WEBVTT - Erin Patterson’s ‘last ditch attempt’ 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:03.880 Nine podcasts. 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:06.960 In this episode, for the first time, Erin Patterson's legal 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:11.039 team states their intention to appeal her convictions for three 0:00:11.039 --> 0:00:14.880 counts of murder and one count of attempted murder. Plus, 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:17.439 she has two new barristers on her side. 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:20.960 Erin Patterson is a murderer. She invited her in-laws to 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:24.720 lunch and dished up that now infamous beef Wellington laced 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:26.560 with poisonous mushrooms. 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:30.840 I have a concern regarding a patient that is potentially 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:35.720 exposed to a fatal toxin from mushroom poisoning. What's her name? 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:39.360 Last name is Patterson. First name Erin. 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:42.240 The mother of two has been exposed for who she 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:44.560 really is a triple murderer. 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:48.080 Three people have died, and we've had a person that 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:50.400 nearly died and was seriously injured. 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:52.800 Justice has been served. 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:57.520 The jury giving a very strong four unanimous guilty verdicts today. 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:00.470 I had eyes on her as the four women stood 0:01:00.470 --> 0:01:03.150 up and read out guilty for different times to all 0:01:03.150 --> 0:01:04.110 four charges. 0:01:04.150 --> 0:01:07.150 Finding she did have the intent to harm her estranged 0:01:07.190 --> 0:01:09.750 husband's in-laws and to kill them. 0:01:09.990 --> 0:01:11.990 Some of the best people I've ever met, they never 0:01:11.990 --> 0:01:14.550 did anything wrong to me, and I'm so devastated about 0:01:14.550 --> 0:01:15.350 what's happened. 0:01:15.550 --> 0:01:19.190 Those 12 jurors, the people who sealed her fate after 0:01:19.190 --> 0:01:23.070 a ten week trial. But ultimately they found that she's 0:01:23.069 --> 0:01:26.470 a liar and they found her guilty. Well, we weren't 0:01:26.470 --> 0:01:29.790 expecting to see Aaron Patterson again or be back in 0:01:29.790 --> 0:01:33.869 court for her case just a month after she was sentenced. Aaron. 0:01:33.870 --> 0:01:36.550 But that's exactly what's happened here in Melbourne today. 0:01:37.030 --> 0:01:42.190 That's right. Continuing on from the unpredictable trial and all 0:01:42.190 --> 0:01:45.949 the twists and turns, once again, there's been, um, another 0:01:45.950 --> 0:01:48.470 update that we can bring our listeners. 0:01:48.470 --> 0:01:50.510 And this was a very, very short court hearing. It 0:01:50.550 --> 0:01:53.910 went for about three minutes in total. But first of all, 0:01:53.910 --> 0:01:59.150 representing Aaron Patterson is her third barrister since she's been charged. 0:01:59.150 --> 0:02:01.830 And it wasn't Colin Mandy who everyone got to know 0:02:01.830 --> 0:02:06.070 through the trial period, a barrister called Richard Edney. Now, 0:02:06.350 --> 0:02:10.190 he also confirmed for the first time that Aaron Patterson 0:02:10.190 --> 0:02:12.869 will be appealing against her convictions. 0:02:12.950 --> 0:02:17.389 That's right. Richard Edney walked into court today to speak 0:02:17.389 --> 0:02:21.630 with Justice Christopher Beale, and he walked in alongside Aaron 0:02:21.630 --> 0:02:24.669 Patterson's solicitors. They've been her solicitors from the very beginning, 0:02:24.669 --> 0:02:28.950 Bill Doig and Ophelia Holloway. Um, but, uh, as he 0:02:28.950 --> 0:02:31.470 walked in, he was, you know, very sharp suit, very 0:02:31.470 --> 0:02:35.270 well presented man strutted straight in like he knew what 0:02:35.270 --> 0:02:37.430 he needed to do and took a seat at the 0:02:37.430 --> 0:02:40.709 bar table on the other side. We had Jane Warren 0:02:40.710 --> 0:02:43.669 for the Crown prosecution. She didn't need to say much 0:02:43.910 --> 0:02:46.990 as part of the hearing. Um, we heard the ventilation 0:02:46.990 --> 0:02:49.710 of what is just going to happen with Aaron Patterson's appeal. 0:02:49.950 --> 0:02:53.030 Yeah. And what we've spoken about with listeners before is 0:02:53.030 --> 0:02:55.750 that usually in Victoria, what happens is at the conclusion 0:02:55.750 --> 0:02:58.299 of a matter, usually a sentence. There's this 28 day 0:02:58.340 --> 0:03:01.340 clock that starts to count down, and that's for if 0:03:01.340 --> 0:03:04.100 there's going to be an appeal that appeal paperwork being 0:03:04.100 --> 0:03:07.060 lodged with the higher court, the Court of Appeal now 0:03:07.500 --> 0:03:10.940 very recently between Aaron Patterson being sentenced and where we 0:03:10.940 --> 0:03:14.660 are now, about two weeks ago, there was what's called 0:03:14.660 --> 0:03:17.900 a new practice direction, which is a trial that's been 0:03:17.900 --> 0:03:20.180 brought in. So this is going to be tested over 0:03:20.180 --> 0:03:23.580 around a year. And what it allows is instead of 0:03:23.580 --> 0:03:26.620 a 28 day period, an extra 28 day period. So 0:03:26.660 --> 0:03:31.980 56 total for applicants to get in their paperwork, submit 0:03:31.980 --> 0:03:36.260 officially and lodge that appeal without having to explain themselves. 0:03:36.300 --> 0:03:38.460 And Aaron, I might get you to talk a little 0:03:38.500 --> 0:03:41.700 bit more about the process as it was as we 0:03:41.700 --> 0:03:44.140 know it, with the way that people had to apply 0:03:44.180 --> 0:03:46.820 for more time. But it sort of all happens backwards. 0:03:46.820 --> 0:03:50.100 It does. It really does. So technically, what is normally 0:03:50.100 --> 0:03:51.980 supposed to happen is there's a bit of a 28 0:03:52.020 --> 0:03:56.610 day window from the date of sentence, which would have 0:03:56.650 --> 0:03:59.690 taken Aaron Patterson to midnight on October 6th. That her 0:03:59.690 --> 0:04:04.330 defense team had to file an intention to appeal conviction 0:04:04.330 --> 0:04:07.770 or sentence and or in. What happened then? I think 0:04:07.770 --> 0:04:10.090 it was about the 17th of September. The Chief Justice 0:04:10.090 --> 0:04:13.210 announced that there was going to be a trial, um, 0:04:13.250 --> 0:04:15.730 of a bit of a change, because what they were 0:04:15.730 --> 0:04:19.130 seeing was a lot of barristers having to apply for 0:04:19.130 --> 0:04:23.690 extra time outside of those 28 days to complete that paperwork, um, 0:04:23.730 --> 0:04:26.609 because there'd been a backlog. And so lots, lots of 0:04:26.610 --> 0:04:29.969 complaints had been raised or concerns, I probably should say 0:04:30.010 --> 0:04:34.289 concerns raised about meeting that deadline. So what this trial 0:04:34.490 --> 0:04:37.690 effectively does is instead of having to file an affidavit, 0:04:37.690 --> 0:04:41.050 penny explaining why you need extra time, why you should 0:04:41.050 --> 0:04:43.890 have perhaps an extra week or two to to file 0:04:43.890 --> 0:04:47.690 that documentation, you won't need to file that affidavit during 0:04:47.690 --> 0:04:50.930 this trial. Effectively, you'll be given a green light to 0:04:50.970 --> 0:04:54.690 have extra time, um, in order to do so. Now 0:04:54.730 --> 0:04:57.810 what happens typically is if you want an extension for 0:04:57.810 --> 0:05:01.250 your appeal before this trial, yes, you put in that application. 0:05:01.250 --> 0:05:04.529 We've seen it in other cases, like Greg Lynn, for example, Penny, 0:05:04.570 --> 0:05:08.930 where he filed his just outside his deadline. Um, there 0:05:08.930 --> 0:05:11.370 is often a bit of a risk there. Sometimes it 0:05:11.370 --> 0:05:13.850 can get to the Court of Appeal and they say, no, 0:05:13.850 --> 0:05:15.970 we won't give you an extension of time. Um, I mean, 0:05:15.970 --> 0:05:18.490 I've never seen that happen, but there is that risk. 0:05:18.490 --> 0:05:22.730 So what this change effectively does is give, um, barristers 0:05:22.770 --> 0:05:25.250 a green light to have an extra few weeks to 0:05:25.290 --> 0:05:26.930 prepare all their documentation. 0:05:26.930 --> 0:05:29.610 And it is confusing because we're talking there about a trial, 0:05:29.650 --> 0:05:32.050 but not a legal criminal trial in the way that 0:05:32.050 --> 0:05:35.490 we've seen Aaron Patterson facing being found guilty. But a 0:05:35.490 --> 0:05:37.810 trial is in a test to see if a system 0:05:37.810 --> 0:05:39.930 works a little bit better. And the way that the 0:05:39.930 --> 0:05:43.330 Court of Appeal system works is that once that paperwork 0:05:43.330 --> 0:05:47.529 is lodged, and essentially what the legal team is seeking 0:05:47.529 --> 0:05:50.850 is what's known as leave to appeal. And when it 0:05:50.850 --> 0:05:54.240 gets to the point that it's heard by the Court 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:56.839 of Appeal. That's three justices of the Court of Appeal, 0:05:56.839 --> 0:05:59.080 which we don't expect anything in the Court of Appeal 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:01.920 to move very quickly. At the moment everything's quite slow. 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:04.320 So this we're now looking in terms of a result 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:08.880 for Aaron Patterson's application. It will be probably a year 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:11.520 or well into next year before we know what's going on. 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:14.640 But what actually happens is despite the lodging of the 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:19.280 paperwork from an applicant, it then when the appeal is heard, 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:23.640 it's heard as the three justices first announcing and giving 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:26.039 a ruling on whether they'll actually grant the leave to appeal. 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:28.360 Now they can either say, yes, we're granting the leave 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:31.599 to appeal. And that means usually on that day, let's go. 0:06:31.640 --> 0:06:35.640 The appeal goes ahead. Or they can say, no, we're 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:37.680 going to throw it all out. We're not granting leave 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:40.440 to appeal. So there's no appeal hearing essentially at all. 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:42.640 But it all happens on that one day. And what 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:45.200 was happening as well with this extension of time is 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:47.520 the extension of time was being rolled into the leave 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:50.239 to appeal as well. So you'd say we want this 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:52.909 extra time, but you wouldn't hear back as to whether, yes, 0:06:52.910 --> 0:06:54.870 you were getting an extension of time. Yes, you could 0:06:54.870 --> 0:06:57.710 have your appeal until this particular day. So it does 0:06:57.710 --> 0:07:00.550 in a way simplify things going forward. But this is 0:07:00.550 --> 0:07:03.589 certainly the first major case that we've seen have have 0:07:03.589 --> 0:07:06.950 this happen under this, this very new test. And it 0:07:06.990 --> 0:07:09.270 has meant that it's been a little bit of a 0:07:09.270 --> 0:07:11.750 different day for all of the reporters and everyone getting 0:07:11.750 --> 0:07:14.950 their heads around this particular system. And I think what 0:07:14.950 --> 0:07:19.390 also has been the most, I guess, newsworthy or thing 0:07:19.390 --> 0:07:21.390 that people have been speaking about the most is that 0:07:21.430 --> 0:07:25.030 while we've seen Colin Mandy with Aaron Patterson all the 0:07:25.030 --> 0:07:27.670 way through this trial, speaking to her in the dock, 0:07:27.710 --> 0:07:29.470 he was sort of the face of the legal team, 0:07:29.510 --> 0:07:33.790 the voice of her defense. He wasn't there today. It 0:07:33.790 --> 0:07:37.270 was Richard Edney. But we understand there will actually be 0:07:37.270 --> 0:07:40.950 a fourth barrister representing Aaron Patterson when it comes to 0:07:40.990 --> 0:07:45.310 this appeal. We have confirmed that Julian McMahon SC, a 0:07:45.310 --> 0:07:48.670 very well-known criminal barrister and known for his human rights 0:07:48.670 --> 0:07:52.350 work as well, will be representing her in her appeal 0:07:52.350 --> 0:07:55.390 at this stage. Now, while he wasn't in court today, 0:07:55.510 --> 0:07:58.430 he is going to be taking the appeal forward. And 0:07:58.790 --> 0:08:02.750 Julian McMahon has got a very, very long history in 0:08:02.750 --> 0:08:05.550 the criminal law in Victoria. He's been practicing for, I think, 0:08:05.550 --> 0:08:08.870 nearly 20 years, and that is his his main work 0:08:08.910 --> 0:08:13.470 as a criminal defence barrister. However, what people most notably 0:08:13.470 --> 0:08:16.150 probably will know him for is the work that he's 0:08:16.150 --> 0:08:20.390 done overseas for Australians who have been convicted of smuggling 0:08:20.390 --> 0:08:23.430 drugs and some facing the death penalty. He did represent 0:08:23.430 --> 0:08:27.830 some of the Bali Nine. He's also worked on another 0:08:27.830 --> 0:08:30.350 case in Singapore as well, so people will have seen 0:08:30.350 --> 0:08:34.350 headlines today around Aaron Patterson being represented by Julian McMahon. 0:08:34.390 --> 0:08:36.790 We do understand that is the case as we head 0:08:36.790 --> 0:08:39.670 towards an appeal, but that appeal is yet to be 0:08:39.670 --> 0:08:40.550 formally lodged. Yeah. 0:08:40.590 --> 0:08:42.870 And this is we're talking sort of senior barristers here. 0:08:42.910 --> 0:08:46.470 Often you'll have a senior and a junior barrister during 0:08:46.750 --> 0:08:50.860 a trial depending on how complicated or or serious these 0:08:50.860 --> 0:08:53.459 cases can be. You can see more and more joining 0:08:53.460 --> 0:08:56.059 the team. And we also had Sophie Stafford, as you know, 0:08:56.100 --> 0:08:59.819 Penny during the trial there working alongside Colin Mandy. She 0:08:59.820 --> 0:09:03.340 was also absent from court. And so again was Annette 0:09:03.380 --> 0:09:07.340 Rogers for the Crown prosecution. Um, but we had largely 0:09:07.340 --> 0:09:10.819 the same face as otherwise in court. Um, the informant 0:09:10.820 --> 0:09:13.860 was there. A lot of other members of the homicide 0:09:13.860 --> 0:09:16.699 squad also attended the hearing? Um, there were a couple 0:09:16.700 --> 0:09:18.699 of members of the public. I could see, um, in 0:09:18.700 --> 0:09:22.140 the gallery overhead, but largely press. Um, we're all pretty 0:09:22.140 --> 0:09:25.500 much shoulder to shoulder in that courtroom, um, getting our 0:09:25.500 --> 0:09:28.260 heads around all of this new information. Um, you know, 0:09:28.300 --> 0:09:31.020 the explanation of how an appeal works can probably have 0:09:31.020 --> 0:09:33.820 a lot of our listeners heads spinning. Um, it is 0:09:33.820 --> 0:09:38.620 incredibly complicated. And because it is complicated, um, and it's really, 0:09:38.620 --> 0:09:42.020 really high stakes. Um, it does take time. Um, it 0:09:42.020 --> 0:09:44.460 does take time for everybody to file paperwork, Penny. And 0:09:44.460 --> 0:09:47.290 it does take time for it to get before the court. 0:09:47.290 --> 0:09:49.770 We know with the Greg Lynn appeal, which is coming 0:09:49.770 --> 0:09:52.890 up soon. You know, that's about 12 months since his, um, 0:09:52.970 --> 0:09:56.850 date of sentencing. Um, when we've seen others typically follow 0:09:56.850 --> 0:10:00.610 the same timeline. Um, one might expect that if a 0:10:00.610 --> 0:10:03.929 person is appealing a conviction rather than a sentence, that 0:10:03.929 --> 0:10:06.569 maybe they would get priority. Um, we don't really know 0:10:06.570 --> 0:10:10.690 how things work behind the scenes at the Court of Appeal, but, um, 0:10:10.730 --> 0:10:13.089 it's very, very common for people to appeal. But that 0:10:13.090 --> 0:10:15.330 doesn't mean it's easy, and it does not mean at 0:10:15.330 --> 0:10:18.290 all that it's straightforward. It's just another one of these 0:10:18.290 --> 0:10:20.890 twists and turns in this case, Penny, as we we're 0:10:20.890 --> 0:10:23.530 all trying to follow what's going on, and we really 0:10:23.530 --> 0:10:25.610 don't know the next date that she will be back 0:10:25.610 --> 0:10:28.130 in court. Um, there could be other things going on. 0:10:28.130 --> 0:10:30.770 We know the restraining order on her house is something 0:10:30.770 --> 0:10:35.130 that's are still alive issue. Um, and that's got us 0:10:35.170 --> 0:10:39.690 really looking at whether or not, um, legal Aid will 0:10:39.690 --> 0:10:43.250 come in now to fund an appeal. The higher you 0:10:43.290 --> 0:10:45.730 go in a court, sometimes the more difficult it can 0:10:45.730 --> 0:10:49.370 be to obtain legal aid funding. But, um, if she 0:10:49.370 --> 0:10:53.530 hasn't got any funds, um, and no, um, accessible assets, 0:10:53.570 --> 0:10:56.130 it seems common sense that she would be going down 0:10:56.130 --> 0:10:57.130 a legal aid route. 0:10:57.130 --> 0:10:59.209 And we know that there was a public ad put 0:10:59.210 --> 0:11:01.170 out by one of her friends trying to sell her 0:11:01.170 --> 0:11:04.210 car a little while ago, the red M.G. that everyone's 0:11:04.210 --> 0:11:06.610 seen in a lot of that footage where she stopped 0:11:06.610 --> 0:11:09.210 and spoke to the media the first and really only 0:11:09.210 --> 0:11:12.930 time before she was charged. And we don't, um, as 0:11:12.929 --> 0:11:15.730 you say, know exactly where the access to money is 0:11:15.730 --> 0:11:18.410 at the moment because there's the restraining order to stop 0:11:18.530 --> 0:11:20.970 any sale of the Leongatha property. And we would expect 0:11:20.970 --> 0:11:23.810 that extends to starting to extend to some other assets 0:11:23.809 --> 0:11:26.530 as well. So people do have the ability to apply 0:11:26.530 --> 0:11:29.090 for legal aid. That's not something that occurs in a 0:11:29.090 --> 0:11:33.290 public courtroom. It's it's basically an application to a board. 0:11:33.330 --> 0:11:36.890 And there are different, um, circumstances taken into consideration and 0:11:36.890 --> 0:11:39.370 different things that have to be met and decided on there. 0:11:39.370 --> 0:11:44.010 But she's also just celebrated her second birthday behind bars, too. 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:45.960 She's just turned 51. 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:50.120 Yeah. On the 30th of September. Penny, um, was the 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:53.520 marking of her 51st birthday. So it's been a week 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:57.080 of events for this triple murderer. We don't know anything 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:00.680 about how she would have celebrated, um, or not her 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:03.960 birthday while she's in custody. We did see her briefly 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:07.360 on the video link. Um, when she appeared in court 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:11.800 for this brief hearing. Um, she was wearing a blue windcheater, 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:16.280 which is what they women commonly wear in Dame Phyllis Frost, centre. And, um, 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:19.040 she was sitting at the same, um, table that she 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:21.800 normally does, staring out the window for a lot of 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:24.120 the hearing. We didn't get much of a reaction from her. 0:12:24.160 --> 0:12:26.400 It's not unusual at all, Penny, but this was, as 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:28.880 you said earlier in this episode, um, a hearing that 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:31.400 only went for a couple of minutes. Um, a very 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:34.480 important hearing, but one that was over very, very quickly. 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:37.520 And it's now, um, I guess, up to us to 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:40.320 watch and and wait and find out whether or not 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:44.350 those appeal documents get lodged. Yes. They said today. Um, 0:12:44.350 --> 0:12:47.510 they have an intention to appeal the conviction. But until 0:12:47.510 --> 0:12:50.949 that paperwork is lodged, Penny, um, you never know what 0:12:50.950 --> 0:12:54.710 is going to happen. So 56 days will be the 0:12:54.710 --> 0:12:57.990 maximum time at the moment. Um, they've indicated that they 0:12:57.990 --> 0:13:00.750 will need, um, but we'll be checking in with the 0:13:00.750 --> 0:13:03.190 court every day quite regularly to find out if and 0:13:03.190 --> 0:13:03.910 when that occurs. 0:13:03.950 --> 0:13:06.750 We'll be back with more after this. And as to 0:13:06.790 --> 0:13:10.069 what grounds Aaron Patterson might appeal her conviction on. A 0:13:10.070 --> 0:13:12.950 lot of people have said to me, this looks pretty, 0:13:12.990 --> 0:13:15.630 you know, water tight from the outside. How could she 0:13:15.670 --> 0:13:18.430 possibly try and say now that she's not guilty after 0:13:18.429 --> 0:13:21.830 this jury verdict? The system allows for for an appeal. 0:13:21.830 --> 0:13:24.670 It depends, obviously, on what grounds the defence can put 0:13:24.670 --> 0:13:27.590 to the Court of Appeal whether those justices allow it 0:13:27.590 --> 0:13:30.510 to go forward. They will have to find points of law, 0:13:30.790 --> 0:13:34.829 different things to, um, build an appeal on essentially to 0:13:34.870 --> 0:13:37.350 try and get that leave to to launch that hearing 0:13:37.350 --> 0:13:40.550 in the first place. And when we do see the 0:13:40.550 --> 0:13:44.670 paperwork lodged, which we are expecting around early November. That 0:13:44.670 --> 0:13:47.350 should give us some indication as to what her legal 0:13:47.350 --> 0:13:49.950 team want to try and rely on to try and 0:13:49.990 --> 0:13:53.950 have these convictions and the jury decisions. Relooked at. As 0:13:53.990 --> 0:13:56.750 for a sentence appeal, that can happen as well. They've 0:13:56.750 --> 0:13:59.350 not indicated at this point that they would appeal that 0:13:59.350 --> 0:14:02.950 life sentence with a 33 year non-parole period. However, there 0:14:02.950 --> 0:14:06.230 have been reports that the Director of Public Prosecutions, the 0:14:06.230 --> 0:14:09.630 prosecution team, whether they would look to appeal that sentence, they, 0:14:09.670 --> 0:14:13.750 of course, argued initially that Aaron Paterson should be jailed 0:14:13.750 --> 0:14:16.429 for life without the possibility of parole. We know if 0:14:16.429 --> 0:14:18.270 that had happened, she would only be the second woman 0:14:18.270 --> 0:14:21.150 in Australia ever given that sentence. It wasn't what happened 0:14:21.150 --> 0:14:21.910 in the end. 0:14:21.950 --> 0:14:24.790 I spoke to the Office of Public Prosecutions earlier this 0:14:24.790 --> 0:14:27.470 week about what their their plans were, and they said 0:14:27.470 --> 0:14:30.030 that they haven't yet made a decision. So we know 0:14:30.030 --> 0:14:32.670 that they've got until midnight on the 6th of October, 0:14:32.670 --> 0:14:36.590 2025 to file those documents. So the earliest we would 0:14:36.590 --> 0:14:39.070 find out is the following morning, the Tuesday morning on 0:14:39.070 --> 0:14:41.820 the 7th of October, whether or not they did decide. 0:14:41.820 --> 0:14:44.700 But they did send me a statement this week saying, um, 0:14:44.700 --> 0:14:47.500 that they were still, you know, considering it. But they 0:14:47.500 --> 0:14:51.900 hadn't made a formal decision yet. So the clock is ticking. Penny, 0:14:51.940 --> 0:14:54.780 there's only I'm counting on my calendar now, a couple 0:14:54.820 --> 0:14:57.140 of sleeps, um, that they've got. And we know that 0:14:57.140 --> 0:15:00.460 the weekend is fast approaching. Um, so we would hope 0:15:00.460 --> 0:15:03.220 to know within a number of days if the OP 0:15:03.420 --> 0:15:06.780 also would like to join, um, the same rung and 0:15:06.780 --> 0:15:08.940 go down in the appeal route as well, or whether 0:15:08.940 --> 0:15:11.980 or not they will accept the sentence that was handed down. 0:15:11.980 --> 0:15:14.180 And we do know just from speaking with people in 0:15:14.180 --> 0:15:16.980 the legal profession today, conversations that I've had it certainly 0:15:16.980 --> 0:15:20.700 the feeling amongst, uh, criminal lawyers that it is more 0:15:20.740 --> 0:15:25.620 unusual to get an appeal from the prosecution side on 0:15:25.620 --> 0:15:27.740 a sentence. And a lot of that's because they have 0:15:27.740 --> 0:15:30.580 to take a lot of different things into consideration between 0:15:30.620 --> 0:15:33.980 they refer to them as stakeholders, but basically victims families, 0:15:33.980 --> 0:15:37.500 police and and ultimately it's up to the director to decide, 0:15:37.740 --> 0:15:41.650 do we go forward on a, on another, uh, hearing essentially, 0:15:41.650 --> 0:15:44.010 and all the work and time and money that goes 0:15:44.010 --> 0:15:47.410 into that or will we accept this? And whereas we 0:15:47.410 --> 0:15:51.090 do see a little bit more regularly, um, accused and 0:15:51.090 --> 0:15:55.410 then convicted people appealing either against their sentence or conviction, 0:15:55.410 --> 0:15:58.010 which they're certainly allowed to put those appeals to the 0:15:58.010 --> 0:16:00.450 Court of Appeal. But those three justices have to make 0:16:00.450 --> 0:16:04.530 the decision as to whether they're worthy of an appeal 0:16:04.530 --> 0:16:08.050 in the circumstances or it can't just be, I don't 0:16:08.050 --> 0:16:09.890 like it. I insist I'm innocent. 0:16:09.930 --> 0:16:11.810 Yeah. And we've seen a lot of lawyer X related 0:16:11.810 --> 0:16:15.130 appeals and a, like, um, starting to pop up in 0:16:15.130 --> 0:16:17.410 the Court of Appeal in the last couple of years. 0:16:17.650 --> 0:16:20.050 And often we'll walk in and we'll sit down ready 0:16:20.050 --> 0:16:23.010 to hear whether or not a person's been granted an appeal. 0:16:23.010 --> 0:16:27.450 And it's, uh, no appeal, denied sentence or conviction. Whatever 0:16:27.450 --> 0:16:29.970 it is you've applied for, denied. And the hearing is 0:16:29.970 --> 0:16:31.450 over within about 25 seconds. 0:16:31.690 --> 0:16:32.290 It's so fast. 0:16:32.690 --> 0:16:35.130 The seat you've sat down on isn't even warm. You know, 0:16:35.170 --> 0:16:38.290 the leather seats you sit down on? um. You're there. 0:16:38.290 --> 0:16:41.530 You've barely unpacked your handbag, getting out your laptop, and 0:16:41.530 --> 0:16:44.690 all of a sudden, um, everybody in the room's built up. 0:16:44.690 --> 0:16:47.570 All of this feeling and emotion and anxiety of what's 0:16:47.570 --> 0:16:50.810 going to happen, including the accused, who usually appears via 0:16:50.810 --> 0:16:54.290 video link, not knowing what their fate is going to be. 0:16:54.330 --> 0:16:57.490 I mean, the Court of Appeal hold such power and 0:16:57.490 --> 0:17:01.250 such important power in their hands, deciding whether or not 0:17:01.250 --> 0:17:03.370 somebody could potentially spend the rest of their life in 0:17:03.370 --> 0:17:06.929 prison or walk free that day. Um, it's such an 0:17:06.930 --> 0:17:10.850 important process, such a high stakes process. And yeah, sometimes 0:17:10.850 --> 0:17:14.050 it's just over super quick. Other times the hearing might 0:17:14.050 --> 0:17:16.209 go for half an hour or an hour or so. 0:17:16.410 --> 0:17:19.730 Sometimes an appeal can run for weeks or months. It's 0:17:19.770 --> 0:17:22.770 you just never know. And I imagine that's very stressful 0:17:22.770 --> 0:17:25.850 for any legal team. On the prosecution or defense side 0:17:25.850 --> 0:17:27.730 that that ends up in the Court of Appeal because 0:17:27.730 --> 0:17:30.209 like us, you really don't know a which way it's 0:17:30.210 --> 0:17:31.530 going to go. And B, how long are you going 0:17:31.570 --> 0:17:33.970 to be in that court for? And if it blows 0:17:33.970 --> 0:17:36.359 out to months and you end up seeing retrials and 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:40.199 things like that. That does occur. Um, yeah. That's a 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:41.760 that's a lot of time and a lot of effort. 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:45.120 And they certainly are those, those real unknown days, like 0:17:45.119 --> 0:17:47.760 you're saying, Erin, because the teams that are coming to 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:49.679 the bench, they have to be prepared for it to 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:51.720 go either way. So they need to either be ready 0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:55.440 to stand up and argue and speak. And the three 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:58.879 Court of Appeal justices, whoever they are presiding over each case, 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:03.280 will often have multiple questions for, uh, different legal representatives 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:05.680 as they go through their arguments. Or, as you said, 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:09.200 they can be over so, so quickly. And in those circumstances, 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:13.440 we tend not to receive any reasons publicly. It's just, yes, 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:15.880 it's going ahead or no. And we either hear the 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:18.560 appeal or we don't. So we certainly don't expect to 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:21.919 see if this sort of goes a lot further. Anything 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:26.359 really fleshed out in a legal argument sense publicly, uh, 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:28.879 for up to a year's time, or at least certainly 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:30.440 months and well into next year. 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:32.879 Yeah. Another big question that I've had a lot of 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:35.750 people asking me about as well. Penny is what's going 0:18:35.790 --> 0:18:38.550 to happen with the civil side of things. Is anybody 0:18:38.550 --> 0:18:41.550 going to get compensation? Will her kids, will Ian Wilkinson, 0:18:41.590 --> 0:18:44.629 the families? Um, anybody related to them going to get 0:18:44.630 --> 0:18:46.550 any sort of compensation? Will it come from the House? 0:18:46.550 --> 0:18:49.830 What will that look like? It's still early days. Um, 0:18:49.830 --> 0:18:52.430 we know that the restraining order does remain on the house, 0:18:52.430 --> 0:18:55.710 but there certainly hasn't been any public progression in what's 0:18:55.710 --> 0:18:59.550 happening with that either. Perhaps that will, um, be put 0:18:59.550 --> 0:19:01.910 on ice a little bit, um, while the appeal is 0:19:01.910 --> 0:19:04.669 going on. That's typically what I've seen happen in the past. 0:19:04.950 --> 0:19:07.510 But certainly if we see or hear anything in that regard, 0:19:07.550 --> 0:19:09.709 we'll we'll bring our listeners those updates as soon as 0:19:09.710 --> 0:19:10.470 we have them. 0:19:10.470 --> 0:19:13.830 Yeah. And it's certainly just another sort of reminder after 0:19:13.830 --> 0:19:16.310 the last time we spoke, Ian Wilkinson standing on those 0:19:16.310 --> 0:19:21.070 steps outside the court, being noticeably relieved, I think, I 0:19:21.109 --> 0:19:23.550 guess that at least this part of the process was 0:19:23.550 --> 0:19:26.950 over in the sentencing. But so often in the legal world, 0:19:26.950 --> 0:19:29.590 things are not over when when you think that they 0:19:29.590 --> 0:19:33.910 are over in terms of victims families and people on 0:19:33.950 --> 0:19:37.750 that side. So it's certainly just a reminder that how 0:19:37.750 --> 0:19:40.710 far there can be to go for things to still 0:19:40.710 --> 0:19:45.350 be continually coming around and reminding people of what's happened, 0:19:45.390 --> 0:19:48.469 whether there's anywhere to go further than the Court of 0:19:48.470 --> 0:19:50.550 Appeal remains to be seen. There is, of course, the 0:19:50.550 --> 0:19:52.710 High Court in Australia, but at this point I think 0:19:52.710 --> 0:19:55.030 it's very much focused just on the Court of Appeal 0:19:55.070 --> 0:19:58.270 sort of being a last ditch attempt by Aaron Paterson, 0:19:58.270 --> 0:20:02.189 who she's in solitary confinement for life at this point. 0:20:02.230 --> 0:20:03.990 There's there's not a lot else for her to do 0:20:04.030 --> 0:20:06.590 or look forward to. But thank you for listening to 0:20:06.630 --> 0:20:09.470 this episode of say Grace. Please press the follow button 0:20:09.470 --> 0:20:11.550 in your app to get our next episodes as soon 0:20:11.550 --> 0:20:12.469 as we publish. 0:20:12.750 --> 0:20:14.990 For more reporting on the case, check out The Age 0:20:14.990 --> 0:20:17.030 of nine news in your browser or App Store. 0:20:17.070 --> 0:20:19.389 We'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land 0:20:19.390 --> 0:20:22.270 that this podcast was recorded on, and wherever you're listening 0:20:22.310 --> 0:20:25.270 to it now, say Grace is created and hosted by me, 0:20:25.310 --> 0:20:26.310 Penelope Leach. 0:20:26.350 --> 0:20:27.629 And me, Aaron Pearson. 0:20:27.950 --> 0:20:30.350 This podcast is produced by Genevieve Rule.