1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:04,000 S1: Hi, I'm Odessa Blayne, executive producer of the f w 2 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:08,440 S1: Leadership Series podcast. This season we're doing something a little 3 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:12,600 S1: different putting your leadership questions to Helen at the end 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,400 S1: of each episode. It's a chance to ask Helen what's 5 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:19,440 S1: on your mind, your workplace dilemmas, conundrums, or pet hates. 6 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:21,920 S1: We love voice notes. Or you can send us your 7 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:26,320 S1: written questions at hello at women.com. We'll put the link 8 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:28,440 S1: in the show notes. Enjoy the show. 9 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:34,559 S2: Hi, I'm Helen McCabe, managing director and founder of F W. 10 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,440 S2: I began life as a journalist, held senior roles in newspapers, 11 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:43,080 S2: edited Australia's largest magazine, and in 2018 I launched my 12 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:47,200 S2: own business. F W is dedicated to helping women navigate 13 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:51,280 S2: their working lives. But I've made my share of mistakes, 14 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:55,040 S2: especially as a leader. In this series, I go in 15 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:59,040 S2: search of answers to often complex leadership challenges. I explore 16 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:01,670 S2: the latest thinking on how to be a great leader 17 00:01:01,670 --> 00:01:04,470 S2: and return to the tried and true methods to better 18 00:01:04,470 --> 00:01:11,030 S2: understand what works and in what situations. My guest this 19 00:01:11,030 --> 00:01:14,430 S2: week is Nicole Scurrah. Nicole is a friend and an 20 00:01:14,470 --> 00:01:17,710 S2: accomplished leader. She was chief of staff to Queensland Premier 21 00:01:17,709 --> 00:01:21,949 S2: Anna Bligh, Telstra Health's chief operating officer and most recently 22 00:01:21,950 --> 00:01:24,910 S2: a partner at Sayers Group. She's well known in the 23 00:01:24,910 --> 00:01:28,069 S2: industry for taking a team from Sayers Group to set 24 00:01:28,110 --> 00:01:32,149 S2: up a rival entity. Today, Nicole is founder and executive 25 00:01:32,150 --> 00:01:36,429 S2: chair of Create Advisory. In this episode, she talks about 26 00:01:36,430 --> 00:01:39,430 S2: how to be a great leader when people are your 27 00:01:39,430 --> 00:01:49,590 S2: least favorite part of the job. Nicole, welcome to the podcast. 28 00:01:49,590 --> 00:01:52,470 S3: Thank you. Tell me, when is the. 29 00:01:52,470 --> 00:01:57,550 S2: Very first time that you led a team? 30 00:01:57,890 --> 00:02:00,770 S4: But it's a hard one because I think he got 31 00:02:00,770 --> 00:02:05,410 S4: leading teams before you actually think about it. So. Exactly. Um, 32 00:02:05,530 --> 00:02:09,650 S4: I think maybe back when I was a loan officer 33 00:02:09,650 --> 00:02:13,570 S4: in Westpac Bank in Victoria and I had to work 34 00:02:13,570 --> 00:02:15,890 S4: with all of the tellers back in the days when 35 00:02:15,930 --> 00:02:19,850 S4: branch managers and loan officers made decisions. And I worked 36 00:02:19,850 --> 00:02:23,450 S4: with the tellers and they were amazing. They knew all 37 00:02:23,450 --> 00:02:27,090 S4: the clients and customers, and I actually think that was 38 00:02:27,090 --> 00:02:29,890 S4: the first time. But without realizing it. 39 00:02:29,970 --> 00:02:31,770 S2: I think that's right. You know, I think you do 40 00:02:31,810 --> 00:02:33,570 S2: sort of it sort of creeps up on you, doesn't it? 41 00:02:33,610 --> 00:02:36,810 S2: And then suddenly you find yourself in strife. Yeah. You 42 00:02:36,810 --> 00:02:38,610 S2: need to look around and go, oh my goodness, I'm 43 00:02:38,610 --> 00:02:41,329 S2: actually in charge here. And I didn't quite get any 44 00:02:41,330 --> 00:02:43,810 S2: training or think about it. Tell me, who were your 45 00:02:43,810 --> 00:02:47,850 S2: leadership teachers? Who do you think has been influential on 46 00:02:47,889 --> 00:02:49,050 S2: your leadership style? 47 00:02:49,050 --> 00:02:52,290 S4: I definitely think while going back to that time and 48 00:02:52,290 --> 00:02:55,330 S4: Sherry was the CEO of Westpac and they'd worked out 49 00:02:55,330 --> 00:03:00,280 S4: that getting women back into the branches was fundamental. And 50 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,600 S4: so they started doing things like maternity leave, and they 51 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:08,000 S4: built themselves a childcare center. And I thought that was 52 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,560 S4: amazing and unfortunate that I still know an even though 53 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,600 S4: at that time I knew who she was but had 54 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,520 S4: no idea who she was, if you get what I mean. 55 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,440 S4: But I have to single out Anna Bligh, who I 56 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,600 S4: had the great fortune of working for for many years. 57 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:27,720 S4: And man, she is an amazing human being, both at 58 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,320 S4: the leader and both as a and as a human. Yeah. 59 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:34,440 S2: You've just named two really excellent people. I would probably 60 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:37,240 S2: talk about both of them too, if I was being 61 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:41,440 S2: asked those questions. And Cherie just didn't know me from Adam, 62 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:44,240 S2: but if I ever asked to see her would make time. 63 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:46,720 S2: And then I would say, I'm building this business. What 64 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:50,040 S2: do you think? And she would go, yes, no, or whatever. 65 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,440 S2: And I'd just been such a supporter and always turned 66 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,020 S2: up for anything I've asked her to. And I could 67 00:03:55,020 --> 00:03:56,860 S2: talk about end of life for some time, but I 68 00:03:56,860 --> 00:03:59,420 S2: first really met her when she walked into my office 69 00:04:00,140 --> 00:04:03,420 S2: and told me she'd been diagnosed with cancer. Yeah. And 70 00:04:03,460 --> 00:04:05,980 S2: I was working on a national magazine at the time 71 00:04:05,980 --> 00:04:08,260 S2: called Women's Weekly, and she agreed to be photographed as 72 00:04:08,260 --> 00:04:10,740 S2: she fought cancer. Actually, I think I first met her 73 00:04:10,740 --> 00:04:13,700 S2: when she was running the floods. Were you working for 74 00:04:13,700 --> 00:04:17,620 S2: her then? Yes, yes, yes, that was an incredible period 75 00:04:17,779 --> 00:04:18,460 S2: of leadership. 76 00:04:18,500 --> 00:04:23,700 S4: Amazing. Amazing human who just actually know how to connect 77 00:04:23,700 --> 00:04:29,700 S4: with people, had no ego, high levels of intelligence, and 78 00:04:29,940 --> 00:04:34,140 S4: not just similar, not dissimilar to Anne, but seems to 79 00:04:34,380 --> 00:04:37,260 S4: have an ability to help whoever. 80 00:04:37,300 --> 00:04:40,020 S2: So how do you get to be a politician, Nicole 81 00:04:40,020 --> 00:04:42,260 S2: and Premier and not have an ego? 82 00:04:42,740 --> 00:04:47,500 S4: It's actually interesting, I think, that some people get into 83 00:04:47,500 --> 00:04:51,140 S4: politics for the power and other people get into politics 84 00:04:51,140 --> 00:04:55,849 S4: for the passion. And not by this agnostic of what 85 00:04:56,010 --> 00:04:59,930 S4: politics they believe in. I think they do it because 86 00:04:59,930 --> 00:05:04,050 S4: they feel this overwhelming desire. Just like in business to 87 00:05:04,089 --> 00:05:08,850 S4: actually do something different or make a difference. You know, 88 00:05:08,850 --> 00:05:12,650 S4: when you look at entrepreneur, really, they start business because 89 00:05:12,650 --> 00:05:15,770 S4: they feel like they've got an idea and that idea 90 00:05:15,810 --> 00:05:18,650 S4: might make a difference. I think a lot of the 91 00:05:18,650 --> 00:05:23,330 S4: politicians that get into politics with conviction, no matter what 92 00:05:23,330 --> 00:05:26,650 S4: that is, get into it. Not to stroke their ego, 93 00:05:26,650 --> 00:05:29,330 S4: but they think that if they're in it, they can 94 00:05:29,450 --> 00:05:31,570 S4: do the thing that will make a difference. 95 00:05:31,610 --> 00:05:33,770 S2: I still think it's rare to find people in politics 96 00:05:33,770 --> 00:05:35,289 S2: that don't have egos. I think it's rare to find 97 00:05:35,290 --> 00:05:38,970 S2: people in leadership positions that don't have egos. And I 98 00:05:39,010 --> 00:05:43,330 S2: suspect you're not someone with a big ego either. What 99 00:05:43,330 --> 00:05:48,770 S2: would you say is your superpower? Your superpower? What are 100 00:05:48,770 --> 00:05:54,870 S2: you really good at? Not much. Um. that is not true. Uh. 101 00:05:55,150 --> 00:05:59,190 S4: I think, I think I'm stubborn. I think my superpower 102 00:05:59,190 --> 00:06:02,670 S4: is stubbornness. So once I make my mind up that 103 00:06:02,670 --> 00:06:05,909 S4: I'm going to do something, I sort of can't be deterred. 104 00:06:06,110 --> 00:06:11,550 S4: And I think that if you do something, actually having 105 00:06:11,550 --> 00:06:16,750 S4: the stubbornness to see it through, it can sometimes be 106 00:06:16,750 --> 00:06:19,190 S4: a blessing and a curse. So I'm not sure I 107 00:06:19,230 --> 00:06:22,990 S4: put that in as down as a superpower because there's 108 00:06:22,990 --> 00:06:26,070 S4: plenty of superpowers I'd like to have. But look, I 109 00:06:26,070 --> 00:06:29,910 S4: think I just say, I think once I turned my 110 00:06:29,910 --> 00:06:33,310 S4: mind to something like pretty much go and do it 111 00:06:33,310 --> 00:06:35,830 S4: even no matter what the consequences are. 112 00:06:47,950 --> 00:06:50,700 S2: So how do you hire and who do you hire 113 00:06:50,700 --> 00:06:54,419 S2: and what are you looking for when you, you are putting, um, 114 00:06:54,460 --> 00:06:56,180 S2: your actual team together? 115 00:06:56,220 --> 00:07:01,020 S4: I think even if you assess yourself critically, I think 116 00:07:01,020 --> 00:07:04,300 S4: what you realize is that what you've got to have 117 00:07:04,339 --> 00:07:07,140 S4: is a bunch of people around you that aren't you. 118 00:07:07,460 --> 00:07:12,020 S4: And so for hiring, definitely try and find people that 119 00:07:12,020 --> 00:07:16,260 S4: don't have the same skill set, but definitely have the same, 120 00:07:16,300 --> 00:07:20,420 S4: if I can call it ambition or desire. And it's 121 00:07:20,420 --> 00:07:23,179 S4: not good or bad. But you know, we try and 122 00:07:23,180 --> 00:07:28,100 S4: pride ourselves on doing high quality work. So different skill set, 123 00:07:28,140 --> 00:07:31,060 S4: but I definitely try and find the same sort of 124 00:07:31,100 --> 00:07:35,780 S4: cultural fit would be, you know, know how to have fun, 125 00:07:35,780 --> 00:07:38,220 S4: but know how to work hard, know how to be 126 00:07:38,220 --> 00:07:43,100 S4: dedicated to quality, but know how to bring a different perspective. 127 00:07:43,580 --> 00:07:47,340 S4: So I think you need to compliment yourself. We recently 128 00:07:47,340 --> 00:07:52,520 S4: did something at team building exercise around assessing our skill 129 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:56,520 S4: set and the. You know, no surprises to me, but 130 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:01,720 S4: I scored second, last and last on categorizations of empathy 131 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,600 S4: and woo woo is like being able to charm people, 132 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:08,320 S4: but I was very glad to see that there were 133 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:11,400 S4: some people in my team that scored number one on woo. 134 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:13,960 S4: And so, you know, I actually think that goes to 135 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,080 S4: get the same culture but get very different skills. And 136 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:18,200 S4: that's what I look for. 137 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:22,360 S2: So asking for a friend, how do you interview for 138 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:23,240 S2: work ethic? 139 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:27,160 S4: That's the hardest thing. But I think if people tell 140 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:29,440 S4: you the types of things that they're done in the 141 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:33,520 S4: past and how they, you know, your classic questions, oh, 142 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,840 S4: you know, well, what do you like doing? They start with, oh, well, 143 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,280 S4: I'll always take a shortcut. Mind you, that's how they 144 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:44,680 S4: hire technology developers is they want people that are as 145 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:46,760 S4: lazy as possible. I learnt this when I was at 146 00:08:46,790 --> 00:08:50,309 S4: Telstra Health, because they'll work out the shortest way to 147 00:08:50,350 --> 00:08:53,190 S4: write code. And I was like, wow, that is so 148 00:08:53,190 --> 00:08:56,670 S4: different to what you get taught along the way to, 149 00:08:56,710 --> 00:09:00,070 S4: you know, you don't want anyone to cut some fine shortcuts. 150 00:09:00,070 --> 00:09:02,830 S4: But I just think if you talk to people, you 151 00:09:03,070 --> 00:09:05,870 S4: as a general rule, I think your gut tells you 152 00:09:05,870 --> 00:09:08,870 S4: whether or not people have a good work ethic. Like 153 00:09:08,870 --> 00:09:12,190 S4: the passion in which people talk about their work often 154 00:09:12,190 --> 00:09:13,350 S4: describes a lot. 155 00:09:13,990 --> 00:09:17,189 S2: All right. Well, let's talk about your you've got your team. 156 00:09:17,470 --> 00:09:19,990 S2: And I'll just repeat for our listeners that you now 157 00:09:19,990 --> 00:09:23,270 S2: run a very successful consulting business that you you sort 158 00:09:23,309 --> 00:09:25,830 S2: of put together, not really mindfully, right? It sort of 159 00:09:25,870 --> 00:09:28,070 S2: accidentally happened. Is that fair to say or would you 160 00:09:28,070 --> 00:09:33,110 S2: say absolutely no. Absolutely. Yeah. And 12 or so people 161 00:09:33,110 --> 00:09:37,110 S2: followed you. So you've obviously a leader. If people wake 162 00:09:37,110 --> 00:09:38,550 S2: up and go, I'm just going to go and work 163 00:09:38,590 --> 00:09:42,110 S2: with Nicole because that seems like it'll be fun. Like 164 00:09:42,670 --> 00:09:45,490 S2: it's a lot. It's a big it's a big Like 165 00:09:45,490 --> 00:09:48,170 S2: a big endorsement of who you are and what you do. 166 00:09:48,809 --> 00:09:51,490 S2: And the business is going really well. And now you 167 00:09:51,650 --> 00:09:54,170 S2: are in that classic phase of being an entrepreneur with 168 00:09:54,170 --> 00:09:57,530 S2: all of the challenges of being an entrepreneur. So talk 169 00:09:57,530 --> 00:10:00,890 S2: to me a little bit about how you have you 170 00:10:00,929 --> 00:10:05,170 S2: navigate the day to day challenges of running a, running 171 00:10:05,170 --> 00:10:07,410 S2: a business, particularly as you know, the world is as 172 00:10:07,410 --> 00:10:08,569 S2: uncertain as it is right now. 173 00:10:08,809 --> 00:10:13,050 S4: Yeah. So when we left, um, when we decided to 174 00:10:13,090 --> 00:10:17,810 S4: leave based on a value based decision, there were things 175 00:10:17,809 --> 00:10:23,209 S4: that we'd seen that we, I guess were mostly driven 176 00:10:23,210 --> 00:10:25,890 S4: and this might be perceived as not the right way 177 00:10:25,890 --> 00:10:28,410 S4: to be driven, but from what we didn't have, we 178 00:10:28,410 --> 00:10:31,770 S4: didn't want to run the business. And so that came 179 00:10:31,770 --> 00:10:35,370 S4: to like it, I guess, drove everything from how we 180 00:10:35,370 --> 00:10:39,610 S4: appoint the board to how the team really valued working 181 00:10:39,610 --> 00:10:43,650 S4: really hard, but getting longer. Li all of those things 182 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:48,560 S4: I find, like the single thing I find hardest if 183 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:53,679 S4: the people thing. Just because people are people. And that's definitely, 184 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:58,400 S4: I would say, both a personal area of weakness. Plus 185 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,360 S4: the thing I find the most challenging. The other thing 186 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,080 S4: I find the most challenging as well, I have to say, 187 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:07,560 S4: is in the first year I probably spent, you know, 188 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,679 S4: because everyone starts out starry eyed, they're going to be successful. 189 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,120 S4: It's all going to go smoothly. Well, the reality is 190 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:17,320 S4: you spend 95% of your time doing the things that 191 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,640 S4: really you perceive, not to add any value to the business. 192 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,160 S4: And 5% of the time, doing the things that you 193 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,600 S4: thought would be 95% of your time and fun. So, 194 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,680 S4: you know, you spend all your time setting up your systems, 195 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:35,640 S4: your payroll, your policies, debating with people around, uh, what 196 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:40,280 S4: their REM should be, how we should manage policies like 197 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:44,620 S4: parental leave and what social media presence we should have, 198 00:11:44,620 --> 00:11:46,980 S4: what that should look like, how we should present to 199 00:11:46,980 --> 00:11:50,500 S4: the market, what we should charge clients. You spend all 200 00:11:50,500 --> 00:11:53,939 S4: your time doing that stuff there. The challenges I think 201 00:11:53,980 --> 00:11:57,059 S4: of when you're doing any business, as well as the 202 00:11:57,059 --> 00:12:00,180 S4: sleepless nights as to have I made the right decision? 203 00:12:00,179 --> 00:12:02,500 S4: AM I going to be able to pay someone? And 204 00:12:02,660 --> 00:12:06,860 S4: I think to your point, Helen, like it wasn't deliberate 205 00:12:07,020 --> 00:12:10,420 S4: that we left and we started in every jurisdiction with 206 00:12:10,420 --> 00:12:13,660 S4: really highly qualified group of people. And that means a 207 00:12:13,660 --> 00:12:18,260 S4: large payroll. And I think I underestimated the stress that 208 00:12:18,260 --> 00:12:22,540 S4: comes along with it. Fear of good human. You actually 209 00:12:22,540 --> 00:12:24,700 S4: worry about the things that you don't think you're going 210 00:12:24,740 --> 00:12:28,980 S4: to worry about. Like on my goodness, if this doesn't 211 00:12:28,980 --> 00:12:31,940 S4: succeed and I let these people down, they've got young 212 00:12:31,940 --> 00:12:35,220 S4: kids and a mortgage, and they're the things that got 213 00:12:35,220 --> 00:12:37,540 S4: to me the most and still get to me the most. 214 00:12:37,860 --> 00:12:39,620 S2: But, but I just want to pick up on something 215 00:12:39,620 --> 00:12:43,290 S2: you said about about people. People being people. As someone 216 00:12:43,290 --> 00:12:48,330 S2: who who finds that bit tough. How do you. Because 217 00:12:48,330 --> 00:12:50,010 S2: to be honest, most people don't come on this leadership 218 00:12:50,010 --> 00:12:53,730 S2: podcast and say, I find the people bit annoying. Most 219 00:12:53,730 --> 00:12:55,890 S2: come on and say, I love people. I really like 220 00:12:55,890 --> 00:12:58,490 S2: working with people. What I'm good at is people. So 221 00:12:58,530 --> 00:13:00,329 S2: let's talk about people for a bit. 222 00:13:01,690 --> 00:13:05,490 S4: Oh no, I think, look, I'm not the person to 223 00:13:05,530 --> 00:13:08,210 S4: ask everyone who works here. The people to ask. But 224 00:13:08,210 --> 00:13:10,929 S4: I think what I try and do is, you know, 225 00:13:10,970 --> 00:13:14,850 S4: whenever there's a hard conversation, first of all, I actually don't. 226 00:13:14,890 --> 00:13:18,890 S4: I say, let's like, let's talk about it. And I 227 00:13:18,929 --> 00:13:21,170 S4: guess the approach that I've taken for some time now 228 00:13:21,170 --> 00:13:24,090 S4: is I'll sit down and I'll say, this is my 229 00:13:24,090 --> 00:13:29,290 S4: perspectives and you might not like it or, you know, 230 00:13:29,330 --> 00:13:31,690 S4: you might not agree with it, but I want you 231 00:13:31,690 --> 00:13:35,929 S4: to understand why my perspective is this the why I 232 00:13:35,929 --> 00:13:38,930 S4: think this and why the decision is being taken. Because 233 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,560 S4: often people. And you forget because you're if you're a 234 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:46,000 S4: decision maker or you've started the business, you forget that 235 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:50,440 S4: they have information gaps in while you're doing certain things. 236 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:54,239 S4: So I think if you sit down and say, listen, 237 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,000 S4: I know you want twice your salary and I know 238 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:00,160 S4: that you want this, but just so you know, when 239 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,680 S4: we started the business, this is what how we set 240 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:04,880 S4: it up. This is why we set it up that way. 241 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:09,840 S4: It's based on these principles or this foundation. And if 242 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,560 S4: I did that, if I do something bespoke for you 243 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:14,800 S4: or unusual for you, then I have to tell the 244 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:18,000 S4: rest of the team. We have to justify that to everyone. 245 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:22,880 S4: So that's why this is my position. But you tell 246 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,720 S4: me what your position is so that I can understand it, 247 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,960 S4: and then find where the middle ground is. And I 248 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:34,480 S4: actually find that even if you don't get agreement, there's 249 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:38,180 S4: at least then common understanding. I understand where they're coming 250 00:14:38,180 --> 00:14:42,700 S4: from and they understand where I'm coming from, ultimately. Then, 251 00:14:43,100 --> 00:14:45,580 S4: you know, you can never blame somebody for making a 252 00:14:45,580 --> 00:14:48,060 S4: choice that's in their own best interests. Because at the 253 00:14:48,060 --> 00:14:50,860 S4: end of the day, when you're running a business, you've 254 00:14:50,860 --> 00:14:53,620 S4: got to make choices that are in the best interest 255 00:14:53,620 --> 00:14:57,620 S4: of the greater number of people that are there, not 256 00:14:57,660 --> 00:15:01,220 S4: the minorities. No matter how hard that feels, because otherwise 257 00:15:01,220 --> 00:15:05,900 S4: you would be running 30 different policies at any one time. 258 00:15:05,940 --> 00:15:08,700 S4: Like there has to be some standardization as you grow. 259 00:15:09,460 --> 00:15:13,380 S4: So I find that really difficult, but I've found it 260 00:15:13,780 --> 00:15:17,260 S4: the better approach for me, who, who's not the best 261 00:15:17,260 --> 00:15:20,540 S4: people manager, to actually just sit down and tell them 262 00:15:20,540 --> 00:15:23,180 S4: why I'm doing something in a particular way. 263 00:15:23,620 --> 00:15:27,900 S2: So then what about not being a good what, what 264 00:15:27,940 --> 00:15:30,220 S2: are you not good at? Because that is a very 265 00:15:30,540 --> 00:15:36,250 S2: valid way of handling conflict and challenging conversations. What are 266 00:15:36,250 --> 00:15:36,970 S2: you not good at? 267 00:15:36,970 --> 00:15:40,930 S4: Empathy. I don't like it. I find it really challenging. 268 00:15:41,450 --> 00:15:45,530 S4: I'm not good at the empathy. And I'm to like 269 00:15:45,570 --> 00:15:48,810 S4: the team tells me you're too abrupt, Nick. You just 270 00:15:48,810 --> 00:15:51,450 S4: say it. And then we're all like, still sort of 271 00:15:51,490 --> 00:15:55,050 S4: catching up with why certain things are happening. And you're 272 00:15:55,050 --> 00:15:58,090 S4: just like, if you've already moved on. And I also 273 00:15:58,090 --> 00:16:00,570 S4: explain that to people, I say, well, you're still thinking 274 00:16:00,570 --> 00:16:03,570 S4: about it. I've said it and I've moved on and 275 00:16:04,010 --> 00:16:06,210 S4: it's not, I don't do it out of malice. I 276 00:16:06,250 --> 00:16:09,330 S4: genuinely don't, and I say that to people. It's just 277 00:16:09,330 --> 00:16:12,250 S4: that once I've made a decision and said, it goes 278 00:16:12,250 --> 00:16:15,530 S4: back to my stubbornness, I've already like, I'm already down 279 00:16:15,530 --> 00:16:20,730 S4: the track and they're still digesting things. So it's just 280 00:16:20,730 --> 00:16:23,930 S4: a style thing. I definitely think it comes with age 281 00:16:23,970 --> 00:16:24,530 S4: as well. 282 00:16:24,810 --> 00:16:28,690 S2: Do you think you're judged differently for those skills than 283 00:16:28,690 --> 00:16:29,890 S2: a male boss would be judged? 284 00:16:29,930 --> 00:16:30,810 S4: Oh for sure. 285 00:16:31,810 --> 00:16:32,290 S2: Yeah. 286 00:16:32,330 --> 00:16:35,190 S4: But I just think that's the world. Like, I sort 287 00:16:35,230 --> 00:16:37,790 S4: of don't reflect much on that point because I just 288 00:16:37,790 --> 00:16:41,750 S4: think that that's the world we live in. Um, and I, 289 00:16:41,990 --> 00:16:45,030 S4: you know, you can't change that. It's just like, it's 290 00:16:45,030 --> 00:16:48,870 S4: easier to say she's a bitch or a hard ass. 291 00:16:49,230 --> 00:16:52,750 S4: And those terms wouldn't be applied to a male. And 292 00:16:52,750 --> 00:16:55,110 S4: I long, long ago got over that. 293 00:16:55,430 --> 00:16:58,630 S2: I am again, don't think I've ever had a guest 294 00:16:58,630 --> 00:17:01,550 S2: come on this podcast and say I'm crap at empathy. 295 00:17:01,830 --> 00:17:05,670 S2: So this is another first for me. Uh, and fantastic. 296 00:17:05,910 --> 00:17:08,389 S2: But I'm going to challenge you a bit more on it. 297 00:17:08,430 --> 00:17:13,710 S2: 12 people walked out of your old consulting firm to 298 00:17:13,750 --> 00:17:17,109 S2: follow you into a new consulting firm. So you're doing 299 00:17:17,109 --> 00:17:17,950 S2: something right. 300 00:17:18,230 --> 00:17:21,030 S4: Maybe they've got a piece of their brain missing, huh? 301 00:17:21,470 --> 00:17:23,870 S4: Or maybe they were up for an adventure. I don't know, 302 00:17:23,869 --> 00:17:26,470 S4: maybe a better, better place to ask them. 303 00:17:38,580 --> 00:17:44,580 S2: How good are you at receiving the feedback? As the 304 00:17:44,619 --> 00:17:47,179 S2: as the CEO, you've said you don't really like the 305 00:17:47,180 --> 00:17:51,700 S2: discomfort of the interactions with the team and people isn't great. 306 00:17:51,740 --> 00:17:54,300 S2: Your people. It's not the favorite part of it. Your, your, 307 00:17:54,340 --> 00:17:56,780 S2: your brain is more interested in the, the strategy and 308 00:17:56,780 --> 00:17:59,260 S2: the strategic and the, I guess the impact you're having 309 00:17:59,260 --> 00:18:04,139 S2: on on states and companies. But I'm interested in the reverse. 310 00:18:04,140 --> 00:18:07,580 S2: When your team comes to you and says, Nick, you know, 311 00:18:08,180 --> 00:18:09,980 S2: you need to do things differently or we don't think 312 00:18:09,980 --> 00:18:14,740 S2: this is working or we need to do something wildly different. 313 00:18:14,780 --> 00:18:17,260 S2: How do you how is a leader? Do you manage 314 00:18:17,540 --> 00:18:18,699 S2: that kind of feedback? 315 00:18:19,340 --> 00:18:25,300 S4: Oh, um, I think like everything's personal and nothing's personal. 316 00:18:25,340 --> 00:18:27,420 S4: But when it's first said to you, I just don't 317 00:18:27,420 --> 00:18:31,400 S4: think whatever the context is, I think that it always 318 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:35,280 S4: hurts if someone says, look, you know this didn't you 319 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:37,680 S4: said this, it didn't go down wrong or we don't 320 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:42,320 S4: think that we should you we should do this. I again, 321 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,920 S4: I think that you lose your touch if you if 322 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,320 S4: it doesn't get to you and for all the bravado 323 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:50,720 S4: that I that you might put on, I do think 324 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:54,240 S4: it gets to you. So probably this, you know, not 325 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:57,439 S4: dissimilar to everyone else, I get offended when I first 326 00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,879 S4: hear it, and I go away and stew on it, 327 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:05,520 S4: and then you dissect it element by element. And then, um, 328 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:07,720 S4: the first thing I would say is if you're ever 329 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,440 S4: running a business and you stop getting that feedback, then 330 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,040 S4: the business is probably going down the gurgler or you 331 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,919 S4: got the wrong people because you always need, and I'm 332 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,680 S4: always grateful for the person in the business that comes 333 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:23,240 S4: and says that because I think you sort of forget this, 334 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:27,240 S4: but to, to someone you're still the boss or, you know, 335 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:29,910 S4: you're still in charge. And so I think that that 336 00:19:29,910 --> 00:19:35,310 S4: takes courage. And I think I'm always grateful. Um, even 337 00:19:35,310 --> 00:19:38,790 S4: if I think no matter what I think of the feedback, 338 00:19:38,790 --> 00:19:42,230 S4: I'm always very grateful that someone had, you know, put 339 00:19:42,230 --> 00:19:45,830 S4: their hand up and said it. I generally, as I said, 340 00:19:45,830 --> 00:19:49,510 S4: go through the entire emotional, you know, bell curve and 341 00:19:49,510 --> 00:19:52,270 S4: get upset, but then I stew on it and I 342 00:19:52,310 --> 00:19:57,910 S4: will change my mind. Like I will, or I'll say, okay, well, 343 00:19:57,910 --> 00:19:59,909 S4: we can ask the rest of the team or we 344 00:19:59,910 --> 00:20:02,510 S4: can do these things or okay, if we're going to 345 00:20:02,510 --> 00:20:04,550 S4: do that, here's the trade off or here's what I'm 346 00:20:04,550 --> 00:20:07,989 S4: going to do differently. And so, you know, in the 347 00:20:07,990 --> 00:20:11,390 S4: first year of operation, I got some harsh feedback and 348 00:20:11,390 --> 00:20:14,629 S4: I basically broke it down into three categories. Here's the 349 00:20:14,630 --> 00:20:16,830 S4: things that you said that are right and that I'm 350 00:20:16,830 --> 00:20:19,710 S4: prepared to change. And if you see me falling back 351 00:20:19,710 --> 00:20:22,950 S4: into old habits, then you can call me out. Here 352 00:20:22,990 --> 00:20:25,350 S4: are the things that you said that are right, that, 353 00:20:25,390 --> 00:20:28,330 S4: you know, here's the context for them. So we might 354 00:20:28,330 --> 00:20:30,490 S4: be able to change some, but some we won't. And 355 00:20:30,490 --> 00:20:32,770 S4: here's the things that you said that are basically wrong 356 00:20:32,770 --> 00:20:36,250 S4: and this is why they're wrong. And I just think 357 00:20:36,250 --> 00:20:41,850 S4: being like always, at least being able to indicate that 358 00:20:41,850 --> 00:20:45,450 S4: no matter which one of those three sort of silos 359 00:20:45,450 --> 00:20:50,090 S4: they fit into, that you've heard what's been said that matters. 360 00:20:50,090 --> 00:20:53,930 S4: It doesn't hurt less because you know, no one. But 361 00:20:54,130 --> 00:20:56,530 S4: I just think you have to be able to break 362 00:20:56,530 --> 00:20:57,930 S4: it down and respond. 363 00:20:58,050 --> 00:21:00,210 S2: But the reason I asked that question was you said 364 00:21:00,210 --> 00:21:02,650 S2: at the outset, you're really stubborn. So I was kind 365 00:21:02,650 --> 00:21:05,530 S2: of I was kind of wondering how that once, if 366 00:21:05,570 --> 00:21:08,370 S2: you're stubborn and you get feedback you don't like, how 367 00:21:08,369 --> 00:21:12,530 S2: do you. That's pretty impressive that you somehow do move 368 00:21:12,570 --> 00:21:16,810 S2: past the stubborn reaction rather than just remain stubborn. 369 00:21:17,170 --> 00:21:21,330 S4: Well, I think the reason is innately commercial. Um, a 370 00:21:21,330 --> 00:21:25,090 S4: business isn't a business without a team of people. So 371 00:21:25,290 --> 00:21:27,840 S4: if you want to have everything your own way, then 372 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:28,880 S4: be a sole trader. 373 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:30,160 S2: Yeah. 374 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,080 S4: You know, my job is to keep everybody happy because 375 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:37,320 S4: that makes that makes the business hum. So there has 376 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,280 S4: to be some. There always is room for movement. And 377 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,400 S4: it's about my commitment to the business rather than commitment 378 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,960 S4: to one single idea or one single view. So yeah, 379 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,560 S4: don't let it think it makes me any less stubborn. 380 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:53,760 S4: It's just my stubbornness channeled. 381 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:57,080 S2: In a direction. Alright, well, let's, let's I kind of 382 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,760 S2: glossed over the sorts of things that you like thinking 383 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,320 S2: about and you like doing. So, um, maybe we should 384 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,600 S2: talk a little bit about when you're not dealing with 385 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,920 S2: people and you are building a company, what are the 386 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,120 S2: sorts of issues and things that you're good at and 387 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:11,760 S2: you like doing? Oh. 388 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:16,760 S4: Like the most satisfying thing about building about a business, 389 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,080 S4: no matter what you're doing, I think when a client 390 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,560 S4: says that it made them happy and satisfied, there is 391 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:28,420 S4: nothing better There is nothing better. The other thing that 392 00:22:28,420 --> 00:22:31,380 S4: actually gives me a real buzz is when the team 393 00:22:31,380 --> 00:22:35,020 S4: says that they're happy coming to work. There is nothing better, 394 00:22:35,780 --> 00:22:38,100 S4: because I think it says to you that there's something 395 00:22:38,100 --> 00:22:41,980 S4: going right, like on both sides of that, that coin 396 00:22:42,180 --> 00:22:45,340 S4: that makes me happy. They're the things that make me happy. 397 00:22:45,780 --> 00:22:47,980 S2: And what are you seeing at the moment in business? 398 00:22:48,100 --> 00:22:50,380 S2: Are things feeling pretty tough for you at the moment? 399 00:22:50,740 --> 00:22:53,500 S4: Um, well I just think it's at the top a 400 00:22:53,540 --> 00:22:59,500 S4: tough environment. And so, you know we're in infrastructure advisory 401 00:23:00,660 --> 00:23:05,980 S4: so delivery is tough. Productivity harmed. The economic climate is 402 00:23:05,980 --> 00:23:10,500 S4: getting tougher. We do a bit of work in like 403 00:23:11,180 --> 00:23:14,860 S4: with summers on large assets and working out how they 404 00:23:14,859 --> 00:23:20,379 S4: can generate more revenue. Different ways of pricing and funding it, 405 00:23:20,619 --> 00:23:24,730 S4: like the demands that that type of service is growing, 406 00:23:24,770 --> 00:23:30,690 S4: which actually says the economy is getting tighter. Um, it's 407 00:23:31,050 --> 00:23:36,010 S4: the demand for hard infrastructure like transport. And, you know, 408 00:23:36,050 --> 00:23:39,250 S4: in Sydney, the metro, I say is made public transport 409 00:23:39,250 --> 00:23:42,609 S4: sexy again. So I think that that like all of 410 00:23:42,609 --> 00:23:44,890 S4: a sudden people have looked at projects like the Metro 411 00:23:44,890 --> 00:23:48,210 S4: and said, oh, that, you know, it's amazing. Everything from 412 00:23:48,210 --> 00:23:51,730 S4: the stations to the actual rolling stock is amazing. We 413 00:23:51,730 --> 00:23:55,129 S4: want one of those. So everyone wants a metro. But 414 00:23:55,130 --> 00:23:58,450 S4: the reality is we're a small population and it's hard 415 00:23:58,450 --> 00:24:01,530 S4: to deliver world class infrastructure when you don't have as 416 00:24:01,530 --> 00:24:04,730 S4: many people paying for it. I think that's the hard 417 00:24:04,730 --> 00:24:06,129 S4: reality out there. 418 00:24:06,330 --> 00:24:08,290 S2: And how are you thinking about AI? 419 00:24:09,130 --> 00:24:13,530 S4: Ah, that's a good question. Um, we're actually just starting 420 00:24:13,530 --> 00:24:15,929 S4: to go through the process as a business and looking 421 00:24:15,930 --> 00:24:19,130 S4: and testing some business cases insofar as how you can 422 00:24:19,130 --> 00:24:23,320 S4: use AI. I've dabble with it. You know, I think 423 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,159 S4: it's great for things like, you know, write me a 424 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:31,680 S4: document that says these things. Uh, again, sometimes when you 425 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,200 S4: ask it a question and you've lived, lived it, it 426 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,560 S4: spits you out an incorrect answer. So I guess what 427 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:43,080 S4: I'm worried about from an AI perspective is accuracy. That 428 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,320 S4: doesn't mean it won't get better. And that doesn't mean 429 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:49,400 S4: that things that don't rely on history as such, that 430 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:55,160 S4: it'll be absolutely amazing and life changing. I do agree with. Um, 431 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,200 S4: and hence why we're starting to look at, well, what, 432 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:02,680 S4: what can you use it for? Where it uses the tools. 433 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,360 S4: And I've got some amazingly brilliant people in the business 434 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,120 S4: that are working on use cases for it at the moment. 435 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,120 S4: I do think it's going to change our world. But 436 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,160 S4: I always say there's always the same amount of money 437 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,560 S4: out there in the world. It just changing hands. So 438 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,419 S4: I think it will change the types of jobs, not 439 00:25:20,420 --> 00:25:23,020 S4: their job. Wipe out like somebody thinks. 440 00:25:23,540 --> 00:25:26,899 S2: Well, that's good news. Thank you for that uplifting answer. 441 00:25:27,220 --> 00:25:29,660 S2: My final question for you today, and thank you. This 442 00:25:29,660 --> 00:25:31,820 S2: has been amazing to talk to you about all these issues, 443 00:25:31,820 --> 00:25:35,580 S2: but what's the best piece of feedback you've received in 444 00:25:35,580 --> 00:25:36,260 S2: your career? 445 00:25:36,340 --> 00:25:36,740 S1: Um. 446 00:25:37,460 --> 00:25:41,820 S4: Anna once said to me, use your common sense. If 447 00:25:41,859 --> 00:25:44,060 S4: you had to explain to your Nana why you were 448 00:25:44,060 --> 00:25:46,859 S4: going to do something, do you think she would understand 449 00:25:46,859 --> 00:25:52,860 S4: your answer? Uh, and I think that that's a, a really, 450 00:25:52,859 --> 00:25:57,500 S4: really good piece of advice to live by is, and 451 00:25:57,500 --> 00:26:00,940 S4: I think common sense is not all that common. The 452 00:26:00,940 --> 00:26:04,580 S4: other thing that I would say is, and this is 453 00:26:04,580 --> 00:26:09,659 S4: probably the hardest, is don't worry about being in the spotlight. 454 00:26:09,660 --> 00:26:13,020 S4: Just do a really good job because you will get noticed. 455 00:26:13,020 --> 00:26:17,260 S4: And there are some again, going to some members of 456 00:26:17,420 --> 00:26:24,050 S4: our Tame, um, who are super, super brilliant individual economists 457 00:26:24,050 --> 00:26:28,330 S4: and engineers and they do amazing work and they always 458 00:26:28,330 --> 00:26:31,090 S4: get noticed by the client. And I just think that 459 00:26:31,090 --> 00:26:34,129 S4: that's amazing that that's sort of out there that happens. 460 00:26:34,130 --> 00:26:36,050 S4: I think it was said to me once is it's 461 00:26:36,050 --> 00:26:38,210 S4: what you do in the darkness that puts you in 462 00:26:38,210 --> 00:26:41,890 S4: the spotlight. So just stay in the dark doing what 463 00:26:41,890 --> 00:26:45,330 S4: you're doing. Um, that's all that's all that matters. But yeah, 464 00:26:45,369 --> 00:26:48,450 S4: I live by that. If I'm explaining this to my nana, 465 00:26:48,930 --> 00:26:51,650 S4: how would I explain it to her as common sense? 466 00:26:51,970 --> 00:26:54,770 S4: I think that good piece of advice to live by. 467 00:26:55,130 --> 00:26:58,570 S2: Nicole, thank you so much. Um, fantastic to talk to you. 468 00:26:58,930 --> 00:27:02,090 S2: I did actually interview your old boss and a number 469 00:27:02,090 --> 00:27:03,850 S2: of years ago, and it was, um, one of my 470 00:27:03,850 --> 00:27:06,609 S2: favorite interviews of all time, just as she was leaving 471 00:27:06,890 --> 00:27:11,890 S2: or actually dealing with the, the Covid crisis as head 472 00:27:11,890 --> 00:27:14,970 S2: of the Australian Banking Association. But I can see why 473 00:27:14,970 --> 00:27:19,030 S2: you two made such a formidable team. And, um, thank 474 00:27:19,030 --> 00:27:22,230 S2: you for all your support for for both, uh, by 475 00:27:22,270 --> 00:27:24,070 S2: being here today, but also behind the scenes. And it's 476 00:27:24,070 --> 00:27:25,830 S2: great to talk to you. Great to chat to you. 477 00:27:25,830 --> 00:27:26,670 S4: Thank Palin. 478 00:27:40,109 --> 00:27:42,910 S1: This week, Helen, we've had someone write in who has 479 00:27:42,910 --> 00:27:45,830 S1: to fire someone for the first time. They said that 480 00:27:45,830 --> 00:27:49,750 S1: they've ticked all the boxes in terms of documentation. They've 481 00:27:49,750 --> 00:27:55,550 S1: coordinated with HR, but they're understandably dreading having this conversation. 482 00:27:56,150 --> 00:27:58,350 S1: They want to know if you have any advice or 483 00:27:58,350 --> 00:28:01,270 S1: tips about how to do it, and I've added on 484 00:28:01,670 --> 00:28:04,990 S1: any tips in particular about how not to seem nervous 485 00:28:05,190 --> 00:28:06,750 S1: when you're having the conversation. 486 00:28:06,790 --> 00:28:10,910 S2: This is just awful, and I don't think anyone really 487 00:28:10,910 --> 00:28:14,750 S2: gets good at it because it is a dreadful feeling 488 00:28:14,790 --> 00:28:17,900 S2: leading into it and it's a dreadful feeling afterwards. So 489 00:28:17,900 --> 00:28:20,340 S2: I just want to acknowledge that. But okay, it has 490 00:28:20,340 --> 00:28:23,820 S2: to be done. And the longer you spend time in leadership, 491 00:28:24,180 --> 00:28:27,540 S2: the more likely it it needs to be done. I'd 492 00:28:27,540 --> 00:28:30,420 S2: also say if someone is not right in the job 493 00:28:30,420 --> 00:28:35,420 S2: you are doing, your organization and yourself and probably them 494 00:28:35,460 --> 00:28:38,219 S2: a favor as well. So I'm going to add one 495 00:28:38,220 --> 00:28:40,300 S2: more thing before I answer this question. There's I'm really 496 00:28:40,300 --> 00:28:43,380 S2: bad at this. So if anyone wants to completely disregard 497 00:28:43,380 --> 00:28:47,260 S2: my advice, I'd understand. I find I find these conversations 498 00:28:47,260 --> 00:28:50,220 S2: really hard and I'm terrible at them, but I've done 499 00:28:50,220 --> 00:28:52,780 S2: enough interviews to know what best practice looks like. Going 500 00:28:52,780 --> 00:28:55,340 S2: with a plan. Know exactly what you want to say. 501 00:28:55,460 --> 00:29:00,660 S2: If you're nervous, practice it. Talk to your partner or 502 00:29:00,820 --> 00:29:05,860 S2: the domestic animal at your house and just get familiar 503 00:29:05,860 --> 00:29:09,459 S2: with the language. I'm familiar with hearing your voice. Use 504 00:29:09,460 --> 00:29:14,320 S2: the words. Deliver the news early. Uh, use words like, 505 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,360 S2: we're going to have a difficult conversation. Thank you for 506 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:21,120 S2: joining me. This is a difficult conversation. Usually the circumstances 507 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,200 S2: are pretty obvious to the person on the other side 508 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,840 S2: of the screen or the desk. Have someone present. That's 509 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,520 S2: a question mark for me. Um, sometimes HR can be 510 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,120 S2: very helpful. Sometimes it's absolutely necessary and non-negotiable depending on 511 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:39,200 S2: the process of your organization. But it's not always necessary 512 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,120 S2: and it can exacerbate the situation depending on your relationship 513 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,160 S2: with the individual. For example, if it's an old school 514 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,400 S2: friend who's worked together with you in the business for 515 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,160 S2: a long time, it might, you know, having an HR person, 516 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,560 S2: there might not be the right thing to do. Be 517 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:59,200 S2: concise and factual. Be clear and direct. Give the person, uh, 518 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,440 S2: some agency. Ask them what they'd like to do next. 519 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,320 S2: Ask them if there's anything you can they can do 520 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:10,720 S2: to help. Talk about referees and references. Uh, talk about 521 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,910 S2: the afternoon off or not, as the case might be. 522 00:30:14,390 --> 00:30:18,310 S2: Talk about the comms strategy. Uh, so that there's some 523 00:30:18,350 --> 00:30:23,070 S2: understanding what the next steps are immediately. Keep it short. 524 00:30:23,110 --> 00:30:26,870 S2: There isn't a lot to be gained by going over 525 00:30:26,910 --> 00:30:32,070 S2: what's happened or why or hearing explanations. Be compassionate insofar 526 00:30:32,070 --> 00:30:36,110 S2: as you can. I do know circumstances where people have 527 00:30:36,430 --> 00:30:39,990 S2: fired or moved people out of jobs when it's completely 528 00:30:39,990 --> 00:30:43,670 S2: beyond their control, and those relationships have remained intact. It 529 00:30:43,670 --> 00:30:47,310 S2: is possible to do that, but I do. I do 530 00:30:47,470 --> 00:30:52,590 S2: lean on the need to be factual, compassionate, direct and 531 00:30:52,590 --> 00:30:54,550 S2: concise most times. 532 00:30:54,590 --> 00:30:57,670 S1: Have you found Helen that they usually know it's coming? 533 00:30:57,870 --> 00:31:01,709 S2: Yeah, mostly in my in my experience. Um, you very 534 00:31:01,710 --> 00:31:07,430 S2: rarely are letting an over performer leave. You are in 535 00:31:07,430 --> 00:31:12,610 S2: almost all circumstances. Letting underperformers go. And that underperformance has 536 00:31:12,610 --> 00:31:17,290 S2: been noted either in subtle or direct ways over time. 537 00:31:18,690 --> 00:31:23,210 S2: These days there are performance management processes. There are letters 538 00:31:23,210 --> 00:31:26,850 S2: of ways to work. There are all sorts of methods 539 00:31:26,850 --> 00:31:32,370 S2: to track it and which is necessary. So absolutely, the 540 00:31:32,370 --> 00:31:36,370 S2: employee is usually aware. They're usually aware that they're unhappy 541 00:31:36,370 --> 00:31:39,890 S2: in the job too. So that is often something to remember. 542 00:31:39,930 --> 00:31:42,450 S2: They're not enjoying the work. They're not at their best. 543 00:31:43,010 --> 00:31:45,690 S2: And they will be served by moving into a culture 544 00:31:45,690 --> 00:31:49,410 S2: or a team where they are a better fit. I 545 00:31:49,410 --> 00:31:53,730 S2: think as a leader, it is worth noting that not 546 00:31:53,730 --> 00:31:58,010 S2: everyone is suited to your organisation or the team. And 547 00:31:58,010 --> 00:32:00,450 S2: that does not mean that that person is not a 548 00:32:00,450 --> 00:32:04,410 S2: valuable employee to another organisation, or can't be a valuable 549 00:32:04,410 --> 00:32:08,610 S2: employee to another organisation, and thrive in a completely different circumstance. 550 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:13,840 S2: but I. I know that it is a very tough 551 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:18,800 S2: day for both the organization, the team, the leader, and, 552 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:20,600 S2: of course, the person who you're letting go. 553 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,840 S1: And in terms of next steps after the conversation, how 554 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,960 S1: would you approach breaking it to the broader team? Would 555 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,160 S1: you take the lead from the person you've just fired 556 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,000 S1: or do you have a process? Odessa. 557 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:38,479 S2: I think there are small, medium and large versions of this. 558 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,280 S2: If you're in a large organization, these these things are 559 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,800 S2: industrialized where if you are letting 200 people go on Friday, 560 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:48,880 S2: you know, there's not a lot of room to move. 561 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:51,280 S2: There is a system and a process, and there's a 562 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,160 S2: box and a key and a laptop and a phone. 563 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,280 S2: All those things are done, you know, in a in 564 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:02,120 S2: a very clinical way. If you're a small team, then absolutely. 565 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,800 S2: It's such a culture issue. When you let a member 566 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,380 S2: of a small team go. Your team will be sympathetic 567 00:33:09,380 --> 00:33:11,940 S2: even if they think that person was underperforming and was 568 00:33:11,940 --> 00:33:14,780 S2: driving them nuts, they will still be sympathetic, particularly in 569 00:33:14,780 --> 00:33:17,260 S2: an all female team and in a medium sized team, 570 00:33:17,260 --> 00:33:20,219 S2: which is what we are. A bit of both. You know, 571 00:33:20,260 --> 00:33:23,340 S2: there's a there's a bit of a system that's required. Uh, 572 00:33:23,500 --> 00:33:26,380 S2: and there's, you know, there is an HR rule book 573 00:33:26,580 --> 00:33:30,900 S2: and you need to be compliant. But at the same time, 574 00:33:30,900 --> 00:33:33,500 S2: there are no two employees that are the same. So 575 00:33:33,780 --> 00:33:39,820 S2: tailoring how you speak to the individual is important. Um, 576 00:33:39,860 --> 00:33:41,460 S2: I often talk about running a team. It's a bit 577 00:33:41,460 --> 00:33:45,140 S2: like running a football team. Every player is different. And 578 00:33:45,380 --> 00:33:49,500 S2: speaking to that player as an individual is important. And 579 00:33:49,500 --> 00:33:53,420 S2: I think in the case of what next? Absolutely understand 580 00:33:53,420 --> 00:33:55,780 S2: what the drivers are. You know, whether they're going to 581 00:33:55,780 --> 00:34:01,820 S2: feel ashamed or emotional or angry. And working to that 582 00:34:01,820 --> 00:34:05,340 S2: and trying to mitigate is important. So it could mean, uh, 583 00:34:05,380 --> 00:34:08,370 S2: letting them sit for a couple of days. It could, uh, 584 00:34:08,370 --> 00:34:12,250 S2: it could mean seeing whether you've given them prior warning 585 00:34:12,250 --> 00:34:15,089 S2: that the role will be terminated or the contract's coming 586 00:34:15,090 --> 00:34:16,569 S2: to an end. So they've got an opportunity to go 587 00:34:16,570 --> 00:34:20,370 S2: and find another job before the role's terminated. Um, if 588 00:34:20,370 --> 00:34:24,089 S2: it's a performance management situation, you know, it might be 589 00:34:24,090 --> 00:34:29,129 S2: more clinical if something's gone wrong, wrong, uh, and you 590 00:34:29,130 --> 00:34:31,810 S2: have no choice but to let them go, the situation 591 00:34:31,810 --> 00:34:35,250 S2: might be more, um, clinical and a little bit more. 592 00:34:35,410 --> 00:34:38,130 S2: There might be more pain on both sides. But I 593 00:34:38,130 --> 00:34:42,090 S2: do think having a frank discussion about what next. Before 594 00:34:42,090 --> 00:34:44,450 S2: you leave the room or the discussion is very important. 595 00:34:44,450 --> 00:34:46,609 S2: So you do know what the next steps are. Okay, 596 00:34:46,610 --> 00:34:50,690 S2: so that's my experience as a leader. Can you I 597 00:34:50,690 --> 00:34:53,210 S2: know you've done the research. What's the actual best practice? 598 00:34:54,010 --> 00:34:57,170 S1: Actual best practice that I found in a Harvard Business 599 00:34:57,170 --> 00:35:02,170 S1: Review article was firstly, not to drag your feet. Don't 600 00:35:02,170 --> 00:35:08,150 S1: delay firing someone. lead upfront. Secondly, make HR your ally. 601 00:35:08,350 --> 00:35:12,350 S1: Check your plans with HR before scheduling the conversation. Make 602 00:35:12,390 --> 00:35:16,590 S1: sure everything's set to go. Keep it short. And then 603 00:35:16,590 --> 00:35:20,149 S1: fourthly and importantly, stay in the room. Be compassionate. Don't 604 00:35:20,150 --> 00:35:23,469 S1: run away. As soon as the conversations had offered to 605 00:35:23,469 --> 00:35:26,790 S1: be helpful, this could come in the form of offering 606 00:35:26,830 --> 00:35:30,630 S1: to write a reference, giving them options, giving them choices, 607 00:35:30,630 --> 00:35:33,390 S1: and then have a plan for how you will talk 608 00:35:33,390 --> 00:35:38,070 S1: to your team afterwards and bring up their dismissal. Very good. 609 00:35:38,430 --> 00:35:38,910 S1: Thank you. 610 00:35:42,989 --> 00:35:45,590 S2: This podcast was recorded on the lands of the Gadigal 611 00:35:45,590 --> 00:35:49,190 S2: people of the Aurora nation. It was produced by Odessa Blain, 612 00:35:49,230 --> 00:35:51,750 S2: Susan Warby and led by Paddy Andrews.