1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,720 S1: Nick McKenzie, who works for the nine newspapers, the most 2 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:06,400 S1: prominent of which here is The Age, broke this several 3 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:08,000 S1: weeks ago. It was a couple of months ago now. 4 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:12,319 S1: The corruption on the big bills, the allegation that at 5 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,520 S1: least $15 billion has been wasted and has probably ended 6 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:19,680 S1: up in criminal hands. Well, today, more evidence has emerged. 7 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:22,479 S1: The senior bureaucrat in charge of the big build. A 8 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:26,080 S1: few years ago, a man called Kevin Dillon apparently repeatedly 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,760 S1: warned Jacinta Allan, who was then the minister, about CFMEU 10 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:33,159 S1: corruption and lawlessness. And it would seem she did nothing 11 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:37,879 S1: about it. Investigative reporter at nine newspapers Nick McKenzie. Good morning. 12 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:39,040 S2: Good morning. 13 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:42,720 S1: So is this just more evidence that confirms what you've 14 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:46,440 S1: already confirmed, that there was plenty of warnings about all 15 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:48,479 S1: this stuff going on, and yet nothing was done. 16 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:53,440 S2: I think what this tells us is the very top 17 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,400 S2: of the public service tree. So Kevin Devlin, the public 18 00:00:56,400 --> 00:01:00,080 S2: servant involved, sits on top of the big build. He's 19 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:04,290 S2: in charge of overseeing a vast amount of the biggest projects. 20 00:01:04,930 --> 00:01:07,649 S2: And it makes utter sense that if in 2024 we 21 00:01:07,650 --> 00:01:11,050 S2: began to uncover systemic corruption and wrongdoing on the big 22 00:01:11,050 --> 00:01:13,570 S2: build that he, as the chief public servant A would 23 00:01:13,569 --> 00:01:16,209 S2: know about it and B would have told the then minister, 24 00:01:16,209 --> 00:01:19,890 S2: who's our now premier, Jacinta Allan. What the story finally 25 00:01:19,890 --> 00:01:21,810 S2: confirms is that is indeed the case. He did know 26 00:01:21,810 --> 00:01:24,810 S2: about it, and he did tell the minister at least something. 27 00:01:24,810 --> 00:01:27,610 S2: So we know what the government led on yesterday is 28 00:01:27,610 --> 00:01:29,649 S2: in a year before we started reporting in the middle 29 00:01:29,650 --> 00:01:34,690 S2: of 2023, Kevin Devlin told Jacinta Allan as minister, there 30 00:01:34,690 --> 00:01:39,770 S2: are criminal elements on these projects. That was the heart 31 00:01:39,770 --> 00:01:42,930 S2: of our big revelations, our big exposé. A year later, 32 00:01:42,930 --> 00:01:46,170 S2: so for at least a year, it looks like very 33 00:01:46,170 --> 00:01:50,250 S2: little was done to stop a significant corruption scandal as 34 00:01:50,250 --> 00:01:50,930 S2: it bubbled away. 35 00:01:50,970 --> 00:01:53,690 S1: Yeah. So I said, Kevin Dillon, I meant Kevin Devlin. 36 00:01:53,850 --> 00:01:56,810 S1: And of course, Jacinta Allan does say that she referred 37 00:01:56,810 --> 00:01:59,690 S1: some of these issues to IBAC. And yet I've spoken 38 00:01:59,690 --> 00:02:01,850 S1: to the former head of IBAC, Robert Redlich, and he 39 00:02:01,850 --> 00:02:04,370 S1: makes it clear that, well, she should have known IBAC 40 00:02:04,410 --> 00:02:07,260 S1: had no jurisdiction, and in fact, I wrote her a 41 00:02:07,260 --> 00:02:09,980 S1: letter saying they had no jurisdiction. So that doesn't really 42 00:02:09,980 --> 00:02:11,500 S1: count as doing anything, does it? 43 00:02:12,580 --> 00:02:15,820 S2: Referring allegations. It's as good as referring allegations to a corpse. 44 00:02:15,900 --> 00:02:21,020 S2: If you give you discover alleged wrongdoing and you tell 45 00:02:21,060 --> 00:02:24,419 S2: someone who can't investigate, be it IBAC or the police 46 00:02:24,419 --> 00:02:26,860 S2: back then were utterly disinterested. They're not now, but they 47 00:02:26,860 --> 00:02:30,060 S2: were back then. You tell agencies that don't do anything, 48 00:02:30,060 --> 00:02:32,500 S2: that there's a problem, then nothing will be done. And 49 00:02:32,500 --> 00:02:35,620 S2: that's all that happened. Agencies that weren't interested or couldn't 50 00:02:35,620 --> 00:02:39,380 S2: do anything, the lack of power or jurisdictional oversight or 51 00:02:39,900 --> 00:02:42,340 S2: the police at that time didn't want to get involved. 52 00:02:42,820 --> 00:02:45,380 S2: You tell them to go hunting. They're not going to 53 00:02:45,380 --> 00:02:48,180 S2: go hunting because we know they don't. So the idea 54 00:02:48,180 --> 00:02:51,100 S2: that this was appropriately referred to the right agencies and 55 00:02:51,100 --> 00:02:53,260 S2: nothing to see here, which is the explanation of the 56 00:02:53,260 --> 00:02:59,020 S2: premiere to date, simply is just too poor and not 57 00:02:59,020 --> 00:03:03,220 S2: up to what our voters should expect. Obviously, there's been 58 00:03:03,220 --> 00:03:07,980 S2: a system failure to deal with this huge scandal. We've 59 00:03:07,980 --> 00:03:11,390 S2: we've seen the Premier, actually implements some really good actions. 60 00:03:11,389 --> 00:03:13,950 S2: She's fired the Victoria Police up. A year ago. The 61 00:03:13,950 --> 00:03:16,790 S2: Victoria Police started doing a great deal of work and 62 00:03:16,790 --> 00:03:20,310 S2: they should be applauded. But that only happened because the 63 00:03:20,310 --> 00:03:22,669 S2: media exposed this and this is where there's a huge 64 00:03:22,669 --> 00:03:23,510 S2: political failure. 65 00:03:23,550 --> 00:03:25,270 S1: Well, I was going to say, you say someone's going 66 00:03:25,270 --> 00:03:27,590 S1: to go hunting after this. The Premier doesn't want to 67 00:03:27,590 --> 00:03:29,910 S1: call a royal commission, although the opposition has said if 68 00:03:29,910 --> 00:03:31,950 S1: they're elected, they will. But let's just say the Premier 69 00:03:31,950 --> 00:03:35,390 S1: remains the Premier, which he might. So no royal commission, 70 00:03:35,830 --> 00:03:39,670 S1: no expansion of Ibac's powers because they say they need 71 00:03:39,670 --> 00:03:41,470 S1: them and they're not going to get them, it would seem. 72 00:03:41,630 --> 00:03:43,950 S1: So can can Victoria police? Are they up to the 73 00:03:43,950 --> 00:03:45,990 S1: task of investigating something like this? 74 00:03:46,790 --> 00:03:50,350 S2: I mean, the police are doing a great job, but 75 00:03:50,670 --> 00:03:53,470 S2: absolutely they are not up to the task. And why 76 00:03:53,590 --> 00:03:57,190 S2: the police can only investigate breaches of the criminal law. 77 00:03:57,390 --> 00:04:00,030 S2: And that's hard enough when it comes to organised crime. 78 00:04:00,350 --> 00:04:02,430 S2: You've got to get witnesses. We know there's a culture 79 00:04:02,430 --> 00:04:05,030 S2: of fear in the building industry. You've got to get 80 00:04:05,030 --> 00:04:07,110 S2: witnesses signed up. You've got to find the evidence, you've 81 00:04:07,110 --> 00:04:10,430 S2: got to get it before the magistrates court, the county court. Now, 82 00:04:10,430 --> 00:04:12,170 S2: the police are doing a great job there, but that's 83 00:04:12,170 --> 00:04:15,730 S2: extremely limited. What we're talking about more broadly on the 84 00:04:15,730 --> 00:04:19,890 S2: big build is a huge amount of not just criminal dealing, 85 00:04:19,890 --> 00:04:23,609 S2: but corrupt dealing wrongdoing. It may not actually involve breaches 86 00:04:23,610 --> 00:04:25,530 S2: of the criminal law. It could be civil breaches of 87 00:04:25,529 --> 00:04:29,770 S2: the law. It may just involve nepotism, just blatant wrongdoing. 88 00:04:29,770 --> 00:04:32,010 S2: Where you've got a bikie cousin you give a job to, 89 00:04:32,050 --> 00:04:34,729 S2: not criminal, but certainly dodgy. None of that stuff the 90 00:04:34,730 --> 00:04:37,770 S2: police can investigate. And when we're talking about this corruption 91 00:04:37,770 --> 00:04:41,690 S2: scandal that 65, 70, 80% of it is this sort 92 00:04:41,690 --> 00:04:46,490 S2: of nebulous wrongdoing, corruption, which does not fall into the 93 00:04:46,490 --> 00:04:48,930 S2: police brief. So the police, while they're doing a great job, 94 00:04:48,930 --> 00:04:51,970 S2: finally now, can't investigate much of this stuff. 95 00:04:52,010 --> 00:04:54,729 S1: Yeah. And look at the comparison with illegal tobacco. Now 96 00:04:54,730 --> 00:04:57,130 S1: that's slightly different. But that is another activity which is 97 00:04:57,130 --> 00:04:59,850 S1: funneling hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars nationwide 98 00:04:59,850 --> 00:05:03,090 S1: into criminal organizations. But it's out of the pockets of 99 00:05:03,089 --> 00:05:07,090 S1: smokers into the hands of criminals. Border force, the police, 100 00:05:07,450 --> 00:05:09,610 S1: you know, sort of have the powers to do something there. 101 00:05:09,610 --> 00:05:12,610 S1: But but it's somewhat ineffectual. So if we can't do that, 102 00:05:12,610 --> 00:05:14,650 S1: which is a breach of the criminal law, what hope 103 00:05:14,740 --> 00:05:15,739 S1: do we have with this? 104 00:05:16,860 --> 00:05:19,180 S2: And the difference between the two. And I think it's 105 00:05:19,180 --> 00:05:23,340 S2: a good comparison. The law enforcement response generally to the 106 00:05:23,380 --> 00:05:26,820 S2: tobacco problem has been pretty, pretty pathetic. Again, detectives and 107 00:05:26,820 --> 00:05:28,940 S2: Victoria Police are doing a great job there. A small 108 00:05:28,940 --> 00:05:31,900 S2: piece of the puzzle, the regulatory government failure, both state 109 00:05:31,900 --> 00:05:34,700 S2: wise and on the Commonwealth level, is utterly staggering. It's 110 00:05:34,700 --> 00:05:39,219 S2: a policy problem that was entirely foreseeable. But the big 111 00:05:39,220 --> 00:05:44,180 S2: difference here is when it comes to building industry. CFMEU 112 00:05:44,220 --> 00:05:47,900 S2: links corruption, big bill link corruption. It's highly political. There 113 00:05:47,900 --> 00:05:52,020 S2: is even more reason for this labor government not to act, 114 00:05:52,020 --> 00:05:54,100 S2: because if you follow that money trail and ask the 115 00:05:54,100 --> 00:05:57,500 S2: right questions, you're going to find you will find politicians 116 00:05:57,500 --> 00:06:01,020 S2: who didn't do enough to combat corruption on their watch. 117 00:06:01,060 --> 00:06:03,339 S1: Is it being is it being fixed now? Like we've 118 00:06:03,339 --> 00:06:07,300 S1: got administrators, both federal and state, running the CFMEU? Has 119 00:06:07,300 --> 00:06:08,700 S1: anything changed in your view? 120 00:06:10,660 --> 00:06:13,300 S2: Things have improved, yes, but not enough. And I think 121 00:06:13,300 --> 00:06:16,980 S2: this is the critical part of today's story. Just last year, 122 00:06:17,220 --> 00:06:19,950 S2: a aboard that Kevin Devlin. He's the top public servant 123 00:06:19,950 --> 00:06:23,430 S2: overseeing the big build. And I think from reputation, he's 124 00:06:23,430 --> 00:06:25,990 S2: a terrific operator who operates without fear or favour. So 125 00:06:25,990 --> 00:06:28,909 S2: behind the scenes, he's been agitating as recently as last year. 126 00:06:29,310 --> 00:06:31,830 S2: He was saying not enough is being done. There's got 127 00:06:31,830 --> 00:06:34,030 S2: to be more changes. How do we know this? He 128 00:06:34,029 --> 00:06:36,790 S2: sat on the board. We were leaked a board paper, um, 129 00:06:36,830 --> 00:06:41,670 S2: where that very message was being made really stridently and 130 00:06:41,670 --> 00:06:45,070 S2: really urgently. So there has been reform. The government has 131 00:06:45,070 --> 00:06:47,710 S2: done some things. The police are doing more. The administrator 132 00:06:47,710 --> 00:06:50,469 S2: of the CFMEU has taken action, but not enough has 133 00:06:50,470 --> 00:06:53,830 S2: been done and too much corruption remains still hidden under rocks. 134 00:06:54,070 --> 00:06:56,270 S1: Well, we've still yet to finish the North East link, 135 00:06:56,270 --> 00:06:58,630 S1: and it looks like work on the suburban rail loop 136 00:06:58,630 --> 00:07:00,670 S1: is really going to start in earnest. Can we expect 137 00:07:00,670 --> 00:07:03,229 S1: that more billions of dollars will be wasted and possibly 138 00:07:03,230 --> 00:07:05,830 S1: to the, you know, the pockets of criminals on these projects? 139 00:07:06,470 --> 00:07:08,390 S2: I don't want to get sued or get you sued 140 00:07:08,390 --> 00:07:11,470 S2: for defamation, but I can I could name to you 141 00:07:11,510 --> 00:07:15,310 S2: organized crime figures and bikies on these projects. Right now. 142 00:07:15,350 --> 00:07:17,630 S2: They are still there. Some of them are infamous entities 143 00:07:17,630 --> 00:07:20,720 S2: that have been recently aired in public reports up in 144 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:24,000 S2: the Queensland Commission of Inquiry into the CFMEU. They're still 145 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:28,440 S2: making money from your listeners, taxpayers. These are bikies, organised 146 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:32,280 S2: crime entities. The the rot isn't as bad as it 147 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:34,480 S2: was when we exposed it first two years ago, but 148 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:36,120 S2: it's still there and it's still bad. 149 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,200 S1: So from your perspective and what you do, uncovering this stuff, 150 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,040 S1: can we assume there is still more to come? 151 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,920 S2: I wish I could say there wasn't, I just don't 152 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:46,840 S2: want to write another big build story again. I've done 153 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,840 S2: too many, but unfortunately we'll be writing them. I imagine 154 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:51,600 S2: all the way to the election because the problem is 155 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,640 S2: still there where there's evidence. We'll dig it up and 156 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,440 S2: we'll expose it in the paper. And for your listeners. 157 00:07:57,480 --> 00:07:59,200 S1: Look, thank you for your time. I appreciate it. Nick 158 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,440 S1: McKenzie there, investigative reporter at nine Newspapers. And he does 159 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:04,400 S1: a great job. Like he does the sorts of things 160 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:06,920 S1: that we would struggle to do because, you know, I've 161 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:10,040 S1: got to do live radio 3.5 hours a day, prepare 162 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:12,000 S1: a show is another 3 or 4 hours like it 163 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,960 S1: just there isn't much time left in the day to 164 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,400 S1: go and do deep dives into things like this. And 165 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:19,640 S1: he does it, and that's great. Well, it's not great. 166 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:21,960 S1: It's happening, but at least we're starting to know about it. 167 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:23,440 S1: Nick McKenzie there.