WEBVTT - Are you a chronic over-flapper?

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<v Speaker 1>We had a chat with our next guest, Jordana, the

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<v Speaker 1>communications and body language expert, a couple of weeks ago,

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<v Speaker 1>and a lot of people gave us some good feedback

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<v Speaker 1>on that. Seems that everybody's really interested in the secrets

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<v Speaker 1>that we give away when we have a look at

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<v Speaker 1>somebody else's body language or our own body language and

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<v Speaker 1>don't realize we're doing it. So this week, let's talk

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<v Speaker 1>about chronic overflapping, which Jordana, good morning to you. Has

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<v Speaker 1>a lot to do with people and the way they

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<v Speaker 1>move their arms and they gesticulate, which I think I'm

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit of a gesticulator too. It's like I'm

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<v Speaker 1>playing sort of you know, an air organ or something

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<v Speaker 1>like that.

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<v Speaker 2>So you're in one of the two most popular categories.

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<v Speaker 2>We tend to be overflapped or we tend to be underflappers.

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<v Speaker 2>The problem with overflapping is that we have a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of uninternal movement when we're speaking, which means a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of the focus of our message. People are distracted by

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<v Speaker 2>seeing that unintentional movement with our hands.

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<v Speaker 3>Like I liken it to fill the words when we're talking.

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<v Speaker 2>So if we're trying to rush through because we feel

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<v Speaker 2>like all the eyes are on us.

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<v Speaker 3>Will say like, but I don't.

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<v Speaker 2>Mean it's just because we really want to get our

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<v Speaker 2>message across. But we feel pressure so fast and we're

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<v Speaker 2>not thinking. And it's the same thing when we're using

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<v Speaker 2>our hands and we're flucking them around.

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<v Speaker 3>It's very distracting.

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<v Speaker 1>I find I do this when I'm searching for words.

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<v Speaker 1>When I know exactly where I'm going with my stream

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<v Speaker 1>of consciousness, I don't do it as much.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh well, that's so interesting because there was actually research

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<v Speaker 2>by a professor of psychology at the University of Chicago.

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<v Speaker 3>Her name is Susan.

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<v Speaker 2>Golds and Meadow, and she found it gesturing while we're

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<v Speaker 2>speaking actually does light in the cognode, and when we're young,

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<v Speaker 2>we actually naturally integrate gesture and speech, and our hands

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<v Speaker 2>really do emphasize, sometimes contradict our spoken words, but they

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<v Speaker 2>also do play a big role in forming our ideas.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think you're flapping when you're trying to come

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<v Speaker 2>up with your ideas and your words is actually part

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<v Speaker 2>of the physical body trying to come in to actually

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<v Speaker 2>get you to the point where you want.

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<v Speaker 1>To go, Right, I'm flapping while extrapolating.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you are doing so many unusual things at once.

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<v Speaker 2>You're flapping. Oh, you're trying to get to the message.

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<v Speaker 2>And then I wonder, when you get to the message,

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<v Speaker 2>do you stop flapping?

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<v Speaker 1>Definitely? I put my hands away and leave them by

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<v Speaker 1>my side. I wonder if it's possible to talk with

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<v Speaker 1>holding your hands on the side, and I'm doing this

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<v Speaker 1>while I'm saying this right now, whether or not it

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<v Speaker 1>changes your thought process, and it hasn't seemed to do that.

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<v Speaker 1>In fact, by taking out the flapping here, I find

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<v Speaker 1>that I'm now more focused on the conversation.

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<v Speaker 2>You are more focused on the conversation. But as the

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<v Speaker 2>person on the other side, your tonality has.

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<v Speaker 3>Dropped, ah, and you've gone more.

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<v Speaker 2>Monotone in the way that you actually shared that message.

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<v Speaker 2>So our expression is very natural to us. We normally

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<v Speaker 2>use our hands, so to take them away and not

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<v Speaker 2>have could audibly hear the change in your pitch when

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<v Speaker 2>you did that.

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<v Speaker 3>And have you heard of Vanessa van Edwards? No?

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<v Speaker 1>I haven't.

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<v Speaker 4>Oh.

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<v Speaker 2>So she's a specialist in science based people skills and

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<v Speaker 2>she analyzed more than one thousand hours of TEDx talks

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<v Speaker 2>or ted took and she wanted to work out what th.

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<v Speaker 3>Viral and others don't.

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<v Speaker 2>And so her team studied all of these variables and

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<v Speaker 2>the one differentiator they found was gestures.

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<v Speaker 3>So they found that from this particular.

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<v Speaker 2>Period of time, the most viewed TED talks had an

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<v Speaker 2>average of four hundred and sixty five gestures in eighteen minutes,

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<v Speaker 2>and the least viewed ones had an average of two

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<v Speaker 2>hundred and seventy two gestures. So we really they help

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<v Speaker 2>us bring our expression to life, They help us find

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<v Speaker 2>our words, and it also helps our message land in

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<v Speaker 2>a much more impactful way because we trust gestures.

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<v Speaker 1>Let me hit you with this scenario. What about if

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<v Speaker 1>someone's really deceptive and they were using their hands as

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<v Speaker 1>a smoke screen to deceive you from the words they're saying.

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<v Speaker 2>They would be steps ahead because normally we would use

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<v Speaker 2>our hands less if we're trying to be deceptive. So

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<v Speaker 2>if you've got someone who understands and then would use

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<v Speaker 2>their hands, I would.

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<v Speaker 3>Say that it would be quite forced movement.

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<v Speaker 2>You wouldn't have that natural flare and that natural expression

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<v Speaker 2>when we're really coming from our heart and from a

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<v Speaker 2>place of passion.

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<v Speaker 1>When you see politicians usually making a speech, they do

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<v Speaker 1>over emphasize with their hands, and I often feel that

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<v Speaker 1>that is a little bit contrived.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they do quite intentional stuff, so like they'll do

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<v Speaker 2>future framing. So future framing is where you get your

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<v Speaker 2>hand in a certain movement and you move it forward

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<v Speaker 2>when you say a certain policy or you say a

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<v Speaker 2>certain idea, and so you're literally taking your audience on

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<v Speaker 2>a journey with you, and your hand gesture is the vision.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's like, we're going to do this great thing,

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<v Speaker 2>We're going to spend this amount of money, and so

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<v Speaker 2>future framing is a technique that is actually used a

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<v Speaker 2>lot with politicians when they're taking you with them, you know, visually, on.

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<v Speaker 3>The journey as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Because we use our hands as anchors, it's another way

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<v Speaker 2>to capture our sensory elements. And the more of our

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<v Speaker 2>you know, sensory elements we engage, the more engage we are.

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<v Speaker 1>How about if someone's being like a magician, your words

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<v Speaker 1>are saying one thing, but your hands are actually taking

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<v Speaker 1>your conversation away from the words, a bit like magic yet.

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<v Speaker 3>One hundred percent or vice versa.

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<v Speaker 2>In magic, we're either using our words and focusing on

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<v Speaker 2>the story, the mind elements.

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<v Speaker 3>The linguistics.

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<v Speaker 2>We're distracting from what we're doing with our hands, or

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<v Speaker 2>we're using our hands in a certain way that creates

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<v Speaker 2>an illusion so that you're focusing on the hands and

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<v Speaker 2>you can't see what's happening in other areas. But the

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<v Speaker 2>code in magic is you can't tell anyone how a

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<v Speaker 2>magic stick is done unless they want to be a

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<v Speaker 2>magician themselves. So I think I've said enough unless you

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<v Speaker 2>want to change your career.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to just throw in a name here, because

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<v Speaker 1>I know you like it when I name drop. I

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<v Speaker 1>did an interview with David Copperfield and he stood in

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<v Speaker 1>the corner dressed completely in black, and I found out

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<v Speaker 1>afterwards it's because he's quite small in stature, and he

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't want people to realize how small he is in

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<v Speaker 1>stature because he wants to come across with the illusion

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<v Speaker 1>of being grand. Wow.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh my gosh. I had no idea that he was small,

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<v Speaker 3>because I've seen him in real life. He was definitely

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<v Speaker 3>taller than me.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes see, he gives you that illusion, and that's why

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<v Speaker 1>I did the interview with him in the dark in

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<v Speaker 1>the corner.

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<v Speaker 3>I found out afterwards, were you wearing neon?

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<v Speaker 2>No?

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<v Speaker 1>Wish I had wish I had a torch.

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<v Speaker 3>Did you find you did you have a flashlight? How

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<v Speaker 3>did you guide your way through?

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<v Speaker 1>They just pointed me to a couple of darty eyes

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<v Speaker 1>in the corner.

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<v Speaker 3>And then you're looking at your interview notes. Did were

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<v Speaker 3>you're using your iPhone to it?

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<v Speaker 1>No? No, this was before iPhone.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh okay, I'll go on the illusion. That was such

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<v Speaker 3>a good picture that I had in my mind as well.

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<v Speaker 1>I can go with that if you want.

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<v Speaker 3>With David Copperfield. Sounds like a really good opening for

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<v Speaker 3>a show.

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<v Speaker 1>I think, so to hang on there a second, join Dana.

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<v Speaker 1>We're talking the body language. And I just got a

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<v Speaker 1>text too that came in from Belinda saying why do

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<v Speaker 1>people say yes but then shake their head no? And

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<v Speaker 1>that's really quite difficult to do too, to say yes,

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<v Speaker 1>have a go to to say yes but then shake

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<v Speaker 1>their head no. Yes, No, I've confused my head even

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<v Speaker 1>by trying to do that one three one eight seven

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<v Speaker 1>three or on the text zero four six zero eight

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<v Speaker 1>seven three eight seven three if you've got any body

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<v Speaker 1>language questions. More with Jordana after this. Jeff on the text,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm a martial artist. If I'm talking to someone that's

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<v Speaker 1>throwing their arms around while talking. I see this as

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<v Speaker 1>threatening behavior and I will grab their arm and stop it.

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<v Speaker 1>So jor Dana's on the phone, and she is a

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<v Speaker 1>communications and body language expert. How do you what should

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<v Speaker 1>you do? If you want people then if they're looking

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<v Speaker 1>at the way you move your arms around, for example,

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<v Speaker 1>but you're trying to be sincere, and you want them

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<v Speaker 1>to realize that you're being sincere and maybe even non threatening,

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<v Speaker 1>what would you do?

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<v Speaker 2>Open palms is trust, open palms is honesty. So we

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<v Speaker 2>want to look at the opposite of what we would

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<v Speaker 2>naturally do. So, if you've been accused of something and

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<v Speaker 2>genuinely it wasn't you, what do you naturally do with

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<v Speaker 2>your hands?

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<v Speaker 3>You go, welln't me? And what do you what do

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<v Speaker 3>you do with your hands?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you hold them up as if you're under arrest

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<v Speaker 1>one hundred percent? Well you put them forward? Yeah, you

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<v Speaker 1>put them forward as if to say, look, there's nothing here,

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<v Speaker 1>there's nothing hidden.

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<v Speaker 4>Exactly, And that goes back centuries.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a primal cue, you know, associated with sincerity and

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<v Speaker 2>transperity and safety in connection.

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<v Speaker 4>And we literally show we're not hiding anything.

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<v Speaker 2>So when we don't use our hands or we hide

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<v Speaker 2>them underneath the table, very unnatural. In fact, we tend

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<v Speaker 2>to trust people less if we actually can't see their hands,

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<v Speaker 2>because there's part of their body that we don't.

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<v Speaker 3>Know what's happening.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, back in the caveman eras, we would

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<v Speaker 2>see if we would trust someone by what they were

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<v Speaker 2>holding in their hands, are you holding a weapon?

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<v Speaker 3>Or are your palms open? And now?

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<v Speaker 4>Can I trust you instantly?

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<v Speaker 1>What about if someone is lying to you, or someone's deceptive,

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<v Speaker 1>if someone's a narcissist, what do they do when they're

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<v Speaker 1>trying to fool you?

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<v Speaker 3>Good question?

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<v Speaker 2>I would say anything anytime we can't see the hands

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<v Speaker 2>or they're static, that would be a distraction from how

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<v Speaker 2>would I normally carry myself.

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<v Speaker 1>What about if somebody talks to and they keep their

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<v Speaker 1>hands in their pockets because I've always thought that's just

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<v Speaker 1>somebody who's socially uncomfortable. Could there be another meaning to that?

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<v Speaker 2>Sometimes it's literally just because it is such a comfortable

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<v Speaker 2>position that they've done for years and years and years.

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<v Speaker 2>But we always need to think, what is this done

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<v Speaker 2>that we're in, what is this interaction?

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<v Speaker 4>And what message am I trying to convey right now?

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<v Speaker 3>Because we tend to see the world. In fact, we

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<v Speaker 3>do see the world through our own lens.

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<v Speaker 2>So what happens is I will judge your body language

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<v Speaker 2>and how you carry yourself based on how I would

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<v Speaker 2>do that gesture myself. So if I'm in a meeting

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<v Speaker 2>with you and you're sitting with your hands and your

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<v Speaker 2>fingers are interlocked at the table, you might be really calm,

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<v Speaker 2>or you might be you know, considering something, or you

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<v Speaker 2>might you know, be quite angry. I will look at

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<v Speaker 2>you and go, how would I be feeling if I

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<v Speaker 2>use my hands like that right now?

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<v Speaker 3>And then I will.

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<v Speaker 2>Project my own emotions and my own judgment of how

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<v Speaker 2>I would use that gesture onto you. So we need

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<v Speaker 2>to be open and neutral at all times because otherwise

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<v Speaker 2>there's a real risk of miscommunication and misunderstanding, even if

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<v Speaker 2>it's not intentional. So coming back to the guys with

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<v Speaker 2>the hands in the pockets, like, yeah, as I said,

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<v Speaker 2>it might be a really calm and casual position, but

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<v Speaker 2>if someone's looking at us, it's.

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<v Speaker 4>It's a very fast judgment to go, oh they're.

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<v Speaker 3>Uncomfortable, they're awkward.

0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:07.480
<v Speaker 4>Oh they don't feel you know, in their power in

0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:08.080
<v Speaker 4>this moment.

0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:11.840
<v Speaker 2>Remember, in our last chat, I've got you to visualize.

0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:13.760
<v Speaker 1>Glitter chess, yes, Mariah Kerry.

0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:18.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so yeah, it's getting us into a confident pose.

0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:20.800
<v Speaker 3>Anything that stops us from punching.

0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:24.640
<v Speaker 2>Down and closing ourselves off instantly opens us up. Confidence

0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:28.120
<v Speaker 2>equals power, not just for ourselves, but also in terms

0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:29.840
<v Speaker 2>of the energy that we're actually giving off.

0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:31.600
<v Speaker 3>Wow. I often get.

0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:33.720
<v Speaker 4>Asked about hands behind our back. We want to avoid

0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:34.360
<v Speaker 4>that as well.

0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:35.680
<v Speaker 1>Why is that Because.

0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:37.880
<v Speaker 2>It's a more open posture than having them closed in

0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:40.680
<v Speaker 2>front of us, But it is also a signal for

0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:44.520
<v Speaker 2>a level of discomfort or I'm hiding something from you.

0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:48.640
<v Speaker 2>Because if your hands are hidden, so again, we can't

0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:51.199
<v Speaker 2>see that, and there is a level of distrust when

0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:53.520
<v Speaker 2>we can't see your hands, even though it does obviously

0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:55.280
<v Speaker 2>help your chest be open and neutral.

0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:57.559
<v Speaker 3>And we don't want a point. We hate pointers.

0:10:57.840 --> 0:10:59.920
<v Speaker 4>We don't want a point that comes across as aggressive.

0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:03.760
<v Speaker 1>Well, that's what I always say. Sometimes the hands can't

0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:05.400
<v Speaker 1>see what the eyes are saying.

0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:07.600
<v Speaker 4>I love your.

0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:09.920
<v Speaker 3>Little I'm going to call them pearls of wisdom.

0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:11.400
<v Speaker 1>Ye, I just make that up. I tell you. I

0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:12.760
<v Speaker 1>just came to be like that, you know, And I

0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:14.960
<v Speaker 1>wasn't even moving my hands to come to that pearler.

0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:17.960
<v Speaker 3>You know, you've got such a convincing tone when you

0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:19.720
<v Speaker 3>say that. Amazing gems.

0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:22.800
<v Speaker 1>Don't forget that great philosopher that I have studied, George

0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:27.440
<v Speaker 1>Costanza from Seinfeld, when he said believe the lie.

0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:28.559
<v Speaker 3>He's got it all.

0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:30.640
<v Speaker 1>Give people a website, give people some things they should do.

0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:33.520
<v Speaker 3>Jordanabe dot com at you thank you so much.

0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:34.439
<v Speaker 4>Absolutely love that.

0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:38.360
<v Speaker 2>And on Instagram, I'm always sharing tips around body language

0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:39.920
<v Speaker 2>and confidence.

0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:41.400
<v Speaker 4>And how to carry ourselves and share our voice.

0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:44.360
<v Speaker 2>And it's Grdana Bornstein, which is really hard to spell,

0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:46.040
<v Speaker 2>but if you make it there, I'd love to see

0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:46.320
<v Speaker 2>you