WEBVTT - Tony Wright on the best and worst prime ministers, and the courage needed now 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:06.080 I'm Jacqueline Maley, and you're listening to Inside Politics from 0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:09.160 the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:12.040 And today we have something very, very special and a 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:15.640 little bit different because our beloved associate editor and special writer, 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:18.320 Tony Rice, is going to be stepping back from daily 0:00:18.320 --> 0:00:22.800 newsroom duties after 50 years in journalism. This week, Tony's 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:25.599 covered federal politics for about 30 years, and he's seen 0:00:25.600 --> 0:00:28.160 a lot. Readers who follow his work will know that 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:31.680 his political observations are always astute. They're wry, they're funny, 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:34.519 and they're delivered with plenty of heart. He's a beautiful writer, 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:37.000 but unusually for a journalist, he also has quite a 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:41.480 compassionate eye as well as a steely one when required. Yesterday, 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:44.600 the prime minister, Anthony Albanese, spoke about Tony in Question 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:47.879 Time and said that Tony has always been a harvester 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:48.760 of moments. 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:53.560 Finding the small things that so many of us may 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:59.240 miss and deftly weaving them into a much bigger picture. 0:00:59.860 --> 0:01:00.820 Many riders. 0:01:00.900 --> 0:01:03.660 So this week we want to harvest some of Tony's 0:01:03.660 --> 0:01:06.740 moments for our podcast. Tony, welcome to the show. 0:01:07.260 --> 0:01:08.780 Thanks very much, Jacqueline. 0:01:08.980 --> 0:01:11.420 And of course, we have our chief political correspondent, Paul 0:01:11.420 --> 0:01:14.820 Satchell in the studio in Canberra with Tony as well. Tony, 0:01:14.819 --> 0:01:17.100 I really love that description of you as a harvester 0:01:17.100 --> 0:01:20.619 of moments, because you arrived in the press gallery in 0:01:20.620 --> 0:01:24.940 1989 as chief political correspondent for The Canberra Times. Bob 0:01:24.940 --> 0:01:27.220 Hawke was the Prime minister and he was very much 0:01:27.260 --> 0:01:29.260 on the front foot with you, wasn't he? He invited 0:01:29.260 --> 0:01:31.620 you straight away down to his office to meet him. 0:01:31.740 --> 0:01:33.740 Can you tell us what happened at that meeting? 0:01:34.500 --> 0:01:38.220 Well, he's a very canny politician, Bob Hawke, and he 0:01:38.220 --> 0:01:40.740 was also he also had this charisma, I suppose, that 0:01:40.740 --> 0:01:43.940 people used to talk about. And I got I got 0:01:43.940 --> 0:01:46.380 a call in my office. I was still very wet 0:01:46.380 --> 0:01:48.140 behind the ears, didn't have a clue what I was 0:01:48.140 --> 0:01:52.620 doing really, and the voice said, ah, Hawkie would like 0:01:52.620 --> 0:01:54.220 to see you in his office. And I thought, of 0:01:54.220 --> 0:01:57.020 course he was going to drop a great story or 0:01:57.020 --> 0:02:00.120 something rather. So I grabbed my notebook and finally found 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:05.920 my way through the labyrinth of corridors to his office. 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:08.639 And he's sitting there with a cigar and he said, ah, mate, 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:13.760 you don't need the, uh, the notebook. His purpose was twofold. 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:19.960 I think one was, uh, generosity to somebody new in 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:24.919 the gallery. The other, I suspect, was that he, he 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:29.679 wanted to, uh, harness this new bloke in the gallery 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:34.200 just in case, down the track, because he, he said, look, uh, yeah, 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:36.440 if you need need a steer on any of, uh, 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:39.520 any story you're doing, um, just just give us a call, 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:41.200 you know, give give the office a call and we'll 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:44.679 fix you up. So, uh, I took a little while 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:48.400 to realize that, of course, he was, uh, being a 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:53.040 politician there, but he was. He was a very interesting guy. Um, 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:57.000 Bob Hawke in 1989. Of course, he'd already been prime 0:02:57.000 --> 0:03:03.060 minister for some time since 1983. A very seasoned politician 0:03:03.060 --> 0:03:07.380 and a very natural politician, he came into politics. So 0:03:08.060 --> 0:03:11.940 from the outside and straight to straight to the prime ministership, really. 0:03:12.380 --> 0:03:18.300 So his way of being able to relate to somebody 0:03:18.300 --> 0:03:21.260 who was pretty nervous, I've got to say, I was, um, 0:03:21.300 --> 0:03:22.859 was very practiced. 0:03:23.139 --> 0:03:25.820 So he had those marvellous interpersonal skills. He was an 0:03:25.820 --> 0:03:28.859 incredible advocate for policy. He knew how to wrangle his 0:03:28.860 --> 0:03:30.859 party room. And when you met him, he would have 0:03:30.860 --> 0:03:33.060 really been at the height of his powers. I mean, 0:03:33.100 --> 0:03:34.940 can you give listeners a sense of what what it 0:03:34.940 --> 0:03:38.060 was like to see a really great prime minister in 0:03:38.060 --> 0:03:41.460 full flight and, you know, effectively changing the country and 0:03:41.740 --> 0:03:43.820 pushing through all these really great reforms? What was it 0:03:43.820 --> 0:03:45.580 like to see him at the height of his powers? 0:03:45.940 --> 0:03:47.860 Well, of course it was. It was a double act. 0:03:47.900 --> 0:03:50.580 There was Hawke and Keating. Keating and Hawke, you know. 0:03:50.820 --> 0:03:55.340 And so a lot of the policies that had, uh, 0:03:55.580 --> 0:03:59.560 had changed were changing Australia's economy and Australia's outlook on 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:03.640 the world had come from both of their offices and 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:07.480 from the cabinet itself. Hawke, as I understood it and 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:14.160 learned from others, really did seek consensus among his senior ministers. 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:17.840 He didn't didn't rule the roost and demand that they 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:24.200 follow whatever. He allowed things to percolate and to be 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:28.200 debated and worked out. And he usually got, I suppose, 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:32.200 the outcome that he wanted in the first place. But 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:37.720 he was already, I think, getting to that period where 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:41.400 the cracks were going to show. And that happened the 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:45.640 following year in the 1990 election, where he very nearly 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:52.800 lost it to to Peacock. And of course, uh, Paul 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:55.400 Keating by then, uh, was pretty much at the end 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:57.540 of his patience and decided he was going to go 0:04:57.540 --> 0:04:58.820 for the prime ministership. 0:04:59.180 --> 0:05:01.060 So when did you see any sort of moments of 0:05:01.060 --> 0:05:03.460 real vulnerability in Hawke? Because he did have, you know, 0:05:03.500 --> 0:05:05.900 a famously sort of volatile personal life, you might say. 0:05:05.940 --> 0:05:09.060 And he had some real tragedy within his family life. 0:05:09.180 --> 0:05:12.100 Did you ever see those close personal moments when he 0:05:12.100 --> 0:05:13.299 expressed vulnerability? 0:05:14.260 --> 0:05:18.060 I can't say that I saw them close up. Of course, 0:05:18.060 --> 0:05:22.779 there was the famous occasion where he went on TV and, um, 0:05:22.980 --> 0:05:27.020 confirmed that one of his daughters had a heroin addiction, 0:05:27.260 --> 0:05:29.740 and he spilt real tears there. 0:05:29.779 --> 0:05:34.979 You don't cease to be a husband. You don't you 0:05:35.020 --> 0:05:39.900 don't cease to be a father like any father. I 0:05:40.060 --> 0:05:44.660 loved my daughter. I trust her. 0:05:45.380 --> 0:05:46.460 That I think. 0:05:47.100 --> 0:05:50.659 Hawke was somebody who could spill tears and not feel 0:05:51.140 --> 0:05:54.779 perturbed about it. He. I think he was pretty, pretty 0:05:54.779 --> 0:05:57.360 sure of who he was. And of course, a Prime 0:05:57.360 --> 0:06:01.159 Minister has, by dint of the fact that they have 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:04.960 made it to the prime ministership, a great deal of 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:12.200 self-confidence and, uh, and belief in their powers, even in 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:15.360 those times, I guess at 3:00 in the morning when 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:20.359 everybody wonders how things are going, really? Um, he didn't 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:23.360 really show that. Um, not at that time anyway. 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:27.440 Paul Keating obviously came along next and he famously said 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:30.520 that when you change, Prime Minister, you change the country. 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:34.719 How did the country change and how did politics change 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:38.440 with Keating? What was his leadership style to observe close up? 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:45.160 Well, um, number one, Keating came in to to try 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:48.640 to save the furniture because Peacock had nearly won the 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:53.839 1990 election. And Keating challenged halfway through the next year 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:58.299 and then won at the end of 1991. And coming 0:06:58.300 --> 0:07:04.380 along was John Hewson with this giant manifesto called fightback, 0:07:04.860 --> 0:07:09.580 and that Keating had already said he could defeat. But 0:07:10.140 --> 0:07:15.860 Hawke couldn't. His argument was that it wasn't an arithmetical, uh, argument. 0:07:15.860 --> 0:07:21.660 It was about culture and how it would affect the nation. And, uh, 0:07:21.660 --> 0:07:26.300 and he did. He, he he devoted most of that period. 0:07:26.300 --> 0:07:28.500 And you've got to remember, it was just after a, 0:07:29.420 --> 0:07:35.179 the economic downturn that the recession to have the recession, 0:07:35.180 --> 0:07:37.860 we had to have. Um, and a lot of. And 0:07:37.900 --> 0:07:40.860 he knew that a lot of people were against him, 0:07:40.860 --> 0:07:43.260 particularly the middle class that felt that it had been 0:07:43.500 --> 0:07:48.060 let down and hollowed out. Um, but he so he 0:07:48.060 --> 0:07:54.680 became this, uh, jackhammer, I suppose, um, going at John Hewson, 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:58.320 day after day after day and the fight back. And 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:05.160 you'll recall that very famous occasion in Parliament where Hewson said, well, 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:08.760 if you're so confident, why don't you call an election? 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:13.800 And he went. Because I want to do you slowly. 0:08:13.960 --> 0:08:16.000 There's got to be a bit of sport in this 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:16.920 for all of us. 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:20.000 I asked the Prime Minister, if you are so confident 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:23.440 about your view of Fight Back, why won't you call 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:39.079 an early election? Of. Course. I might because I want 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:46.320 to move slowly. I want to do you slowly. I know, 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:48.880 I know, there's got to be a bit of sport 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:51.280 in this for all of us. No, no. There's got 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:52.800 to be a bit of sport in this for all 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:52.960 of us. 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:59.660 He had that ability to just grab the moment and 0:08:59.660 --> 0:09:04.500 turn it into something that, you know, put your hair back. Really. Um, 0:09:04.980 --> 0:09:07.140 but and he won the election. I don't think he 0:09:07.140 --> 0:09:10.020 really believed he was going to win at the end. 0:09:10.059 --> 0:09:12.020 I don't think a lot of his staff did either. 0:09:12.380 --> 0:09:18.660 And having won in 1993, um, I think he became 0:09:19.660 --> 0:09:24.860 too triumphant. And for, for the, the taste of a 0:09:24.860 --> 0:09:30.459 lot of Australians. And he wasn't really sure where he 0:09:30.460 --> 0:09:33.300 was going. I don't think he'd done all his all 0:09:33.300 --> 0:09:38.020 his hard policy stuff during the period when he was treasurer. 0:09:38.220 --> 0:09:41.780 He'd had his big political moment as prime minister, and 0:09:41.780 --> 0:09:44.900 then he was at a bit of a loss. And, uh, 0:09:45.179 --> 0:09:50.819 of course, then came this extraordinary situation where John Howard 0:09:50.820 --> 0:09:54.610 was on the rise and Paul Keating couldn't believe that 0:09:54.890 --> 0:09:58.170 and it really, really unsettled him. 0:09:58.850 --> 0:10:03.929 It's often said, Tony, that the political leaders of today 0:10:03.970 --> 0:10:07.569 don't have the same ability to argue for big reform 0:10:07.570 --> 0:10:10.170 and push a case and convince the public. And people 0:10:10.170 --> 0:10:12.810 obviously cite Hawke, Keating and Howard, which I'm sure Jack's 0:10:12.809 --> 0:10:15.370 about to go into. Do you subscribe to that theory, 0:10:15.370 --> 0:10:18.370 or do you think that the modern era for a 0:10:18.370 --> 0:10:20.890 number of different factors, both the crises that we're facing, 0:10:20.890 --> 0:10:25.090 but also the modern form of communication make, makes governing 0:10:25.090 --> 0:10:26.570 just far harder these days? 0:10:26.850 --> 0:10:30.850 I think it does. Courage is required, of course, and 0:10:31.210 --> 0:10:35.650 Hawke and Keating had it in spades. What they also had, however, 0:10:35.850 --> 0:10:40.929 was a high, um, primary vote. Both they and the 0:10:41.170 --> 0:10:45.610 coalition had had high primary votes. So they knew where 0:10:45.730 --> 0:10:49.730 their support was to to a pretty large extent. And 0:10:49.730 --> 0:10:54.150 they worked on, on, on that. Since then there has 0:10:54.150 --> 0:10:59.030 been this fractured period, of course, that began when Rudd 0:10:59.030 --> 0:11:04.270 was rolled and Gillard and Abbott and Turnbull and Morrison 0:11:04.590 --> 0:11:06.469 all came in, and it was as if they were 0:11:06.470 --> 0:11:10.550 all gasping for air and trying to work out where 0:11:10.710 --> 0:11:16.510 they could go. And, and that has left an aftertaste, 0:11:16.510 --> 0:11:22.630 if you like, where courage is in relatively short supply 0:11:22.870 --> 0:11:26.550 when really big. Uh, the big vision thing, as Keating 0:11:26.550 --> 0:11:29.229 used to talk about it might, might be required. 0:11:29.270 --> 0:11:32.030 Sorry to interrupt you. Keating was known for his very 0:11:32.030 --> 0:11:36.109 sharp tongue in public, but also in private. And I've 0:11:36.150 --> 0:11:37.790 been told that you were on the end of some 0:11:37.790 --> 0:11:40.590 particularly sharp phone calls from Paul Keating. 0:11:41.350 --> 0:11:45.270 I quite like that, actually. Um, he came at you 0:11:45.270 --> 0:11:49.469 from the front. He didn't, uh, circle around and put 0:11:49.510 --> 0:11:53.810 little stories around or come at you from behind. If 0:11:53.809 --> 0:11:56.210 I'd written something in The Sydney Morning Herald, which you've 0:11:56.210 --> 0:12:00.850 got to recall was his hometown newspaper that he really 0:12:00.850 --> 0:12:07.370 disliked and and disagreed with, he would ring directly to 0:12:07.410 --> 0:12:12.010 my home in the morning and he would he would 0:12:12.010 --> 0:12:15.450 really go, you, you you knew that you'd you had 0:12:15.450 --> 0:12:18.970 been talked to when Paul Keating had been on the phone. 0:12:18.970 --> 0:12:23.209 But there was always a rhythm to it. He would 0:12:23.809 --> 0:12:28.490 use every bit of the vernacular that was available to 0:12:28.530 --> 0:12:32.370 him for some time. Then he'd sort of plateau, and 0:12:32.370 --> 0:12:36.250 then he would start coming down the other side, explaining 0:12:36.250 --> 0:12:40.890 himself and trying to talk policy and why why you 0:12:40.890 --> 0:12:42.850 were wrong and why he was right and so forth. 0:12:42.890 --> 0:12:46.530 Quite often you'd get a story. So I didn't mind that, 0:12:46.530 --> 0:12:48.930 and I certainly wasn't the only one. There were plenty 0:12:48.929 --> 0:12:52.670 of plenty of journalists who who got that treatment. He 0:12:52.670 --> 0:12:58.589 was very unusual in that he and the calls would 0:12:58.590 --> 0:13:01.710 go on for a very long time. My father would 0:13:01.710 --> 0:13:04.750 come and stay with us quite often in Canberra. And 0:13:04.750 --> 0:13:07.989 he actually believed that. Paul Keating rang me every morning 0:13:08.309 --> 0:13:10.910 for a while. It wasn't like that at all. It 0:13:10.910 --> 0:13:13.110 was just that when he was there, it happened to 0:13:13.110 --> 0:13:15.550 be coincidental. I'd got one of these calls. 0:13:16.510 --> 0:13:19.670 Obviously, Howard was the next prime minister after Keating, Tony, 0:13:19.670 --> 0:13:23.189 and he was a very, very different style of politician indeed. 0:13:23.510 --> 0:13:26.190 He was also an incredible politician and probably one of 0:13:26.190 --> 0:13:28.950 our best prime ministers. And he had none of the 0:13:28.950 --> 0:13:32.350 outward charm or the sort of emotion that you're talking 0:13:32.350 --> 0:13:35.429 about with Hawke and with Keating. But he did have 0:13:35.429 --> 0:13:39.030 this particular political magic that kept people coming back for more, 0:13:39.230 --> 0:13:42.589 and enabled him really to take the Australian population along 0:13:42.590 --> 0:13:45.430 with him for some very big decisions and reforms. What 0:13:45.429 --> 0:13:48.069 was that political magic that that Howard possessed? 0:13:48.390 --> 0:13:52.089 Well, I think he he stated it even before he 0:13:52.090 --> 0:13:56.530 became Prime Minister. He said the times will suit him. 0:13:56.850 --> 0:14:01.210 What he meant by that was that this, uh, very, uh, 0:14:02.650 --> 0:14:05.770 very hard period of conflict that, uh, Paul Keating had 0:14:05.770 --> 0:14:08.530 been in charge of and so forth, had got on 0:14:08.530 --> 0:14:13.609 people's nerves. So he actually said he wanted Australians to be, um, 0:14:13.690 --> 0:14:19.250 relaxed and comfortable. Yeah. Well, underneath that, of course, was, uh, 0:14:19.530 --> 0:14:21.610 was a lot of paddling going on. And he, he 0:14:21.930 --> 0:14:27.930 did have a, uh, a whole agenda at work. He 0:14:28.090 --> 0:14:31.130 had a, uh, an ability to sniff the breeze like 0:14:31.130 --> 0:14:34.530 very few other politicians I've ever seen. And I saw 0:14:34.530 --> 0:14:36.810 how he did that a bit. He carried out his 0:14:36.810 --> 0:14:42.010 own polls and personal polls. He would invite, say, a 0:14:42.010 --> 0:14:45.970 group of journalists around to the to the lodge and 0:14:45.970 --> 0:14:49.070 have a have a roast and and, uh, you know, 0:14:49.110 --> 0:14:52.870 some potatoes and a cup of tea. And, um, then 0:14:53.430 --> 0:14:56.230 he would stoke the fire and he would ask a 0:14:56.230 --> 0:15:00.070 question that didn't sound pointed, but you would discover later 0:15:00.070 --> 0:15:03.030 on was very important. I remember, for instance, one night 0:15:03.030 --> 0:15:06.430 we were there and he asked all of us and 0:15:06.430 --> 0:15:08.430 there were about, I don't know, 5 or 6 of us. 0:15:08.950 --> 0:15:15.470 Do you have personal private insurance? Right. Health insurance. And 0:15:15.470 --> 0:15:17.910 we all did as it turned out. And he said, well, 0:15:17.950 --> 0:15:20.070 you know, why wait, why do you why do you 0:15:20.070 --> 0:15:22.350 have it? And I think we, you know, we sort 0:15:22.390 --> 0:15:24.990 of stammered a bit and said, well, we could afford it. 0:15:24.990 --> 0:15:27.910 And it was probably a good idea and blah, blah, blah. 0:15:28.470 --> 0:15:31.830 Within a few weeks, he came out with this big 0:15:31.830 --> 0:15:37.790 policy to basically force people to consider taking private health insurance. 0:15:38.110 --> 0:15:43.750 He'd he'd been polling everyone he came across, I think, um, 0:15:44.270 --> 0:15:50.970 once again, before the, uh, Referendum on the Republic, which 0:15:51.010 --> 0:15:54.170 of course he was against. He came to a big 0:15:54.450 --> 0:16:01.770 corridor party in Parliament House. They were pretty roistering affairs, 0:16:01.890 --> 0:16:05.970 and he wandered around and asked everyone that I could 0:16:05.970 --> 0:16:09.410 see what. What's your. What's your point? What did you 0:16:09.410 --> 0:16:13.690 agree with? A with a Republican. The general answer was, 0:16:13.690 --> 0:16:17.770 oh yeah, we do. But it's not top of our 0:16:17.930 --> 0:16:21.090 priorities or top of mind. And he would mutter, yeah, 0:16:21.130 --> 0:16:23.730 not not top of mind, not top, top of mind. 0:16:23.770 --> 0:16:29.130 So he, he was, he was setting his own agendas 0:16:29.410 --> 0:16:33.730 and then trying them out on, on people without even 0:16:34.090 --> 0:16:37.570 those people knowing what he was on about. And then 0:16:37.770 --> 0:16:44.210 following through, um, he, he knew that Pauline Hanson was 0:16:44.210 --> 0:16:49.390 a threat, uh, particularly after 1998, when One Nation won 0:16:49.390 --> 0:16:53.990 11 seats in the in the Queensland state election. And, uh, 0:16:54.630 --> 0:16:59.870 and from that moment on, immigration and particularly asylum seekers 0:17:00.030 --> 0:17:05.990 was became one of his really big policy issues because 0:17:05.990 --> 0:17:08.670 he knew that she would harness that. And of course, 0:17:08.670 --> 0:17:11.870 it ended up with the Tampa and the Pacific solution 0:17:11.869 --> 0:17:13.230 and all those sort of things. 0:17:13.270 --> 0:17:17.310 Yeah. Which ended up being quite controversial policies for Howard, but. 0:17:17.310 --> 0:17:18.389 Also fairly mildly. 0:17:18.710 --> 0:17:22.670 Yeah. But also ensured his ongoing popularity with a large 0:17:22.670 --> 0:17:24.950 sector of the electorate and have now come back to 0:17:24.990 --> 0:17:27.270 haunt us. And I want to ask you about that later. 0:17:27.270 --> 0:17:29.430 But just to move through time, I mean, you went 0:17:29.430 --> 0:17:31.750 on a lot of overseas trips with the prime ministers 0:17:31.750 --> 0:17:35.270 and perhaps ministers as well. What was it like? What's 0:17:35.270 --> 0:17:38.590 it like to observe those prime ministers, leaders up close 0:17:38.590 --> 0:17:40.830 and personal and sort of in an off campus environment? 0:17:40.830 --> 0:17:43.270 What do you learn in that environment that you don't 0:17:43.270 --> 0:17:44.350 see in Canberra? 0:17:44.670 --> 0:17:48.889 Well, you learnt quite a bit because particularly in the 0:17:48.890 --> 0:17:51.010 earlier days when we were flying around on the old 0:17:51.570 --> 0:17:56.290 707 VIP plane, the Prime Minister of the day, and 0:17:56.530 --> 0:18:00.650 whether it be Bob Hawke or Paul Keating. And for 0:18:00.650 --> 0:18:05.210 a while, until, uh, um, John Howard got a plane 0:18:05.210 --> 0:18:09.410 that was too small to take, take, take journalists, they 0:18:09.410 --> 0:18:11.929 would they would wander down the back and have a 0:18:11.930 --> 0:18:14.330 bit of a chat and you could talk about anything 0:18:14.330 --> 0:18:16.649 because it really was off the record. We were we 0:18:16.650 --> 0:18:19.410 were in the sky, you know, and, uh, you got 0:18:19.410 --> 0:18:23.850 to know these people quite intimately, I think, um, in 0:18:23.890 --> 0:18:27.850 a way that you couldn't possibly around Parliament House. I 0:18:27.850 --> 0:18:32.490 remember during an election campaign, Kim Beazley, this was that 0:18:32.490 --> 0:18:36.530 famous election campaign that I was talking about after Tampa. And, 0:18:37.090 --> 0:18:40.090 and the Twin Towers came down. 0:18:40.130 --> 0:18:42.810 2000 and was it 2000, 2001. 0:18:42.850 --> 0:18:43.409 2001? 0:18:43.410 --> 0:18:46.910 Yeah, 2001 and Kim Beazley came down the back of 0:18:46.910 --> 0:18:50.670 the plane and all the journalists were there. And he 0:18:50.710 --> 0:18:52.510 he began by saying, you know, we're going to win 0:18:52.510 --> 0:18:57.070 this one. And then within a couple of minutes he 0:18:57.070 --> 0:19:04.270 was saying, you know, we we've we've done everything we can. Um, 0:19:04.470 --> 0:19:07.190 I don't know how this is going to go. And 0:19:07.190 --> 0:19:09.389 then he was slumped in a seat saying, you know, 0:19:09.750 --> 0:19:12.910 if we don't win, at least we gave it everything. 0:19:13.230 --> 0:19:17.550 And right in front of our eyes, we saw a 0:19:18.350 --> 0:19:21.629 politician who was running for the prime ministership or hoping 0:19:21.630 --> 0:19:25.510 to get there, talk himself out of it. Um, and 0:19:25.790 --> 0:19:27.909 that I think had a, had an effect on a 0:19:27.910 --> 0:19:30.750 lot of journalists following it. You sort of saw this 0:19:30.750 --> 0:19:36.270 vulnerability of, of Kim Beazley, a man of great intellect who, um, 0:19:36.350 --> 0:19:40.629 also had the ability, unlike a lot of them, to 0:19:40.670 --> 0:19:44.930 see both sides of a question. And, and therefore he wasn't, 0:19:45.210 --> 0:19:51.250 he wasn't, um, this sharp, sharp tool coming, coming at politics. 0:19:51.250 --> 0:19:53.409 He was a, he was a man who wanted to 0:19:53.450 --> 0:19:56.530 think about it. And unfortunately, he thought himself out of 0:19:56.530 --> 0:19:57.850 winning right in front of us. 0:19:57.890 --> 0:20:01.130 The very sort of character traits that made him, gave 0:20:01.130 --> 0:20:04.690 him his humanity, made him perhaps not the best politician. 0:20:04.730 --> 0:20:05.050 What. 0:20:05.369 --> 0:20:08.570 What who's the best prime minister? You think you've covered 0:20:08.570 --> 0:20:09.650 the strongest leader? 0:20:11.690 --> 0:20:15.650 Well, the two strongest leaders really were Bob Hawke and 0:20:15.650 --> 0:20:19.330 and John Howard and both of them. It could be 0:20:19.330 --> 0:20:23.850 seen in the great length of time they remain prime ministers. 0:20:23.850 --> 0:20:26.450 I'm not talking about agreeing with them or disagreeing with 0:20:26.450 --> 0:20:29.530 them on on policy or the way they went about it, 0:20:29.530 --> 0:20:33.050 but they were both very strong. Um, and at the end, 0:20:33.090 --> 0:20:36.970 of course, um, you could see that you could watch 0:20:36.970 --> 0:20:43.149 that strength eking away when, when, uh, Keating went at Hawke, 0:20:43.990 --> 0:20:49.110 and then when John Howard had outstayed his welcome, I think, 0:20:49.430 --> 0:20:53.310 and he sent out his, uh, his cabinet ministers to 0:20:53.350 --> 0:20:56.830 find out what people thought. And, and got Alexander Downer 0:20:56.830 --> 0:21:00.110 to report back about what they were thinking. And he 0:21:00.109 --> 0:21:04.510 did report back that they thought he should step aside. Well, 0:21:04.510 --> 0:21:07.710 he refused to step aside. He lost his seat. So 0:21:08.790 --> 0:21:11.830 there is there is that period where a prime minister 0:21:11.830 --> 0:21:16.470 can be seen as a very powerful, very strong prime minister, um, 0:21:16.470 --> 0:21:20.790 running the country the way he feels best. But in 0:21:20.790 --> 0:21:23.510 the end, there are tears. 0:21:23.830 --> 0:21:27.230 Yeah. In the end everything changes and all periods pass, right. 0:21:27.830 --> 0:21:30.110 Who is the worst Prime minister you covered? 0:21:32.030 --> 0:21:35.910 Well, that's a bit of a leading question. I, I think, um, 0:21:36.910 --> 0:21:41.510 I think Scott Morrison was, uh, perhaps the, the, the, 0:21:41.590 --> 0:21:45.090 the Prime Minister who you ended up not having all 0:21:45.130 --> 0:21:48.649 that much time for or I didn't. The sort of 0:21:48.690 --> 0:21:53.290 things he did, um, and where he'd come from were 0:21:54.810 --> 0:21:58.649 made him the sort of Prime minister who really wasn't 0:21:58.730 --> 0:22:01.770 suited to the job. I think he'd come from that 0:22:01.770 --> 0:22:04.609 period where he was, you know, running Border Force and 0:22:04.609 --> 0:22:06.969 all that sort of thing where he, he, he became 0:22:06.970 --> 0:22:09.810 a very secretive man and thought that was terrific because 0:22:09.810 --> 0:22:13.290 we'd ask him questions about asylum seekers. And he'd, he'd 0:22:13.290 --> 0:22:16.490 just say, well, that's an on, on water matter or 0:22:16.650 --> 0:22:19.410 operational matter, and we wouldn't talk about it. So when 0:22:19.410 --> 0:22:21.970 he became prime minister, I think a lot of people 0:22:21.970 --> 0:22:25.330 didn't quite trust him. And the way he got there 0:22:25.330 --> 0:22:29.930 when he did Turnbull in a few really, a few 0:22:29.930 --> 0:22:33.410 hours after he'd declared to the cameras that his only 0:22:33.410 --> 0:22:37.690 ambition was for his prime minister, Malcolm Turnbull. I mean, 0:22:37.730 --> 0:22:43.750 he he had a pretty tough time because of Covid and, uh, 0:22:43.990 --> 0:22:47.229 he didn't handle other things very well. For instance, the 0:22:47.230 --> 0:22:52.390 bushfires pretty, pretty much, uh, stripped him of reputation. The 0:22:52.390 --> 0:22:56.630 part where he was overseas in having a holiday whilst 0:22:56.910 --> 0:22:59.030 Australia burnt. And then he came back and said, well, 0:22:59.070 --> 0:23:01.710 you know, I don't hold a hose, mate. Those sort 0:23:01.750 --> 0:23:06.030 of things didn't resonate very well. And in the end, 0:23:06.070 --> 0:23:11.070 when he was discovered to have made himself a minister 0:23:11.430 --> 0:23:17.629 of five different portfolios secretly, he not only lost a 0:23:17.670 --> 0:23:20.310 lot of points with those who looked at him from 0:23:20.310 --> 0:23:23.870 the outside, but from the inside, his own ministers and 0:23:23.869 --> 0:23:26.590 his own colleagues. And I think in the end, people 0:23:26.590 --> 0:23:29.950 look back and go, you know, it wasn't a great period. 0:23:30.109 --> 0:23:32.630 Yeah. I mean, there was a running theme with Scott Morrison, 0:23:32.630 --> 0:23:35.109 wasn't there, where, um, you know, rightly or wrongly, the 0:23:35.109 --> 0:23:37.389 perception was that he, he had a, had a problem 0:23:37.390 --> 0:23:40.930 with taking accountability and he wouldn't take responsibility for his 0:23:40.930 --> 0:23:44.850 own actions and mistakes in taking the historical view. How 0:23:44.890 --> 0:23:47.730 do you rate Anthony Albanese as a prime minister? 0:23:48.730 --> 0:23:55.770 Um, as has been said previously about the French Revolution, too, 0:23:55.810 --> 0:23:59.810 too early to tell. Um but he, he, um he's 0:23:59.810 --> 0:24:03.570 already completed one term of course, and he's won another election. 0:24:03.850 --> 0:24:06.050 That's, that's an age by the by the standards of 0:24:06.050 --> 0:24:07.410 modern Australian politics. 0:24:07.570 --> 0:24:10.850 He's probably having a fair bit of fortune actually. Um 0:24:10.970 --> 0:24:18.530 because the opposition, the conservative opposition has essentially collapsed. Uh, 0:24:18.530 --> 0:24:21.810 one nation has come in to fill that vacuum, and 0:24:21.810 --> 0:24:26.010 it doesn't look as if he is likely to be, um, 0:24:26.210 --> 0:24:30.810 to be toppled at the next election, even though his, uh, 0:24:31.410 --> 0:24:36.090 ratings are way down. I mean, the, uh, I think 0:24:36.090 --> 0:24:41.950 the government's primary vote is somewhere around 28%. Well, it's 0:24:41.950 --> 0:24:44.470 not all that long ago that if you heard those figures, 0:24:44.470 --> 0:24:48.270 you would say, well, they're finished. He he's not. And 0:24:48.310 --> 0:24:50.910 he and he keeps battling on, I mean, yeah. Um, 0:24:51.470 --> 0:24:58.350 he has that, uh, uh, he appears cautious, but quite 0:24:58.350 --> 0:25:02.230 a bit does get done. And every now and again 0:25:02.270 --> 0:25:07.950 he allows that sort of tearaway young elbow to appear, um, 0:25:08.030 --> 0:25:14.510 to his, uh, deleterious sort of, uh, approach or outcome. 0:25:14.670 --> 0:25:17.950 I mean, you know, going on a podcast and talking 0:25:17.950 --> 0:25:22.629 about Kylie and melons and so forth just didn't work. It, uh, maybe, 0:25:22.830 --> 0:25:26.270 maybe these guys all want to be hawky and they can't. 0:25:26.950 --> 0:25:28.710 I know I'm jumping around a bit here, but I 0:25:28.710 --> 0:25:30.830 do want to ask about Julia Gillard. And that was 0:25:30.830 --> 0:25:32.950 a period when I was in Canberra too. We worked 0:25:32.950 --> 0:25:35.230 side by side and we had a lot of fun 0:25:35.230 --> 0:25:37.110 and a lot. It was an interesting time to be 0:25:37.109 --> 0:25:41.729 covering politics. It was a particularly volatile time. It was 0:25:41.730 --> 0:25:44.410 full of a lot of personal attacks and vitriol. Was 0:25:44.410 --> 0:25:46.770 that a sort of step change, you know, from your 0:25:46.770 --> 0:25:49.450 point of view, having come from sort of like the kinder, 0:25:49.450 --> 0:25:52.410 gentler years of Howard and Rudd and then step changing 0:25:52.450 --> 0:25:55.290 to Gillard minority government. Can you just reflect on that 0:25:55.290 --> 0:25:56.169 a bit for us? 0:25:57.050 --> 0:26:00.729 Yeah, look, it's a very conflicted time because of the 0:26:00.730 --> 0:26:03.969 way she came to be prime Minister. Getting rid of 0:26:04.369 --> 0:26:07.210 Rudd while he was still prime minister and not very 0:26:07.210 --> 0:26:11.810 far into his into his term, and then almost losing 0:26:11.810 --> 0:26:15.130 the next election and being saved by a couple of independents. 0:26:15.290 --> 0:26:20.410 So there were those around her who, number one, either 0:26:20.450 --> 0:26:26.410 didn't like her because of the turmoil that, uh, um, 0:26:27.050 --> 0:26:30.609 put her into the job in the first place. And 0:26:31.050 --> 0:26:34.850 others who were worried that she wouldn't, um, she wouldn't 0:26:34.850 --> 0:26:37.530 be able to last, but she did. And a lot 0:26:37.530 --> 0:26:41.629 of people don't realize. But she got more legislation through 0:26:41.630 --> 0:26:45.470 Parliament than virtually anybody else in that short period. She 0:26:45.470 --> 0:26:49.550 was prime minister, and she did get attacked in quite 0:26:49.590 --> 0:26:54.230 unfair ways. Um, she was the first female prime minister. 0:26:54.470 --> 0:26:58.030 And you know that stuff about Ditch the Witch and 0:26:58.070 --> 0:27:02.710 all the rest of it, um, was, was utterly, utterly appalling. 0:27:02.950 --> 0:27:08.510 And when she finally cracked, I suppose when Tony Abbott 0:27:09.230 --> 0:27:12.669 was getting stuck into her, calling her a misogynist or 0:27:12.910 --> 0:27:17.469 whatever for backing Peter Slipper. Um, the speaker who was 0:27:18.070 --> 0:27:22.470 had been sending pretty vile emails and she did that 0:27:22.670 --> 0:27:23.470 big moment. 0:27:23.510 --> 0:27:26.190 So doing, I say to the leader of the opposition, 0:27:26.190 --> 0:27:30.429 I will not be lectured about sexism and misogyny by 0:27:30.430 --> 0:27:34.189 this man. I will not, and the government will not 0:27:34.190 --> 0:27:39.650 be lectured about sexism and misogyny by this man. Not now, 0:27:39.690 --> 0:27:40.570 not ever. 0:27:41.130 --> 0:27:47.610 That raised her stakes, probably forever, with a pretty reasonable 0:27:47.609 --> 0:27:52.490 cohort of Australian voters. Others, of course, will never will 0:27:52.490 --> 0:27:56.090 never come to her side because, um, there is a, 0:27:57.010 --> 0:28:04.969 I think a pretty strong stream of sexism running through, uh, 0:28:06.330 --> 0:28:09.970 the harder edges of politics. And of course, she was 0:28:09.970 --> 0:28:13.810 undermined by Kevin Rudd all the way along to the 0:28:13.810 --> 0:28:17.490 point where she actually had to hand the prime ministership 0:28:17.490 --> 0:28:21.650 back to him, uh, at the very last minute. And 0:28:21.690 --> 0:28:24.290 of course, he couldn't save the save the ship either. 0:28:24.450 --> 0:28:27.290 So it was a, it was a conflicted period. I 0:28:27.290 --> 0:28:32.890 think she has come out of it that actually horrible period, 0:28:32.890 --> 0:28:38.470 I suppose, as a person who is highly respected because 0:28:38.950 --> 0:28:42.710 after she left the Prime Minister, she. She never looked 0:28:42.710 --> 0:28:44.790 back and and and complained. 0:28:45.630 --> 0:28:49.110 Tony has Pauline Hanson's research and surprised you. You covered 0:28:49.110 --> 0:28:51.630 her in her first period of popularity. 0:28:52.030 --> 0:28:56.950 I think it surprised everyone. The level of of of resurgence. 0:28:57.550 --> 0:29:04.830 I recall, as I mentioned, the 1998 surge when One 0:29:04.830 --> 0:29:09.390 Nation won 11 seats in the Parliament of of state, 0:29:09.390 --> 0:29:12.390 Parliament of Queensland. But you've got to remember later on 0:29:12.430 --> 0:29:16.670 that year, she she couldn't win her own seat. And 0:29:16.990 --> 0:29:22.950 the One Nation, uh, basically disintegrated with one one Senator. 0:29:22.990 --> 0:29:25.989 That was all for a long time. So this is 0:29:25.990 --> 0:29:28.350 a person who made a lot of noise for a 0:29:28.350 --> 0:29:33.750 lot of time. But once again, perhaps the times have 0:29:33.750 --> 0:29:39.620 suited her. There is a very strong feeling across country 0:29:39.620 --> 0:29:45.780 Australia that people outside the inner circles of the city 0:29:45.820 --> 0:29:49.140 and and so forth are being left out of the 0:29:49.300 --> 0:29:53.100 the equation. I know in my own territory I have 0:29:53.140 --> 0:29:55.940 a house in the country and I spent a lot 0:29:55.940 --> 0:29:59.980 of time down there. The roads are falling apart. We've 0:29:59.980 --> 0:30:05.220 lost our air services. There's only one train in the near. 0:30:05.980 --> 0:30:10.700 And people look at, say, Melbourne or the big cities 0:30:10.700 --> 0:30:14.820 and see billions of dollars being spent on infrastructure, and 0:30:14.820 --> 0:30:18.420 they feel left out. And they feel a lot of 0:30:18.420 --> 0:30:22.620 people clearly out there feel that, um, no one's speaking 0:30:22.620 --> 0:30:27.780 for them. And Pauline Hanson always has, people will say, 0:30:28.340 --> 0:30:31.780 and I would add, of course, that in country Australia, 0:30:32.020 --> 0:30:37.160 Sky TV is free to air and has been since 2018. 0:30:37.480 --> 0:30:40.120 And you go around the farms and so forth. I've 0:30:40.120 --> 0:30:44.760 got cousins and all. And and here in the corner is, uh, 0:30:44.960 --> 0:30:51.160 Sky TV sounding off against elitism and the major parties 0:30:51.160 --> 0:30:56.560 and how, how rotten, uh, is woke Australia and so 0:30:56.560 --> 0:30:59.880 forth and so forth. And that has, you know, it's 0:30:59.880 --> 0:31:04.840 all melded exactly the right time for, um, Pauline Hanson 0:31:04.840 --> 0:31:07.680 to fill that vacuum that I was talking about after, 0:31:08.040 --> 0:31:14.080 after Dutton when, uh, the coalition actually fell apart and 0:31:14.080 --> 0:31:16.560 then hasn't really put itself back together yet. 0:31:16.600 --> 0:31:21.520 Yeah. Tony, politics is so often about plotting and brawling and, 0:31:21.560 --> 0:31:24.560 you know, that's what we see from the outside, you know, 0:31:25.360 --> 0:31:27.880 all of that sort of conflict and the nasty stuff. 0:31:27.880 --> 0:31:30.240 But when you're covering politics, there are also moments of 0:31:30.240 --> 0:31:33.240 great emotional power when you realize that you're witnessing history 0:31:33.240 --> 0:31:35.940 and you're really up close to something very special. You 0:31:35.940 --> 0:31:38.500 would have seen many moments like that in your career. 0:31:38.540 --> 0:31:40.060 Do you want to talk us through 1 or 2 0:31:40.100 --> 0:31:40.700 of those? 0:31:41.500 --> 0:31:44.700 Yeah. Yeah, I have, um, and I should point out 0:31:44.700 --> 0:31:49.020 that a lot of politicians who arrive in Canberra arrive with, 0:31:49.220 --> 0:31:52.860 with the best of intentions, and they, they really believe 0:31:52.900 --> 0:31:56.540 they're going to, um, help society and change the nation 0:31:56.540 --> 0:32:01.180 and so forth. And they get rubbed pretty bare pretty quickly. Um, 0:32:01.180 --> 0:32:05.100 but talking about big moments, I suppose the one of 0:32:05.100 --> 0:32:10.380 the biggest was Kevin Rudd's apology to the Stolen Generations. 0:32:10.740 --> 0:32:15.820 For the pain, suffering and hurt of these stolen generations, 0:32:16.820 --> 0:32:21.660 their descendants and for their families left behind. We say sorry. 0:32:24.180 --> 0:32:27.540 To the mothers and the fathers, the brothers and the 0:32:27.540 --> 0:32:32.580 sisters for the breaking up of families and communities, we 0:32:32.600 --> 0:32:38.000 say sorry, and for the indignity and degradation thus inflicted 0:32:38.000 --> 0:32:43.040 on a proud people and a proud culture, we say sorry. 0:32:45.000 --> 0:32:50.680 That was something that had had been playing on Australia's 0:32:50.680 --> 0:32:54.200 conscience for a long time. Some people, of course, would 0:32:54.200 --> 0:32:58.480 disagree with that. But when Kevin Rudd stood up in 0:32:58.480 --> 0:33:02.000 Parliament and there were a lot of indigenous people there, 0:33:02.200 --> 0:33:05.920 there were a lot of people who had been stolen 0:33:06.280 --> 0:33:10.920 as as children and had suffered a great deal trying 0:33:10.920 --> 0:33:13.800 to put their lives back together. And when he stood 0:33:13.800 --> 0:33:18.320 up there and made his apology, we are sorry. And 0:33:19.120 --> 0:33:23.440 the the fluttering of handkerchiefs in the in the crowd, 0:33:24.080 --> 0:33:31.440 the tears, the silence was absolutely profound. I saw something 0:33:31.500 --> 0:33:37.860 similar when Julia Gillard apologised to another stolen generation, I 0:33:37.860 --> 0:33:42.060 suppose those who were taken from their mothers, their single 0:33:42.060 --> 0:33:45.980 mothers and adopted out or put in homes or whatever. 0:33:46.260 --> 0:33:50.500 And the same thing occurred there, that welling up of emotion. Yes. 0:33:50.780 --> 0:33:56.380 And you suddenly realised that these were people who had 0:33:56.380 --> 0:33:59.940 just wanted to have been heard and recognised. And here 0:33:59.940 --> 0:34:03.980 was a Prime Minister doing it. Rudd for the for 0:34:03.980 --> 0:34:10.900 the stolen indigenous generations. Guillard for. For others. Um, and 0:34:10.900 --> 0:34:15.420 they were very important moments. The Gillard one was unfortunate 0:34:15.420 --> 0:34:19.219 because in the background, as soon as it was over, uh, 0:34:19.260 --> 0:34:23.780 there was, there was more, you know, conflict politics going on. 0:34:23.820 --> 0:34:25.859 I remember that day. It was yeah, the best and 0:34:25.860 --> 0:34:28.819 the worst of politics. I mean, I got goosebumps just 0:34:28.820 --> 0:34:31.400 hearing you talk about those moments because yeah, I was there, 0:34:31.440 --> 0:34:35.200 you know, for the second one. And you realize that 0:34:35.400 --> 0:34:37.640 politics does have the power to change people's lives for 0:34:37.640 --> 0:34:40.040 the better, despite all of the nasty stuff that we 0:34:40.080 --> 0:34:42.960 sometimes see in the cynicism that we sometimes hold about 0:34:43.000 --> 0:34:45.719 our political process. Tony, is there anything else you want 0:34:45.760 --> 0:34:47.840 to leave us with? I mean, you you're sort of 0:34:47.880 --> 0:34:50.000 walking out of the press gallery, hopefully not for the 0:34:50.000 --> 0:34:53.399 last time, but you're taking a step back. I know 0:34:53.400 --> 0:34:55.640 that you have always treated your colleagues with so much 0:34:55.640 --> 0:34:59.160 kindness and respect and warmth, and you're a very generous colleague, 0:34:59.160 --> 0:35:01.480 and I know that you consider your position a very 0:35:01.480 --> 0:35:03.399 privileged one, because you love what you do and you 0:35:03.400 --> 0:35:04.560 never take it for granted. 0:35:05.480 --> 0:35:07.520 Yeah, I'm the luckiest bloke in the world. You know, 0:35:07.560 --> 0:35:13.040 I came from a small country district and a school. 0:35:13.080 --> 0:35:15.600 I've spoken about this before at a boarding school in 0:35:15.600 --> 0:35:20.000 the country. I looked across from the top floor dormitories 0:35:20.000 --> 0:35:23.680 at the Grampians and thought, I want to see what's 0:35:23.680 --> 0:35:27.160 beyond there. Well, journalism has allowed me to see what 0:35:27.160 --> 0:35:30.580 is beyond there, right around the world and across Australia and, 0:35:30.900 --> 0:35:37.420 and the people with whom I've worked um, are really family, 0:35:37.460 --> 0:35:43.260 you know, and I love these people and um, I'll 0:35:43.260 --> 0:35:48.700 miss them desperately. It's the pleasure of going to work 0:35:48.700 --> 0:35:52.060 either in the days of Canberra when I used to 0:35:52.060 --> 0:35:54.540 come into the press gallery all the time, or now 0:35:54.540 --> 0:35:59.180 nowadays in the in the newsroom of the age in Melbourne, 0:35:59.620 --> 0:36:02.140 um there are all these brilliant people, a lot of 0:36:02.140 --> 0:36:05.580 them young, uh, a lot of them. So, uh, full 0:36:05.580 --> 0:36:11.620 of ideas and full of emotion and, and passion and, uh, it, 0:36:12.140 --> 0:36:14.020 it just makes your heart sing to be able to 0:36:14.020 --> 0:36:15.100 do those sort of things. 0:36:15.300 --> 0:36:18.100 I would just add that, you know, the prime Minister 0:36:18.100 --> 0:36:21.259 and opposition leader often give these speeches in the House 0:36:21.260 --> 0:36:25.380 after Question time on milestones or anniversaries or for formalities, 0:36:25.380 --> 0:36:27.379 but they can often look as if they're going through 0:36:27.380 --> 0:36:29.799 the motions. But you could sense that both of them 0:36:29.800 --> 0:36:31.839 really meant what they said. The Prime Minister's speech in 0:36:31.840 --> 0:36:35.400 particular was quite thoughtful. There was some emotion in there, 0:36:35.880 --> 0:36:39.320 and the opposition leader spoke really nicely as well. And 0:36:39.400 --> 0:36:42.000 I've seen a bunch of ministers ask me questions about 0:36:42.000 --> 0:36:44.319 you this week. I've seen come in some come into 0:36:44.320 --> 0:36:46.960 our office to chat to you. So all very fitting 0:36:47.000 --> 0:36:47.600 to Mark. 0:36:47.920 --> 0:36:49.240 All very embarrassing. 0:36:49.280 --> 0:36:52.000 I know it's been embarrassing to you, but people, people 0:36:52.000 --> 0:36:52.640 want to express. 0:36:52.680 --> 0:36:55.839 That somebody had set this up and, you know, a 0:36:55.840 --> 0:37:00.400 bit like somebody reading your obituary before you're gone. But 0:37:00.440 --> 0:37:03.560 it was it was, of course, lovely. And my family 0:37:03.560 --> 0:37:06.440 and my kids and so forth will, will treasure those 0:37:06.440 --> 0:37:09.640 moments because they've got them on video. They knew what 0:37:09.640 --> 0:37:13.719 was going to happen, I didn't. Um, but yeah, it 0:37:13.719 --> 0:37:17.360 was pretty special. And a nice, uh, a nice end 0:37:17.640 --> 0:37:19.480 to this part of my career. 0:37:19.520 --> 0:37:20.640 You'll still be writing. 0:37:20.960 --> 0:37:25.240 I will. As a contributor for The Age and perhaps 0:37:25.239 --> 0:37:26.320 the Sydney Morning Herald. 0:37:26.360 --> 0:37:26.920 Very good. 0:37:27.080 --> 0:37:29.340 We can't wait to read what you do next Tony, 0:37:29.380 --> 0:37:32.140 and we will miss you. We will miss you having 0:37:32.300 --> 0:37:34.779 having you as a day to day colleague. It's been 0:37:34.780 --> 0:37:36.939 a pleasure to work with you. Thank you for being 0:37:36.940 --> 0:37:40.020 on the podcast and for sharing your harvesting those moments 0:37:40.020 --> 0:37:42.860 with us, and we'll hopefully see you again soon. 0:37:43.620 --> 0:37:45.660 Thanks very much, Jacqueline, and it was a pleasure working 0:37:45.660 --> 0:37:46.859 with you too, I must say. 0:37:46.900 --> 0:37:48.420 Yeah, it was fun. We had some fun. 0:37:50.420 --> 0:37:51.060 Thanks, Tony. 0:37:54.940 --> 0:37:57.220 You can read all of our political news on our website, 0:37:57.260 --> 0:38:03.020 ca.com.au or smh.com.au. Today's episode was produced by Kai Wong 0:38:03.060 --> 0:38:06.900 with help from Debbie Harrington. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills, 0:38:06.900 --> 0:38:10.739 and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. 0:38:11.300 --> 0:38:14.260 Before you go, follow Inside Politics and leave a review 0:38:14.260 --> 0:38:17.899 for us on Apple or Spotify. I'm Jacqueline Maley, thank 0:38:17.900 --> 0:38:18.700 you for listening.