1 00:00:08,470 --> 00:00:11,560 S1: Hey, I'm Osman Farooqi and this is the drop a 2 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,110 S1: culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age, 3 00:00:14,110 --> 00:00:16,299 S1: where we dive into the latest in the world of 4 00:00:16,300 --> 00:00:20,320 S1: pop culture and entertainment. He's not Dylan Thomas, I'm not 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,439 S1: Patti Smith, he's Thomas Mitchell. How you doin, man? 6 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,110 S2: I'm well, I'm well, we are here. The two of us. 7 00:00:26,110 --> 00:00:30,160 S2: The tortured legends department. Finally, finally back together. How are 8 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:30,520 S2: you going? 9 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:32,560 S1: I'm all right, man. I've been sick, uh, over the 10 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:35,350 S1: last few days. People can probably tell from my voice. 11 00:00:35,350 --> 00:00:38,710 S1: Doesn't sound 100%, but, um, you know, we'll do our 12 00:00:38,710 --> 00:00:41,260 S1: best in this episode. We'll muster through. 13 00:00:41,260 --> 00:00:44,889 S2: I figured that was just from screaming daddy, I love him! 14 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:48,940 S1: Oh, it's been a very big week for pop culture, man. 15 00:00:48,940 --> 00:00:52,450 S1: Taylor Swift released her new album, The Tortured Poets Department, 16 00:00:52,450 --> 00:00:57,190 S1: on Friday. It caused mass derangement from every quarter. Finally here. 17 00:00:57,190 --> 00:01:00,190 S3: Taylor Swift officially entering a brand new era with a 18 00:01:00,190 --> 00:01:01,390 S3: huge surprise upper. 19 00:01:01,390 --> 00:01:04,149 S4: Swifties are listening to a new sound this morning. Plenty 20 00:01:04,150 --> 00:01:07,210 S4: of new sound. In fact, Taylor's hotly anticipated new album, 21 00:01:07,209 --> 00:01:09,580 S4: The Tortured Poet's Department, 11th. 22 00:01:09,580 --> 00:01:14,650 S5: Studio album from the megastar, a self-proclaimed lifeline featuring 31 23 00:01:14,650 --> 00:01:17,800 S5: brand new songs across multiple variants. 24 00:01:18,220 --> 00:01:22,569 S1: Two hours after that, Thomas she released a second album, 25 00:01:22,569 --> 00:01:26,919 S1: another 15 tracks, causing further derangement. This time for me 26 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:32,229 S1: specifically because I had this wonderful coverage strategy laid out 27 00:01:32,230 --> 00:01:35,080 S1: for Friday and the weekend newspapers about how we were 28 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:37,900 S1: going to review and talk about this album. It was 29 00:01:37,900 --> 00:01:39,190 S1: all ready to go. It was all done and dusted 30 00:01:39,190 --> 00:01:41,919 S1: by like 4 p.m. and then the word comes through 31 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,410 S1: that there's a second album and basically ruined my afternoon 32 00:01:44,410 --> 00:01:47,740 S1: as I started to get unwell. But basically that's on me. 33 00:01:47,740 --> 00:01:50,140 S1: This this is not an episode about me complaining personally 34 00:01:50,140 --> 00:01:53,230 S1: about what this did to my work life balance, but, um, no, 35 00:01:53,230 --> 00:01:55,000 S1: that was that was a big day Friday. It's fair 36 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:55,510 S1: to say. 37 00:01:55,540 --> 00:01:58,030 S2: Yeah, I mean, she loves a surprise. The whole album, 38 00:01:58,030 --> 00:02:00,160 S2: like from the minute we learnt about it, has been 39 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,430 S2: kind of couched in the surprise element. So I guess 40 00:02:03,430 --> 00:02:06,670 S2: it kind of makes sense. But I do suspect that 41 00:02:06,670 --> 00:02:10,570 S2: the surprise element and the addition of an anthology has backfired. 42 00:02:10,570 --> 00:02:11,860 S2: But yeah, it's been a huge week. Yeah. 43 00:02:11,860 --> 00:02:14,230 S1: We're gonna we're going to talk a lot about this album, 44 00:02:14,230 --> 00:02:18,760 S1: but specifically, I think also going to discuss the build up, 45 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:22,330 S1: the reception among fans and critics. And I think something 46 00:02:22,330 --> 00:02:25,330 S1: we've alluded to before, Taylor Swift fatigue that seems to 47 00:02:25,330 --> 00:02:28,270 S1: be hitting a lot of people and what that means for, 48 00:02:28,270 --> 00:02:31,720 S1: I guess, the Swifty project going forward. And for people 49 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,090 S1: like us who who talk about her work and what 50 00:02:34,090 --> 00:02:36,400 S1: it means for the culture more generally, we're just going 51 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,460 S1: to talk briefly about the finale of Shogun, one of 52 00:02:39,460 --> 00:02:42,910 S1: my favorite shows over the past few months, and Baby Reindeer, 53 00:02:42,910 --> 00:02:45,790 S1: the Netflix sleeper hit series that you mentioned last week 54 00:02:45,790 --> 00:02:48,430 S1: on the Impress Your Friends segment. Seems like a lot 55 00:02:48,430 --> 00:02:50,230 S1: of people have jumped on it, and there's a lot 56 00:02:50,230 --> 00:02:53,860 S1: to discuss about that very, very, very interesting show. But 57 00:02:53,860 --> 00:02:56,320 S1: before we get to any of that, there's one story 58 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:58,900 S1: that's gripped the nation in the past few days. It's 59 00:02:58,900 --> 00:03:01,240 S1: got an Annabel Crab from the ABC writing about the 60 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,660 S1: culture wars again. Are you across this RJ Barker news? 61 00:03:04,660 --> 00:03:07,899 S2: Thomas I am across this RJ Barker news. It's crazy 62 00:03:07,900 --> 00:03:10,180 S2: that we're talking about RJ Barker in 2024. 63 00:03:10,180 --> 00:03:13,030 S1: It's so weird man. So so RJ Berkus, comedian who 64 00:03:13,030 --> 00:03:16,120 S1: I guess first became known to Australians from his appearances 65 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:18,940 S1: on The Glass House, like in the mid 2001 of 66 00:03:18,940 --> 00:03:22,149 S1: those American comedians that seem to have way more success 67 00:03:22,150 --> 00:03:24,880 S1: in Australia and has kind of toured here a lot 68 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,210 S1: and seems to be quite popular. I've never seen him. 69 00:03:28,210 --> 00:03:29,500 S1: Have you, have you seen his shows? 70 00:03:29,950 --> 00:03:32,049 S2: Yeah, I've seen him before. My, my kind of main 71 00:03:32,050 --> 00:03:34,180 S2: connection to RJ Barker is that I went out to 72 00:03:34,180 --> 00:03:36,280 S2: dinner with friends like, a few months ago, and I 73 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,070 S2: shampooed my hair right before dinner. It was really floppy, 74 00:03:39,070 --> 00:03:41,380 S2: and everyone called me RJ Barker the entire night because 75 00:03:41,380 --> 00:03:43,840 S2: he's got that really specific hair. That's a really. 76 00:03:44,110 --> 00:03:46,690 S1: Good context to this conversation we're gonna have. 77 00:03:46,690 --> 00:03:48,910 S2: Just so everyone knows that. But yeah, basically, he's one 78 00:03:48,910 --> 00:03:50,800 S2: of those American comedians. He lives here now. He's been 79 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:53,050 S2: popular forever. Um, you know, like a staple of the 80 00:03:53,050 --> 00:03:57,670 S2: festival circuit, does Melbourne Comedy Festival, every Sydney International Comedy Festival. 81 00:03:57,670 --> 00:03:59,530 S2: So yeah, he's one of those people that everyone just knows. 82 00:03:59,530 --> 00:04:01,780 S2: And fair to say, I think like an arch barker 83 00:04:01,780 --> 00:04:04,690 S2: show comes and goes most years without any kind of 84 00:04:04,690 --> 00:04:05,740 S2: ripple in the wider media. 85 00:04:05,740 --> 00:04:07,210 S1: It's a very good way of putting it. But this 86 00:04:07,210 --> 00:04:10,720 S1: time around, at the Melbourne International Comedy Festival, things got 87 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,750 S1: a little bit controversial. So Arj was performing over the 88 00:04:13,750 --> 00:04:17,350 S1: weekend at the Athenaeum Theatre in Melbourne. At one point 89 00:04:17,350 --> 00:04:20,200 S1: during the show, he started to hear a baby cry 90 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:22,510 S1: or make some noise. After a little bit of back 91 00:04:22,510 --> 00:04:25,450 S1: and forth with the mother, he he asked them to 92 00:04:25,450 --> 00:04:29,770 S1: leave the show. The mother went on radio on Monday 93 00:04:29,770 --> 00:04:32,560 S1: morning and sort of said, look, you know, it wasn't 94 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,289 S1: a great experience for me. She explained what happened from 95 00:04:35,290 --> 00:04:38,109 S1: her perspective. The baby was gurgling a little bit. She 96 00:04:38,110 --> 00:04:39,910 S1: said she was breastfeeding, so she needed to bring the 97 00:04:39,910 --> 00:04:44,650 S1: kid with her. It gurgled, it winged, but nothing super loud. 98 00:04:44,650 --> 00:04:47,200 S1: She said that Barker came over and she thought that 99 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:48,669 S1: he was joking when he asked her to take the 100 00:04:48,670 --> 00:04:51,460 S1: baby out, but eventually she realised he was serious and 101 00:04:51,460 --> 00:04:54,820 S1: she left along with a group of people around her. 102 00:04:54,850 --> 00:04:57,460 S1: Now there's a couple of different accounts of what happened. 103 00:04:57,460 --> 00:05:00,820 S1: Another attendee who was there had a slightly different take, 104 00:05:00,820 --> 00:05:03,340 S1: he said. It wasn't a little bit of gurgling. The 105 00:05:03,339 --> 00:05:06,250 S1: baby was actually crying. I was on the second level 106 00:05:06,250 --> 00:05:09,279 S1: up and I could hear it, they said. Khaled was distracted. 107 00:05:09,310 --> 00:05:11,770 S1: He was trying to tell a joke. He quite politely 108 00:05:11,770 --> 00:05:14,529 S1: stopped and said, would you mind? Could you please leave? 109 00:05:14,529 --> 00:05:16,930 S1: And she just sat there and the baby settled down 110 00:05:16,930 --> 00:05:19,390 S1: and a few minutes later it started again. So he said, look, 111 00:05:19,390 --> 00:05:22,270 S1: I was trying to be respectful in this situation, but 112 00:05:22,270 --> 00:05:25,720 S1: the baby was actually interrupting his his live performance show. 113 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:29,860 S1: So look, this obviously sparked a lot of conversation about 114 00:05:29,860 --> 00:05:32,919 S1: various things. I think this question of bringing kids to 115 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:37,000 S1: live performances, the right of mothers, obviously to participate in 116 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,700 S1: public life and do things, you know, mums are allowed 117 00:05:39,700 --> 00:05:43,180 S1: to do stuff. They don't just become housebound individuals once 118 00:05:43,180 --> 00:05:45,790 S1: they choose to have a child. You, Thomas, you're a 119 00:05:45,790 --> 00:05:48,909 S1: dad with a young child. What was your immediate kind 120 00:05:48,910 --> 00:05:50,589 S1: of reaction to to this one? 121 00:05:51,339 --> 00:05:53,290 S2: Yeah, it's a pretty crazy one. I mean, obviously, I 122 00:05:53,290 --> 00:05:56,020 S2: think it's worth mentioning that, you know, it's hard for 123 00:05:56,020 --> 00:05:58,570 S2: us as two guys to have this conversation. Um, we 124 00:05:58,570 --> 00:06:01,720 S2: miss Melanie Kimber so much, but especially in these moments. 125 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:03,910 S2: But no, look, I do think it's interesting more in 126 00:06:03,910 --> 00:06:07,330 S2: what it's revealed about the way a situation like this 127 00:06:07,330 --> 00:06:10,990 S2: kind of snowballs into so many different conversations. I think, firstly, 128 00:06:10,990 --> 00:06:14,530 S2: the issue is that it's been it quickly became this 129 00:06:14,529 --> 00:06:17,620 S2: like conversation around breastfeeding, which as far as you can 130 00:06:17,620 --> 00:06:20,350 S2: gather from like reading all the different like witness accounts, 131 00:06:20,350 --> 00:06:22,419 S2: that was obviously never the issue. I don't think anyone 132 00:06:22,420 --> 00:06:24,910 S2: in their right mind has an issue with breastfeeding in public, 133 00:06:24,910 --> 00:06:28,330 S2: and I'm kind of convinced enough that that wasn't the 134 00:06:28,330 --> 00:06:31,450 S2: issue for Rebecca, you know? And so the kind of 135 00:06:31,450 --> 00:06:33,640 S2: need to put that aside, like what really seems to 136 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:35,950 S2: be the issue here is the element of noise. You know, 137 00:06:35,950 --> 00:06:38,080 S2: here's a performer in a packed theater with lots of 138 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:40,330 S2: people who have paid to see the show. And, you know, 139 00:06:40,330 --> 00:06:43,210 S2: there's an element of noise that's disrupting the show. Now, look, 140 00:06:43,210 --> 00:06:45,340 S2: I have been lots of places when my son was 141 00:06:45,339 --> 00:06:47,740 S2: like that age. And they're very, you know, children are 142 00:06:47,740 --> 00:06:50,170 S2: very hard to predict when they're that young. And I 143 00:06:50,170 --> 00:06:52,960 S2: just do think the responsibility falls on the parent, that 144 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:55,240 S2: if you're in a situation where the baby, you know, 145 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:58,270 S2: you can totally be there, but once it starts disrupting people, 146 00:06:58,270 --> 00:06:59,800 S2: the onus is on you to kind of like remove 147 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,290 S2: yourself from the situation and that calm the child down 148 00:07:02,290 --> 00:07:04,570 S2: or do whatever you need to do and then like 149 00:07:04,570 --> 00:07:07,179 S2: return I that's kind of like as far as it 150 00:07:07,180 --> 00:07:09,610 S2: needs to go. For me, I think it's snowballed into 151 00:07:09,610 --> 00:07:12,370 S2: this big kind of ideological argument pushed by a lot 152 00:07:12,370 --> 00:07:14,230 S2: of different agendas that make it seem like a bigger 153 00:07:14,230 --> 00:07:19,360 S2: issue than it is. Like ultimately, end of the day, mother, father, parent, grandparent, carer, guardian. 154 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,210 S2: If you're looking after a small baby in an environment 155 00:07:22,210 --> 00:07:24,160 S2: where you know you need to be conscious of noise 156 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,760 S2: and other people's, you know, enjoyment factor, then like that's 157 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,760 S2: your responsibility. That's that's basically how I see it. Yeah, I. 158 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:33,880 S1: Think you're spot on that like it's a difficult conversation 159 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:38,050 S1: to have devoid of context because context matters to so 160 00:07:38,050 --> 00:07:42,070 S1: many people around this, around the conversations and critiques of 161 00:07:42,070 --> 00:07:45,580 S1: women breastfeeding in public. Right. Like this. So many of 162 00:07:45,580 --> 00:07:48,040 S1: the opinion pieces that came in response to this, I 163 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,770 S1: mentioned Annabel Crabb before she she wrote a piece for 164 00:07:50,770 --> 00:07:53,290 S1: ABC today, which she reminded a lot of people, you know, 165 00:07:53,290 --> 00:07:56,170 S1: like David Kosh when he was the host, and sunrise, 166 00:07:56,170 --> 00:07:58,179 S1: he went on this rant like 10 or 15 years 167 00:07:58,180 --> 00:08:00,700 S1: ago about women breastfeeding in public and how they should 168 00:08:00,700 --> 00:08:03,160 S1: be classy and not do it in people's faces. And 169 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:06,280 S1: this is like a big overarching issue as a society 170 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:08,140 S1: that we just don't seem to have been able to 171 00:08:08,140 --> 00:08:10,720 S1: have good, smart, sensible conversations about. And so I think 172 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,810 S1: a lot of particularly women reacted and are like, oh, 173 00:08:13,810 --> 00:08:16,750 S1: here's another man who was trying to tell a woman 174 00:08:16,750 --> 00:08:19,510 S1: how to breastfeed, which is just not something we want 175 00:08:19,510 --> 00:08:22,300 S1: to deal with. And I feel like I feel like 176 00:08:22,300 --> 00:08:24,190 S1: partly why it's hard to have a sane conversation around 177 00:08:24,190 --> 00:08:27,910 S1: is because there is broad, society, wide antipathy towards everyone 178 00:08:27,910 --> 00:08:31,210 S1: involved in this. People kind of don't really like comedians 179 00:08:31,210 --> 00:08:33,280 S1: or they're that's fun to sort of like hate and 180 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,010 S1: disrespect comedians. A lot of people don't think that their 181 00:08:36,010 --> 00:08:39,700 S1: work deserves to be taken as seriously as other live performers. 182 00:08:39,700 --> 00:08:41,920 S1: And then obviously on the other side, there's just a 183 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:44,949 S1: broad antipathy towards women and mothers in public spaces that 184 00:08:44,950 --> 00:08:47,410 S1: has a long history in society. So when you bring 185 00:08:47,410 --> 00:08:50,770 S1: both of these two things together, everyone kind of goes 186 00:08:50,770 --> 00:08:54,130 S1: to their respective barricades and starts yelling at each other. 187 00:08:54,700 --> 00:08:57,819 S1: I wonder how much of this conversation would be different 188 00:08:57,820 --> 00:09:02,229 S1: if it wasn't. A live comedy show. Like a few 189 00:09:02,230 --> 00:09:05,590 S1: people have pointed out, we interviewed a few different comedians 190 00:09:05,590 --> 00:09:08,560 S1: about this for the for the paper yesterday, and it 191 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:10,929 S1: was really interesting, different perspectives. Jen Frick, a friend of 192 00:09:10,929 --> 00:09:13,150 S1: the pod, she was like, look, I've had babies do 193 00:09:13,150 --> 00:09:15,580 S1: this before, and it's part of my, you know, I 194 00:09:15,580 --> 00:09:16,929 S1: could make it part of my routine or I try 195 00:09:16,929 --> 00:09:19,000 S1: and find a more delicate way to deal with it. 196 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,640 S1: Michelle Lowry said, look, I just don't think babies are 197 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,970 S1: appropriate for a live performance space. Comedians are in dialogue 198 00:09:24,970 --> 00:09:27,190 S1: with the audience. They're doing a show. They have to 199 00:09:27,190 --> 00:09:30,910 S1: remain focused. It is potentially disruptive and disrespectful to the audience. 200 00:09:30,910 --> 00:09:32,590 S1: We're trying to hear the gags. If they can't hear it, 201 00:09:32,590 --> 00:09:35,140 S1: if anyone is making a lot of noise and things 202 00:09:35,140 --> 00:09:37,660 S1: like that. And this third comedian made the point that 203 00:09:37,660 --> 00:09:40,360 S1: if this happened at like Les Miz or Miss Saigon 204 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,210 S1: or another live performance, if this was actors on stage 205 00:09:43,210 --> 00:09:45,310 S1: and there was a child crying who was stopping that 206 00:09:45,309 --> 00:09:49,840 S1: performance from going ahead, it probably wouldn't be controversial to say, hey, 207 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:52,809 S1: can you please remove that sort of disruptive presence? Do 208 00:09:52,809 --> 00:09:54,850 S1: you think there's an element to this that is just 209 00:09:54,850 --> 00:09:56,559 S1: comedy is sort of seen as well. You're supposed to 210 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:58,750 S1: accept heckling, you're supposed to just deal with it. So 211 00:09:58,750 --> 00:10:00,220 S1: just make it part of the showman. 212 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:02,650 S2: Yeah, I do think there is that. And especially because, 213 00:10:02,650 --> 00:10:05,260 S2: you know, comedy is like famous for having hecklers and 214 00:10:05,260 --> 00:10:07,390 S2: drunk people and so like, oh, you're happy to put 215 00:10:07,390 --> 00:10:09,430 S2: up with all these things. But again, it's also, I 216 00:10:09,429 --> 00:10:12,310 S2: think like that turns it into a different issue. Again, 217 00:10:12,309 --> 00:10:14,770 S2: because if you're dealing with a heckler, firstly hecklers do 218 00:10:14,770 --> 00:10:15,880 S2: often get like eject. 219 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:16,660 S1: Yeah, totally, totally. 220 00:10:16,660 --> 00:10:18,699 S2: You know, and you can you can put that on 221 00:10:18,700 --> 00:10:21,460 S2: the heckler because they're an adult making their own dumb decisions. 222 00:10:21,460 --> 00:10:23,620 S2: And so like everyone is normally happy for a heckler 223 00:10:23,620 --> 00:10:25,810 S2: to be ejected, whereas it's like this is the problem. 224 00:10:25,809 --> 00:10:28,660 S2: It's an emotional issue on both sides. But I think 225 00:10:28,660 --> 00:10:32,170 S2: also I guess what makes it tricky is that because 226 00:10:32,170 --> 00:10:35,230 S2: it is so emotional, like you have these reporter then like, oh, well, 227 00:10:35,230 --> 00:10:37,900 S2: after the exchange took place, then you had a bunch 228 00:10:37,900 --> 00:10:41,140 S2: of like other people in the audience, possibly men kind 229 00:10:41,140 --> 00:10:43,030 S2: of like saying, yeah, like, you know, get out, like 230 00:10:43,030 --> 00:10:45,520 S2: and then it becomes this weird mob mentality. And then that's, 231 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:47,350 S2: you know, obviously I do not agree with that. And 232 00:10:47,350 --> 00:10:49,510 S2: I wasn't there. I don't know exactly the tone in 233 00:10:49,510 --> 00:10:52,180 S2: which I handled it. So perhaps he didn't handle it 234 00:10:52,179 --> 00:10:55,180 S2: in the smartest, most gentle way possible. But at the 235 00:10:55,179 --> 00:10:58,210 S2: actual root of the issue, do I think, you know, 236 00:10:58,210 --> 00:11:00,970 S2: do I understand that? I think I do like, as 237 00:11:00,970 --> 00:11:02,860 S2: I said, if it were me in the audience and 238 00:11:02,860 --> 00:11:05,950 S2: I think you're absolutely entitled to go along with the 239 00:11:05,950 --> 00:11:09,609 S2: knowledge that should your, you know, your baby get into 240 00:11:09,610 --> 00:11:11,410 S2: a state where, like they're causing a bit of a disruption, 241 00:11:11,410 --> 00:11:13,000 S2: then you have to like step out and deal with 242 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:14,650 S2: it and like you have to live with that decision. 243 00:11:14,650 --> 00:11:15,070 S2: And I got to. 244 00:11:15,070 --> 00:11:17,589 S1: Say, man, this poor baby was not doing its mum 245 00:11:17,590 --> 00:11:20,350 S1: many favours. And when it did the media rounds on 246 00:11:20,350 --> 00:11:23,980 S1: like my Monday or Tuesday night, um, the mum did 247 00:11:23,980 --> 00:11:26,890 S1: these interviews on the project in A Current Affair and like, 248 00:11:26,980 --> 00:11:30,160 S1: I'm sorry, this was the funniest bit about all of this. Like, 249 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:33,580 S1: obviously there are important parts of this conversation around how 250 00:11:33,580 --> 00:11:36,850 S1: society responds and engages in these conversations. But just this 251 00:11:36,850 --> 00:11:39,940 S1: mum trying to make her case that her baby wasn't 252 00:11:39,940 --> 00:11:45,040 S1: that disruptive. While a baby started crying on the project 253 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:47,440 S1: and the host, Sarah, had to be like, hey, can 254 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,500 S1: you give it to your dad? This is like disrupting 255 00:11:50,500 --> 00:11:52,480 S1: the interview. It's a sort of a pre-baby me. 256 00:11:53,170 --> 00:11:57,130 S6: She's she's cranky right now. Okay, maybe she can go 257 00:11:57,130 --> 00:11:59,500 S6: to dad just for a quick second, but, like, you know, 258 00:11:59,500 --> 00:12:00,130 S6: a mum with three. 259 00:12:00,309 --> 00:12:02,230 S1: And then on A Current Affair, I happened to just 260 00:12:02,230 --> 00:12:04,390 S1: be watching a carnival live, and I'm like, oh, that's 261 00:12:04,390 --> 00:12:07,569 S1: the lady from The Thing With the baby. And, um. Yeah, 262 00:12:07,570 --> 00:12:10,510 S1: The Current Affair, uh, had to cut the interview short 263 00:12:10,510 --> 00:12:12,939 S1: because the baby was, like, crying a lot. And I'm like, look, 264 00:12:12,940 --> 00:12:15,340 S1: that's babies. Babies cry. I'm not saying that that's like 265 00:12:15,340 --> 00:12:17,680 S1: a crime or anything like that. But as this poor 266 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:19,060 S1: mum and the poor baby were trying to make the 267 00:12:19,059 --> 00:12:22,120 S1: case that it's all okay, actually getting cut off from 268 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:24,160 S1: the show, I think said a lot, but I think 269 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:26,650 S1: I think you said it uh, earlier and I really 270 00:12:26,650 --> 00:12:29,380 S1: agree with this. It's like there's different conversations here. There's 271 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,620 S1: the specifics of like what happened at the gig and 272 00:12:32,620 --> 00:12:34,960 S1: in a way, like, I feel like that's less interesting. 273 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,630 S1: What's more interesting is how everyone reacts to these things, 274 00:12:37,630 --> 00:12:41,230 S1: whether that's men in the crowd who apparently were just 275 00:12:41,230 --> 00:12:44,650 S1: being very aggressive and toxic, and men in comment sections 276 00:12:44,650 --> 00:12:47,350 S1: and a lot of just like conversation around this, even 277 00:12:47,350 --> 00:12:49,630 S1: though I also agree with you, I think, like, you know, 278 00:12:49,630 --> 00:12:52,270 S1: there's a risk to bringing young children to this event. 279 00:12:52,270 --> 00:12:54,490 S1: And I guess you should be aware that if they 280 00:12:54,490 --> 00:12:57,460 S1: start being disruptive, the polite thing to do is to like, 281 00:12:57,460 --> 00:13:00,760 S1: remove yourself. Uh, as frustrating as that might be, that's 282 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:04,660 S1: sort of life. That's the world. But the way that 283 00:13:04,660 --> 00:13:08,020 S1: so many people seem primed and ready to just engage 284 00:13:08,020 --> 00:13:11,500 S1: in like a culture about like where women belong and 285 00:13:11,500 --> 00:13:13,840 S1: where children belong and like what the boundaries of this 286 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,450 S1: stuff are. That feels like a little bit gross. And 287 00:13:16,450 --> 00:13:18,580 S1: I feel like that that part of it, I think, 288 00:13:18,580 --> 00:13:21,340 S1: is something that keeps cropping up. Man. Like, this is 289 00:13:21,340 --> 00:13:22,959 S1: not the first time we've had this, and it probably 290 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,810 S1: won't be again. But um, yeah, it was interesting how 291 00:13:25,809 --> 00:13:28,150 S1: many comedians, the ones who are willing to talk, were 292 00:13:28,150 --> 00:13:30,880 S1: pretty comfortable in saying, yeah, look, there's broader issues around 293 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:35,230 S1: like women and mothers and existing in public. But when 294 00:13:35,230 --> 00:13:37,420 S1: it comes to a live performance space, it's a little 295 00:13:37,420 --> 00:13:41,980 S1: bit disrespectful to not remove yourself once you're interrupting a performance. 296 00:13:41,980 --> 00:13:44,500 S2: Yeah, I agree, and I mean, yeah, it still just 297 00:13:44,500 --> 00:13:46,900 S2: feels crazy that it's almost like, have we not got 298 00:13:46,900 --> 00:13:48,880 S2: enough going on in this country? Like, is that yeah. 299 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:52,059 S2: Are we that devoid of big issues that like this 300 00:13:52,059 --> 00:13:54,820 S2: has become a dominant cultural story for the week? But 301 00:13:54,820 --> 00:13:56,410 S2: I mean, perhaps not, but yeah, it is very funny 302 00:13:56,410 --> 00:13:58,400 S2: that at seven months old this baby has. He's got 303 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,939 S2: a show reel that includes like RCA the project today, 304 00:14:01,940 --> 00:14:03,199 S2: sunrise next month. 305 00:14:03,380 --> 00:14:05,300 S1: Must have signed this kid up already. 306 00:14:05,300 --> 00:14:08,600 S2: 100, 100. Yeah, this kid's doing, like, meet and great soon. Um. 307 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:12,079 S2: But yeah. Hilarious. Hilarious and odd story to begin the week. 308 00:14:12,110 --> 00:14:14,630 S1: Yeah. Look. And I was gonna say, no, I'm not 309 00:14:14,630 --> 00:14:16,610 S1: gonna do that. I was gonna do from one crybaby 310 00:14:16,610 --> 00:14:18,770 S1: to another, but I won't do that. I think. 311 00:14:18,770 --> 00:14:20,750 S2: You should. You've written it. It's a great segue. 312 00:14:20,900 --> 00:14:25,700 S1: From One Crybaby to Another. The Tortured Poets Department, the 313 00:14:25,700 --> 00:14:30,290 S1: 11th studio album from Taylor Swift. Even before this album 314 00:14:30,290 --> 00:14:34,340 S1: came out, Thomas, we had been discussing just how relentless 315 00:14:34,340 --> 00:14:37,640 S1: and overwhelming Taylor's presence was in the culture from the 316 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:41,240 S1: Eras tour, particularly here in Australia. But also it's streaming so, 317 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,930 S1: so popularly on Disney Plus to the Grammys, to Coachella. 318 00:14:44,930 --> 00:14:48,170 S1: There was this concern even from people who enjoy her music, 319 00:14:48,170 --> 00:14:50,480 S1: people like us, that it was all getting a little 320 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:52,970 S1: bit too much. We've been talking about Peak Taylor, and 321 00:14:52,970 --> 00:14:57,290 S1: this is all before the actual reception of her new album, 322 00:14:57,290 --> 00:14:59,750 S1: but that's all the stuff you talk about when you 323 00:14:59,750 --> 00:15:01,310 S1: don't have new music to chew over this kind of 324 00:15:01,310 --> 00:15:05,240 S1: meta conversation around Taylor. So the album is now finally out, 325 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:09,350 S1: 16 tracks, almost all of them produced by Taylor's now 326 00:15:09,350 --> 00:15:12,950 S1: regular collaborator Jack Antonoff. Two hours later, as we mentioned, 327 00:15:12,950 --> 00:15:15,859 S1: another 15 tracks this time most of them produced with 328 00:15:15,860 --> 00:15:19,580 S1: her other regular collaborator, The National's Aaron Dessner. So all that. 329 00:15:19,700 --> 00:15:23,330 S1: What we're talking about is 31 tracks on the Tortured 330 00:15:23,330 --> 00:15:26,990 S1: Poets department. The anthology, as a second tranche of songs 331 00:15:27,020 --> 00:15:30,650 S1: are collectively termed. Broadly speaking, I think it's fair to 332 00:15:30,650 --> 00:15:34,100 S1: say that the album is very sonically familiar. It sounds 333 00:15:34,100 --> 00:15:37,250 S1: a lot like Midnights, her last album. The synth is 334 00:15:37,250 --> 00:15:40,610 S1: a constant presence to become a trademark of Antonoff production 335 00:15:40,610 --> 00:15:44,660 S1: lyrically as well. I mean, this album doesn't feel like 336 00:15:44,660 --> 00:15:47,150 S1: a revolution. It sort of feels like a throwback to 337 00:15:47,150 --> 00:15:52,220 S1: earlier eras of Taylor dealing very specifically with heartbreak, evaluating 338 00:15:52,220 --> 00:15:54,710 S1: her past and current relationships. I think one of the 339 00:15:54,710 --> 00:15:57,050 S1: things that did take fans by surprise is how much 340 00:15:57,050 --> 00:16:02,540 S1: of the album revolves around her longtime fascination with the 341 00:16:02,540 --> 00:16:05,270 S1: 1975 Matty Healy. I guess you could say. I think 342 00:16:05,270 --> 00:16:08,930 S1: fans are expecting this to be a Joe Alwyn breakup album. Instead, 343 00:16:08,930 --> 00:16:12,740 S1: it's two dozen tracks about being ghosted by an edgelord 344 00:16:12,740 --> 00:16:16,850 S1: rockstar who made a controversial appearance in a podcast formerly 345 00:16:16,850 --> 00:16:19,400 S1: known as comedown. Like, that's a weird, that's a weird 346 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,609 S1: project for someone like Taylor Swift. Some might say. Um, 347 00:16:22,610 --> 00:16:26,060 S1: and look, reviewing this album is complicated because Ken Taylor 348 00:16:26,060 --> 00:16:28,340 S1: Swift sing. Of course she can. Can she write like 349 00:16:28,340 --> 00:16:31,550 S1: compelling and interesting and fun melodies? Absolutely. Can she get 350 00:16:31,550 --> 00:16:33,859 S1: a talented crew of people together to make a lot 351 00:16:33,860 --> 00:16:37,670 S1: of nice sounding music? Absolutely. But when you've set expectations 352 00:16:37,670 --> 00:16:41,120 S1: really high, when you announce an album, literally the second 353 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:43,520 S1: you're collecting the check for the last one at the Grammys, 354 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:45,620 S1: I think it's good and healthy for us to have 355 00:16:45,620 --> 00:16:48,980 S1: a reasonable bar, and I just don't think that this 356 00:16:48,980 --> 00:16:53,120 S1: album hits that bar. I mean, the music is very 357 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:56,270 S1: overly familiar. The melodies feel like we've heard them before 358 00:16:56,270 --> 00:16:59,570 S1: on previous records, particularly Midnights. And in terms of the 359 00:16:59,570 --> 00:17:02,210 S1: songwriting itself, I think if you're a Taylor Swift fan 360 00:17:02,210 --> 00:17:05,570 S1: who wants to devour everything she says, like the gospel, 361 00:17:05,570 --> 00:17:08,030 S1: and you want to build into this law that she's 362 00:17:08,030 --> 00:17:11,210 S1: created and you want to join all the different dots about, well, 363 00:17:11,210 --> 00:17:14,270 S1: she was photographed on May 18th in this town, and 364 00:17:14,270 --> 00:17:16,580 S1: she wrote this song and recorded it. Then you're going 365 00:17:16,580 --> 00:17:19,190 S1: to eat this album up for the sheer dump of 366 00:17:19,190 --> 00:17:22,220 S1: her life information she's giving you. But I think for 367 00:17:22,220 --> 00:17:25,940 S1: everyone else, this is a lot of songs, some with 368 00:17:25,940 --> 00:17:30,020 S1: some very, very strange and tortured metaphors and lyrics that 369 00:17:30,020 --> 00:17:33,080 S1: I don't think really work. And I think if you're 370 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,990 S1: going to give us 31 tracks, it's not too much 371 00:17:35,990 --> 00:17:38,119 S1: to ask for a couple of like, genuine, solid hits 372 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,869 S1: as well. I think there's maybe one, if anything, like 373 00:17:41,869 --> 00:17:44,389 S1: song on this album that will be like a hit 374 00:17:44,390 --> 00:17:47,150 S1: that does well and gets ready to play and people bump. 375 00:17:47,150 --> 00:17:50,060 S1: That's probably fortnight, the opening track, but that doesn't even 376 00:17:50,060 --> 00:17:51,710 S1: really feel like a proper pop banger. 377 00:17:52,790 --> 00:17:58,100 UU: I was supposed to be sent away, but they forgot 378 00:17:58,100 --> 00:18:06,139 UU: to come and get me. I was a functioning alcoholic too. 379 00:18:06,140 --> 00:18:14,280 UU: Nobody noticed one new aesthetic. All of this. 380 00:18:14,670 --> 00:18:16,800 S1: There's heaps I want to get into regarding this album 381 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,080 S1: with you, Thomas. The quality of it, how it works 382 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,210 S1: for us, what it says about Taylor right now, all 383 00:18:21,210 --> 00:18:24,510 S1: the meta conversations, but just initially would love your sort 384 00:18:24,510 --> 00:18:26,909 S1: of first response to to the record. 385 00:18:27,060 --> 00:18:30,780 S2: I think it is definitely 15 songs too long. Uh, 386 00:18:30,780 --> 00:18:33,510 S2: is it was my initial response, like we've talked about 387 00:18:33,510 --> 00:18:36,480 S2: it already, but the surprise release of the anthology, I think, 388 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:41,070 S2: only really stood to a lessen the impact of the 389 00:18:41,070 --> 00:18:44,970 S2: original songs, and B highlight what was already kind of 390 00:18:44,970 --> 00:18:47,850 S2: bubbling away in the background for a lot of detractors, 391 00:18:47,850 --> 00:18:50,670 S2: is that we're in the era of like, actually too 392 00:18:50,670 --> 00:18:53,970 S2: much Taylor and, you know, basically that's kind of was 393 00:18:53,970 --> 00:18:56,460 S2: the issue going into the release of this album. Like, 394 00:18:56,460 --> 00:18:58,770 S2: how much is too much? You know, we we were 395 00:18:58,770 --> 00:19:02,730 S2: in Taylor like, we're in full Taylor Saturation mode. Anyway, 396 00:19:02,730 --> 00:19:06,450 S2: she announced this album at the Grammys after cleaning up. 397 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:10,020 S2: It felt like a really it felt like it was 398 00:19:10,020 --> 00:19:12,149 S2: coming very soon after everything else. She was, you know, 399 00:19:12,150 --> 00:19:14,730 S2: in the middle of the year to, uh, it just 400 00:19:14,730 --> 00:19:18,990 S2: people were concerned that saturation had peaked and then this 401 00:19:18,990 --> 00:19:21,570 S2: only like seems to make that worse. You know, 31 402 00:19:21,570 --> 00:19:23,850 S2: songs is just on a pure surface level, a lot 403 00:19:23,850 --> 00:19:26,340 S2: of music for people to digest, like it's to sit 404 00:19:26,340 --> 00:19:27,659 S2: there and listen to this out. You can't listen to 405 00:19:27,660 --> 00:19:30,750 S2: it in one listen, really. It takes a really long time. 406 00:19:30,750 --> 00:19:34,020 S2: But then on top of that, I guess, like it 407 00:19:34,020 --> 00:19:35,850 S2: also plays into what I think a lot of people 408 00:19:35,850 --> 00:19:38,910 S2: who are cynical about Taylor already thought is that she's 409 00:19:38,910 --> 00:19:42,090 S2: trying to, like, gain the algorithm and the system here. Like, 410 00:19:42,090 --> 00:19:44,850 S2: you know, these like Spotify rewards you. The more music 411 00:19:44,850 --> 00:19:47,070 S2: you put out, the more like ways you split it up. 412 00:19:47,070 --> 00:19:49,020 S2: And if you splice it and dice it in certain ways, 413 00:19:49,020 --> 00:19:52,590 S2: then the algorithm rewards that. And I think people like, well, firstly, 414 00:19:52,590 --> 00:19:54,359 S2: that's what Taylor's doing, but why does she need to 415 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:58,020 S2: do it? She's already the most successful dominant popular artist 416 00:19:58,020 --> 00:20:00,030 S2: in the world. She could have released ten like ten 417 00:20:00,030 --> 00:20:02,879 S2: tracks and it would still be played, like to fucking death. 418 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,250 S2: And so instead, she's kind of like feeding into what 419 00:20:05,250 --> 00:20:08,010 S2: most people see as the biggest problem with, like, modern 420 00:20:08,010 --> 00:20:11,040 S2: music and the way we devour it. My biggest issue 421 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,590 S2: was that in terms of the context that arrived in 422 00:20:13,590 --> 00:20:17,430 S2: and then musically, it just felt like, yeah, you kind 423 00:20:17,430 --> 00:20:20,130 S2: of touched on it, but like thematically it felt there 424 00:20:20,130 --> 00:20:22,980 S2: was like no growth from anything. If anything, it was 425 00:20:22,980 --> 00:20:26,430 S2: like she was regressing back to her old days. And, 426 00:20:26,430 --> 00:20:28,740 S2: you know, musically, it just sounded like more of the 427 00:20:28,740 --> 00:20:31,920 S2: same that we already had. And so there was just 428 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,169 S2: like on me, like first listen, which obviously took, you know, 429 00:20:34,170 --> 00:20:38,520 S2: ten hours. There just wasn't much to, like, love. 430 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,000 S1: Yeah. It's a long listen, I wonder sometimes that the 431 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,540 S1: reaction to this, like the album in In the States, 432 00:20:45,540 --> 00:20:48,660 S1: come at Midnight and then the follow up, the anthology, 433 00:20:48,660 --> 00:20:50,609 S1: came in at 2 a.m. people who are listening to 434 00:20:50,609 --> 00:20:54,600 S1: this album like three, 4 a.m., like delirious from exhaustion. 435 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,389 S1: And if you were on Twitter at that time or 436 00:20:57,390 --> 00:21:00,659 S1: watching Social Reaction, it was just like it was a 437 00:21:00,660 --> 00:21:02,880 S1: delirious reaction. And I wonder how much of that is 438 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,879 S1: deliberate is like, I'm just gonna pump my fans full 439 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,610 S1: of all these, like, juicy details about my life at 440 00:21:08,609 --> 00:21:12,300 S1: 4:00 in the morning when they all desperately need to like. 441 00:21:13,109 --> 00:21:15,510 S1: Have a blanket put over them and be nursed to 442 00:21:15,510 --> 00:21:19,980 S1: sleep and just created this like super wild and fascinating 443 00:21:19,980 --> 00:21:23,459 S1: sort of conversation. It's yeah, it is a lot. I mean, 444 00:21:23,460 --> 00:21:25,560 S1: there's there's more I want to talk about in terms 445 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,560 S1: of the way she's marketing the album, but we'll get 446 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,830 S1: we'll get to that a bit later, I think. I mean, well, 447 00:21:31,830 --> 00:21:34,590 S1: I feel like with Taylor often there are these two modes, right? 448 00:21:34,590 --> 00:21:38,790 S1: There's the reputation era spinning album out of everything you've 449 00:21:38,790 --> 00:21:42,300 S1: been through, position yourself as this perpetual victim who's been wronged, 450 00:21:42,300 --> 00:21:45,210 S1: and make a bunch of music about your pain and 451 00:21:45,210 --> 00:21:48,240 S1: and get vengeance on those you think have wronged you. 452 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,780 S1: And then more recently, there's been this folklore evermore mode 453 00:21:51,780 --> 00:21:55,979 S1: where she's largely writing fictional narratives. She's using songwriting to 454 00:21:55,980 --> 00:21:58,890 S1: craft these stories about things that may be influenced by 455 00:21:58,890 --> 00:22:01,620 S1: things she's experienced, but there's these different characters and world 456 00:22:01,619 --> 00:22:03,600 S1: she's building, and a lot of people think that that 457 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,810 S1: is some of her best and most compelling and thoughtful work. 458 00:22:06,810 --> 00:22:08,609 S1: That shows the kind of growth as an artist that 459 00:22:08,700 --> 00:22:12,030 S1: you were talking about before. I think, like Tortured Poets 460 00:22:12,030 --> 00:22:14,550 S1: is very much like that reputation frame, like it's a 461 00:22:14,550 --> 00:22:19,440 S1: throwback to an earlier mode of Taylor that like that. 462 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,109 S1: That's basically entirely what this album is. This album is. 463 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:25,490 S1: I just don't see how it makes sense to a 464 00:22:25,490 --> 00:22:29,840 S1: lot of people unless they know the deep, intimate details 465 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:34,250 S1: about her relationships with Joe Alwyn, her long term on again, 466 00:22:34,250 --> 00:22:37,310 S1: off again thing with Matty Healy, where she's at with 467 00:22:37,310 --> 00:22:40,010 S1: with Travis and stuff. I feel like this is like 468 00:22:40,010 --> 00:22:42,409 S1: an robberies of Taylor Swift. It used to be that 469 00:22:42,410 --> 00:22:46,160 S1: you could enjoy her music on its own terms, and 470 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,340 S1: if you had an insight and you could decode these 471 00:22:49,340 --> 00:22:52,669 S1: Easter eggs, you'd get this heightened meaning to it. But 472 00:22:52,670 --> 00:22:55,250 S1: now it's like you need that to even walk in 473 00:22:55,250 --> 00:22:57,320 S1: the door. Like if you don't understand all of the 474 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,770 S1: lore and everything that's going on in our life, a 475 00:23:00,770 --> 00:23:03,080 S1: lot of the songs don't really make a lot of sense. 476 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,650 S1: That sort of ability. She had to write something that 477 00:23:06,650 --> 00:23:10,219 S1: was obviously personal to her, but felt universal, I think 478 00:23:10,220 --> 00:23:13,340 S1: is what's missing from this album. Does that make sense? 479 00:23:13,430 --> 00:23:15,530 S2: Yeah, it does for sure. Like, I thought it was funny. 480 00:23:15,530 --> 00:23:18,020 S2: Pitchfork who you know, whether or not you still put 481 00:23:18,020 --> 00:23:20,750 S2: a lot of value in their reviews, that's up to you. 482 00:23:20,750 --> 00:23:22,880 S2: But I thought their review was interesting and they said 483 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:24,320 S2: something I thought that really made a lot of sense. 484 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,320 S2: They wrote the Tortured Poets Department, Swift's 11th studio album, 485 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,990 S2: senses that widening gap between Taylor Swift, the artist, and 486 00:23:29,990 --> 00:23:33,350 S2: Taylor Swift. The phenomenon. And I really feel that like it. 487 00:23:33,350 --> 00:23:38,150 S2: It's like Taylor has now bought into the swift and universe, like, 488 00:23:38,150 --> 00:23:40,910 S2: while also, you know, simultaneously being skeptical of it. She 489 00:23:40,910 --> 00:23:43,070 S2: kind of like pokes fun at her own fans several 490 00:23:43,070 --> 00:23:45,950 S2: times in the album, but it's like, yeah, now the 491 00:23:45,950 --> 00:23:48,860 S2: the phenomenon of Taylor Swift is so all encompassing that 492 00:23:48,859 --> 00:23:52,880 S2: it's no longer, like, expected that you can enjoy the 493 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,750 S2: music without being fully, you know, a Taylor Swift stand. 494 00:23:56,750 --> 00:24:00,050 S2: You're supposed to know the rules and like, you know, 495 00:24:00,050 --> 00:24:03,169 S2: winks of this universe. And it's like she's really writing 496 00:24:03,170 --> 00:24:05,960 S2: to the echo chamber as enormous as the echo chamber is. 497 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,780 S2: But that's still then kind of creates this divide between 498 00:24:08,780 --> 00:24:11,330 S2: the people who are like, really, really, you know, like 499 00:24:11,330 --> 00:24:14,449 S2: engaged with what the rules. And, you know, everything of 500 00:24:14,450 --> 00:24:16,790 S2: the Swift universe are versus people who just like, oh, 501 00:24:16,790 --> 00:24:19,640 S2: she's a really famous artist and I like her. So yeah, 502 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,770 S2: it does seem really weird. And I guess the other 503 00:24:21,770 --> 00:24:24,290 S2: thing that it's probably worth mentioning, you know, obviously everyone 504 00:24:24,290 --> 00:24:27,200 S2: has said it's kind of bloated and stuff, but it's 505 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,780 S2: called the Tortured Poet's Apartment. We know that Taylor, like, 506 00:24:29,780 --> 00:24:32,629 S2: you know, is a great lyricist and has like even 507 00:24:32,630 --> 00:24:34,670 S2: all the marketing this has been driven towards. Like, I'm 508 00:24:34,670 --> 00:24:37,340 S2: a wordsmith, I'm creating pop up libraries and that's my 509 00:24:37,340 --> 00:24:40,490 S2: whole thing. But like, man, like I say this as 510 00:24:40,490 --> 00:24:44,060 S2: someone who gets edited by you a lot, like she 511 00:24:44,060 --> 00:24:47,210 S2: needs a serious editor. Like just because it sounds clever 512 00:24:47,210 --> 00:24:50,060 S2: doesn't mean it sounds good. And, you know, I just 513 00:24:50,060 --> 00:24:52,700 S2: there was a sense of Taylor being surrounded by yes 514 00:24:52,700 --> 00:24:55,760 S2: people and writing anything that came to her mind and, 515 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,399 S2: and whether or not, you know, these metaphors work. And 516 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,160 S2: it just it was so overwritten to the point that 517 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,710 S2: sometimes it was distracting trying to keep up with everything 518 00:25:03,710 --> 00:25:05,330 S2: she's stuffing into every single line. Yeah. 519 00:25:05,330 --> 00:25:07,070 S1: And I think I think that's a really good point. 520 00:25:07,070 --> 00:25:09,770 S1: I think it's clear that she has had a lot 521 00:25:09,770 --> 00:25:11,780 S1: to say about this phase of her life, and she 522 00:25:11,780 --> 00:25:15,530 S1: wanted to portal out, and she went to two very close, 523 00:25:15,530 --> 00:25:18,919 S1: very comfortable, very safe collaborators in Jack Antonoff and Aaron Dessner. 524 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,200 S1: And they're not the kinds of people who I think 525 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,260 S1: are going to create a sort of healthy artistic tension. 526 00:25:24,260 --> 00:25:26,000 S1: If she just work with other people like that. In 527 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,730 S1: the past, if she could have worked with with new 528 00:25:28,730 --> 00:25:31,310 S1: producers on this one, but she went to people who 529 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:33,770 S1: she can be like, I want to write this song. 530 00:25:33,770 --> 00:25:35,870 S1: This is what I'm thinking. Give me like that sort 531 00:25:35,869 --> 00:25:38,720 S1: of synth bed with those electronic drums, Jack. Let's go. 532 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,560 S1: And so it felt very like she's just sprawling her 533 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,870 S1: words out there. And I know a lot of people 534 00:25:44,869 --> 00:25:46,429 S1: say like, she's allowed to do it. And that's what 535 00:25:46,430 --> 00:25:48,830 S1: I find a little bit frustrating about these critical conversations. 536 00:25:48,830 --> 00:25:50,810 S1: Of course, she's allowed to do anything right. Like we're 537 00:25:50,810 --> 00:25:52,699 S1: not saying that she should go to jail for this album, 538 00:25:52,700 --> 00:25:55,850 S1: but we're allowed to also say, yeah, it's interesting to 539 00:25:55,850 --> 00:25:58,730 S1: talk about an artist who can do so much, who 540 00:25:58,730 --> 00:26:02,840 S1: has set expectations so high and ask whether or not 541 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,689 S1: this is her at the peak of her artistic powers. 542 00:26:05,690 --> 00:26:07,250 S1: And I think for both of us, the answer seems 543 00:26:07,250 --> 00:26:10,430 S1: to be no. And I think to your earlier point 544 00:26:10,430 --> 00:26:14,700 S1: about the amount of. Information. You need to have to 545 00:26:14,700 --> 00:26:17,340 S1: have baseline access to this record. You know what it 546 00:26:17,340 --> 00:26:19,440 S1: reminds me of? This is going to sound a bit weird, 547 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,250 S1: but it's starting to feel like we're kind of like 548 00:26:23,250 --> 00:26:26,219 S1: the Marvel Cinematic Universe and the Star Wars universe, as 549 00:26:26,220 --> 00:26:28,680 S1: are at, which is that these things used to be 550 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,080 S1: anyone could go and see, see like Iron Man or 551 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,510 S1: like the new Star Wars film, and you'd be like, ah, cool. Like, 552 00:26:33,510 --> 00:26:34,980 S1: I get it, these are the good guys. These are 553 00:26:34,980 --> 00:26:38,310 S1: the bad guys. There's some cute little characters here, and 554 00:26:38,310 --> 00:26:40,410 S1: that story makes sense. And off I go. And now 555 00:26:40,410 --> 00:26:43,650 S1: all of these worlds are so massive. There's TV shows, 556 00:26:43,650 --> 00:26:47,760 S1: there's cartoons, there's movies. And if you try and see 557 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:49,980 S1: a marvel movie now and it's like, oh, but you 558 00:26:49,980 --> 00:26:53,820 S1: haven't watched like WandaVision, you haven't watched season two of Loki, 559 00:26:53,850 --> 00:26:58,200 S1: you're not gonna understand who that character is in the 560 00:26:58,230 --> 00:27:01,649 S1: Ant-Man and Quantumania or whatever. Like, it's just it's it's 561 00:27:01,650 --> 00:27:06,119 S1: so dense. If you're a hardcore fan, you love it. 562 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,690 S1: And if you're a casual fan, you find it very overwhelming. 563 00:27:09,690 --> 00:27:11,760 S1: And I kind of think that the world of Taylor 564 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,719 S1: Swift has gotten so big because she's been feeding her 565 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,990 S1: stuff for so long, it has become hard for normal 566 00:27:18,990 --> 00:27:23,550 S1: people to engage with. And I hear, like, really smart critics. 567 00:27:23,550 --> 00:27:27,360 S1: Joyner Robinson, who podcast for The Ringer Network, who I really, 568 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,060 S1: really like her, takes on this stuff. She has this 569 00:27:30,060 --> 00:27:32,670 S1: line which she's like, you know, make Star Wars special again, 570 00:27:32,670 --> 00:27:34,980 S1: we don't need a new show every six months or 571 00:27:34,980 --> 00:27:37,080 S1: a new film every year. If you really want people 572 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,960 S1: to re-engage with this stuff, give them a break. Give 573 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,510 S1: them a bit of a reset. Think really carefully about 574 00:27:42,510 --> 00:27:44,400 S1: what you want to do that is special, and then 575 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,199 S1: give that to them in 12 months or in two 576 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,760 S1: years time. And I wonder whether that is what Taylor 577 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,970 S1: needs to do next. She might say I don't care, 578 00:27:53,970 --> 00:27:55,980 S1: like this album is going to break records. My fans 579 00:27:55,980 --> 00:27:58,290 S1: eat it up. But I think from a critical perspective, 580 00:27:58,290 --> 00:28:01,710 S1: from a perspective of what would make the most interesting 581 00:28:01,710 --> 00:28:04,350 S1: and compelling art, I do think some space and time 582 00:28:04,350 --> 00:28:05,610 S1: would be helpful. 583 00:28:05,609 --> 00:28:08,250 S2: Yeah, for sure. And I think like, I mean, I 584 00:28:08,250 --> 00:28:11,129 S2: get the feeling based on nothing other than, you know, 585 00:28:11,130 --> 00:28:14,310 S2: a gut feeling that Taylor is someone that probably is 586 00:28:14,310 --> 00:28:18,650 S2: sitting at home and. Definitely reading like the room on 587 00:28:18,650 --> 00:28:20,690 S2: what people think of the album. I don't think she's 588 00:28:20,690 --> 00:28:22,850 S2: someone who's like, whatever, I don't care. My fans love it. 589 00:28:22,850 --> 00:28:25,189 S2: I definitely think, you know, she I could see her 590 00:28:25,190 --> 00:28:27,560 S2: sitting at home reading The New York Times being like, hmm, 591 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:28,489 S2: the times didn't like. 592 00:28:28,490 --> 00:28:29,659 S1: Well, let me, let me, let me give you an 593 00:28:29,660 --> 00:28:32,990 S1: example as how right you are. Like, she's been retweeting 594 00:28:33,350 --> 00:28:38,420 S1: every good review she's gotten and tagging the publication and 595 00:28:38,420 --> 00:28:40,970 S1: the journalist who wrote it, including like, like her most 596 00:28:40,970 --> 00:28:43,610 S1: recent one was Uproxx. You know, that weird sort of 597 00:28:43,610 --> 00:28:47,120 S1: journalism website. She's retweeted this review and, like, tagged the 598 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,300 S1: journalist and Uproxx and, like, shared a lyric from a thing. 599 00:28:50,300 --> 00:28:54,110 S1: So she's obviously across the kind of critical conversation she's reading. 600 00:28:54,110 --> 00:28:56,239 S1: The bad ones, too, and is probably not sharing them. 601 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,760 S1: But it is. It's a really odd thing that's going 602 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,780 S1: on because I think she's seems to be rewarded. She's like, 603 00:29:02,780 --> 00:29:04,940 S1: if you want me to shut you out to my 604 00:29:04,940 --> 00:29:08,330 S1: 70 million followers, write a good review and I'll tag you. 605 00:29:08,330 --> 00:29:12,680 S1: It's a very like 1 to 1 process she's in with, 606 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,660 S1: with critics. So yeah, you're right. She's very much part 607 00:29:14,660 --> 00:29:16,910 S1: and aware of the conversation around this album. 608 00:29:17,030 --> 00:29:20,450 S2: And it's so funny because that environment around Taylor has 609 00:29:20,450 --> 00:29:24,530 S2: really infected or at least made an imprint on the 610 00:29:24,530 --> 00:29:28,790 S2: critical response, like in terms of critics are aware that 611 00:29:29,150 --> 00:29:32,750 S2: should they not enjoy the latest Taylor album, as in 612 00:29:32,750 --> 00:29:35,720 S2: what is happening right now, that's going to be an issue. So, 613 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,180 S2: you know, we had like Chris Murphy from Vanity Fair, 614 00:29:38,180 --> 00:29:40,340 S2: who's review wasn't amazing, and he put out this tweet 615 00:29:40,340 --> 00:29:42,380 S2: that said, it's almost like if you produce too much, 616 00:29:42,380 --> 00:29:44,780 S2: too fast in a brazen attempt to completely saturate and 617 00:29:44,780 --> 00:29:47,480 S2: dominate a market, rather than having something important or even 618 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,200 S2: halfway interesting to say, the art suffers. That tweet went viral. 619 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:52,760 S2: And then he led her and made this joke about 620 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,870 S2: like him going missing. So like, and, you know, similarly, um, 621 00:29:56,870 --> 00:29:59,300 S2: Paste magazine put up a pretty harsh review of the 622 00:29:59,300 --> 00:30:02,420 S2: album and didn't put a byline on it, didn't identify 623 00:30:02,420 --> 00:30:04,670 S2: the journalist, and then spoke about why they did that 624 00:30:04,670 --> 00:30:07,340 S2: in the review. Because like, you will get fucking doxed 625 00:30:07,340 --> 00:30:10,219 S2: by Taylor Swift fans. Um, because, you know, that's what 626 00:30:10,220 --> 00:30:12,320 S2: they do. And so it's weird. We're living in this 627 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,530 S2: world now where even the critics are aware that if 628 00:30:15,530 --> 00:30:17,570 S2: you don't like Taylor's album, that's going to be a 629 00:30:17,570 --> 00:30:19,850 S2: problem for your publication. But, you know, we still have 630 00:30:19,850 --> 00:30:21,530 S2: to engage with it and talk about it, but it's 631 00:30:21,710 --> 00:30:24,860 S2: just like it sets these very strange framework for us 632 00:30:24,860 --> 00:30:27,920 S2: all to discuss the album because, like, you're constantly kind 633 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:29,780 S2: of having to, like, double back on what you say 634 00:30:29,780 --> 00:30:32,510 S2: and stuff. It makes everyone feel a little bit like 635 00:30:32,510 --> 00:30:35,270 S2: uneasy or unsettled. And then I suppose at the same time, 636 00:30:35,270 --> 00:30:36,770 S2: as you said, you've then got Taylor tweeting out the 637 00:30:36,770 --> 00:30:39,350 S2: good reviews to like 70 million followers and like, who 638 00:30:39,350 --> 00:30:41,450 S2: doesn't want that traffic? Uh, I don't know. It's a 639 00:30:41,450 --> 00:30:45,140 S2: really strange environment to kind of discuss a big, important 640 00:30:45,140 --> 00:30:46,220 S2: work in. I know. 641 00:30:46,220 --> 00:30:49,910 S1: And you and I were talking before this podcast and like, 642 00:30:49,910 --> 00:30:52,250 S1: I mean, we're being honest about how we feel about 643 00:30:52,250 --> 00:30:54,380 S1: this album, but I think with so much of how 644 00:30:54,380 --> 00:31:00,530 S1: you discuss big stars and their fandoms now. You're subconsciously 645 00:31:00,530 --> 00:31:03,530 S1: a little bit pulling your punches because you're aware of 646 00:31:03,530 --> 00:31:06,979 S1: like the hell you could go through for saying a 647 00:31:06,980 --> 00:31:09,740 S1: certain thing in a certain way. And I think kind 648 00:31:09,740 --> 00:31:12,560 S1: of like the age conversation, you know, because that has 649 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,380 S1: been and continues to be a very real strain of 650 00:31:15,380 --> 00:31:18,230 S1: misogyny and how, like a lot of male critics discuss 651 00:31:18,620 --> 00:31:22,970 S1: female pop, like, people are resistant to two guys talking 652 00:31:22,970 --> 00:31:25,370 S1: about Taylor Swift, I feel like we're doing a decent 653 00:31:25,370 --> 00:31:27,290 S1: job of trying to just engage with the music as 654 00:31:27,290 --> 00:31:29,960 S1: it is, but there you kind of go into these 655 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,000 S1: conversation like, ah, shit, I'm going to say some negative 656 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,760 S1: things about this record. I'm probably going to get my 657 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,580 S1: DMs lit up, or if this gets clipped and put 658 00:31:37,580 --> 00:31:39,740 S1: on TikTok, people are probably gonna make fun of us. 659 00:31:39,740 --> 00:31:42,200 S1: I think as a critic, you try your best to 660 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,310 S1: remove yourself from that, that response if you can. But 661 00:31:46,310 --> 00:31:48,530 S1: I think what's really interesting about Taylor Swift is talking 662 00:31:48,530 --> 00:31:51,830 S1: about the fan reaction is part of the criticism, I think, 663 00:31:51,830 --> 00:31:56,270 S1: because it clearly shapes her writing. Like there are songs 664 00:31:56,270 --> 00:32:00,230 S1: on this album that are about Taylor Swift's fans. She, 665 00:32:00,230 --> 00:32:03,860 S1: I think in some ways has made this record for 666 00:32:03,860 --> 00:32:08,000 S1: her fans because she's trying to break streaming records, she's 667 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:09,650 S1: trying to do all of this stuff. She needs to 668 00:32:09,650 --> 00:32:12,950 S1: turbocharge her base. And like I said, I just don't 669 00:32:12,950 --> 00:32:14,930 S1: think if you're not a deep fan, I don't think 670 00:32:14,930 --> 00:32:17,240 S1: this album works. If you are a deep fan, you 671 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,130 S1: probably think this is one of the best albums ever, 672 00:32:19,130 --> 00:32:22,820 S1: because very rarely have you had this level of intimate 673 00:32:22,820 --> 00:32:25,130 S1: detail about how she was feeling and where she was, 674 00:32:25,130 --> 00:32:28,730 S1: and what she was doing with three of the big 675 00:32:28,730 --> 00:32:31,880 S1: men in her life in the past few years Joe, 676 00:32:31,910 --> 00:32:34,280 S1: Maddie and Travis. 677 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:35,900 S2: But then what I think is so funny about this 678 00:32:35,900 --> 00:32:38,780 S2: conversation is that that is all true in theory. But 679 00:32:38,780 --> 00:32:41,990 S2: then you have these like, I mean, look, essentially much 680 00:32:41,990 --> 00:32:44,060 S2: of the album is about how fucking in love she 681 00:32:44,060 --> 00:32:46,670 S2: was with Matty Healy, which is like the one relationship 682 00:32:46,670 --> 00:32:49,970 S2: that Taylor Swift purest like, did not approve of. And you, man, 683 00:32:49,970 --> 00:32:53,900 S2: you like type in Taylor Swift Matty Healy on Twitter 684 00:32:53,900 --> 00:32:57,320 S2: and watch the fans like being annoyed at Taylor for 685 00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,390 S2: dedicating so much airtime on the album to a man 686 00:32:59,390 --> 00:33:04,400 S2: they didn't approve of, which is fucking crazy. But like it, 687 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,610 S2: it's so funny because there is an element of like, well, 688 00:33:07,610 --> 00:33:09,080 S2: hold on a minute, this is an album for the 689 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,270 S2: fans with all of its like kind of winks and stuff, 690 00:33:11,270 --> 00:33:14,810 S2: but also like, you've got these same fans who are 691 00:33:14,810 --> 00:33:16,340 S2: the ones that are going to like back Taylor to 692 00:33:16,340 --> 00:33:18,500 S2: the hilt, but they're not happy with like the content 693 00:33:18,500 --> 00:33:21,680 S2: she's producing. It's such a strange like thing to be 694 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:22,430 S2: in the middle of. 695 00:33:22,790 --> 00:33:26,240 S1: Are you across this this Reddit subreddit? Uh, Taylor neutral. 696 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,400 S1: That's that's blown up like, this is really interesting. It's 697 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:32,120 S1: like people who have historically been big Taylor Swift fans 698 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,870 S1: and started to be, like, less interested in her, either through, 699 00:33:35,870 --> 00:33:38,209 S1: I guess, the oversaturation we've been talking about or the 700 00:33:38,210 --> 00:33:41,660 S1: Matty Healy stuff. They've created this subreddit because they just 701 00:33:41,660 --> 00:33:44,540 S1: weren't getting traction. On the main Taylor Swift Reddit called 702 00:33:44,540 --> 00:33:47,120 S1: Taylor Neutral, where they're like, we don't hate Taylor, we 703 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:48,740 S1: don't love Taylor. We just want to have some honest 704 00:33:48,740 --> 00:33:51,470 S1: conversations about her music and whatever. And that started to 705 00:33:51,470 --> 00:33:53,510 S1: blow up. So it does feel like there is this 706 00:33:53,510 --> 00:33:55,670 S1: growing part of her fan base that wants to engage with. 707 00:33:55,670 --> 00:33:58,790 S1: I mean, the most interesting thing about this album, I think, 708 00:33:58,790 --> 00:34:02,420 S1: are the tracks where she is taking aim at her 709 00:34:02,420 --> 00:34:05,570 S1: fans for what they did and said to her around 710 00:34:05,570 --> 00:34:07,370 S1: the Matty Healy thing, and I don't really want to 711 00:34:07,370 --> 00:34:09,290 S1: get into the I resent the fact I've had to 712 00:34:09,290 --> 00:34:11,540 S1: talk about Matty Healy so much already. Like, I just 713 00:34:11,540 --> 00:34:14,420 S1: I don't care about the 1975. I don't understand that 714 00:34:14,420 --> 00:34:17,480 S1: this kind of weird rock star, who feels like a 715 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,670 S1: throwback to the era where we all agreed we didn't 716 00:34:19,670 --> 00:34:22,700 S1: want anymore, seems to have this chokehold on on lots 717 00:34:22,700 --> 00:34:24,799 S1: of white women of a certain age. But whatever. We 718 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:26,630 S1: have to talk about him because he's part of this album. 719 00:34:27,170 --> 00:34:29,780 S1: When the I guess rumors emerged that she was maybe 720 00:34:29,780 --> 00:34:32,030 S1: dating him, a big chunk of her fan base, like, 721 00:34:32,030 --> 00:34:33,920 S1: wrote this letter to her and said, you know, he 722 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,500 S1: said these problematic things. He's been on this controversial podcast. 723 00:34:36,500 --> 00:34:38,450 S1: It's a bit of a weird guy. You shouldn't date him. 724 00:34:38,450 --> 00:34:41,210 S1: And I think the song, but daddy, I love him 725 00:34:41,330 --> 00:34:44,150 S1: is a pretty direct, like response to a fan. She's 726 00:34:44,150 --> 00:34:46,370 S1: got things like, I'll tell you something about my good name, 727 00:34:46,370 --> 00:34:48,859 S1: it's mine alone to disgrace. I don't cater to all 728 00:34:48,860 --> 00:34:52,069 S1: these vipers dressed in empaths clothing. There's other lyrics in 729 00:34:52,070 --> 00:34:54,620 S1: that track where she's saying to her fans, you pretend 730 00:34:54,620 --> 00:34:56,570 S1: you care about me, but I'm not going to listen 731 00:34:56,570 --> 00:34:58,220 S1: to you. You don't get to tell me what I 732 00:34:58,219 --> 00:35:00,590 S1: do and how I live your life. It's so funny 733 00:35:00,590 --> 00:35:04,010 S1: to see an artist simultaneously tell her fans to back off, 734 00:35:04,190 --> 00:35:07,040 S1: but kind of have them on this leash at the 735 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:07,850 S1: same time. 736 00:35:08,390 --> 00:35:12,620 S2: Yeah, it's like this absolutely crazy, like co-dependent relationship where 737 00:35:12,620 --> 00:35:15,049 S2: they both need each other so much and resent each 738 00:35:15,050 --> 00:35:17,240 S2: other so much. Maybe like her and Maddie here, we 739 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,540 S2: never know. But but yeah, it's it's just a really, 740 00:35:20,540 --> 00:35:22,400 S2: really strange thing. And I mean, I know you said 741 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,200 S2: you don't want to get into it. I actually I'm 742 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,390 S2: happy to get into it because I think if anything, 743 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,790 S2: as you know, I mean, look, I'm a journalist, I 744 00:35:28,790 --> 00:35:31,310 S2: love gossip, and I guess that's probably one of the 745 00:35:31,310 --> 00:35:34,219 S2: things I did enjoy. Right from, from this album is, is, 746 00:35:34,219 --> 00:35:36,500 S2: I guess, the voyeuristic elements. And like some of the 747 00:35:36,500 --> 00:35:39,200 S2: decoding and, you know, like, fuck, man, I just, I 748 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,170 S2: couldn't help but think of Travis like being so depressed 749 00:35:42,170 --> 00:35:44,390 S2: as he sat there listening to But daddy, I still 750 00:35:44,390 --> 00:35:47,600 S2: love him when Taylor's like gushing about how I'm like, 751 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:49,640 S2: let's be honest, Matty Healy has obviously done an enormous 752 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:51,620 S2: number on her. She's got like some serious head noise 753 00:35:51,620 --> 00:35:52,400 S2: about that relationship. 754 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,560 S1: I agree. I mean, I find that I find it 755 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:56,660 S1: so I mean and like and and this I guess, 756 00:35:56,660 --> 00:35:58,380 S1: you know, it's a good thing to say. About the 757 00:35:58,380 --> 00:36:00,810 S1: album that it's interesting to have an artist like her 758 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,260 S1: be so honest about how she felt about this guy. 759 00:36:04,290 --> 00:36:06,900 S1: I find it bizarre because it's Matt Healy, but like, 760 00:36:06,900 --> 00:36:09,150 S1: it's not my job to dictate how people feel about 761 00:36:09,150 --> 00:36:11,670 S1: some people. She seems to have been a very long 762 00:36:11,670 --> 00:36:15,089 S1: term fan of the 1975, and he's a very charismatic frontman, 763 00:36:15,090 --> 00:36:16,740 S1: I guess you could say. So she sort of had 764 00:36:16,739 --> 00:36:19,590 S1: this fascination with him for ten years and she lays 765 00:36:19,590 --> 00:36:21,810 S1: it all out. But I agree with you. If you're Travis, 766 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:23,819 S1: it's probably better this way. Like, damn. 767 00:36:24,090 --> 00:36:25,590 S2: The same thing with Joe Alwyn. They're like, fresh out 768 00:36:25,590 --> 00:36:28,260 S2: of the slammer, you know, about him and basically calls 769 00:36:28,260 --> 00:36:31,589 S2: the relationship a prison. So it's just like, oh, man. Brutal. 770 00:36:31,590 --> 00:36:33,540 S2: But yeah, I think, you know, I guess if you 771 00:36:33,540 --> 00:36:35,730 S2: are a Taylor Swift fan and you didn't approve this 772 00:36:35,730 --> 00:36:38,490 S2: relationship and then suddenly, you know, two hours of the 773 00:36:38,489 --> 00:36:42,510 S2: album is dedicated to her, really, like, I guess, digesting 774 00:36:42,510 --> 00:36:46,710 S2: how that brief but obviously intense love affair affected her, then. Yeah, 775 00:36:46,710 --> 00:36:49,080 S2: you're going to be unhappy. But I would say that 776 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,440 S2: it's then led to, uh, some of her strangest and 777 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,590 S2: weirdest writing that she's like, you know, Taylor is we 778 00:36:55,590 --> 00:36:57,360 S2: both went and saw her show. Aside from the fact 779 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,060 S2: it was an amazing performance, you really get a feel 780 00:37:00,060 --> 00:37:03,029 S2: for like, how impressive she is as a lyricist and 781 00:37:03,030 --> 00:37:05,640 S2: how her writing lands in a stadium of, you know, 782 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,090 S2: 100,000 screaming people because she's got such a way with words. 783 00:37:09,090 --> 00:37:11,220 S2: And then, yeah, this is like so much of this 784 00:37:11,219 --> 00:37:12,810 S2: felt like my fucking year 12. 785 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,290 S1: Yeah. We're gonna, um, share some of our favorite weird 786 00:37:16,290 --> 00:37:19,739 S1: lyrics a bit later on in this conversation, but I thought, 787 00:37:19,739 --> 00:37:22,200 S1: you know, we've kind of had a had a broad 788 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:26,460 S1: conversation about the album conceptually, but maybe worth mentioning. Some 789 00:37:26,460 --> 00:37:29,190 S1: of the tracks we do like and why, like Florida, 790 00:37:29,190 --> 00:37:31,379 S1: which is the song with Florence Welch of Florida with 791 00:37:31,380 --> 00:37:32,760 S1: three exclamation marks. 792 00:37:34,230 --> 00:37:38,880 UU: And only the town. You get arrested. So you bet 793 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:40,530 UU: your life. Wait. 794 00:37:40,860 --> 00:37:45,180 S7: Wait out the shit storm back in Texas. Florida. 795 00:37:50,500 --> 00:37:53,590 S1: Florida. I like this track. Part of the reason I 796 00:37:53,590 --> 00:37:56,440 S1: think why I like it is it's one of the many, 797 00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,319 S1: I think, where Lana Del Rey's influence looms very, very large. 798 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,540 S1: And I think Taylor owes a great debt to Lana. 799 00:38:01,540 --> 00:38:03,400 S1: I think she has for a while. I think she's 800 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:05,560 S1: very smart to cut LA an arena on the last record, 801 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:07,900 S1: as a bit of like, I'm, I'm sort of doing 802 00:38:07,900 --> 00:38:10,900 S1: a lot of what you did before. There's actually like 803 00:38:10,900 --> 00:38:15,549 S1: a few Florida references on this album, the track itself, 804 00:38:15,550 --> 00:38:18,310 S1: but also on Fortnite, the opening track. Her and Post 805 00:38:18,310 --> 00:38:20,980 S1: Malone are singing about Florida. I sort of got a 806 00:38:20,980 --> 00:38:23,410 S1: bit conspiratorial on this one, and I wondered whether it 807 00:38:23,410 --> 00:38:27,100 S1: was a political allusion, given that there is a presidential 808 00:38:27,100 --> 00:38:30,190 S1: election later this year in Florida is a very famous 809 00:38:30,190 --> 00:38:32,950 S1: swing state. But then I remembered it's Taylor Swift. And like, 810 00:38:32,950 --> 00:38:35,470 S1: there's no there's no way she's doing that, an interview. 811 00:38:35,469 --> 00:38:38,470 S1: She's just talked about Florida being this place that like 812 00:38:38,469 --> 00:38:40,810 S1: criminals and other people wanting to get away, escape to 813 00:38:40,810 --> 00:38:43,330 S1: kind of like Amy from from Gone Girl. But yeah, 814 00:38:43,330 --> 00:38:45,430 S1: I enjoyed that one. Any any tracks you wanted to 815 00:38:45,430 --> 00:38:45,940 S1: shout out? 816 00:38:45,940 --> 00:38:47,680 S2: What's up with Post Malone, by the way? Just being 817 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:49,360 S2: like the go to feature guy. 818 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:53,200 S1: Yeah, Beyoncé and Taylor, the glue, bringing these two worlds together. 819 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,380 S1: I guess it's like he's just got this broad fan base, right? 820 00:38:56,380 --> 00:38:59,740 S1: So it's like, no one really hates Post Malone. He 821 00:38:59,739 --> 00:39:03,279 S1: sort of started as this rap singer who's now doing country. 822 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,520 S1: He's very flexible, like, why not have a post feature? 823 00:39:06,940 --> 00:39:08,470 S2: I like Post Malone, but yeah, it was also. 824 00:39:08,469 --> 00:39:10,450 S1: Work with Kanye. Interestingly, I wonder how many artists have 825 00:39:10,450 --> 00:39:13,540 S1: worked with Kanye, Beyonce and Taylor Swift. 826 00:39:14,580 --> 00:39:19,020 S2: Probably only posted. Uh, yeah. I also really like Guilty 827 00:39:19,020 --> 00:39:20,759 S2: of Sin. I think that's kind of like a bit 828 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,250 S2: of a sexy track. And I actually like, I didn't 829 00:39:23,250 --> 00:39:24,989 S2: like this at first, and I would. I will also 830 00:39:24,989 --> 00:39:26,400 S2: say that the album has started to grow on me 831 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:26,700 S2: the more I. 832 00:39:26,700 --> 00:39:28,410 S1: Listen to it. Yeah me too actually. I feel like 833 00:39:28,410 --> 00:39:30,450 S1: maybe when we listen to it and it feels so 834 00:39:30,450 --> 00:39:32,850 S1: overwhelming and there's all this conversation, it's like, this is 835 00:39:32,850 --> 00:39:35,040 S1: way too much. And then after a bit of a break, 836 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:36,780 S1: listening to it again at the start of this week, 837 00:39:36,900 --> 00:39:38,820 S1: I'm like, there's a bunch of tracks there like that 838 00:39:38,820 --> 00:39:40,410 S1: are good tracks. I think this is the thing about 839 00:39:40,410 --> 00:39:42,690 S1: this album. It's not like a terrible album, like you 840 00:39:42,690 --> 00:39:44,520 S1: put it on you. You can't listen to it. It's 841 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:48,210 S1: the broad thematic reason for its existence. Feels a bit 842 00:39:48,210 --> 00:39:51,630 S1: like unnecessary, but there's some there's definitely some good tracks. 843 00:39:51,930 --> 00:39:54,000 S2: Yeah, for sure. I also quite like Down Bad. 844 00:39:55,560 --> 00:40:02,970 UU: Did you really? Give me a. And a cloud of 845 00:40:02,969 --> 00:40:09,630 UU: sparkling dust. Just to do experiments on tell me I was. 846 00:40:09,630 --> 00:40:12,360 S7: The chosen one. Showed me that this. 847 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,720 UU: World is bigger than us. Then sent me back where 848 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:17,100 UU: I came from. 849 00:40:19,370 --> 00:40:22,549 S2: For it feels very like. Yeah. Taylor reputation era like 850 00:40:22,550 --> 00:40:24,980 S2: when she wants to like, go for it. She really can. 851 00:40:24,980 --> 00:40:27,230 S2: But there are tracks I enjoy, but I think it's 852 00:40:27,230 --> 00:40:29,120 S2: just more that I'm finding it hard to get past 853 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:31,370 S2: everything that is distracting about the albums. 854 00:40:31,460 --> 00:40:34,009 S1: Yeah, and maybe if there was like fewer tracks, it 855 00:40:34,010 --> 00:40:36,140 S1: would be easier to look at this collectively as like 856 00:40:36,140 --> 00:40:39,470 S1: a really interesting project. I think, like there's some stuff 857 00:40:39,469 --> 00:40:41,420 S1: on the anthology bit that I like, but there's some 858 00:40:41,420 --> 00:40:44,989 S1: stuff that is just like ridiculous. There's the Kim Kardashian 859 00:40:44,989 --> 00:40:46,880 S1: diss track. Thank you Amy. 860 00:40:47,510 --> 00:40:53,870 S7: When I picture my hometown, there's a bronze spray tan 861 00:40:53,870 --> 00:41:02,570 S7: statue of you and a plaque underneath it that threatens 862 00:41:02,570 --> 00:41:06,080 S7: to push me down the stairs at our school. And 863 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:14,450 S7: it was always the same searing pain. But I dreamed 864 00:41:14,450 --> 00:41:15,110 S7: that one day. 865 00:41:15,110 --> 00:41:16,970 S1: It's so weird because that's a whole song where it's like, 866 00:41:16,969 --> 00:41:20,540 S1: I've changed your name, but it's so obviously about Kim 867 00:41:20,540 --> 00:41:25,219 S1: to the point where she's capitalized K, I and M 868 00:41:25,219 --> 00:41:29,210 S1: in the title and she's singing like, you know, thanks 869 00:41:29,210 --> 00:41:32,270 S1: for what you did. Like, I'll always be better for 870 00:41:32,270 --> 00:41:33,770 S1: it now. And I don't even think about you. And 871 00:41:33,950 --> 00:41:37,310 S1: it's like, this happened so long ago. Like, why are 872 00:41:37,310 --> 00:41:40,100 S1: we still talking about this? Just just doesn't feel necessary. 873 00:41:40,460 --> 00:41:42,530 S2: Yeah. And I just thought that was, like, a really weird, 874 00:41:42,530 --> 00:41:45,440 S2: immature decision. It's like, so strange for someone like Taylor 875 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:47,750 S2: who is, like, obviously a very smart artist and does 876 00:41:47,750 --> 00:41:50,480 S2: all these great things. And then it's like, why do 877 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:51,860 S2: you need to go and have this, like weird diss 878 00:41:51,860 --> 00:41:55,490 S2: track with like, strange capitalization? It just feels a bit lame. 879 00:41:55,700 --> 00:41:58,310 S2: It's like she can't escape her own, like, cringe factor 880 00:41:58,310 --> 00:42:00,920 S2: and like that, that thank you, Amy song. Completely unnecessary. 881 00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,140 S2: I don't know how someone around here wasn't like, should 882 00:42:03,140 --> 00:42:05,030 S2: we scratch that? Also, I think in the back half 883 00:42:05,030 --> 00:42:06,980 S2: of the album when there's like 50 tracks that are 884 00:42:06,980 --> 00:42:11,000 S2: just people's names Peter, Cassandra, like, they're big skips from here. 885 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,480 S1: Yeah, fully. This is maybe the most blunt main thing 886 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:18,200 S1: I'm going to say I like I do get this 887 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,480 S1: feeling on even the tracks that we've mentioned that we 888 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:26,060 S1: like the overall. Emotional sense evoked for me is one 889 00:42:26,060 --> 00:42:30,529 S1: of like Arrested Development. Like this is someone who, when 890 00:42:30,530 --> 00:42:33,950 S1: they were writing these songs, when they were a teenager 891 00:42:33,950 --> 00:42:37,190 S1: in the early 20s and then mid 20s, it's like, cool, man. Like, yeah, 892 00:42:37,219 --> 00:42:40,100 S1: heartbreak is the biggest thing in the world, and you're 893 00:42:40,100 --> 00:42:41,989 S1: allowed to write about it and you're allowed to write 894 00:42:42,020 --> 00:42:44,270 S1: 100 songs about it if you if you like. But 895 00:42:44,420 --> 00:42:47,509 S1: when you're at this stage in your career and you're 896 00:42:47,510 --> 00:42:52,410 S1: just pumping out 31 songs about. What this, like weird 897 00:42:52,410 --> 00:42:57,580 S1: rock star did to your heart? It just doesn't. Feel right. 898 00:42:57,580 --> 00:42:58,930 S1: And like, I know maybe a lot of people listen 899 00:42:58,930 --> 00:43:01,420 S1: to this, like women in their mid 30s or like, well, actually, 900 00:43:01,420 --> 00:43:03,640 S1: that's like how we all feel. So you shut up 901 00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:05,529 S1: and let us, like, emote. And I'm like, yeah, you're 902 00:43:05,530 --> 00:43:08,140 S1: all allowed to emote and you're allowed to write songs 903 00:43:08,140 --> 00:43:10,359 S1: about this again. I'm not trying to say that she 904 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,390 S1: should be like prevented from doing this, but it just 905 00:43:13,750 --> 00:43:17,529 S1: feels unnatural that an artist who's been making this kind 906 00:43:17,530 --> 00:43:21,610 S1: of music for two decades now seems stuck in the same. 907 00:43:22,270 --> 00:43:27,670 S1: Space of being able to write very didactic about her singular, 908 00:43:27,670 --> 00:43:33,620 S1: insular experience of heartbreak. As she experiences it, processes it, 909 00:43:33,620 --> 00:43:36,140 S1: thinks about it. When she's done things like this before, 910 00:43:36,140 --> 00:43:37,879 S1: when it's worked really well, it's like I said, her 911 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:41,540 S1: ability to take a singular experience, but write about it 912 00:43:41,540 --> 00:43:42,859 S1: in a way that feels like it could relate to 913 00:43:42,860 --> 00:43:45,110 S1: so many things. Well, this does not feel like the 914 00:43:45,110 --> 00:43:48,380 S1: rest of the world exists. There's nothing broad or universal 915 00:43:48,380 --> 00:43:51,259 S1: about this record. I think maybe that's because I'm not 916 00:43:51,260 --> 00:43:53,060 S1: like a woman in her 20s and 30s. I don't know, 917 00:43:53,060 --> 00:43:55,490 S1: but I've related to her other lyrics like I've been 918 00:43:55,489 --> 00:43:57,380 S1: hot broken before. I hate to break it to you, 919 00:43:57,380 --> 00:43:58,970 S1: but like, that's the thing that a lot of people 920 00:43:58,969 --> 00:44:04,190 S1: go through. But this just feels so autobiographical that it's 921 00:44:04,190 --> 00:44:06,710 S1: hard to connect with, and that just feels like an 922 00:44:06,710 --> 00:44:09,050 S1: odd thing to experience from a singer at this stage 923 00:44:09,050 --> 00:44:10,100 S1: of her life and career. 924 00:44:10,100 --> 00:44:11,990 S2: Yeah, I think so, for sure. And I don't think 925 00:44:11,989 --> 00:44:15,319 S2: it's unfair that we, you know, project these expectations on 926 00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:18,110 S2: an artist that we all love and that has rightfully, 927 00:44:18,110 --> 00:44:21,650 S2: you know, like battled her way to the top of 928 00:44:21,650 --> 00:44:24,320 S2: the totem pole in pop culture and is easily the 929 00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:29,090 S2: most influential and, you know, um, excitable artist in the world. And, 930 00:44:29,090 --> 00:44:32,239 S2: you know, like this morning, for instance, I was driving home, um, 931 00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:35,930 S2: and Love Story came on smooth FM. Great radio station. 932 00:44:35,930 --> 00:44:38,359 S1: And you're like a Ritchie in the bay. You just, like, 933 00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:40,100 S1: put the the pedal to the floor. 934 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:40,640 S8: Man. 935 00:44:41,150 --> 00:44:44,960 S2: Like, that's a fucking great song. And I turned it 936 00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:47,600 S2: up and sang along and, you know, it's such a 937 00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,000 S2: great singalong song. But like, listening to I was struck 938 00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,250 S2: by like, man, it's crazy, like, that's Taylor, I don't know. 939 00:44:52,340 --> 00:44:54,859 S2: What was she like in her early 20s writing about this? 940 00:44:54,860 --> 00:44:58,940 S2: Like fairytale romance, just like storybook obsession she has with, like, 941 00:44:58,940 --> 00:45:01,670 S2: happily ever after in like, White Nights and, you know, 942 00:45:01,670 --> 00:45:04,880 S2: this idea of perfect marriage. And, you know, that's all fine. 943 00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:06,050 S2: And it made a lot of sense. And it was 944 00:45:06,050 --> 00:45:09,920 S2: charming for this, like 20 something singer songwriter that still had, like, 945 00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,290 S2: the country thing going on. I'm not saying she can't 946 00:45:12,290 --> 00:45:14,600 S2: write about that anymore, but it's crazy when you actually 947 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:17,150 S2: dig into the lyrics on this album, this latest album 948 00:45:17,150 --> 00:45:20,720 S2: about how much that fixation remains. Like she's still talking about, like, 949 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:25,250 S2: wedding rings and happily ever after and and like, that's it. 950 00:45:25,250 --> 00:45:28,940 S2: And it feels like there's not been much evolution or 951 00:45:28,940 --> 00:45:31,160 S2: if anything, there's been like a, you know, a devolution 952 00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:35,450 S2: of devolution because, like, she's no longer even, like trying 953 00:45:35,450 --> 00:45:38,270 S2: to expand her focus, but instead just like heading out, 954 00:45:38,270 --> 00:45:40,430 S2: there's like there's so much like, you know, like fan 955 00:45:40,430 --> 00:45:43,700 S2: generated songs that they want about, like getting married or 956 00:45:43,700 --> 00:45:45,529 S2: finding the perfect love or anything like that. And it's 957 00:45:45,530 --> 00:45:48,470 S2: just like, look, after a while, you do have certain 958 00:45:48,469 --> 00:45:51,710 S2: expectations that come with being this, you know, incredible artists 959 00:45:51,710 --> 00:45:53,810 S2: like people want people know how great you are, they 960 00:45:53,810 --> 00:45:56,570 S2: want more from you. And it feels just like, I 961 00:45:56,570 --> 00:45:59,150 S2: don't want to say lazy, but like when you get 962 00:45:59,150 --> 00:46:02,450 S2: it and it's still okay, people are a bit like, okay, well, like, 963 00:46:02,450 --> 00:46:04,280 S2: I guess, nice work. 964 00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:06,590 S1: No, I completely agree. I think you put what I 965 00:46:06,590 --> 00:46:08,810 S1: was trying to say in much better words. I feel 966 00:46:08,810 --> 00:46:11,089 S1: like if anything gets, it's crucified. It's that conversation. But 967 00:46:11,090 --> 00:46:12,770 S1: I think we've got to be honest about how we feel, man, 968 00:46:12,770 --> 00:46:14,239 S1: if we can't do that, what are we doing here? 969 00:46:15,110 --> 00:46:17,750 S2: I mean, yeah, I can't wait to get completely dark now. 970 00:46:18,020 --> 00:46:20,810 S1: Um, we were talking before about how much she's promoting 971 00:46:20,810 --> 00:46:23,359 S1: this album. This feels not totally new, like she's done 972 00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:27,170 S1: this in previous album releases, brand partnerships, all this kind 973 00:46:27,170 --> 00:46:30,050 S1: of stuff. But it's been less coming from her regularly. 974 00:46:30,050 --> 00:46:31,670 S1: But but this time around, like we talked about this 975 00:46:31,670 --> 00:46:36,260 S1: Spotify brand campaign, that library activation on the podcast last week, 976 00:46:36,260 --> 00:46:40,160 S1: she's been doing ads for Spotify and Apple and Amazon. 977 00:46:40,940 --> 00:46:43,730 S1: I mean, she's not content with every record that she's 978 00:46:43,730 --> 00:46:45,500 S1: already got. She wants more. She wants to break more 979 00:46:45,500 --> 00:46:48,500 S1: streaming numbers. What is the end goal here, man? Like 980 00:46:48,500 --> 00:46:50,840 S1: like this isn't I mean, she also came back on TikTok. 981 00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:53,210 S1: This is really interesting. Like universal pulled all of their 982 00:46:53,210 --> 00:46:55,700 S1: music on TikTok as part of this negotiation to try 983 00:46:55,700 --> 00:46:58,969 S1: and extract more revenue from the platform she signed to universal. 984 00:46:58,969 --> 00:47:00,740 S1: But she has the streaming rights to a music so 985 00:47:00,739 --> 00:47:03,410 S1: she can put it back on, which she did in 986 00:47:03,410 --> 00:47:06,230 S1: the lead up to this album. A lot of people 987 00:47:06,230 --> 00:47:08,630 S1: seem like not very happy with that because they're sort 988 00:47:08,630 --> 00:47:11,989 S1: of perceiving it as crossing a picket line. Insofar as 989 00:47:11,989 --> 00:47:15,230 S1: this universal negotiation, a lot of smaller and big artists 990 00:47:15,230 --> 00:47:17,060 S1: are not able to have their music on TikTok. But 991 00:47:17,060 --> 00:47:19,340 S1: she's just like, screw it, man, I want to like, 992 00:47:19,340 --> 00:47:23,810 S1: go full throttle. Let's get as many streams as possible. 993 00:47:23,900 --> 00:47:29,180 S1: And like we spoke last time, seems a bit diametrically 994 00:47:29,180 --> 00:47:33,110 S1: opposed to her previous thoughts on streaming and and artist 995 00:47:33,110 --> 00:47:35,900 S1: Renumeration like, what is the end goal here of of 996 00:47:35,900 --> 00:47:39,320 S1: going so big and doing so much marketing? 997 00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,530 S2: Yeah, I don't really know. I really don't know what 998 00:47:42,530 --> 00:47:47,120 S2: is next now. Like we've had such a like exhausting 999 00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:51,290 S2: run of, you know, like film and like era tours 1000 00:47:51,290 --> 00:47:54,950 S2: and music and award ceremonies and fucking the Super Bowl, 1001 00:47:55,190 --> 00:48:01,250 S2: just like every major like event or conversation or anything 1002 00:48:01,250 --> 00:48:05,390 S2: has been like somehow Taylor adjacent Coachella like. And so 1003 00:48:05,390 --> 00:48:09,800 S2: I don't really know what can happen or what needs 1004 00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:11,750 S2: to happen or what would be the best thing to happen. 1005 00:48:11,750 --> 00:48:13,820 S2: It's like I've been thinking a lot about like what? 1006 00:48:13,820 --> 00:48:16,100 S2: What actually what actually comes after this. Like, you know, 1007 00:48:16,100 --> 00:48:17,690 S2: she's not going to go on tour with this album, obviously, 1008 00:48:17,690 --> 00:48:20,870 S2: like right now. And I guess the only like, you know, 1009 00:48:20,870 --> 00:48:22,940 S2: if I'm putting on my Taylor Swift hat and doing 1010 00:48:22,940 --> 00:48:25,790 S2: some like, you know, amateur sleuthing, the only thing I 1011 00:48:25,790 --> 00:48:28,610 S2: can kind of gauge is that in I can Do 1012 00:48:28,610 --> 00:48:30,469 S2: It With The Broken Heart, which is actually a pretty 1013 00:48:30,469 --> 00:48:33,350 S2: good song. Who she. That basically is like a it's like, 1014 00:48:33,350 --> 00:48:35,600 S2: you know, it's her version of like dancing on my own. 1015 00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:38,509 S2: It's just kind of like really sad song which addresses 1016 00:48:38,510 --> 00:48:40,670 S2: basically it's like kind of in character. Her on the 1017 00:48:40,670 --> 00:48:43,850 S2: ears to are talking about being depressed on stage. And 1018 00:48:43,850 --> 00:48:46,100 S2: if anything, I was like, maybe that's a clue as 1019 00:48:46,100 --> 00:48:48,410 S2: to what is next. Like, she's come off this billion 1020 00:48:48,410 --> 00:48:51,710 S2: dollar record breaking tour, released a whole bunch of songs 1021 00:48:51,710 --> 00:48:53,300 S2: that maybe she just needed to fucking get out of 1022 00:48:53,300 --> 00:48:56,420 S2: her system and, you know, but she's directly addressing this, like, 1023 00:48:56,420 --> 00:48:59,570 S2: I guess, her own fatigue. And so perhaps there will 1024 00:48:59,570 --> 00:49:03,049 S2: be now, uh, a period of, like, downtime for her 1025 00:49:03,050 --> 00:49:06,920 S2: where she's like, you know, I've done tour, album, Grammys, 1026 00:49:07,100 --> 00:49:10,490 S2: everything here it all is. And like, you know, it's 1027 00:49:10,489 --> 00:49:13,130 S2: obviously taken a toll on her, I would say. And 1028 00:49:13,130 --> 00:49:15,739 S2: maybe there will now be like a bit of, like 1029 00:49:15,739 --> 00:49:17,779 S2: downtime for Taylor and for the rest of us. 1030 00:49:18,020 --> 00:49:21,530 S1: I think that's really insightful. I think that's probably what 1031 00:49:21,530 --> 00:49:24,589 S1: I think from a critical perspective is probably needed. Like take, 1032 00:49:24,590 --> 00:49:26,870 S1: take a break. You deserve it. Like you definitely deserve it. 1033 00:49:26,870 --> 00:49:29,780 S1: Quite a bit of scarcity. Live your life, enjoy your life, 1034 00:49:29,780 --> 00:49:33,230 S1: go on holiday. And if after that you want to 1035 00:49:33,350 --> 00:49:36,050 S1: write some music that feels relevant to you, please do. 1036 00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:38,390 S1: We're going to be excited to hear it again. You know, 1037 00:49:38,390 --> 00:49:41,810 S1: I think maybe there's also this sense of, you know, 1038 00:49:41,810 --> 00:49:44,540 S1: when you're at your peak, like like hit it, you know, 1039 00:49:44,540 --> 00:49:46,700 S1: like she's very aware, she's talked about this, she's written 1040 00:49:46,700 --> 00:49:49,100 S1: songs about this. The world does not have a great 1041 00:49:49,100 --> 00:49:52,220 S1: record for like continuing to support and pay money to 1042 00:49:52,219 --> 00:49:54,109 S1: like women when they reach a certain age. I think 1043 00:49:54,110 --> 00:49:56,360 S1: she's like, I'm at a peak right now in terms 1044 00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:58,790 S1: of the cultural attention being paid to me. I want 1045 00:49:58,790 --> 00:50:01,850 S1: to get that bag from every avenue possible, from touring, 1046 00:50:01,850 --> 00:50:06,500 S1: from streaming, from whatever, and like tap that out and 1047 00:50:06,500 --> 00:50:08,960 S1: then potentially, like, take a bit of a break and 1048 00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:11,419 S1: come back at a different phase. I think if that's 1049 00:50:11,420 --> 00:50:14,120 S1: what she does, great. I mean, if she just continues 1050 00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:18,080 S1: to release stuff like this, it'll probably sound okay like this, 1051 00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:19,549 S1: and her fans will eat it up, but I think 1052 00:50:19,550 --> 00:50:22,700 S1: it will over a number of years start to impact. 1053 00:50:22,700 --> 00:50:25,580 S1: I think her reputation as someone who doesn't just make 1054 00:50:25,580 --> 00:50:28,190 S1: really great stellar records, but as someone who's just doing 1055 00:50:28,190 --> 00:50:30,200 S1: that thing that, like Drake has been doing the last 1056 00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:32,210 S1: little while, you know, which is just releasing what sound 1057 00:50:32,210 --> 00:50:34,969 S1: like mixtapes. And I think that has diminished his reputation 1058 00:50:34,969 --> 00:50:37,160 S1: a little bit. I don't want that for her. No. 1059 00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:38,330 S2: And I guess the other thing I would say is 1060 00:50:38,330 --> 00:50:39,950 S2: I would like one of the worst songs in this 1061 00:50:39,950 --> 00:50:43,250 S2: album is So High School, which is about Travis. So 1062 00:50:43,250 --> 00:50:47,120 S2: should she should, you know, the worst happen and her 1063 00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:51,650 S2: and Travis Kelsey break up that breakup album will fucking suck. Uh, 1064 00:50:51,650 --> 00:50:54,680 S2: because I don't suspect that their love, as much as 1065 00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:57,590 S2: it seems very, very lovely, is, you know, kind of 1066 00:50:57,590 --> 00:51:00,290 S2: great writing material. If so, high school is anything to 1067 00:51:00,290 --> 00:51:01,670 S2: kind of. Yeah, yeah. 1068 00:51:01,910 --> 00:51:04,940 S1: Um, hey, before we wrap up the Taylor chat, should 1069 00:51:04,940 --> 00:51:09,200 S1: we share our favorite weird lyrics from this album? We should. 1070 00:51:09,530 --> 00:51:11,810 S1: We should also say this is like a part of 1071 00:51:11,810 --> 00:51:14,150 S1: the discourse around this album. Now, it's it's really interesting 1072 00:51:14,150 --> 00:51:19,219 S1: because Spotify and TikTok have introduced these tools lately that 1073 00:51:19,219 --> 00:51:24,830 S1: really encourage fans and listeners to treat songs like pull 1074 00:51:24,830 --> 00:51:27,350 S1: quotes like you can like, pull out your favorite or 1075 00:51:27,350 --> 00:51:29,509 S1: weirdest quote and you can share it on your social media. 1076 00:51:29,510 --> 00:51:32,450 S1: It's really interesting because I think artists you know, they 1077 00:51:32,450 --> 00:51:34,130 S1: want to write catchy hooks and stuff, but they also 1078 00:51:34,130 --> 00:51:37,730 S1: want songs to be like listened to in the context 1079 00:51:37,730 --> 00:51:40,490 S1: of the whole song. And when this album first came out, 1080 00:51:40,489 --> 00:51:42,080 S1: when there was a leak, in fact, a couple of 1081 00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:45,620 S1: days earlier, people got really stuck into like, individual lines, 1082 00:51:45,620 --> 00:51:48,710 S1: you know, like we we thought Charlie Puth should be 1083 00:51:48,710 --> 00:51:50,930 S1: a bigger artist and stuff. And people are like, that's crazy. 1084 00:51:50,930 --> 00:51:52,700 S1: When you listen to that stuff in context, you can 1085 00:51:52,700 --> 00:51:55,550 S1: understand the irony or whatever, and it makes sense. But 1086 00:51:55,790 --> 00:51:58,640 S1: it's it's kind of like just the nature of, I guess, 1087 00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:01,370 S1: these platforms that she's willing to play ball with and 1088 00:52:01,370 --> 00:52:04,520 S1: the way that fans want to dissect lyrics that it's 1089 00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:07,700 S1: easier than ever to pick out something that sounds very, 1090 00:52:07,700 --> 00:52:11,510 S1: very bizarre. And thankfully for us, there is quite a 1091 00:52:11,510 --> 00:52:15,890 S1: number of totally bizarre lyrics. Um, I'll share you my 1092 00:52:15,890 --> 00:52:20,060 S1: favorite weird lyric. Uh, my friends used to play a 1093 00:52:20,060 --> 00:52:22,279 S1: game where we would pick a decade we wished we 1094 00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:25,610 S1: could live in. Instead of this, I'd say the 1830s, 1095 00:52:25,610 --> 00:52:29,780 S1: but without all the racists. Now that's crazy. Now we 1096 00:52:29,780 --> 00:52:33,450 S1: should say the rest of that. Verse goes into describe 1097 00:52:33,450 --> 00:52:35,819 S1: like she's then ruined the game for everyone and you 1098 00:52:35,820 --> 00:52:38,460 S1: know she classic Taylor. She's just trying to like have 1099 00:52:38,460 --> 00:52:40,320 S1: fun and point things out. And she's ruining it for 1100 00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,620 S1: all of her friends. But that's crazy lyric because like, 1101 00:52:43,620 --> 00:52:47,339 S1: why the 1830s? There's nothing that feels very specific about 1102 00:52:47,340 --> 00:52:50,190 S1: that era that would make you want to go to it. 1103 00:52:50,190 --> 00:52:54,480 S1: It's like pre just pre-industrial revolution, but like like what? 1104 00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:57,569 S1: What sort of fantasies are evoked by that. Some people 1105 00:52:57,570 --> 00:53:01,320 S1: have said that's like around when Bridgerton seems to be set. 1106 00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:04,380 S1: So maybe that's what she's watching. But also she's like 1107 00:53:04,380 --> 00:53:07,650 S1: I'd say the 1830s, but without all the racists. I mean, 1108 00:53:07,650 --> 00:53:09,690 S1: does she think there were no racist? Now, this is 1109 00:53:09,690 --> 00:53:12,270 S1: a constant thing from every era. It's a very strange 1110 00:53:12,270 --> 00:53:13,140 S1: one for me. 1111 00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:16,260 S2: It is very odd. Um, and I think, like so 1112 00:53:16,260 --> 00:53:19,020 S2: many people have picked it out as one that's just like, okay, 1113 00:53:19,020 --> 00:53:21,420 S2: well you've like, again, probably needed a serious. 1114 00:53:21,420 --> 00:53:23,490 S1: Edit, but also she doesn't point out like, but without 1115 00:53:23,489 --> 00:53:26,130 S1: all like the deep sexism as well. Like, women weren't 1116 00:53:26,130 --> 00:53:28,020 S1: having a great time in the 1830s. 1117 00:53:28,620 --> 00:53:30,359 S2: I actually do think the bridges and things probably bang 1118 00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:32,700 S2: on because like, you know, that that all kind of 1119 00:53:32,700 --> 00:53:35,190 S2: sucks up. Um, my one is from the song I 1120 00:53:35,190 --> 00:53:36,299 S2: was just talking about. I can do it with the 1121 00:53:36,300 --> 00:53:39,540 S2: Broken Heart. Um, and it's I cry a lot, but 1122 00:53:39,540 --> 00:53:42,569 S2: I am so productive. It's an art. And almost as 1123 00:53:42,570 --> 00:53:44,160 S2: soon as I heard it, I was like, I can 1124 00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:48,090 S2: just see this being a fucking out of context. Instagram 1125 00:53:48,090 --> 00:53:51,149 S2: caption on people's like, April dumps where they've just got like, 1126 00:53:51,150 --> 00:53:53,850 S2: photos of like, all the shit they've done with their friends, like, 1127 00:53:53,850 --> 00:53:56,430 S2: you know, walking in the park and sunset photos or whatever. 1128 00:53:56,430 --> 00:53:58,439 S2: Like it's just. And this is such a funny thing. 1129 00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:00,120 S2: You kind of touched on it before and like, Drake 1130 00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:02,880 S2: does it as well. Like, these guys write lyrics. I'm like, 1131 00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:04,950 S2: I know, you know, that's going to end up on 1132 00:54:04,950 --> 00:54:06,839 S2: the internet. All that baked on a cake or some 1133 00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:09,810 S2: shit that I just saw, you know, like, you can just. 1134 00:54:09,810 --> 00:54:12,509 S2: And I've already seen it like 3 or 4 times, like, um, 1135 00:54:12,510 --> 00:54:14,370 S2: you know, different people on my Instagram, like sharing that 1136 00:54:14,370 --> 00:54:15,960 S2: one and being like, oh my God, like, so me 1137 00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:19,860 S2: or whatever. Uh, I also thought this one was really funny, uh, 1138 00:54:19,860 --> 00:54:22,710 S2: from Florida. And my friends all smell like weed or 1139 00:54:22,710 --> 00:54:23,580 S2: little babies. 1140 00:54:23,580 --> 00:54:25,709 S1: See, actually, I think that's funny. I actually really liked 1141 00:54:25,710 --> 00:54:27,480 S1: that one. I think, uh, people have sort of been 1142 00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:29,700 S1: taking the piss out of it, and it seems sort 1143 00:54:29,700 --> 00:54:32,880 S1: of bizarre, but it seems also like a relevant reflection 1144 00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:35,279 S1: when you're in your early or mid 30s where you're 1145 00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:37,410 S1: either with, like your friends who don't have kids and 1146 00:54:37,410 --> 00:54:40,020 S1: they're like partying, or your friends who do have kids 1147 00:54:40,020 --> 00:54:41,610 S1: and they're not partying and they're just looking up to 1148 00:54:41,610 --> 00:54:42,509 S1: their kids all the time. 1149 00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:44,670 S2: No, I actually quite like it too. I just thought 1150 00:54:44,670 --> 00:54:46,950 S2: it was funny and like, especially because, you know, having 1151 00:54:46,950 --> 00:54:51,029 S2: graduated from like, um, everybody being a sexy baby now, 1152 00:54:51,570 --> 00:54:53,430 S2: now we're at the weed a little babies. 1153 00:54:53,430 --> 00:54:56,250 S1: But it's it's a universe grows with this one. 1154 00:54:56,700 --> 00:54:59,070 S2: Correct. It's a, it's a funny kind of like, weirdly 1155 00:54:59,070 --> 00:55:00,630 S2: accurate snapshot of what it's like to be in your 1156 00:55:00,630 --> 00:55:01,410 S2: early 30s. 1157 00:55:01,410 --> 00:55:03,750 S1: My, um, my next favorite one. I think this is 1158 00:55:03,750 --> 00:55:06,810 S1: the one that seems to be referencing Travis Kelce. Uh, 1159 00:55:06,810 --> 00:55:09,840 S1: you know how to bowl I know Aristotle brand new 1160 00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:12,930 S1: full throttle. Touch me while you're bro's play Grand Theft 1161 00:55:12,930 --> 00:55:16,230 S1: Auto like I love a GTA reference in any song. 1162 00:55:16,650 --> 00:55:17,400 S1: That's great. 1163 00:55:18,170 --> 00:55:19,790 S8: So weird, isn't it? 1164 00:55:19,820 --> 00:55:22,339 S1: Does she? She knows Grand theft Auto. That's cool. You know, 1165 00:55:22,340 --> 00:55:23,779 S1: she's just one of those cool girls that wants to 1166 00:55:23,780 --> 00:55:26,900 S1: hang out with the fellas and watch them play video games. 1167 00:55:26,930 --> 00:55:28,189 S1: Who doesn't want that? 1168 00:55:28,820 --> 00:55:30,440 S2: But it's just the worst part is, I'm like, I 1169 00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:34,130 S2: can just see Travis, like, doing that while his brothers 1170 00:55:34,130 --> 00:55:36,980 S2: are playing Grand Theft Auto. And so it's just like, 1171 00:55:36,980 --> 00:55:39,590 S2: it's so weird. Is that the same song that mentions 1172 00:55:39,590 --> 00:55:42,890 S2: American Pie two? I think she's really living, like in 2006. 1173 00:55:43,790 --> 00:55:45,650 S2: This is another one that I actually found funny and 1174 00:55:45,650 --> 00:55:48,890 S2: also features babies from. But daddy, I love him screaming. 1175 00:55:48,890 --> 00:55:51,470 S2: But daddy, I love him. I'm having his baby. No 1176 00:55:51,469 --> 00:55:53,239 S2: I'm not, but you should see your faces. And I 1177 00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:54,440 S2: just thought that was actually really funny. 1178 00:55:54,469 --> 00:55:57,950 S1: It's actually. It's actually what, like, only she can pull off, 1179 00:55:57,950 --> 00:56:01,880 S1: which is a lyric that is about evoking fear or 1180 00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:04,400 S1: shock in the eyes of her fans, or listening and 1181 00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:06,860 S1: then telling them jokes on you right away. 1182 00:56:06,890 --> 00:56:09,380 S2: Yeah, and I do. I do appreciate that. Like, Taylor 1183 00:56:09,380 --> 00:56:11,629 S2: does have a good sense of like, what? You know, 1184 00:56:11,630 --> 00:56:13,760 S2: when to, like, take the piss out of herself and 1185 00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:16,819 S2: her fans and stuff. So I thought that was quite funny. But, uh, yeah. 1186 00:56:16,969 --> 00:56:19,339 S1: I have one more that I wanted to mention, and 1187 00:56:19,340 --> 00:56:21,589 S1: this goes to this theme of like, Weddings and Love, 1188 00:56:21,590 --> 00:56:23,509 S1: but this is just what I think is one of 1189 00:56:23,510 --> 00:56:26,270 S1: the weirdest. Like, it's like she can write about this 1190 00:56:26,270 --> 00:56:29,540 S1: idea way better and she's done it before. At dinner, 1191 00:56:29,540 --> 00:56:32,780 S1: you take my ring off my middle finger and put 1192 00:56:32,780 --> 00:56:35,780 S1: it on the one people put wedding rings on, and 1193 00:56:35,780 --> 00:56:38,930 S1: that's the closest I've come to my heart exploding. Now, 1194 00:56:38,930 --> 00:56:41,090 S1: like people have said, that's Matty Healy, kind of like 1195 00:56:41,090 --> 00:56:43,760 S1: love bombing her and, like, pretending to propose to it. 1196 00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:46,669 S1: But I'm like, you take my ring off my middle 1197 00:56:46,670 --> 00:56:48,529 S1: finger and put it on the one people put wedding 1198 00:56:48,530 --> 00:56:51,469 S1: rings on. That's not even a metaphor. That's just like 1199 00:56:51,469 --> 00:56:56,089 S1: a very dry description of something someone is doing. Um, very, 1200 00:56:56,090 --> 00:56:57,110 S1: very funny stuff. 1201 00:56:57,440 --> 00:56:59,060 S2: But that's the thing. When you release an album with 1202 00:56:59,060 --> 00:57:01,190 S2: like 600 tracks, then you just write yourself into a 1203 00:57:01,190 --> 00:57:03,379 S2: corner eventually and you just get fucking fed up. You're like, whatever. 1204 00:57:03,410 --> 00:57:07,669 S1: Exactly, exactly. So I mean, like I said earlier, those 1205 00:57:07,670 --> 00:57:09,230 S1: are fun things to pull out. I think a lot 1206 00:57:09,230 --> 00:57:11,210 S1: of them make more sense when you listen to them 1207 00:57:11,210 --> 00:57:12,410 S1: in the context of the song. And I think, as 1208 00:57:12,410 --> 00:57:16,010 S1: we were saying before, with a bit of distance from 1209 00:57:16,010 --> 00:57:20,450 S1: the release on Friday and the kind of discourse slowing 1210 00:57:20,450 --> 00:57:23,120 S1: down a little bit, it has been more interesting and 1211 00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:25,580 S1: enjoyable to just listen to this album. I don't think 1212 00:57:25,580 --> 00:57:27,980 S1: it's when I'll come back to a lot, but I 1213 00:57:27,980 --> 00:57:30,290 S1: also wouldn't be surprised if in like, you know, 12 1214 00:57:30,290 --> 00:57:32,390 S1: months time, there's a couple of tracks from this that 1215 00:57:32,390 --> 00:57:35,900 S1: are on like a lot of people's favorite Taylor Swift playlist, 1216 00:57:35,900 --> 00:57:37,700 S1: sort of, you know, list of songs. 1217 00:57:38,060 --> 00:57:41,300 S2: It is interesting that really, I would say universally the 1218 00:57:41,300 --> 00:57:44,570 S2: response has been a bit muted. Um, and perhaps that 1219 00:57:44,570 --> 00:57:46,550 S2: was what we all needed. Maybe even Taylor. Maybe this 1220 00:57:46,550 --> 00:57:49,730 S2: will be what brings us the next amazing work from 1221 00:57:49,730 --> 00:57:52,640 S2: Taylor Swift is that, you know, it wasn't just absolute 1222 00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:55,250 S2: like fawning over the what she's produced. And like, we 1223 00:57:55,250 --> 00:57:57,530 S2: continue to just, like, suckle at the teat of Taylor Swift. 1224 00:57:57,530 --> 00:58:01,190 S2: Maybe this will be like the catalyst for an incredible 1225 00:58:01,190 --> 00:58:03,830 S2: album of work that is different and doesn't feature, you know, 1226 00:58:03,830 --> 00:58:07,700 S2: Jack Antonoff trademark production and isn't just all like, you know, 1227 00:58:07,700 --> 00:58:11,090 S2: cute little lyrics and maybe it'll it'll be the start 1228 00:58:11,090 --> 00:58:14,510 S2: of something amazing. Um, because, yeah, I think we've, we've 1229 00:58:14,510 --> 00:58:17,570 S2: ironically come to the end of a very impressive and like, 1230 00:58:17,570 --> 00:58:20,000 S2: game changing era and perhaps, you know, what comes next 1231 00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:20,630 S2: will be even better. 1232 00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:24,800 S1: Love that. Take love that. Ultimately why critical discourse that 1233 00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:27,110 S1: is honest is important because that's how you progress art 1234 00:58:27,110 --> 00:58:40,410 S1: and society forward. Thomas baby reindeer. This is your impress 1235 00:58:40,410 --> 00:58:43,290 S1: your friends recommendation from last week. 1236 00:58:45,630 --> 00:58:47,040 S9: You say this woman stalking you? 1237 00:58:47,070 --> 00:58:48,780 S10: Yeah, like six months, maybe. Why did it. 1238 00:58:48,780 --> 00:58:50,250 S9: Take you so long to report it? I think she 1239 00:58:50,250 --> 00:58:50,880 S9: needs help. 1240 00:58:50,910 --> 00:58:54,300 S10: She comes to my work, my house. She sends me emails, like, 1241 00:58:54,300 --> 00:58:55,350 S10: all the time. Or any. 1242 00:58:55,350 --> 00:59:00,060 S9: Threatening torture. Yeah, I wouldn't say that's particularly threatening. 1243 00:59:01,380 --> 00:59:04,320 S1: It's gone ballistic since then. Thanks to you. I'm going 1244 00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:06,000 S1: to give you all the credit for this. Number one, 1245 00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:08,490 S1: most watched TV show on Netflix all over the world. 1246 00:59:08,490 --> 00:59:12,870 S1: Really in the past few days. This show. Man, this 1247 00:59:12,870 --> 00:59:16,020 S1: is like. Even though you described it like quite accurately, 1248 00:59:16,020 --> 00:59:20,340 S1: it was way more intense and like full on than 1249 00:59:20,340 --> 00:59:22,470 S1: I was expecting it to be. Kind of like a 1250 00:59:22,470 --> 00:59:25,320 S1: really hard watch at times. But can you remind us 1251 00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:27,720 S1: what this is about for people who maybe haven't caught 1252 00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:29,220 S1: the baby reindeer wave yet? 1253 00:59:29,670 --> 00:59:31,890 S2: It's a show by Richard Gad, who writes and stars 1254 00:59:31,890 --> 00:59:34,770 S2: in the show, and it's based on his own one 1255 00:59:34,770 --> 00:59:37,170 S2: man show that he took to Edinburgh at the 2019 1256 00:59:37,170 --> 00:59:39,840 S2: Fringe Festival. And it's basically based on his real life 1257 00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:42,960 S2: experience of having a stalker. Um, he was working in 1258 00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:45,630 S2: a pub in London. A woman came in one night and, 1259 00:59:45,630 --> 00:59:47,700 S2: you know, she seemed sad. He offered her a free 1260 00:59:47,700 --> 00:59:49,980 S2: drink on the house. And that began this kind of 1261 00:59:49,980 --> 00:59:54,090 S2: vicious cycle of being stalked by her while simultaneously, you know, this, 1262 00:59:54,390 --> 00:59:55,770 S2: I guess a bunch of other stuff in his life 1263 00:59:55,770 --> 00:59:58,650 S2: was unravelling. And and the one man show was the 1264 00:59:58,650 --> 01:00:01,350 S2: story of both his stalker and what happened to him 1265 01:00:01,350 --> 01:00:03,480 S2: in his personal life. And it kind of comes to 1266 01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:07,080 S2: this crazy, you know, like Stranger Than Fiction ending. The 1267 01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:09,510 S2: TV show, which has just come out on Netflix, is 1268 01:00:09,510 --> 01:00:12,300 S2: a retelling of that story with Richard Gadd playing himself 1269 01:00:12,570 --> 01:00:15,360 S2: and his stalker is is is named Martha in the show. 1270 01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:20,010 S2: And basically people have become enamored over the last week with, 1271 01:00:20,010 --> 01:00:22,230 S2: I guess that, you know, that real life element that, 1272 01:00:22,230 --> 01:00:25,770 S2: you know, based on a true story element. And as 1273 01:00:25,770 --> 01:00:29,160 S2: happens in these situations, it's kind of kicked off this incredible, 1274 01:00:29,250 --> 01:00:31,590 S2: I guess, movement. People are like, have you seen baby reindeer? 1275 01:00:31,620 --> 01:00:33,780 S2: Can you believe it? Is it true? What's true? Which 1276 01:00:33,780 --> 01:00:36,600 S2: parts of real. And it's still number one on Netflix now? 1277 01:00:36,630 --> 01:00:37,380 S8: I think it's really. 1278 01:00:37,380 --> 01:00:39,330 S1: Interesting because it's sort of like not pitched as a 1279 01:00:39,330 --> 01:00:42,000 S1: true crime show, but like it is essentially a true 1280 01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:44,430 S1: crime show. It's pitched this, this kind of like dark 1281 01:00:44,430 --> 01:00:47,010 S1: comedy thriller. And what's really interesting about it is I 1282 01:00:47,010 --> 01:00:48,960 S1: think the first episode is like kind of funny, and 1283 01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:50,820 S1: you think you're watching a comedy because it's about a comedian. 1284 01:00:50,820 --> 01:00:53,370 S1: But basically from then on in, there's not many jokes. 1285 01:00:53,370 --> 01:00:57,060 S1: It's just a pretty intense true crime thriller that is 1286 01:00:57,060 --> 01:01:00,420 S1: based on, like real crimes that that happened. It reminded 1287 01:01:00,420 --> 01:01:02,760 S1: me a bit of Michaela Coel I May Destroy You 1288 01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:05,340 S1: in the sense of someone who is writing about a 1289 01:01:05,340 --> 01:01:07,650 S1: traumatic incident that happened to them and how they sort 1290 01:01:07,650 --> 01:01:11,160 S1: of process a bit. Kind of unlike that. It's even tinier, 1291 01:01:11,160 --> 01:01:15,030 S1: more interior. It's a very small cast. It's a very small, 1292 01:01:15,030 --> 01:01:17,910 S1: like number of settings and things. And to really unusual 1293 01:01:17,910 --> 01:01:20,310 S1: TV show, like it's very, very good, but it's almost 1294 01:01:20,310 --> 01:01:23,520 S1: unlike many other TV shows I've seen where you just 1295 01:01:24,150 --> 01:01:28,080 S1: reach like a really dark point at the end of 1296 01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:31,950 S1: every episode, but you kind of feel compelled to keep watching, 1297 01:01:31,950 --> 01:01:33,810 S1: and it's very unsettling. I think by the end of 1298 01:01:33,810 --> 01:01:35,880 S1: it you don't really feel good, you don't really know 1299 01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:38,550 S1: how to feel, and it doesn't feel like the kind 1300 01:01:38,550 --> 01:01:40,980 S1: of show that would be so popular because it's not 1301 01:01:40,980 --> 01:01:44,310 S1: like funny and light and doesn't really have a clear 1302 01:01:44,310 --> 01:01:48,120 S1: message about, like, the world or whatever. I'm sort of surprised, 1303 01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:50,070 S1: it seems to have, you know, become so popular to 1304 01:01:50,070 --> 01:01:50,760 S1: so many people. 1305 01:01:51,650 --> 01:01:53,480 S2: Yeah, but we're also living in this age of, like, 1306 01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:56,959 S2: internet sleuths. And so it really plays into the the, like, 1307 01:01:56,960 --> 01:01:59,510 S2: armchair detective movement. And I think that's what's really been 1308 01:01:59,510 --> 01:02:01,940 S2: interesting about the past week because like, you know, in 1309 01:02:01,940 --> 01:02:03,680 S2: terms of like, what can you say about this show? Like, yeah, 1310 01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:05,450 S2: it's really amazing and everyone loves it. But what I 1311 01:02:05,450 --> 01:02:08,570 S2: found interesting is the how the response has, again, like, 1312 01:02:08,570 --> 01:02:11,030 S2: you know, we were talking earlier about like, just like 1313 01:02:11,030 --> 01:02:13,580 S2: how interesting it is to see how like people respond 1314 01:02:13,580 --> 01:02:15,890 S2: to big events. And this has thrown up another kind 1315 01:02:15,890 --> 01:02:18,350 S2: of challenge in that, you know, baby reindeer show based 1316 01:02:18,350 --> 01:02:21,439 S2: on a true story. And it's like you enter it into, 1317 01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:24,050 S2: you know, with the backing of Netflix to 300 million 1318 01:02:24,050 --> 01:02:26,990 S2: subscribers around the world. Yeah. And then you have people 1319 01:02:26,990 --> 01:02:29,419 S2: who inevitably are going to go digging. And so we've 1320 01:02:29,420 --> 01:02:32,480 S2: had Richard Gadd in recent days kind of basically take 1321 01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:35,330 S2: two because essentially, you know, at the end he he 1322 01:02:35,330 --> 01:02:37,580 S2: shows empathy for his stalker. She obviously has his real 1323 01:02:37,580 --> 01:02:39,140 S2: life stalker who we don't know. You know, it's never 1324 01:02:39,140 --> 01:02:42,020 S2: revealed in the show. She obviously has mental health issues. 1325 01:02:42,140 --> 01:02:43,820 S2: And as well, you know, as part of the show 1326 01:02:43,820 --> 01:02:47,090 S2: it's very triggering episode. But you know, Gad discusses sexual 1327 01:02:47,090 --> 01:02:49,850 S2: abuse that happened to him from someone who we understand 1328 01:02:49,850 --> 01:02:52,730 S2: is like a big figure in the comedy scene in London, 1329 01:02:52,730 --> 01:02:55,640 S2: a big producer and writer. Uh, and so people have 1330 01:02:55,640 --> 01:02:57,710 S2: naturally then been like, well, who are the real people 1331 01:02:57,710 --> 01:03:00,050 S2: who are the inspirations for these characters? And he's had 1332 01:03:00,050 --> 01:03:02,330 S2: to go on Instagram in the last week and say, look, 1333 01:03:02,330 --> 01:03:05,630 S2: I'm begging you, please don't go looking for these people. Like, because, 1334 01:03:05,630 --> 01:03:09,050 S2: you know, fans have like incorrectly fingered the wrong suspects 1335 01:03:09,050 --> 01:03:10,610 S2: and being like, oh, this, you know, he knows this 1336 01:03:10,610 --> 01:03:12,980 S2: producer who's, you know, big in the British comedy saying 1337 01:03:12,980 --> 01:03:15,140 S2: that must be the guy who assaulted him. And, you know, 1338 01:03:15,140 --> 01:03:17,840 S2: obviously they're getting these things wrong. And so he said, like, 1339 01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:20,600 S2: people are getting unfairly caught up in speculation. Please don't 1340 01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:22,580 S2: speculate on who the real life people could be. That's 1341 01:03:22,580 --> 01:03:25,040 S2: not the point of the show. But what is interesting 1342 01:03:25,040 --> 01:03:27,050 S2: is that critically, people have started to say, well, like, 1343 01:03:27,050 --> 01:03:30,080 S2: hold on a minute. Like, you know, when you do 1344 01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:33,560 S2: release something that is that uses the very like dangles 1345 01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:36,110 S2: the carrot of being based on a true story, you 1346 01:03:36,110 --> 01:03:39,680 S2: inevitably do invite people in to like, scratch the surface 1347 01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:40,610 S2: and do some digging. 1348 01:03:40,610 --> 01:03:42,260 S1: It's hard to have it both ways, you know? It's 1349 01:03:42,260 --> 01:03:47,140 S1: like you haven't changed enough details to make it. Like 1350 01:03:47,140 --> 01:03:50,140 S1: hard to find these people. And, you know, this is 1351 01:03:50,140 --> 01:03:52,960 S1: how people react. This is just how TV works. Reddit 1352 01:03:52,960 --> 01:03:55,210 S1: will go ballistic. There's lots and lots of Reddit threads 1353 01:03:55,210 --> 01:03:58,120 S1: where people think they found the person and they've named 1354 01:03:58,120 --> 01:04:02,169 S1: particular individuals, and he's gone on Instagram, like you said 1355 01:04:02,170 --> 01:04:04,690 S1: and said, like, it's not this person, but if you're 1356 01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:07,270 S1: that person and you're like, well, all these people are saying, 1357 01:04:07,270 --> 01:04:09,010 S1: it's me. He's saying it's not me. Why? Why am 1358 01:04:09,010 --> 01:04:11,560 S1: I even involved in this narrative? That would be, like deeply. 1359 01:04:11,560 --> 01:04:12,670 S8: Distressing and like. 1360 01:04:12,670 --> 01:04:14,080 S2: They do go to pains to be like, oh, we 1361 01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:16,270 S2: changed some really key details in the show to make 1362 01:04:16,270 --> 01:04:18,580 S2: it impossible for you to find. But that's just like, 1363 01:04:18,580 --> 01:04:20,890 S2: I mean, firstly, that's not really true. It's not. 1364 01:04:20,890 --> 01:04:23,530 S1: True. Like with the stalker, the Martha character, people have 1365 01:04:23,530 --> 01:04:25,840 S1: found her like social media posts and it's like one 1366 01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:28,030 S1: for one, like what she's posting and what she says 1367 01:04:28,030 --> 01:04:29,260 S1: in the show was the same thing. 1368 01:04:29,260 --> 01:04:31,030 S2: And I do understand because at the same time, this 1369 01:04:31,030 --> 01:04:32,530 S2: is his story, and he wanted to turn it into 1370 01:04:32,530 --> 01:04:33,970 S2: a piece of art and like, how much are you 1371 01:04:33,970 --> 01:04:36,580 S2: going to change until it becomes like completely unrecognizable? It's 1372 01:04:36,580 --> 01:04:38,980 S2: a very delicate balance. I mean, it's not his fault 1373 01:04:38,980 --> 01:04:40,480 S2: that we live in this crazy time when people are 1374 01:04:40,480 --> 01:04:42,670 S2: going to then like, pick apart your work. It's just 1375 01:04:42,670 --> 01:04:44,140 S2: it's just I guess that's what we've been. The most 1376 01:04:44,140 --> 01:04:46,210 S2: interesting thing for me over the last week is, like, 1377 01:04:46,210 --> 01:04:48,580 S2: you know, because I did like there's absolutely no denying 1378 01:04:48,610 --> 01:04:50,590 S2: the minute I finished the show, I sat on Google 1379 01:04:50,590 --> 01:04:51,880 S2: and I was like, who is the real Martha? 1380 01:04:52,090 --> 01:04:53,410 S1: I mean, this is one of those shows where you 1381 01:04:53,410 --> 01:04:55,810 S1: saw Wikipedia yet, like halfway through the show and I 1382 01:04:55,810 --> 01:04:57,700 S1: was like, damn, now I kind of know everything. So 1383 01:04:57,700 --> 01:04:59,890 S1: it's sort of ruined it for me. But it yeah, 1384 01:04:59,890 --> 01:05:01,660 S1: it's I think you're spot on. I think it's a 1385 01:05:01,660 --> 01:05:03,790 S1: gripping and like, very well-made show. And I mean, his 1386 01:05:03,790 --> 01:05:06,010 S1: acting is really good and a lot of the cast 1387 01:05:06,010 --> 01:05:08,590 S1: are really great. But I think you're right that a 1388 01:05:08,590 --> 01:05:11,320 S1: lot of its success is due to the kind of 1389 01:05:11,320 --> 01:05:14,140 S1: collapsing of the real world and the TV world, and 1390 01:05:14,140 --> 01:05:17,470 S1: that's something that just we are fascinated with at this 1391 01:05:17,470 --> 01:05:17,860 S1: current moment. 1392 01:05:17,860 --> 01:05:18,400 S8: But it's so funny. 1393 01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:21,310 S2: As well because I like Netflix, gave it no pro, no. 1394 01:05:21,310 --> 01:05:23,140 S1: Premiere at all. And I think that's also so interesting 1395 01:05:23,140 --> 01:05:26,080 S1: that it's like shot to number one without any kind 1396 01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:28,510 S1: of like backing. It's like they didn't really give people 1397 01:05:28,510 --> 01:05:30,970 S1: a heads up. It sort of started to get numbers 1398 01:05:30,970 --> 01:05:33,250 S1: and people were like, Holy shit, we should like interview 1399 01:05:33,250 --> 01:05:36,340 S1: Richard Gad. We should review this show. Really fascinating organic 1400 01:05:36,340 --> 01:05:37,600 S1: rise for this one. 1401 01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:39,850 S2: Yeah. Biggest, biggest word of mouth show I've seen in 1402 01:05:39,850 --> 01:05:41,470 S2: like 12 months, I reckon, for sure. 1403 01:05:41,710 --> 01:05:44,380 S1: And, Thomas, before we, um, get to our Impress Your 1404 01:05:44,380 --> 01:05:46,990 S1: Friend segment, just wanted to talk very briefly about another 1405 01:05:46,990 --> 01:05:49,870 S1: show that just wrapped up this week, one of my 1406 01:05:49,870 --> 01:05:52,630 S1: favorite shows over the past few months, Shogun on Disney Plus. 1407 01:05:52,630 --> 01:05:54,400 S1: We've talked about it a few times on this pod. 1408 01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:56,860 S1: I don't know how many people, uh, listening to this, uh, 1409 01:05:56,860 --> 01:05:58,780 S1: watching the show, so I don't want to go too 1410 01:05:58,780 --> 01:06:01,780 S1: deep into, like, the plot machinations or how it resolved 1411 01:06:01,780 --> 01:06:03,910 S1: or whatever, but just wanted to say that I think 1412 01:06:03,910 --> 01:06:08,530 S1: this was extraordinary show. I thought the ending was, like, incredible. 1413 01:06:08,530 --> 01:06:10,390 S1: I think every time you thought this show was going 1414 01:06:10,390 --> 01:06:13,690 S1: to go down an obvious path of, like showing us 1415 01:06:13,690 --> 01:06:16,120 S1: a big battle scene or like violence, like the Game 1416 01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:18,970 S1: of Thrones, half of it. It eschewed that and went 1417 01:06:18,970 --> 01:06:23,980 S1: for the more subtle succession style like character play and 1418 01:06:23,980 --> 01:06:27,010 S1: and sort of political intrigue. But one of the main 1419 01:06:27,010 --> 01:06:30,920 S1: things I thought watching this at the end is. This 1420 01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:35,330 S1: show is a really good endorsement of the non binge model, 1421 01:06:35,330 --> 01:06:38,690 S1: like what it means to release a really interesting show 1422 01:06:38,690 --> 01:06:41,990 S1: over the course of ten weeks, because you end up 1423 01:06:41,990 --> 01:06:45,620 S1: living with these characters for nearly three months. And so 1424 01:06:45,620 --> 01:06:48,560 S1: if they die or if they're in peril, you feel 1425 01:06:48,560 --> 01:06:51,530 S1: that I feel like way more emotionally than you do 1426 01:06:51,530 --> 01:06:54,590 S1: if you're watching like three Body Problem or even like replay, 1427 01:06:54,590 --> 01:06:57,380 S1: another show that we loved in one sitting, you just 1428 01:06:57,380 --> 01:06:59,780 S1: can't have that same emotional impact. And I know a 1429 01:06:59,780 --> 01:07:00,980 S1: lot in the show. You make fun of me for 1430 01:07:00,980 --> 01:07:03,890 S1: like pining for the good old days of TV. And, 1431 01:07:03,890 --> 01:07:05,090 S1: you know, I'm not saying this needs to be 20 1432 01:07:05,090 --> 01:07:08,270 S1: episodes or anything like that, but yeah, I just I'm 1433 01:07:08,270 --> 01:07:11,270 S1: struggling to think of any positives of the binge model 1434 01:07:11,270 --> 01:07:13,520 S1: these days. I think the whole point of TV was 1435 01:07:13,520 --> 01:07:15,290 S1: that it was great. You could watch it, you could 1436 01:07:15,290 --> 01:07:18,170 S1: talk about it. I know friends who were hosting final 1437 01:07:18,170 --> 01:07:22,490 S1: episode parties this week. Like that collective experience where you talk, 1438 01:07:22,490 --> 01:07:25,730 S1: you debate, you grow with these characters and something as 1439 01:07:25,730 --> 01:07:29,270 S1: simple as watching the same characters over three months just 1440 01:07:29,270 --> 01:07:30,890 S1: makes you connect with them in a way that you 1441 01:07:30,890 --> 01:07:33,470 S1: can't if you watch them over 8 or 9 hours. 1442 01:07:33,470 --> 01:07:37,400 S1: And yeah, I just really, really, really think Netflix needs 1443 01:07:37,400 --> 01:07:39,950 S1: to stop doing that and needs to just like give 1444 01:07:39,950 --> 01:07:41,210 S1: us the weekly release, man. 1445 01:07:41,210 --> 01:07:45,140 S2: Yeah, I agree, it's funny. I'm surprised that, like, I 1446 01:07:45,140 --> 01:07:48,500 S2: feel like Shogun has so clearly I mean, obviously it's 1447 01:07:48,500 --> 01:07:51,320 S2: a much bigger pool in the States, but Shogun has 1448 01:07:51,320 --> 01:07:53,600 S2: really struck a chord over there and all of the 1449 01:07:53,600 --> 01:07:56,660 S2: websites and, you know, the kind of big critical websites 1450 01:07:56,660 --> 01:07:58,370 S2: that we like and enjoy and stuff are doing, like, 1451 01:07:58,370 --> 01:08:01,130 S2: you know, bicep recaps and giving it the full succession treatment, 1452 01:08:01,130 --> 01:08:04,130 S2: it didn't seem to cut through as much over here. Like, again, 1453 01:08:04,130 --> 01:08:05,990 S2: based just on word of mouth, like I spoke to 1454 01:08:05,990 --> 01:08:07,700 S2: so many friends who I know were into that kind 1455 01:08:07,700 --> 01:08:10,190 S2: of TV and like lots of them, I would say 1456 01:08:10,190 --> 01:08:13,070 S2: dropped off Shogun despite giving it a bit of a go. Like, 1457 01:08:13,070 --> 01:08:14,990 S2: do you have an even myself? Like I was really 1458 01:08:14,990 --> 01:08:16,760 S2: into it. I've kept up to date, but I haven't 1459 01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:17,750 S2: been like, absolutely. 1460 01:08:17,780 --> 01:08:18,260 S8: I think, I think. 1461 01:08:18,260 --> 01:08:20,300 S1: It's harder because it's harder to talk to people about it. 1462 01:08:20,360 --> 01:08:21,980 S1: I think you're right. Like in Canada, in the US, 1463 01:08:22,010 --> 01:08:24,140 S1: this was the number one show for the past couple 1464 01:08:24,140 --> 01:08:25,910 S1: of months, and I don't know what it is like. 1465 01:08:25,910 --> 01:08:28,580 S1: Maybe it's placement in the Disney+ app. Like I don't 1466 01:08:28,580 --> 01:08:29,900 S1: have the numbers on top of my head. I don't 1467 01:08:29,900 --> 01:08:33,170 S1: know if Disney Plus is less penetration in Australia perhaps, 1468 01:08:33,170 --> 01:08:36,050 S1: than it does in North America, but yeah, it didn't 1469 01:08:36,050 --> 01:08:39,470 S1: hit as strongly here as I was. I was expecting 1470 01:08:39,470 --> 01:08:41,059 S1: it to, which is I think is a shame. If 1471 01:08:41,060 --> 01:08:42,559 S1: you're listening to this and you haven't given it a go, 1472 01:08:42,560 --> 01:08:44,780 S1: I think it's really worth watching. It's really good. 1473 01:08:44,780 --> 01:08:45,500 S8: Television. 1474 01:08:45,500 --> 01:08:48,200 S2: Yeah, great. And, you know, I will be looking forward 1475 01:08:48,200 --> 01:08:50,059 S2: to watching the finale and then you and I can 1476 01:08:50,060 --> 01:08:50,390 S2: talk about. 1477 01:08:50,390 --> 01:08:51,200 S8: It, at least to each other. 1478 01:08:51,740 --> 01:08:53,900 S1: Um, all right, let's wrap up with Impress Your Friends, 1479 01:08:53,900 --> 01:08:57,350 S1: where we recommend something we watch, listen to, read or 1480 01:08:57,350 --> 01:08:59,750 S1: otherwise consumed in the past week. Why don't you go first, man? 1481 01:08:59,750 --> 01:09:00,770 S1: What have you got for us? 1482 01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:01,340 S8: Uh, yes. 1483 01:09:01,340 --> 01:09:04,549 S2: Well, look, I thought, um, as mentioned earlier, we're desperately 1484 01:09:04,550 --> 01:09:07,610 S2: missing Melanie Kambouris. Um, she'll be back next week, for 1485 01:09:07,610 --> 01:09:09,440 S2: those of you who are also missing her. So that's 1486 01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:11,420 S2: very exciting. But I thought in her honor I would 1487 01:09:11,420 --> 01:09:13,580 S2: do a book. Um, I say her honor. She's probably 1488 01:09:13,580 --> 01:09:15,349 S2: cringing as she listens to this. 1489 01:09:15,590 --> 01:09:17,240 S8: She's not listening. She's not listening to this. 1490 01:09:17,240 --> 01:09:19,400 S1: She's gallivanting around Europe. She's not paying any attention to 1491 01:09:19,400 --> 01:09:20,120 S1: what we're doing. 1492 01:09:20,540 --> 01:09:22,189 S2: No, but I'll tell her that I mentioned during this. 1493 01:09:22,189 --> 01:09:22,940 S8: Just get forward. 1494 01:09:22,939 --> 01:09:26,030 S2: So this is a book? Uh, it's Caledonian Road by 1495 01:09:26,030 --> 01:09:28,849 S2: Andrew Ohagan. It came out a few weeks ago, um, 1496 01:09:28,850 --> 01:09:32,209 S2: April 4th. So he's, of course, the author of mayflies. Osmond, 1497 01:09:32,210 --> 01:09:34,009 S2: I think you will love this book. I don't know 1498 01:09:34,010 --> 01:09:36,110 S2: if you're across it yet. No I'm not. So do 1499 01:09:36,110 --> 01:09:37,459 S2: you know Andrew Ohagan, the author? 1500 01:09:37,820 --> 01:09:38,750 S1: No, I don't think so. 1501 01:09:39,290 --> 01:09:41,720 S2: Okay. So he's like, he wrote mayflies, which was great. 1502 01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:44,450 S2: He's nominated for the Booker. But this basically they're calling 1503 01:09:44,450 --> 01:09:46,370 S2: it like a state of the Union novel. So it's 1504 01:09:46,370 --> 01:09:50,240 S2: set in May 2021, in London, kind of like post-Covid. Uh, 1505 01:09:50,240 --> 01:09:54,320 S2: the protagonist is this guy Campbell Flynn. He's an art historian. He's, 1506 01:09:54,320 --> 01:09:56,450 S2: you know, billed as a celebrity intellectual, which I know 1507 01:09:56,450 --> 01:10:00,290 S2: really appeals to you. And he's basically like, you know, 1508 01:10:00,290 --> 01:10:02,720 S2: he's kind of like, yeah, a public intellectual who goes 1509 01:10:02,720 --> 01:10:05,000 S2: on talk shows and writes his, you know, popular columns. 1510 01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:08,210 S2: And he basically he's married really well. And then the 1511 01:10:08,210 --> 01:10:10,729 S2: book just throws us into this world where he is 1512 01:10:10,729 --> 01:10:15,049 S2: kind of like, uh, interacting with like, London gangsters and 1513 01:10:15,050 --> 01:10:19,400 S2: art dealers and Russian oligarchs. And basically we get access 1514 01:10:19,400 --> 01:10:23,000 S2: to Campbell's full interior world while also getting a snapshot of, like, 1515 01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:24,890 S2: modern day London. But it could really be like modern 1516 01:10:24,890 --> 01:10:27,800 S2: day Sydney. It's this like, you know, he he becomes 1517 01:10:27,800 --> 01:10:30,410 S2: like he gets engaged with this brilliant student of his. 1518 01:10:30,410 --> 01:10:35,690 S2: And it's like this really interesting snapshot of like public intellectuals, academia, 1519 01:10:35,689 --> 01:10:39,860 S2: you know, entitlement, privilege, people who are kind of like, 1520 01:10:39,860 --> 01:10:42,530 S2: born into this world of privileged people who access it, 1521 01:10:42,530 --> 01:10:45,050 S2: people who are adjacent to it. It's a really interesting book. 1522 01:10:45,050 --> 01:10:48,560 S2: Very funny. Uh, and yeah, it feels like very timely, uh, 1523 01:10:48,560 --> 01:10:50,510 S2: probably done a very poor job of explaining what it is. 1524 01:10:50,510 --> 01:10:52,729 S2: I'm only halfway through, but I'm absolutely loving it. So 1525 01:10:52,729 --> 01:10:54,860 S2: that's Caledonian Road by Andrew Ohagan. 1526 01:10:54,860 --> 01:10:57,020 S1: Now he's done a great job. I mean I'm compelled 1527 01:10:57,020 --> 01:11:00,050 S1: to read. I've just as you know, uh, finished reading 1528 01:11:00,050 --> 01:11:03,830 S1: Dilly Alden's uh, latest book, which you recommended to me 1529 01:11:03,830 --> 01:11:07,400 S1: ages ago, which I like. Your recommendation turns out pretty good. 1530 01:11:07,400 --> 01:11:10,580 S1: So I'm excited to add this one to the list. Um, 1531 01:11:10,580 --> 01:11:13,070 S1: mine is also a read. A shorter read, though. Uh, 1532 01:11:13,070 --> 01:11:15,830 S1: it's a Harper's Magazine article called The Life and Death 1533 01:11:15,830 --> 01:11:18,559 S1: of Hollywood by Daniel Bester. I mean, this is extremely 1534 01:11:18,560 --> 01:11:21,979 S1: in my wheelhouse. This is a really interesting, long essay 1535 01:11:21,979 --> 01:11:26,210 S1: about the state of Hollywood and Hollywood writers in particular 1536 01:11:26,210 --> 01:11:29,930 S1: through the lens of, I guess, labor relations, looking at the. 1537 01:11:30,030 --> 01:11:33,180 S1: Way that things are operating post the strikes, but also 1538 01:11:33,180 --> 01:11:37,440 S1: giving us a longer zoom look at the industry, kind 1539 01:11:37,439 --> 01:11:41,040 S1: of from the 50s on, and how different government policies 1540 01:11:41,040 --> 01:11:45,990 S1: around encouraging consolidation have changed. Who gets to make TV 1541 01:11:45,990 --> 01:11:49,350 S1: shows and films, and what artists are paid and why. 1542 01:11:49,350 --> 01:11:52,019 S1: The culture we consume now is a direct result of 1543 01:11:52,020 --> 01:11:54,660 S1: reforms made by Bill Clinton in the 90s, for example, 1544 01:11:54,660 --> 01:11:57,300 S1: to let TV networks buy up the companies that make 1545 01:11:57,300 --> 01:12:01,049 S1: TV shows. It might sound a bit dry and economic 1546 01:12:01,050 --> 01:12:04,980 S1: and esoteric, but it's written very compellingly. And if you 1547 01:12:04,979 --> 01:12:07,019 S1: ever want to like, think about like, why is this 1548 01:12:07,020 --> 01:12:09,990 S1: a streaming show and not a film? Or why is 1549 01:12:09,990 --> 01:12:13,080 S1: Netflix doing the binge drop model? For example? This essay 1550 01:12:13,080 --> 01:12:15,660 S1: does a really good job of explaining it through the 1551 01:12:15,660 --> 01:12:18,360 S1: perspective of actually, none of this is an accident. Like 1552 01:12:18,360 --> 01:12:22,050 S1: venture capital got involved in these businesses. The pandemic had 1553 01:12:22,050 --> 01:12:25,470 S1: this kind of impact, like the lack of labor power 1554 01:12:25,470 --> 01:12:28,350 S1: over capital here led to this happening. Obviously, all things 1555 01:12:28,350 --> 01:12:29,880 S1: that I care a lot about, but it's written in 1556 01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:31,860 S1: a very, very interesting way. If you care at all 1557 01:12:31,860 --> 01:12:34,590 S1: about how art and culture is made, would really strongly 1558 01:12:34,590 --> 01:12:35,820 S1: recommend this piece. 1559 01:12:35,820 --> 01:12:36,330 S8: Yeah, I think he. 1560 01:12:36,330 --> 01:12:37,650 S2: Sent it to me during the week and you were like, 1561 01:12:37,650 --> 01:12:38,670 S2: this is a must read. 1562 01:12:39,180 --> 01:12:40,380 S1: You should definitely read it. 1563 01:12:40,800 --> 01:12:41,580 S8: You really were. 1564 01:12:41,580 --> 01:12:42,299 S2: Trying to impress your. 1565 01:12:42,300 --> 01:12:42,600 S8: Friends. 1566 01:12:42,600 --> 01:12:44,760 S2: So I will, I will now that you've now that 1567 01:12:44,760 --> 01:12:46,110 S2: you've shared it with the pod, I will take your 1568 01:12:46,110 --> 01:12:46,800 S2: advice on board. 1569 01:12:46,890 --> 01:12:50,760 S1: I look, I made it through that podcast without, um, dying. 1570 01:12:50,760 --> 01:12:52,320 S1: And I've started to have coughing fits as we get 1571 01:12:52,320 --> 01:12:53,760 S1: to the end. So I think this is the perfect 1572 01:12:53,760 --> 01:12:56,430 S1: time to wrap it up. My man. Thank you so 1573 01:12:56,430 --> 01:12:59,100 S1: much for the conversations. See you next week. See you 1574 01:12:59,100 --> 01:13:04,640 S1: next week. This episode of The Drop was produced by 1575 01:13:04,640 --> 01:13:07,430 S1: Qi Wang. If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of 1576 01:13:07,430 --> 01:13:09,530 S1: The Drop, make sure to follow us on your favorite 1577 01:13:09,530 --> 01:13:12,620 S1: podcast app. Leave us a review or better yet, share 1578 01:13:12,620 --> 01:13:15,440 S1: the episode with a friend. I'm Usman Farooqui. See you 1579 01:13:15,439 --> 01:13:16,070 S1: next week!