WEBVTT - The Sydney Swans sexual assault allegations 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:06.200 Another scandal involving an alleged sexual assault has erupted in 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:09.639 the AFL. This time, a number of players from the 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:13.039 Sydney Swans football team have been spoken to by police 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:16.360 after an alleged incident occurred in the early hours of 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:21.120 Monday morning. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris and you're listening to 0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:25.599 The Morning Edition from The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald. Today, 0:00:25.640 --> 0:00:28.920 The Age's chief AFL writer Jake Niall on what we 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:32.800 know now. And just a note, this masthead is not 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:36.519 suggesting the players are under investigation by police, just that 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:41.519 they are assisting with their inquiries. Welcome, Jake, to the podcast. 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:43.000 Oh thanks, Samantha. 0:00:43.600 --> 0:00:46.519 Now, Jake, we're recording this on Tuesday afternoon, so can 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:49.040 you just tell us what you know so far about 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:51.159 how this incident has unfolded? 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:57.280 Well, the Sydney Swans played against Essendon on Sunday. Late 0:00:57.320 --> 0:01:00.600 late game. By the time I get back to you know, 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:02.680 you leave the bus from the ground. You're looking at, 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:07.270 you know, after 8:00. Some of the players have gone out, 0:01:07.750 --> 0:01:11.709 and there's a group of five players that have stayed 0:01:11.709 --> 0:01:15.230 behind as a result of an incident that, uh, police 0:01:15.230 --> 0:01:17.150 are investigating at the hotel room. 0:01:17.190 --> 0:01:20.709 Good afternoon. The Sydney Swans are today in turmoil, the 0:01:20.709 --> 0:01:24.789 club confirming several players are embroiled in an alleged incident 0:01:24.790 --> 0:01:28.510 as Victoria Police investigates reports of a sexual assault at 0:01:28.510 --> 0:01:29.390 a Melbourne hotel. 0:01:29.430 --> 0:01:34.910 Police swarmed the hotel room on Monday morning and they 0:01:35.069 --> 0:01:39.150 took CCTV and people in. The people in the hotel 0:01:39.190 --> 0:01:40.390 obviously have been spoken to. 0:01:40.430 --> 0:01:42.630 In the early hours of this morning. Police will allege 0:01:42.630 --> 0:01:45.990 this sexual assault case has occurred at the Pullman Hotel 0:01:45.990 --> 0:01:49.350 in Melbourne, which is where the Swans were staying. We 0:01:49.350 --> 0:01:51.390 had uniformed and plainclothes. 0:01:51.390 --> 0:01:54.310 Police go in and out of the Pullman Hotel yesterday. 0:01:54.750 --> 0:01:58.870 We're extremely shocked and disappointed that this has taken place 0:01:58.870 --> 0:02:02.390 and that the players have found themselves in this situation. 0:02:02.430 --> 0:02:04.550 Given it's a police matter right now, that is all 0:02:04.590 --> 0:02:05.550 that we can say. 0:02:05.990 --> 0:02:11.370 Yeah, obviously extremely disappointed with what's happened and understand the questions. 0:02:11.370 --> 0:02:15.250 And we'll update as we as we gather more information. 0:02:15.810 --> 0:02:18.489 We've named four of the players and two of them 0:02:18.490 --> 0:02:24.170 are star players in Isaac Heeney and, uh, Chad Warner. Uh, 0:02:24.330 --> 0:02:28.970 and there's also James Jordan and Riley Vice. The players 0:02:28.970 --> 0:02:33.090 have not been formally interviewed by the police. But of course, 0:02:33.090 --> 0:02:37.530 in an investigation of this type, Sam, the police have 0:02:37.530 --> 0:02:40.169 to look at have to get the information first from 0:02:40.210 --> 0:02:43.730 those making the allegations before they do formal interviews of 0:02:43.730 --> 0:02:47.130 record with players, either whether that's as there's an allegation 0:02:47.130 --> 0:02:50.330 against one of one or more of them or as witnesses. 0:02:50.330 --> 0:02:53.770 And as it stands now, um, the players, it's all 0:02:53.770 --> 0:02:56.210 but certain that they won't be playing on the weekend. 0:02:56.850 --> 0:03:00.210 Um and that there'll be some sort of um punitive 0:03:00.210 --> 0:03:04.690 action taken not because of what they've allegedly done or 0:03:04.690 --> 0:03:06.530 not done, but I haven't got to that stage yet 0:03:06.530 --> 0:03:10.880 in the process. The AFL doesn't step in to criminal investigations. 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:14.040 It lets that take its course. But they can be 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:18.640 suspended for getting themselves into that position by the club 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:19.440 and the league. 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:23.120 Okay. And you mentioned that police have spoken to five 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:26.040 players of the Sydney Swans. We've named four of those players. 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:29.000 Why at this point hasn't the fifth player been named? 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:33.040 Well, the fifth player there's pushback from a representative of 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:36.360 the of the fifth player to say that he wasn't 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:41.920 involved now. Um I can't at this point answer that 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:46.280 you know accurately what to say accurately with full, you know, 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:48.480 with with the full facts of that. There's a lot 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:51.240 of there's a lot of question marks over what is 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:56.680 actually occurred. And there's obviously the interest in this as 0:03:56.680 --> 0:03:58.680 a story is it's one of the biggest stories you'd 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:01.720 find in the AFL. Um, and it will have huge 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:03.960 bearing on, you know, the final series on all sorts 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:07.760 of things, the reputation of the Swans, the individual's careers. 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:11.760 It's got a lot of potential fallouts. Then again, we 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:16.339 we don't know enough about the incident, right. Except that 0:04:16.339 --> 0:04:20.180 the there's a there's a sexual assault allegation. 0:04:21.180 --> 0:04:24.339 And so who has actually been talking about the allegations 0:04:24.339 --> 0:04:27.180 since the reporting emerged on Monday? I mean, have we 0:04:27.180 --> 0:04:30.580 heard from the alleged victim? And what about the AFL 0:04:30.580 --> 0:04:31.820 and the club's leadership? 0:04:31.860 --> 0:04:36.539 Well, Matthew Pavelich, the club CEO, he he fronted a 0:04:36.700 --> 0:04:39.380 media conference yesterday, but he really just read a statement 0:04:39.380 --> 0:04:42.779 and didn't answer any questions. Uh, and then the coach, 0:04:42.820 --> 0:04:46.540 Dean Cox, and they both expressed disappointment was the one 0:04:46.540 --> 0:04:48.620 of the one of the words used that was Matthew Pavelich, 0:04:48.620 --> 0:04:51.820 the CEO is a former champion player at Fremantle. Um, 0:04:51.860 --> 0:04:53.659 and a, you know, a figure of renown in the 0:04:53.660 --> 0:04:56.420 game of, you know, an absolute great of the game. Uh, 0:04:56.540 --> 0:05:00.620 and Dean Cox, the coach, um, he, he, he would 0:05:00.620 --> 0:05:03.180 feel this very personally. My understanding from what I've been 0:05:03.180 --> 0:05:05.779 told is the swans are the words that were used were, 0:05:05.779 --> 0:05:10.380 are filthy with, with the players getting themselves into this position. They, 0:05:10.420 --> 0:05:14.500 of course, will be caught between defending their own values, 0:05:14.500 --> 0:05:18.969 their own reputations, their own brand, and at the same time, um, 0:05:19.010 --> 0:05:24.170 making sure the players are held accountable. But the players 0:05:24.170 --> 0:05:27.290 are valuable assets for the club. It's always a very 0:05:27.290 --> 0:05:30.810 tricky situation. And this is why the AFL will step 0:05:30.810 --> 0:05:33.250 in and the AFL's got to be involved. They're not 0:05:33.250 --> 0:05:36.650 talking directly to the players but they are dealing with 0:05:36.650 --> 0:05:39.930 the Swans officials. Tom Harley, who's a senior figure at 0:05:39.970 --> 0:05:42.050 uh at the AFL, he's basically the two I see. 0:05:42.490 --> 0:05:46.729 He was the club CEO for only what, a year ago? So, uh, 0:05:46.770 --> 0:05:49.010 you know, so he'll be he'll be doing he'll be 0:05:49.050 --> 0:05:52.010 he's involved in that. Um, and of course the club, 0:05:52.050 --> 0:05:55.090 the AFL CEO Andrew Dillon. I mean, the buck stops 0:05:55.089 --> 0:05:57.290 with him when it's something this serious. He was the 0:05:57.290 --> 0:06:00.810 former legal counsel of the AFL. He's a lawyer. He's 0:06:00.810 --> 0:06:02.450 right on top of it. And there's a number of 0:06:02.450 --> 0:06:04.810 other people. The integrity unit, the AFL have their own 0:06:04.810 --> 0:06:08.130 integrity unit to deal with matters, but they can't. The 0:06:08.170 --> 0:06:12.170 AFL can't get interfere with police processes. So this will 0:06:12.170 --> 0:06:15.610 play out through the police before the AFL, uh, deals 0:06:15.610 --> 0:06:18.030 fully with it. It would be would be my understanding 0:06:18.029 --> 0:06:20.150 of how it works. And that's over a lot of 0:06:20.150 --> 0:06:23.150 these cases that I've seen, regrettably. Samantha. Too many. 0:06:23.589 --> 0:06:26.270 And so what's happened to the players in this particular instance? Like, 0:06:26.310 --> 0:06:29.950 have they been stood down officially or suspended from the 0:06:29.950 --> 0:06:32.150 game while this investigation takes place? 0:06:32.270 --> 0:06:34.830 Well, they some of them didn't attend training, I gather, 0:06:34.830 --> 0:06:37.349 but um, I would be staggered. I think they won't 0:06:37.350 --> 0:06:40.510 play this weekend. They're just I just don't see that happening. 0:06:40.790 --> 0:06:44.190 And very likely they'll be uh, they'll be suspended by 0:06:44.190 --> 0:06:46.310 the club slash AFL. I think the AFL and the 0:06:46.310 --> 0:06:48.590 club will come to some sort of almost an agreement. 0:06:48.950 --> 0:06:51.390 Um they can be of course suspended under the rules. 0:06:51.430 --> 0:06:53.990 There's a, there's a range of AFL rules I won't 0:06:54.029 --> 0:06:56.670 bore the listeners with, but you know, bringing the game 0:06:56.670 --> 0:06:59.710 into disrepute, conduct unbecoming. There's all sorts of things. It's 0:06:59.710 --> 0:07:04.190 important though that whatever they get suspended with, it's not 0:07:04.190 --> 0:07:08.390 prejudicing a police matter. So those two processes are kept 0:07:08.390 --> 0:07:09.190 very separate. 0:07:09.750 --> 0:07:11.950 Well, I really wanted to ask you about this so-called, 0:07:11.990 --> 0:07:14.710 you know, bringing the game into disrepute because it's been 0:07:14.710 --> 0:07:17.750 reported that, you know, these five Sydney Swans players, that's 0:07:17.750 --> 0:07:19.870 what they're going to be charged with. You know, they'll 0:07:19.870 --> 0:07:23.100 miss several matches because they brought the game into disrepute. 0:07:23.500 --> 0:07:26.580 And are we to understand that that disrepute charge is 0:07:26.580 --> 0:07:30.300 about them being out drinking when normally that's not permitted? 0:07:30.300 --> 0:07:33.500 Or is it or is it about this allegation of 0:07:33.500 --> 0:07:34.420 sexual assault? 0:07:35.060 --> 0:07:39.060 Well, it can't be about the allegation of the sexual assault, 0:07:40.100 --> 0:07:43.340 because that has to be dealt with by the police. 0:07:44.100 --> 0:07:47.460 And you can't interfere with the laws of the land. 0:07:47.460 --> 0:07:49.460 The laws of the land come first. It's one of 0:07:49.460 --> 0:07:53.100 those situations where they have to take action, but at 0:07:53.100 --> 0:07:55.900 the same time, they can't prejudice, right? What's what's going 0:07:55.900 --> 0:08:00.020 to happen in the future and that the timelines just 0:08:00.020 --> 0:08:02.739 probably don't match up at all. I mean, typically I'm 0:08:02.780 --> 0:08:05.860 not a legal or police expert, but these things take 0:08:05.860 --> 0:08:08.540 a lot longer than the what the season would be, 0:08:08.580 --> 0:08:11.340 you would say. I mean, they don't get necessarily resolved 0:08:11.340 --> 0:08:15.700 in in months, let alone weeks. So I think you'll 0:08:15.700 --> 0:08:19.140 see a punishment. Uh, they'll get a, you know, let's 0:08:19.140 --> 0:08:22.540 say two weeks and then it'll probably have to be uniform. 0:08:22.540 --> 0:08:24.720 This is my view of it. It'll probably have to 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:27.960 be a uniform punishment because if it's not uniform, Sam, 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:31.160 then it's it's starting to err on the side of 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:34.240 which player is culpable. And that's getting into where the 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:36.920 criminal matter lies. Does that make sense? 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:39.240 It does make sense. And I do want to now 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:41.559 ask you a question more broadly about, I guess, the 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:45.319 AFL versus the NRL when it comes to handling allegations 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:48.680 like this, because your colleague, age sports reporter Peter Ryan, 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:50.880 has argued that there's a big question that the AFL 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:53.559 needs to address now. And that is, of course, whether 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:56.280 it needs a no fault stand down policy for the 0:08:56.280 --> 0:08:59.439 code for its players. Obviously, this is something the NRL 0:08:59.480 --> 0:09:03.240 introduced after a string of allegations were made against its players. 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:05.400 So can you just talk us through this issue? What 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:08.760 does the AFL have in place for instances when players 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:10.880 are accused of a crime? And of course, we have 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:13.960 to reiterate these five players that we've spoken about. They 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:16.640 haven't been accused of a crime yet, but what does 0:09:16.640 --> 0:09:18.160 the AFL have in place? 0:09:18.840 --> 0:09:22.680 Well, the AFL, the AFL doesn't have what the NRL has. 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:26.230 The the NRL has a stand down policy Which is 0:09:26.230 --> 0:09:33.030 only triggered above for, uh, above a certain thresholds for crime. 0:09:33.190 --> 0:09:35.990 The AFL does not have that policy. They have a 0:09:35.990 --> 0:09:38.790 case by case basis. Uh, there was a case last 0:09:38.790 --> 0:09:43.630 year where a Geelong player, Geelong Football Club, uh, Tanner Bruin, um, 0:09:43.630 --> 0:09:46.150 he was unnamed. He was on this leave of absence. 0:09:46.150 --> 0:09:48.630 He was subject to a suppression order. People could see 0:09:48.630 --> 0:09:51.830 he wasn't playing. It was never mentioned why he wasn't playing. 0:09:52.230 --> 0:09:57.069 He was, um, essentially stood down by or um, by 0:09:57.070 --> 0:10:00.350 the game. And he was not playing in that period 0:10:00.350 --> 0:10:02.310 until he was cleared. He was actually cleared of the 0:10:02.309 --> 0:10:06.589 charge eventually. And um, but everyone of course discovered that 0:10:06.590 --> 0:10:09.030 it was people could work out what was going on. 0:10:09.030 --> 0:10:12.270 And in more breaking news, rape charges against Geelong player 0:10:12.270 --> 0:10:16.550 Tanner Bruin have been sensationally dropped. The AFL midfielder and 0:10:16.550 --> 0:10:19.870 his friend Patrick Synnott, were charged with rape after being 0:10:19.910 --> 0:10:21.870 accused of sexually assaulting a woman. 0:10:21.910 --> 0:10:24.870 I guess the bottom line is the AFL follows what the. 0:10:25.030 --> 0:10:28.070 It doesn't jump in on on it to the degree 0:10:28.070 --> 0:10:30.690 that the NRL does, and it's quite a bit of 0:10:30.690 --> 0:10:34.970 criticism for not having a stand down policy. Um, it's 0:10:34.970 --> 0:10:38.690 an interesting debate because what happens if the player, uh, 0:10:38.730 --> 0:10:45.090 is cleared and it takes three years that conceivably can happen. 0:10:45.290 --> 0:10:49.090 So it's an interesting discussion. But the AFL has chosen 0:10:49.290 --> 0:10:53.530 as an organisation Sam. They're an outfit that likes to 0:10:53.809 --> 0:10:57.850 maintain flexibility. I've always felt I've always wanted to be 0:10:57.890 --> 0:11:00.890 able to dispense their own forms of justice. I'm not 0:11:00.890 --> 0:11:03.210 going to call them arbitrary, but and say they make 0:11:03.210 --> 0:11:05.090 it up as they go along. But they have a 0:11:05.130 --> 0:11:07.689 they have a tendency to be very pragmatic about outcomes 0:11:07.690 --> 0:11:08.730 rather than pure. 0:11:09.090 --> 0:11:11.050 And just to wrap up, Jake, I wanted to ask 0:11:11.050 --> 0:11:13.730 you about one broad question because there's already some frustration 0:11:13.770 --> 0:11:17.570 out there, including from AFL player Kate McCarthy, that some 0:11:17.570 --> 0:11:21.610 other reporting has focused on the impact on Sydney's finals 0:11:21.650 --> 0:11:24.650 chances and not on the alleged victim or the sexual 0:11:24.650 --> 0:11:26.610 assault allegations. So what do you make of that? 0:11:26.770 --> 0:11:29.290 Yeah, I think Kate makes a valid point. I made 0:11:29.290 --> 0:11:33.440 that point on channel nine this morning that the ramifications 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:40.440 for the Swans finals is really a secondary point. You've 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:44.680 got to consider the alleged victim and you've got to consider, um, 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:49.480 the the the what this is as an incident for 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:53.480 people as opposed to a football club. And I think 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:55.440 sometimes that can be lost. But of course, the reason 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:58.400 everyone's getting publicity here and everyone's interested in it is 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:02.600 because they're football stars. And that's um, that's a part 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:06.520 of the celebrity culture that sport, uh, embraces for better 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:07.040 or worse. 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:10.240 Well, thank you so much, Jake, for your time. 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:11.040 Thanks, Sam. 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:19.600 Today's episode was produced by Tammy Mills, and our podcasts 0:12:19.600 --> 0:12:23.320 are overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:26.160 like our show, follow the Morning Edition and leave a 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:29.920 review for us on Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.