1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:04,520 S1: Hello and welcome to Inside Politics. I'm Jacqueline Maley. Today 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:07,280 S1: on the pod, we're going to discuss the so-called ISIS brides. 3 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:09,479 S1: That is the group of Australian women and their children 4 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:12,240 S1: who travelled to Syria to join Islamic State and are 5 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,720 S1: now trying to get home to Australia. Prime Minister Anthony 6 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:18,040 S1: Albanese says the women are not being provided with any 7 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:20,319 S1: assistance from the government, but it seems there is a 8 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:22,040 S1: little bit more to the story than the government is 9 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:24,759 S1: willing to admit to. And here to discuss, we have 10 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:29,200 S1: our senior writer and Walkley Award winning general legend Michael Bachelard, 11 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,080 S1: who's been following the story for years. He joins us 12 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,000 S1: from Melbourne. And joining us from Canberra, as usual, is 13 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:38,440 S1: our chief political correspondent, Paul Chuckle. Hello gentlemen. 14 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:39,600 S2: Good day Jacqueline. 15 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:40,360 S3: Good morning both. 16 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:43,360 S1: Batch. Thanks so much for joining us. I think it's 17 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:45,279 S1: the first that you come on inside politics and we're 18 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:47,840 S1: deeply honoured. Can you tell us a little bit about 19 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:50,239 S1: this group of Australian women and children who tried to 20 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:52,920 S1: leave Syria this week, or tried to leave their camp 21 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:55,720 S1: this week and were turned back? How many of them 22 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:57,680 S1: are there? Where are they coming from and where are 23 00:00:57,680 --> 00:00:58,680 S1: they trying to get to? 24 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:04,319 S2: So there's 11 women and 23 children in this cohort 25 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:08,119 S2: of 34. They're about half and a half from Sydney 26 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:12,840 S2: and Melbourne. They moved to Syria, or they in some 27 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,920 S2: cases say they were forcibly taken to Syria by husbands 28 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:20,880 S2: or whatever. When the Islamic, the so-called Islamic State caliphate 29 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:25,520 S2: was in operation between about 2014 and 2019 when that 30 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:31,320 S2: collapsed in March 2019. They were captured by Kurdish forces 31 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:35,120 S2: fighting against Islamic State in the northeast of Syria and 32 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:39,240 S2: put in internment camps. There are two camps there, and 33 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,160 S2: mostly they were put in a camp called Al-hol, which 34 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:46,280 S2: I visited that year, 2019, and they've been there ever since. 35 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,960 S2: They are Australian citizens. They have an entitlement, as Anthony 36 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:53,720 S2: Albanese has said multiple times this week, to to a 37 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:57,120 S2: passport and to return home. And this week they tried to, 38 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:01,690 S2: I guess, enjoy that entitlement and for various reasons have 39 00:02:01,690 --> 00:02:02,570 S2: been unable to. 40 00:02:03,530 --> 00:02:05,490 S1: So you. As you say, you went to the Al-hol 41 00:02:05,530 --> 00:02:09,130 S1: camp in the northeast of Syria in 2019. It's quite 42 00:02:09,130 --> 00:02:11,570 S1: a notorious camp. Can you tell us just briefly what 43 00:02:11,570 --> 00:02:13,410 S1: the conditions were like there and what you saw there 44 00:02:13,410 --> 00:02:16,130 S1: with that larger group of Australian women and children? 45 00:02:17,090 --> 00:02:19,609 S2: Yeah, they called themselves. They said they were living on 46 00:02:19,610 --> 00:02:22,210 S2: Australia Street, but it really wasn't a street. It was 47 00:02:22,210 --> 00:02:25,290 S2: a few tents amid the dust and dirt. There were 48 00:02:25,290 --> 00:02:29,170 S2: tens of thousands of other people there. It was very 49 00:02:29,169 --> 00:02:31,450 S2: hard for us to get in. The authorities were worried 50 00:02:31,450 --> 00:02:35,290 S2: about the security situation. We took us several hours to 51 00:02:35,330 --> 00:02:38,329 S2: convince them to let us in. They gave us not 52 00:02:38,330 --> 00:02:41,370 S2: very long as we drove in. The van we were 53 00:02:41,370 --> 00:02:45,650 S2: in was pelted with stones by some of the kids. There. 54 00:02:45,889 --> 00:02:48,650 S2: We saw young boys holding up the one finger, which 55 00:02:48,650 --> 00:02:52,010 S2: is sort of a sign, an Islamic State sign. It 56 00:02:52,010 --> 00:02:55,130 S2: was a pretty rough, rugged area. We could only interview 57 00:02:55,130 --> 00:02:58,850 S2: them for not very long. They had to keep their 58 00:02:58,889 --> 00:03:03,130 S2: niqabs on the whole time because to be seen without 59 00:03:03,130 --> 00:03:07,290 S2: one among the hardliners there would have been dangerous to them. 60 00:03:07,290 --> 00:03:09,850 S2: And they wanted to conduct the interview inside the tent. 61 00:03:10,210 --> 00:03:14,049 S2: So it was a very tense, difficult situation, partly relating 62 00:03:14,090 --> 00:03:17,329 S2: to the security situation in north eastern Syria at the time. 63 00:03:17,610 --> 00:03:21,609 S2: But just in general. That was a terrible camp. Um, 64 00:03:21,610 --> 00:03:24,490 S2: they were moved a couple of years later to a 65 00:03:24,490 --> 00:03:29,210 S2: better camp called Al-roj, a better regulated, um, better run 66 00:03:29,690 --> 00:03:34,330 S2: and less violent, I think. But nevertheless, they've been all up. 67 00:03:34,330 --> 00:03:38,530 S2: They've been living in tents in pretty dire situation, uh, 68 00:03:38,970 --> 00:03:42,890 S2: climatic extremes, often with very young children. There were babies 69 00:03:43,170 --> 00:03:47,050 S2: and and toddlers when, when I was there. And they've 70 00:03:47,050 --> 00:03:48,170 S2: been there for seven years. 71 00:03:48,450 --> 00:03:52,250 S1: Yeah. So successive Australian governments, going back to the Morrison 72 00:03:52,250 --> 00:03:56,690 S1: government have moved or have helped repatriate groups of women 73 00:03:56,690 --> 00:03:59,010 S1: and children previously. So this is sort of the most 74 00:03:59,010 --> 00:04:02,369 S1: recent tranche, if you like, of these, these women and children. 75 00:04:02,890 --> 00:04:05,570 S1: The Morrison government helped Clare O'Neill when she was home 76 00:04:05,570 --> 00:04:09,810 S1: affairs minister under the Albanese government in their last term, helped. 77 00:04:09,810 --> 00:04:14,570 S1: But this time, Paul, the political climate is really different 78 00:04:14,570 --> 00:04:17,130 S1: and Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has made it very, very 79 00:04:17,130 --> 00:04:20,170 S1: clear that he wants to distance himself and his government 80 00:04:20,170 --> 00:04:22,210 S1: from these women. And he says that they are not 81 00:04:22,210 --> 00:04:25,170 S1: being provided with any help. What's going on here? 82 00:04:26,290 --> 00:04:29,090 S3: Yeah, that's right Jack. So there's been a few different 83 00:04:29,089 --> 00:04:32,570 S3: moments of debate over the past 6 or 7 years 84 00:04:32,610 --> 00:04:36,210 S3: post the caliphate coming to an end, where different groups 85 00:04:36,210 --> 00:04:38,890 S3: have come back to Australia under the Morrison government. There 86 00:04:38,890 --> 00:04:41,930 S3: was a group of orphans brought in by that coalition government. 87 00:04:41,970 --> 00:04:44,770 S3: I was reading quotes from Scott Morrison today where he 88 00:04:44,770 --> 00:04:47,730 S3: expresses great sympathy with the plight of the children, who 89 00:04:47,770 --> 00:04:50,210 S3: he says made no mistake of their own. They were 90 00:04:50,210 --> 00:04:53,650 S3: dragged into this, and Australia has an obligation to give 91 00:04:53,650 --> 00:04:57,850 S3: them a decent life, notwithstanding the mistakes of their parents. Then, 92 00:04:57,850 --> 00:05:00,609 S3: in the early part of the Albanese government, there were 93 00:05:00,650 --> 00:05:03,770 S3: four women repatriated and 13 children that was under the 94 00:05:03,770 --> 00:05:07,089 S3: Home Affairs Minister, Clare O'Neil. And then just after the 95 00:05:07,089 --> 00:05:12,330 S3: last election in May, there was another outbreak of debate where, uh, 96 00:05:13,010 --> 00:05:16,370 S3: a group was. Well, did they come back? Batch did 97 00:05:16,370 --> 00:05:17,850 S3: that group come or not? In the end. 98 00:05:17,890 --> 00:05:20,410 S2: Yeah they did. They there was um. 99 00:05:20,570 --> 00:05:21,610 S3: Yeah they did. They went to. 100 00:05:21,610 --> 00:05:24,529 S2: Sydney. They escaped. They they were in Al Hol, not 101 00:05:24,529 --> 00:05:29,450 S2: in Al-roj. They escaped themselves via people smugglers and made 102 00:05:29,450 --> 00:05:33,530 S2: it to the Lebanese border. The Lebanese authorities imprisoned them. 103 00:05:33,970 --> 00:05:38,289 S2: And then somehow they got to the embassy and, uh. 104 00:05:38,290 --> 00:05:40,610 S2: And were given passports and came back to Melbourne. 105 00:05:40,650 --> 00:05:45,250 S3: Yeah. And in that post-election debate, the government used similar 106 00:05:45,250 --> 00:05:49,969 S3: language around and this kind of technical language around providing, quote, 107 00:05:50,010 --> 00:05:54,490 S3: no assistance, where they say that the only engagement they 108 00:05:54,490 --> 00:05:56,370 S3: have with the group that's attempting to come is to 109 00:05:56,410 --> 00:05:59,210 S3: issue them passports, which the government says they are obligated 110 00:05:59,210 --> 00:06:02,099 S3: to under Australian law, but they are not facilitating the 111 00:06:02,100 --> 00:06:05,100 S3: repatriation through flights or any other means. But there's this 112 00:06:05,100 --> 00:06:07,260 S3: kind of rhetorical double game going on where they say 113 00:06:07,260 --> 00:06:10,940 S3: there is no assistance, but there is the provision of passports. 114 00:06:11,060 --> 00:06:13,460 S3: The opposition says that is a form of assistance, and 115 00:06:13,460 --> 00:06:16,979 S3: the opposition questions why the passports are being given. Because 116 00:06:17,020 --> 00:06:20,940 S3: in previous moments there has been a rejection of the 117 00:06:20,940 --> 00:06:24,380 S3: provision of passports. And the opposition argues that could occur again. 118 00:06:24,460 --> 00:06:28,100 S3: But the interesting difference, I think, in the debate this 119 00:06:28,100 --> 00:06:31,860 S3: last week, compared to the one last year, is that 120 00:06:31,860 --> 00:06:35,860 S3: the Prime Minister is using much more forceful moral language. 121 00:06:36,180 --> 00:06:39,099 S3: When asked about whether there should be sympathy for the 122 00:06:39,100 --> 00:06:42,060 S3: group attempting to come in this past week, he's said 123 00:06:42,060 --> 00:06:44,300 S3: that to quote his and he's quoted in his mother 124 00:06:44,300 --> 00:06:46,980 S3: here he says, you make your own bed, and there 125 00:06:46,980 --> 00:06:49,220 S3: should be no sympathy with a group of people who, 126 00:06:49,420 --> 00:06:51,860 S3: at least in some parts, maybe not. The whole group 127 00:06:51,900 --> 00:06:56,900 S3: willingly went to fight with a group that massacred Christians. 128 00:06:56,940 --> 00:06:59,500 S3: Other minority groups use rape as a tool of war 129 00:06:59,820 --> 00:07:04,060 S3: and was driven by a motivation to create an anti-democratic, 130 00:07:04,100 --> 00:07:08,180 S3: theocratic state and the underpinning argument from the Prime Minister 131 00:07:08,180 --> 00:07:11,220 S3: there being that these people do not share Australian values 132 00:07:11,220 --> 00:07:13,740 S3: and have no place in Australia. So that's that's the 133 00:07:14,100 --> 00:07:17,460 S3: intriguing difference this time around. And obviously the context, whether 134 00:07:17,460 --> 00:07:20,380 S3: or not this is the driving force. But the obvious 135 00:07:20,740 --> 00:07:24,300 S3: intervening event is the Bondi massacre, which has created a 136 00:07:25,060 --> 00:07:28,780 S3: long and at times toxic debate about Muslim immigration in Australia. 137 00:07:29,540 --> 00:07:31,700 S1: But what what are you what's your take on what's 138 00:07:31,700 --> 00:07:34,380 S1: going on there? Because, I mean, is it tricky word 139 00:07:34,380 --> 00:07:38,340 S1: games from the government. Does the provision of passports amount 140 00:07:38,340 --> 00:07:41,980 S1: to assistance? Has any other assistance, consular or otherwise, been 141 00:07:41,980 --> 00:07:45,060 S1: given to these women? Presumably they need money to get out. 142 00:07:45,060 --> 00:07:48,380 S1: Presumably they couldn't apply for passports from within this horrific 143 00:07:48,380 --> 00:07:50,900 S1: camp they're staying in. What's really going on? 144 00:07:52,580 --> 00:07:54,460 S2: There's a bit of a mystery around this, but. But 145 00:07:54,460 --> 00:07:56,780 S2: I think we can say a few things. Paul's right. 146 00:07:56,780 --> 00:08:00,020 S2: The government government's rhetoric has hardened over the past year. 147 00:08:00,100 --> 00:08:02,060 S2: The message is the same if they can make it 148 00:08:02,060 --> 00:08:04,660 S2: back themselves. Our hands are tied. We are forced to 149 00:08:04,700 --> 00:08:08,140 S2: do this. It's not our fault, essentially, and I think 150 00:08:08,140 --> 00:08:11,660 S2: that is probably a post bondage thing. Um, but at 151 00:08:11,660 --> 00:08:14,660 S2: the same time, these people have been asking for passports 152 00:08:14,660 --> 00:08:17,580 S2: for a long time. A lot of the information that 153 00:08:17,580 --> 00:08:20,660 S2: the passports are based on are the photographs and whatever else. 154 00:08:20,660 --> 00:08:22,340 S2: The other stuff that they need was collected by the 155 00:08:22,340 --> 00:08:26,900 S2: government in 2022. As I understand it. So since then, 156 00:08:26,940 --> 00:08:29,700 S2: there's been various attempts by the family members to to 157 00:08:29,740 --> 00:08:32,780 S2: get passports issued and they have not been. And suddenly 158 00:08:32,780 --> 00:08:35,060 S2: now they have been. And I can't get to the 159 00:08:35,059 --> 00:08:38,940 S2: bottom of why, um, Penny Wong's not answering questions about it, 160 00:08:39,140 --> 00:08:42,340 S2: and the Department of Foreign Affairs won't talk about individuals. 161 00:08:42,860 --> 00:08:45,620 S2: So that's one sort of aspect of the mystery. The 162 00:08:45,620 --> 00:08:48,579 S2: other aspect is it is true that this is what 163 00:08:48,580 --> 00:08:52,620 S2: they call a family repatriation, that the families have gone over, 164 00:08:52,660 --> 00:08:55,500 S2: or representatives of the family have gone over to Syria 165 00:08:55,500 --> 00:08:58,260 S2: to try to bring them back, that the government hasn't 166 00:08:58,260 --> 00:09:02,950 S2: been actively involved in that, but the provision of passports 167 00:09:02,950 --> 00:09:06,990 S2: and the, I guess, the kind of fitting under the 168 00:09:07,030 --> 00:09:10,110 S2: rubric that we have to do this because it's what 169 00:09:10,110 --> 00:09:14,310 S2: the rules say is the government's position. It's interesting to 170 00:09:14,309 --> 00:09:17,390 S2: me that today, I think, or last night, Tony Burke's 171 00:09:17,429 --> 00:09:20,750 S2: position on that actually also sort of firmed up. He 172 00:09:20,750 --> 00:09:22,990 S2: basically said, we're obliged, we have to do this, we 173 00:09:22,990 --> 00:09:26,070 S2: can't not do it, etc. whereas for the past two 174 00:09:26,070 --> 00:09:29,390 S2: years at least, they have been not doing it. And 175 00:09:29,390 --> 00:09:32,750 S2: for the past seven years they haven't explored these options. 176 00:09:32,750 --> 00:09:36,670 S2: So there is clearly some assistance going on in my view. 177 00:09:36,710 --> 00:09:38,830 S1: Yeah. And clearly, as you say, something shifted in the 178 00:09:38,830 --> 00:09:41,190 S1: last little while that these women have been given the 179 00:09:41,190 --> 00:09:43,910 S1: passports and are able to leave the camp even though 180 00:09:43,910 --> 00:09:46,950 S1: they got turned back. What does the Australian law say 181 00:09:46,950 --> 00:09:49,590 S1: about the provision of passports to people who are, in fact, 182 00:09:49,630 --> 00:09:52,510 S1: Australian citizens? I mean, citizenship is an either or thing. 183 00:09:52,510 --> 00:09:54,510 S1: You can't be a little bit of a citizen. If 184 00:09:54,510 --> 00:09:57,870 S1: you are, then you are and you're entitled to a passport, right? 185 00:09:58,150 --> 00:10:01,309 S2: Correct. And the government's now kind of been pushed and 186 00:10:01,309 --> 00:10:04,750 S2: edged towards that decision because it's clear that finally we 187 00:10:04,790 --> 00:10:08,550 S2: found out that passports have been issued. Passports act is 188 00:10:08,550 --> 00:10:12,230 S2: the law. And underpinning that is is, as you say, 189 00:10:12,270 --> 00:10:15,830 S2: citizenship and the rights of citizenship. And when a public 190 00:10:15,830 --> 00:10:18,830 S2: servant was answering these questions a month ago in estimates, 191 00:10:19,070 --> 00:10:22,830 S2: not just citizenship but identity, and that's tied up with 192 00:10:22,830 --> 00:10:25,230 S2: being Australian. That's a right we all have. You turn 193 00:10:25,230 --> 00:10:27,470 S2: up to an embassy overseas, you've lost your passport or 194 00:10:27,470 --> 00:10:30,390 S2: it's been stolen or whatever. You're entitled to a passport 195 00:10:30,390 --> 00:10:33,430 S2: as a citizen. And these people are no different women 196 00:10:33,429 --> 00:10:34,190 S2: and children. 197 00:10:34,390 --> 00:10:37,030 S1: Yeah that's right. Well, and as as we were talking 198 00:10:37,030 --> 00:10:39,830 S1: about earlier, the children are entitled to Australian citizenship, even 199 00:10:39,830 --> 00:10:42,630 S1: though not born in Australia. Some of them because they 200 00:10:42,630 --> 00:10:46,189 S1: were born to Australian citizens overseas. Talk to me about 201 00:10:46,190 --> 00:10:49,150 S1: there's one woman we've now learned who is subject to 202 00:10:49,190 --> 00:10:51,710 S1: what is called a temporary exclusion order, which prevents her 203 00:10:51,710 --> 00:10:55,190 S1: from returning home to Australia for the next two years, 204 00:10:55,190 --> 00:10:57,990 S1: whether or not she has a passport. So she even 205 00:10:57,990 --> 00:10:59,710 S1: if she can get out of Syria and out of 206 00:10:59,710 --> 00:11:01,990 S1: this horrible camp, she won't be able to come home. 207 00:11:02,070 --> 00:11:04,469 S1: What are the grounds for those orders? And why is 208 00:11:04,470 --> 00:11:06,510 S1: it that one woman has been selected out of this 209 00:11:06,510 --> 00:11:08,550 S1: cohort that are all a bit sort of suspect if 210 00:11:08,590 --> 00:11:11,030 S1: you like, to be prevented from coming home, but the 211 00:11:11,030 --> 00:11:12,310 S1: others are free to do so. 212 00:11:13,270 --> 00:11:15,870 S2: We're all sort of people who are interested in this 213 00:11:15,910 --> 00:11:19,950 S2: kind of speculating about that at the moment. The it's 214 00:11:19,950 --> 00:11:22,870 S2: a national security law. It was introduced under the Morrison government. 215 00:11:22,870 --> 00:11:27,510 S2: Labour had some real objections to it, including constitutional objections 216 00:11:27,510 --> 00:11:30,630 S2: at the time, but ended up backing it. It's it's 217 00:11:30,670 --> 00:11:34,430 S2: a temporary way that the government can exclude people who 218 00:11:34,470 --> 00:11:37,470 S2: they believe might be a national security threat, so might 219 00:11:37,470 --> 00:11:40,510 S2: be involved in an extremist group or organization, or might 220 00:11:40,510 --> 00:11:42,990 S2: be planning some kind of terrorist act or, you know, 221 00:11:42,990 --> 00:11:46,790 S2: an associative terrorists. It's that it's about it's like that. 222 00:11:47,190 --> 00:11:49,590 S2: It's kind of at the far end of of what 223 00:11:49,590 --> 00:11:54,590 S2: you'd put people's culpability. Um, and it's it's only temporary. 224 00:11:54,630 --> 00:11:57,830 S2: It doesn't override the what we were talking about before 225 00:11:57,830 --> 00:12:01,270 S2: the rights of citizenship, but it's sort of intended as 226 00:12:01,270 --> 00:12:04,720 S2: a pause on there being allowed back into the country 227 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:06,680 S2: so that the government can figure out what to do. 228 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:09,880 S2: Now they are challengeable. This is this law has never 229 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:13,040 S2: been challenged in the High Court. Those constitutional questions that 230 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,959 S2: were raised in 2019, they still exist. And this may 231 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,720 S2: be a test case to challenge it, but nevertheless, it's 232 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:22,640 S2: kind of right out there on the edge of national 233 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:26,440 S2: security legislation. And this is, you know, this is for 234 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:28,800 S2: a group of people that the government knows quite well. 235 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,680 S2: They've had, you know, in one spot, they've been able 236 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,080 S2: to talk to their families and figure out what their 237 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,040 S2: stories are and what have you for seven years. So 238 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:41,520 S2: to apply it to one particular woman, um, is bold. 239 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,120 S2: I can't answer the other part of your question. Who 240 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:50,040 S2: is she? What's her particular story? Because the government won't say. Yeah. 241 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:53,959 S2: Tony Burke has given some details about her, but they 242 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:55,280 S2: haven't identified her. 243 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,320 S1: Yeah. I mean, presumably the intelligence agencies have been all over, 244 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:01,520 S1: you know, the families of these women and sort of 245 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:05,040 S1: their communities and the background from which they come. It's 246 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,040 S1: just interesting. It is interesting to sort of wonder what 247 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,680 S1: in particular this woman has done, whether there's fresh intelligence 248 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:13,400 S1: or it's based on the reasons or her affiliation with 249 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:17,280 S1: ISIS when she went over to Syria. Paul, I want 250 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,080 S1: to ask you about the broader political context. This is 251 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,760 S1: such an interesting story in itself. It raises so many 252 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:25,120 S1: questions about what it means to be Australian and what 253 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:27,960 S1: Australian citizenship means, but it is unfolding at a time 254 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,400 S1: when there is a focus on Islamic extremism post Bondi. 255 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:35,080 S1: The opposition is about to release its immigration policy and 256 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,040 S1: we have the rise, the surging rise of One Nation 257 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:41,280 S1: and Pauline Hanson, of course, making comments this week saying 258 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,360 S1: there are no good Muslims. And more recently she's come 259 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,679 S1: out and said that Lakemba, which is a heavily Muslim 260 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:51,960 S1: area in southwest Sydney, is not a safe place and 261 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:56,600 S1: that other Australians don't feel welcome there. Connected or not connected, 262 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,760 S1: the Lakemba mosque has now received, you know, horrific death 263 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:02,800 S1: threats after those comments were made. Might to start with 264 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,480 S1: what is? What have coalition members said about Pauline Hanson's 265 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:07,839 S1: Islamaphobic comments? 266 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,760 S3: Yeah, I do wonder if this week and the reaction 267 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,760 S3: to Hanson's comments on there being no good Muslims, which 268 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,200 S3: she slightly backtracked a couple of days later. Under under 269 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,080 S3: a lot of pressure. And Barnaby Joyce is not backed 270 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,560 S3: her in. Her newest recruit, Matt Canavan, a nationals far 271 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,000 S3: right senator, is really slammed Hanson and said this is 272 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,360 S3: proof she can't lead a major party. I do wonder 273 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,360 S3: if this week will be looked back at and perhaps 274 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,480 S3: this prediction will not come true at all. But I 275 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:37,840 S3: do wonder if this will be seen as one of 276 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,960 S3: the first weeks where scrutiny was really turned on One 277 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:44,600 S3: Nation after a period of months in which they've been 278 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,360 S3: not really closely scrutinised. There's been a halo on them 279 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:49,880 S3: and they've got a lot of positive media attention, and 280 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,880 S3: their polling has been surging off the back of immigration 281 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:56,440 S3: concern even pre Bondi but particularly post Bondi. And I 282 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:00,520 S3: wonder if the commentary will shift after this week to 283 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:05,080 S3: be slightly more critical to. diminish this idea that Hansen 284 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,960 S3: has changed, that she's a more moderate person now, that 285 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,760 S3: she's more in touch with the mainstream. So we'll wait 286 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,120 S3: and see. But on the on the broader context, in 287 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,440 S3: terms of how the Prime Minister in particular is talking 288 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,840 S3: about ISIS brides this week, we call them ISIS brides. 289 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,560 S3: But as James Patterson and the opposition calls out points out, 290 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,680 S3: some of them might have gone merely as associates or 291 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,560 S3: unwilling partners, but others went with an intent to be 292 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:32,360 S3: part of this movement. So I think that the term 293 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:36,360 S3: is slightly misleading and also maybe even slightly sexist. But 294 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,000 S3: in terms of the context of what the Prime Minister's 295 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,200 S3: saying this week, I think there's a link to be 296 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,920 S3: drawn between how the Prime Minister is talking about ISIS families, 297 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,800 S3: how Chris Minns, the New South Wales premier, has dealt 298 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:53,000 S3: with pro-Palestinian protests, and how Peter Malinauskas, another right faction 299 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,760 S3: labor leader, dealt with the Adelaide Writers Festival issue. And 300 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,240 S3: in all of those cases, there was a debate around 301 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,690 S3: rule of law and esoteric rights, around freedom of speech, 302 00:16:02,690 --> 00:16:07,530 S3: freedom of association and constitutional rights for these ISIS families, 303 00:16:07,530 --> 00:16:10,730 S3: and the kind of majority instinct to say from a 304 00:16:10,770 --> 00:16:14,410 S3: mainstream Labour leader to say, no, we don't quite want 305 00:16:14,450 --> 00:16:18,490 S3: to emphasize those rights or conventions. We want to reflect 306 00:16:18,490 --> 00:16:20,690 S3: the view of the majority, which are which is that 307 00:16:20,690 --> 00:16:25,970 S3: these views or, or, uh, or rights or the, the, 308 00:16:26,770 --> 00:16:30,530 S3: the viewpoint of the advocates who back these kind of, uh, more, 309 00:16:30,530 --> 00:16:34,450 S3: more radical positions or protest movements is not what a 310 00:16:34,490 --> 00:16:37,450 S3: mainstream Labour government wants to be associated with. And they're 311 00:16:37,450 --> 00:16:40,290 S3: taking the risk of rubbing up against the rule of 312 00:16:40,290 --> 00:16:44,450 S3: law to express that majority viewpoint. And that obviously brings 313 00:16:44,450 --> 00:16:48,370 S3: them into conflict with legal experts, potentially with the High 314 00:16:48,370 --> 00:16:50,570 S3: Court in the case of the use of these temporary 315 00:16:50,570 --> 00:16:53,210 S3: exclusion orders. But if you look around the world as well, 316 00:16:53,250 --> 00:16:56,650 S3: I mean, Keir Starmer, other, other centre left leaders are 317 00:16:57,210 --> 00:17:02,650 S3: taking really quite striking steps to counter protest movements and uh, 318 00:17:02,650 --> 00:17:06,170 S3: counter extremist groups because they've made a determination that that's 319 00:17:06,170 --> 00:17:11,050 S3: where majority opinion is. There is a hardening of attitudes 320 00:17:11,050 --> 00:17:13,290 S3: towards immigration across the Western world. And I think that's 321 00:17:13,290 --> 00:17:14,609 S3: what we're seeing play out here. 322 00:17:14,890 --> 00:17:18,010 S1: Yeah. But I want to ask you for your reflections 323 00:17:18,010 --> 00:17:21,970 S1: on the sort of One Nation coalition stance here and 324 00:17:21,970 --> 00:17:24,410 S1: how they how the coalition and in particular, the new 325 00:17:24,690 --> 00:17:30,730 S1: Liberal Party leadership differentiates itself from one nation and perhaps 326 00:17:30,730 --> 00:17:35,129 S1: distances itself from these very, very hostile to general Muslim 327 00:17:35,130 --> 00:17:39,450 S1: population comments that Hanson has made. How does it differentiate itself, 328 00:17:39,490 --> 00:17:43,130 S1: while also, I suppose, throwing a bone to or showing 329 00:17:43,130 --> 00:17:46,010 S1: some sympathy for the people who adhere to those views, 330 00:17:46,010 --> 00:17:48,850 S1: or who switched their vote from liberal to one nation 331 00:17:48,850 --> 00:17:52,210 S1: because they can't alienate those people because they want them 332 00:17:52,210 --> 00:17:54,530 S1: back to the Liberal Party. How do they toe that line? 333 00:17:56,010 --> 00:17:59,370 S2: Well, uh, perhaps if I could tell them that they 334 00:17:59,369 --> 00:18:01,570 S2: would pay me some money to be a consultant for them. 335 00:18:01,609 --> 00:18:04,850 S2: It's it's difficult for them to do. Super difficult. And 336 00:18:04,850 --> 00:18:07,810 S2: Paul's right I think I think what he's describing is 337 00:18:07,810 --> 00:18:10,930 S2: a move rightward of the center of gravity of politics. 338 00:18:10,930 --> 00:18:16,730 S2: So the um, and immigration linked to housing actually is 339 00:18:16,730 --> 00:18:19,010 S2: one of those key, one of the key things, like 340 00:18:19,050 --> 00:18:21,930 S2: the link between a lack of housing and a lack 341 00:18:21,930 --> 00:18:24,930 S2: of young people being able to get ahead with immigration 342 00:18:24,930 --> 00:18:30,369 S2: is a global trope. It's driven far right movements in Europe. Um, 343 00:18:30,369 --> 00:18:34,129 S2: it's driving, you know, Nigel Farage to present similar problems 344 00:18:34,130 --> 00:18:37,130 S2: to the Tories as one Nation is to the Liberals 345 00:18:37,130 --> 00:18:40,810 S2: and Nationals here, and Albanese and others are reflecting that 346 00:18:40,810 --> 00:18:44,090 S2: they are pushing rightward with where they see the center 347 00:18:44,090 --> 00:18:47,970 S2: of gravity going. And, you know, the expression of that 348 00:18:47,970 --> 00:18:50,530 S2: is on the streets with the marches, March for Australia 349 00:18:50,530 --> 00:18:55,250 S2: rallies that we've seen. And they are very much anti-immigration rallies. 350 00:18:55,770 --> 00:18:59,370 S2: And I think, you know, Albanese and others are certainly 351 00:18:59,490 --> 00:19:03,500 S2: Taylor and the Liberal Party with Angus Taylor's comments this 352 00:19:03,500 --> 00:19:06,620 S2: week about immigration and bad immigrants and people coming from 353 00:19:06,619 --> 00:19:12,460 S2: bad countries and so forth, is designed to whistle at 354 00:19:12,500 --> 00:19:17,100 S2: those particular dogs because they think that's where the electorate 355 00:19:17,140 --> 00:19:18,940 S2: has moved to or is moving to. 356 00:19:18,980 --> 00:19:21,420 S1: And of course, Angus Taylor and the liberals are about 357 00:19:21,420 --> 00:19:24,660 S1: to put out their immigration policy. We did have this 358 00:19:24,660 --> 00:19:28,060 S1: week a leaked immigration policy that was apparently Susanne Liese, 359 00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:32,420 S1: the now defunct opposition leader's policy that she was going 360 00:19:32,420 --> 00:19:36,180 S1: to put out. And that did notably have exclusions of 361 00:19:36,180 --> 00:19:41,660 S1: immigrants from Islamic extremists controlled regions of 13 countries. So, 362 00:19:41,940 --> 00:19:44,619 S1: you know, Libya, Egypt, Lebanon, not the whole country, just 363 00:19:44,619 --> 00:19:49,140 S1: certain areas within. So basically, I mean, it was a 364 00:19:49,140 --> 00:19:56,700 S1: ban on Muslim immigrants from particular areas where terrorism is rife. Paul, 365 00:19:56,700 --> 00:19:59,620 S1: do we have any sense of whether the Angus Taylor 366 00:20:00,100 --> 00:20:04,140 S1: led Liberal Party will put out a similar immigration policy 367 00:20:04,140 --> 00:20:05,659 S1: with bands from regions. 368 00:20:05,700 --> 00:20:08,740 S3: Yeah, this was a kind of hilariously absurd moment earlier 369 00:20:08,740 --> 00:20:11,459 S3: this week where a few days after Sussan Ley was toppled, 370 00:20:11,460 --> 00:20:13,899 S3: people close to her leaked to our newspaper and a 371 00:20:13,900 --> 00:20:16,460 S3: couple of others this migration plan that she was going 372 00:20:16,500 --> 00:20:20,179 S3: to release this week. It was quite hardline. It probably 373 00:20:20,180 --> 00:20:22,500 S3: would have been tested in the High Court, and it 374 00:20:22,500 --> 00:20:24,420 S3: would have been a serious chance of it falling over. 375 00:20:24,780 --> 00:20:28,380 S3: And it was an attempt by her allies to say, look, 376 00:20:28,420 --> 00:20:30,820 S3: Taylor is going to shift to the right on migration. 377 00:20:30,820 --> 00:20:33,020 S3: They're going to start countering One Nation. But we were 378 00:20:33,020 --> 00:20:34,379 S3: going to do the same thing if you just gave 379 00:20:34,380 --> 00:20:36,700 S3: us some more time. But then the absurd part was 380 00:20:36,700 --> 00:20:40,820 S3: that the right wing Home Affairs frontbencher Jonno Duniam and 381 00:20:40,820 --> 00:20:43,260 S3: the immigration spokesman Paul Scarr, who's not very right wing, 382 00:20:43,700 --> 00:20:45,780 S3: came out and said they'd never seen this document. 383 00:20:45,780 --> 00:20:49,060 S1: So they're either they're either sort of being slightly disingenuous 384 00:20:49,060 --> 00:20:52,219 S1: or they're they were so uninterested in the immigration policy 385 00:20:52,220 --> 00:20:54,179 S1: that was going to be released next, next week that 386 00:20:54,180 --> 00:20:55,179 S1: they hadn't read it. 387 00:20:55,340 --> 00:20:57,459 S3: Possibly. But I think it did. It did show it 388 00:20:57,460 --> 00:21:00,699 S3: was it was a perfect encapsulation of the existing trend, 389 00:21:00,700 --> 00:21:03,700 S3: which was Sussan Ley trying to pre-empt where her right 390 00:21:03,700 --> 00:21:07,700 S3: wing would go. Just continually shifting that way and not 391 00:21:07,700 --> 00:21:09,620 S3: really standing up for the values that she put in 392 00:21:09,619 --> 00:21:12,780 S3: her first speech around maintaining centrist values, but just on 393 00:21:12,820 --> 00:21:15,100 S3: where debates in the West are going on migration and batch, 394 00:21:15,100 --> 00:21:17,179 S3: I take your point fully and agree there is there 395 00:21:17,220 --> 00:21:19,700 S3: is clearly dog whistling going on, and there's no doubt 396 00:21:19,700 --> 00:21:23,540 S3: that far right bad actors are using this in their cause. 397 00:21:23,580 --> 00:21:26,379 S3: But I think it's worth pointing out that there are 398 00:21:26,380 --> 00:21:30,020 S3: lots of centre left governments picking up sentiment in non 399 00:21:30,460 --> 00:21:33,100 S3: racially motivated parts of the community on this, on this 400 00:21:33,100 --> 00:21:35,139 S3: issue as well. And a really good example is the 401 00:21:35,140 --> 00:21:38,140 S3: Canadian government under Justin Trudeau, who's kind of been a 402 00:21:38,619 --> 00:21:41,460 S3: beacon of the of the left in the past decade 403 00:21:41,460 --> 00:21:45,100 S3: or two. In 2022, he determined that there was no 404 00:21:45,140 --> 00:21:50,179 S3: housing crisis, crisis in infrastructure and just generally the the 405 00:21:50,220 --> 00:21:53,179 S3: Canadian society was feeling pretty uneasy about how the country 406 00:21:53,180 --> 00:21:57,139 S3: was headed. He drastically cut immigration in the last two 407 00:21:57,140 --> 00:22:00,260 S3: quarters of last year under Mark Carney, who's kept the 408 00:22:00,260 --> 00:22:03,070 S3: same policies in place. They actually had negative population growth 409 00:22:03,070 --> 00:22:06,310 S3: in Canada, house prices have gone down by 22% and 410 00:22:06,310 --> 00:22:09,190 S3: the centre left government there, the Liberal Party, they're called, 411 00:22:09,230 --> 00:22:11,870 S3: talks about getting back in control of the borders. Keir 412 00:22:11,910 --> 00:22:15,030 S3: Starmer is in the same vein. Albanese is using similar 413 00:22:15,030 --> 00:22:17,990 S3: language now, so I do wonder if it's a kind 414 00:22:17,990 --> 00:22:22,110 S3: of revolutionary moment in Western politics where some of these 415 00:22:22,510 --> 00:22:25,150 S3: talking points are no longer far right talking points. They're 416 00:22:25,150 --> 00:22:27,669 S3: becoming much more mainstream and potentially with the support of 417 00:22:27,670 --> 00:22:28,350 S3: the electorate. 418 00:22:28,790 --> 00:22:31,190 S1: I guess, where I'm interested in the sort of I 419 00:22:31,190 --> 00:22:34,310 S1: agree that it's become almost like a bipartisan position and 420 00:22:34,310 --> 00:22:37,270 S1: with very sort of sensible logic behind it. I mean, 421 00:22:37,310 --> 00:22:39,830 S1: if you believe in sovereignty, you believe in sovereignty, and 422 00:22:39,830 --> 00:22:41,750 S1: you believe that we should be able to control our borders. 423 00:22:41,750 --> 00:22:45,070 S1: But I just wonder, I'm sort of more interested, I suppose, in, 424 00:22:45,070 --> 00:22:49,790 S1: in where that rhetoric that anti-immigrant or immigration rhetoric falls 425 00:22:49,790 --> 00:22:52,750 S1: into more one nation territory, which is actually we just 426 00:22:52,750 --> 00:22:56,230 S1: don't want immigrants from certain countries, and we don't like 427 00:22:56,230 --> 00:22:59,550 S1: certain sections of the population who are here. And that 428 00:22:59,550 --> 00:23:02,030 S1: seems to me to be a real borderland between some 429 00:23:02,030 --> 00:23:06,030 S1: sections of the coalition right wing, perhaps, and the One 430 00:23:06,030 --> 00:23:09,390 S1: Nation support group. But just quickly tell us about that. 431 00:23:09,390 --> 00:23:12,830 S1: You talked before about the March for Australia rallies in Melbourne. 432 00:23:12,830 --> 00:23:15,150 S1: You've attended a couple of those. What did you see 433 00:23:15,190 --> 00:23:18,070 S1: at those rallies? What kinds of people were there? What 434 00:23:18,070 --> 00:23:19,950 S1: kind of behaviour was witnessed. 435 00:23:20,270 --> 00:23:23,550 S2: At the first rally I went to last year? That 436 00:23:23,550 --> 00:23:25,550 S2: was the one that was led by neo-Nazis. And when 437 00:23:25,550 --> 00:23:27,909 S2: I say neo-Nazis, I'm not using a, you know, a 438 00:23:27,950 --> 00:23:32,109 S2: euphemism or an allegory. They are guys who wear H.H. 439 00:23:32,390 --> 00:23:35,510 S2: Heil Hitler on their shirts. Right? So these guys goosestep 440 00:23:35,510 --> 00:23:39,710 S2: and salute Nazi salute. They led the rally. They the 441 00:23:39,710 --> 00:23:42,429 S2: rally moved to literally to their drumbeat. They had a 442 00:23:42,430 --> 00:23:46,190 S2: drummer to move the rally around the city. Since then, 443 00:23:46,230 --> 00:23:48,350 S2: they've kind of under the hate speech laws. They've kind 444 00:23:48,350 --> 00:23:52,109 S2: of disbanded. But in the rally I went to recently, 445 00:23:52,470 --> 00:23:55,190 S2: that was that was held around Australia Day. They were 446 00:23:55,190 --> 00:23:57,390 S2: still very much in evidence, the same personnel, they were 447 00:23:57,390 --> 00:24:00,350 S2: just in mufti this time. They were harder to recognize. 448 00:24:00,350 --> 00:24:03,149 S2: They were dispersed, but they were there and the rally 449 00:24:03,150 --> 00:24:06,430 S2: was a lot smaller this time. And despite it being 450 00:24:06,430 --> 00:24:09,390 S2: Australia Day, and I think that perhaps the reporting around 451 00:24:09,390 --> 00:24:13,830 S2: the Nazis had put some of the more mainstream people off. 452 00:24:14,350 --> 00:24:17,630 S2: But yeah, it's very white, it's very outer suburban. And 453 00:24:17,630 --> 00:24:21,430 S2: some of the rhetoric is incredibly hardline. I heard numerous 454 00:24:21,430 --> 00:24:25,910 S2: racial slurs, aggressive, nasty, nasty stuff. 455 00:24:26,310 --> 00:24:28,910 S1: You, um, you sent me a video of that you'd 456 00:24:28,950 --> 00:24:31,710 S1: taken at the rally. Can you just describe for listeners 457 00:24:31,710 --> 00:24:34,910 S1: what was on that video? I was really shocked by it. 458 00:24:35,070 --> 00:24:38,470 S2: Yeah. There are a couple of kids, as police might say, 459 00:24:38,510 --> 00:24:40,750 S2: of African appearance, who were sort of walking around with 460 00:24:40,750 --> 00:24:44,670 S2: a microphone and a and a camera doing some kind 461 00:24:44,670 --> 00:24:47,630 S2: of social media thing and trying to interview March for 462 00:24:47,630 --> 00:24:52,429 S2: Australia participants. And a bunch of the marchers had gathered 463 00:24:52,430 --> 00:24:58,390 S2: around them, yelling aggressively, send them back! Chanting, send them back. 464 00:24:58,750 --> 00:25:02,389 S4: Send them back, send them back, send them back, send 465 00:25:02,390 --> 00:25:02,710 S4: them back. 466 00:25:02,710 --> 00:25:06,350 S2: And then using a variety of racial slurs, which we 467 00:25:06,350 --> 00:25:09,709 S2: can't really use. But one of them, multiple, multiple times, 468 00:25:09,710 --> 00:25:13,869 S2: was the N word. It was quite distressing. We we 469 00:25:13,869 --> 00:25:16,709 S2: put it up on, we tried to bleep it and 470 00:25:16,710 --> 00:25:19,310 S2: put it up online to show people what was going on. 471 00:25:19,310 --> 00:25:23,070 S2: But the you know, the whole thing was a bleep basically. 472 00:25:23,070 --> 00:25:26,230 S2: So we took it back down again. It's it's disturbing vision. 473 00:25:26,230 --> 00:25:29,510 S2: And uh I hate to say it, but One Nation 474 00:25:29,510 --> 00:25:32,270 S2: was addressing that rally as was a couple of kind 475 00:25:32,270 --> 00:25:36,750 S2: of Nazi affiliated people. So you know, we I think 476 00:25:36,750 --> 00:25:39,270 S2: we all agree that the center of political gravity has 477 00:25:39,270 --> 00:25:42,190 S2: moved right on this issue. But the further right you move, 478 00:25:42,230 --> 00:25:46,910 S2: the more you put people like you kind of privileged 479 00:25:46,910 --> 00:25:49,350 S2: people like that who are who are right on the fringe. 480 00:25:49,350 --> 00:25:52,150 S2: And I think that's we're at a slightly dangerous moment 481 00:25:52,150 --> 00:25:52,710 S2: on this issue. 482 00:25:52,750 --> 00:25:56,830 S1: Yeah, certainly. That's right. Happening openly and apparently legally on 483 00:25:56,830 --> 00:26:00,070 S1: the streets of Melbourne, that two boys of African appearance 484 00:26:00,070 --> 00:26:06,200 S1: are being rounded upon, yelled at, racially vilified and intimidated 485 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,879 S1: in a very, very hostile way. It's scary stuff. Guys, 486 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,560 S1: we've run out of time and you've been so interesting 487 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:14,960 S1: to talk to, and we'd love to have you back 488 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,520 S1: on again as things unfold. So thank you and thanks, Paul. 489 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:19,879 S3: Thanks so much, guys. Thanks, bash. 490 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:21,720 S2: Thanks. Thanks guys. It's been great. 491 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:30,639 S1: You can read all of our political news on our 492 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:37,160 S1: websites theage.com.au or SMS. Today's episode was produced by Kai 493 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,240 S1: Wong with help from Debbie Harrington and Cormac Lally. Our 494 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,640 S1: executive producer is Tammy Mills and our podcasts are overseen 495 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,919 S1: by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. Before you go, follow 496 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:53,040 S1: Inside Politics and leave us a review on Apple or Spotify. 497 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,879 S1: I'm Jacqueline Maley. Thank you for listening.