S1: Hey, I'm Osman Farooqi and this is the drop a
S1: culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age,
S1: where we dive into the latest in the world of
S1: pop culture and entertainment. He's not Dylan Thomas, I'm not
S1: Patti Smith, he's Thomas Mitchell. How you doin, man?
S2: I'm well, I'm well, we are here. The two of us.
S2: The tortured legends department. Finally, finally back together. How are
S2: you going?
S1: I'm all right, man. I've been sick, uh, over the
S1: last few days. People can probably tell from my voice.
S1: Doesn't sound 100%, but, um, you know, we'll do our
S1: best in this episode. We'll muster through.
S2: I figured that was just from screaming daddy, I love him!
S1: Oh, it's been a very big week for pop culture, man.
S1: Taylor Swift released her new album, The Tortured Poets Department,
S1: on Friday. It caused mass derangement from every quarter. Finally here.
S3: Taylor Swift officially entering a brand new era with a
S3: huge surprise upper.
S4: Swifties are listening to a new sound this morning. Plenty
S4: of new sound. In fact, Taylor's hotly anticipated new album,
S4: The Tortured Poet's Department, 11th.
S5: Studio album from the megastar, a self-proclaimed lifeline featuring 31
S5: brand new songs across multiple variants.
S1: Two hours after that, Thomas she released a second album,
S1: another 15 tracks, causing further derangement. This time for me
S1: specifically because I had this wonderful coverage strategy laid out
S1: for Friday and the weekend newspapers about how we were
S1: going to review and talk about this album. It was
S1: all ready to go. It was all done and dusted
S1: by like 4 p.m. and then the word comes through
S1: that there's a second album and basically ruined my afternoon
S1: as I started to get unwell. But basically that's on me.
S1: This this is not an episode about me complaining personally
S1: about what this did to my work life balance, but, um, no,
S1: that was that was a big day Friday. It's fair
S1: to say.
S2: Yeah, I mean, she loves a surprise. The whole album,
S2: like from the minute we learnt about it, has been
S2: kind of couched in the surprise element. So I guess
S2: it kind of makes sense. But I do suspect that
S2: the surprise element and the addition of an anthology has backfired.
S2: But yeah, it's been a huge week. Yeah.
S1: We're gonna we're going to talk a lot about this album,
S1: but specifically, I think also going to discuss the build up,
S1: the reception among fans and critics. And I think something
S1: we've alluded to before, Taylor Swift fatigue that seems to
S1: be hitting a lot of people and what that means for,
S1: I guess, the Swifty project going forward. And for people
S1: like us who who talk about her work and what
S1: it means for the culture more generally, we're just going
S1: to talk briefly about the finale of Shogun, one of
S1: my favorite shows over the past few months, and Baby Reindeer,
S1: the Netflix sleeper hit series that you mentioned last week
S1: on the Impress Your Friends segment. Seems like a lot
S1: of people have jumped on it, and there's a lot
S1: to discuss about that very, very, very interesting show. But
S1: before we get to any of that, there's one story
S1: that's gripped the nation in the past few days. It's
S1: got an Annabel Crab from the ABC writing about the
S1: culture wars again. Are you across this RJ Barker news?
S2: Thomas I am across this RJ Barker news. It's crazy
S2: that we're talking about RJ Barker in 2024.
S1: It's so weird man. So so RJ Berkus, comedian who
S1: I guess first became known to Australians from his appearances
S1: on The Glass House, like in the mid 2001 of
S1: those American comedians that seem to have way more success
S1: in Australia and has kind of toured here a lot
S1: and seems to be quite popular. I've never seen him.
S1: Have you, have you seen his shows?
S2: Yeah, I've seen him before. My, my kind of main
S2: connection to RJ Barker is that I went out to
S2: dinner with friends like, a few months ago, and I
S2: shampooed my hair right before dinner. It was really floppy,
S2: and everyone called me RJ Barker the entire night because
S2: he's got that really specific hair. That's a really.
S1: Good context to this conversation we're gonna have.
S2: Just so everyone knows that. But yeah, basically, he's one
S2: of those American comedians. He lives here now. He's been
S2: popular forever. Um, you know, like a staple of the
S2: festival circuit, does Melbourne Comedy Festival, every Sydney International Comedy Festival.
S2: So yeah, he's one of those people that everyone just knows.
S2: And fair to say, I think like an arch barker
S2: show comes and goes most years without any kind of
S2: ripple in the wider media.
S1: It's a very good way of putting it. But this
S1: time around, at the Melbourne International Comedy Festival, things got
S1: a little bit controversial. So Arj was performing over the
S1: weekend at the Athenaeum Theatre in Melbourne. At one point
S1: during the show, he started to hear a baby cry
S1: or make some noise. After a little bit of back
S1: and forth with the mother, he he asked them to
S1: leave the show. The mother went on radio on Monday
S1: morning and sort of said, look, you know, it wasn't
S1: a great experience for me. She explained what happened from
S1: her perspective. The baby was gurgling a little bit. She
S1: said she was breastfeeding, so she needed to bring the
S1: kid with her. It gurgled, it winged, but nothing super loud.
S1: She said that Barker came over and she thought that
S1: he was joking when he asked her to take the
S1: baby out, but eventually she realised he was serious and
S1: she left along with a group of people around her.
S1: Now there's a couple of different accounts of what happened.
S1: Another attendee who was there had a slightly different take,
S1: he said. It wasn't a little bit of gurgling. The
S1: baby was actually crying. I was on the second level
S1: up and I could hear it, they said. Khaled was distracted.
S1: He was trying to tell a joke. He quite politely
S1: stopped and said, would you mind? Could you please leave?
S1: And she just sat there and the baby settled down
S1: and a few minutes later it started again. So he said, look,
S1: I was trying to be respectful in this situation, but
S1: the baby was actually interrupting his his live performance show.
S1: So look, this obviously sparked a lot of conversation about
S1: various things. I think this question of bringing kids to
S1: live performances, the right of mothers, obviously to participate in
S1: public life and do things, you know, mums are allowed
S1: to do stuff. They don't just become housebound individuals once
S1: they choose to have a child. You, Thomas, you're a
S1: dad with a young child. What was your immediate kind
S1: of reaction to to this one?
S2: Yeah, it's a pretty crazy one. I mean, obviously, I
S2: think it's worth mentioning that, you know, it's hard for
S2: us as two guys to have this conversation. Um, we
S2: miss Melanie Kimber so much, but especially in these moments.
S2: But no, look, I do think it's interesting more in
S2: what it's revealed about the way a situation like this
S2: kind of snowballs into so many different conversations. I think, firstly,
S2: the issue is that it's been it quickly became this
S2: like conversation around breastfeeding, which as far as you can
S2: gather from like reading all the different like witness accounts,
S2: that was obviously never the issue. I don't think anyone
S2: in their right mind has an issue with breastfeeding in public,
S2: and I'm kind of convinced enough that that wasn't the
S2: issue for Rebecca, you know? And so the kind of
S2: need to put that aside, like what really seems to
S2: be the issue here is the element of noise. You know,
S2: here's a performer in a packed theater with lots of
S2: people who have paid to see the show. And, you know,
S2: there's an element of noise that's disrupting the show. Now, look,
S2: I have been lots of places when my son was
S2: like that age. And they're very, you know, children are
S2: very hard to predict when they're that young. And I
S2: just do think the responsibility falls on the parent, that
S2: if you're in a situation where the baby, you know,
S2: you can totally be there, but once it starts disrupting people,
S2: the onus is on you to kind of like remove
S2: yourself from the situation and that calm the child down
S2: or do whatever you need to do and then like
S2: return I that's kind of like as far as it
S2: needs to go. For me, I think it's snowballed into
S2: this big kind of ideological argument pushed by a lot
S2: of different agendas that make it seem like a bigger
S2: issue than it is. Like ultimately, end of the day, mother, father, parent, grandparent, carer, guardian.
S2: If you're looking after a small baby in an environment
S2: where you know you need to be conscious of noise
S2: and other people's, you know, enjoyment factor, then like that's
S2: your responsibility. That's that's basically how I see it. Yeah, I.
S1: Think you're spot on that like it's a difficult conversation
S1: to have devoid of context because context matters to so
S1: many people around this, around the conversations and critiques of
S1: women breastfeeding in public. Right. Like this. So many of
S1: the opinion pieces that came in response to this, I
S1: mentioned Annabel Crabb before she she wrote a piece for
S1: ABC today, which she reminded a lot of people, you know,
S1: like David Kosh when he was the host, and sunrise,
S1: he went on this rant like 10 or 15 years
S1: ago about women breastfeeding in public and how they should
S1: be classy and not do it in people's faces. And
S1: this is like a big overarching issue as a society
S1: that we just don't seem to have been able to
S1: have good, smart, sensible conversations about. And so I think
S1: a lot of particularly women reacted and are like, oh,
S1: here's another man who was trying to tell a woman
S1: how to breastfeed, which is just not something we want
S1: to deal with. And I feel like I feel like
S1: partly why it's hard to have a sane conversation around
S1: is because there is broad, society, wide antipathy towards everyone
S1: involved in this. People kind of don't really like comedians
S1: or they're that's fun to sort of like hate and
S1: disrespect comedians. A lot of people don't think that their
S1: work deserves to be taken as seriously as other live performers.
S1: And then obviously on the other side, there's just a
S1: broad antipathy towards women and mothers in public spaces that
S1: has a long history in society. So when you bring
S1: both of these two things together, everyone kind of goes
S1: to their respective barricades and starts yelling at each other.
S1: I wonder how much of this conversation would be different
S1: if it wasn't. A live comedy show. Like a few
S1: people have pointed out, we interviewed a few different comedians
S1: about this for the for the paper yesterday, and it
S1: was really interesting, different perspectives. Jen Frick, a friend of
S1: the pod, she was like, look, I've had babies do
S1: this before, and it's part of my, you know, I
S1: could make it part of my routine or I try
S1: and find a more delicate way to deal with it.
S1: Michelle Lowry said, look, I just don't think babies are
S1: appropriate for a live performance space. Comedians are in dialogue
S1: with the audience. They're doing a show. They have to
S1: remain focused. It is potentially disruptive and disrespectful to the audience.
S1: We're trying to hear the gags. If they can't hear it,
S1: if anyone is making a lot of noise and things
S1: like that. And this third comedian made the point that
S1: if this happened at like Les Miz or Miss Saigon
S1: or another live performance, if this was actors on stage
S1: and there was a child crying who was stopping that
S1: performance from going ahead, it probably wouldn't be controversial to say, hey,
S1: can you please remove that sort of disruptive presence? Do
S1: you think there's an element to this that is just
S1: comedy is sort of seen as well. You're supposed to
S1: accept heckling, you're supposed to just deal with it. So
S1: just make it part of the showman.
S2: Yeah, I do think there is that. And especially because,
S2: you know, comedy is like famous for having hecklers and
S2: drunk people and so like, oh, you're happy to put
S2: up with all these things. But again, it's also, I
S2: think like that turns it into a different issue. Again,
S2: because if you're dealing with a heckler, firstly hecklers do
S2: often get like eject.
S1: Yeah, totally, totally.
S2: You know, and you can you can put that on
S2: the heckler because they're an adult making their own dumb decisions.
S2: And so like everyone is normally happy for a heckler
S2: to be ejected, whereas it's like this is the problem.
S2: It's an emotional issue on both sides. But I think
S2: also I guess what makes it tricky is that because
S2: it is so emotional, like you have these reporter then like, oh, well,
S2: after the exchange took place, then you had a bunch
S2: of like other people in the audience, possibly men kind
S2: of like saying, yeah, like, you know, get out, like
S2: and then it becomes this weird mob mentality. And then that's,
S2: you know, obviously I do not agree with that. And
S2: I wasn't there. I don't know exactly the tone in
S2: which I handled it. So perhaps he didn't handle it
S2: in the smartest, most gentle way possible. But at the
S2: actual root of the issue, do I think, you know,
S2: do I understand that? I think I do like, as
S2: I said, if it were me in the audience and
S2: I think you're absolutely entitled to go along with the
S2: knowledge that should your, you know, your baby get into
S2: a state where, like they're causing a bit of a disruption,
S2: then you have to like step out and deal with
S2: it and like you have to live with that decision.
S2: And I got to.
S1: Say, man, this poor baby was not doing its mum
S1: many favours. And when it did the media rounds on
S1: like my Monday or Tuesday night, um, the mum did
S1: these interviews on the project in A Current Affair and like,
S1: I'm sorry, this was the funniest bit about all of this. Like,
S1: obviously there are important parts of this conversation around how
S1: society responds and engages in these conversations. But just this
S1: mum trying to make her case that her baby wasn't
S1: that disruptive. While a baby started crying on the project
S1: and the host, Sarah, had to be like, hey, can
S1: you give it to your dad? This is like disrupting
S1: the interview. It's a sort of a pre-baby me.
S6: She's she's cranky right now. Okay, maybe she can go
S6: to dad just for a quick second, but, like, you know,
S6: a mum with three.
S1: And then on A Current Affair, I happened to just
S1: be watching a carnival live, and I'm like, oh, that's
S1: the lady from The Thing With the baby. And, um. Yeah,
S1: The Current Affair, uh, had to cut the interview short
S1: because the baby was, like, crying a lot. And I'm like, look,
S1: that's babies. Babies cry. I'm not saying that that's like
S1: a crime or anything like that. But as this poor
S1: mum and the poor baby were trying to make the
S1: case that it's all okay, actually getting cut off from
S1: the show, I think said a lot, but I think
S1: I think you said it uh, earlier and I really
S1: agree with this. It's like there's different conversations here. There's
S1: the specifics of like what happened at the gig and
S1: in a way, like, I feel like that's less interesting.
S1: What's more interesting is how everyone reacts to these things,
S1: whether that's men in the crowd who apparently were just
S1: being very aggressive and toxic, and men in comment sections
S1: and a lot of just like conversation around this, even
S1: though I also agree with you, I think, like, you know,
S1: there's a risk to bringing young children to this event.
S1: And I guess you should be aware that if they
S1: start being disruptive, the polite thing to do is to like,
S1: remove yourself. Uh, as frustrating as that might be, that's
S1: sort of life. That's the world. But the way that
S1: so many people seem primed and ready to just engage
S1: in like a culture about like where women belong and
S1: where children belong and like what the boundaries of this
S1: stuff are. That feels like a little bit gross. And
S1: I feel like that that part of it, I think,
S1: is something that keeps cropping up. Man. Like, this is
S1: not the first time we've had this, and it probably
S1: won't be again. But um, yeah, it was interesting how
S1: many comedians, the ones who are willing to talk, were
S1: pretty comfortable in saying, yeah, look, there's broader issues around
S1: like women and mothers and existing in public. But when
S1: it comes to a live performance space, it's a little
S1: bit disrespectful to not remove yourself once you're interrupting a performance.
S2: Yeah, I agree, and I mean, yeah, it still just
S2: feels crazy that it's almost like, have we not got
S2: enough going on in this country? Like, is that yeah.
S2: Are we that devoid of big issues that like this
S2: has become a dominant cultural story for the week? But
S2: I mean, perhaps not, but yeah, it is very funny
S2: that at seven months old this baby has. He's got
S2: a show reel that includes like RCA the project today,
S2: sunrise next month.
S1: Must have signed this kid up already.
S2: 100, 100. Yeah, this kid's doing, like, meet and great soon. Um.
S2: But yeah. Hilarious. Hilarious and odd story to begin the week.
S1: Yeah. Look. And I was gonna say, no, I'm not
S1: gonna do that. I was gonna do from one crybaby
S1: to another, but I won't do that. I think.
S2: You should. You've written it. It's a great segue.
S1: From One Crybaby to Another. The Tortured Poets Department, the
S1: 11th studio album from Taylor Swift. Even before this album
S1: came out, Thomas, we had been discussing just how relentless
S1: and overwhelming Taylor's presence was in the culture from the
S1: Eras tour, particularly here in Australia. But also it's streaming so,
S1: so popularly on Disney Plus to the Grammys, to Coachella.
S1: There was this concern even from people who enjoy her music,
S1: people like us, that it was all getting a little
S1: bit too much. We've been talking about Peak Taylor, and
S1: this is all before the actual reception of her new album,
S1: but that's all the stuff you talk about when you
S1: don't have new music to chew over this kind of
S1: meta conversation around Taylor. So the album is now finally out,
S1: 16 tracks, almost all of them produced by Taylor's now
S1: regular collaborator Jack Antonoff. Two hours later, as we mentioned,
S1: another 15 tracks this time most of them produced with
S1: her other regular collaborator, The National's Aaron Dessner. So all that.
S1: What we're talking about is 31 tracks on the Tortured
S1: Poets department. The anthology, as a second tranche of songs
S1: are collectively termed. Broadly speaking, I think it's fair to
S1: say that the album is very sonically familiar. It sounds
S1: a lot like Midnights, her last album. The synth is
S1: a constant presence to become a trademark of Antonoff production
S1: lyrically as well. I mean, this album doesn't feel like
S1: a revolution. It sort of feels like a throwback to
S1: earlier eras of Taylor dealing very specifically with heartbreak, evaluating
S1: her past and current relationships. I think one of the
S1: things that did take fans by surprise is how much
S1: of the album revolves around her longtime fascination with the
S1: 1975 Matty Healy. I guess you could say. I think
S1: fans are expecting this to be a Joe Alwyn breakup album. Instead,
S1: it's two dozen tracks about being ghosted by an edgelord
S1: rockstar who made a controversial appearance in a podcast formerly
S1: known as comedown. Like, that's a weird, that's a weird
S1: project for someone like Taylor Swift. Some might say. Um,
S1: and look, reviewing this album is complicated because Ken Taylor
S1: Swift sing. Of course she can. Can she write like
S1: compelling and interesting and fun melodies? Absolutely. Can she get
S1: a talented crew of people together to make a lot
S1: of nice sounding music? Absolutely. But when you've set expectations
S1: really high, when you announce an album, literally the second
S1: you're collecting the check for the last one at the Grammys,
S1: I think it's good and healthy for us to have
S1: a reasonable bar, and I just don't think that this
S1: album hits that bar. I mean, the music is very
S1: overly familiar. The melodies feel like we've heard them before
S1: on previous records, particularly Midnights. And in terms of the
S1: songwriting itself, I think if you're a Taylor Swift fan
S1: who wants to devour everything she says, like the gospel,
S1: and you want to build into this law that she's
S1: created and you want to join all the different dots about, well,
S1: she was photographed on May 18th in this town, and
S1: she wrote this song and recorded it. Then you're going
S1: to eat this album up for the sheer dump of
S1: her life information she's giving you. But I think for
S1: everyone else, this is a lot of songs, some with
S1: some very, very strange and tortured metaphors and lyrics that
S1: I don't think really work. And I think if you're
S1: going to give us 31 tracks, it's not too much
S1: to ask for a couple of like, genuine, solid hits
S1: as well. I think there's maybe one, if anything, like
S1: song on this album that will be like a hit
S1: that does well and gets ready to play and people bump.
S1: That's probably fortnight, the opening track, but that doesn't even
S1: really feel like a proper pop banger.
UU: I was supposed to be sent away, but they forgot
UU: to come and get me. I was a functioning alcoholic too.
UU: Nobody noticed one new aesthetic. All of this.
S1: There's heaps I want to get into regarding this album
S1: with you, Thomas. The quality of it, how it works
S1: for us, what it says about Taylor right now, all
S1: the meta conversations, but just initially would love your sort
S1: of first response to to the record.
S2: I think it is definitely 15 songs too long. Uh,
S2: is it was my initial response, like we've talked about
S2: it already, but the surprise release of the anthology, I think,
S2: only really stood to a lessen the impact of the
S2: original songs, and B highlight what was already kind of
S2: bubbling away in the background for a lot of detractors,
S2: is that we're in the era of like, actually too
S2: much Taylor and, you know, basically that's kind of was
S2: the issue going into the release of this album. Like,
S2: how much is too much? You know, we we were
S2: in Taylor like, we're in full Taylor Saturation mode. Anyway,
S2: she announced this album at the Grammys after cleaning up.
S2: It felt like a really it felt like it was
S2: coming very soon after everything else. She was, you know,
S2: in the middle of the year to, uh, it just
S2: people were concerned that saturation had peaked and then this
S2: only like seems to make that worse. You know, 31
S2: songs is just on a pure surface level, a lot
S2: of music for people to digest, like it's to sit
S2: there and listen to this out. You can't listen to
S2: it in one listen, really. It takes a really long time.
S2: But then on top of that, I guess, like it
S2: also plays into what I think a lot of people
S2: who are cynical about Taylor already thought is that she's
S2: trying to, like, gain the algorithm and the system here. Like,
S2: you know, these like Spotify rewards you. The more music
S2: you put out, the more like ways you split it up.
S2: And if you splice it and dice it in certain ways,
S2: then the algorithm rewards that. And I think people like, well, firstly,
S2: that's what Taylor's doing, but why does she need to
S2: do it? She's already the most successful dominant popular artist
S2: in the world. She could have released ten like ten
S2: tracks and it would still be played, like to fucking death.
S2: And so instead, she's kind of like feeding into what
S2: most people see as the biggest problem with, like, modern
S2: music and the way we devour it. My biggest issue
S2: was that in terms of the context that arrived in
S2: and then musically, it just felt like, yeah, you kind
S2: of touched on it, but like thematically it felt there
S2: was like no growth from anything. If anything, it was
S2: like she was regressing back to her old days. And,
S2: you know, musically, it just sounded like more of the
S2: same that we already had. And so there was just
S2: like on me, like first listen, which obviously took, you know,
S2: ten hours. There just wasn't much to, like, love.
S1: Yeah. It's a long listen, I wonder sometimes that the
S1: reaction to this, like the album in In the States,
S1: come at Midnight and then the follow up, the anthology,
S1: came in at 2 a.m. people who are listening to
S1: this album like three, 4 a.m., like delirious from exhaustion.
S1: And if you were on Twitter at that time or
S1: watching Social Reaction, it was just like it was a
S1: delirious reaction. And I wonder how much of that is
S1: deliberate is like, I'm just gonna pump my fans full
S1: of all these, like, juicy details about my life at
S1: 4:00 in the morning when they all desperately need to like.
S1: Have a blanket put over them and be nursed to
S1: sleep and just created this like super wild and fascinating
S1: sort of conversation. It's yeah, it is a lot. I mean,
S1: there's there's more I want to talk about in terms
S1: of the way she's marketing the album, but we'll get
S1: we'll get to that a bit later, I think. I mean, well,
S1: I feel like with Taylor often there are these two modes, right?
S1: There's the reputation era spinning album out of everything you've
S1: been through, position yourself as this perpetual victim who's been wronged,
S1: and make a bunch of music about your pain and
S1: and get vengeance on those you think have wronged you.
S1: And then more recently, there's been this folklore evermore mode
S1: where she's largely writing fictional narratives. She's using songwriting to
S1: craft these stories about things that may be influenced by
S1: things she's experienced, but there's these different characters and world
S1: she's building, and a lot of people think that that
S1: is some of her best and most compelling and thoughtful work.
S1: That shows the kind of growth as an artist that
S1: you were talking about before. I think, like Tortured Poets
S1: is very much like that reputation frame, like it's a
S1: throwback to an earlier mode of Taylor that like that.
S1: That's basically entirely what this album is. This album is.
S1: I just don't see how it makes sense to a
S1: lot of people unless they know the deep, intimate details
S1: about her relationships with Joe Alwyn, her long term on again,
S1: off again thing with Matty Healy, where she's at with
S1: with Travis and stuff. I feel like this is like
S1: an robberies of Taylor Swift. It used to be that
S1: you could enjoy her music on its own terms, and
S1: if you had an insight and you could decode these
S1: Easter eggs, you'd get this heightened meaning to it. But
S1: now it's like you need that to even walk in
S1: the door. Like if you don't understand all of the
S1: lore and everything that's going on in our life, a
S1: lot of the songs don't really make a lot of sense.
S1: That sort of ability. She had to write something that
S1: was obviously personal to her, but felt universal, I think
S1: is what's missing from this album. Does that make sense?
S2: Yeah, it does for sure. Like, I thought it was funny.
S2: Pitchfork who you know, whether or not you still put
S2: a lot of value in their reviews, that's up to you.
S2: But I thought their review was interesting and they said
S2: something I thought that really made a lot of sense.
S2: They wrote the Tortured Poets Department, Swift's 11th studio album,
S2: senses that widening gap between Taylor Swift, the artist, and
S2: Taylor Swift. The phenomenon. And I really feel that like it.
S2: It's like Taylor has now bought into the swift and universe, like,
S2: while also, you know, simultaneously being skeptical of it. She
S2: kind of like pokes fun at her own fans several
S2: times in the album, but it's like, yeah, now the
S2: the phenomenon of Taylor Swift is so all encompassing that
S2: it's no longer, like, expected that you can enjoy the
S2: music without being fully, you know, a Taylor Swift stand.
S2: You're supposed to know the rules and like, you know,
S2: winks of this universe. And it's like she's really writing
S2: to the echo chamber as enormous as the echo chamber is.
S2: But that's still then kind of creates this divide between
S2: the people who are like, really, really, you know, like
S2: engaged with what the rules. And, you know, everything of
S2: the Swift universe are versus people who just like, oh,
S2: she's a really famous artist and I like her. So yeah,
S2: it does seem really weird. And I guess the other
S2: thing that it's probably worth mentioning, you know, obviously everyone
S2: has said it's kind of bloated and stuff, but it's
S2: called the Tortured Poet's Apartment. We know that Taylor, like,
S2: you know, is a great lyricist and has like even
S2: all the marketing this has been driven towards. Like, I'm
S2: a wordsmith, I'm creating pop up libraries and that's my
S2: whole thing. But like, man, like I say this as
S2: someone who gets edited by you a lot, like she
S2: needs a serious editor. Like just because it sounds clever
S2: doesn't mean it sounds good. And, you know, I just
S2: there was a sense of Taylor being surrounded by yes
S2: people and writing anything that came to her mind and,
S2: and whether or not, you know, these metaphors work. And
S2: it just it was so overwritten to the point that
S2: sometimes it was distracting trying to keep up with everything
S2: she's stuffing into every single line. Yeah.
S1: And I think I think that's a really good point.
S1: I think it's clear that she has had a lot
S1: to say about this phase of her life, and she
S1: wanted to portal out, and she went to two very close,
S1: very comfortable, very safe collaborators in Jack Antonoff and Aaron Dessner.
S1: And they're not the kinds of people who I think
S1: are going to create a sort of healthy artistic tension.
S1: If she just work with other people like that. In
S1: the past, if she could have worked with with new
S1: producers on this one, but she went to people who
S1: she can be like, I want to write this song.
S1: This is what I'm thinking. Give me like that sort
S1: of synth bed with those electronic drums, Jack. Let's go.
S1: And so it felt very like she's just sprawling her
S1: words out there. And I know a lot of people
S1: say like, she's allowed to do it. And that's what
S1: I find a little bit frustrating about these critical conversations.
S1: Of course, she's allowed to do anything right. Like we're
S1: not saying that she should go to jail for this album,
S1: but we're allowed to also say, yeah, it's interesting to
S1: talk about an artist who can do so much, who
S1: has set expectations so high and ask whether or not
S1: this is her at the peak of her artistic powers.
S1: And I think for both of us, the answer seems
S1: to be no. And I think to your earlier point
S1: about the amount of. Information. You need to have to
S1: have baseline access to this record. You know what it
S1: reminds me of? This is going to sound a bit weird,
S1: but it's starting to feel like we're kind of like
S1: the Marvel Cinematic Universe and the Star Wars universe, as
S1: are at, which is that these things used to be
S1: anyone could go and see, see like Iron Man or
S1: like the new Star Wars film, and you'd be like, ah, cool. Like,
S1: I get it, these are the good guys. These are
S1: the bad guys. There's some cute little characters here, and
S1: that story makes sense. And off I go. And now
S1: all of these worlds are so massive. There's TV shows,
S1: there's cartoons, there's movies. And if you try and see
S1: a marvel movie now and it's like, oh, but you
S1: haven't watched like WandaVision, you haven't watched season two of Loki,
S1: you're not gonna understand who that character is in the
S1: Ant-Man and Quantumania or whatever. Like, it's just it's it's
S1: so dense. If you're a hardcore fan, you love it.
S1: And if you're a casual fan, you find it very overwhelming.
S1: And I kind of think that the world of Taylor
S1: Swift has gotten so big because she's been feeding her
S1: stuff for so long, it has become hard for normal
S1: people to engage with. And I hear, like, really smart critics.
S1: Joyner Robinson, who podcast for The Ringer Network, who I really,
S1: really like her, takes on this stuff. She has this
S1: line which she's like, you know, make Star Wars special again,
S1: we don't need a new show every six months or
S1: a new film every year. If you really want people
S1: to re-engage with this stuff, give them a break. Give
S1: them a bit of a reset. Think really carefully about
S1: what you want to do that is special, and then
S1: give that to them in 12 months or in two
S1: years time. And I wonder whether that is what Taylor
S1: needs to do next. She might say I don't care,
S1: like this album is going to break records. My fans
S1: eat it up. But I think from a critical perspective,
S1: from a perspective of what would make the most interesting
S1: and compelling art, I do think some space and time
S1: would be helpful.
S2: Yeah, for sure. And I think like, I mean, I
S2: get the feeling based on nothing other than, you know,
S2: a gut feeling that Taylor is someone that probably is
S2: sitting at home and. Definitely reading like the room on
S2: what people think of the album. I don't think she's
S2: someone who's like, whatever, I don't care. My fans love it.
S2: I definitely think, you know, she I could see her
S2: sitting at home reading The New York Times being like, hmm,
S2: the times didn't like.
S1: Well, let me, let me, let me give you an
S1: example as how right you are. Like, she's been retweeting
S1: every good review she's gotten and tagging the publication and
S1: the journalist who wrote it, including like, like her most
S1: recent one was Uproxx. You know, that weird sort of
S1: journalism website. She's retweeted this review and, like, tagged the
S1: journalist and Uproxx and, like, shared a lyric from a thing.
S1: So she's obviously across the kind of critical conversation she's reading.
S1: The bad ones, too, and is probably not sharing them.
S1: But it is. It's a really odd thing that's going
S1: on because I think she's seems to be rewarded. She's like,
S1: if you want me to shut you out to my
S1: 70 million followers, write a good review and I'll tag you.
S1: It's a very like 1 to 1 process she's in with,
S1: with critics. So yeah, you're right. She's very much part
S1: and aware of the conversation around this album.
S2: And it's so funny because that environment around Taylor has
S2: really infected or at least made an imprint on the
S2: critical response, like in terms of critics are aware that
S2: should they not enjoy the latest Taylor album, as in
S2: what is happening right now, that's going to be an issue. So,
S2: you know, we had like Chris Murphy from Vanity Fair,
S2: who's review wasn't amazing, and he put out this tweet
S2: that said, it's almost like if you produce too much,
S2: too fast in a brazen attempt to completely saturate and
S2: dominate a market, rather than having something important or even
S2: halfway interesting to say, the art suffers. That tweet went viral.
S2: And then he led her and made this joke about
S2: like him going missing. So like, and, you know, similarly, um,
S2: Paste magazine put up a pretty harsh review of the
S2: album and didn't put a byline on it, didn't identify
S2: the journalist, and then spoke about why they did that
S2: in the review. Because like, you will get fucking doxed
S2: by Taylor Swift fans. Um, because, you know, that's what
S2: they do. And so it's weird. We're living in this
S2: world now where even the critics are aware that if
S2: you don't like Taylor's album, that's going to be a
S2: problem for your publication. But, you know, we still have
S2: to engage with it and talk about it, but it's
S2: just like it sets these very strange framework for us
S2: all to discuss the album because, like, you're constantly kind
S2: of having to, like, double back on what you say
S2: and stuff. It makes everyone feel a little bit like
S2: uneasy or unsettled. And then I suppose at the same time,
S2: as you said, you've then got Taylor tweeting out the
S2: good reviews to like 70 million followers and like, who
S2: doesn't want that traffic? Uh, I don't know. It's a
S2: really strange environment to kind of discuss a big, important
S2: work in. I know.
S1: And you and I were talking before this podcast and like,
S1: I mean, we're being honest about how we feel about
S1: this album, but I think with so much of how
S1: you discuss big stars and their fandoms now. You're subconsciously
S1: a little bit pulling your punches because you're aware of
S1: like the hell you could go through for saying a
S1: certain thing in a certain way. And I think kind
S1: of like the age conversation, you know, because that has
S1: been and continues to be a very real strain of
S1: misogyny and how, like a lot of male critics discuss
S1: female pop, like, people are resistant to two guys talking
S1: about Taylor Swift, I feel like we're doing a decent
S1: job of trying to just engage with the music as
S1: it is, but there you kind of go into these
S1: conversation like, ah, shit, I'm going to say some negative
S1: things about this record. I'm probably going to get my
S1: DMs lit up, or if this gets clipped and put
S1: on TikTok, people are probably gonna make fun of us.
S1: I think as a critic, you try your best to
S1: remove yourself from that, that response if you can. But
S1: I think what's really interesting about Taylor Swift is talking
S1: about the fan reaction is part of the criticism, I think,
S1: because it clearly shapes her writing. Like there are songs
S1: on this album that are about Taylor Swift's fans. She,
S1: I think in some ways has made this record for
S1: her fans because she's trying to break streaming records, she's
S1: trying to do all of this stuff. She needs to
S1: turbocharge her base. And like I said, I just don't
S1: think if you're not a deep fan, I don't think
S1: this album works. If you are a deep fan, you
S1: probably think this is one of the best albums ever,
S1: because very rarely have you had this level of intimate
S1: detail about how she was feeling and where she was,
S1: and what she was doing with three of the big
S1: men in her life in the past few years Joe,
S1: Maddie and Travis.
S2: But then what I think is so funny about this
S2: conversation is that that is all true in theory. But
S2: then you have these like, I mean, look, essentially much
S2: of the album is about how fucking in love she
S2: was with Matty Healy, which is like the one relationship
S2: that Taylor Swift purest like, did not approve of. And you, man,
S2: you like type in Taylor Swift Matty Healy on Twitter
S2: and watch the fans like being annoyed at Taylor for
S2: dedicating so much airtime on the album to a man
S2: they didn't approve of, which is fucking crazy. But like it,
S2: it's so funny because there is an element of like, well,
S2: hold on a minute, this is an album for the
S2: fans with all of its like kind of winks and stuff,
S2: but also like, you've got these same fans who are
S2: the ones that are going to like back Taylor to
S2: the hilt, but they're not happy with like the content
S2: she's producing. It's such a strange like thing to be
S2: in the middle of.
S1: Are you across this this Reddit subreddit? Uh, Taylor neutral.
S1: That's that's blown up like, this is really interesting. It's
S1: like people who have historically been big Taylor Swift fans
S1: and started to be, like, less interested in her, either through,
S1: I guess, the oversaturation we've been talking about or the
S1: Matty Healy stuff. They've created this subreddit because they just
S1: weren't getting traction. On the main Taylor Swift Reddit called
S1: Taylor Neutral, where they're like, we don't hate Taylor, we
S1: don't love Taylor. We just want to have some honest
S1: conversations about her music and whatever. And that started to
S1: blow up. So it does feel like there is this
S1: growing part of her fan base that wants to engage with.
S1: I mean, the most interesting thing about this album, I think,
S1: are the tracks where she is taking aim at her
S1: fans for what they did and said to her around
S1: the Matty Healy thing, and I don't really want to
S1: get into the I resent the fact I've had to
S1: talk about Matty Healy so much already. Like, I just
S1: I don't care about the 1975. I don't understand that
S1: this kind of weird rock star, who feels like a
S1: throwback to the era where we all agreed we didn't
S1: want anymore, seems to have this chokehold on on lots
S1: of white women of a certain age. But whatever. We
S1: have to talk about him because he's part of this album.
S1: When the I guess rumors emerged that she was maybe
S1: dating him, a big chunk of her fan base, like,
S1: wrote this letter to her and said, you know, he
S1: said these problematic things. He's been on this controversial podcast.
S1: It's a bit of a weird guy. You shouldn't date him.
S1: And I think the song, but daddy, I love him
S1: is a pretty direct, like response to a fan. She's
S1: got things like, I'll tell you something about my good name,
S1: it's mine alone to disgrace. I don't cater to all
S1: these vipers dressed in empaths clothing. There's other lyrics in
S1: that track where she's saying to her fans, you pretend
S1: you care about me, but I'm not going to listen
S1: to you. You don't get to tell me what I
S1: do and how I live your life. It's so funny
S1: to see an artist simultaneously tell her fans to back off,
S1: but kind of have them on this leash at the
S1: same time.
S2: Yeah, it's like this absolutely crazy, like co-dependent relationship where
S2: they both need each other so much and resent each
S2: other so much. Maybe like her and Maddie here, we
S2: never know. But but yeah, it's it's just a really,
S2: really strange thing. And I mean, I know you said
S2: you don't want to get into it. I actually I'm
S2: happy to get into it because I think if anything,
S2: as you know, I mean, look, I'm a journalist, I
S2: love gossip, and I guess that's probably one of the
S2: things I did enjoy. Right from, from this album is, is,
S2: I guess, the voyeuristic elements. And like some of the
S2: decoding and, you know, like, fuck, man, I just, I
S2: couldn't help but think of Travis like being so depressed
S2: as he sat there listening to But daddy, I still
S2: love him when Taylor's like gushing about how I'm like,
S2: let's be honest, Matty Healy has obviously done an enormous
S2: number on her. She's got like some serious head noise
S2: about that relationship.
S1: I agree. I mean, I find that I find it
S1: so I mean and like and and this I guess,
S1: you know, it's a good thing to say. About the
S1: album that it's interesting to have an artist like her
S1: be so honest about how she felt about this guy.
S1: I find it bizarre because it's Matt Healy, but like,
S1: it's not my job to dictate how people feel about
S1: some people. She seems to have been a very long
S1: term fan of the 1975, and he's a very charismatic frontman,
S1: I guess you could say. So she sort of had
S1: this fascination with him for ten years and she lays
S1: it all out. But I agree with you. If you're Travis,
S1: it's probably better this way. Like, damn.
S2: The same thing with Joe Alwyn. They're like, fresh out
S2: of the slammer, you know, about him and basically calls
S2: the relationship a prison. So it's just like, oh, man. Brutal.
S2: But yeah, I think, you know, I guess if you
S2: are a Taylor Swift fan and you didn't approve this
S2: relationship and then suddenly, you know, two hours of the
S2: album is dedicated to her, really, like, I guess, digesting
S2: how that brief but obviously intense love affair affected her, then. Yeah,
S2: you're going to be unhappy. But I would say that
S2: it's then led to, uh, some of her strangest and
S2: weirdest writing that she's like, you know, Taylor is we
S2: both went and saw her show. Aside from the fact
S2: it was an amazing performance, you really get a feel
S2: for like, how impressive she is as a lyricist and
S2: how her writing lands in a stadium of, you know,
S2: 100,000 screaming people because she's got such a way with words.
S2: And then, yeah, this is like so much of this
S2: felt like my fucking year 12.
S1: Yeah. We're gonna, um, share some of our favorite weird
S1: lyrics a bit later on in this conversation, but I thought,
S1: you know, we've kind of had a had a broad
S1: conversation about the album conceptually, but maybe worth mentioning. Some
S1: of the tracks we do like and why, like Florida,
S1: which is the song with Florence Welch of Florida with
S1: three exclamation marks.
UU: And only the town. You get arrested. So you bet
UU: your life. Wait.
S7: Wait out the shit storm back in Texas. Florida.
S1: Florida. I like this track. Part of the reason I
S1: think why I like it is it's one of the many,
S1: I think, where Lana Del Rey's influence looms very, very large.
S1: And I think Taylor owes a great debt to Lana.
S1: I think she has for a while. I think she's
S1: very smart to cut LA an arena on the last record,
S1: as a bit of like, I'm, I'm sort of doing
S1: a lot of what you did before. There's actually like
S1: a few Florida references on this album, the track itself,
S1: but also on Fortnite, the opening track. Her and Post
S1: Malone are singing about Florida. I sort of got a
S1: bit conspiratorial on this one, and I wondered whether it
S1: was a political allusion, given that there is a presidential
S1: election later this year in Florida is a very famous
S1: swing state. But then I remembered it's Taylor Swift. And like,
S1: there's no there's no way she's doing that, an interview.
S1: She's just talked about Florida being this place that like
S1: criminals and other people wanting to get away, escape to
S1: kind of like Amy from from Gone Girl. But yeah,
S1: I enjoyed that one. Any any tracks you wanted to
S1: shout out?
S2: What's up with Post Malone, by the way? Just being
S2: like the go to feature guy.
S1: Yeah, Beyoncé and Taylor, the glue, bringing these two worlds together.
S1: I guess it's like he's just got this broad fan base, right?
S1: So it's like, no one really hates Post Malone. He
S1: sort of started as this rap singer who's now doing country.
S1: He's very flexible, like, why not have a post feature?
S2: I like Post Malone, but yeah, it was also.
S1: Work with Kanye. Interestingly, I wonder how many artists have
S1: worked with Kanye, Beyonce and Taylor Swift.
S2: Probably only posted. Uh, yeah. I also really like Guilty
S2: of Sin. I think that's kind of like a bit
S2: of a sexy track. And I actually like, I didn't
S2: like this at first, and I would. I will also
S2: say that the album has started to grow on me
S2: the more I.
S1: Listen to it. Yeah me too actually. I feel like
S1: maybe when we listen to it and it feels so
S1: overwhelming and there's all this conversation, it's like, this is
S1: way too much. And then after a bit of a break,
S1: listening to it again at the start of this week,
S1: I'm like, there's a bunch of tracks there like that
S1: are good tracks. I think this is the thing about
S1: this album. It's not like a terrible album, like you
S1: put it on you. You can't listen to it. It's
S1: the broad thematic reason for its existence. Feels a bit
S1: like unnecessary, but there's some there's definitely some good tracks.
S2: Yeah, for sure. I also quite like Down Bad.
UU: Did you really? Give me a. And a cloud of
UU: sparkling dust. Just to do experiments on tell me I was.
S7: The chosen one. Showed me that this.
UU: World is bigger than us. Then sent me back where
UU: I came from.
S2: For it feels very like. Yeah. Taylor reputation era like
S2: when she wants to like, go for it. She really can.
S2: But there are tracks I enjoy, but I think it's
S2: just more that I'm finding it hard to get past
S2: everything that is distracting about the albums.
S1: Yeah, and maybe if there was like fewer tracks, it
S1: would be easier to look at this collectively as like
S1: a really interesting project. I think, like there's some stuff
S1: on the anthology bit that I like, but there's some
S1: stuff that is just like ridiculous. There's the Kim Kardashian
S1: diss track. Thank you Amy.
S7: When I picture my hometown, there's a bronze spray tan
S7: statue of you and a plaque underneath it that threatens
S7: to push me down the stairs at our school. And
S7: it was always the same searing pain. But I dreamed
S7: that one day.
S1: It's so weird because that's a whole song where it's like,
S1: I've changed your name, but it's so obviously about Kim
S1: to the point where she's capitalized K, I and M
S1: in the title and she's singing like, you know, thanks
S1: for what you did. Like, I'll always be better for
S1: it now. And I don't even think about you. And
S1: it's like, this happened so long ago. Like, why are
S1: we still talking about this? Just just doesn't feel necessary.
S2: Yeah. And I just thought that was, like, a really weird,
S2: immature decision. It's like, so strange for someone like Taylor
S2: who is, like, obviously a very smart artist and does
S2: all these great things. And then it's like, why do
S2: you need to go and have this, like weird diss
S2: track with like, strange capitalization? It just feels a bit lame.
S2: It's like she can't escape her own, like, cringe factor
S2: and like that, that thank you, Amy song. Completely unnecessary.
S2: I don't know how someone around here wasn't like, should
S2: we scratch that? Also, I think in the back half
S2: of the album when there's like 50 tracks that are
S2: just people's names Peter, Cassandra, like, they're big skips from here.
S1: Yeah, fully. This is maybe the most blunt main thing
S1: I'm going to say I like I do get this
S1: feeling on even the tracks that we've mentioned that we
S1: like the overall. Emotional sense evoked for me is one
S1: of like Arrested Development. Like this is someone who, when
S1: they were writing these songs, when they were a teenager
S1: in the early 20s and then mid 20s, it's like, cool, man. Like, yeah,
S1: heartbreak is the biggest thing in the world, and you're
S1: allowed to write about it and you're allowed to write
S1: 100 songs about it if you if you like. But
S1: when you're at this stage in your career and you're
S1: just pumping out 31 songs about. What this, like weird
S1: rock star did to your heart? It just doesn't. Feel right.
S1: And like, I know maybe a lot of people listen
S1: to this, like women in their mid 30s or like, well, actually,
S1: that's like how we all feel. So you shut up
S1: and let us, like, emote. And I'm like, yeah, you're
S1: all allowed to emote and you're allowed to write songs
S1: about this again. I'm not trying to say that she
S1: should be like prevented from doing this, but it just
S1: feels unnatural that an artist who's been making this kind
S1: of music for two decades now seems stuck in the same.
S1: Space of being able to write very didactic about her singular,
S1: insular experience of heartbreak. As she experiences it, processes it,
S1: thinks about it. When she's done things like this before,
S1: when it's worked really well, it's like I said, her
S1: ability to take a singular experience, but write about it
S1: in a way that feels like it could relate to
S1: so many things. Well, this does not feel like the
S1: rest of the world exists. There's nothing broad or universal
S1: about this record. I think maybe that's because I'm not
S1: like a woman in her 20s and 30s. I don't know,
S1: but I've related to her other lyrics like I've been
S1: hot broken before. I hate to break it to you,
S1: but like, that's the thing that a lot of people
S1: go through. But this just feels so autobiographical that it's
S1: hard to connect with, and that just feels like an
S1: odd thing to experience from a singer at this stage
S1: of her life and career.
S2: Yeah, I think so, for sure. And I don't think
S2: it's unfair that we, you know, project these expectations on
S2: an artist that we all love and that has rightfully,
S2: you know, like battled her way to the top of
S2: the totem pole in pop culture and is easily the
S2: most influential and, you know, um, excitable artist in the world. And,
S2: you know, like this morning, for instance, I was driving home, um,
S2: and Love Story came on smooth FM. Great radio station.
S1: And you're like a Ritchie in the bay. You just, like,
S1: put the the pedal to the floor.
S8: Man.
S2: Like, that's a fucking great song. And I turned it
S2: up and sang along and, you know, it's such a
S2: great singalong song. But like, listening to I was struck
S2: by like, man, it's crazy, like, that's Taylor, I don't know.
S2: What was she like in her early 20s writing about this?
S2: Like fairytale romance, just like storybook obsession she has with, like,
S2: happily ever after in like, White Nights and, you know,
S2: this idea of perfect marriage. And, you know, that's all fine.
S2: And it made a lot of sense. And it was
S2: charming for this, like 20 something singer songwriter that still had, like,
S2: the country thing going on. I'm not saying she can't
S2: write about that anymore, but it's crazy when you actually
S2: dig into the lyrics on this album, this latest album
S2: about how much that fixation remains. Like she's still talking about, like,
S2: wedding rings and happily ever after and and like, that's it.
S2: And it feels like there's not been much evolution or
S2: if anything, there's been like a, you know, a devolution
S2: of devolution because, like, she's no longer even, like trying
S2: to expand her focus, but instead just like heading out,
S2: there's like there's so much like, you know, like fan
S2: generated songs that they want about, like getting married or
S2: finding the perfect love or anything like that. And it's
S2: just like, look, after a while, you do have certain
S2: expectations that come with being this, you know, incredible artists
S2: like people want people know how great you are, they
S2: want more from you. And it feels just like, I
S2: don't want to say lazy, but like when you get
S2: it and it's still okay, people are a bit like, okay, well, like,
S2: I guess, nice work.
S1: No, I completely agree. I think you put what I
S1: was trying to say in much better words. I feel
S1: like if anything gets, it's crucified. It's that conversation. But
S1: I think we've got to be honest about how we feel, man,
S1: if we can't do that, what are we doing here?
S2: I mean, yeah, I can't wait to get completely dark now.
S1: Um, we were talking before about how much she's promoting
S1: this album. This feels not totally new, like she's done
S1: this in previous album releases, brand partnerships, all this kind
S1: of stuff. But it's been less coming from her regularly.
S1: But but this time around, like we talked about this
S1: Spotify brand campaign, that library activation on the podcast last week,
S1: she's been doing ads for Spotify and Apple and Amazon.
S1: I mean, she's not content with every record that she's
S1: already got. She wants more. She wants to break more
S1: streaming numbers. What is the end goal here, man? Like
S1: like this isn't I mean, she also came back on TikTok.
S1: This is really interesting. Like universal pulled all of their
S1: music on TikTok as part of this negotiation to try
S1: and extract more revenue from the platform she signed to universal.
S1: But she has the streaming rights to a music so
S1: she can put it back on, which she did in
S1: the lead up to this album. A lot of people
S1: seem like not very happy with that because they're sort
S1: of perceiving it as crossing a picket line. Insofar as
S1: this universal negotiation, a lot of smaller and big artists
S1: are not able to have their music on TikTok. But
S1: she's just like, screw it, man, I want to like,
S1: go full throttle. Let's get as many streams as possible.
S1: And like we spoke last time, seems a bit diametrically
S1: opposed to her previous thoughts on streaming and and artist
S1: Renumeration like, what is the end goal here of of
S1: going so big and doing so much marketing?
S2: Yeah, I don't really know. I really don't know what
S2: is next now. Like we've had such a like exhausting
S2: run of, you know, like film and like era tours
S2: and music and award ceremonies and fucking the Super Bowl,
S2: just like every major like event or conversation or anything
S2: has been like somehow Taylor adjacent Coachella like. And so
S2: I don't really know what can happen or what needs
S2: to happen or what would be the best thing to happen.
S2: It's like I've been thinking a lot about like what?
S2: What actually what actually comes after this. Like, you know,
S2: she's not going to go on tour with this album, obviously,
S2: like right now. And I guess the only like, you know,
S2: if I'm putting on my Taylor Swift hat and doing
S2: some like, you know, amateur sleuthing, the only thing I
S2: can kind of gauge is that in I can Do
S2: It With The Broken Heart, which is actually a pretty
S2: good song. Who she. That basically is like a it's like,
S2: you know, it's her version of like dancing on my own.
S2: It's just kind of like really sad song which addresses
S2: basically it's like kind of in character. Her on the
S2: ears to are talking about being depressed on stage. And
S2: if anything, I was like, maybe that's a clue as
S2: to what is next. Like, she's come off this billion
S2: dollar record breaking tour, released a whole bunch of songs
S2: that maybe she just needed to fucking get out of
S2: her system and, you know, but she's directly addressing this, like,
S2: I guess, her own fatigue. And so perhaps there will
S2: be now, uh, a period of, like, downtime for her
S2: where she's like, you know, I've done tour, album, Grammys,
S2: everything here it all is. And like, you know, it's
S2: obviously taken a toll on her, I would say. And
S2: maybe there will now be like a bit of, like
S2: downtime for Taylor and for the rest of us.
S1: I think that's really insightful. I think that's probably what
S1: I think from a critical perspective is probably needed. Like take,
S1: take a break. You deserve it. Like you definitely deserve it.
S1: Quite a bit of scarcity. Live your life, enjoy your life,
S1: go on holiday. And if after that you want to
S1: write some music that feels relevant to you, please do.
S1: We're going to be excited to hear it again. You know,
S1: I think maybe there's also this sense of, you know,
S1: when you're at your peak, like like hit it, you know,
S1: like she's very aware, she's talked about this, she's written
S1: songs about this. The world does not have a great
S1: record for like continuing to support and pay money to
S1: like women when they reach a certain age. I think
S1: she's like, I'm at a peak right now in terms
S1: of the cultural attention being paid to me. I want
S1: to get that bag from every avenue possible, from touring,
S1: from streaming, from whatever, and like tap that out and
S1: then potentially, like, take a bit of a break and
S1: come back at a different phase. I think if that's
S1: what she does, great. I mean, if she just continues
S1: to release stuff like this, it'll probably sound okay like this,
S1: and her fans will eat it up, but I think
S1: it will over a number of years start to impact.
S1: I think her reputation as someone who doesn't just make
S1: really great stellar records, but as someone who's just doing
S1: that thing that, like Drake has been doing the last
S1: little while, you know, which is just releasing what sound
S1: like mixtapes. And I think that has diminished his reputation
S1: a little bit. I don't want that for her. No.
S2: And I guess the other thing I would say is
S2: I would like one of the worst songs in this
S2: album is So High School, which is about Travis. So
S2: should she should, you know, the worst happen and her
S2: and Travis Kelsey break up that breakup album will fucking suck. Uh,
S2: because I don't suspect that their love, as much as
S2: it seems very, very lovely, is, you know, kind of
S2: great writing material. If so, high school is anything to
S2: kind of. Yeah, yeah.
S1: Um, hey, before we wrap up the Taylor chat, should
S1: we share our favorite weird lyrics from this album? We should.
S1: We should also say this is like a part of
S1: the discourse around this album. Now, it's it's really interesting
S1: because Spotify and TikTok have introduced these tools lately that
S1: really encourage fans and listeners to treat songs like pull
S1: quotes like you can like, pull out your favorite or
S1: weirdest quote and you can share it on your social media.
S1: It's really interesting because I think artists you know, they
S1: want to write catchy hooks and stuff, but they also
S1: want songs to be like listened to in the context
S1: of the whole song. And when this album first came out,
S1: when there was a leak, in fact, a couple of
S1: days earlier, people got really stuck into like, individual lines,
S1: you know, like we we thought Charlie Puth should be
S1: a bigger artist and stuff. And people are like, that's crazy.
S1: When you listen to that stuff in context, you can
S1: understand the irony or whatever, and it makes sense. But
S1: it's it's kind of like just the nature of, I guess,
S1: these platforms that she's willing to play ball with and
S1: the way that fans want to dissect lyrics that it's
S1: easier than ever to pick out something that sounds very,
S1: very bizarre. And thankfully for us, there is quite a
S1: number of totally bizarre lyrics. Um, I'll share you my
S1: favorite weird lyric. Uh, my friends used to play a
S1: game where we would pick a decade we wished we
S1: could live in. Instead of this, I'd say the 1830s,
S1: but without all the racists. Now that's crazy. Now we
S1: should say the rest of that. Verse goes into describe
S1: like she's then ruined the game for everyone and you
S1: know she classic Taylor. She's just trying to like have
S1: fun and point things out. And she's ruining it for
S1: all of her friends. But that's crazy lyric because like,
S1: why the 1830s? There's nothing that feels very specific about
S1: that era that would make you want to go to it.
S1: It's like pre just pre-industrial revolution, but like like what?
S1: What sort of fantasies are evoked by that. Some people
S1: have said that's like around when Bridgerton seems to be set.
S1: So maybe that's what she's watching. But also she's like
S1: I'd say the 1830s, but without all the racists. I mean,
S1: does she think there were no racist? Now, this is
S1: a constant thing from every era. It's a very strange
S1: one for me.
S2: It is very odd. Um, and I think, like so
S2: many people have picked it out as one that's just like, okay,
S2: well you've like, again, probably needed a serious.
S1: Edit, but also she doesn't point out like, but without
S1: all like the deep sexism as well. Like, women weren't
S1: having a great time in the 1830s.
S2: I actually do think the bridges and things probably bang
S2: on because like, you know, that that all kind of
S2: sucks up. Um, my one is from the song I
S2: was just talking about. I can do it with the
S2: Broken Heart. Um, and it's I cry a lot, but
S2: I am so productive. It's an art. And almost as
S2: soon as I heard it, I was like, I can
S2: just see this being a fucking out of context. Instagram
S2: caption on people's like, April dumps where they've just got like,
S2: photos of like, all the shit they've done with their friends, like,
S2: you know, walking in the park and sunset photos or whatever.
S2: Like it's just. And this is such a funny thing.
S2: You kind of touched on it before and like, Drake
S2: does it as well. Like, these guys write lyrics. I'm like,
S2: I know, you know, that's going to end up on
S2: the internet. All that baked on a cake or some
S2: shit that I just saw, you know, like, you can just.
S2: And I've already seen it like 3 or 4 times, like, um,
S2: you know, different people on my Instagram, like sharing that
S2: one and being like, oh my God, like, so me
S2: or whatever. Uh, I also thought this one was really funny, uh,
S2: from Florida. And my friends all smell like weed or
S2: little babies.
S1: See, actually, I think that's funny. I actually really liked
S1: that one. I think, uh, people have sort of been
S1: taking the piss out of it, and it seems sort
S1: of bizarre, but it seems also like a relevant reflection
S1: when you're in your early or mid 30s where you're
S1: either with, like your friends who don't have kids and
S1: they're like partying, or your friends who do have kids
S1: and they're not partying and they're just looking up to
S1: their kids all the time.
S2: No, I actually quite like it too. I just thought
S2: it was funny and like, especially because, you know, having
S2: graduated from like, um, everybody being a sexy baby now,
S2: now we're at the weed a little babies.
S1: But it's it's a universe grows with this one.
S2: Correct. It's a, it's a funny kind of like, weirdly
S2: accurate snapshot of what it's like to be in your
S2: early 30s.
S1: My, um, my next favorite one. I think this is
S1: the one that seems to be referencing Travis Kelce. Uh,
S1: you know how to bowl I know Aristotle brand new
S1: full throttle. Touch me while you're bro's play Grand Theft
S1: Auto like I love a GTA reference in any song.
S1: That's great.
S8: So weird, isn't it?
S1: Does she? She knows Grand theft Auto. That's cool. You know,
S1: she's just one of those cool girls that wants to
S1: hang out with the fellas and watch them play video games.
S1: Who doesn't want that?
S2: But it's just the worst part is, I'm like, I
S2: can just see Travis, like, doing that while his brothers
S2: are playing Grand Theft Auto. And so it's just like,
S2: it's so weird. Is that the same song that mentions
S2: American Pie two? I think she's really living, like in 2006.
S2: This is another one that I actually found funny and
S2: also features babies from. But daddy, I love him screaming.
S2: But daddy, I love him. I'm having his baby. No
S2: I'm not, but you should see your faces. And I
S2: just thought that was actually really funny.
S1: It's actually. It's actually what, like, only she can pull off,
S1: which is a lyric that is about evoking fear or
S1: shock in the eyes of her fans, or listening and
S1: then telling them jokes on you right away.
S2: Yeah, and I do. I do appreciate that. Like, Taylor
S2: does have a good sense of like, what? You know,
S2: when to, like, take the piss out of herself and
S2: her fans and stuff. So I thought that was quite funny. But, uh, yeah.
S1: I have one more that I wanted to mention, and
S1: this goes to this theme of like, Weddings and Love,
S1: but this is just what I think is one of
S1: the weirdest. Like, it's like she can write about this
S1: idea way better and she's done it before. At dinner,
S1: you take my ring off my middle finger and put
S1: it on the one people put wedding rings on, and
S1: that's the closest I've come to my heart exploding. Now,
S1: like people have said, that's Matty Healy, kind of like
S1: love bombing her and, like, pretending to propose to it.
S1: But I'm like, you take my ring off my middle
S1: finger and put it on the one people put wedding
S1: rings on. That's not even a metaphor. That's just like
S1: a very dry description of something someone is doing. Um, very,
S1: very funny stuff.
S2: But that's the thing. When you release an album with
S2: like 600 tracks, then you just write yourself into a
S2: corner eventually and you just get fucking fed up. You're like, whatever.
S1: Exactly, exactly. So I mean, like I said earlier, those
S1: are fun things to pull out. I think a lot
S1: of them make more sense when you listen to them
S1: in the context of the song. And I think, as
S1: we were saying before, with a bit of distance from
S1: the release on Friday and the kind of discourse slowing
S1: down a little bit, it has been more interesting and
S1: enjoyable to just listen to this album. I don't think
S1: it's when I'll come back to a lot, but I
S1: also wouldn't be surprised if in like, you know, 12
S1: months time, there's a couple of tracks from this that
S1: are on like a lot of people's favorite Taylor Swift playlist,
S1: sort of, you know, list of songs.
S2: It is interesting that really, I would say universally the
S2: response has been a bit muted. Um, and perhaps that
S2: was what we all needed. Maybe even Taylor. Maybe this
S2: will be what brings us the next amazing work from
S2: Taylor Swift is that, you know, it wasn't just absolute
S2: like fawning over the what she's produced. And like, we
S2: continue to just, like, suckle at the teat of Taylor Swift.
S2: Maybe this will be like the catalyst for an incredible
S2: album of work that is different and doesn't feature, you know,
S2: Jack Antonoff trademark production and isn't just all like, you know,
S2: cute little lyrics and maybe it'll it'll be the start
S2: of something amazing. Um, because, yeah, I think we've, we've
S2: ironically come to the end of a very impressive and like,
S2: game changing era and perhaps, you know, what comes next
S2: will be even better.
S1: Love that. Take love that. Ultimately why critical discourse that
S1: is honest is important because that's how you progress art
S1: and society forward. Thomas baby reindeer. This is your impress
S1: your friends recommendation from last week.
S9: You say this woman stalking you?
S10: Yeah, like six months, maybe. Why did it.
S9: Take you so long to report it? I think she
S9: needs help.
S10: She comes to my work, my house. She sends me emails, like,
S10: all the time. Or any.
S9: Threatening torture. Yeah, I wouldn't say that's particularly threatening.
S1: It's gone ballistic since then. Thanks to you. I'm going
S1: to give you all the credit for this. Number one,
S1: most watched TV show on Netflix all over the world.
S1: Really in the past few days. This show. Man, this
S1: is like. Even though you described it like quite accurately,
S1: it was way more intense and like full on than
S1: I was expecting it to be. Kind of like a
S1: really hard watch at times. But can you remind us
S1: what this is about for people who maybe haven't caught
S1: the baby reindeer wave yet?
S2: It's a show by Richard Gad, who writes and stars
S2: in the show, and it's based on his own one
S2: man show that he took to Edinburgh at the 2019
S2: Fringe Festival. And it's basically based on his real life
S2: experience of having a stalker. Um, he was working in
S2: a pub in London. A woman came in one night and,
S2: you know, she seemed sad. He offered her a free
S2: drink on the house. And that began this kind of
S2: vicious cycle of being stalked by her while simultaneously, you know, this,
S2: I guess a bunch of other stuff in his life
S2: was unravelling. And and the one man show was the
S2: story of both his stalker and what happened to him
S2: in his personal life. And it kind of comes to
S2: this crazy, you know, like Stranger Than Fiction ending. The
S2: TV show, which has just come out on Netflix, is
S2: a retelling of that story with Richard Gadd playing himself
S2: and his stalker is is is named Martha in the show.
S2: And basically people have become enamored over the last week with,
S2: I guess that, you know, that real life element that,
S2: you know, based on a true story element. And as
S2: happens in these situations, it's kind of kicked off this incredible,
S2: I guess, movement. People are like, have you seen baby reindeer?
S2: Can you believe it? Is it true? What's true? Which
S2: parts of real. And it's still number one on Netflix now?
S8: I think it's really.
S1: Interesting because it's sort of like not pitched as a
S1: true crime show, but like it is essentially a true
S1: crime show. It's pitched this, this kind of like dark
S1: comedy thriller. And what's really interesting about it is I
S1: think the first episode is like kind of funny, and
S1: you think you're watching a comedy because it's about a comedian.
S1: But basically from then on in, there's not many jokes.
S1: It's just a pretty intense true crime thriller that is
S1: based on, like real crimes that that happened. It reminded
S1: me a bit of Michaela Coel I May Destroy You
S1: in the sense of someone who is writing about a
S1: traumatic incident that happened to them and how they sort
S1: of process a bit. Kind of unlike that. It's even tinier,
S1: more interior. It's a very small cast. It's a very small,
S1: like number of settings and things. And to really unusual
S1: TV show, like it's very, very good, but it's almost
S1: unlike many other TV shows I've seen where you just
S1: reach like a really dark point at the end of
S1: every episode, but you kind of feel compelled to keep watching,
S1: and it's very unsettling. I think by the end of
S1: it you don't really feel good, you don't really know
S1: how to feel, and it doesn't feel like the kind
S1: of show that would be so popular because it's not
S1: like funny and light and doesn't really have a clear
S1: message about, like, the world or whatever. I'm sort of surprised,
S1: it seems to have, you know, become so popular to
S1: so many people.
S2: Yeah, but we're also living in this age of, like,
S2: internet sleuths. And so it really plays into the the, like,
S2: armchair detective movement. And I think that's what's really been
S2: interesting about the past week because like, you know, in
S2: terms of like, what can you say about this show? Like, yeah,
S2: it's really amazing and everyone loves it. But what I
S2: found interesting is the how the response has, again, like,
S2: you know, we were talking earlier about like, just like
S2: how interesting it is to see how like people respond
S2: to big events. And this has thrown up another kind
S2: of challenge in that, you know, baby reindeer show based
S2: on a true story. And it's like you enter it into,
S2: you know, with the backing of Netflix to 300 million
S2: subscribers around the world. Yeah. And then you have people
S2: who inevitably are going to go digging. And so we've
S2: had Richard Gadd in recent days kind of basically take
S2: two because essentially, you know, at the end he he
S2: shows empathy for his stalker. She obviously has his real
S2: life stalker who we don't know. You know, it's never
S2: revealed in the show. She obviously has mental health issues.
S2: And as well, you know, as part of the show
S2: it's very triggering episode. But you know, Gad discusses sexual
S2: abuse that happened to him from someone who we understand
S2: is like a big figure in the comedy scene in London,
S2: a big producer and writer. Uh, and so people have
S2: naturally then been like, well, who are the real people
S2: who are the inspirations for these characters? And he's had
S2: to go on Instagram in the last week and say, look,
S2: I'm begging you, please don't go looking for these people. Like, because,
S2: you know, fans have like incorrectly fingered the wrong suspects
S2: and being like, oh, this, you know, he knows this
S2: producer who's, you know, big in the British comedy saying
S2: that must be the guy who assaulted him. And, you know,
S2: obviously they're getting these things wrong. And so he said, like,
S2: people are getting unfairly caught up in speculation. Please don't
S2: speculate on who the real life people could be. That's
S2: not the point of the show. But what is interesting
S2: is that critically, people have started to say, well, like,
S2: hold on a minute. Like, you know, when you do
S2: release something that is that uses the very like dangles
S2: the carrot of being based on a true story, you
S2: inevitably do invite people in to like, scratch the surface
S2: and do some digging.
S1: It's hard to have it both ways, you know? It's
S1: like you haven't changed enough details to make it. Like
S1: hard to find these people. And, you know, this is
S1: how people react. This is just how TV works. Reddit
S1: will go ballistic. There's lots and lots of Reddit threads
S1: where people think they found the person and they've named
S1: particular individuals, and he's gone on Instagram, like you said
S1: and said, like, it's not this person, but if you're
S1: that person and you're like, well, all these people are saying,
S1: it's me. He's saying it's not me. Why? Why am
S1: I even involved in this narrative? That would be, like deeply.
S8: Distressing and like.
S2: They do go to pains to be like, oh, we
S2: changed some really key details in the show to make
S2: it impossible for you to find. But that's just like,
S2: I mean, firstly, that's not really true. It's not.
S1: True. Like with the stalker, the Martha character, people have
S1: found her like social media posts and it's like one
S1: for one, like what she's posting and what she says
S1: in the show was the same thing.
S2: And I do understand because at the same time, this
S2: is his story, and he wanted to turn it into
S2: a piece of art and like, how much are you
S2: going to change until it becomes like completely unrecognizable? It's
S2: a very delicate balance. I mean, it's not his fault
S2: that we live in this crazy time when people are
S2: going to then like, pick apart your work. It's just
S2: it's just I guess that's what we've been. The most
S2: interesting thing for me over the last week is, like,
S2: you know, because I did like there's absolutely no denying
S2: the minute I finished the show, I sat on Google
S2: and I was like, who is the real Martha?
S1: I mean, this is one of those shows where you
S1: saw Wikipedia yet, like halfway through the show and I
S1: was like, damn, now I kind of know everything. So
S1: it's sort of ruined it for me. But it yeah,
S1: it's I think you're spot on. I think it's a
S1: gripping and like, very well-made show. And I mean, his
S1: acting is really good and a lot of the cast
S1: are really great. But I think you're right that a
S1: lot of its success is due to the kind of
S1: collapsing of the real world and the TV world, and
S1: that's something that just we are fascinated with at this
S1: current moment.
S8: But it's so funny.
S2: As well because I like Netflix, gave it no pro, no.
S1: Premiere at all. And I think that's also so interesting
S1: that it's like shot to number one without any kind
S1: of like backing. It's like they didn't really give people
S1: a heads up. It sort of started to get numbers
S1: and people were like, Holy shit, we should like interview
S1: Richard Gad. We should review this show. Really fascinating organic
S1: rise for this one.
S2: Yeah. Biggest, biggest word of mouth show I've seen in
S2: like 12 months, I reckon, for sure.
S1: And, Thomas, before we, um, get to our Impress Your
S1: Friend segment, just wanted to talk very briefly about another
S1: show that just wrapped up this week, one of my
S1: favorite shows over the past few months, Shogun on Disney Plus.
S1: We've talked about it a few times on this pod.
S1: I don't know how many people, uh, listening to this, uh,
S1: watching the show, so I don't want to go too
S1: deep into, like, the plot machinations or how it resolved
S1: or whatever, but just wanted to say that I think
S1: this was extraordinary show. I thought the ending was, like, incredible.
S1: I think every time you thought this show was going
S1: to go down an obvious path of, like showing us
S1: a big battle scene or like violence, like the Game
S1: of Thrones, half of it. It eschewed that and went
S1: for the more subtle succession style like character play and
S1: and sort of political intrigue. But one of the main
S1: things I thought watching this at the end is. This
S1: show is a really good endorsement of the non binge model,
S1: like what it means to release a really interesting show
S1: over the course of ten weeks, because you end up
S1: living with these characters for nearly three months. And so
S1: if they die or if they're in peril, you feel
S1: that I feel like way more emotionally than you do
S1: if you're watching like three Body Problem or even like replay,
S1: another show that we loved in one sitting, you just
S1: can't have that same emotional impact. And I know a
S1: lot in the show. You make fun of me for
S1: like pining for the good old days of TV. And,
S1: you know, I'm not saying this needs to be 20
S1: episodes or anything like that, but yeah, I just I'm
S1: struggling to think of any positives of the binge model
S1: these days. I think the whole point of TV was
S1: that it was great. You could watch it, you could
S1: talk about it. I know friends who were hosting final
S1: episode parties this week. Like that collective experience where you talk,
S1: you debate, you grow with these characters and something as
S1: simple as watching the same characters over three months just
S1: makes you connect with them in a way that you
S1: can't if you watch them over 8 or 9 hours.
S1: And yeah, I just really, really, really think Netflix needs
S1: to stop doing that and needs to just like give
S1: us the weekly release, man.
S2: Yeah, I agree, it's funny. I'm surprised that, like, I
S2: feel like Shogun has so clearly I mean, obviously it's
S2: a much bigger pool in the States, but Shogun has
S2: really struck a chord over there and all of the
S2: websites and, you know, the kind of big critical websites
S2: that we like and enjoy and stuff are doing, like,
S2: you know, bicep recaps and giving it the full succession treatment,
S2: it didn't seem to cut through as much over here. Like, again,
S2: based just on word of mouth, like I spoke to
S2: so many friends who I know were into that kind
S2: of TV and like lots of them, I would say
S2: dropped off Shogun despite giving it a bit of a go. Like,
S2: do you have an even myself? Like I was really
S2: into it. I've kept up to date, but I haven't
S2: been like, absolutely.
S8: I think, I think.
S1: It's harder because it's harder to talk to people about it.
S1: I think you're right. Like in Canada, in the US,
S1: this was the number one show for the past couple
S1: of months, and I don't know what it is like.
S1: Maybe it's placement in the Disney+ app. Like I don't
S1: have the numbers on top of my head. I don't
S1: know if Disney Plus is less penetration in Australia perhaps,
S1: than it does in North America, but yeah, it didn't
S1: hit as strongly here as I was. I was expecting
S1: it to, which is I think is a shame. If
S1: you're listening to this and you haven't given it a go,
S1: I think it's really worth watching. It's really good.
S8: Television.
S2: Yeah, great. And, you know, I will be looking forward
S2: to watching the finale and then you and I can
S2: talk about.
S8: It, at least to each other.
S1: Um, all right, let's wrap up with Impress Your Friends,
S1: where we recommend something we watch, listen to, read or
S1: otherwise consumed in the past week. Why don't you go first, man?
S1: What have you got for us?
S8: Uh, yes.
S2: Well, look, I thought, um, as mentioned earlier, we're desperately
S2: missing Melanie Kambouris. Um, she'll be back next week, for
S2: those of you who are also missing her. So that's
S2: very exciting. But I thought in her honor I would
S2: do a book. Um, I say her honor. She's probably
S2: cringing as she listens to this.
S8: She's not listening. She's not listening to this.
S1: She's gallivanting around Europe. She's not paying any attention to
S1: what we're doing.
S2: No, but I'll tell her that I mentioned during this.
S8: Just get forward.
S2: So this is a book? Uh, it's Caledonian Road by
S2: Andrew Ohagan. It came out a few weeks ago, um,
S2: April 4th. So he's, of course, the author of mayflies. Osmond,
S2: I think you will love this book. I don't know
S2: if you're across it yet. No I'm not. So do
S2: you know Andrew Ohagan, the author?
S1: No, I don't think so.
S2: Okay. So he's like, he wrote mayflies, which was great.
S2: He's nominated for the Booker. But this basically they're calling
S2: it like a state of the Union novel. So it's
S2: set in May 2021, in London, kind of like post-Covid. Uh,
S2: the protagonist is this guy Campbell Flynn. He's an art historian. He's,
S2: you know, billed as a celebrity intellectual, which I know
S2: really appeals to you. And he's basically like, you know,
S2: he's kind of like, yeah, a public intellectual who goes
S2: on talk shows and writes his, you know, popular columns.
S2: And he basically he's married really well. And then the
S2: book just throws us into this world where he is
S2: kind of like, uh, interacting with like, London gangsters and
S2: art dealers and Russian oligarchs. And basically we get access
S2: to Campbell's full interior world while also getting a snapshot of, like,
S2: modern day London. But it could really be like modern
S2: day Sydney. It's this like, you know, he he becomes
S2: like he gets engaged with this brilliant student of his.
S2: And it's like this really interesting snapshot of like public intellectuals, academia,
S2: you know, entitlement, privilege, people who are kind of like,
S2: born into this world of privileged people who access it,
S2: people who are adjacent to it. It's a really interesting book.
S2: Very funny. Uh, and yeah, it feels like very timely, uh,
S2: probably done a very poor job of explaining what it is.
S2: I'm only halfway through, but I'm absolutely loving it. So
S2: that's Caledonian Road by Andrew Ohagan.
S1: Now he's done a great job. I mean I'm compelled
S1: to read. I've just as you know, uh, finished reading
S1: Dilly Alden's uh, latest book, which you recommended to me
S1: ages ago, which I like. Your recommendation turns out pretty good.
S1: So I'm excited to add this one to the list. Um,
S1: mine is also a read. A shorter read, though. Uh,
S1: it's a Harper's Magazine article called The Life and Death
S1: of Hollywood by Daniel Bester. I mean, this is extremely
S1: in my wheelhouse. This is a really interesting, long essay
S1: about the state of Hollywood and Hollywood writers in particular
S1: through the lens of, I guess, labor relations, looking at the.
S1: Way that things are operating post the strikes, but also
S1: giving us a longer zoom look at the industry, kind
S1: of from the 50s on, and how different government policies
S1: around encouraging consolidation have changed. Who gets to make TV
S1: shows and films, and what artists are paid and why.
S1: The culture we consume now is a direct result of
S1: reforms made by Bill Clinton in the 90s, for example,
S1: to let TV networks buy up the companies that make
S1: TV shows. It might sound a bit dry and economic
S1: and esoteric, but it's written very compellingly. And if you
S1: ever want to like, think about like, why is this
S1: a streaming show and not a film? Or why is
S1: Netflix doing the binge drop model? For example? This essay
S1: does a really good job of explaining it through the
S1: perspective of actually, none of this is an accident. Like
S1: venture capital got involved in these businesses. The pandemic had
S1: this kind of impact, like the lack of labor power
S1: over capital here led to this happening. Obviously, all things
S1: that I care a lot about, but it's written in
S1: a very, very interesting way. If you care at all
S1: about how art and culture is made, would really strongly
S1: recommend this piece.
S8: Yeah, I think he.
S2: Sent it to me during the week and you were like,
S2: this is a must read.
S1: You should definitely read it.
S8: You really were.
S2: Trying to impress your.
S8: Friends.
S2: So I will, I will now that you've now that
S2: you've shared it with the pod, I will take your
S2: advice on board.
S1: I look, I made it through that podcast without, um, dying.
S1: And I've started to have coughing fits as we get
S1: to the end. So I think this is the perfect
S1: time to wrap it up. My man. Thank you so
S1: much for the conversations. See you next week. See you
S1: next week. This episode of The Drop was produced by
S1: Qi Wang. If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of
S1: The Drop, make sure to follow us on your favorite
S1: podcast app. Leave us a review or better yet, share
S1: the episode with a friend. I'm Usman Farooqui. See you
S1: next week!