1 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:10,720 S1: Hey, I'm Usman Farooqi and this is the drop a 2 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,510 S1: culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age, 3 00:00:13,510 --> 00:00:15,550 S1: where we dive into the latest in the world of 4 00:00:15,550 --> 00:00:19,450 S1: pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Thomas Mitchell and 5 00:00:19,450 --> 00:00:22,810 S1: the Zendaya of this podcast. Mel Kambouris is here. She's 6 00:00:22,810 --> 00:00:24,640 S1: back baby, how you doing Mel? 7 00:00:24,850 --> 00:00:27,850 S2: Ah I'm good. Look at this smile. I'm so happy 8 00:00:27,850 --> 00:00:29,770 S2: to be back with you guys, mainly to save you 9 00:00:29,770 --> 00:00:32,140 S2: from yourselves, but also just to hang out. 10 00:00:32,170 --> 00:00:34,120 S1: Thomas is beaming. Thomas is beaming. 11 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:36,790 S3: I am very excited. I did miss Melanie. Uh, not 12 00:00:36,790 --> 00:00:39,610 S3: as much as the listeners, and especially my sister, who 13 00:00:39,610 --> 00:00:41,680 S3: kept texting me asking when Mel would be back on 14 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:42,220 S3: the podcast. 15 00:00:42,370 --> 00:00:43,989 S2: The best Mitchell in the family. 16 00:00:43,990 --> 00:00:45,760 S1: You could have come back a week earlier when we 17 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:49,090 S1: fumbled our way through a conversation about mothers in live 18 00:00:49,090 --> 00:00:53,379 S1: comedy spaces and, uh, the biggest woman pop star in 19 00:00:53,380 --> 00:00:55,690 S1: the history of the world. You know, I. 20 00:00:55,690 --> 00:00:57,550 S2: Know I feel like I missed out on some subjects 21 00:00:57,550 --> 00:00:59,470 S2: where I really would have had a point of view. But, 22 00:00:59,470 --> 00:01:01,690 S2: I mean, you guys, you guys handled it, I'm sure. 23 00:01:01,690 --> 00:01:03,610 S3: Well, I mean, you don't know if we handled it because. 24 00:01:03,610 --> 00:01:06,100 S3: And this is like, really doing my head in. Mel 25 00:01:06,100 --> 00:01:08,860 S3: refused to listen to the podcast while she was on holidays. 26 00:01:08,860 --> 00:01:11,140 S2: I didn't refuse. It was just I knew if I 27 00:01:11,140 --> 00:01:13,300 S2: listened to it, I would kind of get sucked in 28 00:01:13,300 --> 00:01:15,340 S2: and I'd want to engage and I wouldn't be able 29 00:01:15,340 --> 00:01:18,100 S2: to tap out, and I kept I knew, I kept saying, 30 00:01:18,100 --> 00:01:19,360 S2: I'll do it, I'll do it, I'll do it. And 31 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:20,890 S2: then I just never did it. So now I don't 32 00:01:20,890 --> 00:01:23,200 S2: know what you've said about me, what's slander, what lies 33 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:25,090 S2: you've told, but I'm just going to have to let 34 00:01:25,090 --> 00:01:25,690 S2: it sit. 35 00:01:25,690 --> 00:01:27,670 S1: Well, okay, so you weren't listening to the podcast, but 36 00:01:27,670 --> 00:01:29,170 S1: what were you doing? Can you tell us a bit 37 00:01:29,170 --> 00:01:31,000 S1: about this trip? What were the highlights? 38 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,130 S2: Oh, there was lots of lots of fun. So I 39 00:01:33,130 --> 00:01:35,830 S2: went to Dubai. I went to Paris, went to London, 40 00:01:35,830 --> 00:01:38,020 S2: they went to Singapore. So a little round trip. I 41 00:01:38,020 --> 00:01:39,940 S2: have to say one of the highlights was all the 42 00:01:39,940 --> 00:01:41,920 S2: plane films I got. Yeah. So it's a. 43 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:43,509 S1: Lot of flights. What did you watch? 44 00:01:43,510 --> 00:01:46,000 S2: Yeah. And like this is actually quite fitting because I 45 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,160 S2: watched a lot of mid films. I don't like watching 46 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:50,050 S2: like really good films on planes. So I kind of 47 00:01:50,050 --> 00:01:52,120 S2: used it as an opportunity to catch up on all 48 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:54,280 S2: the kind of things I hadn't quite got around to like. 49 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,550 S2: I watched Mean Girls the Musical, not not great. Wonka, 50 00:01:57,670 --> 00:02:01,240 S2: Wonka the musical. Wow. Not not great. I checked in 51 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:04,090 S2: on Woody Allen watch. Stroke of luck. Very Woody Allen. 52 00:02:04,090 --> 00:02:08,260 S2: Still doing the same thing. Not not not great. Um, 53 00:02:08,260 --> 00:02:11,320 S2: and then I watched. Are you There? God. It's me, Margaret, which. 54 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:12,820 S1: Is pretty great film. Pretty great film. 55 00:02:12,820 --> 00:02:15,070 S2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was the best of the lot. 56 00:02:15,220 --> 00:02:17,080 S3: But in, like, all this hours of flying time, you 57 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:19,570 S3: couldn't find any time for a mid podcast that you 58 00:02:19,570 --> 00:02:21,700 S3: sometimes that you sometimes feature on. 59 00:02:21,700 --> 00:02:23,440 S2: Well, I knew I definitely needed to listen to it 60 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:24,970 S2: when I was connected to the internet so I could 61 00:02:24,970 --> 00:02:27,370 S2: give you kind of live feedback on it. But you 62 00:02:27,370 --> 00:02:31,210 S2: know what else I did watch another kind of mid thing, um, you, 63 00:02:31,210 --> 00:02:33,580 S2: you know, the thriller. You I've watched you I never 64 00:02:33,580 --> 00:02:35,410 S2: watched it though. A great Netflix. 65 00:02:35,410 --> 00:02:36,850 S1: Show with the guy from Gossip Girl. 66 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,630 S2: Yeah. That's it, Ben Badgley. Um, yeah. Very bingeable on 67 00:02:40,630 --> 00:02:41,169 S2: a plane. 68 00:02:41,169 --> 00:02:43,600 S1: Are you up to date with any new releases? 69 00:02:43,900 --> 00:02:49,149 S2: Well, no. The new releases were all things we've seen 70 00:02:49,150 --> 00:02:51,610 S2: or discussed, really. But I did go back and watch 71 00:02:51,610 --> 00:02:53,920 S2: Priscilla again, which I had seen in cinemas, and I 72 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:56,980 S2: do think that film was like hugely underrated. I really 73 00:02:56,980 --> 00:02:57,820 S2: liked that film. 74 00:02:58,210 --> 00:02:59,799 S1: Have you seen challenges yet? 75 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:01,750 S2: I still haven't seen it. They didn't have it on 76 00:03:01,750 --> 00:03:03,820 S2: the plane, but I also would not have watched it 77 00:03:03,820 --> 00:03:05,470 S2: on the plane because I feel like I need to 78 00:03:05,470 --> 00:03:07,299 S2: watch that in the cinema. 79 00:03:07,300 --> 00:03:10,630 S1: You need the cinematic experience, you need the audio reverberating 80 00:03:10,630 --> 00:03:12,850 S1: from that soundtrack in a cinema for that one. Yeah, I. 81 00:03:12,850 --> 00:03:14,470 S2: Agree, and you probably would watch it on a plane 82 00:03:14,470 --> 00:03:16,690 S2: because you fly business class. But for the rest of us, 83 00:03:16,690 --> 00:03:19,930 S2: economy is not where you did all those flights. Economy 84 00:03:19,930 --> 00:03:22,090 S2: I am I like at the end I was like, 85 00:03:22,090 --> 00:03:24,880 S2: this is inhumane how we have to the worst. 86 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,400 S3: Thing about you not seeing challenges or not being here 87 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:29,799 S3: for our discussion was that I couldn't, like, hastily make 88 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:31,510 S3: a meme with the three of us are sitting on 89 00:03:31,510 --> 00:03:34,420 S3: the bed like the challenges mean that he's currently doing 90 00:03:34,419 --> 00:03:35,470 S3: the rounds on the internet. 91 00:03:35,470 --> 00:03:38,320 S1: Uh, the way that that film has just become like 92 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,680 S1: the pop cultural zeitgeist kind of thing of the moment. 93 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,470 S1: It's pretty extraordinary. I watched it again, actually, and had 94 00:03:44,470 --> 00:03:45,880 S1: a bit more fun with it this time when I 95 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,910 S1: wasn't trying to, I guess, overanalyze what it was trying 96 00:03:48,910 --> 00:03:51,070 S1: to say about the world, as we discussed on last 97 00:03:51,070 --> 00:03:52,750 S1: week's episode. But it is a really fun film, and 98 00:03:52,750 --> 00:03:54,610 S1: it makes total sense. I think it's sort of like 99 00:03:54,610 --> 00:03:58,330 S1: the Saltburn of this current moment. There's just so many like, 100 00:03:58,330 --> 00:04:00,880 S1: fan edits all over TikTok, but it's a much better 101 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:01,839 S1: film than Saltburn. 102 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:03,850 S2: I'm very excited to see it. And have you guys 103 00:04:03,850 --> 00:04:06,520 S2: each considered taking up kind of fashion to serve the 104 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:07,570 S2: tennis fashion? 105 00:04:07,870 --> 00:04:10,570 S3: Well, I'm pretty good at tennis, so so I feel 106 00:04:10,570 --> 00:04:13,270 S3: like I've got that covered. We should actually play tennis 107 00:04:13,270 --> 00:04:14,320 S3: one day. That would be. 108 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:15,070 S2: Fun. I dropped tennis. 109 00:04:15,070 --> 00:04:17,409 S1: Comp. I would absolutely play tennis with you guys. I'd 110 00:04:17,410 --> 00:04:19,660 S1: beat you both so hard. 111 00:04:19,990 --> 00:04:20,919 S2: Do you actually think so? 112 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:21,880 S3: I reckon I would crush you both. 113 00:04:21,910 --> 00:04:22,840 S2: I'm pretty nimble. 114 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,030 S1: You guys are both pretty good at tennis. You're telling me? 115 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:27,520 S3: But we play doubles together, obviously. 116 00:04:28,420 --> 00:04:31,330 S1: And we did actually get a review while you were away, Mel. 117 00:04:31,330 --> 00:04:36,220 S1: And the title was you need Mel. Exclamation mark, exclamation mark. Uh, 118 00:04:36,220 --> 00:04:39,520 S1: it was by, um, someone called Del Kathryn, who is 119 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:43,120 S1: maybe the two time Archibald Prize winner, del Kathryn Barton, 120 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,120 S1: if it's you. Thanks for listening and I guess thanks 121 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:47,830 S1: for your review. I don't know, they said I love 122 00:04:47,830 --> 00:04:53,140 S1: this podcast, but it's seriously lacking chemistry and nuance without Mel. 123 00:04:53,140 --> 00:04:57,250 S1: I hope she's back soon. Seriously lacking chemistry and nuance. 124 00:04:57,250 --> 00:04:59,320 S1: That's a lot. I thought you and I, Thomas had 125 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:01,960 S1: heaps of chemistry. Maybe even too much chemistry. 126 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:03,400 S3: That's what I think as well. 127 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:05,529 S2: I can imagine just telling each other how jacked you 128 00:05:05,529 --> 00:05:07,359 S2: are for like hours on end. 129 00:05:07,570 --> 00:05:10,120 S3: It was the most obnoxious echo chamber, but I loved it. 130 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,669 S3: Couldn't wait to get back here every week. No, but yeah, 131 00:05:12,670 --> 00:05:15,339 S3: like that is a, I guess look. It's a scathing 132 00:05:15,339 --> 00:05:17,830 S3: but also kind of nice review. But I do suspect 133 00:05:17,830 --> 00:05:21,010 S3: that people the people miss Melanie Kembrey. Uh, they missed 134 00:05:21,010 --> 00:05:24,640 S3: her smart and nuanced takes and also all her book chats. 135 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:26,950 S3: So I think we're all glad that she's back. Uh, 136 00:05:26,950 --> 00:05:28,990 S3: and she also went to a bunch of jazz clubs 137 00:05:28,990 --> 00:05:31,660 S3: when she was away. So she's into jazz now. So 138 00:05:31,660 --> 00:05:33,250 S3: there's so much to learn about the new mill. And 139 00:05:33,250 --> 00:05:34,330 S3: I'm very glad you're back on the pod. 140 00:05:34,330 --> 00:05:36,370 S2: Yeah, that's very nice. Thank you. Thomas, maybe the nicest 141 00:05:36,370 --> 00:05:37,870 S2: thing you've ever said to me. Um, no. 142 00:05:37,870 --> 00:05:39,910 S1: It's great. The Dream Team is here. We're ready to 143 00:05:39,910 --> 00:05:44,109 S1: tackle the big questions looming over culture this week, which 144 00:05:44,140 --> 00:05:48,430 S1: include are we living in an era of mid TV? 145 00:05:48,460 --> 00:05:50,620 S1: That's a question that was posed by the New York 146 00:05:50,620 --> 00:05:54,370 S1: Times chief TV critic this week. Really, really interesting. Long 147 00:05:54,370 --> 00:05:57,339 S1: read looking at the current state of the TV landscape 148 00:05:57,339 --> 00:06:00,820 S1: and why so much of it, even the most interesting shows, 149 00:06:00,820 --> 00:06:02,830 S1: the ones that we talk about pretty regularly, don't seem 150 00:06:02,830 --> 00:06:06,850 S1: to be hitting as hard as great television used to. 151 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:09,430 S1: We're going to dig into that piece and discuss our thoughts. 152 00:06:09,430 --> 00:06:12,130 S1: We're also, and I'm very excited for this one, going 153 00:06:12,130 --> 00:06:15,130 S1: to discuss the new Anne Hathaway rom com that is 154 00:06:15,130 --> 00:06:18,610 S1: being released on Amazon Prime Video today. The idea of you, 155 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,580 S1: where it fits into this contemporary rom com renaissance that 156 00:06:21,580 --> 00:06:25,630 S1: we seem to be going through. But first Guys, Jerry 157 00:06:25,630 --> 00:06:29,320 S1: Seinfeld has some thoughts about the state of comedy. He's 158 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:34,150 S1: promoting his upcoming Netflix film Unfrosted, which is about the 159 00:06:34,150 --> 00:06:37,270 S1: origin of the Pop-Tart. Yep, that's a real movie that 160 00:06:37,270 --> 00:06:41,140 S1: is coming out, directed by starring Jerry Seinfeld. In a 161 00:06:41,140 --> 00:06:44,890 S1: podcast interview with The New Yorker's editor David Remnick, Seinfeld 162 00:06:44,890 --> 00:06:48,760 S1: shared his view that, quote, the extreme left and PC 163 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:52,330 S1: crap had made it harder for comedians to write sitcoms 164 00:06:52,330 --> 00:06:57,070 S1: like his obviously famous and beloved show, Seinfeld. Thomas, you 165 00:06:57,070 --> 00:07:00,940 S1: covered what Seinfeld said for us in the paper this week. 166 00:07:00,940 --> 00:07:02,469 S1: Can you tell us a bit more about what he 167 00:07:02,470 --> 00:07:04,450 S1: actually discussed with Remnick? 168 00:07:05,020 --> 00:07:07,870 S3: Yes. Uh, firstly, I just think it's very funny that Seinfeld, 169 00:07:07,870 --> 00:07:10,180 S3: a guy who has done like four projects, one of 170 00:07:10,180 --> 00:07:11,620 S3: them being about a pop tart, one of them about 171 00:07:11,620 --> 00:07:16,630 S3: a bee is like is coming in and making these 172 00:07:16,630 --> 00:07:18,310 S3: comments like, he doesn't work a lot, but I mean, 173 00:07:18,310 --> 00:07:21,130 S3: he doesn't need to. He's like, show has been syndicated. Um, 174 00:07:21,130 --> 00:07:23,710 S3: so his wallet is well lined. But yeah, as you said, 175 00:07:23,710 --> 00:07:26,679 S3: the the interview, it's one of those things where you 176 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:28,660 S3: can tell as soon as you read a story and, 177 00:07:28,660 --> 00:07:30,640 S3: you know, 80% of the story is, you know, just 178 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:32,619 S3: them chatting and then there's 20%. And as soon as 179 00:07:32,620 --> 00:07:34,510 S3: you read that, 20%, you know that this is going 180 00:07:34,510 --> 00:07:36,850 S3: to be all the headlines are about. But essentially in 181 00:07:36,850 --> 00:07:40,420 S3: this chat, uh, he talk turns to the current state 182 00:07:40,420 --> 00:07:43,090 S3: of comedy. And the interviewer asked, like, how do you 183 00:07:43,090 --> 00:07:45,970 S3: grapple with all the seriousness the world is currently facing 184 00:07:45,970 --> 00:07:48,370 S3: and how it affects comedy? And Jerry kind of goes 185 00:07:48,370 --> 00:07:51,280 S3: on to say that nothing really affects comedy. People always 186 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,400 S3: need it. And then he begins to lament more the 187 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:57,820 S3: the death of the sitcom and how sitcoms aren't a 188 00:07:57,820 --> 00:07:58,570 S3: thing anymore. 189 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:00,010 S4: It used to be you would go home. At the 190 00:08:00,010 --> 00:08:02,740 S4: end of the day, most people would go, oh, cheers 191 00:08:02,740 --> 00:08:05,350 S4: is on. Oh, mash is on a Mary Tyler Moore 192 00:08:05,350 --> 00:08:08,350 S4: is on, all in, the family is on. You just 193 00:08:08,350 --> 00:08:10,480 S4: expected there'll be some funny stuff we can watch on 194 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:15,610 S4: TV tonight. Well guess what? Where is it? Where is it? Um, 195 00:08:15,610 --> 00:08:19,240 S4: this is the result of the extreme left and PC 196 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:24,100 S4: crap and people worrying so much about offending other people. Mhm. Um. 197 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:27,610 S3: And that was particularly the comments that, you know, everyone 198 00:08:27,610 --> 00:08:30,130 S3: cherry picked and jumped on as, oh, this is, you know, 199 00:08:30,130 --> 00:08:32,860 S3: is Jerry Seinfeld one of the great comics of our time, 200 00:08:32,860 --> 00:08:35,740 S3: you know, saying that comedy is is dead now as 201 00:08:35,740 --> 00:08:38,229 S3: a result of the extreme left. Other things that I 202 00:08:38,230 --> 00:08:40,689 S3: think are interesting that people have also jumped on. He 203 00:08:40,690 --> 00:08:43,270 S3: does talk about, you know, David Remnick says, well, what 204 00:08:43,270 --> 00:08:45,459 S3: about Curb Your Enthusiasm, a show that you're involved with 205 00:08:45,460 --> 00:08:48,370 S3: that only just finished that is famously pretty, you know, 206 00:08:48,370 --> 00:08:51,730 S3: happy to take on anyone and everyone. But Jerry says, well, look, 207 00:08:51,730 --> 00:08:54,100 S3: Larry David's a special case. He's got, you know, a 208 00:08:54,100 --> 00:08:55,720 S3: lot of skin in the game, money in the bank. 209 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:59,650 S3: He's been around forever before these kind of rules were enforced. 210 00:08:59,650 --> 00:09:01,600 S3: And so he doesn't really count because. 211 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:03,670 S5: Isn't that what curb is all about? Yeah. 212 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:08,200 S4: Larry was Larry was grandfathered in. He's old enough that 213 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:11,469 S4: I don't have to observe those rules because I started 214 00:09:11,470 --> 00:09:13,150 S4: before you made those rules. 215 00:09:13,150 --> 00:09:15,520 S3: We did. And basically he ends it by saying, look, 216 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,310 S3: the reality is, if Larry David was 35, there's no 217 00:09:18,309 --> 00:09:20,440 S3: way he would be able to, as a young comic, 218 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,860 S3: get these ideas over the line. And essentially he ends 219 00:09:23,860 --> 00:09:25,569 S3: it with saying, stand up comedy is the place where 220 00:09:25,570 --> 00:09:28,449 S3: the edgy and risky comedy can live. Now the sitcom 221 00:09:28,450 --> 00:09:30,610 S3: is dead, although he does concede towards the end that 222 00:09:30,610 --> 00:09:33,939 S3: maybe things are slightly correcting back in the right way now. 223 00:09:33,940 --> 00:09:37,360 S3: Maybe our, you know, this over political correction is is 224 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:39,370 S3: is over, and we're going to start to see a 225 00:09:39,370 --> 00:09:42,340 S3: more sane approach to comedy. And naturally, you know, that 226 00:09:42,340 --> 00:09:45,280 S3: has ignited, again, a kind of culture war where people 227 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:47,559 S3: on the right are being like, yes. Finally, Jerry Seinfeld, 228 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:49,600 S3: you know, is saying what we're all thinking. You've got 229 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:52,450 S3: Elon Musk tweeting out clips from the interview saying, ah, 230 00:09:52,450 --> 00:09:55,090 S3: thank you, Jerry. And then at the same time, people 231 00:09:55,090 --> 00:09:56,380 S3: on the other side of the spectrum are saying, oh, 232 00:09:56,380 --> 00:09:59,470 S3: here we go again. This is John Cleese and Ricky 233 00:09:59,470 --> 00:10:03,069 S3: Gervais and Dave Chappelle, all these rusted on comics who 234 00:10:03,250 --> 00:10:05,589 S3: do not lack a platform saying that you can't say 235 00:10:05,590 --> 00:10:08,230 S3: anything anymore. So that's kind of the state of play. Yeah, it's. 236 00:10:08,230 --> 00:10:11,709 S1: A really another really interesting example of how everyone on 237 00:10:11,710 --> 00:10:13,780 S1: every side of this would just sort of cherry pick 238 00:10:13,780 --> 00:10:16,930 S1: the one line that they think backs up their own 239 00:10:16,929 --> 00:10:20,319 S1: perspective on this issue. When I saw this stuff being 240 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:22,630 S1: sort of dunked on on social media, a lot of 241 00:10:22,630 --> 00:10:25,420 S1: people immediately pointed out, well, you know, what about curb? 242 00:10:25,420 --> 00:10:27,040 S1: And it's interesting, as you pointed out, that in his 243 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:29,530 S1: interview actually sort of discusses that head on. And I 244 00:10:29,530 --> 00:10:32,079 S1: want to I want to talk to you guys about that. 245 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:34,330 S1: Whether we think he's right in terms of his argument 246 00:10:34,330 --> 00:10:37,600 S1: that Larry's grandfathered into the system, I'm kind of also 247 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,870 S1: a bit confused by his reference to to shows like 248 00:10:40,870 --> 00:10:45,189 S1: Mash and cheers. Like, is Mash like a famously anti-woke show? 249 00:10:45,190 --> 00:10:48,100 S1: It's like a satire on the Korean War. I know 250 00:10:48,100 --> 00:10:50,260 S1: there's a character called Hot Lips Houlihan, and there was 251 00:10:50,260 --> 00:10:53,050 S1: like a lot of casual sexual harassment of her in 252 00:10:53,050 --> 00:10:56,380 S1: the workplace, which in this instance was a mobile surgical 253 00:10:56,380 --> 00:11:00,520 S1: hospital in Korea. Uh, so maybe that couldn't happen as much. 254 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,700 S1: Maybe that's not necessarily a bad thing, but, um, I yeah, 255 00:11:03,700 --> 00:11:05,080 S1: I kind of think there's maybe a couple of different 256 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:07,060 S1: bits of this. One is what happened to the sitcom, 257 00:11:07,059 --> 00:11:10,060 S1: because Jerry's right that we don't have shows like Mash 258 00:11:10,059 --> 00:11:13,540 S1: and The Mary Tyler Moore Show, uh, on every night. 259 00:11:13,540 --> 00:11:16,030 S1: And then there's a question of, okay, is that because 260 00:11:16,030 --> 00:11:21,640 S1: of a oppressive culture that doesn't let comedians write on 261 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,160 S1: his jokes? What was your kind of immediate reaction to 262 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:24,820 S1: this one? Mel? 263 00:11:25,090 --> 00:11:27,760 S2: Yeah, I mean, I guess alarm bells always ring for 264 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,240 S2: me when someone who is no longer quote unquote as 265 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:35,620 S2: relevant as they once were suddenly bemoans their lack of relevance, 266 00:11:35,620 --> 00:11:38,950 S2: but blames it on everyone else rather than reflecting on 267 00:11:38,950 --> 00:11:41,860 S2: their own kind of brand of comedy. I agree with you. 268 00:11:41,860 --> 00:11:44,319 S2: I was quite confused by those references to say that 269 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:48,429 S2: the sitcom doesn't exist in the form of Mary Tyler Moore. Cheers. Mash. Well, like, 270 00:11:48,429 --> 00:11:50,980 S2: I mean, I agree with him. We don't really have 271 00:11:50,980 --> 00:11:55,420 S2: laugh tracks and live audiences. We don't have sitcom seasons 272 00:11:55,420 --> 00:11:57,970 S2: that are 30 episodes. We don't really have those four 273 00:11:57,970 --> 00:12:00,730 S2: camera kind of shots anymore. So yeah, I guess I'm 274 00:12:00,730 --> 00:12:02,950 S2: not going to argue with him. That Mary Tyler Moore 275 00:12:02,950 --> 00:12:06,670 S2: style of sitcom doesn't exist. And I agree with you. Also, 276 00:12:06,670 --> 00:12:11,170 S2: they're not really examples of kind of daring comedy either. Um, 277 00:12:11,170 --> 00:12:14,950 S2: but I will disagree on the fact that he's lying, 278 00:12:14,950 --> 00:12:18,160 S2: that there is no longer room for inoffensive comedy. Whatever 279 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:20,770 S2: he takes inoffensive to mean. I don't think that's true. 280 00:12:20,770 --> 00:12:23,110 S2: I think the sitcom has evolved, and I still think 281 00:12:23,110 --> 00:12:25,960 S2: there are. There are shows that are pushing the edges 282 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,110 S2: of what comedy is on TV. So I disagree on 283 00:12:29,140 --> 00:12:29,980 S2: that point. 284 00:12:29,980 --> 00:12:32,679 S1: That was my initial reaction as well. And I went 285 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,050 S1: straight to say a show like curb, which at some 286 00:12:35,170 --> 00:12:39,520 S1: point I literally just wrapped up and continued to say 287 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:41,620 S1: all sorts of things that people say, you can't say 288 00:12:41,620 --> 00:12:45,880 S1: anymore about race and religion and gender and, you know, 289 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:48,040 S1: gender identity and sexuality and all these kinds of things. 290 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:50,560 S1: I also thought about a show, one of my favorite shows, 291 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:54,520 S1: Always Sunny in Philadelphia, which just like continues to find. 292 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:59,430 S1: Quite funny and interesting ways to say extremely crass things. 293 00:12:59,429 --> 00:13:02,160 S1: But then I wanted to ask you guys about his 294 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:05,610 S1: argument that, okay, sure, shows like that exist, but they've 295 00:13:05,610 --> 00:13:10,199 S1: been around for decades. They started an era where it was, 296 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:12,840 S1: according to him, easier to say whatever you wanted and 297 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:14,910 S1: you couldn't do it now if you were a 35 298 00:13:14,910 --> 00:13:17,849 S1: year old Larry David. Do you think there's some merit 299 00:13:17,850 --> 00:13:18,720 S1: to that? Thomas? 300 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:21,620 S3: Yeah, I do think there is like, you know, Always 301 00:13:21,620 --> 00:13:24,830 S3: Sunny started in 2005. That's a very long time ago. 302 00:13:24,830 --> 00:13:27,199 S3: So many people like this tweet yesterday went viral about 303 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,079 S3: the popularity of Veep, a sitcom that is again, you know, 304 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,840 S3: doesn't shy away from going into areas that are tricky. 305 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:35,569 S3: But also, like Veep started in 2012, that's like now 306 00:13:35,570 --> 00:13:38,750 S3: 12 years ago. It was also starring Julia Louis-Dreyfus, one 307 00:13:38,750 --> 00:13:40,790 S3: of the most famous sitcom stars of all time. And 308 00:13:40,790 --> 00:13:43,790 S3: it's created by Armando Iannucci, who has got, like, enormous 309 00:13:43,790 --> 00:13:45,740 S3: money in the bank. These are not like these are 310 00:13:45,740 --> 00:13:48,050 S3: people who will get their shows greenlit. I get the 311 00:13:48,050 --> 00:13:50,570 S3: feeling with this entire thing and what's kind of been 312 00:13:50,570 --> 00:13:53,270 S3: lost in maybe the edit of the transcript or, or 313 00:13:53,270 --> 00:13:55,790 S3: just what we got to see of the chat. I 314 00:13:55,790 --> 00:13:59,420 S3: really think, like Jerry was talking about the state of 315 00:13:59,420 --> 00:14:01,490 S3: comedy right now. If you're a young up and comer, 316 00:14:01,490 --> 00:14:04,880 S3: that's not like able to just like use your back 317 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,970 S3: catalog to get something over the line. Like, I feel 318 00:14:07,970 --> 00:14:10,849 S3: like he was that got lost in the back and forth. 319 00:14:10,850 --> 00:14:13,220 S3: But you know, obviously there are going to be people 320 00:14:13,220 --> 00:14:15,410 S3: who can get edgy shows made. But I think he's 321 00:14:15,410 --> 00:14:18,680 S3: saying if you're a 20 something, 30 something comic and 322 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:20,960 S3: you're pitching to a network and you don't have a 323 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,630 S3: lot of, you know, prior experience and you're trying to 324 00:14:23,630 --> 00:14:26,450 S3: write something edgy, there's a high chance that you may 325 00:14:26,450 --> 00:14:29,300 S3: get like sense checked to death before you get anywhere 326 00:14:29,300 --> 00:14:33,950 S3: near like, production. And I think in some ways, I 327 00:14:33,950 --> 00:14:36,560 S3: definitely think that there's a lot in this that I 328 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:38,570 S3: don't agree with. And there is an element of like 329 00:14:38,570 --> 00:14:41,540 S3: a 70 year old multi-million dollar comedian who just, like, 330 00:14:41,540 --> 00:14:45,320 S3: collects classic cars and doesn't probably watch much contemporary TV 331 00:14:45,350 --> 00:14:48,020 S3: being out of touch. But I do think there is 332 00:14:48,020 --> 00:14:50,390 S3: something to be said about the way in which shows 333 00:14:50,390 --> 00:14:53,090 S3: get made by committee now at these big networks, and 334 00:14:53,090 --> 00:14:55,610 S3: they are more risk adverse. And so there is a reality. 335 00:14:55,610 --> 00:14:57,290 S3: If you're a young comic that's trying to write something 336 00:14:57,290 --> 00:15:00,440 S3: really fucking weird, that maybe you do just get like 337 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,740 S3: Committee to Death. Like I can see that being a reality. 338 00:15:03,740 --> 00:15:05,750 S1: What? Look, I think I think a couple of things there. 339 00:15:05,750 --> 00:15:08,600 S1: I think I think you're right that say, shows like 340 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:12,110 S1: Veep and Always Sunny are of even a slightly different 341 00:15:12,110 --> 00:15:14,570 S1: era to where we are right now and benefit from 342 00:15:14,570 --> 00:15:16,970 S1: having these big names. But I also think, you know, 343 00:15:16,970 --> 00:15:19,490 S1: there's a big gap between Mash and Mary Tyler Moore 344 00:15:19,490 --> 00:15:22,400 S1: and and Veep and Always Sunny. So I think I 345 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:24,200 S1: think he's kind of I think the most obvious thing 346 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,330 S1: that he's probably wrong on is that we just don't 347 00:15:26,330 --> 00:15:28,550 S1: have comedies like we did in the 70s, like that 348 00:15:28,550 --> 00:15:31,040 S1: was 50 years ago. If we're saying, okay, we don't 349 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,530 S1: have comedies like we used to have 12 years ago, 350 00:15:33,530 --> 00:15:36,080 S1: that's a slightly different point. I think it's maybe one 351 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:38,390 S1: that is worth thinking about a bit, a bit more deeply. 352 00:15:38,390 --> 00:15:40,730 S1: And I actually think there is something to what you're saying, 353 00:15:40,730 --> 00:15:44,690 S1: and I'm not sure whether it's self-censorship. I'm not sure 354 00:15:44,690 --> 00:15:48,620 S1: whether it's genuine, like, you know, standards of what people 355 00:15:48,620 --> 00:15:51,350 S1: think is funny, changing. I think part of it is that, like, 356 00:15:51,350 --> 00:15:53,720 S1: there are just some things that people don't want to 357 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,000 S1: say now, because saying the n word as a white 358 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,610 S1: person is not a good thing to do. So that's 359 00:15:58,610 --> 00:16:01,700 S1: part of it too. But I wonder whether some of 360 00:16:01,700 --> 00:16:05,600 S1: what is going on is a conservatism or a fear 361 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:09,620 S1: of radicalism, or a fear of risk taking that is 362 00:16:09,620 --> 00:16:13,070 S1: existing at the big networks and big streamers. A show 363 00:16:13,070 --> 00:16:16,010 S1: like Barry, I think, really delved into this, where you 364 00:16:16,010 --> 00:16:19,850 S1: see these committees in action. This is a show about 365 00:16:19,850 --> 00:16:23,420 S1: a hit man who tries to become an actor, but 366 00:16:23,420 --> 00:16:26,360 S1: it ends up in its later seasons being about Hollywood 367 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:28,460 S1: and how you get TV shows green light. And it 368 00:16:28,460 --> 00:16:31,550 S1: is very scathing of this process. And it basically shows 369 00:16:31,550 --> 00:16:36,140 S1: how a combination of like risk averse executives, algorithms and 370 00:16:36,140 --> 00:16:38,840 S1: all these sorts of things are aimed at just creating 371 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,320 S1: the lowest cost possible show for the broadest possible audience, 372 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,690 S1: which maybe means you don't get something that is a 373 00:16:44,690 --> 00:16:47,210 S1: bit edgy and a bit provocative. And I think about 374 00:16:47,210 --> 00:16:50,660 S1: things like, you know, Post-black Lives Matter. There's episodes of 375 00:16:50,660 --> 00:16:53,450 S1: Always Sunny that don't exist on streaming platforms anymore because 376 00:16:53,450 --> 00:16:56,570 S1: it involves them doing blackface, and they've since talked about 377 00:16:56,570 --> 00:16:58,700 S1: it and they've made an episode reckoning with it, one 378 00:16:58,700 --> 00:17:01,010 S1: of my favorite episodes of community, where they all play 379 00:17:01,010 --> 00:17:06,260 S1: Dungeons and Dragons, doesn't exist anymore because Senor Chang is 380 00:17:06,260 --> 00:17:10,010 S1: in blackface. And I got to say, like, I don't know, like, 381 00:17:10,010 --> 00:17:12,740 S1: I think it's okay to say that's bad without saying 382 00:17:12,740 --> 00:17:15,560 S1: you endorse blackface. And I wonder whether there is an 383 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:17,629 S1: element of truth in some of what he's saying, in 384 00:17:17,660 --> 00:17:21,290 S1: that there is just a lack of people willing to 385 00:17:21,290 --> 00:17:25,310 S1: push a boundary for a comedic effect, because streamers don't 386 00:17:25,310 --> 00:17:29,629 S1: want to be considered anti-woke, or they just don't want 387 00:17:29,630 --> 00:17:32,540 S1: to deal with a headache of their offices being picketed 388 00:17:32,540 --> 00:17:36,020 S1: and then being the subject of petitions and campaigns. Yeah, I. 389 00:17:36,020 --> 00:17:39,619 S2: Mean, it's a very complicated discussion, and it's hard to 390 00:17:39,619 --> 00:17:43,280 S2: unpick because I think to really broad terms like woke 391 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,520 S2: and cancel culture are thrown out and no one really 392 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,940 S2: knows what we're talking about and what counts as cancel culture, 393 00:17:49,940 --> 00:17:54,710 S2: what counts as woke. So the conversation becomes very congested. 394 00:17:54,740 --> 00:17:57,560 S2: I think we've had like a significant amount of social 395 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,230 S2: change in quite a short amount of time with Black 396 00:18:00,230 --> 00:18:03,560 S2: Lives Matter, MeToo, and everyone is still trying to adjust 397 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:07,399 S2: and eventually an equilibrium will return. But at the moment 398 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,530 S2: we're in the midst of it and trying to figure 399 00:18:09,530 --> 00:18:12,770 S2: it out. I will also say there's something generational going 400 00:18:12,770 --> 00:18:16,910 S2: on to like. It is about what different generations find funny, 401 00:18:16,910 --> 00:18:20,380 S2: and that might be also what Jerry Seinfeld. Comments are 402 00:18:20,380 --> 00:18:24,550 S2: identifying that his generation and a new generation making TV. 403 00:18:24,550 --> 00:18:27,790 S2: It might not necessarily be because they're self-censoring, as people 404 00:18:27,790 --> 00:18:29,560 S2: like to think it might be, because what they find 405 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,560 S2: funny is very different. Um, and I do think I mean, 406 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:34,990 S2: I think of Dave that that TV show that we 407 00:18:34,990 --> 00:18:38,859 S2: always tell you to watch, like that's not a politically 408 00:18:38,859 --> 00:18:41,710 S2: correct show, is it? And that is, that's out there. 409 00:18:41,710 --> 00:18:44,260 S2: Even shows like, I mean, Master of None, I think 410 00:18:44,260 --> 00:18:45,909 S2: of Derry Girls. I'm trying to think of shows that 411 00:18:45,910 --> 00:18:49,000 S2: are more classic sitcoms. I mean, they are still pushing 412 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,909 S2: boundaries in certain ways. They're just pushing those boundaries in 413 00:18:51,910 --> 00:18:55,060 S2: a different way to the shows that Seinfeld is presumably 414 00:18:55,060 --> 00:18:55,899 S2: referring to. 415 00:18:55,930 --> 00:18:57,640 S1: Yeah, I think that makes sense, and I'm actually way 416 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:01,150 S1: more interested in hearing from the creators of shows like 417 00:19:01,150 --> 00:19:03,790 S1: Always Sunny and Dave about what they think about this issue, 418 00:19:03,790 --> 00:19:07,270 S1: because they are currently, in a contemporary sense, engaged in 419 00:19:07,270 --> 00:19:09,820 S1: the art of making funny TV shows that try to 420 00:19:09,820 --> 00:19:12,220 S1: push boundaries, but also do it in a way that 421 00:19:12,220 --> 00:19:15,160 S1: is like clear that they're on the right side, if 422 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:16,720 S1: you know what I mean, that they're like, I want 423 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,600 S1: to talk about these ideas, but I'm actually not a 424 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,179 S1: right wing person who doesn't believe in a trans person's 425 00:19:22,180 --> 00:19:24,190 S1: right to exist or whatever. I think the thing with 426 00:19:24,190 --> 00:19:28,930 S1: Jerry Seinfeld weighing in on this discussion is it's not 427 00:19:28,930 --> 00:19:33,100 S1: like Seinfeld was like necessarily a super edgy, provocative show, like, 428 00:19:33,100 --> 00:19:38,230 S1: largely family friendly entertainment. And it's not like his new film, 429 00:19:38,230 --> 00:19:41,650 S1: the Pop-Tarts movie is, like particularly boundary pushing. It's like, 430 00:19:41,650 --> 00:19:43,300 S1: I'm interested to hear what Larry David has to say 431 00:19:43,300 --> 00:19:46,450 S1: about this. I also wonder whether part of his desire 432 00:19:46,450 --> 00:19:48,670 S1: to to to step in on this, you know, he's 433 00:19:48,670 --> 00:19:51,190 S1: before Unfrosted was like most recently in the media because 434 00:19:51,190 --> 00:19:54,520 S1: he's regularly now subject to protests because of his views 435 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:57,640 S1: on on Israel. And sometimes you see this from people 436 00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:59,770 S1: of a certain generation where they they think they're on 437 00:19:59,770 --> 00:20:01,900 S1: the right side. And then a younger generation says you're 438 00:20:01,900 --> 00:20:04,060 S1: on the wrong side. And they react and say, well, 439 00:20:04,060 --> 00:20:07,210 S1: the extreme left and PC culture is, you know, ruining everything. 440 00:20:07,210 --> 00:20:11,260 S1: I think there is something in, in the debate around 441 00:20:11,260 --> 00:20:12,729 S1: like what you can and can't say and what you 442 00:20:12,730 --> 00:20:15,730 S1: can and can't make comedy about. I'm just not sure 443 00:20:15,730 --> 00:20:18,520 S1: that Jerry is the right person to frame that debate. 444 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:20,680 S1: When there is a new generation of comedians who are 445 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:23,230 S1: trying to have these conversations. 446 00:20:23,230 --> 00:20:25,840 S2: Yeah. Completely agree. And also, as you mentioned, he was 447 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,900 S2: famously family friendly. Like he's made the argument before about 448 00:20:28,900 --> 00:20:32,410 S2: why he doesn't swear and why inoffensive comedy is a 449 00:20:32,410 --> 00:20:34,450 S2: great kind of comedy. So it does feel odd that 450 00:20:34,450 --> 00:20:37,960 S2: he's now decrying the lack of quote unquote offensive comedy, 451 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,080 S2: which is a strange kind of label in itself that 452 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:42,280 S2: could probably be unpacked. 453 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:44,080 S1: Yeah, I think we've just discussed like, half a dozen 454 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,110 S1: shows that are more edgy than Seinfeld ever was as well. 455 00:20:47,109 --> 00:20:49,480 S2: Yeah, for sure. Curb really is. And I know you 456 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,090 S2: mentioned this, Thomas Curb really is an example of someone 457 00:20:52,090 --> 00:20:54,100 S2: who is, you know, with Larry David, I think he's 458 00:20:54,100 --> 00:20:57,669 S2: 76 now who is still making comedy. That is hitting 459 00:20:57,670 --> 00:20:59,650 S2: the mark in this day and age. So I don't 460 00:20:59,650 --> 00:21:02,710 S2: think it's just about people being I don't think it's 461 00:21:02,710 --> 00:21:05,530 S2: about comedy changing as much as it is about certain 462 00:21:05,530 --> 00:21:08,889 S2: comedians not changing in response to kind of the world 463 00:21:08,890 --> 00:21:09,790 S2: around them. 464 00:21:09,790 --> 00:21:11,860 S3: It is funny, though, how he makes the point, and 465 00:21:11,859 --> 00:21:16,210 S3: I guess this really, like contextualizes Jerry a lot. He 466 00:21:16,210 --> 00:21:18,129 S3: makes the point in the interview that, you know, or 467 00:21:18,130 --> 00:21:20,680 S3: he's kind of big point is that comedy and sitcoms 468 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,320 S3: are dying because there are no new sitcoms in this 469 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,080 S3: fall schedule in America on the four kind of major 470 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,770 S3: networks over there. But of course, like, who cares about that? 471 00:21:29,770 --> 00:21:32,440 S3: Like four networks, like, everyone watches stuff on streaming now 472 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:34,810 S3: like that. You know, the fact that there's no new 473 00:21:34,810 --> 00:21:38,260 S3: NBC comedy or anything on CBS or that would be like, 474 00:21:38,260 --> 00:21:40,389 S3: you know, in Australia when we, you know, do the 475 00:21:40,390 --> 00:21:42,700 S3: upfronts at all of our major networks. And very often 476 00:21:42,700 --> 00:21:45,310 S3: the conversation is around like, well, there are so few 477 00:21:45,310 --> 00:21:48,969 S3: new original dramas on like seven, nine, ten. That would 478 00:21:48,970 --> 00:21:50,980 S3: be like us being like, oh my God, dramas are dead. 479 00:21:50,980 --> 00:21:53,170 S3: When in reality, like all of the best stuff that's 480 00:21:53,170 --> 00:21:57,399 S3: being commissioned and the new stuff is happening on like Stan, Netflix, Amazon, binge, 481 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,040 S3: like that's where the new commission is happening. Not the 482 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:01,780 S3: major like free to air networks. 483 00:22:01,930 --> 00:22:04,030 S1: Yeah. I mean, clearly Jerry is not aware of Young Sheldon, 484 00:22:04,030 --> 00:22:06,550 S1: which I think is killing it on one of these networks. 485 00:22:06,550 --> 00:22:08,860 S1: But yeah, yeah, I think that's a whole other part 486 00:22:08,859 --> 00:22:10,510 S1: to this conversation, which I think we're going to have 487 00:22:10,510 --> 00:22:13,150 S1: in a bit more detail around our chat about mid television. 488 00:22:13,150 --> 00:22:15,340 S1: But we've talked about it before as well in the show, 489 00:22:15,340 --> 00:22:18,189 S1: the structures of how TV works now, it's just so 490 00:22:18,190 --> 00:22:21,550 S1: fundamentally different, like networks or people who have money and 491 00:22:21,550 --> 00:22:25,780 S1: commissioning TV shows aren't reliant on 30 episode runs of 492 00:22:25,780 --> 00:22:29,590 S1: 20 minute sitcoms that have advertising partners that bring in 493 00:22:29,590 --> 00:22:32,140 S1: all the revenue. That's just not how the TV model 494 00:22:32,140 --> 00:22:34,659 S1: works anymore. And I think, you know, I think maybe 495 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,120 S1: in some ways that's bad, but I think in other 496 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:40,479 S1: ways it's led to an explosion in the kinds of 497 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,510 S1: creators who were never allowed to make those big network 498 00:22:43,510 --> 00:22:46,300 S1: sitcoms make smaller shows for streaming, and have them land 499 00:22:46,300 --> 00:22:48,790 S1: like Atlanta is a show that just would not have 500 00:22:48,790 --> 00:22:52,780 S1: existed in an era of network dominated comedies. Shows like 501 00:22:52,780 --> 00:22:54,879 S1: Dave are the same. There's all these shows that maybe 502 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,580 S1: they'll commissioned by HBO or FX, but they really found 503 00:22:57,580 --> 00:23:01,300 S1: their audiences online rather on late night TV. And yeah, 504 00:23:01,300 --> 00:23:04,930 S1: I think that's probably a way bigger factor in why 505 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:10,090 S1: TV comedies look different now than this society wide fear 506 00:23:10,090 --> 00:23:12,850 S1: of saying the wrong thing. But like I said, I 507 00:23:12,850 --> 00:23:16,480 S1: do think that there is a risk adverse nature. Probably 508 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:20,959 S1: more so, I think, from. Then from young comics and 509 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,420 S1: comedy writers. So I think are trying to find ways 510 00:23:23,420 --> 00:23:26,540 S1: to talk about edgy, for lack of a better term, 511 00:23:26,540 --> 00:23:29,150 S1: ideas in a way that is interesting and provocative and 512 00:23:29,150 --> 00:23:30,199 S1: genuinely funny. 513 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,600 S2: Yeah. And I think that is where you set the 514 00:23:32,630 --> 00:23:35,120 S2: you separate the curds from the way, if that is 515 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,119 S2: what you do with the curds and the way where 516 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:42,050 S2: you like being a proper artist, making something. 517 00:23:42,410 --> 00:23:43,490 S6: Yeah. I don't know what either. 518 00:23:43,490 --> 00:23:44,209 S1: Curds are way off. 519 00:23:44,210 --> 00:23:47,090 S2: Frankly, I believe you separate them. Um, I guess my 520 00:23:47,090 --> 00:23:51,320 S2: point is where you separate true artists from the kind 521 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:52,129 S2: of the chaff. 522 00:23:52,130 --> 00:23:55,580 S6: If the 17th century. 523 00:23:56,660 --> 00:24:01,010 S2: From old London town. Um, because I do think true 524 00:24:01,010 --> 00:24:04,790 S2: art has to press upon the boundaries of the world. 525 00:24:04,790 --> 00:24:07,429 S2: It is made in like that's part of its job. Right? 526 00:24:07,430 --> 00:24:09,590 S2: And I do think it takes a certain kind of 527 00:24:09,590 --> 00:24:11,780 S2: person to be brave enough to do that. And like 528 00:24:11,780 --> 00:24:14,030 S2: art is about being brave. So yeah, I think there's 529 00:24:14,030 --> 00:24:16,879 S2: a lot of artists who probably aren't brave enough to 530 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:18,889 S2: do that. But then every so often you get someone 531 00:24:18,890 --> 00:24:20,810 S2: who is and they do jump out. People like the 532 00:24:20,810 --> 00:24:22,429 S2: creator of Dave or some of the other shows that 533 00:24:22,430 --> 00:24:25,699 S2: we've mentioned where they are willing to cop the consequences. 534 00:24:25,700 --> 00:24:28,160 S3: It seems to me that having like, read about this 535 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,170 S3: and spoken to lots of people, that the the generally 536 00:24:30,170 --> 00:24:32,929 S3: like sensible take. Is that what Jerry saying is a 537 00:24:32,930 --> 00:24:35,540 S3: bit crazy, and it definitely shouldn't probably be coming from him. 538 00:24:35,540 --> 00:24:38,000 S3: One of the most powerful people in comedy. But there 539 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,310 S3: was a little kernel of truth, and especially some of 540 00:24:40,310 --> 00:24:43,010 S3: the stuff about that, like being, you know, like jokes 541 00:24:43,010 --> 00:24:46,460 S3: by committee, being the end of comedy and scripts or 542 00:24:46,460 --> 00:24:48,679 S3: comedic ideas going to all these different hands at an 543 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,680 S3: executive level, which kind of renders the comedy dead and buried. 544 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:53,810 S3: And it seems like people kind of connect it to 545 00:24:53,810 --> 00:24:57,410 S3: that idea. So while the framing and execution and maybe 546 00:24:57,410 --> 00:24:59,990 S3: the broader argument that Jerry was making, people are like, oh, 547 00:24:59,990 --> 00:25:02,330 S3: I don't know, there was something that struck a chord 548 00:25:02,330 --> 00:25:05,000 S3: with people. So I guess, like, therein lies whatever's going 549 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,369 S3: on right now. People are like, we don't fully agree 550 00:25:07,369 --> 00:25:10,310 S3: with you. But also there is a general feeling that 551 00:25:10,310 --> 00:25:13,880 S3: perhaps this risk adverse nature is hamstringing comedy a little bit. 552 00:25:23,020 --> 00:25:25,390 S1: All right, well, we've got another interesting conversation coming up 553 00:25:25,390 --> 00:25:27,910 S1: about the state of television more generally. But why don't 554 00:25:27,910 --> 00:25:30,820 S1: we take a bit of a detour to talk about 555 00:25:30,820 --> 00:25:33,430 S1: brand new movie? Movies are out, guys. There are new 556 00:25:33,430 --> 00:25:36,100 S1: ones coming out. This one is out literally today. It 557 00:25:36,100 --> 00:25:38,770 S1: stars Anne Hathaway. It's called the idea of you. 558 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,290 S7: How did you guys meet? We need to know the story. 559 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:41,950 S7: We met at. 560 00:25:41,950 --> 00:25:47,060 UU: Coachella. Hi. Hi. 561 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:48,140 S8: This is your trailer? 562 00:25:48,170 --> 00:25:51,230 S9: Yeah, I'm in the band performing on the main stage. 563 00:25:51,260 --> 00:25:52,340 S8: August moon. Yeah. 564 00:25:53,420 --> 00:25:54,680 S10: I met someone tonight. 565 00:25:54,830 --> 00:25:57,680 S1: It's based on a book by the American actress Robin Lahue. 566 00:25:57,710 --> 00:26:00,140 S1: I'd never heard of before, but apparently she's in, like, 567 00:26:00,140 --> 00:26:03,980 S1: the latter 250 Shades films. And this is her debut 568 00:26:03,980 --> 00:26:06,530 S1: book she wrote. The film is written and directed by 569 00:26:06,530 --> 00:26:09,170 S1: Michael Showalter, who's a very experienced hand when it comes 570 00:26:09,170 --> 00:26:11,659 S1: to comedy and romcoms. He directed The Big Sick and 571 00:26:11,660 --> 00:26:15,379 S1: the Wet Hot American Summer franchise. The movie is about 572 00:26:15,380 --> 00:26:18,590 S1: Anne Hathaway's character. Celine is a 40 year old single mum. 573 00:26:18,590 --> 00:26:21,500 S1: She takes her daughter and her friends to Coachella, where 574 00:26:21,500 --> 00:26:24,770 S1: they've got VIP passes to meet the members of a 575 00:26:24,770 --> 00:26:27,680 S1: fictional boy band, which is a pretty obvious One Direction 576 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:29,870 S1: stand in. A daughter and her friends are really busy 577 00:26:29,869 --> 00:26:33,560 S1: watching Saint Vincent, as you do at Coachella, and Celine 578 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,350 S1: has a run in with one of the members of 579 00:26:36,350 --> 00:26:39,500 S1: the band, a young man called Haze Campbell, played by 580 00:26:39,500 --> 00:26:44,660 S1: Nicholas Galitzine from Red, White and Royal Blue and Bottoms fame. 581 00:26:44,660 --> 00:26:48,050 S1: They have this meet cute. They fall for each other. Basically, 582 00:26:48,050 --> 00:26:50,180 S1: what follows are the ups and downs of a love 583 00:26:50,180 --> 00:26:53,420 S1: affair between a single mum and a 24 year old 584 00:26:53,420 --> 00:26:54,980 S1: British pop star. Do you remember. 585 00:26:54,980 --> 00:26:56,840 S9: Me? But we met in Coachella. 586 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:58,670 S8: Yes, I remember you well. 587 00:26:58,670 --> 00:27:00,619 S9: I desperately need some artwork. 588 00:27:01,130 --> 00:27:04,450 UU: Why don't we start in the back? I like. These 589 00:27:04,690 --> 00:27:06,220 UU: are fantastic. 590 00:27:06,250 --> 00:27:09,310 S8: This piece is from my friend Sarah. What's it called? 591 00:27:09,730 --> 00:27:10,600 S8: Unclose me. 592 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:12,639 S9: What do you feel when you look at it? 593 00:27:14,500 --> 00:27:15,430 S8: Everything. 594 00:27:16,390 --> 00:27:21,010 S1: Now, this movie on the surface, doesn't feel like a 595 00:27:21,010 --> 00:27:25,810 S1: necessarily very hefty or complicated story. It's a little bit frothy, 596 00:27:25,810 --> 00:27:28,240 S1: but I got to say, I had a really fun 597 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,300 S1: time with this one. It landed for me in the 598 00:27:31,300 --> 00:27:34,449 S1: anyone but you sort of frame, but I think it's better. 599 00:27:34,450 --> 00:27:36,250 S1: I think this is like a genuinely quite a well 600 00:27:36,250 --> 00:27:39,610 S1: written and well directed film. I think Anne Hathaway probably 601 00:27:39,609 --> 00:27:43,149 S1: elevated a lot for me. I think she's like moments 602 00:27:43,150 --> 00:27:47,350 S1: where she's like crying and really acting. And Nicholas Galitzine, 603 00:27:47,350 --> 00:27:49,720 S1: who I liked in everything he's done before, he's like 604 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,960 S1: a little bit one note, but he brings enough to this, 605 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,210 S1: and the movie ends up being a bit more interesting 606 00:27:55,210 --> 00:27:57,580 S1: than just this frothy rom com. It's a bit about, 607 00:27:57,580 --> 00:28:00,640 S1: you know, the weight of fame on a young star 608 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,699 S1: and the expectations of a woman in her 40s who 609 00:28:03,700 --> 00:28:05,830 S1: was a single mom, and whether she can date and 610 00:28:05,830 --> 00:28:10,189 S1: have a good time. And the ending was. Less predictable 611 00:28:10,190 --> 00:28:11,780 S1: than I expected it to be. So I had a 612 00:28:11,780 --> 00:28:13,580 S1: really good time with this film and would recommend it. 613 00:28:13,609 --> 00:28:16,010 S1: How did you guys feel about the idea of you? 614 00:28:16,460 --> 00:28:18,980 S2: Yeah, I definitely would have watched this on the plane 615 00:28:18,980 --> 00:28:22,700 S2: if if it was an option available. Yeah, I agree 616 00:28:22,700 --> 00:28:26,120 S2: with you largely, but one thing that really bothered me 617 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,330 S2: was the worst part of this was the actual romantic 618 00:28:29,330 --> 00:28:31,190 S2: part of it. Oh, really? Yeah. 619 00:28:31,190 --> 00:28:34,010 S3: I just you didn't Melwas texted me yesterday being like, 620 00:28:34,010 --> 00:28:35,330 S3: this is so unbelievable. 621 00:28:35,330 --> 00:28:38,270 S2: Soul and Hayes I just could not they just I 622 00:28:38,270 --> 00:28:41,030 S2: could not understand what they liked about each other. Like, 623 00:28:41,030 --> 00:28:42,680 S2: I don't think they showed enough. 624 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:44,810 S1: Super hot. And he's super hot. 625 00:28:44,900 --> 00:28:48,350 S2: Yeah, but I didn't even really get like the chemistry 626 00:28:48,350 --> 00:28:51,530 S2: didn't seem real. They didn't have any kind of intellectual collection. He, like, 627 00:28:51,530 --> 00:28:54,530 S2: hates her art and what she believes in. They didn't 628 00:28:54,530 --> 00:28:57,920 S2: really have any emotional connection like the most emotion we showed. 629 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,400 S2: I just didn't believe that they actually really liked each 630 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,530 S2: other and that their chemistry was there. And like, I 631 00:29:03,530 --> 00:29:05,900 S2: thought it was so funny. He was wearing like a 632 00:29:05,900 --> 00:29:08,480 S2: hat at one stage. That said, simple on top of it, 633 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,100 S2: and I was like, that is what you are. You 634 00:29:10,100 --> 00:29:12,560 S2: are very simple. And then another I don't know if 635 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,810 S2: the show was being self-referential, but he also said, I'm 636 00:29:14,810 --> 00:29:17,030 S2: just English works a charm. And I was like, that's 637 00:29:17,030 --> 00:29:19,610 S2: all you are. There's just I did not buy it. 638 00:29:19,610 --> 00:29:24,230 S1: She is sick of fuckboy loser men, including her ex-husband, 639 00:29:24,230 --> 00:29:27,380 S1: who literally cheated on her, and she thinks this young 640 00:29:27,380 --> 00:29:30,350 S1: guy who is a young pop star is another one 641 00:29:30,350 --> 00:29:32,780 S1: of these fellows. But turns out he's actually really smart 642 00:29:32,780 --> 00:29:34,610 S1: and really interesting and really nice and really handsome. And 643 00:29:34,610 --> 00:29:36,620 S1: she's like, God, you know what? I don't need some 644 00:29:36,620 --> 00:29:39,830 S1: loser who thinks he's actually great and progressive and cool. 645 00:29:39,830 --> 00:29:42,860 S1: You're actually just like a nice, simple English guy who 646 00:29:42,860 --> 00:29:44,900 S1: seems way nicer than he should be because he's a 647 00:29:44,900 --> 00:29:45,560 S1: pop star. 648 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,950 S2: Sorry. He's not smart, though. He walked into the art store. He's. 649 00:29:48,950 --> 00:29:50,870 S2: This is meant to be some profound artist, and he's like, 650 00:29:50,870 --> 00:29:53,600 S2: what is art about? What does it all mean? And 651 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,150 S2: then he goes, and he buys all her art because 652 00:29:56,150 --> 00:29:58,280 S2: he's so rich to show off his wealth that he 653 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,650 S2: can just buy out her gallery, her life's work in 654 00:30:00,650 --> 00:30:02,780 S2: one go. And we're meant to think that that's like 655 00:30:02,780 --> 00:30:05,630 S2: an attractive move, but I will. Aside from Hayes, I 656 00:30:05,630 --> 00:30:08,750 S2: will agree with you. Anne Hathaway carried this like, completely 657 00:30:08,750 --> 00:30:10,400 S2: carried it the best parts of it were when he 658 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:11,900 S2: was not in it, and she was dealing with the 659 00:30:11,900 --> 00:30:14,240 S2: repercussions of like a normal civilian being caught up in 660 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,300 S2: a media storm, dealing with the kind of the perception 661 00:30:17,300 --> 00:30:19,520 S2: of a cougar like and all of that. That was 662 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,700 S2: definitely the best part. He was not necessarily necessary at all. 663 00:30:22,700 --> 00:30:24,440 S2: I didn't buy it. I would have had far less 664 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:25,880 S2: of him, far more of an. 665 00:30:26,060 --> 00:30:27,710 S6: I can't believe like six weeks. 666 00:30:27,710 --> 00:30:29,900 S3: Off hasn't been able to warm up your cold, dead. 667 00:30:29,900 --> 00:30:30,320 S6: Heart. 668 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:31,459 S2: Did you really think they had it? 669 00:30:31,460 --> 00:30:32,840 S6: Why would you? I thought this to him. 670 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,060 S3: I thought this movie was really fun. I definitely don't 671 00:30:35,060 --> 00:30:37,760 S3: think it's in the ballpark of anyone. But you agree? It's. 672 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:38,150 S3: It's you. 673 00:30:38,150 --> 00:30:39,830 S1: Guys. Anyone but you is better than this. 674 00:30:39,980 --> 00:30:41,870 S6: Way better. Way better. Interesting. I feel like. 675 00:30:41,870 --> 00:30:44,390 S2: It's more knowing this wasn't knowing enough for me. 676 00:30:44,390 --> 00:30:46,760 S3: I just think this feels way more designed for like 677 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,940 S3: a streamer, whereas this is like proper mid. Whereas anyone 678 00:30:49,940 --> 00:30:53,090 S3: but you felt like a proper old school rom com film, 679 00:30:53,090 --> 00:30:54,770 S3: but they're both really good and I can see why 680 00:30:54,770 --> 00:30:56,660 S3: they're in the conversation together. And I can see also 681 00:30:56,660 --> 00:30:59,150 S3: why they're being both like part of the chat about 682 00:30:59,150 --> 00:31:02,180 S3: the return of rom coms. Like it was a fun movie. 683 00:31:02,180 --> 00:31:05,240 S3: I thought Anne Hathaway was great. Um, and I definitely 684 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,300 S3: thought the chemistry was like, you know, this tapped into 685 00:31:08,300 --> 00:31:10,460 S3: so many like, rom com devices, like the, you know, 686 00:31:10,460 --> 00:31:12,800 S3: it was like a reverse Notting Hill where she's a 687 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,290 S3: civilian and he's famous. Then there was like the age 688 00:31:15,290 --> 00:31:17,900 S3: gap romance, and it kind of navigated those things really well. 689 00:31:17,900 --> 00:31:20,930 S3: And she, they set up so well. Why a woman 690 00:31:20,930 --> 00:31:23,300 S3: like her, this 40 year old single mom who has like, 691 00:31:23,300 --> 00:31:24,739 S3: you know, we saw her sitting on the couch, like 692 00:31:24,740 --> 00:31:27,440 S3: swiping through apps, looking at these people, these like sad 693 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,170 S3: options that are available to her. You can see why 694 00:31:30,170 --> 00:31:33,320 S3: she may actually pursue an opportunity like this should it 695 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,780 S3: come up. Whereas and also, I would catch all of 696 00:31:35,780 --> 00:31:37,760 S3: this with when you watch a rom com, the first 697 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:39,830 S3: rule is that you have to suspend disbelief because like, 698 00:31:39,860 --> 00:31:41,540 S3: of course this shit is going to be a little 699 00:31:41,570 --> 00:31:42,440 S3: bit like stretched. 700 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,780 S1: I know, I totally, yeah, totally. I mean, like Notting Hill, 701 00:31:44,780 --> 00:31:46,400 S1: a great movie, probably one of the best rom coms 702 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,830 S1: ever made. And this has been called a reverse Notting 703 00:31:48,830 --> 00:31:51,710 S1: Hill for the obvious reasons of who's the famous one. 704 00:31:51,710 --> 00:31:54,620 S1: That also makes no sense. Like, why does she love 705 00:31:54,620 --> 00:31:57,410 S1: Hugh Grant? Like, why does Hugh Grant not know who 706 00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,180 S1: the biggest movie star in the world is like? Doesn't 707 00:31:59,180 --> 00:32:00,170 S1: make any sense. 708 00:32:00,170 --> 00:32:03,020 S2: Yeah, it's not so much the believability of the concept. 709 00:32:03,020 --> 00:32:05,120 S2: I know you have to postpone that. It's just like 710 00:32:05,270 --> 00:32:08,480 S2: you never saw them having any kind of. I never 711 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,310 S2: understood what their relationship was. You think. 712 00:32:10,310 --> 00:32:11,000 S6: They didn't have real. 713 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:11,660 S1: Chemistry. 714 00:32:11,660 --> 00:32:13,070 S2: Like when they were at. 715 00:32:13,340 --> 00:32:14,360 S6: What about when she having. 716 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,320 S2: Dinner in Paris or Italy and he says he's like, 717 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,660 S2: are you having a good time? And she says, we. 718 00:32:20,660 --> 00:32:23,450 S2: And he's like, hahahahaha! And I was like, that's your 719 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,450 S2: that's like it. That is what you laugh about. 720 00:32:26,450 --> 00:32:26,930 S6: What about when she. 721 00:32:26,930 --> 00:32:28,430 S3: Rocks up at his hotel and she's like, got that 722 00:32:28,430 --> 00:32:29,900 S3: nice dress on. And he's like. 723 00:32:29,900 --> 00:32:31,640 S2: Well, that also didn't fully make sense to me. How 724 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,570 S2: she suddenly embraced overnight her her inner sexy lady and 725 00:32:35,570 --> 00:32:37,520 S2: was all of a sudden a seductress, I. 726 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,440 S1: Think I think one of the things that surprised me 727 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,770 S1: about this movie, we've been talking about movies like challenges, 728 00:32:42,860 --> 00:32:45,830 S1: anyone but you was bringing kind of sex back to cinema. 729 00:32:45,830 --> 00:32:48,500 S1: I thought this movie was, like, more explicitly sexy than 730 00:32:48,500 --> 00:32:51,350 S1: either of those movies. The scene where they kind of 731 00:32:51,350 --> 00:32:55,160 S1: first hook up, where he's playing her, the song on 732 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,380 S1: the piano like that was that was that was real 733 00:32:57,380 --> 00:32:59,510 S1: chemistry that that was great. I thought. 734 00:32:59,900 --> 00:33:02,600 S3: Yeah, I mean, Osmond and I get chemistry. Yeah. 735 00:33:03,980 --> 00:33:04,730 S6: Can I also. 736 00:33:04,730 --> 00:33:07,070 S2: Say one thing that I really I struggled with too 737 00:33:07,070 --> 00:33:09,680 S2: was her daughter looked about the same. Ages her and 738 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:11,930 S2: like I could not figure it out. She was at Coachella, 739 00:33:11,930 --> 00:33:14,120 S2: but then she was like at some cute school camp. 740 00:33:14,150 --> 00:33:15,470 S6: School camp. It's like, is this kid? 741 00:33:15,620 --> 00:33:17,420 S1: Is this kid 12 or 18? Yeah. 742 00:33:17,420 --> 00:33:18,050 S6: And look, and if. 743 00:33:18,050 --> 00:33:20,960 S1: There is one unbelievable part of it, I mean, Anne Hathaway, like, 744 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,930 S1: without getting weird about it, she looks incredible, right? And 745 00:33:23,930 --> 00:33:26,660 S1: there's this bit where she's, like, hanging out with these, like, 746 00:33:26,660 --> 00:33:29,570 S1: younger women who are the girlfriends of the other members 747 00:33:29,570 --> 00:33:32,180 S1: of the band. And she's like, oh, they're all wearing bikinis. 748 00:33:32,180 --> 00:33:33,709 S1: And I feel really uncomfortable. So I'm going to wear 749 00:33:33,710 --> 00:33:36,620 S1: this one piece and it's like Anne Hathaway, like, you know, 750 00:33:36,620 --> 00:33:40,100 S1: you are sure you're like a slightly older at 40 751 00:33:40,100 --> 00:33:42,170 S1: and you're playing a single mom, but like, you were 752 00:33:42,170 --> 00:33:46,790 S1: not unconventionally, you know, a very conventionally attractive person. But 753 00:33:46,790 --> 00:33:49,010 S1: I guess maybe part of what the movie is trying 754 00:33:49,010 --> 00:33:52,070 S1: to say is like, these are these insecurities that that 755 00:33:52,070 --> 00:33:53,990 S1: hit women at a certain age and a certain stage 756 00:33:53,990 --> 00:33:54,350 S1: of life. 757 00:33:54,350 --> 00:33:55,880 S2: I found out more about them. 758 00:33:56,090 --> 00:33:59,750 S1: I found the, um, Wikipedia like subsection for this film 759 00:33:59,750 --> 00:34:03,020 S1: to be very, very, very funny. It has these two hilarious, 760 00:34:03,020 --> 00:34:06,770 S1: like juxtaposed sentences. Grazia described the film as being based 761 00:34:06,770 --> 00:34:10,549 S1: on Harry styles fan fiction. Vogue described the plot as 762 00:34:10,550 --> 00:34:14,000 S1: a socio cultural commentary about aging and a woman's worth. 763 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,520 S1: And I'm like, I guess the movie's literally both of 764 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,250 S1: those things and kind of a decent job of both 765 00:34:19,250 --> 00:34:20,000 S1: of those things. 766 00:34:20,300 --> 00:34:23,060 S2: Yeah, I mean, also, the more when I couldn't quite 767 00:34:23,060 --> 00:34:26,090 S2: figure out why they were together, the and then I 768 00:34:26,090 --> 00:34:27,440 S2: was like, so what's going on here? And then I 769 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,360 S2: was like, it's quite clear really, if you wanted to 770 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,750 S2: pathologize them, she's trying to recapture the youth she never 771 00:34:32,750 --> 00:34:35,270 S2: had because she had kids too early. And he's got 772 00:34:35,270 --> 00:34:37,850 S2: mommy issues. Right, that they explain. So I was like, 773 00:34:37,850 --> 00:34:38,690 S2: maybe that's what. 774 00:34:38,930 --> 00:34:40,069 S6: Is also going on in the movie. 775 00:34:40,070 --> 00:34:41,000 S1: That's in the text. 776 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,700 S2: Well, it's like not very low. 777 00:34:43,850 --> 00:34:46,520 S6: I think she's slipping. Yeah, I think. 778 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:48,470 S1: The script is um, I think the script is interesting. 779 00:34:48,469 --> 00:34:51,080 S1: I think there's a lot of layers of complexity, and 780 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,779 S1: maybe it doesn't all work out, because ultimately you can 781 00:34:53,780 --> 00:34:55,970 S1: see maybe the writers are trying to make this a 782 00:34:55,969 --> 00:34:59,089 S1: little bit more of a meditation, all of these ideas. 783 00:34:59,090 --> 00:35:02,960 S1: But then Amazon's like guys, you've got like $20 million. 784 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,210 S1: Just shoot this thing in a weekend. Let's get this 785 00:35:05,210 --> 00:35:07,850 S1: on the planes and on streamers. Let's go. You know 786 00:35:07,850 --> 00:35:09,170 S1: so it's a bit of a tension there. 787 00:35:09,870 --> 00:35:12,780 S2: Yeah, I think so. And I mean, I do think 788 00:35:12,780 --> 00:35:14,130 S2: it was speaking of that, it is a bit of 789 00:35:14,130 --> 00:35:16,110 S2: a mish mash of those two tones, isn't it, the 790 00:35:16,110 --> 00:35:18,420 S2: rom com and then the kind of quite serious study 791 00:35:18,420 --> 00:35:20,160 S2: of Anne Hathaway's character. 792 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:20,430 S6: Yeah. 793 00:35:20,430 --> 00:35:23,250 S3: It had like I think it had very like commendable 794 00:35:23,250 --> 00:35:26,160 S3: aspirations to be something great. And it ended up being 795 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:27,150 S3: something pretty good. 796 00:35:27,420 --> 00:35:29,730 S1: Well, I mean, you could say that makes it a 797 00:35:29,730 --> 00:35:34,980 S1: perfect case study of what we call mid tier streaming content. 798 00:35:34,980 --> 00:35:38,130 S1: It's fine. It's entertaining, it's not bad, but it's not 799 00:35:38,130 --> 00:35:42,089 S1: really transcendent either. And that kind of mid TV was 800 00:35:42,090 --> 00:35:44,669 S1: the focus of a piece written by the New York 801 00:35:44,670 --> 00:35:48,480 S1: Times chief TV critic James Poniewozik. He opened the piece 802 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,140 S1: by talking about Donald Glover and Maya Erskine, who wrote 803 00:35:52,140 --> 00:35:56,040 S1: and starred in Atlanta and Pen15, respectively, two pretty elite, 804 00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:00,330 S1: boundary pushing, critically acclaimed shows. And this year they both 805 00:36:00,330 --> 00:36:04,020 S1: performed together in the Mr. and Mrs. Smith TV series reboot, 806 00:36:04,020 --> 00:36:07,140 S1: which James says was fine but, you know, best suited 807 00:36:07,140 --> 00:36:12,570 S1: to airplane watching something Mel would probably agree with, uh, 808 00:36:12,570 --> 00:36:15,030 S1: rather than the kind of like detailed viewing that a 809 00:36:15,030 --> 00:36:17,040 S1: show like Atlanta commands. You don't really want to watch 810 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:18,540 S1: it on a plane. You want to sit down and 811 00:36:18,540 --> 00:36:21,060 S1: think about it and really enjoy what Donald Glover is 812 00:36:21,060 --> 00:36:22,830 S1: trying to say. He goes on to talk about a 813 00:36:22,830 --> 00:36:26,340 S1: bunch of shows like The Diplomat, hijack, Ozark, none of 814 00:36:26,340 --> 00:36:28,410 S1: which are bad, but none of which are really going 815 00:36:28,410 --> 00:36:31,620 S1: to be shows that we discuss in years down the track, 816 00:36:31,620 --> 00:36:34,140 S1: even though they all star like very famous people. There's 817 00:36:34,140 --> 00:36:36,030 S1: a lot of killer quotes in this piece, but this 818 00:36:36,030 --> 00:36:38,730 S1: one really stood out to me. TV was so highly 819 00:36:38,730 --> 00:36:41,490 S1: acclaimed for so long that we were like the frog 820 00:36:41,489 --> 00:36:44,820 S1: in boiling water, but in reverse. The medium became lukewarm 821 00:36:44,820 --> 00:36:48,270 S1: so gradually that you might not even have noticed. And 822 00:36:48,270 --> 00:36:51,060 S1: I found that a really interesting way to describe how 823 00:36:51,060 --> 00:36:53,760 S1: quickly we seem to have gone from, wow, TV is 824 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,130 S1: better than it's ever been. There are so many stars, 825 00:36:56,130 --> 00:36:58,740 S1: there are so many budgets. This is replaced. Cinema is 826 00:36:58,739 --> 00:37:03,570 S1: like the predominant form of high quality visual entertainment to 827 00:37:03,570 --> 00:37:06,960 S1: oh yeah, Anne Hathaway movies. Okay, this Idris Elba Apple 828 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,260 S1: show is okay. It feels like a topic we talk 829 00:37:10,260 --> 00:37:12,839 S1: about on this show pretty regularly. We talk about all 830 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:14,489 S1: these new shows every month. Some of them are fun, 831 00:37:14,489 --> 00:37:17,310 S1: some of them are entertaining, but we end up kind 832 00:37:17,310 --> 00:37:19,110 S1: of agreeing that none of them are really going to 833 00:37:19,110 --> 00:37:23,609 S1: break through in the way shows like succession did a 834 00:37:23,610 --> 00:37:26,310 S1: year ago. Do you guys agree with the premise of 835 00:37:26,310 --> 00:37:29,370 S1: this piece? Are we living in a mid TV era? 836 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,530 S3: Yeah, I think so. I mean, how often have the 837 00:37:32,530 --> 00:37:35,739 S3: three of us had a conversation where we desperately crave 838 00:37:35,739 --> 00:37:40,000 S3: another succession or we, you know, discuss how rare something 839 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,120 S3: like the bear is? I do think that it's been 840 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,489 S3: like a whole bunch of factors that have led to this. 841 00:37:45,489 --> 00:37:47,710 S3: And I know, Mel, you hate calling anything like, you 842 00:37:47,860 --> 00:37:49,750 S3: don't like the label prestige, you don't like peak, you 843 00:37:49,750 --> 00:37:52,300 S3: don't like mid. But I do think that what, you 844 00:37:52,300 --> 00:37:54,670 S3: know was kind of deemed the golden age of TV, 845 00:37:54,670 --> 00:37:57,490 S3: with all of these movie stars rushing to do TV 846 00:37:57,489 --> 00:38:00,370 S3: shows and the production value skyrocketing and and them earning 847 00:38:00,370 --> 00:38:03,670 S3: more money. So more and more, um, movie stars traditionally 848 00:38:03,670 --> 00:38:06,100 S3: were keen to do these. You then found yourself in 849 00:38:06,100 --> 00:38:09,129 S3: this kind of like glut of TV shows starring really 850 00:38:09,130 --> 00:38:11,980 S3: big names, with all these different streaming services offering all 851 00:38:11,980 --> 00:38:14,230 S3: these different shows, and everyone's kind of like siloed off 852 00:38:14,230 --> 00:38:16,930 S3: from each other, because not everyone has every streaming service 853 00:38:16,930 --> 00:38:19,540 S3: and there's just like a constant output, which means like 854 00:38:19,540 --> 00:38:22,210 S3: the quality goes down. And, you know, he makes the 855 00:38:22,210 --> 00:38:24,609 S3: point in this article, which I think is really interesting, 856 00:38:24,610 --> 00:38:26,950 S3: is that, like, you know, he uses the idol, a 857 00:38:26,950 --> 00:38:30,610 S3: show we all know and hated together, which was so fun. 858 00:38:30,610 --> 00:38:32,920 S3: But like that is such a rarity now to have 859 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,490 S3: a bad TV show because like there is just so 860 00:38:36,489 --> 00:38:39,880 S3: much mid effort going into these other shows with good 861 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,219 S3: enough people behind the cameras, good enough people in front 862 00:38:42,219 --> 00:38:44,860 S3: of the cameras and enough money that what you get 863 00:38:44,860 --> 00:38:47,830 S3: is this kind of product that is forgettable, like the 864 00:38:47,830 --> 00:38:50,799 S3: fact that, you know just this week, Nicole Kidman was, 865 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:52,810 S3: you know, honored by the American Film Institute for an 866 00:38:52,810 --> 00:38:57,040 S3: incredible career. Last year, she starred in Expats and Special 867 00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,020 S3: Ops Lioness, two shows that no one could give a 868 00:38:59,020 --> 00:39:02,500 S3: fuck about. Really? Like they're fine, but they're forgettable. And 869 00:39:02,500 --> 00:39:05,140 S3: you know, he talks about Idris Elba in Hijack this year. 870 00:39:05,140 --> 00:39:07,600 S3: We had Jodie Foster in True Detective, like these are 871 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,870 S3: all fine shows, but they just like come and go. 872 00:39:10,870 --> 00:39:13,480 S3: And then six months later you could barely tell someone 873 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:14,259 S3: what they're about. 874 00:39:14,260 --> 00:39:16,630 S2: Look, I understand what you're saying, and I don't mean 875 00:39:16,630 --> 00:39:20,200 S2: to come back being contrarian as I feel I have been, 876 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,420 S2: but man, I reckon this guy just wants to be. 877 00:39:22,420 --> 00:39:24,310 S2: And I call him. This guy is very esteemed. I 878 00:39:24,310 --> 00:39:25,750 S2: think he just wants to be in, like the Oxford 879 00:39:25,750 --> 00:39:30,010 S2: English Dictionary for coining the term mid TV. Like, that's 880 00:39:30,010 --> 00:39:31,839 S2: what I reckon the play is that like critics like 881 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:36,190 S2: that love having coined a label. I don't buy the 882 00:39:36,190 --> 00:39:39,069 S2: argument or I don't buy his reasoning behind the argument. 883 00:39:39,070 --> 00:39:42,700 S2: He's reasoning is that we have a willingness to retreat, 884 00:39:42,700 --> 00:39:45,640 S2: to settle, to trade the ambitious, for the dependable. That's 885 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,000 S2: what he argues that we've become safe. And I just 886 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,210 S2: don't buy it. Of course, there are more average TV shows. 887 00:39:52,210 --> 00:39:54,850 S2: That's because we are watching so much more TV now 888 00:39:54,850 --> 00:39:57,400 S2: in Australia, I think we watch like 51 hours a month, 889 00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:59,529 S2: which is nearly two hours a day. If I've done 890 00:39:59,530 --> 00:40:03,940 S2: my my math right there. Platforms have pressure to supply 891 00:40:03,940 --> 00:40:07,060 S2: for this demand. When you're over supplying, obviously there's going 892 00:40:07,060 --> 00:40:09,790 S2: to be problems with quality. Um, and they're also having 893 00:40:09,790 --> 00:40:12,520 S2: a pressure to get people to subscribe based on the 894 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:15,430 S2: enormity of their catalogs. So yeah, we're going to have 895 00:40:15,430 --> 00:40:18,160 S2: a lot of mid-level TV. I mean, we have the 896 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,430 S2: Opal tower because we needed more houses quickly. You're like, 897 00:40:21,430 --> 00:40:23,770 S2: you know, you've got to have a lot of you've 898 00:40:23,770 --> 00:40:25,239 S2: got to have a lot of frescoes to get the 899 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:27,940 S2: Sistine Chapel. I just don't buy his point that what 900 00:40:27,940 --> 00:40:29,950 S2: it reflects. Yes, I agree there is a lot of 901 00:40:29,950 --> 00:40:33,430 S2: TV that doesn't stay the test of time, but I 902 00:40:33,430 --> 00:40:36,580 S2: don't buy his point that it's about a willingness to retreat, 903 00:40:36,580 --> 00:40:39,700 S2: because risk only exists because you have safety like it 904 00:40:39,700 --> 00:40:42,700 S2: can't exist without it, like they're in a dialogue together. 905 00:40:42,700 --> 00:40:45,100 S2: And I mean, of course, he mentions The Sopranos. You 906 00:40:45,100 --> 00:40:47,350 S2: guys who love your prestige TV chat like to mention 907 00:40:47,350 --> 00:40:52,660 S2: The Sopranos. You know what else came out in 1999? Angel, Roswell, passion, spaced, 908 00:40:52,660 --> 00:40:56,080 S2: The Lost World, popular, Bad Girls, Jack and Jill. Once 909 00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:57,970 S2: and again. Do you know any of these? Some of them. 910 00:40:57,969 --> 00:41:00,580 S2: But that's a whole lot of mid TV, right? Like 911 00:41:00,580 --> 00:41:03,160 S2: average TV has always existed. We have more of it 912 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,470 S2: now because we have more TV in general. But it 913 00:41:05,469 --> 00:41:08,319 S2: doesn't mean good TV doesn't exist. And I think like 914 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,650 S2: I think it's quite a damaging point of view and 915 00:41:11,650 --> 00:41:14,860 S2: it's quite lazy criticism to kind of just throw back 916 00:41:14,860 --> 00:41:18,400 S2: to nostalgia. They were better times because you're really not 917 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,860 S2: acknowledging all the great TV shows that we do have 918 00:41:20,860 --> 00:41:22,750 S2: now that are pushing boundaries. We mention them, some of 919 00:41:22,750 --> 00:41:25,120 S2: them before in the comedy section. But I mean, Baby 920 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,990 S2: Reindeer is another example like that is his issue is 921 00:41:28,989 --> 00:41:31,600 S2: that is baby reindeer exactly what he says. We need 922 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,480 S2: more of its original, its provocative, and its important, so 923 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:36,310 S2: to say that those shows don't exist at all, I 924 00:41:36,310 --> 00:41:37,390 S2: think is wrong. No, but. 925 00:41:37,510 --> 00:41:40,210 S3: What he's saying is that he specifically says mid TV 926 00:41:40,210 --> 00:41:42,880 S3: is not the mediocre TV of the past. It's it's 927 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,549 S3: like a level up in that we have this ecosystem 928 00:41:45,550 --> 00:41:48,130 S3: now that allows it's almost like it just like pulls 929 00:41:48,130 --> 00:41:51,610 S3: this ultimate trick on everybody. It looks good, it smells good, 930 00:41:51,610 --> 00:41:54,219 S3: the dialogue is good. And you are like kind of 931 00:41:54,219 --> 00:41:57,730 S3: fooled into thinking that Ozark is Breaking Bad, but it's not. 932 00:41:57,730 --> 00:41:59,589 S3: And so I think he's he's not saying there was 933 00:41:59,590 --> 00:42:02,830 S3: not mediocre TV before, but he's saying this actual concept 934 00:42:02,830 --> 00:42:06,190 S3: of mid where we are fooled into thinking something is 935 00:42:06,190 --> 00:42:09,040 S3: perhaps better than it is, or we've become like conditioned 936 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:10,750 S3: to just be like, oh, this is all a pretty 937 00:42:10,750 --> 00:42:14,649 S3: good is kind of specific to an environment that has 938 00:42:14,650 --> 00:42:17,140 S3: come about as a result of the golden age of TV, 939 00:42:17,140 --> 00:42:20,260 S3: bringing a whole bunch of big names into the mix and, 940 00:42:20,260 --> 00:42:22,330 S3: you know, streamers having more money to spend but needing 941 00:42:22,330 --> 00:42:24,609 S3: to spend more money to produce more content. And so 942 00:42:24,610 --> 00:42:28,779 S3: we have entered into a particular time where, like, everything 943 00:42:28,780 --> 00:42:31,050 S3: is just of. A similar ish level, and it maybe 944 00:42:31,050 --> 00:42:33,900 S3: goes up 5% or down 5%, but nothing like sits 945 00:42:33,900 --> 00:42:35,580 S3: at the very bottom or at the very top. 946 00:42:35,850 --> 00:42:38,190 S1: I think that like, I mean, a lot of what 947 00:42:38,190 --> 00:42:39,720 S1: you said, Mel, in fact, most of what you said, 948 00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:42,150 S1: I really agree with and I think I think one 949 00:42:42,150 --> 00:42:45,210 S1: of the important distinctions to make is that I also 950 00:42:45,210 --> 00:42:46,950 S1: agree with you, like the fundamental thing that I agree 951 00:42:46,950 --> 00:42:49,500 S1: with you on is I don't think this is mode 952 00:42:49,500 --> 00:42:53,520 S1: of TV that he's describing is reflective of us as 953 00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,640 S1: individuals wanting it or demanding it. I think there have 954 00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:00,630 S1: been quite significant structural changes to how television is made. 955 00:43:00,630 --> 00:43:03,839 S1: And like you're saying, feeding the beast that force you 956 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,830 S1: to pump out more stuff, but more stuff that seems 957 00:43:07,830 --> 00:43:10,500 S1: high quality but obviously can't be as high quality because 958 00:43:10,500 --> 00:43:12,000 S1: it has to be done a bit cheaper and a 959 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,190 S1: bit more quickly. And I think that is how I 960 00:43:14,190 --> 00:43:16,380 S1: interpreted this sort of definition of mid TV. I mean, 961 00:43:16,380 --> 00:43:18,900 S1: I think Thomas listed a bunch of those shows. Kate 962 00:43:18,900 --> 00:43:21,480 S1: Winslet is like on an HBO show called The Regime. 963 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,000 S1: Kate Winslet has been nominated for an Oscar seven times. 964 00:43:24,180 --> 00:43:27,750 S1: She's won. It's just insane that, like, we live in 965 00:43:27,750 --> 00:43:31,680 S1: an era where this is happening every month and I 966 00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:33,990 S1: guarantee you in five years from now, we will not 967 00:43:33,989 --> 00:43:36,720 S1: be talking about the regime or anything else. I think 968 00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:40,620 S1: that's sort of the kind of TV frame that I'm 969 00:43:40,620 --> 00:43:43,290 S1: interested in at this moment. And I think, yeah, I 970 00:43:43,290 --> 00:43:44,910 S1: really agree with you that it's not because I think 971 00:43:44,910 --> 00:43:47,850 S1: we as audiences aren't ready for more ideas. I think 972 00:43:47,850 --> 00:43:51,300 S1: Baby Reindeer is another amazing example of that, because that 973 00:43:51,300 --> 00:43:54,450 S1: is an interesting show that is risky, that is bold 974 00:43:54,450 --> 00:43:57,660 S1: and weird and grim, and that was a show that 975 00:43:57,660 --> 00:44:01,440 S1: was not teased by Netflix. They did not send that screeners. 976 00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,080 S1: They did not alert critics to it. They clearly just 977 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,180 S1: like bought it at some point and thought, this will 978 00:44:06,180 --> 00:44:08,040 S1: be interesting. Let's chuck it on to Feed the beast. 979 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,850 S1: But it has gone ballistic because audiences like us and 980 00:44:11,850 --> 00:44:16,319 S1: like lots of people are ready for interesting, provocative, fascinating, weird, 981 00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:19,920 S1: sometimes really dark shows. But that was an accident in 982 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,860 S1: a way. Like what these people are sitting around and, 983 00:44:22,860 --> 00:44:25,469 S1: and sort of deciding they want to commission more of 984 00:44:25,469 --> 00:44:27,930 S1: seems to be this pattern of does it have big 985 00:44:27,930 --> 00:44:31,860 S1: name star? Does it have a credible writing team? Can 986 00:44:31,890 --> 00:44:34,140 S1: we pump out eight episodes of this for less than 987 00:44:34,140 --> 00:44:36,960 S1: $10 million and then do that 12 times a year? 988 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,510 S1: I think that is what we've ended up with television. 989 00:44:39,510 --> 00:44:42,660 S1: I think streaming is a huge part of that, because 990 00:44:42,660 --> 00:44:45,600 S1: I think it makes it harder for these networks. They 991 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:47,880 S1: think this goes to this risk conversation we're having earlier. 992 00:44:48,450 --> 00:44:51,300 S1: They don't want to take a risk. Because if the 993 00:44:51,300 --> 00:44:52,920 S1: way that we all live our lives now is we 994 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,440 S1: go to work, we come home, we argue with our 995 00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:58,920 S1: partners about what to watch, and ultimately we just want 996 00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,440 S1: to make sure that there's enough new stuff on every 997 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:04,290 S1: night and every weekend to binge through a show, and 998 00:45:04,290 --> 00:45:05,580 S1: then do that again the next week and do that 999 00:45:05,580 --> 00:45:07,950 S1: again the next week. That's how we live. Then the 1000 00:45:07,950 --> 00:45:10,980 S1: goal of the streamer is to maximize the volume of 1001 00:45:10,980 --> 00:45:13,440 S1: content that is new, that's being served up at the 1002 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,370 S1: lowest possible cost. So I think it does exist not 1003 00:45:17,370 --> 00:45:19,890 S1: because we want it, but because this is where the 1004 00:45:19,890 --> 00:45:23,880 S1: economic structures of like TV production distribution have led us to. 1005 00:45:23,910 --> 00:45:26,670 S2: Yeah, I think that's very true. And I also do wonder, 1006 00:45:26,670 --> 00:45:29,370 S2: like you mentioned, baby reindeer and I'm kind of am 1007 00:45:29,370 --> 00:45:31,709 S2: quite shocked that that has been the success it has 1008 00:45:31,710 --> 00:45:34,950 S2: been globally. Um, but I do wonder too, whether we 1009 00:45:34,950 --> 00:45:36,990 S2: are in a kind of echo chamber in a way, 1010 00:45:36,989 --> 00:45:39,000 S2: in the sense of what we get out of TV 1011 00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:41,730 S2: versus what a person who doesn't work in culture or 1012 00:45:41,730 --> 00:45:44,129 S2: doesn't approach TV in the same way we do get 1013 00:45:44,130 --> 00:45:46,230 S2: out of it like it's easy to be like there's 1014 00:45:46,230 --> 00:45:48,840 S2: too much TV. But for a lot of people, the Mr. 1015 00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,240 S2: or Mrs. Smith is probably exactly what they want from 1016 00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:54,480 S2: TV and go to TV for. And of course, other 1017 00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:57,000 S2: shows like The Curse and The White Lotus will always exist. 1018 00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:59,850 S2: But a lot of people are happy with Mr. and Mrs. Smith. 1019 00:45:59,850 --> 00:46:01,410 S1: I think what worries me is that I'm not sure 1020 00:46:01,410 --> 00:46:03,660 S1: that shows like The Curse or The White Lotus will 1021 00:46:03,660 --> 00:46:05,700 S1: always exist. Like, I think, you know, one of the 1022 00:46:05,700 --> 00:46:08,460 S1: shows that I've loved the most this year, Ripley, which 1023 00:46:08,460 --> 00:46:12,660 S1: is beautiful and different and interesting, is like a legacy 1024 00:46:12,660 --> 00:46:15,420 S1: of the kind of TV that was being greenlit five 1025 00:46:15,420 --> 00:46:18,150 S1: years ago. The Sympathizer on Binge is another show that 1026 00:46:18,150 --> 00:46:20,760 S1: I think is amazing and different and bold, and it's 1027 00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,279 S1: Park Chan wook directing it, and it's awesome. Is that 1028 00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:27,029 S1: that kind of came out of the pre mid TV era, 1029 00:46:27,030 --> 00:46:29,190 S1: if that makes sense. When we were putting a lot 1030 00:46:29,190 --> 00:46:30,839 S1: more money in, a lot more thought into this craft. 1031 00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,540 S1: Like I think when we look five years from now, 1032 00:46:33,540 --> 00:46:35,460 S1: I think it's going to be way more of like 1033 00:46:35,460 --> 00:46:38,850 S1: the regime or three body problem shows that are fine, 1034 00:46:38,850 --> 00:46:42,359 S1: but just like not that extra little bit. And you know, 1035 00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:44,819 S1: you're also right. Again they're probably like what we think. 1036 00:46:44,820 --> 00:46:46,290 S1: And what we want is different to what a lot 1037 00:46:46,290 --> 00:46:48,719 S1: of people want. Like I always say, the most watched 1038 00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:51,900 S1: show in the history of television is The Big Bang Theory, right? 1039 00:46:51,900 --> 00:46:55,830 S1: Which fucking sucks. But it is also important, I think, 1040 00:46:55,830 --> 00:46:58,620 S1: as critics, to acknowledge that sometimes people just want to 1041 00:46:58,620 --> 00:47:00,900 S1: watch a dumb show because they're busy with their lives 1042 00:47:00,900 --> 00:47:02,790 S1: and they need something that they can sit down and 1043 00:47:02,790 --> 00:47:04,919 S1: watch with their families, and that's fine. And that TV 1044 00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:08,940 S1: needs to exist. But what TV can and should do 1045 00:47:08,969 --> 00:47:11,460 S1: as an art form and as a medium should be 1046 00:47:11,460 --> 00:47:15,600 S1: pushed into more interesting and progressive and, you know, I 1047 00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:18,960 S1: guess edgy, edgy ways. And that doesn't feel like there 1048 00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:24,359 S1: is that inertia within the current television universe to do 1049 00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:26,279 S1: that as much. I mean, this is a thing that 1050 00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,160 S1: I've yelled at you guys about so much before TV, 1051 00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:32,190 S1: its entire existence, and it's certainly for our entire lives, 1052 00:47:32,190 --> 00:47:35,730 S1: was shows that came out every week for like half 1053 00:47:35,730 --> 00:47:38,910 S1: the year. And you got to know characters, and you 1054 00:47:38,910 --> 00:47:42,149 S1: talked about it with your friends and new characters came 1055 00:47:42,150 --> 00:47:44,040 S1: in halfway through the season. Then you were off for 1056 00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:46,050 S1: half a season. They went back to the drawing board. 1057 00:47:46,050 --> 00:47:48,280 S1: They added new things. You lived with it for 4 1058 00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:50,070 S1: or 5, six, seven years of your life. That's what 1059 00:47:50,070 --> 00:47:52,860 S1: TV was. It wasn't movies which just came. You enjoyed 1060 00:47:52,860 --> 00:47:54,990 S1: for two hours and then it went away. You watch 1061 00:47:54,989 --> 00:47:58,440 S1: these things, you talked about these things. That's the social 1062 00:47:58,530 --> 00:48:01,650 S1: role it played in our kind of communities. And it 1063 00:48:01,650 --> 00:48:04,080 S1: is not that anymore. And it's like, well, what is 1064 00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:06,090 S1: it now? It's just like something that should be a 1065 00:48:06,090 --> 00:48:09,239 S1: movie like hijack becomes an eight part Apple TV series, 1066 00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:12,270 S1: but something that brings you together in a way that 1067 00:48:12,270 --> 00:48:17,190 S1: you can discuss and debate and watch characters grow and really, like, 1068 00:48:17,190 --> 00:48:22,350 S1: have some kind of emotional connection to largely has disappeared 1069 00:48:22,350 --> 00:48:24,930 S1: because of streaming and the and the binge mode. I 1070 00:48:24,930 --> 00:48:27,360 S1: think the binge model is responsible for a lot of this, 1071 00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:29,850 S1: because you just you can't connect to characters or story 1072 00:48:29,850 --> 00:48:31,230 S1: in a weekend the way you could over a year. 1073 00:48:31,230 --> 00:48:33,630 S1: That's just a reality of it. And maybe it's pie 1074 00:48:33,630 --> 00:48:35,340 S1: in the sky to think that we could ever return 1075 00:48:35,340 --> 00:48:39,150 S1: to that. But I think we've lost like what TV 1076 00:48:39,150 --> 00:48:42,089 S1: was for basically our entire lives. 1077 00:48:43,010 --> 00:48:45,350 S3: Yeah, but there's no way back now because the all 1078 00:48:45,350 --> 00:48:48,590 S3: the different styles are so fractured, like you can't, you know, 1079 00:48:48,590 --> 00:48:51,230 S3: I've seen other people make this comparison, but it feels 1080 00:48:51,230 --> 00:48:54,049 S3: relevant because it's happening right now. But like Baby Reindeer 1081 00:48:54,050 --> 00:48:57,800 S3: would be a bad show to not binge. I think 1082 00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:00,500 S3: like that. That is a show fit for binging. It's 1083 00:49:00,500 --> 00:49:02,990 S3: half an hour. It's it's kind of dark. You just 1084 00:49:02,989 --> 00:49:04,700 S3: get so sucked in that you don't want to watch 1085 00:49:04,700 --> 00:49:05,990 S3: one episode of that and then wait a week to 1086 00:49:05,989 --> 00:49:07,040 S3: watch the next one. 1087 00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:08,510 S1: That also could have been a movie, you know what 1088 00:49:08,510 --> 00:49:10,190 S1: I mean? Like, it literally could have been like a 1089 00:49:10,190 --> 00:49:11,000 S1: two hour movie. 1090 00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:13,069 S3: Yeah, it could, it could have been. But like, I mean, 1091 00:49:13,070 --> 00:49:15,050 S3: it ended up I, I almost think it was one 1092 00:49:15,050 --> 00:49:16,430 S3: of the rare ones where I think they actually got 1093 00:49:16,430 --> 00:49:18,890 S3: it just right, like it felt it felt perfect at 1094 00:49:18,890 --> 00:49:22,370 S3: seven episodes. And then, you know, we've all loved. Well, um, 1095 00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:23,960 S3: I don't know, Mel. You've kind of like, tapped out 1096 00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:24,859 S3: of culture completely now. 1097 00:49:24,860 --> 00:49:25,190 S6: But. 1098 00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:29,060 S3: We've all enjoyed Shogun, which is like probably the closest 1099 00:49:29,060 --> 00:49:31,339 S3: thing to what all the prestige TV heads big up 1100 00:49:31,340 --> 00:49:34,400 S3: to me and Osborne have been reaching for since succession ended. 1101 00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:36,680 S3: But that like, man, if that was like, you know, 1102 00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:38,420 S3: that was perfect for exactly what it was. It was 1103 00:49:38,420 --> 00:49:40,340 S3: week by week. And so like the TV landscape is 1104 00:49:40,340 --> 00:49:43,520 S3: so fractured now. Anyway, just like my friend Jerry said, that, 1105 00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:46,009 S3: you know, you can't have you need to have both 1106 00:49:46,010 --> 00:49:48,530 S3: models like coexisting at the same time. Some stuff needs 1107 00:49:48,530 --> 00:49:50,630 S3: to be binged, some stuff needs to be appointment viewing 1108 00:49:50,630 --> 00:49:53,750 S3: week by week. And like that's just how the landscape 1109 00:49:53,750 --> 00:49:56,180 S3: has like kind of evolved now. And so we all 1110 00:49:56,180 --> 00:49:57,590 S3: have to just like live with that. And I think 1111 00:49:57,590 --> 00:50:00,020 S3: there's no like this one is better or that one 1112 00:50:00,020 --> 00:50:02,330 S3: is better, but I do. I did get the suspicion 1113 00:50:02,330 --> 00:50:04,910 S3: as well. Like I wondered, having spoken to this about 1114 00:50:04,910 --> 00:50:07,370 S3: almost exclusively people that I know either work in the media, 1115 00:50:07,370 --> 00:50:10,190 S3: work in TV, or just really are into the industry 1116 00:50:10,190 --> 00:50:13,160 S3: of TV. Like, again, I don't mean to like slander 1117 00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:15,110 S3: my wife on this podcast for the thousandth time, but 1118 00:50:15,110 --> 00:50:17,180 S3: you know, she's someone who, like, I reckon half of 1119 00:50:17,180 --> 00:50:18,739 S3: this show, she'd be like sick, put it on like 1120 00:50:18,739 --> 00:50:20,480 S3: she couldn't give a fuck about, like if it's mid 1121 00:50:20,510 --> 00:50:22,850 S3: TV or not. Like, is this just a problem for 1122 00:50:22,850 --> 00:50:24,920 S3: people who are like really in. 1123 00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:26,930 S1: I think it is. But I think like basically all 1124 00:50:26,930 --> 00:50:29,750 S1: of these conversations are right, like most people have enough 1125 00:50:29,750 --> 00:50:33,980 S1: to worry about than, than debating. The New York Times 1126 00:50:33,980 --> 00:50:37,160 S1: chief TV critics like attempt, as Mel said, to coin 1127 00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,110 S1: a term called mid TV like I think and I 1128 00:50:39,110 --> 00:50:40,760 S1: think this is why I think it's really important to 1129 00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:43,370 S1: say it is not the fault of any individual who 1130 00:50:43,370 --> 00:50:45,830 S1: loves watching shows that we think are like mid or 1131 00:50:45,830 --> 00:50:48,290 S1: even worse. I just don't think that is the solution 1132 00:50:48,290 --> 00:50:50,149 S1: to this. And I think we need to make sure 1133 00:50:50,150 --> 00:50:52,490 S1: that there are shows for all sorts of different audiences 1134 00:50:52,489 --> 00:50:54,830 S1: and different levels of quality, and some that are bingeable 1135 00:50:54,830 --> 00:50:59,120 S1: and some that are more, uh, interesting and perhaps more cerebral. 1136 00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:03,890 S1: But I think those decisions need to be made deliberately, 1137 00:51:03,890 --> 00:51:07,730 S1: not to feed a never ending sort of like fire 1138 00:51:07,730 --> 00:51:11,210 S1: hose of just content, because that is how streamers have 1139 00:51:11,210 --> 00:51:14,930 S1: optimized what they want, which is time on the app, 1140 00:51:14,930 --> 00:51:17,330 S1: which is what shareholders want to see. Like, I feel 1141 00:51:17,330 --> 00:51:19,339 S1: like the things are upside down. It's like, yeah, let's 1142 00:51:19,340 --> 00:51:22,489 S1: make high quality, mid quality, low quality television to satisfy 1143 00:51:22,489 --> 00:51:25,280 S1: different audience segments. But let's not just end up with 1144 00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:27,319 S1: a situation where we need to have a thousand shows 1145 00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:29,720 S1: a year. So what is the most cost optimized model 1146 00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:31,640 S1: to do that? I think you made that point really 1147 00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:33,770 S1: well earlier, Mel. There's just so much of it. So 1148 00:51:33,770 --> 00:51:36,469 S1: we're probably going to like have to deal with this 1149 00:51:36,469 --> 00:51:38,390 S1: in the future. But is there a case for there 1150 00:51:38,390 --> 00:51:40,730 S1: being less television like being made? 1151 00:51:41,270 --> 00:51:44,690 S2: Yeah, definitely. And I think certain streamers will maybe settle 1152 00:51:44,690 --> 00:51:46,790 S2: into that because I think what you find and like 1153 00:51:46,790 --> 00:51:48,800 S2: I mean, it's in the book publishing industry as well. 1154 00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:51,469 S2: I know you guys have no doubt missed my book 1155 00:51:51,469 --> 00:51:55,130 S2: references is that, you know, these are companies that need 1156 00:51:55,130 --> 00:51:58,550 S2: to make money. They have a shareholders to make happy 1157 00:51:58,550 --> 00:52:02,480 S2: that you need to offset your bigger, bolder, riskier projects 1158 00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:05,360 S2: with some money makers. Like that's just the way the 1159 00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:08,570 S2: world works, right? I mean, it's not that different from journalism. 1160 00:52:08,570 --> 00:52:10,490 S2: You need to do some stuff so you can do 1161 00:52:10,489 --> 00:52:12,560 S2: the stuff that's deeply important. 1162 00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:14,690 S1: Yeah. Like all of our work is basically what funds 1163 00:52:14,690 --> 00:52:17,840 S1: Nick McKenzie's investigative pieces. That's I. 1164 00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:20,090 S3: Do the podcast so I can then do my high art. 1165 00:52:20,090 --> 00:52:20,990 S6: Column on Sundays. 1166 00:52:20,989 --> 00:52:25,609 S2: Yeah, we deserve the Walkley. Um, yeah, exactly. So I think, 1167 00:52:25,610 --> 00:52:28,610 S2: you know, you there is a I get that that 1168 00:52:28,610 --> 00:52:31,219 S2: stuff needs to exist. So the kind of more daring 1169 00:52:31,219 --> 00:52:34,340 S2: stuff like the curse can exist and I think, you know, 1170 00:52:34,340 --> 00:52:37,040 S2: it's ignorant to not see that that is the reality 1171 00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:40,160 S2: of the situation. I do think maybe some streamers, depending 1172 00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:42,740 S2: on how they want to approach their subscribers in the future, 1173 00:52:42,739 --> 00:52:45,320 S2: will probably go less, but more high quality, which I mean, 1174 00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:48,529 S2: HBO has largely done in the past. Fewer shows, higher 1175 00:52:48,530 --> 00:52:51,529 S2: quality shows, and that will become their their brand. So 1176 00:52:51,530 --> 00:52:54,649 S2: I think you probably will see that. I guess my 1177 00:52:54,650 --> 00:52:57,440 S2: main issue with this article was just the fact that 1178 00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:01,370 S2: I think he discredits the good shows that are being made. 1179 00:53:01,370 --> 00:53:05,480 S2: And yes, there are more mid shows, but the fact 1180 00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:08,029 S2: is like there's only more because of we're consuming more 1181 00:53:08,030 --> 00:53:09,529 S2: TV than we have in the past. And I don't 1182 00:53:09,530 --> 00:53:13,220 S2: think he really acknowledges the why the Mid exists as 1183 00:53:13,219 --> 00:53:14,120 S2: it does now. 1184 00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:19,190 S1: I like I think I appreciate your optimism, Mel, but 1185 00:53:19,190 --> 00:53:21,260 S1: I feel and I'm not trying to say that you're 1186 00:53:21,260 --> 00:53:23,180 S1: looking at me like I'm being I'm not trying to 1187 00:53:23,180 --> 00:53:25,340 S1: be patronizing at all because I think I can get 1188 00:53:25,340 --> 00:53:27,920 S1: in my like head and be very negative about a 1189 00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:30,050 S1: lot of different things. So I think it is genuinely 1190 00:53:30,050 --> 00:53:32,780 S1: very helpful to hear someone who thinks about this stuff 1191 00:53:32,780 --> 00:53:35,600 S1: as much as I do say, hey, actually, just relax, man. 1192 00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:38,690 S1: There's like stuff going on. But I think the HBO example, 1193 00:53:38,690 --> 00:53:41,360 S1: like HBO doesn't exist anymore. HBO is rebranded to Max. 1194 00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:43,719 S1: It is a subset. Of a subset of a company 1195 00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:47,680 S1: that is now called discovery. Like, somehow the Discovery Channel 1196 00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:50,469 S1: became the biggest thing out of like, Warner Brothers and 1197 00:53:50,469 --> 00:53:53,350 S1: HBO and all these things merging together. And I think 1198 00:53:53,350 --> 00:53:56,290 S1: in some ways that is like a really perfect metaphor 1199 00:53:56,290 --> 00:54:00,609 S1: that this once prestigious brand that took these risks and 1200 00:54:00,610 --> 00:54:04,300 S1: sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't, is now just 1201 00:54:04,300 --> 00:54:07,660 S1: a name on a streaming platform that is a subsidiary 1202 00:54:07,660 --> 00:54:11,470 S1: of a giant, you know, mega corporation that doesn't really 1203 00:54:11,469 --> 00:54:14,500 S1: care about taking creative risks. Maybe that is doing a 1204 00:54:14,500 --> 00:54:16,629 S1: disservice to these to the people there. And I'm sure 1205 00:54:16,630 --> 00:54:20,319 S1: there are still really good network execs and programmers, but 1206 00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:23,050 S1: I just think that the trend is going in a 1207 00:54:23,050 --> 00:54:26,500 S1: direction that is taking us further away from even the 1208 00:54:26,500 --> 00:54:28,360 S1: shows that we think now are pretty good. And I 1209 00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:30,310 S1: guess what I always want to come back to is, 1210 00:54:30,310 --> 00:54:32,590 S1: and maybe this is just the reality of the future 1211 00:54:32,590 --> 00:54:36,700 S1: of how we live in terms of fragmentation. Since succession, 1212 00:54:36,700 --> 00:54:39,550 S1: there has not been a show that, like a lot 1213 00:54:39,550 --> 00:54:43,190 S1: of people watch and talk about. And. I know it's 1214 00:54:43,190 --> 00:54:44,810 S1: been 12 months, but like, there's been a lot of 1215 00:54:44,810 --> 00:54:47,840 S1: big shows. There's been a lot of attempts to do 1216 00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:50,509 S1: something like this. There's going to be some more later 1217 00:54:50,510 --> 00:54:53,960 S1: this year and next year. I like. Is that ever 1218 00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:54,980 S1: going to happen again? 1219 00:54:55,400 --> 00:55:00,740 S2: The succession one confuses me a little, only because I 1220 00:55:00,739 --> 00:55:03,290 S2: do speak to a lot of people who were not 1221 00:55:03,290 --> 00:55:06,710 S2: as into succession as we were, and as people in 1222 00:55:06,710 --> 00:55:11,120 S2: the media were into succession, and they never released viewer numbers, 1223 00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:12,830 S2: though we know it wasn't. You know, we know it 1224 00:55:12,830 --> 00:55:16,250 S2: wasn't the most popular show on binge and that the 1225 00:55:16,250 --> 00:55:18,380 S2: numbers actually weren't as high as you mentioned. Some of 1226 00:55:18,380 --> 00:55:20,359 S2: the other shows, I mean, Law and Order, NCIS were 1227 00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:22,700 S2: still kind of far outweighing the number of people of 1228 00:55:22,700 --> 00:55:25,430 S2: watching succession. So, I mean, will we get and I'm 1229 00:55:25,430 --> 00:55:27,920 S2: sure we will get another succession. Baby reindeer is not 1230 00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:30,650 S2: obviously a week by week appointment viewing, but people have 1231 00:55:30,650 --> 00:55:32,510 S2: been talking about that. The curse had its moment. The 1232 00:55:32,510 --> 00:55:34,400 S2: White Lotus is going to come back. I know that 1233 00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:37,280 S2: that's huge in Australia. It hasn't cut through as much overseas, 1234 00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:39,830 S2: particularly in the UK, but here it's huge. I just 1235 00:55:39,830 --> 00:55:41,900 S2: got back from um, I just got back from the UK. 1236 00:55:41,900 --> 00:55:43,700 S6: I've done the streets, the London streets. 1237 00:55:44,510 --> 00:55:46,460 S2: I've done a survey of the population. 1238 00:55:46,460 --> 00:55:46,970 S6: They're all just. 1239 00:55:46,969 --> 00:55:47,600 S3: Top boy over. 1240 00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:47,960 S6: There. 1241 00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:50,779 S2: Yeah, I mean I do think shows will still cut 1242 00:55:50,780 --> 00:55:52,580 S2: through and I do think we'll have a succession again 1243 00:55:52,580 --> 00:55:54,440 S2: in the future. Yeah. And maybe that is my, um, 1244 00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:59,239 S2: post-holiday optimistic glow. But I just do think good shows 1245 00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:01,880 S2: still exist and we are still talking about them. 1246 00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:02,930 S1: What do you think, Thomas? 1247 00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:03,620 S6: Uh, no. 1248 00:56:03,620 --> 00:56:06,890 S3: I think I tend to agree with you, sadly. Osman. Uh, like, 1249 00:56:06,890 --> 00:56:09,290 S3: I just think the way the trend is going that 1250 00:56:09,290 --> 00:56:12,319 S3: of course, these good shows still exist, but as the 1251 00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:15,260 S3: kind of like streamers get more and more of a 1252 00:56:15,260 --> 00:56:17,930 S3: return on, like pumping out this certain level of TV 1253 00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:20,960 S3: that like how frequently these good shows slip through the 1254 00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:24,590 S3: cracks almost and become great, uh, will become less and less, 1255 00:56:24,590 --> 00:56:27,319 S3: and there'll be less stuff like the, you know, the 1256 00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:30,410 S3: The sympathizer, the curse, the bear. Like, think about how 1257 00:56:30,410 --> 00:56:32,120 S3: much we all, like, frothed over the bed just because 1258 00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:35,089 S3: it was like this one. Like, great show that managed 1259 00:56:35,090 --> 00:56:36,620 S3: to kind of slip through. And it could have so 1260 00:56:36,620 --> 00:56:38,690 S3: easily if you if you said to someone the elevator 1261 00:56:38,690 --> 00:56:40,250 S3: pitch of the bear, it could sound like any other 1262 00:56:40,250 --> 00:56:42,650 S3: mid TV show. And so I don't necessarily think the 1263 00:56:42,650 --> 00:56:45,230 S3: argument is whether or not these good shows will continue 1264 00:56:45,230 --> 00:56:47,870 S3: to exist, but it's like, how frequently will we get them? 1265 00:56:47,870 --> 00:56:50,479 S3: Or will we just continue to like, be drowned out 1266 00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:53,330 S3: by shows that seem pretty good until. Yeah, kind of 1267 00:56:53,330 --> 00:56:55,040 S3: like he says, you don't even notice that the temperature 1268 00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:59,239 S3: has changed. Um, so yeah, I don't know. But either way, um, 1269 00:56:59,420 --> 00:57:01,760 S3: it's definitely an interesting conversation. And, you know, we've got 1270 00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:04,340 S3: between this and Jerry Seinfeld, it's like, are we obsessed 1271 00:57:04,340 --> 00:57:06,440 S3: with the past? Do we know what's good anymore? Like, yeah. 1272 00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:08,450 S1: And we should say that, like, probably part of the 1273 00:57:08,450 --> 00:57:11,540 S1: reason why it exercises all of us in different ways 1274 00:57:11,540 --> 00:57:14,870 S1: is because it's literally our job. Right? Like every day 1275 00:57:14,870 --> 00:57:17,960 S1: in our jobs, we think about what TV shows or 1276 00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:20,360 S1: works of film or whatever do we want to talk about? 1277 00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:23,210 S1: What are people watching? Why aren't they watching this? What 1278 00:57:23,210 --> 00:57:25,340 S1: shows do we want to cover on this kind of podcast? 1279 00:57:25,340 --> 00:57:27,290 S1: And when you're making a podcast and you're wanting to 1280 00:57:27,290 --> 00:57:29,990 S1: reach as many people as possible, it's like, okay, you know, 1281 00:57:29,990 --> 00:57:32,780 S1: like Vanity Fair does these recap things, right? And they 1282 00:57:32,780 --> 00:57:35,090 S1: chose the regime because they're like, this is a big 1283 00:57:35,090 --> 00:57:38,270 S1: Kate Winslet show on HBO with some of the writing 1284 00:57:38,300 --> 00:57:40,640 S1: team from succession like, this is obviously going to bang 1285 00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:44,450 S1: and go, what? It totally flopped. And it's an interesting 1286 00:57:44,450 --> 00:57:50,180 S1: like insidery, I guess, insight into how people whose job 1287 00:57:50,180 --> 00:57:53,480 S1: it is is to critique and discuss culture, choose what 1288 00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:56,150 S1: to talk about when the market and the audience is 1289 00:57:56,150 --> 00:57:58,580 S1: so fragmented. So there is something that is like just very, 1290 00:57:58,580 --> 00:58:02,060 S1: I guess, personal to our work. But I also think 1291 00:58:02,060 --> 00:58:04,070 S1: audiences are interested in it because even if they don't 1292 00:58:04,070 --> 00:58:07,130 S1: think about it necessarily from the same perspective we do, 1293 00:58:07,130 --> 00:58:09,800 S1: it determines what is on their Netflix home page. It 1294 00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:12,890 S1: determines what shows are available for them to watch. So 1295 00:58:12,890 --> 00:58:14,210 S1: it is something that I think a lot of people 1296 00:58:14,210 --> 00:58:16,430 S1: should be engaged in. You should check out that piece 1297 00:58:16,430 --> 00:58:17,720 S1: in the New York Times, I think. 1298 00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:20,270 S2: Absolutely. And, Thomas, your goal for the year is to 1299 00:58:20,270 --> 00:58:23,210 S2: coin a term that can be in the OED. I've actually. 1300 00:58:23,210 --> 00:58:24,290 S6: Got one. Really? Yeah. 1301 00:58:24,290 --> 00:58:29,780 S3: What curds and whey viewing. So basically. What it is 1302 00:58:29,780 --> 00:58:32,180 S3: is when you can't separate what's good and bad and 1303 00:58:32,180 --> 00:58:34,850 S3: then you shan't ever enjoy another TV show again. 1304 00:58:34,850 --> 00:58:38,180 S1: I'm more of a fan of the the wheat and chaff, 1305 00:58:38,210 --> 00:58:40,430 S1: you know, logic around this stuff. 1306 00:58:40,430 --> 00:58:41,180 S6: And there was an opal. 1307 00:58:41,210 --> 00:58:43,580 S2: Tower metaphor in there somewhere as well. 1308 00:58:43,670 --> 00:58:45,830 S1: The Opal tower one was very good, bringing the yimby 1309 00:58:45,860 --> 00:58:49,700 S1: discourse to conversations around television. Very, very good. 1310 00:58:50,030 --> 00:58:50,960 S6: Um, okay. 1311 00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:53,570 S1: So it's time for Impress Your Friends, a regular segment 1312 00:58:53,570 --> 00:58:57,230 S1: where we share something we read, watch, listen to consumed 1313 00:58:57,230 --> 00:58:59,630 S1: in the past week. Mel. You're back, I'm back. 1314 00:58:59,660 --> 00:59:00,860 S6: You get to go first. 1315 00:59:00,860 --> 00:59:04,100 S2: Guess what? I've picked a book. Yeah, I had to. 1316 00:59:04,100 --> 00:59:06,470 S2: I read so much while I was away. Um, usually 1317 00:59:06,470 --> 00:59:08,960 S2: when I go on holiday, I don't read new books. Like, 1318 00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:12,140 S2: it's I it's time to revisit the past. So I 1319 00:59:12,140 --> 00:59:15,950 S2: understand where where we're at today. Um, but I did 1320 00:59:15,950 --> 00:59:19,460 S2: read one new ish book, which was a psycho uzuki's 1321 00:59:19,460 --> 00:59:23,210 S2: best selling butter, translated by Polly Barton. It's a Japanese 1322 00:59:23,210 --> 00:59:25,910 S2: kind of cult best seller. Um, it's inspired by the 1323 00:59:25,910 --> 00:59:28,100 S2: true story of this Japanese woman who was known as 1324 00:59:28,100 --> 00:59:31,760 S2: the Konkatsu Killer. And she poisoned three of her male lovers. 1325 00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:34,400 S2: So it takes that story and it turns it into 1326 00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:39,200 S2: this chef, um, Nanako Kagi, who's been convicted for seducing 1327 00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:42,890 S2: businessmen with her cooking and then poisoning her. She's in jail. 1328 00:59:42,890 --> 00:59:45,470 S2: She meets up with this journalist who wants to to 1329 00:59:45,470 --> 00:59:48,470 S2: get a recipe, and they start a very big exchange. 1330 00:59:48,470 --> 00:59:51,950 S2: I love books about food, and this is about desire. 1331 00:59:52,270 --> 00:59:56,170 S2: An appetite. It's about beauty standards in Japan and hunger. 1332 00:59:56,170 --> 01:00:01,510 S2: It's a really gripping Bingeable that was Bingeable works particularly 1333 01:00:01,510 --> 01:00:05,439 S2: well here. Um Bingeable read. Definitely worth picking up. Good. 1334 01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:07,240 S2: Also good for a plane, I would say. Have you 1335 01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:08,050 S2: ever read Ottolenghi? 1336 01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:08,800 S3: Simple. 1337 01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:10,450 S6: Also a great book about food. 1338 01:00:10,450 --> 01:00:11,860 S2: Yeah, it stresses me out. 1339 01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:15,640 S1: Uh. Great recommendation. Thanks, Mel. Great to have you back. 1340 01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:16,750 S6: Thank you. We did, we did. 1341 01:00:16,990 --> 01:00:18,520 S1: We did mention books while you were away. Just for 1342 01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:19,930 S1: the record. You wouldn't know because you didn't listen. But 1343 01:00:19,930 --> 01:00:20,770 S1: we did talk a fair bit. 1344 01:00:20,890 --> 01:00:22,180 S2: I'm gonna go back and listen to them all. 1345 01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:25,030 S6: You're not gonna. The breastfeeding segment in particular. 1346 01:00:25,390 --> 01:00:26,890 S1: Uh, Thomas, what have you got for us? 1347 01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:29,710 S3: Uh, yes, I have a TV show. Is it me? 1348 01:00:29,740 --> 01:00:30,310 S3: Nobody knows. 1349 01:00:30,700 --> 01:00:30,880 S6: Um. 1350 01:00:31,870 --> 01:00:34,570 S3: Uh, no, it's actually really good. Um, it's it's here 1351 01:00:34,570 --> 01:00:36,850 S3: on the ABC. It's called after the party. You guys across. 1352 01:00:36,850 --> 01:00:37,150 S6: This? 1353 01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:38,800 S1: Yeah. Really interesting choice. 1354 01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:42,040 S3: Yeah. Uh, it's. Look, I feel like lately. I mean, 1355 01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:44,320 S3: a couple of weeks ago, I recommended baby reindeer. Also 1356 01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:46,750 S3: a very heavy and triggering show. And it's kind of 1357 01:00:46,750 --> 01:00:49,570 S3: in the same territory in terms of, like, it's a 1358 01:00:49,570 --> 01:00:52,810 S3: New Zealand six parter that deals with some pretty heavy themes. 1359 01:00:52,810 --> 01:00:57,130 S3: It stars Robyn Malcolm in the lead as Penny. And basically, 1360 01:00:57,130 --> 01:00:59,470 S3: you know, she's a high school teacher in New Zealand. 1361 01:00:59,470 --> 01:01:02,230 S3: We meet her and we kind of learn that five 1362 01:01:02,230 --> 01:01:05,470 S3: years prior, at her husband's birthday, she kind of stumbled 1363 01:01:05,470 --> 01:01:08,080 S3: on a scene of him. It was a drunken party, 1364 01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:10,360 S3: and she stumbled on a scene of him, possibly what 1365 01:01:10,360 --> 01:01:13,600 S3: she thinks is like assaulting a young person at the party, 1366 01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:16,630 S3: a young man. And we flash forward five years. Her 1367 01:01:16,630 --> 01:01:19,390 S3: husband is kind of like left town in disgrace. Although 1368 01:01:19,390 --> 01:01:22,210 S3: no one really believes her side of the story. He 1369 01:01:22,210 --> 01:01:25,030 S3: returns home, they share a teenage daughter and the story 1370 01:01:25,030 --> 01:01:26,980 S3: kind of picks up from there. And it's a really 1371 01:01:26,980 --> 01:01:29,920 S3: interesting kind of musing on like what it's like to be, 1372 01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:32,860 S3: you know, someone who's accused of something that in your 1373 01:01:32,860 --> 01:01:35,230 S3: life changes. But also for Robyn Malcolm's character, you know, 1374 01:01:35,230 --> 01:01:37,360 S3: no one believes her. She lives in this kind of 1375 01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:40,840 S3: isolation with what she believes she saw. And, you know, 1376 01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:43,090 S3: at the start where kind of we're following her and 1377 01:01:43,090 --> 01:01:45,220 S3: we're led to believe that's what happened. But we do 1378 01:01:45,220 --> 01:01:47,530 S3: start to get the inkling that perhaps she's an unreliable narrator, 1379 01:01:47,530 --> 01:01:50,350 S3: and it covers some really interesting themes. So that's on 1380 01:01:50,350 --> 01:01:52,960 S3: ABC iview. All six episodes are available now. 1381 01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:54,820 S1: It's a really, really good show. It's a really good show, 1382 01:01:54,820 --> 01:01:56,680 S1: really interesting. It's getting a lot of great reviews, a 1383 01:01:56,680 --> 01:02:00,880 S1: really good recommendation. I would put it above mid TV. Yes. 1384 01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:03,040 S3: Me too. Yeah. Where is that mill? 1385 01:02:04,630 --> 01:02:07,810 S2: Just which tower in Sydney could I compare that to? 1386 01:02:09,370 --> 01:02:13,000 S1: Um, my recommendation is the Sydney Morning Herald's coverage of 1387 01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:15,790 S1: the implosion of the South Sydney Rabbitohs. Oh my gosh 1388 01:02:16,420 --> 01:02:18,400 S1: it's not. But man things are not going well. You 1389 01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:19,390 S1: guys across this. 1390 01:02:19,390 --> 01:02:20,110 S3: Yeah man. 1391 01:02:20,110 --> 01:02:26,200 S1: Obviously everything's bad Russell Crowe apparently there's factions organizing against him. 1392 01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:28,870 S1: So I'm going to say that like we started this 1393 01:02:28,870 --> 01:02:33,730 S1: downhill trajectory after we moved from Redfern to Maroubra, Heffron Park, 1394 01:02:33,730 --> 01:02:35,980 S1: that was not a good decision. Um, we have not 1395 01:02:35,980 --> 01:02:39,190 S1: done well since then. Um, that is not my recommendation. 1396 01:02:39,190 --> 01:02:41,980 S1: I just needed to get my feelings off on that one. 1397 01:02:41,980 --> 01:02:43,630 S3: Russell Crowe's been doing a fair bit of mid work, 1398 01:02:43,630 --> 01:02:44,140 S3: to be honest. 1399 01:02:44,140 --> 01:02:46,900 S2: I just watched I watched Land of Bad actually. And 1400 01:02:46,900 --> 01:02:48,730 S2: you know who has a cameo in it? George Burgess 1401 01:02:48,730 --> 01:02:50,230 S2: I didn't know which one he was, but I did 1402 01:02:50,230 --> 01:02:51,550 S2: read that he's got a cameo in it. 1403 01:02:51,550 --> 01:02:53,680 S3: Land of bad is how you could basically describe his 1404 01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:54,640 S3: career over the last ten years. 1405 01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:56,860 S1: Someone pointed out that Russell Crowe was in two movies 1406 01:02:56,860 --> 01:02:59,920 S1: with the word Exorcist in the title last year. It 1407 01:02:59,920 --> 01:03:03,160 S1: was like Exorcism and The Pope's Exorcist, and the posters 1408 01:03:03,160 --> 01:03:05,200 S1: of them are just him wearing like a, you know, 1409 01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:07,510 S1: priest's robe and holding up a crucifix. 1410 01:03:07,510 --> 01:03:09,670 S3: What's happened to him, though? Because he did, and he 1411 01:03:09,700 --> 01:03:13,150 S3: unhinged was really weird. Land of bad, the Pope's exorcist. 1412 01:03:13,150 --> 01:03:14,620 S3: He has done so many shit movies. 1413 01:03:14,620 --> 01:03:17,230 S2: Poker face one was that. Yeah. Or whatever. Poker. 1414 01:03:17,230 --> 01:03:18,250 S6: Yeah, that was on Stan, though. 1415 01:03:18,250 --> 01:03:18,850 S3: We liked that one. 1416 01:03:18,850 --> 01:03:19,690 S2: We do like Stan. 1417 01:03:19,690 --> 01:03:20,620 S6: Um, yeah. 1418 01:03:20,620 --> 01:03:23,080 S1: And he's he's this movie Kraven the Hunter, which is 1419 01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:26,560 S1: like a the Sony thing which has been delayed again, 1420 01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:27,820 S1: I think it's supposed to come out last year and 1421 01:03:27,820 --> 01:03:28,840 S1: was supposed to come out this year. I think now 1422 01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:33,400 S1: it's coming out 2025. Uh, I just like, can this movie. Anyway, 1423 01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:34,000 S1: let me tell you. 1424 01:03:34,180 --> 01:03:34,810 S6: Isn't he. 1425 01:03:34,810 --> 01:03:37,330 S2: Can I ask, isn't he building like a film studio 1426 01:03:37,330 --> 01:03:39,760 S2: on the North Coast? Wasn't that what he was up to? 1427 01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:40,180 S6: Yeah, yeah, on. 1428 01:03:40,180 --> 01:03:42,730 S1: His farm up there. Mid-North coast near Coffs Harbour. Um, 1429 01:03:42,730 --> 01:03:46,030 S1: which is where he, uh, famously nine years ago took 1430 01:03:46,030 --> 01:03:49,060 S1: some Souths players for a let's not talk about this anymore. Um. 1431 01:03:50,230 --> 01:03:51,730 S3: What's your recommendation this week? 1432 01:03:51,730 --> 01:03:53,350 S1: My recommendation? So you guys know that I'm not a 1433 01:03:53,350 --> 01:03:56,230 S1: big Marvel head these days, but there was a cartoon 1434 01:03:56,230 --> 01:03:58,420 S1: show I watched in the 90s when I was a kid, 1435 01:03:58,420 --> 01:04:01,360 S1: which was how I fell in love with comic books. 1436 01:04:01,360 --> 01:04:04,270 S1: It was X-Men The Animated Series, which is really iconic 1437 01:04:04,270 --> 01:04:05,650 S1: kind of theme music. And it's a big part of 1438 01:04:05,650 --> 01:04:09,040 S1: the reason why X-Men became like a pop cultural phenomenon 1439 01:04:09,040 --> 01:04:11,440 S1: in that era, leading into, you know, the first Sony 1440 01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:14,470 S1: X-Men films with Hugh Jackman. That TV show has actually 1441 01:04:14,470 --> 01:04:19,570 S1: been rebooted by Disney. It's got X-Men 97. It's really interesting. 1442 01:04:19,570 --> 01:04:23,709 S1: It's really fun and sort of violent and thought provoking. 1443 01:04:23,710 --> 01:04:26,050 S1: There's a lot of analogies in this series to like 1444 01:04:26,050 --> 01:04:31,000 S1: January 6th and, you know, ideas around terrorism and politics. 1445 01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:34,300 S1: It's a really interesting show. It's doing really, really well. 1446 01:04:34,300 --> 01:04:37,810 S1: I think it's got a lot of fans and hype, 1447 01:04:37,810 --> 01:04:40,600 S1: particularly in the States. I'm just having a really good 1448 01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:42,940 S1: time watching it. It's like it's fun, it's thought provoking, 1449 01:04:42,940 --> 01:04:44,620 S1: but it's also just like a cartoon that is a 1450 01:04:44,620 --> 01:04:47,200 S1: bit silly at some times. So it's a very good 1451 01:04:47,200 --> 01:04:50,710 S1: kind of chill watch. If the grimness of Baby Reindeer 1452 01:04:50,710 --> 01:04:51,910 S1: and After the Party getting a bit too. 1453 01:04:52,020 --> 01:04:53,280 S11: Too much for you. 1454 01:04:53,430 --> 01:04:53,850 S6: A palate. 1455 01:04:53,850 --> 01:04:54,480 S3: Cleanser? 1456 01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:56,010 S1: Indeed, indeed. 1457 01:04:56,010 --> 01:04:56,550 S6: I thought you were going to. 1458 01:04:56,550 --> 01:04:58,980 S2: Pick Sabrina Carpenter's, um, espresso. 1459 01:04:59,010 --> 01:04:59,580 S6: Well, I am. 1460 01:04:59,580 --> 01:05:02,610 S1: Loving that song, too. So good. Sabrina Carpenter, thank God 1461 01:05:02,610 --> 01:05:05,730 S1: we have someone who's, like, genuinely making good pop hits 1462 01:05:05,730 --> 01:05:09,000 S1: when Taylor is in her fail era. 1463 01:05:09,510 --> 01:05:11,040 S3: Well, can we, can we? Before we wrap things up, 1464 01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:12,720 S3: we didn't get to hear Merle last week on Taylor. 1465 01:05:12,750 --> 01:05:15,750 S3: Can you give us, like, your really quick take on 1466 01:05:15,750 --> 01:05:17,040 S3: the tortured poet's apartment? 1467 01:05:17,070 --> 01:05:20,040 S2: Okay. Quick take. I don't think it's as bad as 1468 01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:23,100 S2: the critics have been ready to say. I think there's 1469 01:05:23,100 --> 01:05:25,200 S2: a bit of groupthink going on in the amount of 1470 01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:28,350 S2: critics slamming it. I definitely do not like the long version, 1471 01:05:28,350 --> 01:05:30,690 S2: the two hour and two minute album. I think the 1472 01:05:30,690 --> 01:05:33,000 S2: shorter one is good. Yes, I agree with you guys 1473 01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:35,160 S2: that there's a lot of it is derivative, a lot 1474 01:05:35,160 --> 01:05:36,900 S2: of it. I got Deja vu listening to. I was like, 1475 01:05:36,900 --> 01:05:39,540 S2: I've heard this, another Taylor song, but I do think 1476 01:05:39,540 --> 01:05:41,280 S2: there are some bangers, and I do think it is 1477 01:05:41,280 --> 01:05:44,730 S2: an album that rewards listening to more than once. 1478 01:05:44,730 --> 01:05:45,810 S1: Name one banger. 1479 01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:50,040 S2: I'm kind of down bad crying at the gym. Everything 1480 01:05:50,070 --> 01:05:54,180 S2: turns out teenage petulance. You know there are. And obviously the, um, 1481 01:05:54,180 --> 01:05:56,910 S2: do it with a broken heart. And I do think 1482 01:05:56,910 --> 01:05:58,860 S2: there might be a bit of disconnect between critics and 1483 01:05:58,860 --> 01:06:01,740 S2: her fans because her fans love this album. 1484 01:06:01,740 --> 01:06:03,900 S1: Yeah, not for the first time, Mel. Yeah, thanks for 1485 01:06:03,900 --> 01:06:05,040 S1: that one. Great analysis from. 1486 01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:05,850 S6: You. So would you say that. 1487 01:06:05,850 --> 01:06:08,250 S3: It's not great, but not bad, but it's just mid. 1488 01:06:08,310 --> 01:06:08,730 S6: That's don't. 1489 01:06:08,730 --> 01:06:10,230 S2: Understand me or Taylor. 1490 01:06:10,470 --> 01:06:12,210 S1: Well we are definitely not in our mid air. It's 1491 01:06:12,210 --> 01:06:13,410 S1: great to have you back Mel. 1492 01:06:13,410 --> 01:06:15,330 S2: It's great to be back I've missed you guys. 1493 01:06:15,330 --> 01:06:17,550 S1: Mel Thomas thanks so much. See you next week. 1494 01:06:17,580 --> 01:06:18,570 S6: Thanks. Bye. 1495 01:06:22,450 --> 01:06:25,300 S1: This episode of The Drop was produced by Jay Wong. 1496 01:06:25,330 --> 01:06:27,910 S1: If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop, 1497 01:06:27,910 --> 01:06:30,520 S1: make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast app. 1498 01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:32,800 S1: Leave us a review or better yet, share it with 1499 01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:35,590 S1: a friend! I'm Osman Farooqui, see you next week!