1 00:00:01,600 --> 00:00:05,160 S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:10,200 S1: This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Seelinger Morris. It's Wednesday, 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:16,400 S1: December 3rd. New figures out on Monday show that the 4 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:21,520 S1: median house values in Sydney, Canberra and Brisbane have become, well, 5 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:24,520 S1: kind of insane. They're the sort of figures that make 6 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,480 S1: people who've been desperately saving to break into the housing 7 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:31,680 S1: market tear at their hair by the roots. But new 8 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:36,160 S1: research shows that allowing Australians to subdivide their properties could 9 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,760 S1: mean a million new homes being delivered in the nation's 10 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:45,680 S1: five largest capital cities. Today, senior economics correspondent Shane Wright 11 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:49,239 S1: on whether this solution, which has eased price pressures in 12 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:55,640 S1: New Zealand, could be accepted here. So, Shane, first off, 13 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,600 S1: can you just briefly remind us, I guess, just how 14 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:02,850 S1: dire the current housing crisis is and connected with that 15 00:01:02,850 --> 00:01:05,410 S1: just how behind the government is in building the homes 16 00:01:05,410 --> 00:01:08,330 S1: that it pledged to build by 2029. 17 00:01:08,770 --> 00:01:11,130 S2: Are there's so many different ways to measure the housing 18 00:01:11,370 --> 00:01:15,130 S2: stupidity of this country, be it the median house price, 19 00:01:15,170 --> 00:01:20,250 S2: which in Sydney is about 1.5 million, Australia's five capital 20 00:01:20,250 --> 00:01:23,610 S2: cities are in the top 20. Least affordable when you 21 00:01:23,610 --> 00:01:27,929 S2: measure them in terms of income required. In terms of 22 00:01:27,930 --> 00:01:31,850 S2: the number of homes we're building, the country needs about 23 00:01:32,090 --> 00:01:36,890 S2: 240,000 a year to be built. Since 2016, we've been 24 00:01:36,890 --> 00:01:40,130 S2: building on average about 180. Doesn't take long to work 25 00:01:40,130 --> 00:01:43,610 S2: out that there's a shortfall. The government has set itself 26 00:01:43,610 --> 00:01:47,850 S2: a target of 1.2 million homes between 2024 and middle 27 00:01:47,850 --> 00:01:51,130 S2: of 2029. We're a year into that. There are only 28 00:01:51,130 --> 00:01:55,770 S2: a lazy 60,000 behind on that target, although we actually can. 29 00:01:55,810 --> 00:01:57,330 S2: You can see that there's starting to be a bit 30 00:01:57,330 --> 00:02:01,169 S2: of movement in terms of investors and building companies wanting 31 00:02:01,170 --> 00:02:06,140 S2: to build, Of course, that's inflationary. And because if you 32 00:02:06,180 --> 00:02:09,019 S2: got you're chasing after building all these homes and we've 33 00:02:09,020 --> 00:02:11,980 S2: already started to see that there's been a lift in 34 00:02:12,100 --> 00:02:16,859 S2: housing construction inflation now during Covid, during the previous government's 35 00:02:16,860 --> 00:02:22,340 S2: HomeBuilder program, housing construction inflation hit 20%. So lots of 36 00:02:22,340 --> 00:02:25,620 S2: demand from people who got free money to go and 37 00:02:25,620 --> 00:02:31,180 S2: renovate their kitchens and their bedrooms, coupled with huge shortages 38 00:02:31,460 --> 00:02:36,060 S2: and supply disruption of everything from screws to timber. Some 39 00:02:36,060 --> 00:02:39,859 S2: of the other aspects of it is that technically we 40 00:02:39,860 --> 00:02:43,020 S2: build the largest homes in the world, so we've got big, 41 00:02:43,020 --> 00:02:47,900 S2: sprawling places, big sprawling cities which require a lot of infrastructure. 42 00:02:47,900 --> 00:02:50,419 S2: And mostly at the heart of it is actually the 43 00:02:50,419 --> 00:02:52,780 S2: stupidity that is the Australian housing market. 44 00:02:53,020 --> 00:02:55,220 S1: Now, many listeners are going to be like myself. I 45 00:02:55,220 --> 00:02:58,540 S1: think that they've never heard of the term gentle density. 46 00:02:58,580 --> 00:03:01,820 S1: It sounds pretty friendly. You've just written about it. So 47 00:03:01,820 --> 00:03:05,480 S1: what is gentle density and how might it actually help 48 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,640 S1: fix our country's housing price crisis? 49 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:12,040 S2: Gentle density this is a term that gets used in 50 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:17,160 S2: Britain a fair bit. Um, so it is, as we know, 51 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:21,720 S2: if we drive around any suburbs, you just see standalone 52 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:27,760 S2: homes on single blocks. Gentle density is saying, right, I 53 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,760 S2: have a my home here in suburban Canberra, I'm allowed 54 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,120 S2: to subdivide it and I can go for a dual 55 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:39,280 S2: occupancy without restriction. That's what we're talking about. You could 56 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:44,240 S2: go to a triple occupancy, but you're really restricting it 57 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:49,160 S2: to say 2 to 3 homes or 2 to 3 storeys. 58 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:52,600 S2: So that's the idea. If anyone who's been to Europe 59 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:54,880 S2: would understand, if you go into some of the the 60 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,760 S2: medieval cities, like the older ones, you can see that 61 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,920 S2: they are 3 or 4 storeys. Manhattan's actually an example 62 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,690 S2: where people walk up like a three, four, five story 63 00:04:05,690 --> 00:04:09,610 S2: walk up like that term. We're not quite to that level, 64 00:04:09,610 --> 00:04:14,490 S2: but just allowing people to build two homes on a 65 00:04:14,490 --> 00:04:18,250 S2: block that currently has one. As you can imagine, that 66 00:04:18,250 --> 00:04:21,250 S2: would greatly increase the amount of housing that you would have. 67 00:04:21,490 --> 00:04:25,650 S2: It would overcome the really strict planning laws that so 68 00:04:25,650 --> 00:04:30,369 S2: many councils have in this country. It's really aimed specifically 69 00:04:30,370 --> 00:04:37,250 S2: at those middle ring suburbs, um, like around Sydney, Brisbane, Melbourne, Perth, 70 00:04:37,250 --> 00:04:40,969 S2: where you can see they are large blocks, relatively close 71 00:04:40,970 --> 00:04:45,890 S2: to the city. But councils have just said no, that's it. Um, 72 00:04:46,250 --> 00:04:49,570 S2: but it comes at a huge cost. AKA the sprawling 73 00:04:49,570 --> 00:04:50,690 S2: size of our cities. 74 00:04:51,050 --> 00:04:53,050 S1: Okay. And so in real terms, I guess, what does 75 00:04:53,050 --> 00:04:56,289 S1: this mean for the amount of new builds and you know, 76 00:04:56,330 --> 00:04:58,970 S1: how they can actually be added to already existing suburbs? 77 00:04:58,970 --> 00:05:01,450 S1: Because as you've written, this is a model that was 78 00:05:01,490 --> 00:05:04,420 S1: actually introduced in New Zealand over a decade ago, right? 79 00:05:04,779 --> 00:05:08,260 S2: Yeah. Auckland went down this path because prices in Auckland 80 00:05:08,300 --> 00:05:12,620 S2: were climbing at the same pace as Sydney, like 15% 81 00:05:12,660 --> 00:05:17,700 S2: per annum. And Auckland went right. We're we're going down 82 00:05:17,700 --> 00:05:21,620 S2: a very different path. So you effectively say right, rather 83 00:05:21,620 --> 00:05:26,180 S2: than having a very prescriptive approach to planning, this is 84 00:05:27,140 --> 00:05:30,900 S2: very easy planning where you go right, the the default 85 00:05:30,900 --> 00:05:35,460 S2: position is yep, you can subdivide, not you can't subdivide. 86 00:05:35,460 --> 00:05:38,740 S2: And that it's a big change in the thought process 87 00:05:38,980 --> 00:05:42,940 S2: like here in Canberra. I live in a suburb, um, 88 00:05:43,180 --> 00:05:46,740 S2: very close to one of the centre of the the 89 00:05:47,500 --> 00:05:50,539 S2: urban centres of Canberra. The way the city is developed, 90 00:05:50,860 --> 00:05:56,179 S2: 100 100m away. A friend of mine, same suburb I 91 00:05:56,300 --> 00:06:00,460 S2: I'm allowed to subdivide my my block. He is not 92 00:06:01,140 --> 00:06:05,350 S2: a hundred yards and it's because of the prescriptions around 93 00:06:05,350 --> 00:06:09,110 S2: planning regulations in the act, and the act is is 94 00:06:09,390 --> 00:06:11,510 S2: a bit different to the rest of the country. It's 95 00:06:11,550 --> 00:06:12,830 S2: not as restrictive. 96 00:06:12,870 --> 00:06:15,270 S1: That's incredible. And so what would this actually mean for 97 00:06:15,270 --> 00:06:19,030 S1: house prices and those Australians who are absolutely struggling to 98 00:06:19,070 --> 00:06:21,550 S1: get a foot in the door of the property market? 99 00:06:22,070 --> 00:06:26,670 S2: Well, the suggestion is by Ceda's Research, which is the 100 00:06:26,670 --> 00:06:29,830 S2: Committee for the Economic Development of Australia, that it doesn't 101 00:06:29,830 --> 00:06:32,229 S2: assume everyone will do this because you don't have to 102 00:06:32,270 --> 00:06:35,750 S2: do it, but it's giving choice back to the landholder 103 00:06:35,750 --> 00:06:38,789 S2: as to what they can do. They assume, say, 1 104 00:06:38,790 --> 00:06:41,669 S2: in 4 go down this path. That's an extra million 105 00:06:41,670 --> 00:06:46,310 S2: homes over, say, 10 to 15 years. So you're lifting 106 00:06:46,310 --> 00:06:51,310 S2: supply by about 12% in Sydney, 15% in Melbourne. You 107 00:06:51,310 --> 00:06:54,550 S2: lift supply, you will have an impact on prices. And 108 00:06:54,589 --> 00:06:59,089 S2: the Auckland example, property prices there didn't increase by between 109 00:06:59,089 --> 00:07:03,670 S2: 15 and 27% as they would have otherwise done. That's 110 00:07:03,670 --> 00:07:07,880 S2: a huge saving for future New Zealanders. And this is 111 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:11,280 S2: Ceda's argument. This would be a saving for future Australians 112 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,800 S2: that they won't need mountains and mountains of cash. What 113 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,280 S2: is it? The average mortgage new mortgage in New South 114 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:24,640 S2: Wales now is $828,000. That's just stupid. That is stupid. Like, really? 115 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:28,120 S2: You can see 50 year mortgages if you keep pushing 116 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,680 S2: up prices, which requires higher debt, which then has a 117 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:35,600 S2: whole other economic effects that, uh, you and I are 118 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:36,960 S2: too silly to work out. 119 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,400 S1: Okay, well, that sounds like an absolute nightmare. Thanks for 120 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,800 S1: introducing that into our into our morning, uh, thought bubble here. 121 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,040 S2: I'm. I am just here to help, I tell you. 122 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,800 S1: Okay, so this gentle density thing, like, on on paper, 123 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:51,760 S1: it sounds great. You know, you've written that so often, 124 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,800 S1: planners and governments, you know, they focus on extreme solutions 125 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:58,960 S1: like high rise apartments or homes and sprawling outer suburbs 126 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:01,560 S1: where people don't necessarily want to be. But is there 127 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:05,460 S1: any potential downside to allowing property holders to subdivide their 128 00:08:05,460 --> 00:08:08,580 S1: home with few, if any, restrictions like could this backfire 129 00:08:08,580 --> 00:08:09,260 S1: in some way? 130 00:08:09,780 --> 00:08:13,420 S2: Look, I'm sure the the population of NIMBYs out there 131 00:08:13,420 --> 00:08:16,179 S2: would be upset by it. Like this is the problem. 132 00:08:16,180 --> 00:08:19,580 S2: I actually live across from a place that was subdivided 133 00:08:19,740 --> 00:08:22,180 S2: and there's a couple in my street which and it 134 00:08:22,380 --> 00:08:24,380 S2: does not worry me in the least. I may be 135 00:08:24,380 --> 00:08:27,820 S2: an outlier in terms of, you know, not thinking it's 136 00:08:27,820 --> 00:08:31,060 S2: end of days. If the number of residents in my 137 00:08:31,100 --> 00:08:34,780 S2: in my street effectively double over a ten, 15 year period. 138 00:08:34,780 --> 00:08:38,179 S2: But of course there there is a cost. Like you 139 00:08:38,220 --> 00:08:43,260 S2: can't deny that if you are putting more people into areas, say, 140 00:08:43,260 --> 00:08:47,180 S2: these middle suburbs, it does put a strain on infrastructure 141 00:08:47,179 --> 00:08:51,620 S2: which we may not have properly maintained over the last ten, 20, 142 00:08:51,660 --> 00:08:55,340 S2: 30 years. It does like if these people have children 143 00:08:55,820 --> 00:08:58,700 S2: straight off, you're going to put more kids into those schools, 144 00:08:58,700 --> 00:09:01,660 S2: the health services that are required in those areas. So 145 00:09:01,700 --> 00:09:05,590 S2: there is always some sort of impact. It's whether the 146 00:09:06,070 --> 00:09:12,150 S2: that cost is less than saying a huge expanse into 147 00:09:12,150 --> 00:09:15,550 S2: the wilds. What is it, Sydney? Sydney is now starting 148 00:09:15,550 --> 00:09:19,150 S2: at the Nepean River down near Picton. Uh, it is 149 00:09:19,150 --> 00:09:23,590 S2: a long, long way from the CBD. Like the infrastructure costs, 150 00:09:23,910 --> 00:09:27,309 S2: say the train lines or the roads or the new 151 00:09:27,309 --> 00:09:30,430 S2: schools that have to be built. But there's always that 152 00:09:30,429 --> 00:09:33,190 S2: extra cost that has to be considered and weighed up 153 00:09:33,190 --> 00:09:38,189 S2: against others. You've touched on, say, having huge towers, which 154 00:09:38,190 --> 00:09:41,550 S2: is upsets a lot of people. And and it is 155 00:09:41,550 --> 00:09:45,590 S2: understandable if you're living in a suburb, a small suburb, 156 00:09:45,590 --> 00:09:48,189 S2: around a small train line, and someone comes in and says, right, 157 00:09:48,190 --> 00:09:52,350 S2: we're going to build a 2030 storey tower, that would 158 00:09:52,390 --> 00:09:56,030 S2: absolutely make sense. And you're going, is there a better way? 159 00:09:56,030 --> 00:10:00,430 S2: But going to gentle density one, it's not as intimidating 160 00:10:00,429 --> 00:10:02,630 S2: for the local residents. Two it takes a lot of 161 00:10:02,630 --> 00:10:07,880 S2: pressure off to build such large residential blocks. 162 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:15,560 S1: We'll be right back. And this could be welcome news, right? 163 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:19,800 S1: Looking into next year, we've got some bleak foreshadowing, I think. 164 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,640 S1: Economists have already sort of forecast the chance of an 165 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:26,040 S1: interest rate rise. And you've reported on plans that are 166 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:31,160 S1: banking regulator might actually be tightening lending standards soon. Right. 167 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,760 S2: Yeah. Those things may actually work opposite to each other. 168 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:38,760 S2: They may take the banking approach. Said right, banks, you 169 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:43,240 S2: can't lend out as much cash to people who are 170 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:47,560 S2: taking out loans six times to their debt levels. This 171 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:51,400 S2: is almost certainly aimed at investors. And it's it's it's 172 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,200 S2: a it's not really at the housing market per se 173 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:56,600 S2: as a as as much as trying to stop banks 174 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:01,520 S2: doing silly things and creating a financial mess. That's how the, the, 175 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,280 S2: the apra's looking at it in terms of interest rates, 176 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:07,490 S2: it's no surprise as soon as the reserve Bank started 177 00:11:07,490 --> 00:11:12,610 S2: lifting cutting interest rates, house prices started to climb. Everyone knows, 178 00:11:12,610 --> 00:11:14,449 S2: including the reserve Bank knows. As soon as that was 179 00:11:14,450 --> 00:11:17,690 S2: going to happen, that started. It was always going to 180 00:11:17,730 --> 00:11:20,290 S2: build up pressure in the housing market. But the reserve 181 00:11:20,330 --> 00:11:23,890 S2: Bank can't think of just one asset class. It's trying 182 00:11:23,890 --> 00:11:25,810 S2: to think of the entire economy. So it's it's a 183 00:11:25,809 --> 00:11:29,210 S2: difficult job for them. That's partly why APRA then goes right, 184 00:11:29,250 --> 00:11:31,570 S2: will come up with these regulations to try and take 185 00:11:31,570 --> 00:11:37,210 S2: some pressure off the housing market. And but that another 186 00:11:37,250 --> 00:11:39,610 S2: this is another element of a very like if it 187 00:11:39,610 --> 00:11:41,610 S2: was a jigsaw puzzle of a mess of the Australian 188 00:11:41,610 --> 00:11:45,010 S2: property market, where into one of those puzzles that are 189 00:11:45,010 --> 00:11:47,250 S2: going to take up a small room like it's 4 190 00:11:47,250 --> 00:11:50,850 S2: or 5000 pieces, there are so many different elements. So 191 00:11:50,850 --> 00:11:52,490 S2: anyone who comes up to you and says, right, I've 192 00:11:52,490 --> 00:11:56,170 S2: got the silver bullet, you go, nah. Yeah, yeah, I've 193 00:11:56,170 --> 00:11:58,209 S2: got a bridge I can sell you because there are 194 00:11:58,210 --> 00:12:00,370 S2: so many parts to the problem in this country. 195 00:12:00,770 --> 00:12:02,690 S1: So I guess my next question has to be, what 196 00:12:02,690 --> 00:12:05,450 S1: are the chances that the state and territory governments are 197 00:12:05,450 --> 00:12:08,740 S1: going to put through this gentle density and allow it 198 00:12:08,740 --> 00:12:11,420 S1: to happen. Because, you know, as as you've taught me 199 00:12:11,420 --> 00:12:13,660 S1: in your many features, you know, this this is a 200 00:12:13,660 --> 00:12:16,500 S1: state issue with regards to who's, you know, allowing who 201 00:12:16,500 --> 00:12:17,540 S1: to build on land. 202 00:12:18,100 --> 00:12:20,780 S2: Yeah. So the men's government in New South Wales and 203 00:12:20,780 --> 00:12:25,020 S2: the Allen government in Victoria are really leading the country. 204 00:12:25,500 --> 00:12:30,220 S2: The cook government in WA is also looking at allowing 205 00:12:30,580 --> 00:12:35,500 S2: more density around, uh, train lines out there because they've 206 00:12:35,500 --> 00:12:39,179 S2: put so much money into their, their public transport network. 207 00:12:39,179 --> 00:12:44,060 S2: So there are signs that the states, particularly those under 208 00:12:44,059 --> 00:12:47,460 S2: the greatest pressure, have got we can't let it keep going. 209 00:12:47,900 --> 00:12:51,260 S2: The federal government, it wants to hit its target like 210 00:12:51,460 --> 00:12:54,380 S2: the fact that it's set at target, uh, like it 211 00:12:54,380 --> 00:12:58,340 S2: was in Jim Chalmers very first budget in 2022. It 212 00:12:58,340 --> 00:13:01,780 S2: was a recognition that the stupidity had to end. We 213 00:13:01,780 --> 00:13:05,820 S2: had to find ways to build more homes. Yes, they're 214 00:13:05,820 --> 00:13:09,430 S2: behind on their target, but it is now absolutely front 215 00:13:09,429 --> 00:13:12,230 S2: and center where you've got state governments also going. We 216 00:13:12,230 --> 00:13:16,710 S2: just we are hurting current population, but we're going to 217 00:13:16,710 --> 00:13:20,710 S2: hurt future generations if we don't get something under some 218 00:13:20,750 --> 00:13:24,350 S2: sort of change, because the current policy up until the 219 00:13:24,350 --> 00:13:28,550 S2: last year or two clearly wasn't working. Clearly not. 220 00:13:28,590 --> 00:13:31,190 S1: And as you said to me just before recording, and 221 00:13:31,190 --> 00:13:34,370 S1: you've written that the federal government is already offering $500 222 00:13:34,370 --> 00:13:38,150 S1: million to councils to help them provide necessary infrastructure for 223 00:13:38,150 --> 00:13:39,990 S1: new homes. And as you what did you call it 224 00:13:39,990 --> 00:13:43,790 S1: before we started recording? You said it's very clearly a bribe. 225 00:13:44,230 --> 00:13:47,150 S2: It's a bribe. Like they're like, we don't want to 226 00:13:47,150 --> 00:13:50,750 S2: dress it up. But look, this is how federal government, 227 00:13:50,750 --> 00:13:54,830 S2: because it doesn't have direct responsibility. So half a billion 228 00:13:54,870 --> 00:13:59,550 S2: towards local councils, $1 billion to state governments to try 229 00:13:59,550 --> 00:14:02,110 S2: and get things done in this area, like there's a 230 00:14:02,110 --> 00:14:07,610 S2: $900 million productivity fund which is aimed at like like 231 00:14:07,610 --> 00:14:10,250 S2: was it the Jim Chalmers is giving? I think it's 232 00:14:10,250 --> 00:14:13,890 S2: 1 or $2 million to the Northern Territory government to 233 00:14:13,929 --> 00:14:17,290 S2: do some planning regulation reform, which would allow Aldi to 234 00:14:17,330 --> 00:14:20,730 S2: go into Darwin to try and take some pressure off 235 00:14:20,730 --> 00:14:24,130 S2: grocery prices up there. All of this? Yep. You can 236 00:14:24,130 --> 00:14:28,050 S2: couch it up as innovative reform, you know, incentives. It's 237 00:14:28,050 --> 00:14:30,050 S2: a bribe. It's just a bribe. 238 00:14:30,090 --> 00:14:31,930 S1: Yeah. And I love that you that you sort of 239 00:14:31,970 --> 00:14:33,570 S1: are calling it the way you see it, because I 240 00:14:33,570 --> 00:14:36,610 S1: think it is a testament. A testament to the desperation. Right. 241 00:14:36,890 --> 00:14:39,810 S1: Presumably to the federal government, an awareness that this is, 242 00:14:39,810 --> 00:14:41,650 S1: like you say, the stupidity is going to end. 243 00:14:41,930 --> 00:14:44,570 S2: Well, Peter Dutton went to the last government last election 244 00:14:44,570 --> 00:14:50,490 S2: with a $5 billion bribe, um, to local councils to 245 00:14:50,530 --> 00:14:54,730 S2: help get their infrastructure in, especially in the outer suburbs. Built. Absolutely. 246 00:14:54,730 --> 00:15:01,050 S2: Makes sense because money talks to councils and to state governments. 247 00:15:01,090 --> 00:15:03,650 S2: It may be the one of the best ways to 248 00:15:03,690 --> 00:15:06,930 S2: get get their asses off, uh, off their chairs and 249 00:15:06,930 --> 00:15:07,570 S2: doing stuff. 250 00:15:08,460 --> 00:15:11,100 S1: Well, Shane, always a pleasure to have you. So thank 251 00:15:11,100 --> 00:15:12,660 S1: you so much for your time. 252 00:15:13,140 --> 00:15:14,780 S2: Always a pleasure to talk to you, Sammy. 253 00:15:22,300 --> 00:15:25,660 S1: Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself 254 00:15:25,660 --> 00:15:29,420 S1: and Josh towers, with technical assistance by Debbie Harrington. Our 255 00:15:29,420 --> 00:15:32,980 S1: executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is our head 256 00:15:32,980 --> 00:15:35,900 S1: of audio. To listen to our episodes as soon as 257 00:15:35,900 --> 00:15:39,780 S1: they drop, follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify, or 258 00:15:39,780 --> 00:15:44,420 S1: wherever you listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered by subscriptions, 259 00:15:44,420 --> 00:15:48,940 S1: so to support independent journalism, visit the page or smh.com.au. 260 00:15:51,220 --> 00:15:53,100 S1: And to stay up to date, sign up to our 261 00:15:53,100 --> 00:15:55,620 S1: Morning Edition newsletter to receive a summary of the day's 262 00:15:55,620 --> 00:15:59,900 S1: most important news in your inbox every morning. Links are 263 00:15:59,900 --> 00:16:04,260 S1: in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris, thanks for listening.