1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,160 S1: Hi, it's Samantha Selinger Morris here, and I'm the host 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,560 S1: of the Morning Edition. We're bringing you the best episodes 3 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:10,760 S1: of 2025 before your Morning Edition team returns next week. 4 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,440 S1: With the tragic death of a wellness influencer after the 5 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:18,439 S1: birth of her child at home in Melbourne, the practice 6 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:23,400 S1: of free birthing was thrust into the spotlight. In this episode, 7 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:27,000 S1: senior writer Wendy Tuohy takes us through the nuances of 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:30,080 S1: home birthing a woman's right to choose where she has 9 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:37,360 S1: her baby and why free birthing is seen as so radical. So, Wendy, 10 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,000 S1: can you take us through what a free birth actually 11 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:42,599 S1: is and what role a doula plays in these types 12 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:45,680 S1: of births? Because I imagine many listeners might be like myself. 13 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,200 S1: They're familiar with what a home birth is. They might 14 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:50,800 S1: associate that with having like a nurse or a midwife 15 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,600 S1: there to help. But free birthing is something else quite entirely, 16 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:55,160 S1: isn't it? 17 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:59,320 S2: Yes, free birth is the choice to have your baby 18 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:04,260 S2: usually at home with no medical registered medical practitioner present. 19 00:01:04,540 --> 00:01:08,060 S2: So you don't have a registered midwife or any other 20 00:01:08,060 --> 00:01:11,100 S2: trained clinician. You may have just your partner. You might 21 00:01:11,100 --> 00:01:13,660 S2: be alone. Some women like to be completely alone. They 22 00:01:13,660 --> 00:01:16,740 S2: find anyone being there is an interruption to the flow 23 00:01:16,740 --> 00:01:20,500 S2: of their birth, or is a so-called intervention in their birth. 24 00:01:20,500 --> 00:01:24,100 S2: But often it's the partner and and a support person. Uh, 25 00:01:24,100 --> 00:01:29,780 S2: and that support person is primarily there for comfort, emotional, physical, 26 00:01:29,819 --> 00:01:33,700 S2: so-called maybe spiritual comfort. I shouldn't be cynical about that. 27 00:01:33,700 --> 00:01:36,979 S2: Spiritual comfort during birth is a wonderful thing. Uh, your 28 00:01:36,980 --> 00:01:39,300 S2: spirit can be under quite a lot of duress, but 29 00:01:39,300 --> 00:01:44,540 S2: it's a birth with very, very absent medical intervention. Often 30 00:01:44,540 --> 00:01:48,140 S2: women have so-called wild births in the lead up to 31 00:01:48,180 --> 00:01:52,380 S2: a free birth, where they have no prenatal or postnatal 32 00:01:52,380 --> 00:01:56,340 S2: medical attention, either because they trust the baby, they trust 33 00:01:56,340 --> 00:02:00,060 S2: their own body. The difference between home birth and free 34 00:02:00,060 --> 00:02:05,210 S2: birth is very large. Home birth is supported by major 35 00:02:05,210 --> 00:02:10,970 S2: Australian maternity hospitals. Two registered medical practitioners must attend. It 36 00:02:10,970 --> 00:02:14,290 S2: is considered to be a safe practice for low risk women. 37 00:02:14,690 --> 00:02:17,210 S1: Wow, this is so interesting to me, especially as someone 38 00:02:17,210 --> 00:02:20,290 S1: who's had three children and I've never actually heard of this. 39 00:02:20,530 --> 00:02:23,730 S1: And unfortunately, we are talking about this for a really 40 00:02:23,730 --> 00:02:26,690 S1: sad reason, because there's actually been a series of tragic 41 00:02:26,690 --> 00:02:30,450 S1: deaths of Australian mothers and babies as a result of rebirthing. 42 00:02:30,889 --> 00:02:33,090 S1: So maybe you can just begin by telling us about 43 00:02:33,090 --> 00:02:35,810 S1: one case that really got a lot of attention. And 44 00:02:35,810 --> 00:02:38,530 S1: this is the death just last week of a Melbourne 45 00:02:38,530 --> 00:02:41,530 S1: wellness influencer. Can you just take us through the details 46 00:02:41,530 --> 00:02:42,489 S1: of what happened? 47 00:02:43,370 --> 00:02:48,090 S2: Yes. Well, very sadly, and many people are still very 48 00:02:48,330 --> 00:02:51,050 S2: distressed about this in Melbourne and probably around the country. 49 00:02:51,090 --> 00:02:55,169 S2: A lovely, radiant person who many people followed for their, 50 00:02:55,450 --> 00:03:01,610 S2: you know, gorgeous and warm and wholesome nutrition advice, has 51 00:03:01,750 --> 00:03:05,829 S2: had a free birth at home with her partner husband present, 52 00:03:06,070 --> 00:03:09,669 S2: but she had the birth of her baby son Axel, 53 00:03:10,030 --> 00:03:12,630 S2: and after the birth she had what is not a 54 00:03:12,630 --> 00:03:16,989 S2: super uncommon experience, which is a postpartum hemorrhage. That's when 55 00:03:17,030 --> 00:03:19,630 S2: quite a lot of blood is being lost and it 56 00:03:19,630 --> 00:03:23,270 S2: can be life threatening. She did go to Frankston Hospital 57 00:03:23,270 --> 00:03:27,590 S2: from her home and unfortunately, even despite surgery, she was 58 00:03:27,590 --> 00:03:30,389 S2: not able to be saved. But her little boy survived 59 00:03:30,389 --> 00:03:32,750 S2: and is now being raised by her husband as a 60 00:03:32,750 --> 00:03:33,510 S2: single dad. 61 00:03:33,790 --> 00:03:37,270 S1: I mean, it's absolutely devastating. She was only 30, as 62 00:03:37,270 --> 00:03:41,350 S1: I understand it, and she died only hours after a 63 00:03:41,350 --> 00:03:43,950 S1: reported free birth. Like you've said in her home where 64 00:03:43,950 --> 00:03:49,030 S1: a so-called birthing influencer was reportedly involved. So maybe you 65 00:03:49,030 --> 00:03:51,950 S1: can just tell me what a birthing influencer is and 66 00:03:51,950 --> 00:03:53,470 S1: how big of a role do you think that the 67 00:03:53,470 --> 00:03:56,990 S1: rise of social media and the philosophy of these influencers 68 00:03:56,990 --> 00:04:00,589 S1: has actually played in this death, or possibly even in 69 00:04:00,590 --> 00:04:02,530 S1: other deaths related to free birthing. 70 00:04:02,810 --> 00:04:08,090 S2: Well, there have been other unregistered birthing workers, sometimes known 71 00:04:08,090 --> 00:04:11,970 S2: as birth keepers or birth advocates, in court this year 72 00:04:11,970 --> 00:04:15,930 S2: in New South Wales. It's an increasingly unfortunate and high 73 00:04:15,930 --> 00:04:20,890 S2: profile phenomenon that people are influenced to do a free birth. 74 00:04:20,890 --> 00:04:23,170 S2: But if they have believed what they're told, that their 75 00:04:23,170 --> 00:04:26,770 S2: body has the wisdom, the body has the power. They 76 00:04:26,810 --> 00:04:29,450 S2: are designed to do this, and they can carry it 77 00:04:29,450 --> 00:04:33,170 S2: off solo and without medical intervention. That is the message 78 00:04:33,210 --> 00:04:37,890 S2: being very vigorously portrayed. There's also a very negative and 79 00:04:38,089 --> 00:04:41,850 S2: frightening narrative being portrayed on social media that if you 80 00:04:41,850 --> 00:04:45,170 S2: go into hospital or have engagement with doctors, they or 81 00:04:45,210 --> 00:04:48,770 S2: even midwives who are referred to as midwives, you will 82 00:04:48,770 --> 00:04:53,810 S2: lose your agency over your very important experience of birth. 83 00:04:53,890 --> 00:04:56,730 S2: So there's a lot of scary language. A lot of 84 00:04:56,730 --> 00:04:58,490 S2: it is not fact based. 85 00:04:59,570 --> 00:05:02,010 S3: Join me as I give birth to my fourth baby 86 00:05:02,010 --> 00:05:02,840 S3: at home. 87 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,440 S4: To birth my baby free and in my own power. 88 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,880 S5: Women's bodies are actually designed to grow in birth babies. 89 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:12,960 S5: Who would have thought? However, through the industrialization of birth, 90 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:14,440 S5: we've been led to believe. 91 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:19,600 S6: I felt safest being alone. I had had some really 92 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,640 S6: powerful dreams. The night after I gave birth to my firstborn. 93 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:27,000 S2: I was looking at a doula training academy website yesterday, 94 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:29,200 S2: and one of their stock images they've used is a 95 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:31,560 S2: pregnant woman and her partner both flipping the bird at 96 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:35,760 S2: the camera. Being how we regard medical intervention, you know, 97 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:39,800 S2: or doctors. And it's it's very divisive content. It's not 98 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:44,000 S2: always safe content. Some of it is absolutely great. They 99 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,960 S2: stay in their lane. They say we're there to support 100 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:49,640 S2: you emotionally. We are not there to give clinical advice. 101 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,839 S2: The problem is some of it strays into clinical territory. 102 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:55,600 S2: They're not trained to execute. And that is when big 103 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:56,719 S2: problems arise. 104 00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,400 S1: And I know that you wrote in your piece that 105 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:03,000 S1: doctors working in maternity hospitals say that they're increasingly treating 106 00:06:03,140 --> 00:06:06,940 S1: devastating complications to mothers and babies harmed by free birth. 107 00:06:06,940 --> 00:06:08,900 S1: So what sort of complications are they seeing? 108 00:06:09,420 --> 00:06:14,100 S2: Well, they're seeing people come into hospital, so-called in extremis. 109 00:06:14,140 --> 00:06:17,740 S2: One very senior obstetrician said to us last week, meaning 110 00:06:17,940 --> 00:06:21,140 S2: they are at death's door. They are in a gravely 111 00:06:21,140 --> 00:06:25,460 S2: life threatening situation. Let's, for example, say someone tries to 112 00:06:25,460 --> 00:06:27,740 S2: have a free birth from the breech position. Of course, 113 00:06:27,740 --> 00:06:30,140 S2: it's not impossible. And women have done this, you know, 114 00:06:30,180 --> 00:06:33,740 S2: in years gone by. But now it's not recommended because 115 00:06:33,740 --> 00:06:36,940 S2: of what we know. And so a baby might get 116 00:06:36,940 --> 00:06:40,460 S2: some oxygen deprivation that can lead to some brain damage 117 00:06:40,460 --> 00:06:44,339 S2: or other complications. A woman might have a haemorrhage. You know, 118 00:06:44,500 --> 00:06:46,420 S2: there might be a problem with the placenta. There are 119 00:06:46,420 --> 00:06:49,620 S2: so many things that unfortunately can go wrong with birth. 120 00:06:49,620 --> 00:06:54,020 S2: While it is something we are indeed built to do. Uh, 121 00:06:54,020 --> 00:06:57,620 S2: I've been told by numerous people that one of the 122 00:06:57,620 --> 00:07:00,740 S2: most dangerous times in your life is when you give birth, 123 00:07:00,740 --> 00:07:04,560 S2: and another is when you are being born. So really, 124 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:08,320 S2: given we have so much help and support, you would 125 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:12,680 S2: wonder why people are at this terrible situation where despite 126 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:17,040 S2: their best wishes and plans, either themselves or their baby, 127 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:21,120 S2: is in a life threatening situation and being given very 128 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:22,840 S2: intensive emergency treatment. 129 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,520 S1: And I'm just wondering, you know, I guess, how common 130 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:29,200 S1: free birthing is. Like, is it really a fringe practice? Because, 131 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,480 S1: you know, I was reading the comments section on the 132 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:36,160 S1: post of that woman, Stacey Warnock, who sadly died following 133 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:38,040 S1: what we understand as a free birth. And there was 134 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:41,520 S1: lots of comments in the section by people worrying about 135 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,679 S1: free birthing. And, you know, one woman wrote I am so, 136 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,240 S1: so sorry for your loss. My daughter is planning on 137 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,720 S1: a home birth in March and I'm so worried. So 138 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:50,960 S1: how common is this? 139 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,880 S2: Home birth itself is still only estimated to be 2% 140 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:59,360 S2: of births in Australia. That's doubled since Covid, so it's 141 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:03,200 S2: still a small amount, but it is definitely increasing in popularity. 142 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,710 S2: It's considered a safe option if handled with the appropriate 143 00:08:06,750 --> 00:08:10,910 S2: trained clinical staff present. It's increasingly popular after Covid because 144 00:08:10,950 --> 00:08:14,230 S2: in Covid, sometimes partners weren't allowed or people were frightened 145 00:08:14,270 --> 00:08:17,230 S2: that partners weren't allowed. So there's also a lot more 146 00:08:17,230 --> 00:08:19,470 S2: awareness of birth trauma now after the New South Wales 147 00:08:19,470 --> 00:08:21,830 S2: birth trauma inquiry, and a lot more people are coming 148 00:08:21,830 --> 00:08:25,070 S2: and talking about the harms done to their body during 149 00:08:25,070 --> 00:08:27,630 S2: birth and and during processes, they didn't feel like they 150 00:08:27,630 --> 00:08:31,030 S2: had consent or given consent for or being properly informed about. 151 00:08:31,110 --> 00:08:34,870 S2: So it's very understandable. Women are looking for ways in 152 00:08:34,870 --> 00:08:37,110 S2: order to have birth on their terms like that. No 153 00:08:37,110 --> 00:08:40,870 S2: one's questioning that right at all. Free birth is still 154 00:08:40,910 --> 00:08:44,310 S2: a yes, a fringe practice. It is increasing, according to 155 00:08:44,350 --> 00:08:47,710 S2: the maternity academics that we have spoken with. It's still 156 00:08:47,710 --> 00:08:50,950 S2: a very small practice. The fear is that given social 157 00:08:50,950 --> 00:08:54,150 S2: media is is so active on this, and some of 158 00:08:54,150 --> 00:08:57,510 S2: the claims being made are outrageously terrifying for women about 159 00:08:57,510 --> 00:09:00,030 S2: what's going to happen to their body. The worry is 160 00:09:00,030 --> 00:09:01,550 S2: that it will become more popular. 161 00:09:01,790 --> 00:09:04,410 S1: You and I were discussing right before we started recording 162 00:09:04,730 --> 00:09:07,490 S1: how terrifying birth can be. You've had three children. I 163 00:09:07,490 --> 00:09:10,530 S1: have three children. I gave birth to my kids in hospital, 164 00:09:10,890 --> 00:09:14,250 S1: and I had an experience like, frankly, most women I know, 165 00:09:14,290 --> 00:09:16,650 S1: even though I had people helping me there, which was 166 00:09:16,650 --> 00:09:21,449 S1: just the absolute sheer terror of non-stop contractions. They're squeezing 167 00:09:21,450 --> 00:09:24,650 S1: you like a vise. I definitely had that fleeting thought, like, 168 00:09:24,690 --> 00:09:27,530 S1: am I going to die? So are you surprised that 169 00:09:27,530 --> 00:09:30,930 S1: women are not scared? I guess to give birth completely alone? 170 00:09:30,929 --> 00:09:33,250 S1: Because I frankly can't imagine how terrifying it would be 171 00:09:33,250 --> 00:09:37,290 S1: to give birth without having trained medical professionals right there. 172 00:09:37,929 --> 00:09:41,490 S2: Well, look, it doesn't surprise me from the point of 173 00:09:41,490 --> 00:09:45,690 S2: view that there are still cultures where this happens. And also, 174 00:09:45,690 --> 00:09:47,610 S2: it doesn't surprise me from the point of view that 175 00:09:47,610 --> 00:09:52,850 S2: the free birthing philosophy we've been able to discover articulated 176 00:09:52,850 --> 00:09:56,210 S2: by people is that death is a natural part of life. 177 00:09:56,210 --> 00:10:00,330 S2: We mustn't demonize death. We must accept that it happens, 178 00:10:00,370 --> 00:10:04,590 S2: honor it. Uh, it's a spiritual transition as well, etc., etc.. 179 00:10:04,590 --> 00:10:08,790 S2: So the language is we know that babies are sick 180 00:10:08,790 --> 00:10:12,030 S2: in hospital as well. It doesn't surprise me also because 181 00:10:12,030 --> 00:10:14,830 S2: there's a general anti-science vibe out there as, as as 182 00:10:14,830 --> 00:10:19,310 S2: people know, some people call themselves sovereign birthers, meaning I 183 00:10:19,350 --> 00:10:22,230 S2: am the sovereign of my birth. I do not accept 184 00:10:22,230 --> 00:10:25,270 S2: anyone else's right to be be involved with me. We 185 00:10:25,270 --> 00:10:28,430 S2: know that's a whole movement, generally in society as well. 186 00:10:28,710 --> 00:10:32,230 S2: And look, a lot of women are just incredibly idealistic 187 00:10:32,270 --> 00:10:35,510 S2: about what their body can do, what their body should do, 188 00:10:35,550 --> 00:10:39,230 S2: and what they're psychologically prepared for and physically prepared for. 189 00:10:39,230 --> 00:10:42,510 S2: And it is illegal activity. It's completely legal. You are 190 00:10:42,510 --> 00:10:45,470 S2: allowed to do it. What's not okay is when people 191 00:10:45,470 --> 00:10:48,230 S2: hold themselves out as having more clinical skills, and create 192 00:10:48,230 --> 00:10:51,830 S2: the idea in your mind that should there be a hemorrhage, 193 00:10:52,110 --> 00:10:55,750 S2: they know how to manage that. So it doesn't surprise 194 00:10:55,750 --> 00:10:58,510 S2: me at all, because also women have had like I 195 00:10:58,510 --> 00:11:02,430 S2: think 4000 women made submissions to the New South Wales 196 00:11:02,429 --> 00:11:05,890 S2: Birth Trauma Inquiry, and some of those stories. A lot 197 00:11:05,890 --> 00:11:09,170 S2: of those stories are extremely distressing. And if you've had 198 00:11:09,170 --> 00:11:12,530 S2: a traumatic first birth, I completely understand why you would 199 00:11:12,530 --> 00:11:16,050 S2: want to be in more control in your second or 200 00:11:16,050 --> 00:11:18,490 S2: subsequent births. Like, I'm not surprised by any of it. 201 00:11:18,490 --> 00:11:21,890 S2: It's just sad that the harms being done are terrible 202 00:11:21,890 --> 00:11:26,569 S2: and irreversible, and also that information being portrayed is wrong 203 00:11:26,570 --> 00:11:29,170 S2: and not factual and in fact, dangerous. 204 00:11:34,490 --> 00:11:35,370 S1: We'll be right back. 205 00:11:44,250 --> 00:11:45,730 S7: And you mentioned right before recording. 206 00:11:45,730 --> 00:11:48,689 S1: A really interesting cultural factor, which is at play here, 207 00:11:48,850 --> 00:11:51,770 S1: which relates to women, you know, really wanting agency over 208 00:11:51,770 --> 00:11:54,970 S1: their bodies. And I guess the global crackdown that we 209 00:11:54,970 --> 00:11:57,290 S1: have all seen on women's rights. So tell us how 210 00:11:57,290 --> 00:11:58,410 S1: this is working here. 211 00:11:58,809 --> 00:12:02,970 S2: Yeah. And look, women are aware that in some parts 212 00:12:02,970 --> 00:12:07,240 S2: of the world cough the United States of America, their 213 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,800 S2: reproductive rights that they thought they had fought for and 214 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:15,040 S2: won are being wound back. And women are naturally and 215 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:21,240 S2: sensibly sceptical about being backed into corners by patriarchal frameworks. 216 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:26,720 S2: And birth is an incredibly spiritual physical activity, as you know, 217 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:30,120 S2: it's a very important activity. That is a turning point 218 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,800 S2: for many women, a transition, uh, and they do not 219 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,120 S2: want to take the risk of being in the hands 220 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,600 S2: of somebody whose philosophy that does not align with theirs. 221 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:42,960 S2: There's a lot of sort of feminist language used in 222 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:47,480 S2: the birth space about empowerment, about rights. Uh, and it 223 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:51,240 S2: is it's passionately expressed. And it is there's some truth 224 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,480 S2: in it. You know, people talk about a thing called 225 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:57,880 S2: obstetric violence, which is a contested term, but it sort 226 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,560 S2: of means what people feel is non-consensual, what people feel 227 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:06,540 S2: might be violating them, um, or their Independent decision making 228 00:13:06,540 --> 00:13:10,740 S2: or the boundaries of their informed choice. And because there's 229 00:13:10,740 --> 00:13:12,820 S2: been so much more awareness about this as well on 230 00:13:12,820 --> 00:13:17,140 S2: social media, women are wanting to, quote, stand in their 231 00:13:17,140 --> 00:13:21,580 S2: power and own their their choices. And one of the 232 00:13:21,580 --> 00:13:27,179 S2: discussions had often in the influencer circle is about radical responsibility. 233 00:13:27,420 --> 00:13:31,939 S2: I am taking radical responsibility for my own outcome and 234 00:13:31,940 --> 00:13:35,059 S2: my baby's outcome. I care more than anyone else about 235 00:13:35,059 --> 00:13:38,340 S2: the outcome of this, and for my baby. And I 236 00:13:38,340 --> 00:13:41,860 S2: have a right to be radically responsible for what happens. 237 00:13:41,860 --> 00:13:46,300 S2: And I choose that. And you cannot really, in the 238 00:13:46,300 --> 00:13:50,060 S2: current climate, especially tell women, oh, no, actually you don't 239 00:13:50,059 --> 00:13:54,180 S2: have those those rights. As I say, it's when someone 240 00:13:54,179 --> 00:13:57,580 S2: steps into that space and says, well, you can have 241 00:13:57,580 --> 00:14:00,140 S2: a middle path because I know what to do in 242 00:14:00,140 --> 00:14:02,340 S2: a crisis. There is the problem. 243 00:14:02,380 --> 00:14:04,540 S1: Fair enough. And so I guess, tell us, how have 244 00:14:04,540 --> 00:14:10,079 S1: health authorities and maternity professionals reacted to these alarming rates 245 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:13,319 S1: of mothers and babies dying, in particular through free birthing. 246 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:18,679 S2: Well it's fascinating. It took the death of Stacy Hatfield, 247 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:23,880 S2: also known as Stacy Warnick, to really get everyone very 248 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,440 S2: fired up late last week after they were the first 249 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,840 S2: to come out. The health practitioner regulation agency, they said, look, 250 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:35,160 S2: because these birth keepers are not registered, we don't have 251 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,840 S2: jurisdiction over them. But our midwifery board and nursing and 252 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,200 S2: midwifery board is working to work out what we can do, 253 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:45,760 S2: given they're not registered. So we can't actually do anything 254 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,000 S2: other than issue the odd prohibition order when one is 255 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:53,000 S2: caught crossing over out of their scope. Um, but that 256 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,240 S2: board is very activated now and trying to work out 257 00:14:55,240 --> 00:15:00,000 S2: how it can intervene. And then the Ranzcog, the obstetricians 258 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,080 S2: professional body and also the Australian College of Midwives, wrote 259 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,080 S2: to every health minister in the country. They want the 260 00:15:06,150 --> 00:15:14,750 S2: South Australian legal requirements for doulas and birth keepers, i.e. untrained, unregistered, medically. 261 00:15:15,110 --> 00:15:18,989 S2: They want laws copying the South Australian system, which introduced 262 00:15:18,990 --> 00:15:23,070 S2: fines of up to $30,000 and or jail terms of 263 00:15:23,110 --> 00:15:27,550 S2: up to one year for any birth worker whose unregistered 264 00:15:27,550 --> 00:15:32,350 S2: who does clinical practice. And they outlined 19 practices which 265 00:15:32,390 --> 00:15:36,070 S2: exist in South Australian law already that should only be 266 00:15:36,070 --> 00:15:38,990 S2: done by registered medical practitioners. So they're trying to make 267 00:15:38,990 --> 00:15:42,390 S2: it safer for women by saying anyone who's not registered 268 00:15:42,390 --> 00:15:45,230 S2: cannot do any of these 19 things. Take the baby's 269 00:15:45,230 --> 00:15:48,510 S2: heart rate. Manage transition in labor. Manage any of the 270 00:15:48,510 --> 00:15:52,830 S2: three stages of labor. So currently, New South Wales and Victoria, 271 00:15:52,870 --> 00:15:56,150 S2: the health ministers have both said we're looking at it federally. 272 00:15:56,190 --> 00:15:58,230 S2: We haven't had a strong response yet, but I would 273 00:15:58,230 --> 00:15:59,670 S2: imagine there will be one. 274 00:15:59,910 --> 00:16:00,790 S7: And so just to make it. 275 00:16:00,790 --> 00:16:04,190 S1: Clear for listeners and in particular those who are either, 276 00:16:04,230 --> 00:16:06,810 S1: you know, going to be giving birth sometime in the future. 277 00:16:06,810 --> 00:16:09,970 S1: Perhaps they have loved ones who are. It's currently the 278 00:16:09,970 --> 00:16:14,050 S1: case that birth workers such as doulas. There's no requirements 279 00:16:14,050 --> 00:16:16,130 S1: for them to be registered and most don't have any 280 00:16:16,130 --> 00:16:17,570 S1: medical training. Is that right? 281 00:16:17,730 --> 00:16:22,410 S2: Yes. That's right. It is an area which is not registered. 282 00:16:22,690 --> 00:16:26,490 S2: There are no benchmarks for training. They can't register them 283 00:16:26,490 --> 00:16:30,210 S2: because there isn't recognised doula training. That could lead to 284 00:16:30,250 --> 00:16:35,290 S2: registration and oversight by Ahpra or the midwifery board. So 285 00:16:35,610 --> 00:16:40,290 S2: currently you're getting someone who's telling you they have conducted 286 00:16:40,290 --> 00:16:43,250 S2: or attended a certain number of births and they have 287 00:16:43,250 --> 00:16:47,610 S2: accumulated understanding. You know, they might rent you a pool 288 00:16:47,610 --> 00:16:50,970 S2: or something. But the truth is that should be the 289 00:16:50,970 --> 00:16:52,370 S2: absolute limit of it. 290 00:16:52,770 --> 00:16:55,290 S1: Wow. And so just to wrap up, you know where 291 00:16:55,330 --> 00:16:58,410 S1: to from here. And what's your opinion on whether doulas 292 00:16:58,410 --> 00:17:00,810 S1: should be allowed to continue to play a role in 293 00:17:00,810 --> 00:17:03,650 S1: birthing babies when it's already an offence? You know, as 294 00:17:03,650 --> 00:17:06,610 S1: you said, for any person other than a registered midwife 295 00:17:06,609 --> 00:17:10,510 S1: or medical practitioner to carry out clinical care during birth 296 00:17:10,510 --> 00:17:12,470 S1: in South Australia and in Britain. 297 00:17:13,310 --> 00:17:17,430 S2: Well, a lot of women who want to have low 298 00:17:17,430 --> 00:17:21,310 S2: intervention births and they are low risk would have every 299 00:17:21,310 --> 00:17:24,670 S2: reason to have a support person there and every right 300 00:17:24,670 --> 00:17:28,510 S2: to have whoever they want there with them. No one 301 00:17:28,510 --> 00:17:32,189 S2: is questioning that at all. I think having a loving, 302 00:17:32,190 --> 00:17:35,189 S2: caring person there who has some experience of birth and 303 00:17:35,190 --> 00:17:38,550 S2: can reassure you you're doing great and you know, now 304 00:17:38,550 --> 00:17:41,430 S2: we can see the baby's head or update you and 305 00:17:41,430 --> 00:17:46,350 S2: comfort you. That's fine. It's just there are outlying people 306 00:17:46,390 --> 00:17:52,990 S2: who are making a living from dangerous activities, who need 307 00:17:53,030 --> 00:17:55,350 S2: to be brought into line for the safety of women 308 00:17:55,350 --> 00:17:56,470 S2: and their babies. 309 00:18:00,270 --> 00:18:02,830 S1: Well, we're so lucky that your reporting in this space. 310 00:18:02,830 --> 00:18:06,149 S1: It's so, so important. So thank you so much, Wendy, 311 00:18:06,190 --> 00:18:07,030 S1: for your time. 312 00:18:07,460 --> 00:18:10,140 S2: You're very welcome. My colleague Henrietta Cooke has been doing 313 00:18:10,180 --> 00:18:12,340 S2: fantastic work in this area as well. 314 00:18:12,340 --> 00:18:19,460 S1: She certainly has. Thanks, Wendy. Today's episode of The Morning 315 00:18:19,460 --> 00:18:23,380 S1: Edition was produced by Josh towers with technical assistance by 316 00:18:23,380 --> 00:18:28,060 S1: Julia Carcasole. Our executive producer is Tami Mills. Tom McKendrick 317 00:18:28,060 --> 00:18:30,859 S1: is our head of audio. To listen to our episodes 318 00:18:30,859 --> 00:18:35,060 S1: as soon as they drop, follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify, 319 00:18:35,060 --> 00:18:38,660 S1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered 320 00:18:38,660 --> 00:18:42,780 S1: by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism, visit The Age 321 00:18:42,780 --> 00:18:48,100 S1: or smh.com.au. Subscribe. And to stay up to date, sign 322 00:18:48,100 --> 00:18:50,659 S1: up to our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a summary 323 00:18:50,660 --> 00:18:54,340 S1: of the day's most important news in your inbox every morning. 324 00:18:54,859 --> 00:18:58,460 S1: Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris, 325 00:18:58,619 --> 00:18:59,780 S1: thanks for listening.