S1: Nine podcasts.
S2: In this episode, for the first time, Erin Patterson's legal
S2: team states their intention to appeal her convictions for three
S2: counts of murder and one count of attempted murder. Plus,
S2: she has two new barristers on her side.
S3: Erin Patterson is a murderer. She invited her in-laws to
S3: lunch and dished up that now infamous beef Wellington laced
S3: with poisonous mushrooms.
S4: I have a concern regarding a patient that is potentially
S4: exposed to a fatal toxin from mushroom poisoning. What's her name?
S4: Last name is Patterson. First name Erin.
S5: The mother of two has been exposed for who she
S5: really is a triple murderer.
S6: Three people have died, and we've had a person that
S6: nearly died and was seriously injured.
S3: Justice has been served.
S2: The jury giving a very strong four unanimous guilty verdicts today.
S7: I had eyes on her as the four women stood
S7: up and read out guilty for different times to all
S7: four charges.
S2: Finding she did have the intent to harm her estranged
S2: husband's in-laws and to kill them.
S8: Some of the best people I've ever met, they never
S8: did anything wrong to me, and I'm so devastated about
S8: what's happened.
S2: Those 12 jurors, the people who sealed her fate after
S2: a ten week trial. But ultimately they found that she's
S2: a liar and they found her guilty. Well, we weren't
S2: expecting to see Aaron Patterson again or be back in
S2: court for her case just a month after she was sentenced. Aaron.
S2: But that's exactly what's happened here in Melbourne today.
S9: That's right. Continuing on from the unpredictable trial and all
S9: the twists and turns, once again, there's been, um, another
S9: update that we can bring our listeners.
S2: And this was a very, very short court hearing. It
S2: went for about three minutes in total. But first of all,
S2: representing Aaron Patterson is her third barrister since she's been charged.
S2: And it wasn't Colin Mandy who everyone got to know
S2: through the trial period, a barrister called Richard Edney. Now,
S2: he also confirmed for the first time that Aaron Patterson
S2: will be appealing against her convictions.
S9: That's right. Richard Edney walked into court today to speak
S9: with Justice Christopher Beale, and he walked in alongside Aaron
S9: Patterson's solicitors. They've been her solicitors from the very beginning,
S9: Bill Doig and Ophelia Holloway. Um, but, uh, as he
S9: walked in, he was, you know, very sharp suit, very
S9: well presented man strutted straight in like he knew what
S9: he needed to do and took a seat at the
S9: bar table on the other side. We had Jane Warren
S9: for the Crown prosecution. She didn't need to say much
S9: as part of the hearing. Um, we heard the ventilation
S9: of what is just going to happen with Aaron Patterson's appeal.
S2: Yeah. And what we've spoken about with listeners before is
S2: that usually in Victoria, what happens is at the conclusion
S2: of a matter, usually a sentence. There's this 28 day
S2: clock that starts to count down, and that's for if
S2: there's going to be an appeal that appeal paperwork being
S2: lodged with the higher court, the Court of Appeal now
S2: very recently between Aaron Patterson being sentenced and where we
S2: are now, about two weeks ago, there was what's called
S2: a new practice direction, which is a trial that's been
S2: brought in. So this is going to be tested over
S2: around a year. And what it allows is instead of
S2: a 28 day period, an extra 28 day period. So
S2: 56 total for applicants to get in their paperwork, submit
S2: officially and lodge that appeal without having to explain themselves.
S2: And Aaron, I might get you to talk a little
S2: bit more about the process as it was as we
S2: know it, with the way that people had to apply
S2: for more time. But it sort of all happens backwards.
S9: It does. It really does. So technically, what is normally
S9: supposed to happen is there's a bit of a 28
S9: day window from the date of sentence, which would have
S9: taken Aaron Patterson to midnight on October 6th. That her
S9: defense team had to file an intention to appeal conviction
S9: or sentence and or in. What happened then? I think
S9: it was about the 17th of September. The Chief Justice
S9: announced that there was going to be a trial, um,
S9: of a bit of a change, because what they were
S9: seeing was a lot of barristers having to apply for
S9: extra time outside of those 28 days to complete that paperwork, um,
S9: because there'd been a backlog. And so lots, lots of
S9: complaints had been raised or concerns, I probably should say
S9: concerns raised about meeting that deadline. So what this trial
S9: effectively does is instead of having to file an affidavit,
S9: penny explaining why you need extra time, why you should
S9: have perhaps an extra week or two to to file
S9: that documentation, you won't need to file that affidavit during
S9: this trial. Effectively, you'll be given a green light to
S9: have extra time, um, in order to do so. Now
S9: what happens typically is if you want an extension for
S9: your appeal before this trial, yes, you put in that application.
S9: We've seen it in other cases, like Greg Lynn, for example, Penny,
S9: where he filed his just outside his deadline. Um, there
S9: is often a bit of a risk there. Sometimes it
S9: can get to the Court of Appeal and they say, no,
S9: we won't give you an extension of time. Um, I mean,
S9: I've never seen that happen, but there is that risk.
S9: So what this change effectively does is give, um, barristers
S9: a green light to have an extra few weeks to
S9: prepare all their documentation.
S2: And it is confusing because we're talking there about a trial,
S2: but not a legal criminal trial in the way that
S2: we've seen Aaron Patterson facing being found guilty. But a
S2: trial is in a test to see if a system
S2: works a little bit better. And the way that the
S2: Court of Appeal system works is that once that paperwork
S2: is lodged, and essentially what the legal team is seeking
S2: is what's known as leave to appeal. And when it
S2: gets to the point that it's heard by the Court
S2: of Appeal. That's three justices of the Court of Appeal,
S2: which we don't expect anything in the Court of Appeal
S2: to move very quickly. At the moment everything's quite slow.
S2: So this we're now looking in terms of a result
S2: for Aaron Patterson's application. It will be probably a year
S2: or well into next year before we know what's going on.
S2: But what actually happens is despite the lodging of the
S2: paperwork from an applicant, it then when the appeal is heard,
S2: it's heard as the three justices first announcing and giving
S2: a ruling on whether they'll actually grant the leave to appeal.
S2: Now they can either say, yes, we're granting the leave
S2: to appeal. And that means usually on that day, let's go.
S2: The appeal goes ahead. Or they can say, no, we're
S2: going to throw it all out. We're not granting leave
S2: to appeal. So there's no appeal hearing essentially at all.
S2: But it all happens on that one day. And what
S2: was happening as well with this extension of time is
S2: the extension of time was being rolled into the leave
S2: to appeal as well. So you'd say we want this
S2: extra time, but you wouldn't hear back as to whether, yes,
S2: you were getting an extension of time. Yes, you could
S2: have your appeal until this particular day. So it does
S2: in a way simplify things going forward. But this is
S2: certainly the first major case that we've seen have have
S2: this happen under this, this very new test. And it
S2: has meant that it's been a little bit of a
S2: different day for all of the reporters and everyone getting
S2: their heads around this particular system. And I think what
S2: also has been the most, I guess, newsworthy or thing
S2: that people have been speaking about the most is that
S2: while we've seen Colin Mandy with Aaron Patterson all the
S2: way through this trial, speaking to her in the dock,
S2: he was sort of the face of the legal team,
S2: the voice of her defense. He wasn't there today. It
S2: was Richard Edney. But we understand there will actually be
S2: a fourth barrister representing Aaron Patterson when it comes to
S2: this appeal. We have confirmed that Julian McMahon SC, a
S2: very well-known criminal barrister and known for his human rights
S2: work as well, will be representing her in her appeal
S2: at this stage. Now, while he wasn't in court today,
S2: he is going to be taking the appeal forward. And
S2: Julian McMahon has got a very, very long history in
S2: the criminal law in Victoria. He's been practicing for, I think,
S2: nearly 20 years, and that is his his main work
S2: as a criminal defence barrister. However, what people most notably
S2: probably will know him for is the work that he's
S2: done overseas for Australians who have been convicted of smuggling
S2: drugs and some facing the death penalty. He did represent
S2: some of the Bali Nine. He's also worked on another
S2: case in Singapore as well, so people will have seen
S2: headlines today around Aaron Patterson being represented by Julian McMahon.
S2: We do understand that is the case as we head
S2: towards an appeal, but that appeal is yet to be
S2: formally lodged. Yeah.
S9: And this is we're talking sort of senior barristers here.
S9: Often you'll have a senior and a junior barrister during
S9: a trial depending on how complicated or or serious these
S9: cases can be. You can see more and more joining
S9: the team. And we also had Sophie Stafford, as you know,
S9: Penny during the trial there working alongside Colin Mandy. She
S9: was also absent from court. And so again was Annette
S9: Rogers for the Crown prosecution. Um, but we had largely
S9: the same face as otherwise in court. Um, the informant
S9: was there. A lot of other members of the homicide
S9: squad also attended the hearing? Um, there were a couple
S9: of members of the public. I could see, um, in
S9: the gallery overhead, but largely press. Um, we're all pretty
S9: much shoulder to shoulder in that courtroom, um, getting our
S9: heads around all of this new information. Um, you know,
S9: the explanation of how an appeal works can probably have
S9: a lot of our listeners heads spinning. Um, it is
S9: incredibly complicated. And because it is complicated, um, and it's really,
S9: really high stakes. Um, it does take time. Um, it
S9: does take time for everybody to file paperwork, Penny. And
S9: it does take time for it to get before the court.
S9: We know with the Greg Lynn appeal, which is coming
S9: up soon. You know, that's about 12 months since his, um,
S9: date of sentencing. Um, when we've seen others typically follow
S9: the same timeline. Um, one might expect that if a
S9: person is appealing a conviction rather than a sentence, that
S9: maybe they would get priority. Um, we don't really know
S9: how things work behind the scenes at the Court of Appeal, but, um,
S9: it's very, very common for people to appeal. But that
S9: doesn't mean it's easy, and it does not mean at
S9: all that it's straightforward. It's just another one of these
S9: twists and turns in this case, Penny, as we we're
S9: all trying to follow what's going on, and we really
S9: don't know the next date that she will be back
S9: in court. Um, there could be other things going on.
S9: We know the restraining order on her house is something
S9: that's are still alive issue. Um, and that's got us
S9: really looking at whether or not, um, legal Aid will
S9: come in now to fund an appeal. The higher you
S9: go in a court, sometimes the more difficult it can
S9: be to obtain legal aid funding. But, um, if she
S9: hasn't got any funds, um, and no, um, accessible assets,
S9: it seems common sense that she would be going down
S9: a legal aid route.
S2: And we know that there was a public ad put
S2: out by one of her friends trying to sell her
S2: car a little while ago, the red M.G. that everyone's
S2: seen in a lot of that footage where she stopped
S2: and spoke to the media the first and really only
S2: time before she was charged. And we don't, um, as
S2: you say, know exactly where the access to money is
S2: at the moment because there's the restraining order to stop
S2: any sale of the Leongatha property. And we would expect
S2: that extends to starting to extend to some other assets
S2: as well. So people do have the ability to apply
S2: for legal aid. That's not something that occurs in a
S2: public courtroom. It's it's basically an application to a board.
S2: And there are different, um, circumstances taken into consideration and
S2: different things that have to be met and decided on there.
S2: But she's also just celebrated her second birthday behind bars, too.
S2: She's just turned 51.
S9: Yeah. On the 30th of September. Penny, um, was the
S9: marking of her 51st birthday. So it's been a week
S9: of events for this triple murderer. We don't know anything
S9: about how she would have celebrated, um, or not her
S9: birthday while she's in custody. We did see her briefly
S9: on the video link. Um, when she appeared in court
S9: for this brief hearing. Um, she was wearing a blue windcheater,
S9: which is what they women commonly wear in Dame Phyllis Frost, centre. And, um,
S9: she was sitting at the same, um, table that she
S9: normally does, staring out the window for a lot of
S9: the hearing. We didn't get much of a reaction from her.
S9: It's not unusual at all, Penny, but this was, as
S9: you said earlier in this episode, um, a hearing that
S9: only went for a couple of minutes. Um, a very
S9: important hearing, but one that was over very, very quickly.
S9: And it's now, um, I guess, up to us to
S9: watch and and wait and find out whether or not
S9: those appeal documents get lodged. Yes. They said today. Um,
S9: they have an intention to appeal the conviction. But until
S9: that paperwork is lodged, Penny, um, you never know what
S9: is going to happen. So 56 days will be the
S9: maximum time at the moment. Um, they've indicated that they
S9: will need, um, but we'll be checking in with the
S9: court every day quite regularly to find out if and
S9: when that occurs.
S2: We'll be back with more after this. And as to
S2: what grounds Aaron Patterson might appeal her conviction on. A
S2: lot of people have said to me, this looks pretty,
S2: you know, water tight from the outside. How could she
S2: possibly try and say now that she's not guilty after
S2: this jury verdict? The system allows for for an appeal.
S2: It depends, obviously, on what grounds the defence can put
S2: to the Court of Appeal whether those justices allow it
S2: to go forward. They will have to find points of law,
S2: different things to, um, build an appeal on essentially to
S2: try and get that leave to to launch that hearing
S2: in the first place. And when we do see the
S2: paperwork lodged, which we are expecting around early November. That
S2: should give us some indication as to what her legal
S2: team want to try and rely on to try and
S2: have these convictions and the jury decisions. Relooked at. As
S2: for a sentence appeal, that can happen as well. They've
S2: not indicated at this point that they would appeal that
S2: life sentence with a 33 year non-parole period. However, there
S2: have been reports that the Director of Public Prosecutions, the
S2: prosecution team, whether they would look to appeal that sentence, they,
S2: of course, argued initially that Aaron Paterson should be jailed
S2: for life without the possibility of parole. We know if
S2: that had happened, she would only be the second woman
S2: in Australia ever given that sentence. It wasn't what happened
S2: in the end.
S9: I spoke to the Office of Public Prosecutions earlier this
S9: week about what their their plans were, and they said
S9: that they haven't yet made a decision. So we know
S9: that they've got until midnight on the 6th of October,
S9: 2025 to file those documents. So the earliest we would
S9: find out is the following morning, the Tuesday morning on
S9: the 7th of October, whether or not they did decide.
S9: But they did send me a statement this week saying, um,
S9: that they were still, you know, considering it. But they
S9: hadn't made a formal decision yet. So the clock is ticking. Penny,
S9: there's only I'm counting on my calendar now, a couple
S9: of sleeps, um, that they've got. And we know that
S9: the weekend is fast approaching. Um, so we would hope
S9: to know within a number of days if the OP
S9: also would like to join, um, the same rung and
S9: go down in the appeal route as well, or whether
S9: or not they will accept the sentence that was handed down.
S2: And we do know just from speaking with people in
S2: the legal profession today, conversations that I've had it certainly
S2: the feeling amongst, uh, criminal lawyers that it is more
S2: unusual to get an appeal from the prosecution side on
S2: a sentence. And a lot of that's because they have
S2: to take a lot of different things into consideration between
S2: they refer to them as stakeholders, but basically victims families,
S2: police and and ultimately it's up to the director to decide,
S2: do we go forward on a, on another, uh, hearing essentially,
S2: and all the work and time and money that goes
S2: into that or will we accept this? And whereas we
S2: do see a little bit more regularly, um, accused and
S2: then convicted people appealing either against their sentence or conviction,
S2: which they're certainly allowed to put those appeals to the
S2: Court of Appeal. But those three justices have to make
S2: the decision as to whether they're worthy of an appeal
S2: in the circumstances or it can't just be, I don't
S2: like it. I insist I'm innocent.
S9: Yeah. And we've seen a lot of lawyer X related
S9: appeals and a, like, um, starting to pop up in
S9: the Court of Appeal in the last couple of years.
S9: And often we'll walk in and we'll sit down ready
S9: to hear whether or not a person's been granted an appeal.
S9: And it's, uh, no appeal, denied sentence or conviction. Whatever
S9: it is you've applied for, denied. And the hearing is
S9: over within about 25 seconds.
S2: It's so fast.
S9: The seat you've sat down on isn't even warm. You know,
S9: the leather seats you sit down on? um. You're there.
S9: You've barely unpacked your handbag, getting out your laptop, and
S9: all of a sudden, um, everybody in the room's built up.
S9: All of this feeling and emotion and anxiety of what's
S9: going to happen, including the accused, who usually appears via
S9: video link, not knowing what their fate is going to be.
S9: I mean, the Court of Appeal hold such power and
S9: such important power in their hands, deciding whether or not
S9: somebody could potentially spend the rest of their life in
S9: prison or walk free that day. Um, it's such an
S9: important process, such a high stakes process. And yeah, sometimes
S9: it's just over super quick. Other times the hearing might
S9: go for half an hour or an hour or so.
S9: Sometimes an appeal can run for weeks or months. It's
S9: you just never know. And I imagine that's very stressful
S9: for any legal team. On the prosecution or defense side
S9: that that ends up in the Court of Appeal because
S9: like us, you really don't know a which way it's
S9: going to go. And B, how long are you going
S9: to be in that court for? And if it blows
S9: out to months and you end up seeing retrials and
S9: things like that. That does occur. Um, yeah. That's a
S9: that's a lot of time and a lot of effort.
S2: And they certainly are those, those real unknown days, like
S2: you're saying, Erin, because the teams that are coming to
S2: the bench, they have to be prepared for it to
S2: go either way. So they need to either be ready
S2: to stand up and argue and speak. And the three
S2: Court of Appeal justices, whoever they are presiding over each case,
S2: will often have multiple questions for, uh, different legal representatives
S2: as they go through their arguments. Or, as you said,
S2: they can be over so, so quickly. And in those circumstances,
S2: we tend not to receive any reasons publicly. It's just, yes,
S2: it's going ahead or no. And we either hear the
S2: appeal or we don't. So we certainly don't expect to
S2: see if this sort of goes a lot further. Anything
S2: really fleshed out in a legal argument sense publicly, uh,
S2: for up to a year's time, or at least certainly
S2: months and well into next year.
S9: Yeah. Another big question that I've had a lot of
S9: people asking me about as well. Penny is what's going
S9: to happen with the civil side of things. Is anybody
S9: going to get compensation? Will her kids, will Ian Wilkinson,
S9: the families? Um, anybody related to them going to get
S9: any sort of compensation? Will it come from the House?
S9: What will that look like? It's still early days. Um,
S9: we know that the restraining order does remain on the house,
S9: but there certainly hasn't been any public progression in what's
S9: happening with that either. Perhaps that will, um, be put
S9: on ice a little bit, um, while the appeal is
S9: going on. That's typically what I've seen happen in the past.
S9: But certainly if we see or hear anything in that regard,
S9: we'll we'll bring our listeners those updates as soon as
S9: we have them.
S2: Yeah. And it's certainly just another sort of reminder after
S2: the last time we spoke, Ian Wilkinson standing on those
S2: steps outside the court, being noticeably relieved, I think, I
S2: guess that at least this part of the process was
S2: over in the sentencing. But so often in the legal world,
S2: things are not over when when you think that they
S2: are over in terms of victims families and people on
S2: that side. So it's certainly just a reminder that how
S2: far there can be to go for things to still
S2: be continually coming around and reminding people of what's happened,
S2: whether there's anywhere to go further than the Court of
S2: Appeal remains to be seen. There is, of course, the
S2: High Court in Australia, but at this point I think
S2: it's very much focused just on the Court of Appeal
S2: sort of being a last ditch attempt by Aaron Paterson,
S2: who she's in solitary confinement for life at this point.
S2: There's there's not a lot else for her to do
S2: or look forward to. But thank you for listening to
S2: this episode of say Grace. Please press the follow button
S2: in your app to get our next episodes as soon
S2: as we publish.
S9: For more reporting on the case, check out The Age
S9: of nine news in your browser or App Store.
S2: We'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land
S2: that this podcast was recorded on, and wherever you're listening
S2: to it now, say Grace is created and hosted by me,
S2: Penelope Leach.
S10: And me, Aaron Pearson.
S2: This podcast is produced by Genevieve Rule.