Speaker 1: We had a chat with our next guest, Jordana, the
Speaker 1: communications and body language expert, a couple of weeks ago,
Speaker 1: and a lot of people gave us some good feedback
Speaker 1: on that. Seems that everybody's really interested in the secrets
Speaker 1: that we give away when we have a look at
Speaker 1: somebody else's body language or our own body language and
Speaker 1: don't realize we're doing it. So this week, let's talk
Speaker 1: about chronic overflapping, which Jordana, good morning to you. Has
Speaker 1: a lot to do with people and the way they
Speaker 1: move their arms and they gesticulate, which I think I'm
Speaker 1: a little bit of a gesticulator too. It's like I'm
Speaker 1: playing sort of you know, an air organ or something
Speaker 1: like that.
Speaker 2: So you're in one of the two most popular categories.
Speaker 2: We tend to be overflapped or we tend to be underflappers.
Speaker 2: The problem with overflapping is that we have a lot
Speaker 2: of uninternal movement when we're speaking, which means a lot
Speaker 2: of the focus of our message. People are distracted by
Speaker 2: seeing that unintentional movement with our hands.
Speaker 3: Like I liken it to fill the words when we're talking.
Speaker 2: So if we're trying to rush through because we feel
Speaker 2: like all the eyes are on us.
Speaker 3: Will say like, but I don't.
Speaker 2: Mean it's just because we really want to get our
Speaker 2: message across. But we feel pressure so fast and we're
Speaker 2: not thinking. And it's the same thing when we're using
Speaker 2: our hands and we're flucking them around.
Speaker 3: It's very distracting.
Speaker 1: I find I do this when I'm searching for words.
Speaker 1: When I know exactly where I'm going with my stream
Speaker 1: of consciousness, I don't do it as much.
Speaker 2: Oh well, that's so interesting because there was actually research
Speaker 2: by a professor of psychology at the University of Chicago.
Speaker 3: Her name is Susan.
Speaker 2: Golds and Meadow, and she found it gesturing while we're
Speaker 2: speaking actually does light in the cognode, and when we're young,
Speaker 2: we actually naturally integrate gesture and speech, and our hands
Speaker 2: really do emphasize, sometimes contradict our spoken words, but they
Speaker 2: also do play a big role in forming our ideas.
Speaker 2: So I think you're flapping when you're trying to come
Speaker 2: up with your ideas and your words is actually part
Speaker 2: of the physical body trying to come in to actually
Speaker 2: get you to the point where you want.
Speaker 1: To go, Right, I'm flapping while extrapolating.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you are doing so many unusual things at once.
Speaker 2: You're flapping. Oh, you're trying to get to the message.
Speaker 2: And then I wonder, when you get to the message,
Speaker 2: do you stop flapping?
Speaker 1: Definitely? I put my hands away and leave them by
Speaker 1: my side. I wonder if it's possible to talk with
Speaker 1: holding your hands on the side, and I'm doing this
Speaker 1: while I'm saying this right now, whether or not it
Speaker 1: changes your thought process, and it hasn't seemed to do that.
Speaker 1: In fact, by taking out the flapping here, I find
Speaker 1: that I'm now more focused on the conversation.
Speaker 2: You are more focused on the conversation. But as the
Speaker 2: person on the other side, your tonality has.
Speaker 3: Dropped, ah, and you've gone more.
Speaker 2: Monotone in the way that you actually shared that message.
Speaker 2: So our expression is very natural to us. We normally
Speaker 2: use our hands, so to take them away and not
Speaker 2: have could audibly hear the change in your pitch when
Speaker 2: you did that.
Speaker 3: And have you heard of Vanessa van Edwards? No?
Speaker 1: I haven't.
Speaker 4: Oh.
Speaker 2: So she's a specialist in science based people skills and
Speaker 2: she analyzed more than one thousand hours of TEDx talks
Speaker 2: or ted took and she wanted to work out what th.
Speaker 3: Viral and others don't.
Speaker 2: And so her team studied all of these variables and
Speaker 2: the one differentiator they found was gestures.
Speaker 3: So they found that from this particular.
Speaker 2: Period of time, the most viewed TED talks had an
Speaker 2: average of four hundred and sixty five gestures in eighteen minutes,
Speaker 2: and the least viewed ones had an average of two
Speaker 2: hundred and seventy two gestures. So we really they help
Speaker 2: us bring our expression to life, They help us find
Speaker 2: our words, and it also helps our message land in
Speaker 2: a much more impactful way because we trust gestures.
Speaker 1: Let me hit you with this scenario. What about if
Speaker 1: someone's really deceptive and they were using their hands as
Speaker 1: a smoke screen to deceive you from the words they're saying.
Speaker 2: They would be steps ahead because normally we would use
Speaker 2: our hands less if we're trying to be deceptive. So
Speaker 2: if you've got someone who understands and then would use
Speaker 2: their hands, I would.
Speaker 3: Say that it would be quite forced movement.
Speaker 2: You wouldn't have that natural flare and that natural expression
Speaker 2: when we're really coming from our heart and from a
Speaker 2: place of passion.
Speaker 1: When you see politicians usually making a speech, they do
Speaker 1: over emphasize with their hands, and I often feel that
Speaker 1: that is a little bit contrived.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they do quite intentional stuff, so like they'll do
Speaker 2: future framing. So future framing is where you get your
Speaker 2: hand in a certain movement and you move it forward
Speaker 2: when you say a certain policy or you say a
Speaker 2: certain idea, and so you're literally taking your audience on
Speaker 2: a journey with you, and your hand gesture is the vision.
Speaker 2: So it's like, we're going to do this great thing,
Speaker 2: We're going to spend this amount of money, and so
Speaker 2: future framing is a technique that is actually used a
Speaker 2: lot with politicians when they're taking you with them, you know, visually, on.
Speaker 3: The journey as well.
Speaker 2: Because we use our hands as anchors, it's another way
Speaker 2: to capture our sensory elements. And the more of our
Speaker 2: you know, sensory elements we engage, the more engage we are.
Speaker 1: How about if someone's being like a magician, your words
Speaker 1: are saying one thing, but your hands are actually taking
Speaker 1: your conversation away from the words, a bit like magic yet.
Speaker 3: One hundred percent or vice versa.
Speaker 2: In magic, we're either using our words and focusing on
Speaker 2: the story, the mind elements.
Speaker 3: The linguistics.
Speaker 2: We're distracting from what we're doing with our hands, or
Speaker 2: we're using our hands in a certain way that creates
Speaker 2: an illusion so that you're focusing on the hands and
Speaker 2: you can't see what's happening in other areas. But the
Speaker 2: code in magic is you can't tell anyone how a
Speaker 2: magic stick is done unless they want to be a
Speaker 2: magician themselves. So I think I've said enough unless you
Speaker 2: want to change your career.
Speaker 1: I want to just throw in a name here, because
Speaker 1: I know you like it when I name drop. I
Speaker 1: did an interview with David Copperfield and he stood in
Speaker 1: the corner dressed completely in black, and I found out
Speaker 1: afterwards it's because he's quite small in stature, and he
Speaker 1: doesn't want people to realize how small he is in
Speaker 1: stature because he wants to come across with the illusion
Speaker 1: of being grand. Wow.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. I had no idea that he was small,
Speaker 3: because I've seen him in real life. He was definitely
Speaker 3: taller than me.
Speaker 1: Yes see, he gives you that illusion, and that's why
Speaker 1: I did the interview with him in the dark in
Speaker 1: the corner.
Speaker 3: I found out afterwards, were you wearing neon?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: Wish I had wish I had a torch.
Speaker 3: Did you find you did you have a flashlight? How
Speaker 3: did you guide your way through?
Speaker 1: They just pointed me to a couple of darty eyes
Speaker 1: in the corner.
Speaker 3: And then you're looking at your interview notes. Did were
Speaker 3: you're using your iPhone to it?
Speaker 1: No? No, this was before iPhone.
Speaker 3: Oh okay, I'll go on the illusion. That was such
Speaker 3: a good picture that I had in my mind as well.
Speaker 1: I can go with that if you want.
Speaker 3: With David Copperfield. Sounds like a really good opening for
Speaker 3: a show.
Speaker 1: I think, so to hang on there a second, join Dana.
Speaker 1: We're talking the body language. And I just got a
Speaker 1: text too that came in from Belinda saying why do
Speaker 1: people say yes but then shake their head no? And
Speaker 1: that's really quite difficult to do too, to say yes,
Speaker 1: have a go to to say yes but then shake
Speaker 1: their head no. Yes, No, I've confused my head even
Speaker 1: by trying to do that one three one eight seven
Speaker 1: three or on the text zero four six zero eight
Speaker 1: seven three eight seven three if you've got any body
Speaker 1: language questions. More with Jordana after this. Jeff on the text,
Speaker 1: I'm a martial artist. If I'm talking to someone that's
Speaker 1: throwing their arms around while talking. I see this as
Speaker 1: threatening behavior and I will grab their arm and stop it.
Speaker 1: So jor Dana's on the phone, and she is a
Speaker 1: communications and body language expert. How do you what should
Speaker 1: you do? If you want people then if they're looking
Speaker 1: at the way you move your arms around, for example,
Speaker 1: but you're trying to be sincere, and you want them
Speaker 1: to realize that you're being sincere and maybe even non threatening,
Speaker 1: what would you do?
Speaker 2: Open palms is trust, open palms is honesty. So we
Speaker 2: want to look at the opposite of what we would
Speaker 2: naturally do. So, if you've been accused of something and
Speaker 2: genuinely it wasn't you, what do you naturally do with
Speaker 2: your hands?
Speaker 3: You go, welln't me? And what do you what do
Speaker 3: you do with your hands?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you hold them up as if you're under arrest
Speaker 1: one hundred percent? Well you put them forward? Yeah, you
Speaker 1: put them forward as if to say, look, there's nothing here,
Speaker 1: there's nothing hidden.
Speaker 4: Exactly, And that goes back centuries.
Speaker 2: It's a primal cue, you know, associated with sincerity and
Speaker 2: transperity and safety in connection.
Speaker 4: And we literally show we're not hiding anything.
Speaker 2: So when we don't use our hands or we hide
Speaker 2: them underneath the table, very unnatural. In fact, we tend
Speaker 2: to trust people less if we actually can't see their hands,
Speaker 2: because there's part of their body that we don't.
Speaker 3: Know what's happening.
Speaker 2: And you know, back in the caveman eras, we would
Speaker 2: see if we would trust someone by what they were
Speaker 2: holding in their hands, are you holding a weapon?
Speaker 3: Or are your palms open? And now?
Speaker 4: Can I trust you instantly?
Speaker 1: What about if someone is lying to you, or someone's deceptive,
Speaker 1: if someone's a narcissist, what do they do when they're
Speaker 1: trying to fool you?
Speaker 3: Good question?
Speaker 2: I would say anything anytime we can't see the hands
Speaker 2: or they're static, that would be a distraction from how
Speaker 2: would I normally carry myself.
Speaker 1: What about if somebody talks to and they keep their
Speaker 1: hands in their pockets because I've always thought that's just
Speaker 1: somebody who's socially uncomfortable. Could there be another meaning to that?
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's literally just because it is such a comfortable
Speaker 2: position that they've done for years and years and years.
Speaker 2: But we always need to think, what is this done
Speaker 2: that we're in, what is this interaction?
Speaker 4: And what message am I trying to convey right now?
Speaker 3: Because we tend to see the world. In fact, we
Speaker 3: do see the world through our own lens.
Speaker 2: So what happens is I will judge your body language
Speaker 2: and how you carry yourself based on how I would
Speaker 2: do that gesture myself. So if I'm in a meeting
Speaker 2: with you and you're sitting with your hands and your
Speaker 2: fingers are interlocked at the table, you might be really calm,
Speaker 2: or you might be you know, considering something, or you
Speaker 2: might you know, be quite angry. I will look at
Speaker 2: you and go, how would I be feeling if I
Speaker 2: use my hands like that right now?
Speaker 3: And then I will.
Speaker 2: Project my own emotions and my own judgment of how
Speaker 2: I would use that gesture onto you. So we need
Speaker 2: to be open and neutral at all times because otherwise
Speaker 2: there's a real risk of miscommunication and misunderstanding, even if
Speaker 2: it's not intentional. So coming back to the guys with
Speaker 2: the hands in the pockets, like, yeah, as I said,
Speaker 2: it might be a really calm and casual position, but
Speaker 2: if someone's looking at us, it's.
Speaker 4: It's a very fast judgment to go, oh they're.
Speaker 3: Uncomfortable, they're awkward.
Speaker 4: Oh they don't feel you know, in their power in
Speaker 4: this moment.
Speaker 2: Remember, in our last chat, I've got you to visualize.
Speaker 1: Glitter chess, yes, Mariah Kerry.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, it's getting us into a confident pose.
Speaker 3: Anything that stops us from punching.
Speaker 2: Down and closing ourselves off instantly opens us up. Confidence
Speaker 2: equals power, not just for ourselves, but also in terms
Speaker 2: of the energy that we're actually giving off.
Speaker 3: Wow. I often get.
Speaker 4: Asked about hands behind our back. We want to avoid
Speaker 4: that as well.
Speaker 1: Why is that Because.
Speaker 2: It's a more open posture than having them closed in
Speaker 2: front of us, But it is also a signal for
Speaker 2: a level of discomfort or I'm hiding something from you.
Speaker 2: Because if your hands are hidden, so again, we can't
Speaker 2: see that, and there is a level of distrust when
Speaker 2: we can't see your hands, even though it does obviously
Speaker 2: help your chest be open and neutral.
Speaker 3: And we don't want a point. We hate pointers.
Speaker 4: We don't want a point that comes across as aggressive.
Speaker 1: Well, that's what I always say. Sometimes the hands can't
Speaker 1: see what the eyes are saying.
Speaker 4: I love your.
Speaker 3: Little I'm going to call them pearls of wisdom.
Speaker 1: Ye, I just make that up. I tell you. I
Speaker 1: just came to be like that, you know, And I
Speaker 1: wasn't even moving my hands to come to that pearler.
Speaker 3: You know, you've got such a convincing tone when you
Speaker 3: say that. Amazing gems.
Speaker 1: Don't forget that great philosopher that I have studied, George
Speaker 1: Costanza from Seinfeld, when he said believe the lie.
Speaker 3: He's got it all.
Speaker 1: Give people a website, give people some things they should do.
Speaker 3: Jordanabe dot com at you thank you so much.
Speaker 4: Absolutely love that.
Speaker 2: And on Instagram, I'm always sharing tips around body language
Speaker 2: and confidence.
Speaker 4: And how to carry ourselves and share our voice.
Speaker 2: And it's Grdana Bornstein, which is really hard to spell,
Speaker 2: but if you make it there, I'd love to see
Speaker 2: you