1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,920 S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:06,400 S1: This is inside politics. I'm Jacqueline Maley. It's Friday, December 3 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:10,320 S1: the 5th. This week the prime minister, Anthony Albanese, was 4 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:12,560 S1: on his honeymoon, of course, after his low key wedding 5 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:16,040 S1: at the Lodge last weekend. But Senate estimates rolled on 6 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:19,280 S1: in Canberra and we did uncover some interesting secrets. Joining 7 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:22,560 S1: me to discuss is our chief political correspondent, Paul Circle, 8 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:27,200 S1: and our political correspondent Natassia Chrysanthos, both beaming in live 9 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:28,040 S1: from Canberra. 10 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:29,720 S2: Hi, Jack. Hello. 11 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:34,040 S1: So on this podcast, regular listeners will have clocked that 12 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,599 S1: we've recently focused a lot on the opposition. Last week 13 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,320 S1: we interviewed Opposition Leader Sussan Ley, and we've talked a 14 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,680 S1: lot about their internal implosion over net zero. So we 15 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:45,560 S1: feel a little bit like we've undercooked the government or 16 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,000 S1: sort of scrutiny on the government these last few weeks. 17 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:51,479 S1: So I want to correct that. To that end, the 18 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:53,959 S1: big story this week was the government's social media ban, 19 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,600 S1: which will come into effect next week on December 10th, 20 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,500 S1: I believe. And Communications Minister Anika Wells, who is was 21 00:00:59,500 --> 00:01:02,300 S1: young and were led to believe up and coming minister, 22 00:01:02,340 --> 00:01:05,700 S1: gave a speech to the National Press Club about that ban. 23 00:01:06,100 --> 00:01:09,260 S1: Natasha attended and it was sort of tasks supposed to 24 00:01:09,260 --> 00:01:11,860 S1: be sort of like a crowning achievement type speech, wasn't it? 25 00:01:11,860 --> 00:01:15,060 S1: Because this social media ban has got bipartisan support. It's 26 00:01:15,060 --> 00:01:18,179 S1: hugely popular amongst parents, maybe not so much amongst teens 27 00:01:18,180 --> 00:01:21,220 S1: and tweens, but the whole speech kind of got hijacked 28 00:01:21,220 --> 00:01:23,140 S1: by another issue. Can you tell us what happened? 29 00:01:23,740 --> 00:01:26,500 S3: Yeah. And in terms of the kind of scene setter, 30 00:01:26,540 --> 00:01:28,899 S3: you know, I think people criticize this government for a 31 00:01:28,900 --> 00:01:32,420 S3: lack of of ambition at times. The social media ban 32 00:01:32,420 --> 00:01:34,300 S3: is probably one of the big policies it would point 33 00:01:34,300 --> 00:01:37,980 S3: to as a sign of its appetite for bold reform. 34 00:01:37,980 --> 00:01:41,340 S3: So there's a lot resting on it. Anika Wells inherited 35 00:01:41,459 --> 00:01:46,220 S3: this big policy after the election, and so the speech 36 00:01:46,220 --> 00:01:49,980 S3: this week was a bit of a kind of, I guess, 37 00:01:50,020 --> 00:01:55,060 S3: laying the groundwork for that, but also tempering expectations, I think, 38 00:01:55,100 --> 00:01:57,740 S3: for what people should expect. 39 00:01:57,780 --> 00:01:58,380 S2: Hugely. 40 00:01:58,530 --> 00:02:02,410 S3: Next week. At the same time you have a story break. 41 00:02:02,450 --> 00:02:05,930 S3: The previous night around Senate estimates. 42 00:02:05,970 --> 00:02:10,970 S4: Taxpayers coughed up almost $100,000 for flights, so the communications 43 00:02:10,970 --> 00:02:15,169 S4: minister and her staff could spruik Australia's world first social 44 00:02:15,169 --> 00:02:18,130 S4: media ban in New York. The controversy comes. 45 00:02:18,169 --> 00:02:21,450 S3: And according to this document, the flights for wells cost 46 00:02:21,450 --> 00:02:25,290 S3: about $34,000 return and for her staff member cost about 47 00:02:25,290 --> 00:02:29,170 S3: $38,000 return. So there was a big please explain over that. 48 00:02:29,210 --> 00:02:32,530 S1: Well, according to our story, it was nearly $100,000 on 49 00:02:32,530 --> 00:02:34,850 S1: flights for the three of them. So Minister Wells and 50 00:02:34,850 --> 00:02:39,169 S1: then two staffers basically, which is an extraordinary amount of money. 51 00:02:39,169 --> 00:02:42,450 S1: And I actually struggle to understand how any flight can 52 00:02:42,450 --> 00:02:44,530 S1: cost $30,000. But apparently they did. 53 00:02:45,169 --> 00:02:46,410 S2: They haven't really explained how. 54 00:02:46,450 --> 00:02:49,530 S1: No the only well, so this and as you say, 55 00:02:49,530 --> 00:02:51,530 S1: this was to the UN General Assembly and they got 56 00:02:51,530 --> 00:02:53,530 S1: really good publicity out of it at the time because 57 00:02:53,530 --> 00:02:55,650 S1: it was this world leading thing. And I think the 58 00:02:55,650 --> 00:02:59,230 S1: president of the EU showed up to this event and 59 00:02:59,790 --> 00:03:01,950 S1: it got really good coverage and I think not just 60 00:03:01,950 --> 00:03:04,990 S1: in Australia, but also a little bit globally because because 61 00:03:04,990 --> 00:03:07,350 S1: it's a world leading ban, as they keep saying. And 62 00:03:07,350 --> 00:03:10,350 S1: now we're finding out that the cost was just astronomical. 63 00:03:10,630 --> 00:03:13,070 S1: It always amazes me when this stuff comes up, because 64 00:03:13,110 --> 00:03:15,630 S1: so many politicians have fallen on their sword over it. 65 00:03:15,630 --> 00:03:17,990 S1: And it's a really easy reference point for voters because 66 00:03:17,990 --> 00:03:20,190 S1: they know, like, hang on, how can a how can 67 00:03:20,230 --> 00:03:23,350 S1: a flight cost $30,000 or Susan Lee got done for 68 00:03:23,350 --> 00:03:25,549 S1: this when, you know, in 2017, when she was found 69 00:03:25,550 --> 00:03:27,590 S1: to have taken a taxpayer funded flight to the Gold 70 00:03:27,590 --> 00:03:29,310 S1: Coast to buy an apartment privately. 71 00:03:29,510 --> 00:03:31,830 S3: And I think this one is like, you know, it 72 00:03:31,830 --> 00:03:34,830 S3: was strictly government business. They have an argument for why 73 00:03:34,830 --> 00:03:39,110 S3: it was important. So I think perhaps they, you know, 74 00:03:39,150 --> 00:03:41,830 S3: they knew how much the flight cost. They had a 75 00:03:42,070 --> 00:03:44,710 S3: night's preparation that this story was going to come out. 76 00:03:44,750 --> 00:03:48,430 S3: There could have perhaps been a slightly more robust defence 77 00:03:48,830 --> 00:03:49,950 S3: of that. 78 00:03:49,990 --> 00:03:52,550 S1: I was actually really intrigued to know how one single 79 00:03:52,550 --> 00:03:56,410 S1: flight could cost $30,000 or in excess of $30,000, $80,000. Having, 80 00:03:56,450 --> 00:03:58,610 S1: you know, I'm more of a kind of bogan missile 81 00:03:58,650 --> 00:04:01,570 S1: type flyer. Like I'm Jetstar or Bust. 82 00:04:02,690 --> 00:04:04,290 S2: I'm the same. Actually a Jetstar. 83 00:04:04,330 --> 00:04:06,650 S1: Yeah, actually, you know, shout out to Jetstar. 84 00:04:06,690 --> 00:04:10,330 S3: I think everyone was very intrigued when we the The 85 00:04:10,490 --> 00:04:14,210 S3: Office by like 8 a.m. was googling how much it 86 00:04:14,210 --> 00:04:17,690 S3: would cost to fly first class Qantas to New York 87 00:04:17,890 --> 00:04:22,170 S3: the next day, and that came up at 16 grand return. 88 00:04:22,170 --> 00:04:23,969 S3: So we're talking double that now. 89 00:04:24,010 --> 00:04:25,290 S2: And this was $38,000, but. 90 00:04:25,290 --> 00:04:28,729 S3: It was 38,000 return. I was talking to a government 91 00:04:28,730 --> 00:04:32,250 S3: staffer about it. And they were kind of saying, you know, 92 00:04:32,529 --> 00:04:38,090 S3: flights do fluctuate wildly, especially the business class prices for 93 00:04:38,089 --> 00:04:41,490 S3: these big global summits and events. Right. Because the airlines 94 00:04:41,490 --> 00:04:43,650 S3: are aware, like and especially I think it was maybe 95 00:04:43,690 --> 00:04:46,969 S3: New York Fashion Week around that time as well. And 96 00:04:46,970 --> 00:04:48,490 S3: it was the UN. And there were a couple of 97 00:04:48,490 --> 00:04:49,049 S3: things on. 98 00:04:49,050 --> 00:04:51,050 S2: So and she had to delay a flight right till 99 00:04:51,050 --> 00:04:53,250 S2: the last moment because she was dealing with the Optus trip. 100 00:04:53,410 --> 00:04:55,550 S5: Look, it's a matter of public record that I delayed 101 00:04:55,550 --> 00:04:58,910 S5: my departure because of the Optus outages. 102 00:04:58,910 --> 00:05:02,590 S6: So the scale of the tragedy linked to Thursday's Optus 103 00:05:02,589 --> 00:05:06,710 S6: outage is becoming clearer tonight. In the last hour, the 104 00:05:06,710 --> 00:05:09,950 S6: death of a fourth person has been confirmed by the 105 00:05:09,950 --> 00:05:12,950 S6: West Australian premier. A 49 year old man. 106 00:05:12,990 --> 00:05:15,310 S2: But the Prime Minister was questioning whether she should go 107 00:05:15,350 --> 00:05:15,830 S2: and he gave. 108 00:05:16,150 --> 00:05:18,310 S3: The Prime Minister's plane. Then she couldn't end up going 109 00:05:18,310 --> 00:05:19,670 S3: on the Prime Minister's plane, so. 110 00:05:19,670 --> 00:05:20,710 S2: It wasn't very last. 111 00:05:20,710 --> 00:05:20,950 S3: Minute. 112 00:05:20,990 --> 00:05:23,510 S1: Sorry. I just loved the idea of all the journalists going, what? 113 00:05:23,550 --> 00:05:25,710 S1: What is a business class flight even cost? And what 114 00:05:25,710 --> 00:05:27,870 S1: is a first class flight cost? And it's beyond our. 115 00:05:27,870 --> 00:05:30,310 S3: World, like everyone was also like first class flight tomorrow. 116 00:05:30,310 --> 00:05:35,070 S3: Only $16,000 worth it. I don't know, but what was interesting, 117 00:05:35,070 --> 00:05:39,229 S3: I think that in her, because it's more just like it, 118 00:05:39,270 --> 00:05:42,110 S3: I think the reason it became a story was that 119 00:05:42,110 --> 00:05:44,469 S3: it didn't make clear sense. 120 00:05:44,589 --> 00:05:44,989 S1: No. 121 00:05:45,270 --> 00:05:48,550 S3: When you when you kind of benchmark typical flight prices. 122 00:05:48,750 --> 00:05:52,900 S3: And so I think it was an interesting decision In 123 00:05:52,940 --> 00:05:56,140 S3: that given there was then so much speculation, for example, 124 00:05:56,180 --> 00:05:58,339 S3: like was it a first class flight? Because that that 125 00:05:58,339 --> 00:06:00,460 S3: tends to be kind of toward the higher end of 126 00:06:00,460 --> 00:06:03,060 S3: first class flights, those prices. Was it a charter flight 127 00:06:03,100 --> 00:06:06,140 S3: like there are all these questions. Um, but at the 128 00:06:06,140 --> 00:06:09,220 S3: press club, she was asked, you know, why did they 129 00:06:09,220 --> 00:06:12,020 S3: cost so much? Then she was asked again, you know, 130 00:06:12,060 --> 00:06:14,220 S3: can you just explain the costs? Were they were they 131 00:06:14,220 --> 00:06:16,900 S3: first class flights, for example? She said no, they weren't. 132 00:06:16,900 --> 00:06:19,580 S3: So then that leaves an assumption there. Business class flights, 133 00:06:19,580 --> 00:06:21,740 S3: in which case they're very expensive business class flights. She 134 00:06:21,740 --> 00:06:23,540 S3: was then thrown a bone, I think, by the host 135 00:06:23,540 --> 00:06:25,420 S3: of the press club who said, well, you know, was 136 00:06:25,420 --> 00:06:27,820 S3: it because it was such a last minute flight that 137 00:06:27,820 --> 00:06:31,300 S3: it just cost that much? And again, she didn't really say. 138 00:06:31,779 --> 00:06:35,380 S5: Uh, no, they weren't first class flights. We will disclose 139 00:06:35,380 --> 00:06:39,260 S5: further through the usual ipea processes that haven't rolled out yet. 140 00:06:39,620 --> 00:06:41,540 S5: The reason you have this information now is because it 141 00:06:41,540 --> 00:06:43,659 S5: was a question on notice that we've provided ahead of 142 00:06:43,660 --> 00:06:47,260 S5: the Senate estimates process, all absolutely usual. Um, and we'll 143 00:06:47,260 --> 00:06:50,700 S5: continue to comply with all the usual rules. I would 144 00:06:50,700 --> 00:06:53,240 S5: refer you back to the fact that this is about 145 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,359 S5: one of the most important public policy challenges. 146 00:06:55,360 --> 00:07:00,040 S2: I think that those numbers I'm probably making some leaps here, 147 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,400 S2: but I feel like the average voter would understand a 148 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,600 S2: minister on a really long haul flight, taking a business 149 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,120 S2: or first class tickets within the guidelines. They're looking at 150 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:13,520 S2: sensitive documents. They need to be fresh immediately when they land, 151 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:15,360 S2: to go to their events and deal with dignitaries, and 152 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:17,640 S2: then they're on a different time zone, and they pretty 153 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,040 S2: much stay up all day on on when they're back 154 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:22,440 S2: on their previous sleep cycle. But I think it was 155 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:24,760 S2: the numbers that just leapt out and looked absurd, like 156 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:29,320 S2: a $38,000 flight strikes you as ridiculous. And her her 157 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,800 S2: reluctance to explain why it was so high, which might 158 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:36,360 S2: have a decent explanation, just furthers the narrative. And there's 159 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:38,120 S2: a lot of a lot of the commentary in the 160 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:41,400 S2: last day has been along the lines of this looking 161 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:43,920 S2: on the nose in a cost of living crisis. I mean, 162 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,800 S2: we live in a period of very high distrust of government. Yes, 163 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,080 S2: some people are doing it tough, but even people who 164 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:51,739 S2: are not would look at this and just think, oh, really? 165 00:07:51,780 --> 00:07:54,820 S2: And I think the instinct of voters these days is 166 00:07:54,820 --> 00:07:58,860 S2: to immediately look for a reason why this casts the 167 00:07:58,860 --> 00:08:01,580 S2: political class as out of touch and corrupt. That's where 168 00:08:01,580 --> 00:08:05,420 S2: most voters minds go. Cost of living, crisis or otherwise. 169 00:08:05,420 --> 00:08:07,460 S2: And I think if the government was just front footed 170 00:08:07,460 --> 00:08:10,140 S2: on this and said why her trip was important, why 171 00:08:10,140 --> 00:08:12,020 S2: it cost so much, they'd probably do a better job 172 00:08:12,020 --> 00:08:12,860 S2: of winning the argument. 173 00:08:12,900 --> 00:08:16,580 S1: Yeah. And Paul, so the story came out sort of 174 00:08:16,660 --> 00:08:20,100 S1: through the estimates process, didn't it? So when Anika Wells 175 00:08:20,100 --> 00:08:22,380 S1: talks about transparency and sort of makes a virtue of 176 00:08:22,380 --> 00:08:26,380 S1: the transparency was actually, I think, opposition questions on notice 177 00:08:26,380 --> 00:08:29,300 S1: that they sort of that they had to answer basically, 178 00:08:29,300 --> 00:08:31,940 S1: and then they slipped out very late or sort of 179 00:08:31,980 --> 00:08:34,340 S1: reasonably late on Tuesday night. Is that right? 180 00:08:34,700 --> 00:08:36,740 S2: I think it came out through a Senate question. 181 00:08:36,780 --> 00:08:42,300 S3: Yeah. But I think it is disclosed ultimately through finance. 182 00:08:42,500 --> 00:08:44,540 S2: But was it finances decision to put it out at 183 00:08:44,580 --> 00:08:45,620 S2: that time? Or is that when the. 184 00:08:45,620 --> 00:08:48,739 S3: I think they generally have to bring they have to, um, 185 00:08:48,860 --> 00:08:51,650 S3: publish answers to before the next estimates hearing. 186 00:08:51,650 --> 00:08:54,290 S2: Okay, so it needs to get published before finance rocks 187 00:08:54,290 --> 00:08:55,689 S2: up in Senate estimates. Yeah. So that's. 188 00:08:55,890 --> 00:08:56,370 S3: Generally. 189 00:08:56,370 --> 00:08:58,410 S1: Yeah. So I mean our story says that the government 190 00:08:58,410 --> 00:09:00,970 S1: replied to an opposition question on notice from Senate estimates 191 00:09:00,970 --> 00:09:03,490 S1: in October. So, you know, I guess it's a month 192 00:09:03,490 --> 00:09:05,730 S1: or two old this question. And they've slipped it out 193 00:09:05,770 --> 00:09:08,850 S1: on Tuesday, late on Tuesday, which is, you know, standard 194 00:09:08,890 --> 00:09:11,890 S1: operating procedure, I suppose, for most governments who who want 195 00:09:11,890 --> 00:09:15,890 S1: to downplay something. Let's talk about the actual social media ban. Paul, 196 00:09:16,290 --> 00:09:18,050 S1: do you think there's a risk here for the government? 197 00:09:18,050 --> 00:09:21,770 S1: It's such a it's such a popular policy amongst parents 198 00:09:21,770 --> 00:09:25,730 S1: like myself, who have such huge anxiety over what social 199 00:09:25,730 --> 00:09:28,530 S1: media is doing to their kids. Um, what do you 200 00:09:28,530 --> 00:09:30,530 S1: think the risks are? Why? Why do you think there 201 00:09:30,570 --> 00:09:31,650 S1: are risks in it? 202 00:09:32,530 --> 00:09:34,890 S2: Well, I think this this little blow up over the 203 00:09:34,890 --> 00:09:39,610 S2: expenses helps bring to light this interesting paradox on this 204 00:09:39,610 --> 00:09:43,050 S2: policy debate. In one sense, the government's taken a huge 205 00:09:43,050 --> 00:09:46,570 S2: step forward here. They're a world leader in this space. 206 00:09:46,690 --> 00:09:50,470 S2: Anika Wells was in the UN General Assembly. Speaking at 207 00:09:50,830 --> 00:09:53,670 S2: a conference alongside Ursula von der Leyen, the EU president. 208 00:09:53,670 --> 00:09:57,190 S2: As you say, there's global momentum, momentum around what Australia 209 00:09:57,230 --> 00:10:01,030 S2: is doing. We look like the outlier nation that's willing 210 00:10:01,070 --> 00:10:03,069 S2: to take on the tech giants and do a reform that, 211 00:10:03,070 --> 00:10:06,270 S2: as you say, Jack, parents love. So we're getting a 212 00:10:06,270 --> 00:10:08,630 S2: lot of kudos internationally. Anika Wells did an interview with 213 00:10:08,630 --> 00:10:09,830 S2: the BBC the other night. 214 00:10:10,390 --> 00:10:14,950 S7: For this interview. I met Anika Wells, the Australian communications minister, 215 00:10:14,950 --> 00:10:18,230 S7: at her electorate office in Brisbane. You're going to hear 216 00:10:18,230 --> 00:10:21,790 S7: about a new digital law that she's spearheading to protect 217 00:10:21,790 --> 00:10:23,510 S7: children's health and wellbeing. 218 00:10:25,150 --> 00:10:28,230 S2: But in Australia in particular in the press gallery reporting 219 00:10:28,230 --> 00:10:31,949 S2: on this reform, there is a tendency to needle in 220 00:10:31,950 --> 00:10:35,030 S2: on the flaws, the messiness of how it's been put together. 221 00:10:35,350 --> 00:10:38,950 S2: This sense that only a week out, we're still adding 222 00:10:38,950 --> 00:10:42,510 S2: social media platforms to the ban. You're seeing the bipartisanship 223 00:10:42,510 --> 00:10:45,069 S2: on the coalition side, and they were actually the party 224 00:10:45,070 --> 00:10:49,250 S2: that first proposed this start to break away, they're questioning 225 00:10:49,250 --> 00:10:52,170 S2: whether it will work. They're saying that parents are worried 226 00:10:52,170 --> 00:10:54,770 S2: about data retention on the on the part of the 227 00:10:54,850 --> 00:10:58,170 S2: tech giants. You're saying teal MPs like Monique Ryan, who 228 00:10:58,170 --> 00:11:00,650 S2: support the essence of the ban, say, I don't think 229 00:11:00,650 --> 00:11:03,689 S2: this is going to work. And so you've got, on 230 00:11:03,690 --> 00:11:06,090 S2: the one hand, the government saying this is a momentous reform. 231 00:11:06,090 --> 00:11:08,490 S2: And it is in some ways. But there's this other 232 00:11:08,490 --> 00:11:10,570 S2: part of the debate about how it will work. And 233 00:11:10,570 --> 00:11:13,370 S2: over summer, as kids get bored during the school holiday period, 234 00:11:13,610 --> 00:11:16,290 S2: if there is a growing view that kids are just 235 00:11:16,290 --> 00:11:18,970 S2: getting around this through VPNs or using different apps like 236 00:11:19,010 --> 00:11:21,770 S2: Yope or lemonade, I don't know what those words meant 237 00:11:21,770 --> 00:11:24,130 S2: in a in an app sense until a week ago. 238 00:11:24,450 --> 00:11:28,729 S2: Then you could see a a growing narrative that this reform, 239 00:11:28,730 --> 00:11:30,809 S2: while worthy, is not practical. 240 00:11:31,170 --> 00:11:33,330 S1: Yeah. Or just that the government's done a not a 241 00:11:33,330 --> 00:11:35,530 S1: very good job at implementing it. So then it becomes 242 00:11:35,570 --> 00:11:37,610 S1: I mean and I agree like we don't know how 243 00:11:37,610 --> 00:11:41,170 S1: it's going to work. It seems very audacious and brave actually. 244 00:11:41,210 --> 00:11:44,210 S1: And I think most people would agree that it's a 245 00:11:44,210 --> 00:11:46,750 S1: good thing to try whether or not they get points 246 00:11:46,750 --> 00:11:49,510 S1: for trying if and when it sort of falls apart. 247 00:11:49,510 --> 00:11:54,030 S1: And yeah, like tweens and teens around the nation are way, 248 00:11:54,270 --> 00:11:56,550 S1: way savvier than the adults who are trying to police 249 00:11:56,550 --> 00:11:59,910 S1: them in getting around this stuff. It could become sort 250 00:11:59,910 --> 00:12:02,510 S1: of a competency issue for the Albanese government that they're 251 00:12:02,510 --> 00:12:06,510 S1: not particularly good at getting stuff done, particularly complex policy 252 00:12:06,510 --> 00:12:09,510 S1: reform like this. I mean, it'll be really interesting one 253 00:12:09,510 --> 00:12:11,310 S1: to watch because as I say, I do think it's 254 00:12:11,309 --> 00:12:14,510 S1: enormously popular. And it was it's a real winner. And 255 00:12:14,510 --> 00:12:17,229 S1: you sort of, you know, you can't really go wrong 256 00:12:17,429 --> 00:12:19,429 S1: when you're standing up to big tech giants who are 257 00:12:19,429 --> 00:12:22,110 S1: so on the nose internationally at the moment in terms 258 00:12:22,110 --> 00:12:25,910 S1: of their behaviour. And also it's protecting children and people 259 00:12:25,950 --> 00:12:27,430 S1: always want to do that. 260 00:12:27,470 --> 00:12:30,230 S3: I think like at the end of the day, this 261 00:12:30,230 --> 00:12:34,189 S3: is about kind of long term behavioural change. Yep. Um, 262 00:12:34,230 --> 00:12:37,309 S3: sending a signal. Yeah, yeah. And it's like, you know, 263 00:12:37,350 --> 00:12:40,589 S3: even even if the kind of tech element is like 264 00:12:40,630 --> 00:12:43,990 S3: half or two thirds effective at getting kids off the apps, 265 00:12:44,030 --> 00:12:47,940 S3: kind of what the intent is, is that you change 266 00:12:47,940 --> 00:12:50,780 S3: the kind of social norms or behaviors or expectations of 267 00:12:50,820 --> 00:12:54,380 S3: that age group over time. And so they've got a 268 00:12:54,420 --> 00:12:56,820 S3: two year review, I think, like an expert review of 269 00:12:56,820 --> 00:13:00,020 S3: Australian academics and overseas academics monitoring it. And it'll probably 270 00:13:00,020 --> 00:13:02,700 S3: take at least that long before we can actually tell. Yeah. 271 00:13:03,100 --> 00:13:05,180 S2: And she's a she's kind of at pains to point 272 00:13:05,179 --> 00:13:07,260 S2: out over and over. She's almost the first thing she 273 00:13:07,260 --> 00:13:10,380 S2: says when asked on this topic is that kids might 274 00:13:10,380 --> 00:13:13,060 S2: find a way around it. And she's fine. She's finding 275 00:13:13,059 --> 00:13:16,460 S2: new points to emphasize about how kids can get around it. 276 00:13:16,460 --> 00:13:17,900 S2: Like she said the other day, that you can get 277 00:13:17,900 --> 00:13:20,059 S2: your 17 year old brother to log you into Instagram. 278 00:13:20,059 --> 00:13:23,660 S2: So it's one of the only policy proposals I've seen 279 00:13:23,700 --> 00:13:27,179 S2: put forward where the government is trying to emphasize the 280 00:13:27,220 --> 00:13:28,819 S2: downside risk to manage. 281 00:13:29,059 --> 00:13:32,059 S3: The really tricky part of this is, is for that 282 00:13:32,059 --> 00:13:34,459 S3: current 13 to 16 year old age group, you're turning 283 00:13:34,460 --> 00:13:38,020 S3: the tap off. So this is the real troublesome point. 284 00:13:38,340 --> 00:13:41,860 S3: Whereas kind of eventually the whole point is you're not 285 00:13:42,220 --> 00:13:44,320 S3: turning the tap on for 13 year olds for a 286 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:46,400 S3: few years. So I think it's going to be hardest 287 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:48,120 S3: for this group of kids. And that's also why it's 288 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:49,760 S3: going to there's going to be a lot of evasion 289 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:50,200 S3: or whatever. 290 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:51,560 S2: They're like the existing smokers. 291 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:52,160 S3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 292 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:53,200 S2: The price of darts. 293 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:54,920 S1: Yeah. It's not it's not the kind of policy you 294 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,120 S1: can grandfather. So there'll be 13 year olds who are 295 00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:59,360 S1: or sort of 15 year olds will be turned off 296 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:00,760 S1: this week and be able to go back on next 297 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,280 S1: week when they turn 16. It's imperfect in that sense. 298 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:06,319 S1: But I mean, I've got a tween and it's just 299 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:08,480 S1: an easy way. It's actually quite a good way to 300 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:10,640 S1: open up a conversation about all this stuff. You know, 301 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:12,680 S1: they hear on the news and you can say, there's 302 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:16,040 S1: a lot of talk now about why adults, you know, 303 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,880 S1: why this stuff maybe isn't so good for children. Social 304 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,040 S1: media can be harmful for them. It's all about protecting 305 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:23,640 S1: your brain, that kind of stuff. So look, I do 306 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:25,560 S1: think it's really popular, but it's going to be really, 307 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,080 S1: really interesting to see how it's implemented. And if it's messy, 308 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,320 S1: it might end up it might end up going to 309 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,640 S1: the government's competence as we talked about before. It was 310 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:36,360 S1: Senate estimates this week. But Paul, it wasn't supposed to 311 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,000 S1: be Senate estimates. The Senate estimates week was sort of 312 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:42,340 S1: forced upon them all by independent Senator David Pocock. How 313 00:14:42,340 --> 00:14:43,140 S1: did that happen? 314 00:14:44,020 --> 00:14:46,220 S2: Yeah. So this wasn't booked in this final week of 315 00:14:46,220 --> 00:14:48,660 S2: Senate estimates. So Senate estimates means that the senators are 316 00:14:48,660 --> 00:14:51,700 S2: here grilling bureaucrats. All the members of the House of Representatives, 317 00:14:51,700 --> 00:14:55,180 S2: 151 or however many it is, are back in the electorate. 318 00:14:55,180 --> 00:15:00,580 S2: It's only the 76 senators. David Pocock, the Act independent senator, 319 00:15:00,620 --> 00:15:03,980 S2: big on transparency, big on government accountability. He had been 320 00:15:03,980 --> 00:15:07,300 S2: pushing labor to release this report called the Briggs Report, 321 00:15:07,300 --> 00:15:09,580 S2: which they'd been sitting on for, I think, more than 322 00:15:09,580 --> 00:15:12,900 S2: a year commissioned during the Morrison know, commissioned by labor 323 00:15:12,940 --> 00:15:13,540 S2: two years. 324 00:15:13,580 --> 00:15:13,940 S1: Yeah. 325 00:15:13,980 --> 00:15:18,420 S2: Natasha says two years. Commissioned by commissioned by labor. After 326 00:15:18,420 --> 00:15:21,940 S2: a long running debate about the Morrison government stacking boards 327 00:15:21,940 --> 00:15:26,260 S2: and other organizations with political appointments labor had commissioned, the review, 328 00:15:26,300 --> 00:15:29,620 S2: had its recommendations on the ministerial desk, and spent a 329 00:15:29,660 --> 00:15:32,620 S2: long time agonizing over what to do because they also 330 00:15:32,620 --> 00:15:35,980 S2: make some political appointments. And David Pocock thought this was 331 00:15:35,980 --> 00:15:39,300 S2: a disgrace, and effectively teamed up with the coalition to 332 00:15:39,860 --> 00:15:43,480 S2: Penalize Penalise Labour for not releasing this report, and part 333 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,040 S2: of that penalty was to add an additional week of 334 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:50,200 S2: estimates on. So Penny Wong and Katy Gallagher, the Labour 335 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,480 S2: leaders in the Senate, have been complaining privately to coalition 336 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:55,880 S2: MPs this week, saying, you know, we didn't want to 337 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:57,720 S2: be here. You don't want to be here either. Why 338 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,120 S2: are you working with Pocock? We had the Prime Minister's 339 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:01,760 S2: wedding on Saturday and all we had to do was 340 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:05,320 S2: prepare for estimates. So there's lots of grumbling across Canberra. 341 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,040 S2: The coalition people are flat as a tack. Don't really 342 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:10,120 S2: want to be here. Labor ministers don't want to be 343 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:11,960 S2: defending these questions. But here we all are. 344 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,480 S3: I think, though, that also just like as a throw 345 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,600 S3: forward to next year, this kind of emerging alliance on 346 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,880 S3: certain things between coalition Greens and Pocock, it's kind of 347 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,920 S3: like an unholy trinity of of independent centre right opposition 348 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:29,520 S3: and left. And because they are finding points, they're finding 349 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,720 S3: points to cross. And it really annoys the government. 350 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,240 S1: It's the beauty of the bicameral system that, you know, 351 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,680 S1: governments almost never control the Senate. So it's a real wildcard. 352 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,790 S1: And it always, always annoys the hell out of them. 353 00:16:42,030 --> 00:16:43,870 S1: The fight that all of this was about was this 354 00:16:43,870 --> 00:16:47,910 S1: report a very sort of bold and dynamic title, I 355 00:16:47,910 --> 00:16:50,430 S1: thought called No Favorites. And as you say, it was 356 00:16:50,430 --> 00:16:54,710 S1: commissioned in 2023. It was basically about government board appointments. So, 357 00:16:54,750 --> 00:16:56,590 S1: you know, there's all of these government boards like I 358 00:16:56,590 --> 00:16:58,190 S1: was having a look at them. There's so many of 359 00:16:58,190 --> 00:17:02,070 S1: them like Airservices Australia Board, the Australia Post Board, Australian 360 00:17:02,070 --> 00:17:04,830 S1: Building Codes Board, you know, things in more high profile 361 00:17:04,830 --> 00:17:06,750 S1: things like the board of the ABC. And they all 362 00:17:06,750 --> 00:17:11,550 S1: need people highly qualified. One hopes meritocratic appointments to these boards. 363 00:17:11,550 --> 00:17:15,869 S1: But governments often have been known to disappoint their mates 364 00:17:15,910 --> 00:17:18,350 S1: or people who are former politicians or people who have 365 00:17:18,350 --> 00:17:20,230 S1: been good to, you know, good to the party in 366 00:17:20,230 --> 00:17:23,670 S1: whatever way. The Morrison government was notorious for it. And 367 00:17:23,670 --> 00:17:26,910 S1: particularly with the Administrative Appeals Tribunal, which is a very 368 00:17:26,910 --> 00:17:30,110 S1: important it's not actually a government board. It's a very important, 369 00:17:30,350 --> 00:17:35,030 S1: you know, legal institution basically that oversees, um, and scrutinises 370 00:17:35,070 --> 00:17:40,730 S1: government decisions. And they were absolute bandits for political appointments 371 00:17:40,730 --> 00:17:42,730 S1: to that to the eight. So much so that the 372 00:17:42,970 --> 00:17:45,409 S1: that the labor opposition actually made a big thing of 373 00:17:45,410 --> 00:17:49,250 S1: it and ended up abolishing that the 18 and replacing 374 00:17:49,250 --> 00:17:52,210 S1: it with the art. So that's sort of the background, right. 375 00:17:52,369 --> 00:17:54,850 S1: So they've made a big deal about this in opposition. 376 00:17:55,050 --> 00:17:58,050 S1: And then they've come into government, commissioned a report about it. 377 00:17:58,050 --> 00:18:00,850 S1: And then they've said on the report for a long time, Paul, 378 00:18:00,850 --> 00:18:02,770 S1: why would they do that? And what did the report 379 00:18:02,810 --> 00:18:03,770 S1: sort of find? 380 00:18:04,450 --> 00:18:07,369 S2: The report recommended stripping a lot of power from the 381 00:18:07,369 --> 00:18:10,410 S2: government to make political appointments, not allowing them to make 382 00:18:10,410 --> 00:18:13,090 S2: them within six months of an election, because that's seen 383 00:18:13,090 --> 00:18:15,170 S2: as a period where you can make some contentious calls 384 00:18:15,170 --> 00:18:19,090 S2: just before you might lose power. And effectively, without going 385 00:18:19,090 --> 00:18:23,170 S2: into too much detail on the recommendations, they recommended a 386 00:18:23,170 --> 00:18:26,770 S2: total overhaul of how appointments work to make it much 387 00:18:26,770 --> 00:18:29,690 S2: harder for government to put in friends of a political 388 00:18:29,690 --> 00:18:33,010 S2: party or former MPs or former staff into bodies. Labor 389 00:18:33,050 --> 00:18:35,810 S2: wanted to do some of it, but not all because 390 00:18:35,810 --> 00:18:38,190 S2: they think there's a balance to be struck here. They 391 00:18:38,190 --> 00:18:40,550 S2: do want to appoint Kevin Rudd to be an ambassador. 392 00:18:40,670 --> 00:18:42,550 S2: They do want to appoint Kim Beazley to be the 393 00:18:42,550 --> 00:18:46,510 S2: war memorial director or chairman or whatever he is. But 394 00:18:46,510 --> 00:18:48,790 S2: they do think there's a problem that needs to be solved. 395 00:18:48,950 --> 00:18:52,590 S2: And this is a similar kind of dynamic. You see 396 00:18:52,630 --> 00:18:54,790 S2: play out with labor on a bunch of different transparency 397 00:18:54,790 --> 00:18:58,389 S2: issues now where they came into power wanting to reverse 398 00:18:58,390 --> 00:19:01,590 S2: course on the Morrison era, which was seen to be, 399 00:19:01,790 --> 00:19:05,910 S2: you know, a degradation of how good government operates, maybe 400 00:19:05,910 --> 00:19:08,869 S2: played up and exaggerated by labor. And then on Labor's 401 00:19:08,869 --> 00:19:12,230 S2: left flank now, particularly with David Pocock, who's becoming a 402 00:19:12,270 --> 00:19:16,350 S2: real figure of annoyance for labor, he can always outflank 403 00:19:16,390 --> 00:19:19,470 S2: them on the transparency side. And he's expert at using 404 00:19:19,470 --> 00:19:23,590 S2: social media and traditional media to portray labor as not 405 00:19:23,630 --> 00:19:26,909 S2: interested in integrity. And on this issue, labor needs to 406 00:19:26,950 --> 00:19:30,070 S2: find a middle path through where they can continue to 407 00:19:30,109 --> 00:19:33,510 S2: make politically expedient decisions, but also appear to be less 408 00:19:33,510 --> 00:19:37,700 S2: corrupt than previous governments. but they've got David Pocock making 409 00:19:37,700 --> 00:19:40,780 S2: them making them appear. Yeah. You know, not quite pure enough. 410 00:19:40,820 --> 00:19:43,540 S1: Yeah. It's interesting sort of turning of the tables because 411 00:19:43,900 --> 00:19:46,140 S1: and I think it's called gray corruption. So it's not 412 00:19:46,140 --> 00:19:49,060 S1: like sort of, you know, cash piles of cash in 413 00:19:49,060 --> 00:19:52,179 S1: brown paper bag type corruption. But it is the sort of, 414 00:19:52,220 --> 00:19:56,420 S1: as you say, the the rewarding of friends with appointments 415 00:19:56,420 --> 00:20:00,540 S1: that are often very, very well remunerated, like we're talking 416 00:20:00,580 --> 00:20:03,100 S1: sort of salaries in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. 417 00:20:03,420 --> 00:20:06,700 S1: And it over time, as the, as the report sort 418 00:20:06,700 --> 00:20:10,260 S1: of makes clear, erodes public trust in institutions. It further 419 00:20:10,260 --> 00:20:13,180 S1: erodes public trust in politicians because, you know, voters get 420 00:20:13,180 --> 00:20:15,620 S1: the sense that politicians are only in it for themselves 421 00:20:15,619 --> 00:20:18,580 S1: and maybe to enrich or help their mates. So it 422 00:20:18,580 --> 00:20:21,100 S1: is it is an issue. And I think I personally 423 00:20:21,100 --> 00:20:23,020 S1: think it was a it was a major issue along 424 00:20:23,020 --> 00:20:25,619 S1: with sports rorts for painting this picture of the Morrison 425 00:20:25,619 --> 00:20:30,380 S1: government as being very self-interested and interested in in themselves 426 00:20:30,380 --> 00:20:33,100 S1: above and beyond the interests of the Australian people. 427 00:20:33,140 --> 00:20:36,120 S2: And Morrison with the eight like the Liberal Party like. 428 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,200 S2: To be blunt, they started to take the piss with 429 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,680 S2: the eight like they were. They were 85. I think 430 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,400 S2: it's 85 MPs, staffers or former party associates. But and 431 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:45,000 S2: that's labor. 432 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,560 S1: That those jobs. I mean, you require, you know, solid 433 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,040 S1: legal minds to do those jobs. It's actually a very 434 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,720 S1: important arm of government. The the old art. So yeah, 435 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,920 S1: that was that was actually quite egregious. But I remember 436 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,280 S1: the yeah, the labor opposition, Tony Burke at the time, 437 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,560 S1: they were so onto it, they were really upset about it. 438 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:04,359 S1: They made a big deal of it. And to their credit, 439 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:06,480 S1: they actually sort of, you know, got a little bit 440 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:08,840 S1: of sort of public, um, they got a little bit 441 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:10,600 S1: of publicity over it, even though it was a pretty 442 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:14,440 S1: dry area of administrative sort of law. And now they're 443 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,320 S1: being scrutinised and it's not so fun on the other side. 444 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,560 S2: Yeah. And labor knows that say for example, the the 445 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,520 S2: Australia Post board or any bunch of these kinds of 446 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:29,280 S2: important agencies, labor knows that some of their former MPs 447 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,960 S2: and party officials have the kind of executive authority and 448 00:21:33,740 --> 00:21:37,419 S2: political go getter mindset to to play important roles in 449 00:21:37,420 --> 00:21:40,540 S2: some of these bodies. So it's not it's not that 450 00:21:40,540 --> 00:21:42,780 S2: easy to find a bureaucrat with no link to a 451 00:21:42,780 --> 00:21:46,300 S2: political party to go and do these roles for people 452 00:21:46,300 --> 00:21:48,500 S2: who have been involved in politics or had had a 453 00:21:48,500 --> 00:21:50,820 S2: role for a period in a ministerial office, are often 454 00:21:50,820 --> 00:21:54,300 S2: the best suited person for a job. So Labor's trying 455 00:21:54,300 --> 00:21:57,699 S2: to strike that balance, and we probably don't help in 456 00:21:57,700 --> 00:22:00,139 S2: the media where we scrutinize every single one of these 457 00:22:00,140 --> 00:22:03,380 S2: decisions as if they are gray corruption, when sometimes these 458 00:22:03,380 --> 00:22:04,340 S2: other people for a job. 459 00:22:04,340 --> 00:22:06,780 S1: No, I mean, I would I would disagree on that 460 00:22:06,780 --> 00:22:09,540 S1: because I think what the report says is not don't 461 00:22:09,540 --> 00:22:14,020 S1: make political appointments because as like politicians, former politicians have skills. 462 00:22:14,020 --> 00:22:17,699 S1: They know how government works, they have personal relationships. You know, 463 00:22:17,740 --> 00:22:19,900 S1: they have a lot of knowledge and experience to bring 464 00:22:19,940 --> 00:22:21,860 S1: to the kinds of things, you know, the kinds of 465 00:22:21,859 --> 00:22:24,179 S1: things they need for a government board role. But I 466 00:22:24,180 --> 00:22:26,220 S1: think the report just says that's fine, but they need 467 00:22:26,220 --> 00:22:28,020 S1: to go through a process like they need to apply 468 00:22:28,020 --> 00:22:30,979 S1: for it like everybody else does, which is perhaps is 469 00:22:30,980 --> 00:22:33,639 S1: not always convenient if you're the government minister and you 470 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:35,560 S1: just need someone to be appointed straight away, and it's 471 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,080 S1: just easier to pop them in there. But, um, I 472 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,959 S1: guess you've got to balance that against the public trust issue. 473 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,199 S1: Very interesting stuff. We know also, Albanese has been on 474 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,159 S1: his honeymoon this week. Any ideas where he's been on 475 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:47,680 S1: his honeymoon? 476 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,119 S2: Guys in Australia, as all we know. Not Hawaii. 477 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,520 S1: Okay. And maybe, um, he played for his own flights. 478 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:55,000 S1: I'm sure. 479 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,680 S3: They were. They were papped at the airport with the punters. 480 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,719 S2: In the Sydney International terminal. Domestic terminal? 481 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:04,800 S3: Terminal, please. Yeah. 482 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:06,960 S1: Okay. So what did they sit down? Did they sit 483 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,400 S1: down in the general area and, like, read the paper 484 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,640 S1: and like, have a coffee with the with the hoi 485 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:12,639 S1: polloi or were they in the. 486 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,240 S3: Corners holding both the bags. 487 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:15,399 S1: Oh, gentlemen. 488 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:17,080 S3: So no bag carrier. 489 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:19,920 S1: Yeah, yeah. Okay, good. Well, we wish them well, I think. 490 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,639 S3: Just two normal people in a honeymoon over December. 491 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:24,800 S2: Anika Wells could take some pointers on how to do 492 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:26,400 S2: how to do air travel the right way. 493 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,280 S1: Good luck to them. I think the Anthony Albanese and 494 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,869 S1: Jodie Hayden back this weekend and I'm sure on the 495 00:23:33,869 --> 00:23:36,030 S1: Prime Minister will be on deck for work next week 496 00:23:36,030 --> 00:23:39,110 S1: I think. Guys, thanks so much. That was fun as always, 497 00:23:39,109 --> 00:23:40,870 S1: and I'll see you next week. 498 00:23:40,910 --> 00:23:41,710 S2: Talk to you next week. 499 00:23:41,750 --> 00:23:42,310 S3: Bye! 500 00:23:49,710 --> 00:23:52,910 S1: Today's episode was produced by Kai Wong with technical assistance 501 00:23:52,910 --> 00:23:56,710 S1: from Debbie Harrington. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills, and 502 00:23:56,710 --> 00:24:00,710 S1: special thanks to Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. To listen 503 00:24:00,710 --> 00:24:03,149 S1: to our episodes as soon as they drop, follow Inside 504 00:24:03,150 --> 00:24:06,389 S1: Politics on Apple, Spotify or anywhere else you listen to 505 00:24:06,390 --> 00:24:09,909 S1: your podcasts. To stay up to date with all the politics, 506 00:24:09,910 --> 00:24:12,630 S1: news and exclusives, visit The Age and The Sydney Morning 507 00:24:12,630 --> 00:24:16,350 S1: Herald website. And to support our journalism, subscribe to us 508 00:24:16,350 --> 00:24:23,510 S1: by visiting the page or smh.com.au. I'm Jacqueline Maley. Thank 509 00:24:23,550 --> 00:24:24,310 S1: you for listening.