WEBVTT - Remarkable Australian: Sue Woodall

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<v Speaker 1>That time and a Sunday where we chat to extraordinary Australians. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>as we say, ordinary Australians doing extraordinary things. And today

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<v Speaker 1>we're talking to Sue Woodhall. Now, Sue was in her

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<v Speaker 1>late fifties. She was a high flyer in the public service,

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<v Speaker 1>holding a senior position. It looked as though nothing would

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<v Speaker 1>stop her. Then one day along comes that awful breast cancer.

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<v Speaker 1>She tried to negotiate pathway back to work after going

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<v Speaker 1>through treatment and the like, but as a full extent

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<v Speaker 1>of well symptoms following treatment became clear, those hopes seemingly disappeared.

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<v Speaker 1>Eventually her employer made it clear that they couldn't hold

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<v Speaker 1>the role open. Now, what she decided then, and this

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<v Speaker 1>is what makes the people we speak to at this

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<v Speaker 1>time on a Sunday so remarkable. What she wanted to

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<v Speaker 1>do was to say this doesn't happen to anyone else.

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<v Speaker 1>So she founded the ad Vicausey Group Live Work Cancer,

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<v Speaker 1>a Britain organization supporting those negotiating their entry and exit

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<v Speaker 1>from work around their diagnosis, while pushing businesses to show

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<v Speaker 1>compassion to employees battling cancer. Let's find out more about

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<v Speaker 1>the work and life of Sue. What all I'm delighted

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<v Speaker 1>to say is on the line. Good morning, so thank

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<v Speaker 1>you so much for your time. How's your health? I

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<v Speaker 1>have to start there.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, firstly, good morning, Luke, and thank you for the

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<v Speaker 2>opportunity to chat with you this morning. Asolutely my health, well,

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<v Speaker 2>it's good. I feel that cancer is not in my body,

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<v Speaker 2>but we don't really know. We never really know. But

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<v Speaker 2>I'm coming up from our fifth anniversary next month, so brilliant.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm in a good place and I'm doing something that

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<v Speaker 2>I'm really passionate about.

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<v Speaker 3>Believe in it.

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<v Speaker 2>I've got both a lived experience but the understanding from

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<v Speaker 2>so much research into this area of when cancer arrives

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<v Speaker 2>when we're working.

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<v Speaker 1>This is again full credit to you. Firstly, I'm delighted

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<v Speaker 1>to know that you're coming up to five years but

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<v Speaker 1>turning into what was such a negative outcome in your

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<v Speaker 1>life to turn it into what you're doing now is brilliant.

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<v Speaker 1>So I'll remind people at the end of our chat

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<v Speaker 1>to go to livework cancer dot com. Tell me what

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<v Speaker 1>happened to your career if you can. How did you

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<v Speaker 1>find yourself in the position where the career was just

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<v Speaker 1>about done?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I guess, Luke. It starts with.

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<v Speaker 2>Firstly the diagnosis, and then I've got a treatment plan

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<v Speaker 2>from the oncologist which said two and a half years

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<v Speaker 2>of at what they call active treatment, and then another

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<v Speaker 2>sort of five to seven years of treatment because of

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<v Speaker 2>the type of breast cancer I had. And so after

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<v Speaker 2>you know, a couple of surgeries, five months of chemo

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<v Speaker 2>radiation therapy and the first lot of the called targeted therapies,

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<v Speaker 2>I felt that, yeah, twelve months I could probably start

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<v Speaker 2>to consider returning to work. So developed a return to

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<v Speaker 2>work plan which really needed to consider all of the

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<v Speaker 2>side effects and some of the challenges for not just

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<v Speaker 2>our buddies at work, but also our families, our friends

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<v Speaker 2>to understand the real impact that the treatment imposes on us.

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<v Speaker 2>And many of these are invisible.

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<v Speaker 3>So the three that.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll talk about this morning that probably made it very

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<v Speaker 2>difficult in terms of just switching from not working to

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<v Speaker 2>going back to work was what they call brain fog

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<v Speaker 2>or chemo chemo brain. The technical term is cancer related

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<v Speaker 2>cognitive impairment. Yes, and that basically I couldn't think I

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<v Speaker 2>was one of the fortunate ones because I had income protection,

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<v Speaker 2>but I couldn't fill up the income protection forms.

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<v Speaker 1>So can I ask you this might be such a

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<v Speaker 1>stupid question, Sue, but did you know could you understand

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<v Speaker 1>what was going on? Was the impairment your ability not

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<v Speaker 1>to complete the form or were you completely unattached from

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<v Speaker 1>a sense of reality if.

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<v Speaker 2>You will, Well, yeah, I like, you know, put your

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<v Speaker 2>name here, your first name and then your second name.

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<v Speaker 2>I couldn't get that right. I couldn't get the address

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<v Speaker 2>in the right boxes. So what happens is and it

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't happen to everyone that has chemo, and it depends

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<v Speaker 2>on the type of chemo, and there's many different types.

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<v Speaker 2>But for some of us, the chain in our cognition,

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<v Speaker 2>our executive functioning is real, and it was.

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<v Speaker 3>One of the side effects I had absolutely no idea about.

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<v Speaker 2>I did expect the second one, which was fatigue and

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<v Speaker 2>that sort of you do nothing in the day and

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<v Speaker 2>you're exhausted, But the cognition issues were really front and center.

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<v Speaker 2>So when I was thinking about returning to work, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I had to explain that meeting with ministers, meeting with secretaries, you.

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<v Speaker 3>Know, fronting up.

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<v Speaker 2>It was an audience of very senior public servants or

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<v Speaker 2>suppliers or whomever. I wouldn't be able to do that.

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<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't be able to do it to the same

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<v Speaker 2>level that I could do before my diagnosis. And it

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<v Speaker 2>was a shock to me, and I think it was

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<v Speaker 2>a learning for those around me, both at work and

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<v Speaker 2>also in my friends and my family.

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<v Speaker 3>And I was talking to a researcher who does a lot.

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<v Speaker 2>Of work around cancer related cognitive impairment, Darren Haywood, and

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<v Speaker 2>sort of said, well, why don't why don't we get

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<v Speaker 2>told about this? And it's a really you know, it's

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<v Speaker 2>a really important question that's we don't want to sort

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<v Speaker 2>of frighten everyone. Say, well, if you have chemo, you may,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, you may, your brain might sort of stop working.

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<v Speaker 2>But the having the conversations with your cancer nurse, you're oncologist,

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<v Speaker 2>your psychologist, they help you to understand that what you're

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<v Speaker 2>experiencing is real and and also it's not You're not unique.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, on one on one level, if a doctor's

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<v Speaker 1>brave enough, well a doctor's not brave enough. But if

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<v Speaker 1>doctor fronts you with the confronting news that they have

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<v Speaker 1>discovered a tumor, then you would imagine that, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>if that's tough enough, But what follows should be the

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<v Speaker 1>tough conversation about it just worries me that we say, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, it's a bit difficult to talk about and

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<v Speaker 1>no you're not saying that, but you know this is

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<v Speaker 1>not You can't just have certain aspects of the illness

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<v Speaker 1>and the treatment. This is a whole box and dice.

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<v Speaker 1>So what I what I want to understand to is

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<v Speaker 1>in your workplace or with your employer, because you sound

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<v Speaker 1>perfectly like the sort of person would say, well, if

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<v Speaker 1>I've got a cognitive impairment, I can't be expected to make,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, very big decisions. Well what do we want

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<v Speaker 1>our employers to do? What? Where? Do they kind of

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<v Speaker 1>miss the boat because it's equally wrong to say, well, sorry,

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<v Speaker 1>you can't work anymore.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, yeah, look there's a few things. And let me

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<v Speaker 2>say the outset that when I realized the impact on

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<v Speaker 2>my work and then the inability, we tried to get

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<v Speaker 2>a pathway back from me, but it.

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<v Speaker 3>Just didn't didn't happen. Wasn't possible. They did their best.

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<v Speaker 2>But once I started to get a bit of cognition

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<v Speaker 2>back and I started to read some of the research,

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<v Speaker 2>I then was able to walk in my boss's shoes,

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<v Speaker 2>and I had been a leader and manager for many decades,

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<v Speaker 2>and I felt that if I had been leading managing Sue,

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<v Speaker 2>how would I have actually responded? And that was one

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<v Speaker 2>of the AHA moments to set up Live Work Cancer.

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<v Speaker 2>Because it's not my boss's fault, it's not even I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>it's no one's fault. What we need is better advocacy

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<v Speaker 2>and awareness of what are cancer experiences like, and that

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<v Speaker 2>answers to answer your question, Luke, I mean, the first

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<v Speaker 2>thing is don't make assumptions about what your friend, your colleague,

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<v Speaker 2>your family members going to go through because there's so

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<v Speaker 2>many different there's over one hundred different types of cancer.

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<v Speaker 2>There's many many different subtypes. And if you make the

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<v Speaker 2>assumption that I've got breast cancer, so my colleague who's

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<v Speaker 2>just been diagnosed with breast cancer is going to go

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<v Speaker 2>through the same experience, that's the first mistake. That's the

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<v Speaker 2>first trip.

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<v Speaker 3>And so it's.

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<v Speaker 2>About understanding that cancer and its treatment and how our

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<v Speaker 2>body responds.

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<v Speaker 3>To all that treatment, that it is truly unique.

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<v Speaker 2>So what workplaces need to do firstly to start the

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<v Speaker 2>conversation about cant in the workplace because fifty percent of us,

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<v Speaker 2>unfortunately will be will experience cancer, and somewhere around forty

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<v Speaker 2>percent will be working when they're here their.

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<v Speaker 3>Words, you've got cancer. So yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And then since two thousand, the number of people with

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<v Speaker 2>that are diagnosed with cancer has nearly doubled. So it's

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<v Speaker 2>a growing issue. It's a growing health condition, and we

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<v Speaker 2>need to become more understanding and have greater awareness.

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<v Speaker 3>The other thing that's really important.

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<v Speaker 2>Luke, is to have flexible guidelines for managers and give

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<v Speaker 2>the manager the ability to adapt them to the unique

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<v Speaker 2>needs of each colleague. So it's not about you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's this way or the highway. It's sort of saying, Sue, well,

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<v Speaker 2>she's told me that her executive functioning or her brain's

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<v Speaker 2>not working as it used to, so we're probably going

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<v Speaker 2>to need some different accommodations. But for somebody else, Joe,

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<v Speaker 2>for example, he's had a chemo, but his brain's working well,

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<v Speaker 2>he tells me.

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<v Speaker 3>That he's not.

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<v Speaker 2>He's he understands his capacity, he understands his capability, so

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<v Speaker 2>we can continue to get him back into a similar role, etc.

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<v Speaker 2>The other thing that's really important is training training manager

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<v Speaker 2>and leaders how to respond with compassion, not just empathy.

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<v Speaker 2>Empathy and action. That's what compassion is, so that they're

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<v Speaker 2>trained and prepared for the person that comes in and

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<v Speaker 2>says they've got cancer. And workplaces have made some amazing

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<v Speaker 2>inroads into support for people with mental health.

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<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, she's absolutely.

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<v Speaker 2>And now I think most workplaces have really solid parental

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<v Speaker 2>supportive environments, safe work environments. But when we're talking about

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<v Speaker 2>a chronic illness, we lack the training and we lack

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<v Speaker 2>the I guess what we call reasonable adjustments inside the workplace.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think I think there's I think there's a

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<v Speaker 1>lot to that workplaces have made enormous grounds. I mean

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<v Speaker 1>I'm looking at the workplace I'm in at nine Radio

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<v Speaker 1>and compared to the cup that I worked for the

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<v Speaker 1>same organization, you know, maybe five years ago, the strides

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<v Speaker 1>made in you know, HR for example and elsewhere is remarkable.

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<v Speaker 1>Who should go to livework cancer dot Com?

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<v Speaker 2>So okay, so firstly, anyone that's trying to balance work

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<v Speaker 2>in cancer. So we provide one on one coaching to

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<v Speaker 2>help them determine what their goals are. You know, do

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<v Speaker 2>they want to go back to work? Do they want

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<v Speaker 2>to do they feel that they've got the ability to go.

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<v Speaker 3>Back to work?

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<v Speaker 2>How do they want to go back to work, what

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<v Speaker 2>are they worried about? So that coaching at one on one.

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<v Speaker 2>We've set up network groups. Now at this stage it's

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<v Speaker 2>only for women. Men tend not to like to come

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<v Speaker 2>into a support group environment. But if the men say

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<v Speaker 2>otherwise and they want to participate paid in a network group,

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<v Speaker 2>we will set one of those up again. And then

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<v Speaker 2>we go to the workplaces. And that's a combination of

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<v Speaker 2>just you know, having a one hour forty minute conversation

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<v Speaker 2>with the workplace like an all staff meeting. This is

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<v Speaker 2>what the cancer experience can look like. This is what

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<v Speaker 2>the research tells us, this is what you might be

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<v Speaker 2>able to consider and then help them with their their strategies,

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<v Speaker 2>their policies.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, if I look wagen intervene here and I know,

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<v Speaker 1>I know the station manager of this place is listening. Greg,

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<v Speaker 1>this sounds like a master, it seems to me. So

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<v Speaker 1>I have to go. But gosh, I've learned so much

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<v Speaker 1>talking with you. I wish you'd continued good health, and

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<v Speaker 1>thank you for what you're doing for people who have

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<v Speaker 1>had their battles or will have their battles. It's so very.

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<v Speaker 3>Important, so great. Thanks, Thanks for not.

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<v Speaker 1>At all or sue what all and again the website

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<v Speaker 1>is lipworkcancer dot com. Where would we be with our

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<v Speaker 1>people like zooh hashtagre saying