1 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:11,160 S1: Our character is essentially Anglo-Celtic and Judeo-Christian. That's what has 2 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:15,120 S1: made our country attractive to migrants included, and we should 3 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:16,000 S1: keep it that way. 4 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,360 S2: That was former Prime Minister Tony Abbott on the position 5 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:23,560 S2: that he would like the newly minted coalition leader Angus 6 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:26,800 S2: Taylor to adopt, saying that for the coalition to win 7 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,680 S2: voters back from One Nation, it needs to take a 8 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:35,159 S2: harder line on immigration and move away from diversity. I'm 9 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,680 S2: Samantha Selinger Morris, and you're listening to Morning Edition from 10 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:43,360 S2: The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald today, political analyst 11 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,840 S2: Sean Kelly on how far Angus Taylor will go in 12 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:51,159 S2: cracking down on immigration and his connection to Tony Abbott. 13 00:00:52,200 --> 00:01:04,070 S2: It's February 17th. Welcome, Sean, back to the podcast. 14 00:01:04,230 --> 00:01:05,590 S3: Thanks for having me on again. 15 00:01:06,270 --> 00:01:09,429 S2: Okay, so we need to talk about all things Angus Taylor. 16 00:01:09,430 --> 00:01:12,430 S2: But let's start off with, I guess, just how bad 17 00:01:12,470 --> 00:01:15,230 S2: a position is he in right now in terms of 18 00:01:15,230 --> 00:01:18,750 S2: his chances of succeeding as an opposition leader? You know, 19 00:01:18,790 --> 00:01:21,910 S2: maybe full stop or maybe in comparison to other opposition 20 00:01:21,910 --> 00:01:24,750 S2: leaders in the past, like just how much is he 21 00:01:24,750 --> 00:01:27,670 S2: up against it? How bad a position is he in, Sean? 22 00:01:28,310 --> 00:01:30,630 S4: Oh, I mean, he's he's in an awful position. You know, 23 00:01:30,670 --> 00:01:34,869 S4: there was a new poll out this week in the 24 00:01:34,870 --> 00:01:37,630 S4: Sydney Morning Herald and The Age, and it's disastrous for 25 00:01:37,630 --> 00:01:41,270 S4: the coalition. And it captures that tail end of Susan 26 00:01:41,270 --> 00:01:44,350 S4: Lee's leadership. Tries to do a bit of a comparison 27 00:01:44,350 --> 00:01:47,110 S4: as well with how things might change with Angus Taylor 28 00:01:47,110 --> 00:01:49,950 S4: as leader. Certainly he's doing a little bit better than 29 00:01:49,990 --> 00:01:53,430 S4: Susan Lee was, but only to the tune of being 30 00:01:53,470 --> 00:01:57,310 S4: precisely even with One Nation now in the voting. So 31 00:01:57,310 --> 00:01:59,570 S4: we're talking about 1 in 4 Australians will give their 32 00:01:59,570 --> 00:02:03,490 S4: vote to the coalition. 1 in 4 Australians will give 33 00:02:03,490 --> 00:02:07,290 S4: their vote to one nation. So that is a pretty 34 00:02:07,290 --> 00:02:11,970 S4: awful situation to be starting from. The other massive obstacle 35 00:02:12,010 --> 00:02:17,610 S4: he faces is just time. Labor are huge favourites to 36 00:02:17,650 --> 00:02:21,250 S4: win the next election. Of course, anything's possible in politics, 37 00:02:21,250 --> 00:02:23,730 S4: but it is certainly very difficult to tear them down 38 00:02:23,730 --> 00:02:27,810 S4: from the huge majority that they have. That means that 39 00:02:28,130 --> 00:02:32,210 S4: the coalition winning government is at least 4 or 5 40 00:02:32,250 --> 00:02:36,649 S4: years away, in all likelihood. And opposition leaders just don't 41 00:02:36,690 --> 00:02:40,610 S4: tend to last that long. Sometimes they do. But the 42 00:02:40,610 --> 00:02:43,850 S4: thing about lasting that long is it gives the government 43 00:02:44,050 --> 00:02:48,609 S4: huge opportunity to tear you down. So Bill shorten, for example, 44 00:02:48,610 --> 00:02:53,010 S4: did very well at the 2016 election, but by 2019, 45 00:02:53,050 --> 00:02:56,210 S4: the government had had six years to tear him down. 46 00:02:56,250 --> 00:02:59,640 S4: Six years kind of poison the well and you could 47 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:03,200 S4: see Bill Shorten's personal numbers falling over that period. And, 48 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:05,840 S4: you know, that meant labor lost the supposedly unlosable election 49 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:06,920 S4: in 2019. 50 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:10,200 S2: Incredible. And I really want to get to, I guess, 51 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:12,600 S2: at its very crux. You know, the main issue, of course, 52 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,680 S2: is immigration. And that's what One Nation obviously hits hardest with. 53 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:18,080 S2: And I noticed with great interest that on the ABC 54 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:22,480 S2: just the other day, political analyst Jacob Greber said that 55 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:26,160 S2: Angus Taylor was playing footsie with One Nation with regards 56 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:30,119 S2: to his immigration stance. So is that true? I guess 57 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,280 S2: what is Angus Taylor's stance on immigration? 58 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:38,080 S5: Well, he he's treading a little bit carefully at this point. 59 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,280 S4: The thing about Angus Taylor is that his reputation as 60 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,320 S4: far as he has one, he's mostly pretty unknown. He 61 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,880 S4: doesn't have a lot of policy success or political success 62 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:47,720 S4: to point back to. But as far as he is 63 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:50,920 S4: known for anything, it's for being a kind of traditional 64 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:57,550 S4: liberal in economic terms, free trade, um, global trade. And 65 00:03:58,150 --> 00:04:01,870 S4: a big part of that is actually supporting some reasonable 66 00:04:01,870 --> 00:04:04,950 S4: level of immigration. It's a recognition that you actually need 67 00:04:04,990 --> 00:04:09,390 S4: immigration as a significant part of the Australian economy. So 68 00:04:09,710 --> 00:04:13,310 S4: he's partly coming from that angle. But on the other hand, 69 00:04:13,510 --> 00:04:17,589 S4: the coalition clearly in competition with One Nation at this point. 70 00:04:17,910 --> 00:04:20,310 S4: There is a lot of pressure from the conservative side 71 00:04:20,310 --> 00:04:23,830 S4: of that party to take a very hard line on immigration. 72 00:04:24,070 --> 00:04:27,710 S4: Angus Taylor's main competitor for the leadership. Over the next 73 00:04:27,710 --> 00:04:30,350 S4: few years, the person will be coming up. Right behind 74 00:04:30,350 --> 00:04:33,870 S4: him is Andrew Hastie. Andrew Hastie has taken a very 75 00:04:33,870 --> 00:04:37,469 S4: hard line on immigration, which puts pressure on Angus Taylor 76 00:04:37,470 --> 00:04:39,950 S4: to run a pretty hard line. Quite apart from the 77 00:04:39,950 --> 00:04:43,310 S4: pressure that's coming from One Nation, what he has said 78 00:04:43,310 --> 00:04:46,590 S4: so far, he has a particular soundbite, which is the 79 00:04:46,589 --> 00:04:49,910 S4: numbers have been too high and the standards have been 80 00:04:49,910 --> 00:04:50,589 S4: too low. 81 00:04:50,870 --> 00:04:54,870 S6: You've heard me talk already about key priorities, immigration. We've 82 00:04:54,870 --> 00:04:58,820 S6: got to make sure that we get the standards up 83 00:04:59,260 --> 00:05:01,659 S6: and the numbers have been too high. But we've also 84 00:05:01,660 --> 00:05:05,140 S6: got to make sure that Australians who want to come 85 00:05:05,140 --> 00:05:08,860 S6: to our country, or foreigners indeed, who want to come 86 00:05:08,860 --> 00:05:12,460 S6: to our country, who don't believe in our way of life, 87 00:05:12,460 --> 00:05:15,060 S6: who want to bring the hatred and violence from another 88 00:05:15,060 --> 00:05:18,620 S6: place to our shores, that the door is shut. 89 00:05:18,660 --> 00:05:22,500 S4: And I think that's a really dangerous phrase. Standards have 90 00:05:22,500 --> 00:05:27,620 S4: been too low because while he can point to examples 91 00:05:27,620 --> 00:05:32,180 S4: where arguably migration migrate, clearly migration policies have let us 92 00:05:32,180 --> 00:05:37,900 S4: down on my being the obvious and recent one. More broadly, 93 00:05:37,940 --> 00:05:40,820 S4: I think it really sounds as though he's smearing a 94 00:05:40,820 --> 00:05:43,700 S4: very large group of people. Or at least it risks 95 00:05:43,700 --> 00:05:47,820 S4: sounding like that. And the problem for Angus Taylor is 96 00:05:47,820 --> 00:05:50,460 S4: that his party has a bit of form on this. 97 00:05:50,900 --> 00:05:53,700 S4: Peter Dutton, very recently the leader, of course, talked about 98 00:05:53,700 --> 00:05:57,400 S4: Malcolm Fraser it having made a mistake by bringing in 99 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:02,600 S4: groups of Lebanese migrants. More recently, at the last election, 100 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:06,240 S4: Jane Hume talking about Chinese spies helping the Labor Party. 101 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:10,839 S4: Jacinta Nampijinpa price, apparently in line for promotion under Angus Taylor, 102 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:14,599 S4: talking about Indian migrants being more likely to vote. Labor 103 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:18,240 S4: and labor are, you know, speeding up their migration, I think, 104 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:22,160 S4: was the quote. Uh, and so any comments on migration 105 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:26,040 S4: are likely to be read in that framework. Now, that's 106 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:28,080 S4: a bit of a double edged sword for the Liberal Party. 107 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,039 S4: I think they'll be happy that some people are reading 108 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:33,320 S4: them that way. You know, it's um, it's a pretty 109 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:36,680 S4: loud dog whistle that they'll be happy some people will hear. 110 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:40,240 S4: But I think it risks alienating huge numbers of people 111 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,839 S4: as well. We have to remember, quite apart from the many, many, 112 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,680 S4: many people who are very supportive of migration because it's 113 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,480 S4: done wonderful things for this country. There are also just 114 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,680 S4: very high numbers of migrants in this country. One third 115 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:57,070 S4: of Australian residents were born overseas. So this is this 116 00:06:57,070 --> 00:07:00,390 S4: is very dangerous political territory for the coalition, I think. 117 00:07:00,790 --> 00:07:03,430 S2: Well that's right. And I thought the broad understanding was 118 00:07:03,430 --> 00:07:05,190 S2: that the Liberal Party was going to have to skew 119 00:07:05,230 --> 00:07:07,950 S2: more to the centre if it were to have any 120 00:07:07,950 --> 00:07:10,790 S2: chance of surviving as a party. I mean, Angus Taylor, 121 00:07:10,790 --> 00:07:13,230 S2: when he won the the leadership of the party, he 122 00:07:13,270 --> 00:07:15,230 S2: himself admitted, you know, if there was going to be 123 00:07:15,230 --> 00:07:20,190 S2: an election today, it's possible that his party would face extinction. 124 00:07:20,470 --> 00:07:22,910 S2: So what are the chances that he has any interest 125 00:07:22,910 --> 00:07:25,630 S2: in skewing towards the middle? Because we do know that 126 00:07:25,630 --> 00:07:29,030 S2: just on this issue of immigration, his quote when he 127 00:07:29,310 --> 00:07:31,950 S2: took the mantle of the leadership was our borders have 128 00:07:31,950 --> 00:07:34,030 S2: been open to people who hate our way of life, 129 00:07:34,030 --> 00:07:36,310 S2: people who don't want to embrace Australia and who want 130 00:07:36,350 --> 00:07:39,950 S2: Australia to change for them, people who hate our way 131 00:07:39,950 --> 00:07:41,670 S2: of life. That's very strong language. 132 00:07:42,230 --> 00:07:44,790 S4: It is very strong language. There was a bit of 133 00:07:44,790 --> 00:07:48,950 S4: backgrounding in the Australian to the tune of Angus Taylor 134 00:07:48,950 --> 00:07:52,270 S4: wanted to lean pretty heavily into some culture war issues 135 00:07:52,310 --> 00:07:55,740 S4: and the Australian flag. The primacy of the Australian flag 136 00:07:56,460 --> 00:08:00,700 S4: into the description, I think being that the overabundance of 137 00:08:00,700 --> 00:08:03,940 S4: welcome to countries. I mean, these are issues which cause 138 00:08:04,020 --> 00:08:06,940 S4: Peter Dutton a lot of trouble. I think that he 139 00:08:06,940 --> 00:08:10,820 S4: thought were a real positive, but really helped typecast Peter 140 00:08:10,820 --> 00:08:14,540 S4: Dutton as a particular type of right wing culture warrior. 141 00:08:14,820 --> 00:08:17,500 S4: And so I think there is this open question about 142 00:08:17,500 --> 00:08:21,460 S4: whether Angus Taylor wants to go down that path, whether 143 00:08:21,460 --> 00:08:24,820 S4: he can play footsies with those types of issues without 144 00:08:24,820 --> 00:08:28,620 S4: being cast the same way Peter Dutton was cast, you know? 145 00:08:28,660 --> 00:08:30,900 S4: So again, I think we're in dangerous territory, and it 146 00:08:30,900 --> 00:08:34,540 S4: really speaks to the structural problem facing the Liberal Party. 147 00:08:34,780 --> 00:08:37,020 S4: They have two groups of voters they need to win 148 00:08:37,020 --> 00:08:39,740 S4: back to, to mean more than 1 in 4 Australians 149 00:08:39,740 --> 00:08:43,020 S4: wants to vote for for them. Some of those people 150 00:08:43,059 --> 00:08:46,179 S4: are currently saying they'll give their votes to One Nation. 151 00:08:46,420 --> 00:08:49,620 S4: Some of those people have been giving their votes the 152 00:08:49,620 --> 00:08:52,890 S4: last couple of elections to teal candidates. So how does 153 00:08:52,890 --> 00:08:55,050 S4: the party craft a set of policies and a set 154 00:08:55,050 --> 00:08:58,170 S4: of messages that brings back both the people who have 155 00:08:58,170 --> 00:09:00,730 S4: gone to one nation, and the people who have gone 156 00:09:00,730 --> 00:09:04,290 S4: to the teals? And it's very hard to see exactly 157 00:09:04,290 --> 00:09:06,170 S4: how the coalition does. And that goes to the other 158 00:09:06,170 --> 00:09:08,730 S4: big split in the coalition at the moment, which is 159 00:09:08,730 --> 00:09:13,450 S4: between urban areas and regional areas. The reality of the 160 00:09:13,450 --> 00:09:18,250 S4: coalition is that it has become a grouping representing rural 161 00:09:18,250 --> 00:09:22,170 S4: and regional Australia. It holds a tiny fraction of urban seats, 162 00:09:22,170 --> 00:09:25,690 S4: but it needs to win those urban seats back. And 163 00:09:26,130 --> 00:09:28,770 S4: you know, we're talking about migration. Migration tends to be 164 00:09:28,770 --> 00:09:33,050 S4: more focused on those urban areas. Um, so when the 165 00:09:33,050 --> 00:09:36,410 S4: coalition is pursuing in front of hard core anti-immigration line 166 00:09:36,450 --> 00:09:40,810 S4: of hard core anti-immigration rhetoric, it risks alienating those urban centres. 167 00:09:40,850 --> 00:09:45,209 S4: Angus Taylor was pushed on the weekend about whether migration 168 00:09:45,210 --> 00:09:49,490 S4: should be banned from certain countries or certain races or religions, 169 00:09:49,929 --> 00:09:52,309 S4: and he was very clear that it should not be 170 00:09:52,510 --> 00:09:57,110 S4: limited in those ways. And then the conversation was very 171 00:09:57,110 --> 00:10:02,630 S4: clearly about Islamic Australians. And he gave a pretty strong defence, 172 00:10:02,750 --> 00:10:09,069 S4: I think, of, you know, the vast majority of Islamic Australians. Uh, 173 00:10:09,070 --> 00:10:13,350 S4: so there's clearly some tendency in him to not go 174 00:10:13,350 --> 00:10:16,710 S4: all the way over to the Pauline Hanson side of things, 175 00:10:17,910 --> 00:10:19,470 S4: but he kind of faces a bit of a Suzanne 176 00:10:19,510 --> 00:10:22,709 S4: Lee issue. You know, you can say these things for 177 00:10:22,710 --> 00:10:24,830 S4: a little while. You can kind of play footsies for 178 00:10:24,830 --> 00:10:27,070 S4: a little while, but there's a conservative part of your 179 00:10:27,070 --> 00:10:30,270 S4: party that unless you're going all the way or keep 180 00:10:30,470 --> 00:10:34,150 S4: seeking for somebody more conservative who's willing to say things 181 00:10:34,150 --> 00:10:35,950 S4: exactly the way they want them to be said. 182 00:10:43,429 --> 00:10:44,430 S2: After the break. 183 00:10:45,790 --> 00:10:49,150 S4: I think my my greatest question at this point, and 184 00:10:49,150 --> 00:10:51,380 S4: I think it is the greatest question for the country 185 00:10:51,380 --> 00:10:56,459 S4: is just how toxic this debate around migration becomes. We 186 00:10:56,780 --> 00:11:02,260 S4: cannot possibly overstate how significant it is that Pauline Hanson 187 00:11:02,260 --> 00:11:05,580 S4: is doing as well in the polls as she is. 188 00:11:06,179 --> 00:11:09,740 S4: We know that the greatest force behind One Nation's rise 189 00:11:09,740 --> 00:11:14,819 S4: historically has been dislike of immigration. A secondary force related 190 00:11:14,820 --> 00:11:18,900 S4: force is distrust of government. Those are two very strong 191 00:11:18,900 --> 00:11:20,179 S4: forces at the moment. 192 00:11:29,660 --> 00:11:33,500 S2: I really want to ask you about the Tony Abbott question. He, 193 00:11:33,540 --> 00:11:36,820 S2: of course, our former Liberal prime minister and whether Angus 194 00:11:36,820 --> 00:11:39,500 S2: Taylor might follow in his footsteps in terms of his 195 00:11:39,500 --> 00:11:41,660 S2: stance on immigration. You know, it just regards what you 196 00:11:41,700 --> 00:11:44,140 S2: were saying about many within the party who, of course, 197 00:11:44,179 --> 00:11:47,340 S2: want to move it to the right to more conservative views, 198 00:11:47,340 --> 00:11:49,490 S2: because Tony Abbott gave an interview that I know you 199 00:11:49,490 --> 00:11:52,250 S2: and I were discussing before recording to ABC reporter Sarah 200 00:11:52,250 --> 00:11:55,650 S2: Ferguson over the weekend. I was a bit flabbergasted because 201 00:11:55,650 --> 00:11:58,490 S2: of what Tony Abbott had to say about immigration. So 202 00:11:58,490 --> 00:12:01,089 S2: just briefly tell us what he said, because then I 203 00:12:01,090 --> 00:12:03,490 S2: want to discuss with you what the connection, I guess, 204 00:12:03,530 --> 00:12:06,010 S2: is between Tony Abbott and Angus Taylor. 205 00:12:06,250 --> 00:12:09,250 S4: Yeah, sure. He said he preferred the approach to immigration 206 00:12:09,250 --> 00:12:11,890 S4: of the 50s, 60s and 70s. 207 00:12:13,410 --> 00:12:17,170 S1: I quite like the way our immigration policy was run 208 00:12:17,170 --> 00:12:20,930 S1: in the 50s, 60s and 70s, where there was an 209 00:12:20,929 --> 00:12:27,210 S1: expectation on integration from day one and ultimately assimilation. 210 00:12:27,490 --> 00:12:33,849 S4: He preferred the sense that migrants had to integrate immediately 211 00:12:34,050 --> 00:12:39,690 S4: and assimilate with time. That diversity in itself wasn't all 212 00:12:39,690 --> 00:12:40,770 S4: it's cracked up to be. 213 00:12:41,050 --> 00:12:43,770 S1: There's got to be a lot more stress on our 214 00:12:43,770 --> 00:12:48,360 S1: unity and far less on our diversity. And this idea 215 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:52,240 S1: that our diversity is somehow our strength, I think, is 216 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:54,839 S1: profoundly misguided. I think that we are. 217 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,320 S4: You know, these are pretty strong comments. It's worth remembering 218 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,000 S4: that the white Australia policy really was still in effect 219 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:06,079 S4: until 1966, when when Harold Holt, a liberal, reversed it. Uh, so, 220 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:09,280 S4: you know, Tony Abbott certainly didn't come out and directly 221 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:11,839 S4: say that he was in favour of the White Australia policy. 222 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:16,000 S4: He was referring to the general approach to assimilating migrants. 223 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:18,840 S4: But there's still pretty strong comments. And it's hard to 224 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:22,560 S4: know what Angus Taylor's comments because Pauline Hanson said, you know, 225 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:26,319 S4: they are a little bit broad and vague at the moment, 226 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:31,200 S4: but he's certainly talking about wanting people who love their country, um, 227 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:34,199 S4: who are proud to stand in front of the Australian flag. 228 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,559 S4: He's certainly not using language like assimilationist. Things are a 229 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,880 S4: matter of degree, and it's hard to know exactly how 230 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:45,200 S4: far he'll go in that direction at this point. But 231 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:46,980 S4: there will be a lot of pressure on him to 232 00:13:47,020 --> 00:13:48,380 S4: move in that type of direction. 233 00:13:48,940 --> 00:13:50,740 S2: And I did want to pick up on one thing 234 00:13:50,740 --> 00:13:53,140 S2: that you just said about Tony Abbott and about what 235 00:13:53,140 --> 00:13:57,180 S2: he said about quite liking the immigration approach of the 1950s. 236 00:13:57,220 --> 00:14:01,699 S2: 60s and 70s. You're right. He absolutely did not specify 237 00:14:01,740 --> 00:14:04,620 S2: directly that he wanted to return to the White Australia policy. 238 00:14:04,620 --> 00:14:07,140 S2: But certainly that's the first thing that came to my 239 00:14:07,140 --> 00:14:09,820 S2: mind when I heard his comment. So maybe just tell me, 240 00:14:09,860 --> 00:14:13,420 S2: what's the link between Tony Abbott and Angus Taylor? And 241 00:14:13,420 --> 00:14:16,860 S2: do you think that Abbott might have an impact, or 242 00:14:17,059 --> 00:14:19,580 S2: have Angus Taylor's ear on this and perhaps push him 243 00:14:19,580 --> 00:14:22,500 S2: to the right? Because we know that Angus Taylor's career 244 00:14:22,500 --> 00:14:26,180 S2: began with Tony Abbott's blessing in 2013, right? 245 00:14:26,620 --> 00:14:29,220 S4: Look, we know that Tony Abbott is still quite active 246 00:14:29,220 --> 00:14:31,500 S4: within the Liberal Party. He's very keen to drag the 247 00:14:31,500 --> 00:14:36,220 S4: Liberal Party around to his view of the world. Obviously, 248 00:14:36,260 --> 00:14:38,500 S4: he was knocked off by Malcolm Turnbull when he was 249 00:14:38,500 --> 00:14:40,380 S4: prime minister. There was a sense that the party was 250 00:14:40,380 --> 00:14:43,700 S4: going to go in another direction away from Tony Abbott. 251 00:14:43,700 --> 00:14:45,580 S4: And I think, you know, it's reasonable to say some 252 00:14:45,580 --> 00:14:47,690 S4: of his energy, a fair bit of his energy in 253 00:14:47,690 --> 00:14:50,210 S4: recent years has been spent trying to drag the party 254 00:14:50,210 --> 00:14:53,730 S4: back in a Tony Abbott esque direction. And, you know, 255 00:14:53,770 --> 00:14:57,010 S4: he has succeeded to a fairly great extent. I think 256 00:14:57,010 --> 00:15:00,330 S4: what those comments speak to at a broader level is 257 00:15:00,330 --> 00:15:03,930 S4: the powerful role that nostalgia plays in our politics. It 258 00:15:03,930 --> 00:15:08,930 S4: plays historically a very strong role in conservative politics, but 259 00:15:08,930 --> 00:15:11,610 S4: I think we are beginning to see it take on 260 00:15:11,650 --> 00:15:14,490 S4: a role in left politics as well. There is a 261 00:15:14,490 --> 00:15:18,530 S4: sense among broad swathes of people that our society has 262 00:15:18,530 --> 00:15:21,290 S4: taken a wrong turn somewhere, and people will put that 263 00:15:21,290 --> 00:15:23,050 S4: down to different things. Some people will put it down 264 00:15:23,050 --> 00:15:25,370 S4: to technology, some people will put it down to the 265 00:15:25,410 --> 00:15:31,050 S4: particular operations of capitalism, neoliberalism. Some people will scapegoat migration, 266 00:15:31,490 --> 00:15:34,650 S4: but they are they are all different forms of nostalgia. 267 00:15:34,690 --> 00:15:39,690 S4: Nostalgia isn't necessarily a bad thing in itself, but we 268 00:15:39,690 --> 00:15:42,290 S4: need to always be wary of the way that it 269 00:15:42,290 --> 00:15:47,240 S4: simplifies debates, because the novelist Zadie Smith, at this point, 270 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,680 S4: you know, nostalgia is all very well. You can say 271 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:53,800 S4: that things were great 30, 40 years ago, but that 272 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,840 S4: is not true for all people. There were some people, 273 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,600 S4: vast numbers of people in this country for whom life 274 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,280 S4: is pretty rough. A few decades ago, they were essentially 275 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:07,680 S4: excluded from much of society. So, you know, we need 276 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,120 S4: to be wary of the blunt force of nostalgia. 277 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,320 S2: Definitely. We only have to look at what's happening in 278 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,360 S2: the United States. Obviously, there's much bigger forces at work there. 279 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:17,520 S2: But of course, that's what make America Great again. I mean, 280 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:18,560 S2: talk about nostalgia. 281 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:22,600 S4: Right? I think my my greatest question at this point, 282 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:24,880 S4: and I think it is the greatest question for the country, 283 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:30,080 S4: is just how toxic this debate around migration becomes. We 284 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:35,880 S4: cannot possibly overstate how significant it is that Pauline Hanson 285 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,800 S4: is doing as well in the polls as she is. Um, 286 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:44,270 S4: we know that the greatest force behind One Nation's rise 287 00:16:44,270 --> 00:16:49,670 S4: historically has been dislike of immigration, a secondary force related forces, 288 00:16:49,670 --> 00:16:53,830 S4: distrust of government. Those are two very strong forces at 289 00:16:53,830 --> 00:16:56,630 S4: the moment, we know. Ten years ago, I think it 290 00:16:56,630 --> 00:16:59,310 S4: was a third of Australians thought migration was too high. 291 00:16:59,470 --> 00:17:02,190 S4: That is half of Australians now. So there is a 292 00:17:02,190 --> 00:17:05,230 S4: potential for this debate to get very ugly. I think 293 00:17:05,270 --> 00:17:08,590 S4: Angus Taylor, maybe he does. Well, maybe he doesn't. For me, 294 00:17:08,590 --> 00:17:11,190 S4: that is not as important as the structural forces which 295 00:17:11,190 --> 00:17:12,950 S4: are roiling Australian politics right now. 296 00:17:18,070 --> 00:17:20,190 S2: Thank you so much for your time. 297 00:17:21,109 --> 00:17:21,910 S4: Thank you again. 298 00:17:31,470 --> 00:17:35,030 S2: In other news, today, lawyers for the Duke will return 299 00:17:35,030 --> 00:17:38,150 S2: to the Federal Court in Melbourne today for its blockbuster 300 00:17:38,150 --> 00:17:41,869 S2: court battle with Coles. The case alleges the supermarket giant 301 00:17:41,869 --> 00:17:47,130 S2: created illusory discounts on a range of household goods and 302 00:17:47,130 --> 00:17:50,530 S2: a religious charity run by controversial Sydney Bishop mar Mari. 303 00:17:50,530 --> 00:17:55,570 S2: Emmanuel has lodged plans to spend $2.2 million building a 304 00:17:55,570 --> 00:17:59,290 S2: luxury home with six bedrooms, a library, a music room 305 00:17:59,290 --> 00:18:03,530 S2: and an extensive underground garage. The development is the latest 306 00:18:03,530 --> 00:18:07,609 S2: property move for the tax exempt One Jesus Limited, which 307 00:18:07,609 --> 00:18:10,770 S2: has bought a string of homes for people with special needs. 308 00:18:11,609 --> 00:18:14,609 S2: Read these headlines and more on the Sydney Morning Herald 309 00:18:15,850 --> 00:18:22,610 S2: and The Age. Today's episode was produced by Josh towers. 310 00:18:22,770 --> 00:18:26,370 S2: Our executive producer is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are 311 00:18:26,369 --> 00:18:30,170 S2: overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like 312 00:18:30,210 --> 00:18:33,169 S2: our show, follow the Morning Edition and leave a review 313 00:18:33,170 --> 00:18:36,650 S2: for us on Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.