1 00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:03,880 S1: Nine podcasts. 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:06,960 S2: In this episode, for the first time, Erin Patterson's legal 3 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:11,039 S2: team states their intention to appeal her convictions for three 4 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:14,880 S2: counts of murder and one count of attempted murder. Plus, 5 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:17,439 S2: she has two new barristers on her side. 6 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,960 S3: Erin Patterson is a murderer. She invited her in-laws to 7 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,720 S3: lunch and dished up that now infamous beef Wellington laced 8 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:26,560 S3: with poisonous mushrooms. 9 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:30,840 S4: I have a concern regarding a patient that is potentially 10 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:35,720 S4: exposed to a fatal toxin from mushroom poisoning. What's her name? 11 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,360 S4: Last name is Patterson. First name Erin. 12 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:42,240 S5: The mother of two has been exposed for who she 13 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:44,560 S5: really is a triple murderer. 14 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:48,080 S6: Three people have died, and we've had a person that 15 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:50,400 S6: nearly died and was seriously injured. 16 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:52,800 S3: Justice has been served. 17 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:57,520 S2: The jury giving a very strong four unanimous guilty verdicts today. 18 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,470 S7: I had eyes on her as the four women stood 19 00:01:00,470 --> 00:01:03,150 S7: up and read out guilty for different times to all 20 00:01:03,150 --> 00:01:04,110 S7: four charges. 21 00:01:04,150 --> 00:01:07,150 S2: Finding she did have the intent to harm her estranged 22 00:01:07,190 --> 00:01:09,750 S2: husband's in-laws and to kill them. 23 00:01:09,990 --> 00:01:11,990 S8: Some of the best people I've ever met, they never 24 00:01:11,990 --> 00:01:14,550 S8: did anything wrong to me, and I'm so devastated about 25 00:01:14,550 --> 00:01:15,350 S8: what's happened. 26 00:01:15,550 --> 00:01:19,190 S2: Those 12 jurors, the people who sealed her fate after 27 00:01:19,190 --> 00:01:23,070 S2: a ten week trial. But ultimately they found that she's 28 00:01:23,069 --> 00:01:26,470 S2: a liar and they found her guilty. Well, we weren't 29 00:01:26,470 --> 00:01:29,790 S2: expecting to see Aaron Patterson again or be back in 30 00:01:29,790 --> 00:01:33,869 S2: court for her case just a month after she was sentenced. Aaron. 31 00:01:33,870 --> 00:01:36,550 S2: But that's exactly what's happened here in Melbourne today. 32 00:01:37,030 --> 00:01:42,190 S9: That's right. Continuing on from the unpredictable trial and all 33 00:01:42,190 --> 00:01:45,949 S9: the twists and turns, once again, there's been, um, another 34 00:01:45,950 --> 00:01:48,470 S9: update that we can bring our listeners. 35 00:01:48,470 --> 00:01:50,510 S2: And this was a very, very short court hearing. It 36 00:01:50,550 --> 00:01:53,910 S2: went for about three minutes in total. But first of all, 37 00:01:53,910 --> 00:01:59,150 S2: representing Aaron Patterson is her third barrister since she's been charged. 38 00:01:59,150 --> 00:02:01,830 S2: And it wasn't Colin Mandy who everyone got to know 39 00:02:01,830 --> 00:02:06,070 S2: through the trial period, a barrister called Richard Edney. Now, 40 00:02:06,350 --> 00:02:10,190 S2: he also confirmed for the first time that Aaron Patterson 41 00:02:10,190 --> 00:02:12,869 S2: will be appealing against her convictions. 42 00:02:12,950 --> 00:02:17,389 S9: That's right. Richard Edney walked into court today to speak 43 00:02:17,389 --> 00:02:21,630 S9: with Justice Christopher Beale, and he walked in alongside Aaron 44 00:02:21,630 --> 00:02:24,669 S9: Patterson's solicitors. They've been her solicitors from the very beginning, 45 00:02:24,669 --> 00:02:28,950 S9: Bill Doig and Ophelia Holloway. Um, but, uh, as he 46 00:02:28,950 --> 00:02:31,470 S9: walked in, he was, you know, very sharp suit, very 47 00:02:31,470 --> 00:02:35,270 S9: well presented man strutted straight in like he knew what 48 00:02:35,270 --> 00:02:37,430 S9: he needed to do and took a seat at the 49 00:02:37,430 --> 00:02:40,709 S9: bar table on the other side. We had Jane Warren 50 00:02:40,710 --> 00:02:43,669 S9: for the Crown prosecution. She didn't need to say much 51 00:02:43,910 --> 00:02:46,990 S9: as part of the hearing. Um, we heard the ventilation 52 00:02:46,990 --> 00:02:49,710 S9: of what is just going to happen with Aaron Patterson's appeal. 53 00:02:49,950 --> 00:02:53,030 S2: Yeah. And what we've spoken about with listeners before is 54 00:02:53,030 --> 00:02:55,750 S2: that usually in Victoria, what happens is at the conclusion 55 00:02:55,750 --> 00:02:58,299 S2: of a matter, usually a sentence. There's this 28 day 56 00:02:58,340 --> 00:03:01,340 S2: clock that starts to count down, and that's for if 57 00:03:01,340 --> 00:03:04,100 S2: there's going to be an appeal that appeal paperwork being 58 00:03:04,100 --> 00:03:07,060 S2: lodged with the higher court, the Court of Appeal now 59 00:03:07,500 --> 00:03:10,940 S2: very recently between Aaron Patterson being sentenced and where we 60 00:03:10,940 --> 00:03:14,660 S2: are now, about two weeks ago, there was what's called 61 00:03:14,660 --> 00:03:17,900 S2: a new practice direction, which is a trial that's been 62 00:03:17,900 --> 00:03:20,180 S2: brought in. So this is going to be tested over 63 00:03:20,180 --> 00:03:23,580 S2: around a year. And what it allows is instead of 64 00:03:23,580 --> 00:03:26,620 S2: a 28 day period, an extra 28 day period. So 65 00:03:26,660 --> 00:03:31,980 S2: 56 total for applicants to get in their paperwork, submit 66 00:03:31,980 --> 00:03:36,260 S2: officially and lodge that appeal without having to explain themselves. 67 00:03:36,300 --> 00:03:38,460 S2: And Aaron, I might get you to talk a little 68 00:03:38,500 --> 00:03:41,700 S2: bit more about the process as it was as we 69 00:03:41,700 --> 00:03:44,140 S2: know it, with the way that people had to apply 70 00:03:44,180 --> 00:03:46,820 S2: for more time. But it sort of all happens backwards. 71 00:03:46,820 --> 00:03:50,100 S9: It does. It really does. So technically, what is normally 72 00:03:50,100 --> 00:03:51,980 S9: supposed to happen is there's a bit of a 28 73 00:03:52,020 --> 00:03:56,610 S9: day window from the date of sentence, which would have 74 00:03:56,650 --> 00:03:59,690 S9: taken Aaron Patterson to midnight on October 6th. That her 75 00:03:59,690 --> 00:04:04,330 S9: defense team had to file an intention to appeal conviction 76 00:04:04,330 --> 00:04:07,770 S9: or sentence and or in. What happened then? I think 77 00:04:07,770 --> 00:04:10,090 S9: it was about the 17th of September. The Chief Justice 78 00:04:10,090 --> 00:04:13,210 S9: announced that there was going to be a trial, um, 79 00:04:13,250 --> 00:04:15,730 S9: of a bit of a change, because what they were 80 00:04:15,730 --> 00:04:19,130 S9: seeing was a lot of barristers having to apply for 81 00:04:19,130 --> 00:04:23,690 S9: extra time outside of those 28 days to complete that paperwork, um, 82 00:04:23,730 --> 00:04:26,609 S9: because there'd been a backlog. And so lots, lots of 83 00:04:26,610 --> 00:04:29,969 S9: complaints had been raised or concerns, I probably should say 84 00:04:30,010 --> 00:04:34,289 S9: concerns raised about meeting that deadline. So what this trial 85 00:04:34,490 --> 00:04:37,690 S9: effectively does is instead of having to file an affidavit, 86 00:04:37,690 --> 00:04:41,050 S9: penny explaining why you need extra time, why you should 87 00:04:41,050 --> 00:04:43,890 S9: have perhaps an extra week or two to to file 88 00:04:43,890 --> 00:04:47,690 S9: that documentation, you won't need to file that affidavit during 89 00:04:47,690 --> 00:04:50,930 S9: this trial. Effectively, you'll be given a green light to 90 00:04:50,970 --> 00:04:54,690 S9: have extra time, um, in order to do so. Now 91 00:04:54,730 --> 00:04:57,810 S9: what happens typically is if you want an extension for 92 00:04:57,810 --> 00:05:01,250 S9: your appeal before this trial, yes, you put in that application. 93 00:05:01,250 --> 00:05:04,529 S9: We've seen it in other cases, like Greg Lynn, for example, Penny, 94 00:05:04,570 --> 00:05:08,930 S9: where he filed his just outside his deadline. Um, there 95 00:05:08,930 --> 00:05:11,370 S9: is often a bit of a risk there. Sometimes it 96 00:05:11,370 --> 00:05:13,850 S9: can get to the Court of Appeal and they say, no, 97 00:05:13,850 --> 00:05:15,970 S9: we won't give you an extension of time. Um, I mean, 98 00:05:15,970 --> 00:05:18,490 S9: I've never seen that happen, but there is that risk. 99 00:05:18,490 --> 00:05:22,730 S9: So what this change effectively does is give, um, barristers 100 00:05:22,770 --> 00:05:25,250 S9: a green light to have an extra few weeks to 101 00:05:25,290 --> 00:05:26,930 S9: prepare all their documentation. 102 00:05:26,930 --> 00:05:29,610 S2: And it is confusing because we're talking there about a trial, 103 00:05:29,650 --> 00:05:32,050 S2: but not a legal criminal trial in the way that 104 00:05:32,050 --> 00:05:35,490 S2: we've seen Aaron Patterson facing being found guilty. But a 105 00:05:35,490 --> 00:05:37,810 S2: trial is in a test to see if a system 106 00:05:37,810 --> 00:05:39,930 S2: works a little bit better. And the way that the 107 00:05:39,930 --> 00:05:43,330 S2: Court of Appeal system works is that once that paperwork 108 00:05:43,330 --> 00:05:47,529 S2: is lodged, and essentially what the legal team is seeking 109 00:05:47,529 --> 00:05:50,850 S2: is what's known as leave to appeal. And when it 110 00:05:50,850 --> 00:05:54,240 S2: gets to the point that it's heard by the Court 111 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:56,839 S2: of Appeal. That's three justices of the Court of Appeal, 112 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:59,080 S2: which we don't expect anything in the Court of Appeal 113 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:01,920 S2: to move very quickly. At the moment everything's quite slow. 114 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,320 S2: So this we're now looking in terms of a result 115 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:08,880 S2: for Aaron Patterson's application. It will be probably a year 116 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,520 S2: or well into next year before we know what's going on. 117 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,640 S2: But what actually happens is despite the lodging of the 118 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:19,280 S2: paperwork from an applicant, it then when the appeal is heard, 119 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:23,640 S2: it's heard as the three justices first announcing and giving 120 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,039 S2: a ruling on whether they'll actually grant the leave to appeal. 121 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:28,360 S2: Now they can either say, yes, we're granting the leave 122 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,599 S2: to appeal. And that means usually on that day, let's go. 123 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:35,640 S2: The appeal goes ahead. Or they can say, no, we're 124 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:37,680 S2: going to throw it all out. We're not granting leave 125 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:40,440 S2: to appeal. So there's no appeal hearing essentially at all. 126 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:42,640 S2: But it all happens on that one day. And what 127 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,200 S2: was happening as well with this extension of time is 128 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,520 S2: the extension of time was being rolled into the leave 129 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,239 S2: to appeal as well. So you'd say we want this 130 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,909 S2: extra time, but you wouldn't hear back as to whether, yes, 131 00:06:52,910 --> 00:06:54,870 S2: you were getting an extension of time. Yes, you could 132 00:06:54,870 --> 00:06:57,710 S2: have your appeal until this particular day. So it does 133 00:06:57,710 --> 00:07:00,550 S2: in a way simplify things going forward. But this is 134 00:07:00,550 --> 00:07:03,589 S2: certainly the first major case that we've seen have have 135 00:07:03,589 --> 00:07:06,950 S2: this happen under this, this very new test. And it 136 00:07:06,990 --> 00:07:09,270 S2: has meant that it's been a little bit of a 137 00:07:09,270 --> 00:07:11,750 S2: different day for all of the reporters and everyone getting 138 00:07:11,750 --> 00:07:14,950 S2: their heads around this particular system. And I think what 139 00:07:14,950 --> 00:07:19,390 S2: also has been the most, I guess, newsworthy or thing 140 00:07:19,390 --> 00:07:21,390 S2: that people have been speaking about the most is that 141 00:07:21,430 --> 00:07:25,030 S2: while we've seen Colin Mandy with Aaron Patterson all the 142 00:07:25,030 --> 00:07:27,670 S2: way through this trial, speaking to her in the dock, 143 00:07:27,710 --> 00:07:29,470 S2: he was sort of the face of the legal team, 144 00:07:29,510 --> 00:07:33,790 S2: the voice of her defense. He wasn't there today. It 145 00:07:33,790 --> 00:07:37,270 S2: was Richard Edney. But we understand there will actually be 146 00:07:37,270 --> 00:07:40,950 S2: a fourth barrister representing Aaron Patterson when it comes to 147 00:07:40,990 --> 00:07:45,310 S2: this appeal. We have confirmed that Julian McMahon SC, a 148 00:07:45,310 --> 00:07:48,670 S2: very well-known criminal barrister and known for his human rights 149 00:07:48,670 --> 00:07:52,350 S2: work as well, will be representing her in her appeal 150 00:07:52,350 --> 00:07:55,390 S2: at this stage. Now, while he wasn't in court today, 151 00:07:55,510 --> 00:07:58,430 S2: he is going to be taking the appeal forward. And 152 00:07:58,790 --> 00:08:02,750 S2: Julian McMahon has got a very, very long history in 153 00:08:02,750 --> 00:08:05,550 S2: the criminal law in Victoria. He's been practicing for, I think, 154 00:08:05,550 --> 00:08:08,870 S2: nearly 20 years, and that is his his main work 155 00:08:08,910 --> 00:08:13,470 S2: as a criminal defence barrister. However, what people most notably 156 00:08:13,470 --> 00:08:16,150 S2: probably will know him for is the work that he's 157 00:08:16,150 --> 00:08:20,390 S2: done overseas for Australians who have been convicted of smuggling 158 00:08:20,390 --> 00:08:23,430 S2: drugs and some facing the death penalty. He did represent 159 00:08:23,430 --> 00:08:27,830 S2: some of the Bali Nine. He's also worked on another 160 00:08:27,830 --> 00:08:30,350 S2: case in Singapore as well, so people will have seen 161 00:08:30,350 --> 00:08:34,350 S2: headlines today around Aaron Patterson being represented by Julian McMahon. 162 00:08:34,390 --> 00:08:36,790 S2: We do understand that is the case as we head 163 00:08:36,790 --> 00:08:39,670 S2: towards an appeal, but that appeal is yet to be 164 00:08:39,670 --> 00:08:40,550 S2: formally lodged. Yeah. 165 00:08:40,590 --> 00:08:42,870 S9: And this is we're talking sort of senior barristers here. 166 00:08:42,910 --> 00:08:46,470 S9: Often you'll have a senior and a junior barrister during 167 00:08:46,750 --> 00:08:50,860 S9: a trial depending on how complicated or or serious these 168 00:08:50,860 --> 00:08:53,459 S9: cases can be. You can see more and more joining 169 00:08:53,460 --> 00:08:56,059 S9: the team. And we also had Sophie Stafford, as you know, 170 00:08:56,100 --> 00:08:59,819 S9: Penny during the trial there working alongside Colin Mandy. She 171 00:08:59,820 --> 00:09:03,340 S9: was also absent from court. And so again was Annette 172 00:09:03,380 --> 00:09:07,340 S9: Rogers for the Crown prosecution. Um, but we had largely 173 00:09:07,340 --> 00:09:10,819 S9: the same face as otherwise in court. Um, the informant 174 00:09:10,820 --> 00:09:13,860 S9: was there. A lot of other members of the homicide 175 00:09:13,860 --> 00:09:16,699 S9: squad also attended the hearing? Um, there were a couple 176 00:09:16,700 --> 00:09:18,699 S9: of members of the public. I could see, um, in 177 00:09:18,700 --> 00:09:22,140 S9: the gallery overhead, but largely press. Um, we're all pretty 178 00:09:22,140 --> 00:09:25,500 S9: much shoulder to shoulder in that courtroom, um, getting our 179 00:09:25,500 --> 00:09:28,260 S9: heads around all of this new information. Um, you know, 180 00:09:28,300 --> 00:09:31,020 S9: the explanation of how an appeal works can probably have 181 00:09:31,020 --> 00:09:33,820 S9: a lot of our listeners heads spinning. Um, it is 182 00:09:33,820 --> 00:09:38,620 S9: incredibly complicated. And because it is complicated, um, and it's really, 183 00:09:38,620 --> 00:09:42,020 S9: really high stakes. Um, it does take time. Um, it 184 00:09:42,020 --> 00:09:44,460 S9: does take time for everybody to file paperwork, Penny. And 185 00:09:44,460 --> 00:09:47,290 S9: it does take time for it to get before the court. 186 00:09:47,290 --> 00:09:49,770 S9: We know with the Greg Lynn appeal, which is coming 187 00:09:49,770 --> 00:09:52,890 S9: up soon. You know, that's about 12 months since his, um, 188 00:09:52,970 --> 00:09:56,850 S9: date of sentencing. Um, when we've seen others typically follow 189 00:09:56,850 --> 00:10:00,610 S9: the same timeline. Um, one might expect that if a 190 00:10:00,610 --> 00:10:03,929 S9: person is appealing a conviction rather than a sentence, that 191 00:10:03,929 --> 00:10:06,569 S9: maybe they would get priority. Um, we don't really know 192 00:10:06,570 --> 00:10:10,690 S9: how things work behind the scenes at the Court of Appeal, but, um, 193 00:10:10,730 --> 00:10:13,089 S9: it's very, very common for people to appeal. But that 194 00:10:13,090 --> 00:10:15,330 S9: doesn't mean it's easy, and it does not mean at 195 00:10:15,330 --> 00:10:18,290 S9: all that it's straightforward. It's just another one of these 196 00:10:18,290 --> 00:10:20,890 S9: twists and turns in this case, Penny, as we we're 197 00:10:20,890 --> 00:10:23,530 S9: all trying to follow what's going on, and we really 198 00:10:23,530 --> 00:10:25,610 S9: don't know the next date that she will be back 199 00:10:25,610 --> 00:10:28,130 S9: in court. Um, there could be other things going on. 200 00:10:28,130 --> 00:10:30,770 S9: We know the restraining order on her house is something 201 00:10:30,770 --> 00:10:35,130 S9: that's are still alive issue. Um, and that's got us 202 00:10:35,170 --> 00:10:39,690 S9: really looking at whether or not, um, legal Aid will 203 00:10:39,690 --> 00:10:43,250 S9: come in now to fund an appeal. The higher you 204 00:10:43,290 --> 00:10:45,730 S9: go in a court, sometimes the more difficult it can 205 00:10:45,730 --> 00:10:49,370 S9: be to obtain legal aid funding. But, um, if she 206 00:10:49,370 --> 00:10:53,530 S9: hasn't got any funds, um, and no, um, accessible assets, 207 00:10:53,570 --> 00:10:56,130 S9: it seems common sense that she would be going down 208 00:10:56,130 --> 00:10:57,130 S9: a legal aid route. 209 00:10:57,130 --> 00:10:59,209 S2: And we know that there was a public ad put 210 00:10:59,210 --> 00:11:01,170 S2: out by one of her friends trying to sell her 211 00:11:01,170 --> 00:11:04,210 S2: car a little while ago, the red M.G. that everyone's 212 00:11:04,210 --> 00:11:06,610 S2: seen in a lot of that footage where she stopped 213 00:11:06,610 --> 00:11:09,210 S2: and spoke to the media the first and really only 214 00:11:09,210 --> 00:11:12,930 S2: time before she was charged. And we don't, um, as 215 00:11:12,929 --> 00:11:15,730 S2: you say, know exactly where the access to money is 216 00:11:15,730 --> 00:11:18,410 S2: at the moment because there's the restraining order to stop 217 00:11:18,530 --> 00:11:20,970 S2: any sale of the Leongatha property. And we would expect 218 00:11:20,970 --> 00:11:23,810 S2: that extends to starting to extend to some other assets 219 00:11:23,809 --> 00:11:26,530 S2: as well. So people do have the ability to apply 220 00:11:26,530 --> 00:11:29,090 S2: for legal aid. That's not something that occurs in a 221 00:11:29,090 --> 00:11:33,290 S2: public courtroom. It's it's basically an application to a board. 222 00:11:33,330 --> 00:11:36,890 S2: And there are different, um, circumstances taken into consideration and 223 00:11:36,890 --> 00:11:39,370 S2: different things that have to be met and decided on there. 224 00:11:39,370 --> 00:11:44,010 S2: But she's also just celebrated her second birthday behind bars, too. 225 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:45,960 S2: She's just turned 51. 226 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:50,120 S9: Yeah. On the 30th of September. Penny, um, was the 227 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,520 S9: marking of her 51st birthday. So it's been a week 228 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:57,080 S9: of events for this triple murderer. We don't know anything 229 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,680 S9: about how she would have celebrated, um, or not her 230 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,960 S9: birthday while she's in custody. We did see her briefly 231 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,360 S9: on the video link. Um, when she appeared in court 232 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:11,800 S9: for this brief hearing. Um, she was wearing a blue windcheater, 233 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:16,280 S9: which is what they women commonly wear in Dame Phyllis Frost, centre. And, um, 234 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:19,040 S9: she was sitting at the same, um, table that she 235 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:21,800 S9: normally does, staring out the window for a lot of 236 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,120 S9: the hearing. We didn't get much of a reaction from her. 237 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:26,400 S9: It's not unusual at all, Penny, but this was, as 238 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,880 S9: you said earlier in this episode, um, a hearing that 239 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,400 S9: only went for a couple of minutes. Um, a very 240 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:34,480 S9: important hearing, but one that was over very, very quickly. 241 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,520 S9: And it's now, um, I guess, up to us to 242 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:40,320 S9: watch and and wait and find out whether or not 243 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:44,350 S9: those appeal documents get lodged. Yes. They said today. Um, 244 00:12:44,350 --> 00:12:47,510 S9: they have an intention to appeal the conviction. But until 245 00:12:47,510 --> 00:12:50,949 S9: that paperwork is lodged, Penny, um, you never know what 246 00:12:50,950 --> 00:12:54,710 S9: is going to happen. So 56 days will be the 247 00:12:54,710 --> 00:12:57,990 S9: maximum time at the moment. Um, they've indicated that they 248 00:12:57,990 --> 00:13:00,750 S9: will need, um, but we'll be checking in with the 249 00:13:00,750 --> 00:13:03,190 S9: court every day quite regularly to find out if and 250 00:13:03,190 --> 00:13:03,910 S9: when that occurs. 251 00:13:03,950 --> 00:13:06,750 S2: We'll be back with more after this. And as to 252 00:13:06,790 --> 00:13:10,069 S2: what grounds Aaron Patterson might appeal her conviction on. A 253 00:13:10,070 --> 00:13:12,950 S2: lot of people have said to me, this looks pretty, 254 00:13:12,990 --> 00:13:15,630 S2: you know, water tight from the outside. How could she 255 00:13:15,670 --> 00:13:18,430 S2: possibly try and say now that she's not guilty after 256 00:13:18,429 --> 00:13:21,830 S2: this jury verdict? The system allows for for an appeal. 257 00:13:21,830 --> 00:13:24,670 S2: It depends, obviously, on what grounds the defence can put 258 00:13:24,670 --> 00:13:27,590 S2: to the Court of Appeal whether those justices allow it 259 00:13:27,590 --> 00:13:30,510 S2: to go forward. They will have to find points of law, 260 00:13:30,790 --> 00:13:34,829 S2: different things to, um, build an appeal on essentially to 261 00:13:34,870 --> 00:13:37,350 S2: try and get that leave to to launch that hearing 262 00:13:37,350 --> 00:13:40,550 S2: in the first place. And when we do see the 263 00:13:40,550 --> 00:13:44,670 S2: paperwork lodged, which we are expecting around early November. That 264 00:13:44,670 --> 00:13:47,350 S2: should give us some indication as to what her legal 265 00:13:47,350 --> 00:13:49,950 S2: team want to try and rely on to try and 266 00:13:49,990 --> 00:13:53,950 S2: have these convictions and the jury decisions. Relooked at. As 267 00:13:53,990 --> 00:13:56,750 S2: for a sentence appeal, that can happen as well. They've 268 00:13:56,750 --> 00:13:59,350 S2: not indicated at this point that they would appeal that 269 00:13:59,350 --> 00:14:02,950 S2: life sentence with a 33 year non-parole period. However, there 270 00:14:02,950 --> 00:14:06,230 S2: have been reports that the Director of Public Prosecutions, the 271 00:14:06,230 --> 00:14:09,630 S2: prosecution team, whether they would look to appeal that sentence, they, 272 00:14:09,670 --> 00:14:13,750 S2: of course, argued initially that Aaron Paterson should be jailed 273 00:14:13,750 --> 00:14:16,429 S2: for life without the possibility of parole. We know if 274 00:14:16,429 --> 00:14:18,270 S2: that had happened, she would only be the second woman 275 00:14:18,270 --> 00:14:21,150 S2: in Australia ever given that sentence. It wasn't what happened 276 00:14:21,150 --> 00:14:21,910 S2: in the end. 277 00:14:21,950 --> 00:14:24,790 S9: I spoke to the Office of Public Prosecutions earlier this 278 00:14:24,790 --> 00:14:27,470 S9: week about what their their plans were, and they said 279 00:14:27,470 --> 00:14:30,030 S9: that they haven't yet made a decision. So we know 280 00:14:30,030 --> 00:14:32,670 S9: that they've got until midnight on the 6th of October, 281 00:14:32,670 --> 00:14:36,590 S9: 2025 to file those documents. So the earliest we would 282 00:14:36,590 --> 00:14:39,070 S9: find out is the following morning, the Tuesday morning on 283 00:14:39,070 --> 00:14:41,820 S9: the 7th of October, whether or not they did decide. 284 00:14:41,820 --> 00:14:44,700 S9: But they did send me a statement this week saying, um, 285 00:14:44,700 --> 00:14:47,500 S9: that they were still, you know, considering it. But they 286 00:14:47,500 --> 00:14:51,900 S9: hadn't made a formal decision yet. So the clock is ticking. Penny, 287 00:14:51,940 --> 00:14:54,780 S9: there's only I'm counting on my calendar now, a couple 288 00:14:54,820 --> 00:14:57,140 S9: of sleeps, um, that they've got. And we know that 289 00:14:57,140 --> 00:15:00,460 S9: the weekend is fast approaching. Um, so we would hope 290 00:15:00,460 --> 00:15:03,220 S9: to know within a number of days if the OP 291 00:15:03,420 --> 00:15:06,780 S9: also would like to join, um, the same rung and 292 00:15:06,780 --> 00:15:08,940 S9: go down in the appeal route as well, or whether 293 00:15:08,940 --> 00:15:11,980 S9: or not they will accept the sentence that was handed down. 294 00:15:11,980 --> 00:15:14,180 S2: And we do know just from speaking with people in 295 00:15:14,180 --> 00:15:16,980 S2: the legal profession today, conversations that I've had it certainly 296 00:15:16,980 --> 00:15:20,700 S2: the feeling amongst, uh, criminal lawyers that it is more 297 00:15:20,740 --> 00:15:25,620 S2: unusual to get an appeal from the prosecution side on 298 00:15:25,620 --> 00:15:27,740 S2: a sentence. And a lot of that's because they have 299 00:15:27,740 --> 00:15:30,580 S2: to take a lot of different things into consideration between 300 00:15:30,620 --> 00:15:33,980 S2: they refer to them as stakeholders, but basically victims families, 301 00:15:33,980 --> 00:15:37,500 S2: police and and ultimately it's up to the director to decide, 302 00:15:37,740 --> 00:15:41,650 S2: do we go forward on a, on another, uh, hearing essentially, 303 00:15:41,650 --> 00:15:44,010 S2: and all the work and time and money that goes 304 00:15:44,010 --> 00:15:47,410 S2: into that or will we accept this? And whereas we 305 00:15:47,410 --> 00:15:51,090 S2: do see a little bit more regularly, um, accused and 306 00:15:51,090 --> 00:15:55,410 S2: then convicted people appealing either against their sentence or conviction, 307 00:15:55,410 --> 00:15:58,010 S2: which they're certainly allowed to put those appeals to the 308 00:15:58,010 --> 00:16:00,450 S2: Court of Appeal. But those three justices have to make 309 00:16:00,450 --> 00:16:04,530 S2: the decision as to whether they're worthy of an appeal 310 00:16:04,530 --> 00:16:08,050 S2: in the circumstances or it can't just be, I don't 311 00:16:08,050 --> 00:16:09,890 S2: like it. I insist I'm innocent. 312 00:16:09,930 --> 00:16:11,810 S9: Yeah. And we've seen a lot of lawyer X related 313 00:16:11,810 --> 00:16:15,130 S9: appeals and a, like, um, starting to pop up in 314 00:16:15,130 --> 00:16:17,410 S9: the Court of Appeal in the last couple of years. 315 00:16:17,650 --> 00:16:20,050 S9: And often we'll walk in and we'll sit down ready 316 00:16:20,050 --> 00:16:23,010 S9: to hear whether or not a person's been granted an appeal. 317 00:16:23,010 --> 00:16:27,450 S9: And it's, uh, no appeal, denied sentence or conviction. Whatever 318 00:16:27,450 --> 00:16:29,970 S9: it is you've applied for, denied. And the hearing is 319 00:16:29,970 --> 00:16:31,450 S9: over within about 25 seconds. 320 00:16:31,690 --> 00:16:32,290 S2: It's so fast. 321 00:16:32,690 --> 00:16:35,130 S9: The seat you've sat down on isn't even warm. You know, 322 00:16:35,170 --> 00:16:38,290 S9: the leather seats you sit down on? um. You're there. 323 00:16:38,290 --> 00:16:41,530 S9: You've barely unpacked your handbag, getting out your laptop, and 324 00:16:41,530 --> 00:16:44,690 S9: all of a sudden, um, everybody in the room's built up. 325 00:16:44,690 --> 00:16:47,570 S9: All of this feeling and emotion and anxiety of what's 326 00:16:47,570 --> 00:16:50,810 S9: going to happen, including the accused, who usually appears via 327 00:16:50,810 --> 00:16:54,290 S9: video link, not knowing what their fate is going to be. 328 00:16:54,330 --> 00:16:57,490 S9: I mean, the Court of Appeal hold such power and 329 00:16:57,490 --> 00:17:01,250 S9: such important power in their hands, deciding whether or not 330 00:17:01,250 --> 00:17:03,370 S9: somebody could potentially spend the rest of their life in 331 00:17:03,370 --> 00:17:06,929 S9: prison or walk free that day. Um, it's such an 332 00:17:06,930 --> 00:17:10,850 S9: important process, such a high stakes process. And yeah, sometimes 333 00:17:10,850 --> 00:17:14,050 S9: it's just over super quick. Other times the hearing might 334 00:17:14,050 --> 00:17:16,209 S9: go for half an hour or an hour or so. 335 00:17:16,410 --> 00:17:19,730 S9: Sometimes an appeal can run for weeks or months. It's 336 00:17:19,770 --> 00:17:22,770 S9: you just never know. And I imagine that's very stressful 337 00:17:22,770 --> 00:17:25,850 S9: for any legal team. On the prosecution or defense side 338 00:17:25,850 --> 00:17:27,730 S9: that that ends up in the Court of Appeal because 339 00:17:27,730 --> 00:17:30,209 S9: like us, you really don't know a which way it's 340 00:17:30,210 --> 00:17:31,530 S9: going to go. And B, how long are you going 341 00:17:31,570 --> 00:17:33,970 S9: to be in that court for? And if it blows 342 00:17:33,970 --> 00:17:36,359 S9: out to months and you end up seeing retrials and 343 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:40,199 S9: things like that. That does occur. Um, yeah. That's a 344 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:41,760 S9: that's a lot of time and a lot of effort. 345 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,120 S2: And they certainly are those, those real unknown days, like 346 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:47,760 S2: you're saying, Erin, because the teams that are coming to 347 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:49,679 S2: the bench, they have to be prepared for it to 348 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:51,720 S2: go either way. So they need to either be ready 349 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:55,440 S2: to stand up and argue and speak. And the three 350 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,879 S2: Court of Appeal justices, whoever they are presiding over each case, 351 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:03,280 S2: will often have multiple questions for, uh, different legal representatives 352 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:05,680 S2: as they go through their arguments. Or, as you said, 353 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,200 S2: they can be over so, so quickly. And in those circumstances, 354 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:13,440 S2: we tend not to receive any reasons publicly. It's just, yes, 355 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:15,880 S2: it's going ahead or no. And we either hear the 356 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,560 S2: appeal or we don't. So we certainly don't expect to 357 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,919 S2: see if this sort of goes a lot further. Anything 358 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:26,359 S2: really fleshed out in a legal argument sense publicly, uh, 359 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:28,879 S2: for up to a year's time, or at least certainly 360 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:30,440 S2: months and well into next year. 361 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:32,879 S9: Yeah. Another big question that I've had a lot of 362 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,750 S9: people asking me about as well. Penny is what's going 363 00:18:35,790 --> 00:18:38,550 S9: to happen with the civil side of things. Is anybody 364 00:18:38,550 --> 00:18:41,550 S9: going to get compensation? Will her kids, will Ian Wilkinson, 365 00:18:41,590 --> 00:18:44,629 S9: the families? Um, anybody related to them going to get 366 00:18:44,630 --> 00:18:46,550 S9: any sort of compensation? Will it come from the House? 367 00:18:46,550 --> 00:18:49,830 S9: What will that look like? It's still early days. Um, 368 00:18:49,830 --> 00:18:52,430 S9: we know that the restraining order does remain on the house, 369 00:18:52,430 --> 00:18:55,710 S9: but there certainly hasn't been any public progression in what's 370 00:18:55,710 --> 00:18:59,550 S9: happening with that either. Perhaps that will, um, be put 371 00:18:59,550 --> 00:19:01,910 S9: on ice a little bit, um, while the appeal is 372 00:19:01,910 --> 00:19:04,669 S9: going on. That's typically what I've seen happen in the past. 373 00:19:04,950 --> 00:19:07,510 S9: But certainly if we see or hear anything in that regard, 374 00:19:07,550 --> 00:19:09,709 S9: we'll we'll bring our listeners those updates as soon as 375 00:19:09,710 --> 00:19:10,470 S9: we have them. 376 00:19:10,470 --> 00:19:13,830 S2: Yeah. And it's certainly just another sort of reminder after 377 00:19:13,830 --> 00:19:16,310 S2: the last time we spoke, Ian Wilkinson standing on those 378 00:19:16,310 --> 00:19:21,070 S2: steps outside the court, being noticeably relieved, I think, I 379 00:19:21,109 --> 00:19:23,550 S2: guess that at least this part of the process was 380 00:19:23,550 --> 00:19:26,950 S2: over in the sentencing. But so often in the legal world, 381 00:19:26,950 --> 00:19:29,590 S2: things are not over when when you think that they 382 00:19:29,590 --> 00:19:33,910 S2: are over in terms of victims families and people on 383 00:19:33,950 --> 00:19:37,750 S2: that side. So it's certainly just a reminder that how 384 00:19:37,750 --> 00:19:40,710 S2: far there can be to go for things to still 385 00:19:40,710 --> 00:19:45,350 S2: be continually coming around and reminding people of what's happened, 386 00:19:45,390 --> 00:19:48,469 S2: whether there's anywhere to go further than the Court of 387 00:19:48,470 --> 00:19:50,550 S2: Appeal remains to be seen. There is, of course, the 388 00:19:50,550 --> 00:19:52,710 S2: High Court in Australia, but at this point I think 389 00:19:52,710 --> 00:19:55,030 S2: it's very much focused just on the Court of Appeal 390 00:19:55,070 --> 00:19:58,270 S2: sort of being a last ditch attempt by Aaron Paterson, 391 00:19:58,270 --> 00:20:02,189 S2: who she's in solitary confinement for life at this point. 392 00:20:02,230 --> 00:20:03,990 S2: There's there's not a lot else for her to do 393 00:20:04,030 --> 00:20:06,590 S2: or look forward to. But thank you for listening to 394 00:20:06,630 --> 00:20:09,470 S2: this episode of say Grace. Please press the follow button 395 00:20:09,470 --> 00:20:11,550 S2: in your app to get our next episodes as soon 396 00:20:11,550 --> 00:20:12,469 S2: as we publish. 397 00:20:12,750 --> 00:20:14,990 S9: For more reporting on the case, check out The Age 398 00:20:14,990 --> 00:20:17,030 S9: of nine news in your browser or App Store. 399 00:20:17,070 --> 00:20:19,389 S2: We'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land 400 00:20:19,390 --> 00:20:22,270 S2: that this podcast was recorded on, and wherever you're listening 401 00:20:22,310 --> 00:20:25,270 S2: to it now, say Grace is created and hosted by me, 402 00:20:25,310 --> 00:20:26,310 S2: Penelope Leach. 403 00:20:26,350 --> 00:20:27,629 S10: And me, Aaron Pearson. 404 00:20:27,950 --> 00:20:30,350 S2: This podcast is produced by Genevieve Rule.