everybody's African and everybody's not everybody even looks all that different. 249 00:14:07,350 --> 00:14:10,510 S3: But there's a there are linguistic differences in Sudan. So 250 00:14:10,510 --> 00:14:14,390 S3: they've been used for that purpose. They staged an uprising 251 00:14:14,390 --> 00:14:17,550 S3: against the Sudanese army. Some people argue the Sudanese army 252 00:14:17,550 --> 00:14:21,270 S3: started it. Never mind. Um, but they did. And that 253 00:14:21,270 --> 00:14:24,910 S3: you've had since then, this, you know, very bitter and 254 00:14:24,910 --> 00:14:29,750 S3: ugly civil war between these factions. Um, and really, what 255 00:14:29,750 --> 00:14:32,830 S3: you have is, is a, um, is a conflict in 256 00:14:32,830 --> 00:14:35,750 S3: which and I think this is probably the real reason why, uh, 257 00:14:35,790 --> 00:14:39,190 S3: it's hard for outsiders to understand is that it's really 258 00:14:39,190 --> 00:14:42,810 S3: not a war about ideology. So it's not like we 259 00:14:42,810 --> 00:14:44,450 S3: can sit back and say, these are the good guys 260 00:14:44,450 --> 00:14:46,130 S3: and these are the bad guys, and these people are 261 00:14:46,130 --> 00:14:50,930 S3: for democracy. It's true that the Army has, um, deeper 262 00:14:50,930 --> 00:14:54,610 S3: and older traditions. Um, it's, you know, it's based on 263 00:14:54,770 --> 00:14:57,290 S3: people from the central part of Sudan who lived along 264 00:14:57,290 --> 00:15:00,090 S3: the Nile. It's the institution that ran the country for 265 00:15:00,090 --> 00:15:02,010 S3: a long time. And it's also true that the origins 266 00:15:02,010 --> 00:15:04,930 S3: of the RSS as a kind of militia that was 267 00:15:04,930 --> 00:15:08,610 S3: used to put down rebellions are pretty ugly. They're both 268 00:15:08,610 --> 00:15:11,730 S3: fighting for full control. I think the RSS is seeking 269 00:15:11,730 --> 00:15:15,530 S3: to create itself either to create a separate state, or 270 00:15:15,530 --> 00:15:18,970 S3: create itself as some kind of separate entity in western Sudan, 271 00:15:18,970 --> 00:15:21,730 S3: and the Sudanese army doesn't want that to happen. So 272 00:15:21,730 --> 00:15:23,930 S3: that's so that's part of what the fight is about. 273 00:15:23,970 --> 00:15:27,090 S3: I mean, I suppose the other important point is that 274 00:15:27,090 --> 00:15:29,930 S3: the one thing that's missing in Sudan that you might 275 00:15:29,930 --> 00:15:34,770 S3: have had in past years is some kind of outside framework. 276 00:15:34,770 --> 00:15:39,230 S3: So some kind of American or European or. Um, When 277 00:15:39,750 --> 00:15:45,230 S3: um international organization backed framework to resolve the war. You know, 278 00:15:45,270 --> 00:15:47,910 S3: some someone with enough political clout who could come in 279 00:15:47,910 --> 00:15:51,790 S3: and make the two sides stop fighting. And, um, one 280 00:15:51,790 --> 00:15:54,870 S3: of the reasons I wrote the article was that I 281 00:15:54,870 --> 00:15:58,590 S3: was looking to understand what does it mean that we 282 00:15:58,630 --> 00:16:01,470 S3: now live in a world in which these international institutions 283 00:16:01,470 --> 00:16:05,670 S3: are breaking down, and the multilateral way of solving things 284 00:16:05,710 --> 00:16:11,590 S3: is become farcical. And the the old system of UN 285 00:16:11,590 --> 00:16:14,990 S3: negotiators who would be sent in to difficult places and 286 00:16:14,990 --> 00:16:19,190 S3: bring sides together, doesn't really function anymore. And I think Sudan, 287 00:16:19,790 --> 00:16:23,110 S3: Sudan's not the only example of where that you know, 288 00:16:23,150 --> 00:16:26,390 S3: how that how the breakdown can feed a conflict. But 289 00:16:26,390 --> 00:16:27,270 S3: it's one of them. 290 00:16:33,030 --> 00:16:46,740 S2: We'll be right back. Well, I really wanted to ask 291 00:16:46,740 --> 00:16:48,940 S2: you about this because, you know, you write in this 292 00:16:48,980 --> 00:16:51,700 S2: Atlantic piece, I think it's about 10,000 words. And you say, 293 00:16:51,700 --> 00:16:54,060 S2: this is what the end of the liberal world order 294 00:16:54,060 --> 00:16:57,300 S2: looks like. And a through line throughout the piece is 295 00:16:57,300 --> 00:17:00,900 S2: just how much America, really, among other institutions and countries 296 00:17:00,900 --> 00:17:03,660 S2: perhaps have abandoned Sudan. So can you just briefly take 297 00:17:03,660 --> 00:17:06,620 S2: us through how much the United States used to support 298 00:17:06,619 --> 00:17:09,659 S2: or help Sudan, and what impact that had, and to 299 00:17:09,700 --> 00:17:13,340 S2: what extent the U.S. really has now abandoned Sudan and why? 300 00:17:14,580 --> 00:17:18,500 S3: So the US had a long involvement in Sudan? Partly. 301 00:17:18,859 --> 00:17:22,139 S3: There were there was a Christian evangelical interest in that 302 00:17:22,140 --> 00:17:23,620 S3: part of the world. There were a lot of big 303 00:17:23,619 --> 00:17:28,379 S3: charities that operated there. There was also because the original 304 00:17:28,619 --> 00:17:31,619 S3: the older version of the RSS, which was called the Janjaweed, 305 00:17:31,780 --> 00:17:34,060 S3: was involved in it. There was a period of ethnic 306 00:17:34,060 --> 00:17:39,600 S3: cleansing in Darfur that interested Americans who were, you know, 307 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,080 S3: felt that the, you know, the fact that the outside 308 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,960 S3: world had missed the Rwandan genocide and had failed to 309 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,280 S3: come to the aid of people who were suffering. 310 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:54,440 S4: In April 1994, the Rwandan government mobilized the Hutu population 311 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:58,280 S4: to massacre their Tutsi neighbors. 1 million people were murdered 312 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:03,840 S4: in just 100 days. The Rwandan society was divided into 313 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:08,000 S4: three so-called ethnicities Hutu, Tutsi, and TWA. 314 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:11,479 S3: There was a moment, you know, it seemed such a 315 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,280 S3: long time ago now. But in the Obama even even 316 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:18,280 S3: George W Bush administrations and Bush one, when there was 317 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,879 S3: an idea of, um, protecting people, you know, that the 318 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,520 S3: function of international institutions and maybe even of the US 319 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,879 S3: military was to protect people from these kinds of mass murders. 320 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:31,919 S3: And so there was a I'm not saying that it 321 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,240 S3: was always a successful intervention, but there were a number 322 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:38,580 S3: of moments when the US intervened to stop genocide or 323 00:18:38,580 --> 00:18:42,619 S3: to stop to stop murder. And, you know, the US 324 00:18:42,660 --> 00:18:45,820 S3: was involved in giving aid to Sudan. USAID had a 325 00:18:45,820 --> 00:18:50,340 S3: huge program there for Sudanese refugees, um, and for, you know, 326 00:18:50,380 --> 00:18:53,900 S3: and other other programs of education and so on as well. 327 00:18:54,020 --> 00:18:58,139 S3: It turned out, actually, when USAID was destroyed by Elon 328 00:18:58,140 --> 00:19:00,940 S3: Musk at the beginning of this year, um, it turned 329 00:19:00,940 --> 00:19:04,980 S3: out that a lot of organizations didn't know how dependent 330 00:19:04,980 --> 00:19:07,460 S3: on USAID they were. So a lot of UN organizations 331 00:19:07,460 --> 00:19:11,540 S3: or other international organizations, it turned out, were using USAID 332 00:19:11,820 --> 00:19:18,060 S3: money or or data or vehicles or food or, you know, 333 00:19:18,100 --> 00:19:21,980 S3: that USAID was somehow underpinning a lot of the logistics 334 00:19:21,980 --> 00:19:25,780 S3: of international aid. And the disappearance of it almost overnight 335 00:19:25,780 --> 00:19:31,060 S3: was very disorienting. Stuff in warehouses was was burned or sold. Um, 336 00:19:31,060 --> 00:19:33,419 S3: and it just vanished. And that was, you know, I 337 00:19:33,420 --> 00:19:35,240 S3: was there at the time when people were just beginning 338 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,600 S3: to see this and understand it. You know, when the 339 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,640 S3: Americans are gone and the and and others who used 340 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:44,399 S3: to play negotiating roles in Sudan are gone, you know, 341 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,439 S3: it's not like you get something better. I mean, instead, 342 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:49,640 S3: what happens is you have a vacuum. And as I said, 343 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:54,399 S3: these different, you know, Turkey, Egypt's you know, Emirates and 344 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:55,720 S3: and Saudis come in. 345 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:58,800 S2: And it's so interesting because you write in the piece that, 346 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,880 S2: you know, the George W Bush and Barack Obama administrations, 347 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,600 S2: they invested real diplomatic and political effort in Sudan, largely 348 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,600 S2: because Americans wanted them to. And, you know, there was 349 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,920 S2: that pivotal moment in 2004 when Colin Powell, who was 350 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,199 S2: then the US secretary of State, declared that what was 351 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,920 S2: happening then in Sudan was a genocide. 352 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:22,840 S5: We concluded, I concluded, that genocide has been committed in Darfur, 353 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:27,080 S5: and that the government of Sudan and the Janjaweed bear responsibility, 354 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:29,879 S5: and that genocide may still be occurring. 355 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,220 S2: So what's happened? What's happened between then and now that 356 00:20:33,220 --> 00:20:37,220 S2: there's this brutal, you know, removal of aid. And I 357 00:20:37,220 --> 00:20:39,060 S2: don't know if you would call it full neglect or, 358 00:20:39,100 --> 00:20:41,580 S2: you know, obviously there are individuals there that you've spoken 359 00:20:41,580 --> 00:20:45,060 S2: to from American organizations and elsewhere who are very passionate 360 00:20:45,060 --> 00:20:48,100 S2: about doing whatever they can. But you do write about, 361 00:20:48,140 --> 00:20:51,540 S2: you know, this being a post-American world. So what happened? 362 00:20:52,340 --> 00:20:55,820 S3: I think it's a combination of things. I mean, I think, um, 363 00:20:56,380 --> 00:20:59,860 S3: partly a kind of disillusion with aid, you know, and 364 00:20:59,900 --> 00:21:02,500 S3: wondering whether it was working or, you know, and so on, 365 00:21:02,500 --> 00:21:04,940 S3: but also something deeper than that. I think there's been 366 00:21:04,980 --> 00:21:10,740 S3: a real brutalization of American culture, maybe of everybody's culture. Um, 367 00:21:11,180 --> 00:21:14,540 S3: we see so many images on our screens, you know, 368 00:21:14,580 --> 00:21:17,180 S3: that come in front of us every day. You know, 369 00:21:17,220 --> 00:21:21,739 S3: horrible things, good things, kitty cat pictures. Um, and I 370 00:21:21,740 --> 00:21:27,140 S3: think the, the images that used to move people, um, 371 00:21:27,380 --> 00:21:30,459 S3: of hunger or of violence or of the, of the 372 00:21:30,460 --> 00:21:35,530 S3: aftermath of violence. Don't do it anymore. Um. That's my. 373 00:21:36,850 --> 00:21:39,489 S3: You know, that's my feeling. You also have now in 374 00:21:39,490 --> 00:21:45,369 S3: the US, you have, um, an administration that is, you know, 375 00:21:45,810 --> 00:21:50,609 S3: openly scornful, I mean, scornful of Africa and Africans, um, 376 00:21:50,650 --> 00:21:53,850 S3: talking about shithole countries. I mean, there was a statement 377 00:21:53,850 --> 00:21:57,050 S3: made by President Trump just a day or two before 378 00:21:57,050 --> 00:21:59,810 S3: we've made this recording, um, in which he's talking about 379 00:21:59,810 --> 00:22:04,330 S3: Somalis in there's a Somali community that lives in Minneapolis, 380 00:22:04,650 --> 00:22:06,490 S3: and he attacked the Somalis. 381 00:22:06,850 --> 00:22:08,929 S6: I don't want them in our country. Their country is 382 00:22:08,930 --> 00:22:12,969 S6: no good for a reason. Their country stinks, and we 383 00:22:13,010 --> 00:22:14,330 S6: don't want them in our country. 384 00:22:14,450 --> 00:22:20,050 S3: And the animus towards Africa and a kind of aggressive, 385 00:22:20,770 --> 00:22:23,090 S3: it's not just that we're, you know, we're not interested. 386 00:22:23,090 --> 00:22:26,250 S3: We don't care. It's kind of aggression against them is 387 00:22:26,250 --> 00:22:30,010 S3: something there's a strand of that inside the MAGA movement 388 00:22:30,010 --> 00:22:33,470 S3: that I think has, um. That's quite chilling. 389 00:22:33,510 --> 00:22:36,830 S2: And what is that about? I mean, because Trump made that, uh, comment. 390 00:22:36,869 --> 00:22:39,550 S2: He called Somalis garbage that he didn't want in the country. 391 00:22:39,550 --> 00:22:41,229 S2: And he made that comment at the end of a 392 00:22:41,230 --> 00:22:43,510 S2: cabinet meeting. You know, The New York Times has called 393 00:22:43,510 --> 00:22:46,429 S2: it a xenophobic tirade. And obviously, we know that Donald 394 00:22:46,470 --> 00:22:49,990 S2: Trump has for years, for a very long time, had 395 00:22:50,109 --> 00:22:53,430 S2: very negative things to say about people from African countries 396 00:22:53,430 --> 00:22:56,590 S2: in particular. But what's happening now that there is this 397 00:22:56,630 --> 00:22:57,909 S2: such extreme? 398 00:22:58,070 --> 00:23:03,909 S3: There is there's xenophobia, there's racism there, obviously, um, there 399 00:23:03,910 --> 00:23:06,670 S3: is a you know, he is he comes from and 400 00:23:06,670 --> 00:23:10,149 S3: in turn appeals to I don't think it's the majority, actually, 401 00:23:10,150 --> 00:23:13,830 S3: but to a part of American society that, um, is 402 00:23:13,830 --> 00:23:16,990 S3: nostalgic for an era when there were, I don't know, 403 00:23:17,030 --> 00:23:19,790 S3: more white people than, than than than there are now 404 00:23:19,830 --> 00:23:22,230 S3: or that's what they think. Um, and which there was 405 00:23:22,230 --> 00:23:24,429 S3: a different kind of racial hierarchy. And I mean, I 406 00:23:24,430 --> 00:23:27,030 S3: don't I don't have any other way to explain it. Um, 407 00:23:27,070 --> 00:23:31,090 S3: except that that's part of, um, that's part of their 408 00:23:31,090 --> 00:23:33,210 S3: appeal to some people and that's part of who they are. 409 00:23:33,250 --> 00:23:36,410 S3: I mean, even even as we're speaking, there's a negotiation 410 00:23:36,410 --> 00:23:40,810 S3: going on in Ukraine where it's pretty clear that Trump's negotiators, 411 00:23:40,810 --> 00:23:47,090 S3: Steve Witkoff and, um, and Jared Kushner are at least 412 00:23:47,090 --> 00:23:52,690 S3: partly there to negotiate business deals between America and Russia. Um, 413 00:23:52,690 --> 00:23:55,170 S3: and we know this because of the documents they produced 414 00:23:55,170 --> 00:23:59,530 S3: and leaked phone calls and other things. So, um, you know, 415 00:23:59,570 --> 00:24:03,050 S3: if so, they're very transactional about a war that directly 416 00:24:03,050 --> 00:24:07,770 S3: threatens America's closest allies in NATO. So if they're if 417 00:24:07,770 --> 00:24:12,889 S3: they're transactional and, you know, cynical about that war, then 418 00:24:12,890 --> 00:24:14,770 S3: you can imagine how they feel about a war in 419 00:24:14,770 --> 00:24:17,210 S3: Sudan where they don't know who the players are and 420 00:24:17,210 --> 00:24:20,210 S3: they aren't interested in getting involved, and they don't really 421 00:24:20,210 --> 00:24:23,490 S3: have the expertise. So it's you've had a real sea 422 00:24:23,530 --> 00:24:29,750 S3: change in American attitudes to the outside world, you've had 423 00:24:29,790 --> 00:24:33,830 S3: a kind of hardening and coarsening of American political culture. Um, 424 00:24:33,869 --> 00:24:37,030 S3: maybe that's coming from something deeper in the culture, from, 425 00:24:37,070 --> 00:24:39,230 S3: you know, from the way we now all get and 426 00:24:39,230 --> 00:24:44,109 S3: process information. Um, you have an element probably of racism. 427 00:24:44,109 --> 00:24:46,590 S3: You have, um, you have a lot of things working 428 00:24:46,630 --> 00:24:50,109 S3: together to, to, to make, you know, to, to to 429 00:24:50,190 --> 00:24:53,550 S3: push this issue off the off everybody's radar. We live 430 00:24:53,550 --> 00:24:58,670 S3: in a world that is much more, um, immune to, um, 431 00:24:58,910 --> 00:25:01,470 S3: to the idea of helping people who are far away 432 00:25:01,470 --> 00:25:02,510 S3: who don't look like us. 433 00:25:03,030 --> 00:25:04,869 S2: But you write that it's not just the United States 434 00:25:04,869 --> 00:25:08,590 S2: that's abandoned Sudan, and it's left this, you know, horrific vacuum. Really, 435 00:25:08,630 --> 00:25:11,350 S2: it reads like something out of like an apocalyptic, sort 436 00:25:11,350 --> 00:25:15,350 S2: of mad Max sort of landscape. It really is that horrific. 437 00:25:15,670 --> 00:25:17,750 S2: And this is where you write that middle powers, they're 438 00:25:17,750 --> 00:25:20,949 S2: fighting over gold and coveted land, and the civilians are 439 00:25:20,950 --> 00:25:23,590 S2: just getting caught in the crossfire. So who else has 440 00:25:23,590 --> 00:25:26,459 S2: abandoned Sudan? You know who else is, I don't know, 441 00:25:26,460 --> 00:25:28,980 S2: possibly implicated in this suffering. 442 00:25:29,540 --> 00:25:31,379 S3: Well, you can I mean, I have a section in 443 00:25:31,380 --> 00:25:34,900 S3: the piece which is also about the UN. Um, and 444 00:25:34,900 --> 00:25:38,500 S3: I'm not really accusing particular people at the UN of 445 00:25:38,540 --> 00:25:41,540 S3: doing anything, but it's a they're a lot of people 446 00:25:41,540 --> 00:25:44,420 S3: I spoke to had a lot of reflections on the 447 00:25:44,420 --> 00:25:47,460 S3: decline of the UN and even how you could measure it. 448 00:25:47,540 --> 00:25:50,620 S3: It used to be that, as I said, you had 449 00:25:50,660 --> 00:25:54,619 S3: UN negotiators to end the conflict in East Timor. You 450 00:25:54,660 --> 00:25:59,020 S3: used to have, um, outside groups who who had a 451 00:25:59,020 --> 00:26:01,940 S3: mandate to, um, to bring people together and to try 452 00:26:01,940 --> 00:26:04,659 S3: to find solutions to civil wars or to conflicts or 453 00:26:04,660 --> 00:26:07,540 S3: to ethnic cleansing, episodes of ethnic cleansing. I think the 454 00:26:07,540 --> 00:26:13,220 S3: last UN peacekeeping mission was something like 2014. So it 455 00:26:13,220 --> 00:26:17,380 S3: was over a decade ago. And since then the, the, 456 00:26:17,380 --> 00:26:20,300 S3: the breakdown of the UN, which is really more closely 457 00:26:20,300 --> 00:26:23,020 S3: related to the way in which great powers behaved, because 458 00:26:23,020 --> 00:26:25,879 S3: this is to do with the UN Security Council. Uh, 459 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,919 S3: you know, it used to be that, you know, the 460 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,280 S3: Russia would try to get along with the US, and 461 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,280 S3: the Chinese would try to remain neutral. Um, and you 462 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,760 S3: now have active antagonism between the US and Russia, between 463 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,880 S3: the US and China. Um, you have a, you know, 464 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,360 S3: just an inability to get any kind of consensus that 465 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:47,159 S3: would allow you to put forward a common UN program. 466 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:51,000 S3: And so as that breaks down, there just isn't it's 467 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,040 S3: not being replaced by anything. Is is what I'm saying. 468 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,440 S2: And so, I mean, I'm just curious, you've been there 469 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,480 S2: on the ground and as you've mentioned, it's so expensive 470 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,120 S2: to get there. Papers aren't sending people there. So it's 471 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,360 S2: very difficult to get information out of there. So do 472 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,520 S2: you have a message? I guess for a middle power 473 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,399 S2: like Australia, like what should countries like ours be doing 474 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,480 S2: to help the situation if they can? 475 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,040 S3: I mean, there are a lot of little countries that 476 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,240 S3: have good NGOs there. You know, there's a you know, 477 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,160 S3: I had some help and I ran into Norwegians and 478 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,260 S3: Czechs and all kinds of people who are working there. 479 00:27:24,300 --> 00:27:28,700 S3: I mean, they're small. They're humanitarian roles that Australians can play. 480 00:27:28,940 --> 00:27:31,020 S3: I mean, it all depends on your ambition. I mean, 481 00:27:31,060 --> 00:27:35,820 S3: remember that Norway was once, um, you know, the Oslo 482 00:27:35,859 --> 00:27:38,780 S3: agreements in the Middle East in the 1990s were conceived 483 00:27:38,780 --> 00:27:42,859 S3: by Norwegian government that wanted to do it, not because 484 00:27:42,859 --> 00:27:44,980 S3: they have any historical interest in the Middle East, but 485 00:27:44,980 --> 00:27:47,020 S3: because they felt it was a good thing to do. 486 00:27:47,060 --> 00:27:49,500 S3: There were just Norwegian diplomats who wanted to be involved, 487 00:27:49,900 --> 00:27:52,619 S3: and I can imagine, um, there being a role for 488 00:27:52,619 --> 00:27:56,020 S3: Australian diplomats. If they wanted to, um, they would certainly 489 00:27:56,020 --> 00:27:59,940 S3: be seen as neutral there. Um, and, and there is 490 00:27:59,940 --> 00:28:02,620 S3: certainly a role for Australian NGOs. I mean, there are 491 00:28:02,619 --> 00:28:06,380 S3: functioning NGOs on the ground and there is, as I said, this, 492 00:28:06,380 --> 00:28:10,020 S3: this er movement, it's called the emergency response rooms. These 493 00:28:10,020 --> 00:28:13,900 S3: are the Sudanese who created this mutual aid organizations, and 494 00:28:13,900 --> 00:28:17,700 S3: they're all over the country. Um, you know, Australia could 495 00:28:17,700 --> 00:28:21,220 S3: help them. Um, they're, they're they're the people who are 496 00:28:21,220 --> 00:28:24,760 S3: in contact with ordinary people. They have very, you know, 497 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:29,000 S3: I mean, literally like village level and street level operations. Um, 498 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,640 S3: you could, you know, the Australian government could create a 499 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,679 S3: program working with them. Um, and that would probably be 500 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,440 S3: the most efficient and effective way, uh, to help the Sudanese. 501 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,080 S3: So there there are small things that you could do. And, um, 502 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,360 S3: you know, if your diplomats ever had the time, I'm sure, 503 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,960 S3: you know, they would be treated as neutral and interesting outsiders. 504 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:53,160 S2: And just to wrap up, I'm wondering also whether this peace, 505 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,160 S2: whether I wonder if you wrote it as something of 506 00:28:55,160 --> 00:29:00,040 S2: a warning to to countries, even wealthy countries, countries like ours, because, 507 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,120 S2: you know, you do write that this is, you know, 508 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,080 S2: what the end of the liberal world order looks like. 509 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,560 S2: But you write that the same forces that have destroyed 510 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,760 S2: Sudan are coming for other countries too. So is that 511 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,040 S2: sort of is this something you see for other parts 512 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:12,440 S2: of the world? 513 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,200 S3: Sudan is a country that fell apart very fast. I 514 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,280 S3: met a young man in his 20s there, another person 515 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:21,900 S3: who I found who was very moving to speak to. 516 00:29:22,100 --> 00:29:25,740 S3: Who'd been in university studying graphic design. Or he was 517 00:29:25,740 --> 00:29:29,340 S3: about to start university studying graphic design at the time 518 00:29:29,380 --> 00:29:32,820 S3: the Civil War broke out. And literally like from one 519 00:29:32,820 --> 00:29:36,180 S3: day to the next, he lost his future and he 520 00:29:36,180 --> 00:29:38,700 S3: was on his way to university to do this. And 521 00:29:38,700 --> 00:29:42,020 S3: Sudan had universities and had good universities and had hospitals 522 00:29:42,020 --> 00:29:44,380 S3: that had schools. I mean, it's a it's a poor country, 523 00:29:44,380 --> 00:29:47,620 S3: but it wasn't a disintegrated country. You know, there was 524 00:29:47,620 --> 00:29:50,580 S3: a there was a functioning state. Um, and he he 525 00:29:50,580 --> 00:29:53,940 S3: lost it overnight. And it happened very fast. And these 526 00:29:53,940 --> 00:29:57,940 S3: huge displacements of people, you know, enormous refugee camps, you know, 527 00:29:57,980 --> 00:30:01,180 S3: emerged from one day to the next. Um, and so the, the, 528 00:30:01,180 --> 00:30:05,860 S3: the breakdown of civilization can take place quite quickly. I mean, 529 00:30:05,860 --> 00:30:09,580 S3: once people set out to destroy the state, once there's 530 00:30:09,660 --> 00:30:13,540 S3: a determined group of armed people who want to end 531 00:30:13,580 --> 00:30:16,460 S3: the political system as it exists, they can they can 532 00:30:16,460 --> 00:30:19,100 S3: do it very fast. Um, and of course, I mean, 533 00:30:19,140 --> 00:30:20,489 S3: when I, when I wrote that, I mean, I was 534 00:30:20,490 --> 00:30:24,170 S3: thinking of states near Sudan, some of which are affected 535 00:30:24,170 --> 00:30:27,010 S3: by the violence and by the refugee flows and by 536 00:30:27,010 --> 00:30:28,890 S3: the gun running, you know, that go through the I mean, 537 00:30:28,890 --> 00:30:32,490 S3: this is Chad and Ethiopia. Um, you know, Kenya, these 538 00:30:32,490 --> 00:30:35,330 S3: are these are all states that are, you know, where they're, 539 00:30:35,690 --> 00:30:38,410 S3: you know, Egypt, actually where where they where they feel 540 00:30:38,410 --> 00:30:42,570 S3: impact of the war. Um, and it's perfectly plausible that 541 00:30:42,570 --> 00:30:45,650 S3: the Sudanese war could somehow spill over into one of 542 00:30:45,650 --> 00:30:48,170 S3: the neighboring countries. Um, and then you could have a 543 00:30:48,170 --> 00:30:51,490 S3: breakdown in one of those places as well. So, you know, 544 00:30:51,530 --> 00:30:54,530 S3: civilization is a lot more fragile than we like to think. 545 00:30:54,570 --> 00:30:58,730 S3: I mean, it, um, the people who are determined to 546 00:30:58,770 --> 00:31:02,330 S3: wreck your state or wreck your system and who are, 547 00:31:02,370 --> 00:31:05,330 S3: you know, armed and able to do it can, as 548 00:31:05,330 --> 00:31:07,210 S3: I said, it can go. It can go quickly. 549 00:31:10,050 --> 00:31:12,250 S2: Well, and it is an absolute privilege to speak to 550 00:31:12,250 --> 00:31:14,930 S2: you about this. So thank you so much for your time. 551 00:31:15,490 --> 00:31:17,770 S3: Thank you. I'm really delighted to speak about it. Thanks 552 00:31:17,770 --> 00:31:18,990 S3: for for your interest. 553 00:31:33,750 --> 00:31:37,110 S2: Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself 554 00:31:37,110 --> 00:31:41,150 S2: and Josh towers. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom 555 00:31:41,150 --> 00:31:43,950 S2: Mackendrick is our head of audio. To listen to our 556 00:31:43,950 --> 00:31:47,110 S2: episodes as soon as they drop, follow the Morning Edition 557 00:31:47,110 --> 00:31:51,230 S2: on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our 558 00:31:51,230 --> 00:31:55,550 S2: newsrooms are powered by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism, 559 00:31:55,550 --> 00:32:01,510 S2: visit The Age or Smh.com.au. And to stay up to date, 560 00:32:01,510 --> 00:32:03,990 S2: sign up to our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a 561 00:32:03,990 --> 00:32:06,950 S2: summary of the day's most important news in your inbox 562 00:32:07,110 --> 00:32:12,110 S2: every morning. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris, 563 00:32:12,270 --> 00:32:13,390 S2: thanks for listening.