1 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:08,920 S1: Investigative reporter Nick McKenzie. S exposé of the criminal infiltration 2 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:12,520 S1: of the construction sector over a year ago prompted a 3 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:17,000 S1: slew of investigations, inquiries from federal and state governments and 4 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:22,320 S1: law enforcement around the country. The conclusions of those investigations 5 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:26,120 S1: now reveal the extent of that corruption and its findings 6 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:31,160 S1: are damning, including that CFMEU lawless behavior could have cost 7 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:36,400 S1: taxpayers $15 billion. And the Victorian state government knew of 8 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:40,520 S1: the problems but did not fix it. Drug trafficking and 9 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:45,400 S1: shocking sexual exploitation of women on major infrastructure sites are 10 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:50,479 S1: just some of the other claims. I'm Julia Karkazis and 11 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:53,120 S1: you're listening to Morning Edition from The Age and the 12 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:58,000 S1: Sydney Morning Herald. Today, Nick McKenzie on the serious questions 13 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:05,170 S1: the government must answer. Welcome back to the podcast, Nick. 14 00:01:05,610 --> 00:01:06,610 S2: Great to be with you. 15 00:01:07,250 --> 00:01:11,010 S1: Last week, corruption busting lawyer Jeffrey Watson released his landmark 16 00:01:11,010 --> 00:01:15,050 S1: report into the construction sector. But just to start off, 17 00:01:15,050 --> 00:01:17,929 S1: when we talk about corruption in the sector, what are 18 00:01:17,930 --> 00:01:20,690 S1: we talking about? Who are the main players in this story? 19 00:01:21,090 --> 00:01:26,050 S2: The heart of the corruption scandal involving the sector really 20 00:01:26,050 --> 00:01:29,530 S2: goes to government projects. So principally those funded by the 21 00:01:29,530 --> 00:01:33,450 S2: Victorian government and to a lesser extent, the Albanese government 22 00:01:33,450 --> 00:01:40,649 S2: and then all our listeners, taxpayers. Are these projects how 23 00:01:40,650 --> 00:01:45,330 S2: they were infiltrated by corrupt union officials in bed with 24 00:01:45,330 --> 00:01:50,170 S2: gangland figures and bikie gangs? Now, how did this corruption work? Well, 25 00:01:50,530 --> 00:01:54,130 S2: a couple of ways it occurred. Number one, you had 26 00:01:54,170 --> 00:01:57,810 S2: bikie gangs who would use corrupt union officials to place 27 00:01:57,850 --> 00:02:01,390 S2: many of their members in very lucrative roles on government sites. 28 00:02:01,390 --> 00:02:06,110 S2: So they got bikies earning $300,000 a year, sometimes more 29 00:02:06,110 --> 00:02:08,590 S2: than that, and sometimes for work. They didn't even have to. 30 00:02:08,630 --> 00:02:11,389 S2: On occasion, turn up for a pretty handy roadie for 31 00:02:11,389 --> 00:02:16,870 S2: a bikie. And then there's more orchestrated corruption involving subcontractors 32 00:02:16,910 --> 00:02:20,670 S2: owned by organised crime, or linked very closely to organised crime. 33 00:02:21,070 --> 00:02:25,350 S2: These subcontractors getting placed on the same or different government projects, 34 00:02:25,750 --> 00:02:29,350 S2: earning huge amounts of money. Care of these corrupt union 35 00:02:29,350 --> 00:02:32,630 S2: officials who are placing them on these government projects. Now 36 00:02:32,630 --> 00:02:35,190 S2: the listener should be saying to themselves, how on earth 37 00:02:35,230 --> 00:02:38,990 S2: can a corrupt union official force a person or a 38 00:02:38,990 --> 00:02:42,590 S2: company onto a government project? And therein goes to the 39 00:02:42,990 --> 00:02:46,150 S2: the really core part of this scandal, that is the 40 00:02:46,150 --> 00:02:49,070 S2: Union had such influence over these government sites. So the 41 00:02:49,070 --> 00:02:52,350 S2: bureaucrats running these government sites over the the big contractors 42 00:02:52,350 --> 00:02:55,670 S2: working on these government sites, they could force gangland entities 43 00:02:55,710 --> 00:02:58,520 S2: onto these projects and no one did much about it. 44 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:01,959 S1: And this is all over the country, right? 45 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,880 S2: It's all over the country, but it is happening at 46 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:09,160 S2: a grander scale or the worst scale in Victoria. Why 47 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:13,120 S2: is that? Well, the CFMEU and the most corrupt elements 48 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:17,720 S2: of it were at their worst in Victoria. Uh, the 49 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:23,679 S2: former leadership regime of the CFMEU, Victoria has been roundly outed, 50 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,320 S2: including most recently in the Queensland Commission of Inquiry into 51 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:31,959 S2: the Union as a really corrupt force. In fact, in 52 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,320 S2: words of one corruption expert who testified as a crime gang, 53 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:39,200 S2: and there was also once in a generation, a spending 54 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:41,880 S2: spree to upgrade Victoria's road and rail, known as the 55 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:45,200 S2: Big Build. And so combining those two elements is a 56 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:49,200 S2: huge honeypot of money, a corrupt union, lots of gangland 57 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:53,160 S2: figures seeking to get rich, and a government, a state government, 58 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:57,020 S2: in the words of corruption expert Geoffrey Watson SC, on 59 00:03:57,020 --> 00:03:59,540 S2: the stand this week at the Queensland Commission of Inquiry, 60 00:03:59,540 --> 00:04:01,500 S2: a government that was looking the other way, turning a 61 00:04:01,500 --> 00:04:05,580 S2: blind eye to corruption. And to that extent enabling or 62 00:04:05,580 --> 00:04:06,180 S2: fuelling it. 63 00:04:06,500 --> 00:04:08,900 S1: And what would you say about the way the big 64 00:04:08,900 --> 00:04:12,340 S1: build project has been run that makes it so vulnerable 65 00:04:12,340 --> 00:04:13,260 S1: to corruption? 66 00:04:13,940 --> 00:04:17,140 S2: Well, you can imagine if you're running your own house renovation, 67 00:04:17,779 --> 00:04:22,260 S2: you'd be wanting to know what your subcontractors, the person 68 00:04:22,260 --> 00:04:26,660 S2: doing your tiling and doing your carpentry were charging. Uh, 69 00:04:26,660 --> 00:04:29,820 S2: you'd be pretty keen to know if they were overcharging you. 70 00:04:30,180 --> 00:04:33,260 S2: And if they rocked up on a Harley Davidson in 71 00:04:33,260 --> 00:04:37,539 S2: bikie colours, you'd be especially concerned. Now it's times that 72 00:04:37,540 --> 00:04:40,539 S2: by many multiples. That's what was happening on the big build. 73 00:04:40,540 --> 00:04:44,859 S2: We had subcontractors sometimes run by bikie gangs, certainly linked 74 00:04:44,860 --> 00:04:47,979 S2: to bikie gangs linked to other gangland figures, charging well 75 00:04:47,980 --> 00:04:50,860 S2: over the odds, uh, getting work they should never have 76 00:04:50,860 --> 00:04:54,589 S2: got at a vast scale. I mean, there's bikie gangland 77 00:04:54,589 --> 00:04:57,109 S2: figures driving Ferraris around Victoria at the moment. Care of 78 00:04:57,110 --> 00:05:01,029 S2: the taxpayer thanks to that negligence, that failure to keep 79 00:05:01,070 --> 00:05:05,110 S2: contractors under control on these major, major sites. So why 80 00:05:05,110 --> 00:05:08,070 S2: was this happening? Uh, I mean, we still really haven't 81 00:05:08,070 --> 00:05:09,989 S2: got to the bottom of why the labor government didn't 82 00:05:09,990 --> 00:05:13,390 S2: protect public funds. We know they didn't. But why? It 83 00:05:13,390 --> 00:05:16,510 S2: wasn't because they wanted an ally in the CFMEU. Or 84 00:05:16,510 --> 00:05:19,710 S2: was it because they wanted the projects done on time? 85 00:05:19,750 --> 00:05:21,390 S2: I mean, at the end of the day, the projects 86 00:05:21,390 --> 00:05:24,429 S2: weren't done on time. The budgets were blown out and 87 00:05:24,430 --> 00:05:27,630 S2: relations with the CFMEU were poor. Geoffrey Watson SC, the 88 00:05:27,630 --> 00:05:30,870 S2: corruption expert and his expert testimony, has said his view 89 00:05:30,870 --> 00:05:33,950 S2: was that the government was seeking some sort of an 90 00:05:33,990 --> 00:05:36,710 S2: accord with the union, that it was ultimately scared of. 91 00:05:36,750 --> 00:05:40,710 S2: The unions industrial might was so great, the government didn't 92 00:05:40,710 --> 00:05:43,510 S2: know how to deal with it. And thought by passing 93 00:05:43,510 --> 00:05:46,310 S2: the problem on to major government contractors on these sites, 94 00:05:46,430 --> 00:05:48,590 S2: the problem was simply go away or disappear. And of 95 00:05:48,589 --> 00:05:49,469 S2: course it has not. 96 00:05:50,150 --> 00:05:54,969 S1: And Geoffrey Watson, he's just handed in this 18 month report. 97 00:05:55,010 --> 00:05:57,610 S1: What have been some of the more shocking allegations in 98 00:05:57,610 --> 00:06:01,770 S1: this report? There's been talk of sexual exploitation on work sites, 99 00:06:02,010 --> 00:06:04,810 S1: drug dealing. Can you go into some of that detail? 100 00:06:04,810 --> 00:06:05,730 S1: What have we learned? 101 00:06:06,010 --> 00:06:11,210 S2: I mean, it's hard to really describe or accurately portray 102 00:06:11,210 --> 00:06:16,409 S2: just how damning and explosive it is. It reads a 103 00:06:16,410 --> 00:06:19,890 S2: bit like a Hollywood script or something out of, you know, 104 00:06:19,930 --> 00:06:23,770 S2: The Wire or Breaking Bad. You had a bikie gangs 105 00:06:23,770 --> 00:06:28,170 S2: running amok, placing bikie gang members onto sites. There's allegations 106 00:06:28,170 --> 00:06:30,890 S2: that to get work on some big build sites, these 107 00:06:30,890 --> 00:06:34,810 S2: Victorian government sites, women had to perform sexual favors. There's 108 00:06:34,850 --> 00:06:39,010 S2: allegations that women on these sites were stripping for men 109 00:06:39,210 --> 00:06:43,690 S2: on site sheds. Uh, there's allegations described as credible in 110 00:06:43,690 --> 00:06:47,490 S2: Watson's report of drug trafficking, uh, on these sites at 111 00:06:47,490 --> 00:06:52,820 S2: a significant scale of bribery and corruption. The allegations of 112 00:06:52,820 --> 00:06:56,339 S2: bribery and corruption are very credible. People have gone on 113 00:06:56,339 --> 00:07:00,300 S2: the record. They have confirmed that they paid what looks 114 00:07:00,300 --> 00:07:03,500 S2: a lot like bribes, but certainly significant sums of money 115 00:07:03,700 --> 00:07:05,940 S2: to get access to the big build, to get the 116 00:07:05,940 --> 00:07:09,339 S2: union favour that was needed to win work on these sites. 117 00:07:09,339 --> 00:07:10,900 S2: These are people have gone on the record and said 118 00:07:10,900 --> 00:07:14,100 S2: they've done this. So it can be believed, a really 119 00:07:14,100 --> 00:07:18,580 S2: stunning set of allegations that amount to a really significant 120 00:07:18,620 --> 00:07:20,660 S2: heist on the public purse. 121 00:07:21,180 --> 00:07:22,860 S1: And one of the key figures in all of this 122 00:07:22,860 --> 00:07:26,620 S1: is Mick Gatto. Gatto is variously described as a mediator. 123 00:07:26,620 --> 00:07:29,740 S1: Listeners may remember he was a well-known figure in Melbourne's 124 00:07:29,740 --> 00:07:34,420 S1: notorious gangland war of the 2000. How has Watson described 125 00:07:34,420 --> 00:07:36,100 S1: his role in this industry? 126 00:07:36,540 --> 00:07:39,780 S2: Well, it must be said that Mick Gatto denies all wrongdoing. 127 00:07:40,180 --> 00:07:43,420 S2: And of the allegations and the conclusions of Watson that 128 00:07:43,420 --> 00:07:47,620 S2: I've just described. Gatto there's no suggestion from us that 129 00:07:47,620 --> 00:07:53,720 S2: he's involved in those allegations. But Watson's report does make 130 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:57,600 S2: damning conclusions about Mick Gatto, and we can talk about 131 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:07,000 S2: those because that report's been tabled in the commission of inquiry. Effectively, 132 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:10,560 S2: he calls Gatto a criminal. He says Gatto has been 133 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:15,360 S2: running a racket in Victoria's building industry, basically engaged in 134 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:20,960 S2: extortion and intimidation, forcing builders and building companies to pay 135 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,720 S2: significant sums of money to Gatto to deal with problems 136 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:28,239 S2: with the union or other building industry problems that sometimes 137 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:32,120 S2: would not existed if not for the very improper accord. 138 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:36,840 S2: A relationship between Gatto and the Union. A classic Mafia 139 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:40,560 S2: style racketeering is how Geoffrey Watson has depicted Gatto's role 140 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,520 S2: in the building industry. Again, this must be said, Gatto 141 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:45,440 S2: denies these allegations. 142 00:08:54,450 --> 00:08:55,370 S1: After the break. 143 00:08:56,770 --> 00:08:59,329 S2: Well, who was the minister most responsible for the big build? 144 00:08:59,330 --> 00:09:01,929 S2: It's the premier of Victoria, Jacinta Allan. There's been an 145 00:09:01,970 --> 00:09:05,530 S2: absolute absence of accountability down the government chain of command. 146 00:09:05,570 --> 00:09:09,089 S2: Not a single public servant and not a single politician 147 00:09:09,330 --> 00:09:11,809 S2: has been meaningfully held to account. 148 00:09:28,170 --> 00:09:31,130 S1: And so you've given us a snapshot of the corruption 149 00:09:31,130 --> 00:09:33,770 S1: taking place. But a big question in all of this, 150 00:09:33,770 --> 00:09:36,689 S1: and what you alluded to before is just how much 151 00:09:36,690 --> 00:09:41,250 S1: the labor government knew and when, because Watson's report does 152 00:09:41,250 --> 00:09:44,410 S1: suggest that ministers knew much more than they're letting on. 153 00:09:44,450 --> 00:09:45,290 S1: Is that right? 154 00:09:45,730 --> 00:09:50,059 S2: Absolutely suggests that, I mean, Watson concludes that not only 155 00:09:50,059 --> 00:09:53,340 S2: did the state government of Victoria have a duty to 156 00:09:53,380 --> 00:09:56,939 S2: know how the money was being spent and misused on 157 00:09:56,940 --> 00:09:59,740 S2: these government sites, but that it did know it was 158 00:09:59,740 --> 00:10:01,140 S2: being misspent and abused. 159 00:10:03,500 --> 00:10:07,340 S3: Union corruption on the island government's signature big build project 160 00:10:07,340 --> 00:10:10,500 S3: has cost Victorian taxpayers billions of dollars. 161 00:10:10,660 --> 00:10:15,699 S4: The CFMEU is accused of funnelling more than $15 billion 162 00:10:15,700 --> 00:10:20,220 S4: from Victorian taxpayers straight into the pockets of criminals. 163 00:10:20,260 --> 00:10:24,820 S3: With accusations sites were hotbeds for drug trafficking and even strippers. 164 00:10:24,860 --> 00:10:29,020 S4: All while the state government allegedly turned a blind eye. 165 00:10:30,580 --> 00:10:34,220 S2: The bureaucrats running these projects are overseeing these projects, knew 166 00:10:34,220 --> 00:10:38,300 S2: about this corruption and this impropriety, and the government itself 167 00:10:38,300 --> 00:10:41,100 S2: knew and chose to do nothing about it. And that 168 00:10:41,100 --> 00:10:44,220 S2: stands to absolute reason. I mean, there are many government 169 00:10:44,220 --> 00:10:47,200 S2: officials that have been involved in these mega projects. Uh, 170 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,400 S2: we know that there's reports of serious corruption, unlawful or 171 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:54,480 S2: improper behavior on many of these sites. On many occasions. 172 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:58,520 S2: So in some respects, it's a matter of of sheer logic, 173 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,840 S2: backed up by hard evidence that the government knew. What's 174 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,440 S2: very disturbing in Victoria is having established that the government 175 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,920 S2: did know. Where's the accountability in a Westminster system, if 176 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:13,760 S2: a minister presides over a series of corrupt projects? Responsibility 177 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:15,640 S2: should flow to that minister. Well, who was the minister 178 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,560 S2: most responsible for the big build? It's the premier of Victoria, 179 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:22,400 S2: Jacinta Allan. There's been an absolute absence of accountability down 180 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,280 S2: the government chain of command. Not a single public servant 181 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:29,960 S2: and not a single politician has been meaningfully held to account. 182 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:33,720 S2: And ultimately, there's growing calls for an independent inquiry to 183 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:38,520 S2: really lay out who knew what, when in government and 184 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,480 S2: if they did, if politicians, if public servants did, as 185 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:46,330 S2: Geoffrey Watson has concluded, indeed Now a vast amount of 186 00:11:46,330 --> 00:11:51,209 S2: this corruption was going on. Uh, then what's the appropriate penalty? Ah, 187 00:11:51,210 --> 00:11:53,250 S2: we live in a country where the poor are the 188 00:11:53,250 --> 00:11:56,610 S2: marginalized and indigenous person can be thrown in jail for 189 00:11:56,610 --> 00:11:59,850 S2: pinching a mars bar. Yet a politician can seemingly get 190 00:11:59,850 --> 00:12:04,250 S2: away with turning a blind eye or not stopping rorts 191 00:12:04,250 --> 00:12:08,450 S2: involving bikies and gangland figures worth billions of dollars. And 192 00:12:08,450 --> 00:12:10,010 S2: something's pretty rotten with that. 193 00:12:10,010 --> 00:12:12,890 S1: And what has Jacinta Allan said in response? 194 00:12:13,250 --> 00:12:16,010 S2: Well, Jacinta Allan has been very good at sticking to 195 00:12:16,410 --> 00:12:20,450 S2: her tried and tested lines. That is to say, she's 196 00:12:20,450 --> 00:12:24,930 S2: disturbed at this appalling conduct she doesn't support corruption and 197 00:12:24,929 --> 00:12:29,089 S2: reports of unlawful conduct should be always referred to the police. 198 00:12:29,090 --> 00:12:33,490 S5: When allegations were raised with me, they were referred to 199 00:12:33,530 --> 00:12:38,090 S5: the relevant agencies for their investigation and response. When that, 200 00:12:38,130 --> 00:12:38,570 S5: when that. 201 00:12:38,809 --> 00:12:42,170 S2: But that only goes so far. Police are very restricted 202 00:12:42,170 --> 00:12:44,670 S2: in what they can do when it comes to questions 203 00:12:44,670 --> 00:12:47,550 S2: of public service failure and of political failure. It's not 204 00:12:47,550 --> 00:12:49,390 S2: the job of the police to hold a politician to 205 00:12:49,429 --> 00:12:53,270 S2: account for stopping a bikie gang from rorting a government project. 206 00:12:53,470 --> 00:12:56,030 S2: It's the job of the political system, the media and 207 00:12:56,030 --> 00:13:00,349 S2: other entities to hold the political system, the parliament, politicians 208 00:13:00,350 --> 00:13:05,590 S2: to account. But ultimately we need the premier herself to 209 00:13:05,990 --> 00:13:08,830 S2: ensure there's full accountability, not just handball. The problem to 210 00:13:08,870 --> 00:13:12,030 S2: the police. So while the Premier does talk about the 211 00:13:12,030 --> 00:13:14,830 S2: need for there to be police involvement, she does make 212 00:13:14,830 --> 00:13:18,829 S2: clear that she's appalled by these shocking allegations and conclusions 213 00:13:18,830 --> 00:13:19,790 S2: of Geoffrey Watson. 214 00:13:19,830 --> 00:13:22,630 S5: The powers that sat with the federal government under the 215 00:13:22,670 --> 00:13:26,710 S5: under the industrial relations framework saw them appoint the federal 216 00:13:26,710 --> 00:13:30,310 S5: administrator who is weeding out this rotten culture and these 217 00:13:30,309 --> 00:13:31,270 S5: bad actors. 218 00:13:31,990 --> 00:13:34,630 S1: One of those claims, though, was that there's been a 219 00:13:34,630 --> 00:13:39,310 S1: cost to taxpayers of over $15 billion. Jacinta Allan said 220 00:13:39,309 --> 00:13:43,360 S1: that those claims were not well founded or properly tested. 221 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,120 S1: What do you make of her response to that claim 222 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:46,920 S1: in particular? 223 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,240 S2: Well, they've been made by credible people. Geoffrey Watson SC, 224 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:54,200 S2: a corruption expert and the general manager of the Fair 225 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:59,160 S2: Work Commission. Murray Furlong. So if the Premier's contention is 226 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:03,040 S2: they're not well founded or tested, let's test them. Let's 227 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,480 S2: get a credible analysis, at least according to the Premier 228 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:08,880 S2: and the government, as to the extent of the rorting. 229 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:14,140 S2: Victorians deserve that. I mean, whether it's $15 billion, $1 230 00:14:14,140 --> 00:14:18,880 S2: billion or $100 million or $50 million, every one of 231 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:22,640 S2: those dollars that's gone to organised crime, to bikie gangs, 232 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:26,000 S2: to corrupt union officials or corrupt companies. Is the dollar 233 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,120 S2: too much? So how much is it? We don't know 234 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:34,040 S2: because there's been no independent, thorough investigation and that's what's required. 235 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,400 S1: And how do you reflect on the administrator, Mark Irving's 236 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,320 S1: governance over the past few years? What has been achieved 237 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:42,940 S1: under his leadership. And is it enough? 238 00:14:43,180 --> 00:14:47,180 S2: Well, Irving's done some fearless and terrific things. He's sacked 239 00:14:47,180 --> 00:14:53,860 S2: many union officials. He's instituted reforms. He's sought to clean 240 00:14:53,860 --> 00:14:57,620 S2: up a rotten culture. He's placed some very good union 241 00:14:57,620 --> 00:15:01,900 S2: leaders back in charge of the CFMEU, albeit under administration. 242 00:15:02,540 --> 00:15:07,020 S2: But he's also and perhaps his power is limited. And 243 00:15:07,060 --> 00:15:10,740 S2: he's he's, uh, jurisdiction is limited, but he's also only 244 00:15:10,740 --> 00:15:14,380 S2: gone so far. Now, many would say it's not Mark 245 00:15:14,380 --> 00:15:19,060 S2: Irving's job to call out this political negligence and inaction 246 00:15:19,060 --> 00:15:22,940 S2: that others have, that ultimately the CFMEU corruption has not 247 00:15:22,980 --> 00:15:27,140 S2: operated in a vacuum. It's operated because of government inaction. 248 00:15:27,220 --> 00:15:32,460 S2: It's operated because of corporate corruption that's supported it. It's 249 00:15:32,700 --> 00:15:36,340 S2: operated because gangland figures and bikie gangs have been part 250 00:15:36,340 --> 00:15:40,390 S2: of these rackets now. Mark Irving has exposed some of that, 251 00:15:40,390 --> 00:15:43,910 S2: but certainly that's not gone far enough. Uh, Mark Irving 252 00:15:43,910 --> 00:15:49,310 S2: has been hesitant to call out labor, the state government, 253 00:15:49,310 --> 00:15:52,350 S2: the federal government for not doing more. He's gone some 254 00:15:52,390 --> 00:15:54,750 S2: of the way, but I think many would like to 255 00:15:54,750 --> 00:15:55,750 S2: see him go harder. 256 00:15:56,430 --> 00:15:59,070 S1: Do you think a royal commission would do anything here? 257 00:15:59,630 --> 00:16:02,350 S2: Well, there's been royal commission into the building industry in 258 00:16:02,350 --> 00:16:06,230 S2: the past. They've achieved some things but not achieved enough. 259 00:16:06,230 --> 00:16:08,830 S2: And that much is a fact. But in the absence 260 00:16:08,830 --> 00:16:12,230 S2: of any proper systems of accountability, in the absence of 261 00:16:12,230 --> 00:16:14,270 S2: any proper accounting for how much money has gone to 262 00:16:14,310 --> 00:16:17,430 S2: bikie gangs, in the absence of any politician being held 263 00:16:17,430 --> 00:16:21,550 S2: to account, in the absence of Mick Gatto being properly, 264 00:16:21,550 --> 00:16:24,070 S2: thoroughly investigated as to how far his reach into the 265 00:16:24,070 --> 00:16:27,630 S2: building industry has gone, in the absence of having a 266 00:16:27,630 --> 00:16:32,750 S2: single building company properly, thoroughly investigated for their role in 267 00:16:32,750 --> 00:16:36,750 S2: this alleged vast corruption, then what are we left with? 268 00:16:36,830 --> 00:16:39,770 S2: A Royal commission should be a last resort. There could 269 00:16:39,770 --> 00:16:43,250 S2: be some better mechanisms if the Labour Government of Victoria 270 00:16:43,290 --> 00:16:47,530 S2: or the Albanese government chose to institute them a closed 271 00:16:47,530 --> 00:16:52,210 S2: door inquiry with appropriate powers that wasn't quite a royal commission, 272 00:16:52,570 --> 00:16:55,330 S2: done in a fast and efficient way, might be one 273 00:16:55,330 --> 00:16:58,930 S2: of those means. But we don't have that. So if 274 00:16:58,970 --> 00:17:01,490 S2: Labor's not going to act, then all we're left for 275 00:17:01,530 --> 00:17:03,690 S2: are calls for a royal commission, and all we can 276 00:17:03,690 --> 00:17:07,010 S2: have is a royal commission. So the critical part is 277 00:17:07,010 --> 00:17:10,689 S2: not really what means we take to find accountability. The 278 00:17:10,690 --> 00:17:14,530 S2: critical part is saying we need accountability. By whatever measure 279 00:17:14,810 --> 00:17:16,810 S2: it's going to happen. And it should have happened yesterday. 280 00:17:17,090 --> 00:17:19,930 S1: And lastly, Nick, you're reporting on this has had serious 281 00:17:19,930 --> 00:17:23,330 S1: personal consequences. And it seems anyone who's been trying to 282 00:17:23,369 --> 00:17:26,650 S1: change the culture, you had a break in at your house, 283 00:17:26,650 --> 00:17:29,890 S1: there have been threats. Why do you continue reporting on 284 00:17:29,890 --> 00:17:32,050 S1: this despite the danger involved? 285 00:17:32,570 --> 00:17:35,010 S2: Well, it's my job as an investigative reporter to do this. 286 00:17:35,010 --> 00:17:37,940 S2: So the threats are awful, but they're part and parcel 287 00:17:37,940 --> 00:17:40,460 S2: of what I do and what I've chosen to do. 288 00:17:40,500 --> 00:17:45,180 S2: The real people who copied and shouldn't copied are innocent people. 289 00:17:45,220 --> 00:17:47,340 S2: The good people who work in the safe in the US. 290 00:17:47,340 --> 00:17:49,739 S2: And there are very good people who do work in 291 00:17:49,740 --> 00:17:53,500 S2: the CFMEU who've tried to combat corruption. The good people 292 00:17:53,500 --> 00:17:55,700 S2: in the building industry that the owners of big companies 293 00:17:55,700 --> 00:17:58,860 S2: and small who've been stood over or tried to blow 294 00:17:58,900 --> 00:18:04,180 S2: the whistle on these problems. There's so many good, honest 295 00:18:04,180 --> 00:18:07,820 S2: Victorians and Australians who've tried to stand up to this corruption, 296 00:18:07,820 --> 00:18:10,699 S2: this to this violence. And it's they who pay the 297 00:18:10,700 --> 00:18:15,820 S2: price every day. There's not enough investigation and accountability. And 298 00:18:15,820 --> 00:18:18,780 S2: that's the real tragedy of this scandal. Violence and fear 299 00:18:18,780 --> 00:18:21,179 S2: has been normalised and the critical part of our economy, 300 00:18:21,380 --> 00:18:24,460 S2: and that's bled down to ordinary people trying to make 301 00:18:24,500 --> 00:18:28,300 S2: an honest living. It's created a vastly unequal, unfair playing 302 00:18:28,300 --> 00:18:32,179 S2: field in the building industry. It's led to serious corruption 303 00:18:32,180 --> 00:18:35,379 S2: in a vital part of our society that is the union. 304 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,200 S2: It's led to a lack of accountability in big parts 305 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,520 S2: of the corporate sector that operate in the building industry. 306 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,560 S2: It's a really ugly scenario, and really it shouldn't be 307 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,399 S2: happening in modern times. I didn't think when I started 308 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,280 S2: reporting on this sort of stuff back in 2008, it 309 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,200 S2: would be even worse today. And yet it is. 310 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,160 S1: Well, Nick, thank you so much for your time today. 311 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:00,880 S2: Thanks for having me. 312 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:16,280 S1: Today's episode was produced by Josh towers. Our executive producer 313 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,879 S1: is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa 314 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:24,080 S1: Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like our show, follow 315 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,760 S1: the Morning Edition and leave us a review on Apple 316 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,160 S1: or Spotify. Thanks for listening.