S1: All right, let's fucking go. As they say in the business.
S1: Hey there. I'm Osman Farooqui and this is The Drop,
S1: a culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age,
S1: where we dive into the latest in the world of
S1: pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Thomas Mitchell and
S1: Mel Cambrai, of course, Tim, We did it. We've seen
S1: both Bobby and Oppenheimer and we've lived to tell the tale.
S1: How are we feeling?
S2: Yeah, good. I can't remember a time when I wasn't
S2: in a cinema, but it's. It feels good to be out.
S2: The other side feels kind of like the end of
S2: succession all over again. Like I'm exhausted and sad it's over,
S2: but I'll probably miss it.
S3: I think I want to go to another movie tonight.
S3: Like I want to keep this going. How fun going
S3: to a movie. I'm not going.
S2: To another movie with you this week.
S3: So Thomas and I, we actually realized that yesterday was
S3: our when we saw when we saw Oppenheimer. So good start.
S3: Good start, guys. Yesterday when we saw Oppenheimer was the
S3: first time we had actually seen a movie together. However.
S3: How do you find it?
S2: Yeah, it was our first date.
S3: Well, Thomas didn't save me a seat for Barbie, which
S3: was a bit disappointing. But how did you find me
S3: as a movie companion?
S4: Uh.
S2: Very chatty. And that.
S3: Also Chatty Cathy.
S1: And chatty. Chatty during the film or just before.
S2: During the film. And also, by the time you drain
S2: that second, what then you were very chatty. And Mel's
S2: doing we'll get into this. Obviously, Mel's doing lots of
S2: explaining things to me as she does on the pod.
S1: Also, I had a really funny sort of experience because
S1: a lot of the people who saw the Barbie premiere
S1: on Monday were also at the Oppenheimer premiere, but in
S1: like completely different outfits or just looking way more like
S1: less glam and like just a bit depressed. And it
S1: was just so funny seeing the exact same crew of
S1: like Melbourne cinema media types trudged from one thing to another.
S1: It was, it was quite an experience.
S3: Yeah. The Barbie premiere in Sydney was so over the top.
S3: There was pink carpet, there were like Barbie boxes, there
S3: were cars to pose with. There was fairy floss everywhere.
S3: And then the Oppenheimer premiere, you just kind of the
S3: one bit of special effects was you walked through this tunnel,
S3: which I believe was meant to emulate being inside an
S3: atomic bomb.
S2: The only thing that I thought was because they gave
S2: out arancini, which is kind of like.
S1: A you guys got air and we didn't get any food.
S1: We didn't got none of that stuff.
S2: It was probably the yummiest atomic bomb I've ever eaten.
S3: No, but Thomas was like kind of off faffing around
S3: and because he was running quite late and we were
S3: last in the cinema, we were so far we were
S3: in the very back row. We could not have been
S3: further away from the screen.
S2: Good for a Nolan film though, because you kind of
S2: want to take it all in.
S3: Yeah, that's true.
S1: Did people dress up at your screening? There were a
S1: lot of like Peaky Blinders kind of guys at the
S1: one in Melbourne?
S2: No, nothing. It was so funny though, because I thought
S2: the same thing. Like obviously the Barbie premiere was is
S2: like sea of colour, mostly pink. And then Oppenheimer, it
S2: was just like blacks or browns or greys or so
S2: so grim.
S1: How do you guys feel about the order We were
S1: forced to watch these movies and because of the way
S1: the premieres were structured. Thomas And you spoke to your guy,
S1: Tom Cruise. You know, he had, I think, what was
S1: largely seen as the sensible take, right? Like watched the big,
S1: heavy three hour epic film. Oppenheimer And then as a
S1: palate cleanser, watch. Bobby I think maybe we can talk
S1: about it more when we get into the films, but
S1: my instinct is actually doing Bobby first kind of worked
S1: because Oppenheimer is such a big, heavy thematic film. You
S1: kind of want to sit with it for a minute
S1: before going into something so completely kind of saccharine.
S2: Yeah, I think we did it the right way. I
S2: think seeing Bobby first is definitely better, and the only
S2: thing I would change is that we saw Oppenheimer like
S2: in the evening. I if I like my perfect day,
S2: like get up, have breakfast, go and get a coffee
S2: and then see Oppenheimer at like 11 and then like
S2: with some smart friends, not you guys. And then go,
S2: go out for lunch after and like debrief or go
S2: out for dinner because it goes for fucking eight hours
S2: and then like debrief on it then because seeing it
S2: after work I felt a bit like.
S1: Yeah, you finishes at 930 and you're like, I want
S1: to go to bed now. And I actually had a
S1: really bad night's sleep last night and I think it
S1: was because I just couldn't turn off the movie in
S1: my head.
S3: I agree. Thomas There was like, it actually caused me
S3: a bit of anxiety because I knew you were quite
S3: tired and you'd had quite a big day. And so
S3: during the film I kept worrying that you were asleep
S3: next to me. Like I was doing that thing where
S3: I was checking, Are you still with us?
S2: So watch the head nod. I was there. I was
S2: there for all three hours and nine minutes. But I actually.
S3: Think it's really interesting to have because we wouldn't usually
S3: talk about Greta Gerwig and Christopher Nolan film other than
S3: obviously they've both come out in the same day and
S3: the two biggest films of the year. But I think
S3: it's really interesting to think about them together. And I
S3: keep thinking about how where Nolan is weak, Greta Gerwig
S3: was strong and vice versa and like holding them together.
S3: I think on the surface they seem really different, but
S3: then they do share some. Similarities as well, that interest
S3: in kind of how stories are told and made? Well,
S3: let me.
S1: Tell you, one of them is a great exploration of
S1: gender dynamics in the 1950s, and it's not Barbie.
S2: Okay. Firstly, I think we should just get into it
S2: and start with the better film. Let's talk.
S1: Barbie. Okay. Yeah, let's do let's actually talk. So what
S1: we're going to do is we're going to talk about
S1: both Barbie and Oppenheimer. Obviously, we're going to have pretty
S1: spoiler free conversations for both. So if you haven't yet
S1: seen the movies, you can still listen and get our
S1: review and outtakes, but we will have a little spoiler
S1: section for each that we will signpost. So you've still
S1: got time to watch the movies, not have anything ruined.
S1: Let's start with Barbie. Initial Thoughts the most hyped film
S1: in years. How did you guys find it?
S3: I loved it. I had a great time. I thought
S3: it was funny. It was pretty. It was clever. I
S3: do think it lived up to the hype in many ways,
S3: but in some ways I also think that was its
S3: downfall because I think that Gerwig was trying to cater
S3: to so many people in this film that it did
S3: become a bit bland and it did become a bit
S3: kind of I didn't have quite the spark that I
S3: thought it would have, and it did become a bit
S3: overly commercial. I thought, like when they were advertising this film,
S3: they were saying, it's for people who love Barbie and
S3: it's for people who don't love Barbie. And maybe by
S3: trying to please everyone, it fell a bit short for me,
S3: which I'm sure we'll get into later on. But no,
S3: I had a really great time and I think it
S3: was I would recommend everyone go and say it.
S2: Yeah, me too. I thought it was really funny, much
S2: funnier than I thought it was going to be. And
S2: like I had like maybe 5 or 6 solid lol moments.
S2: And I guess like Greta Gerwig, Noah Baumbach together, like
S2: they're very talented writing team, but I didn't expect it
S2: to be that funny or I actually thought they were
S2: quite brave in the way they took on Mattel. I
S2: kind of was impressed that Mattel let a bit of
S2: stuff go, but then I do feel like the last
S2: half hour it lost its way and the messaging got
S2: very mixed up. And yes, similar to Gmail, I think
S2: there was a bit of trying to please everyone and
S2: trying to tick every box and not be accused of
S2: not doing something or getting it like it was just
S2: there was just a lot going on and you could
S2: feel it rammed in at the end. And also, it's
S2: kind of weird when you watch a movie and then
S2: you come and do something like this and your experience
S2: with it changes like as time goes on. But my
S2: very initial thoughts, when the credits rolled, I was like, Fuck,
S2: that was amazing. Like, that was like the first five
S2: people I spoke to about the movie. I was like, amazing, amazing.
S2: So funny, so great. And then the more I sat
S2: with it, I was like, Oh, but then this, which
S2: I guess is the nature of, you know, thinking about things.
S1: That's really interesting because I had exactly the same experience
S1: sitting there in the movies and the lights went on.
S1: I was like, Wow, Like, incredible stuff. What a time
S1: to be alive, really. And then the further away I
S1: got from the cinema, the more kind of cynical I got.
S1: And then the day after, I, I ended up with
S1: what is my current take, which is that I think
S1: for what this movie is trying to do, which is
S1: basically take a toy that has been around for so
S1: long and make a story out of it that is
S1: fun and compelling and kind of for all ages. But,
S1: you know, with a couple of gags for the adults
S1: and some fun sequences for younger people, it's as good
S1: as it could be. Like, I just don't think there's
S1: a version of the Barbie film that is better than
S1: this one. Yeah. Given all the constraints and boundaries and
S1: challenges around grappling with big corporate IP and doing it
S1: in the kind of modern Hollywood ecosystem, like I think
S1: it's fun. I think everyone should see it. I actually
S1: do think people should see this movie because I don't
S1: think it's like some criticisms I've got of it that
S1: I'll get into are not enough to turn you off
S1: the movie. Like at the end of the day, it's
S1: an hour and 54 minutes. The performances are great. Like
S1: you said, Thomas is really funny. Ryan Gosling in a
S1: Revelation because we know he's a great actor, but his
S1: role in this film and the extent to which he's
S1: a big part of it, I think they've done a
S1: good job of keeping that a bit under wraps. He
S1: wasn't really front and center in a lot of the marketing,
S1: but he's really, really good in it. A lot of
S1: the cast are great in it. The production design is
S1: amazing and the soundtrack, which had sort of been dripped
S1: out over the last couple of weeks, really plays a
S1: big role in the movie as well, which I really, really,
S1: really enjoyed.
UU: Lately I've been moving closer.
S1: Before maybe we get to some of the things that
S1: didn't quite work. What else did work for you guys
S1: in this film?
S2: Yeah, I think I was surprised by Gosling as well,
S2: and I thought he was very. He was very funny.
S2: This is my take on the film. No, but he
S2: was like, really, really funny. He's there was some conjecture
S2: about him being cast as Ken when he first announced
S2: because they were like people like, Oh, he's too old
S2: and stuff. But he was like the perfect Ken doll.
S2: And like I thought also thought generally the movie was
S2: more self-aware than I expected. And it kind of like
S2: there were lots of kind of like winks to the
S2: audience about how ridiculous this all is or when when
S2: there was a moment we were supposed to think, you know,
S2: it was a bit outrageous. The movie made us but
S2: brought us in and was like, Yeah, we know. And
S2: I also thought similar. I thought like, I love a
S2: big set piece in a film. And the set pieces
S2: in this were amazing. Like, you know, there's a big
S2: Ken sequence at the end that was incredible. The songs
S2: were great. Like it was, yeah, it kind of had
S2: that full like movie experience where it was just like
S2: rich with everything.
S3: Yeah, I loved Bobby Land. I just wanted to stay
S3: in Bobby Land. I wanted to understand how that matriarchy worked.
S3: I thought, like the look of that, the rules of
S3: that world was so interesting. They were by far my
S3: favorite part. I liked the cameo Barbies, like loved Issa Rae.
S3: I thought she was great. That was the kind of
S3: where I thought the movie was at its best when
S3: it was in Barbie's dream house and explaining that world. Um,
S3: I also really, I thought there were quite a few
S3: fun little and I wonder if you guys I don't
S3: know if you played with Barbies growing up. There were
S3: quite a few fun little throwbacks to actual Barbie dolls
S3: like Tanner. I don't know if you know Barbie's dog,
S3: which like was just this toy that I think.
S1: It's safe to assume. Mal, we don't know much about
S1: these dolls.
S2: I was more of a Susan stretch. I mean.
S3: I didn't want to. She was. Their name was Suzy. No.
S3: No one.
S2: Bought her that massive discontinued Susan.
S3: When she was in trouble. Yeah, there were heaps of, like,
S3: old Midge who was like, Barbies. Oh, the pregnant one. Yeah.
S3: So I thought there were quite a few fun little
S3: throwbacks to Barbies for fans of Barbies. But yeah, I
S3: also think there were a lot of weak points and
S3: it was kind of to me there were like these
S3: really great moments, like the Ken scene that you guys
S3: have mentioned or kind of the initial establishment of Barbie
S3: Barbie's dream world. But then there was some pretty poor
S3: moments as well.
S1: Yeah, I think in terms of what didn't quite land,
S1: I'm really interested to have this conversation with you guys
S1: because to me there's a couple of different layers to it.
S1: There is some specific plot point and some character stuff,
S1: but then I think there is a big top order,
S1: almost kind of political issue that is present throughout the
S1: film that just didn't quite work for me. But maybe
S1: we can talk about some of the more middle of
S1: the road issues here. The film's plot, if people haven't
S1: kind of like kept up without giving too much away,
S1: Barbie lives in this amazing dreamland. She's having a great time.
S1: Then things start to go a bit wrong for her.
S1: This is all kind of in the trailers.
S5: It's breaks. Some things have been happening that might be
S5: related When.
S6: My world shakes.
S7: Cold shower.
S5: Falling off my roof and my heels are on the ground.
S8: Flat feet.
S1: Her famously arched feet go flat. She starts to have
S1: these kind of grim, depressing thoughts and she finds out
S1: that she has to go into the real world, our world,
S1: to figure out what's going on when she goes there.
S1: The plot kind of revolves around this character played by
S1: America Ferrera and her daughter, who link up with Bobby
S1: to try and fix things. I don't dislike that as
S1: a plot device. I think that's kind of interesting. But
S1: I just didn't think those two characters, Ferrera and her daughter,
S1: were at all like developed or fleshed out, and I
S1: kind of didn't like much that happened in the real world.
S1: The dream world stuff is interesting. That's where all the
S1: interesting characters are and that's where the interesting ideas are.
S1: Let's just get back to that. And I couldn't quite
S1: like even the real world. It wasn't really the real world.
S1: Like Will Ferrell is the CEO of Mattel, but everything
S1: is still kind of heightened and a bit wacky. And
S1: it's like they weren't sure if they really wanted to
S1: display a real version of our lives or another kind
S1: of fake version. And I've just got a little bit
S1: too messy for me. How did you guys feel about
S1: that sort of tension?
S3: Yeah, I completely agree with you, and I think that
S3: was part of the challenge that Greta Gerwig probably faced,
S3: was that Barbie is a toy that doesn't have a
S3: back story. Like she doesn't come with a back story
S3: that Greta Gerwig can can use. So yeah, so she
S3: had to make a narrative and I just hated the
S3: plot of this. It annoyed me. And like, I know
S3: they you need a plot. I'm very old fashioned. I
S3: know you need a plot, but it just felt so
S3: silly and childish to me. And it was the point
S3: of the plot like this. Some fissure in the world
S3: that they can get through and then they have to
S3: get back. I just didn't want any of that. And
S3: it made it feel like a childish film to me.
S3: Whereas I think and that really annoyed me because I
S3: thought it was an adult film. But then there were
S3: elements of it to me that felt like it was
S3: for a child, and the narrative was one that, yeah,
S3: you'd show your eight year old daughter great for them.
S3: But yeah, I didn't want the real world idea. I
S3: didn't like it. And I think that's also partly why
S3: I liked the, the Barbie Land stuff so much was
S3: because it was away from that part of it.
S2: Yeah, I agree as well that like, it did feel
S2: like two different movies. When I went to the Rent
S2: Into the Real World, it became this kind of like
S2: weird 90s like high jinks movie or something. And you've
S2: got like Barbie running around always being like the Benny
S2: Hill music or something. And like, it was just a
S2: bit yeah, that tonally felt very different. And Barbie was
S2: way more like Greta, and that was like, you know,
S2: the cool kind of like arthouse take on Barbie. And
S2: then it just became this weird, like really very broad
S2: strokes film. So that didn't really work for me. And
S2: I and I felt similar, like America Ferrera, a great actress.
S2: We all know that. And like everyone else in Barbie,
S2: even these like Kens and Barbies that we meet very
S2: briefly felt like fully realized. Whereas America Ferrera and her
S2: daughter were getting these kind of like, really like you
S2: get these like, lame flashbacks to them. And it just
S2: all felt like very, I don't know, cumbersome or something.
S2: So that I found a little bit yeah, a little
S2: bit disappointing. And then I guess we'll probably get into this.
S2: But like it became towards the end, like just the
S2: mixed messaging and what the film was trying to say.
S2: It was like just deluge of information and yeah, that
S2: the last half hour really lost me.
S1: Well, I want to ask you guys specifically that question
S1: around what the film is trying to say, because I
S1: think this is one of the most fascinating things about
S1: this movie is how was it going to balance essentially
S1: being a giant marketing campaign for Mattel with this vision
S1: that we thought and hope that Greta Gerwig and Margot
S1: Robbie to pretty interesting women in film two, probably of
S1: the most interesting women in film working right now with
S1: a lot of experience telling specific stories about women when
S1: it comes to Greta Gerwig, mother and daughter relationships particularly.
S1: And you know, Margot, Robbie's been involved in producing a
S1: bunch of very capital F feminist films like Promising Young Women,
S1: how these two ideas were going to merge. I think
S1: the kind of the Greta Gerwig, you know, mummy issues
S1: thing that she does with things like Lady Bird and
S1: Frances Ha is sort of quite present. There's a lot
S1: of conversation about mothers and daughters at all sorts of
S1: different levels. We talked about how we don't think that
S1: really landed for us with the America Ferrera and her
S1: daughter storyline. In terms of the movie's overall take on
S1: gender politics and on feminism and on how the patriarchy operates.
S1: My personal take on it, I'm going to be very
S1: like measured about how I say this because I'm conscious
S1: of being the guy. Yeah, I just didn't like the
S1: feminism in the movie.
S3: But yeah, we've already got that guy, the Pod.
S1: But I don't think it worked in the movie. And
S1: I don't mean that like it's because the movie addressed
S1: feminism is obviously not my point. I just found it
S1: to be like a little bit either ham fisted at
S1: points or too eager and quick to just like tick
S1: off everything. It's like we've got we've got a black
S1: Barbie and a Supreme Court is diverse and we've got
S1: a trans Barbie, but we're not really going to delve
S1: into how those intersections actually relate in this kind of
S1: world at all. And we're going to show you that
S1: there's a corporate boardroom full of men, and that's bad.
S1: And it's like, okay. Is this saying anything new about
S1: the what is it taking this idea of Barbie and
S1: telling us something we don't know? Or is it too,
S1: I guess, conscious of the criticism around Barbie that it
S1: is defensive before it's able to actually say what it
S1: wants to say and thereby kind of trapped by the
S1: desire to just sort of like, you know, avoid being
S1: criticized a critic for this movie. And when Crawford put
S1: it in way better words than I could when I
S1: watched this movie, she just she said, I think really
S1: articulately that the movie's too keen to just, like, defend
S1: itself from any criticisms. So it doesn't actually say anything
S1: that radical would take too big a swing. I really
S1: connected with her description of the movie in that way,
S1: but I'm really interested to know what you guys have
S1: to say about the kind of politics and feminism of
S1: the film.
S3: Yeah. I mean, I would love to see the director's
S3: cut of this film because I reckon Mattel probably put
S3: Greta Gerwig in her box back in her Barbie box
S3: a bit. Right. Phrasing. To me, it was very confusing
S3: and it felt like every time Greta made a punch,
S3: she then had to pull it back and I wasn't
S3: really sure where we ended up because there were then
S3: these kind of, you know, I wasn't really sure what
S3: we ended up and what to take away from it.
S3: And I think that maybe that was kind of flagged
S3: or we could have seen that coming because of all
S3: the discussion about is it a feminist film or is
S3: it not? And the Mattel Mattel executives saying it's a
S3: humanist film and Greta and Margot saying it's a feminist film.
S3: And yeah, at the end, I didn't really know what
S3: it was, but it definitely didn't have you. Speaking of
S3: promising young woman, that was like, you know, that really
S3: made it that said something. And I don't think this
S3: film really knew what it wanted to say. And it
S3: kind of ended up a watered down, uplifting film without
S3: any kind of real hit.
S1: Yeah, if a film is inherently feminist because it has
S1: lots of women in it and says the word feminism
S1: a lot, I feel like that's a pretty low bar
S1: and I feel like it just sort of fell over
S1: that low bar without having to confront too many like,
S1: powerful people with ideas about how things actually work. But.
S1: Thomas You know, whenever I'm thinking about feminism, I think
S1: about you. What what did you make of this question?
S3: And you already know your favorite wave of feminism? Yeah.
S2: Third, famously the dopest wave. Yeah, like I do feel
S2: similar essentially. Like I felt like they were really quick
S2: to get on the front foot with everything that you
S2: could have possibly accuse them of not addressing. And as
S2: soon as I kind of felt that happening, I was like, okay,
S2: I suspect you know that what you said is right.
S2: Male Like they've basically been so conscious that people are
S2: expecting things from this film and expecting things from the
S2: people connected to this film. But then like we already heard,
S2: you know, like pre premiere rumors that Mattel had kind
S2: of really been actively involved in the direction and tone
S2: of the film. And all of that, I think, became
S2: quite obvious as the film played out. Like, you know,
S2: when there's that and obviously no spoilers, but there's a
S2: scene when we first kind of see Barbie and America
S2: Ferrera's daughter meet at school and it's kind of meant
S2: to be this this big moment. And they have an
S2: ideological argument, you know, where Barbie thinks she's going to be,
S2: you know, like she thinks she's saved the real world
S2: and she thinks she's going to be greeted with hugs
S2: and open arms and stuff. And the daughter kind of
S2: lays out, you know, this speech, which feels a bit
S2: like feminism 101. And then that kind of happens again
S2: and again in the film. But then like later on,
S2: we get this like reversal when Ryan Gosling's can, you know,
S2: kind of has his big moment. And that's when I
S2: was like, Oh, this is the humanist thing they're talking
S2: about where we're trying to are we being forced now
S2: to appreciate both sides? And is this kind of the
S2: actual message of the film that if we try and
S2: always talk over one another and eliminate one another and,
S2: you know, we end up in this kind of like
S2: eye for an eye thing, and then but then it
S2: flips way back in the last half hour to become
S2: this like staunchly there's these huge speeches made by America Ferrera. So, yeah,
S2: it just it felt like it was just like someone
S2: had written themselves into a corner and we were constantly going, like,
S2: in a loop.
S3: Yeah. And then there was so much of those kind
S3: of big speeches that felt like they were that were
S3: trying to make such an obvious point. And like, at
S3: times I was like, Oh, this is maybe what I
S3: would put on to, you know, this is gender and
S3: culture studies 101 like, let's explain the patriarchy in the
S3: most obvious clear way. And I felt like those speeches
S3: and those moments where they really rammed down your throat,
S3: this kind of moralism behind it were very annoying. Yeah.
S1: And I guess I don't I hope that's not Greta. Like,
S1: I would like to think that her analysis of the
S1: modern state of gender is more complicated than men are
S1: in charge of many things and that is bad. But
S1: then on the other hand, I guess I was thinking
S1: there's a lot of conversations in this movie about like
S1: the Supreme Court comes up like a lot of times.
S1: And I was thinking about the context in which this
S1: film is being made in America, where the Supreme Court
S1: has very recently, like outlawed abortion like that is on
S1: one hand, it's maybe it's a bit cringe to people
S1: like us who went to university and like studied gender
S1: theory to to see this being presented. But maybe like
S1: a mass appeal movie that will be watched by many
S1: people telling them that, hey, the world is kind of bad.
S1: A lot of men are deciding how women's lives are
S1: a government controlled. When we live in a world where
S1: abortion is now illegal, is there maybe like maybe that's needed,
S1: even if it's not exactly the nuance and complexity we
S1: want or we think Greta and Margo can deliver probably is,
S1: in net terms, still helpful? Maybe. Maybe I'm clutching at
S1: straws here.
S3: No, I completely agree with you. Even like when there
S3: was a scene when Margot's Barbie goes into the real
S3: world and she encounters men at a construction. Sign she's
S3: in when she's rollerblading and she kind of says something like, Oh,
S3: what is this strange anxiety I'm feeling? I feel a
S3: sense of fear that I can't really define, which I
S3: think is a very real feeling that women have in.
S2: Whereas in the world. Right. This is amazing.
S3: And like, yeah, she spells it out. So obviously. But
S3: to many people, many people still don't understand how that
S3: men and women navigate the world differently. And so I
S3: do think you're right, even if to us it's kind
S3: of obvious to people who maybe haven't thought about these
S3: concepts before. This is a really good way of pop culture,
S3: introducing that to someone.
S2: Yeah. And I think like, you know, obviously we're all
S2: in agreement that the issues being like kind of discussed
S2: are great. But I guess my fear is that like
S2: if you think about people who, you know, maybe at
S2: that stage where they're like all of these conversations just
S2: trigger them. The amount of times you hear the words
S2: like feminism and patriarchy, they'll just like they won't even
S2: it'll just switch them off before they even get a
S2: chance to think about what the movie is trying to say.
S2: And I guess that is the concern I have is
S2: that if it had been slightly more subtle, if it
S2: had been more nuanced, then you might be able to
S2: get through to these people. Whereas I can imagine some
S2: people that I know who are like in that, oh, like, oh,
S2: you know, it's all become too woke, blah blah blah.
S2: They'll just like hear this or see like ten minutes
S2: this and be like, Oh no, this is just another like,
S2: you know, yeah, there.
S1: Is going to be, there's going to be such discourse
S1: about this movie. It's already been a cultural issue, like
S1: Piers Morgan and others in the UK have already been
S1: like slamming this movie for the erasure of men, blah, blah, blah.
S1: Like there will be a lot of talk about how
S1: this is like corporate woke culture gone too far. Exactly.
S1: And again, maybe in that context, its existence is like
S1: a bit of a screw you to the kind of
S1: growing emboldened far right. I want to get into spoiler
S1: territory for a second because there's a couple of other
S1: ideas about the politics of it that I think we
S1: need to discuss. You guys happy to to get into that.
S3: Space, boil.
S2: Away? I love to spoil things.
S1: So one of the most radical ideas I think that
S1: existed in this movie is this idea of like death
S1: and the killing of Bobby and that sort of like
S1: present from the very start. And then the very end,
S1: like the end of the movie, whether Mattel knew what
S1: they were signing up for or whether they even know
S1: what this movie ended on, I'm not totally sure because
S1: it's quite intense where the entire Barbie world ameliorates what
S1: the concept of Barbie is. Barbie Leaves the Dreamland has
S1: a very explicit conversation about that decision leading to her death.
S1: And she does it. And I think I found that
S1: quite satisfying in a way that, like, if Greta Gerwig
S1: was able to basically shoehorn the death of Barbie, the
S1: death of the concept of Barbie, even the version of
S1: Barbie that exists now in 2023, that is woke and
S1: diverse and whatever, I found that to be a pretty
S1: exciting idea. How did you guys feel about the very
S1: end of the film?
S2: I really liked it. I feel like that to me
S2: was like a big. Like, I can just imagine the
S2: conversation between or like email thread between Greta Gerwig and
S2: the CEOs at Mattel being like, okay, oh, like budge
S2: on this, this and this, but I'm keeping the ending.
S2: And maybe like I would bet my life that's how
S2: it went down and maybe, you know, she was smart
S2: to do that and maybe Mattel were too because like
S2: what's Mattel? Give a fuck if Barbie dies at the end.
S2: Like Barbies.
S1: Everyone still loves Bobby. There's still a million brand.
S2: That no one's going to be like, Oh, but the character,
S2: like Margot Robbie, like walked off into the know, like
S2: they don't care. Like Barbie is back as like a
S2: brand we're talking about. Or people are going to be
S2: buying Barbies. But I thought it was a really smart ending.
S2: Like once we got to the actual ending of the film,
S2: I was like, Yeah, I really enjoy this.
S3: Yeah. And I don't want to. I think the idea
S3: that Mattel is brave or is insane to me, like
S3: people are saying like, Oh, that executives scene can't believe Mattel.
S3: Let us take potshots at them. Like that is.
S2: Just sad that you offer. Is that my voice?
S3: That's how in my head, how it sounds. I just
S3: think it is insane. Even the ending just feeds into
S3: a narrative. Mattel is trying to sell, which is Barbie
S3: for a new generation. They have to kill off a
S3: particular version of Barbie, which is the version that Barbie
S3: is perfect and wonderful and physically aspirational. They have to
S3: kill off that person to stay relevant. So to me,
S3: this ending is exactly what Mattel wants. They want to
S3: reposition Barbie as something that all of us can get behind.
S3: And I think they did that so well. Like the
S3: idea that Barbie is an inspiration, like psychologically and emotionally
S3: rather than physically is just genius, I think, on their behalf.
S1: Yeah, it's a it's a really good point. And I
S1: think there's another bit to the ending that that speaks
S1: to it. Like we have Mattel in the movie, largely
S1: represented by Will Ferrell and these kind of like, you know,
S1: nameless suits, corporate goons, then culprit goons. But then at
S1: the very end, we meet this character, Ruth, who's based
S1: on the woman who originally designed Barbie. And there's some
S1: gags about her. I think she was accused of like
S1: tax evasion or whatever, but she ends up becoming like
S1: the nice human face of this whole big kind of
S1: corporate world. And it's like, you might think Mattel is
S1: an evil corporation, but I'm just a nice lady who
S1: wanted to, like, have a toy to play with her daughter.
S1: And I'm going to help you realize how great Bobby
S1: really is. And I thought that was a pretty fucking
S1: cynical thing to have at the end of this movie
S1: where it's like, it's actually not these corporate guys. Bobby's
S1: really just about a nice woman who wanted to have
S1: a good relationship with her daughter. And that's the final thought.
S1: The very final thought we're going to leave you on
S1: is very glowing, positive, stripping away, pretending like this isn't
S1: this giant capitalist corporate beast, but just a humble, you know,
S1: like that Simpsons episode where Marge meets the woman who
S1: invents the fake Barbie. I'm just a lady trying to
S1: create a doll. I didn't love that bit of it.
S3: Yeah, completely agree.
S2: I liked the cookies and tea vibe with Grandma and
S2: she's sitting in the.
S3: Well, actually one of Thomas's favorite part of the film
S3: he was telling me.
S2: Was the fun.
S3: Fact. This is the fun. Yes, I've got a fun fact.
S2: You may know.
S8: This. I mean, here we go. Okay.
S3: Again, to be fair, I told you this fun fact.
S2: You did, actually.
S8: Okay, go ahead. Anyway, you you take the fun fact.
S2: Ruth Handler created the Barbie. That's not the fact. People
S2: know that already. It was based on her daughter, Barbara.
S2: Hence Barbie, which we know. And Barb, the real Barbara Handler,
S2: is actually in the film. She what? She is the
S2: nice old lady that smiles at Margot at the bus stop.
S8: Oh, at the bus stop? Yes.
S2: That is Barbara.
S8: Handler. I know.
S1: I'm sure that is a great fact. Thank you. Thank you, Mel.
S1: Via Thomas.
S8: Thank you. This is the.
S2: Patriarchy in action.
S3: Yeah. Huge. Kennedy over here. Yeah. Can I just say
S3: one other thing I would like to get your opinion
S3: on is part of my concern, even though I love
S3: Greta Gerwig, but going into this film, I was like,
S3: because Margot Robbie is so beautiful and because Ryan Gosling
S3: is so beautiful, I was worried about that. The film
S3: would essentially become a lot of eye candy, like a
S3: lot of beautiful people doing beautiful things. But I actually
S3: think they did a really good job at not making
S3: the two sexy. And like part of that was because
S3: they didn't actually have a love story together or not
S3: a traditional kind of romance. But I was pretty impressed
S3: by that, that like, they really did position it to
S3: Barbie's kind of psychological and intellectual output rather than her
S3: her sexuality and like her physicality, like they kind of
S3: made them. They did feel a bit plastic.
S8: Yeah, I think there was.
S2: Some kind of effect when they're in Barbie land where
S2: they look like still like a lot like dolls.
S8: Yeah. There was no.
S2: Like. Yeah there's no sexual like.
S1: Yeah. And I think that's what the performances were really incredible.
S1: It's almost like they, they did such a great job
S1: of looking plastic and rigid, but this kind of pain
S1: behind the eyes, that was like the one place like
S1: Ken who was so fit. Ryan Gosling was so yoked
S1: in this film. And, you know, he's very attractive guy
S1: with great hair like a certain other guy. His podcast
S1: but his despite looking so buff, right. And like stereotypically hot,
S1: he looked pretty upset and angry and like sad a
S1: lot of the time. Like he was trapped in this
S1: sort of plastic thing. I think that is one of
S1: the most interesting things is how they conveyed exactly what
S1: you said, Mel. Like a complete lack of sexiness and
S1: and like even like looking at them, you didn't feel, wow,
S1: you felt a bit gross in a way, because they
S1: clearly were really uncomfortable in those bodies.
S3: Yeah, they were trapped in there. Their perfection to to
S3: a large extent.
S2: Yeah, for sure. And like, it is funny because like,
S2: you're watching Gosling and he's like, so shredded 0% body fat,
S2: like so tan. But yeah, it wasn't like aspirational, any
S2: of it. It was just, yeah, that I thought really worked.
S2: And it made them kind of like took that element
S2: out and you could kind of like really believe that
S2: there were these life sized dolls.
S1: Okay, Anything else you guys want to say about Barbie
S1: before we do a hard pivot to Oppenheimer?
S2: I would just like to say and again, we're in
S2: spoiler territory, but I just thought the addition of Matchbox
S2: 20 push was probably their moment of the film. Yeah, very,
S2: very funny. And again, the set pieces were great. But
S2: that song choice, the lyrics of that song and the
S2: way they kind of like executed that sequence was just
S2: chef's kiss.
S3: Have you ever done that on a date with someone?
S3: Have you played an acoustic guitar?
S2: Let it be known that I haven't because I can't
S2: play guitar, but if I could like a 100%.
S8: Yeah.
S1: I'm 100% with you. I'd be the most I'd be
S1: even more insufferable if I could play acoustic guitar. Wonderwall
S1: push it. It all be.
S3: Happening So good.
S1: Okay. On to Oppenheimer. I'm not sure. We've talked about
S1: Chris Nolan at all on this podcast before. Are you
S1: guys fans of his previous films?
S2: Yeah, I love Christopher Nolan, Big Inception, Guy Love, Tenet,
S2: Love Dark Knight, one of my all time favorite films. So, yes,
S2: I am. I'm Nolan with my homies.
S3: Yeah, I'm hit and miss with Nolan. Some films I
S3: really love. Love the Batman films. Some films annoy me
S3: a bit more like Tennant. I probably like when he's
S3: a bit less into the kind of supernatural time warping
S3: memory stuff and more in kind of. I thought Dunkirk
S3: was really good. I like prestige. Prestige?
S8: Yeah.
S3: Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I find I don't love all
S3: his works, but some really resonate with me.
S1: Yeah, I a pretty big fan of Nolan. I like
S1: Memento with Guy Pearce is awesome. The Prestige is great.
S1: I love all the Batman films, but I really didn't
S1: like Tenet and so I was a bit like nervous
S1: about this film. And there was so like, like he
S1: does these things. Nolan where he announces like the title
S1: of a film and gives you a logline. And it's like,
S1: but it's like a fucked up version of this, right?
S1: So the movie comes out, the movie is announced. Oppenheimer
S1: And it's an exploration of the guy who built the
S1: atom bomb and people like, Well, this is clearly going
S1: to be some crazy sci fi thing about how the
S1: nuclear bomb ends up completely, you know, changing the history
S1: of humanity and probably creates a wormhole. And we're going
S1: to end up with this wacky sci fi film. I
S1: don't really think it's spoilery to say that. Like, that's
S1: kind of not really what happens. This is a pretty straightforward,
S1: like drama with a lot of talking and a lot
S1: of people in rooms talking about politics, about communism, about
S1: the Spanish Civil War, about unionism in academia and and
S1: grappling with the complexity of a very significant military achievement
S1: that led to the death of a quarter of a
S1: million people. And what that means for the individuals involved,
S1: what that means for America at large, what it means
S1: for the future of of humanity. I got to say,
S1: I was pretty blown away by this film. Like I
S1: Thomas is smiling at it.
S2: Because, like, we all saw the film yesterday and then
S2: like almost the minute it finished at like fucking midnight
S2: or whatever it was, I knew it was coming straight away.
S2: I was like, Well, my life has changed forever. This
S2: is the single greatest cinematic moment.
S8: I was blown.
S1: I was very, very, very moved by this movie. I mean,
S1: Matt Damon, who stars in it, said in an interview,
S1: I think before the strike stuff all happened, he said
S1: to his wife, I'm never going to act again unless
S1: Christopher Nolan asks me to. Like, I kind of think
S1: if I'm a director and I'm watching this movie, I
S1: just pack up and go home. I mean, I'm even
S1: in journalism. I don't even think anything I do could
S1: ever compare it to anything like this. I feel very
S1: distressed about my life right now because I just watched
S1: one of the most incredible pieces of art I've ever seen.
S3: I love that you take Christopher Nolan's genius is like
S3: a reflection on your own ineptitude.
S8: Like, you know, like sees him as a piece. Yeah.
S8: You know, like, I'm so.
S3: Glad this exists in the world.
S8: I thought we're operating on the same kind of a.
S1: Level, right? We're sort of, you know, he's Einstein to
S1: my kind of Heisenberg. And, you.
S8: Know.
S3: Okay, Tell us what gave you the feels?
S1: Well, I think it was just so not what I expected.
S1: And not only was it not what I expected in
S1: terms of not being so dense when it comes to
S1: science and kind of not really leaning into the kind
S1: of sci fi elements that Nolan's known for, but being
S1: very human, very grounded. Very character driven. It also has
S1: like my 3 or 4 favorite things I want in
S1: a film, which is like conversation about the Communist Red
S1: Scare in the 50s at lots of scenes where they
S1: try to unionize a workplace which we've been talking a
S1: lot about lately, like amazing timing for this movie. And
S1: then like allusions to the American Deep State and how
S1: the FBI was maybe involved in a lot of character
S1: assassinations for individuals. It's got an amazing history story about
S1: a period of America that I think was really significant
S1: and the legacy of that in the world that we
S1: live in right now. I'm like, that's not what I
S1: expected from this film or really from Nolan. And I
S1: think this is a thing that we will all agree.
S1: And even if you don't agree with how intensely I
S1: handled this movie, the performances around the board were pretty
S1: fucking phenomenal.
S3: I thought a great Cillian Murphy was just sensational and
S3: essentially carried the entire film. There were some great cameos
S3: and there were great Matt Damon, you mentioned Florence Pugh,
S3: Emily Blunt, all fantastic, but he really did carry it
S3: and was sensational in it. And I did find it
S3: really grew on me. I found the last hour and
S3: a half of this film essentially from when they did
S3: the trial of the atomic bomb was really gripping. I
S3: thought it was a bit slow to start. It took
S3: me a while. It took a while to get there
S3: to build up that tension. But where it ends, I
S3: see kind of how they needed to do that, to
S3: get to the kind of emotional resonance of it, and
S3: then really turned into something beyond a biopic in that
S3: last half of the film.
S2: Yeah, I found I was similar to you, like the
S2: first kind of like quarter of the film or half
S2: of the film, whatever it was, when it was just
S2: like in different universities, people talking at each other a lot. Okay,
S2: I'm into it, but I'm struggling. And then as soon
S2: as they did the Trinity trial, the Trinity bomb tests
S2: and everything from there, it really hooked me. I mean,
S2: the performances were amazing. I'll be shocked if Killian Murphy
S2: doesn't get the Oscar for this.
S1: I think this will get like a dozen Oscar nominations
S1: in a stack of wins. Yeah. I mean.
S2: It's such Oscar bait historical film. Big name director goes
S2: for ten hours and, like, the performances are amazing. Yeah.
S2: And so I thought, like, it was very it was
S2: a different type of Nolan film. I still like I
S2: texted you last night and said, like, still not Dark
S2: Knight levels for me, but I love I love the
S2: way as well. Like I was curious about how like
S2: sciency it was going to be because like you don't
S2: want to try and, you know, explain quantum physics to people,
S2: especially people.
S8: Sure you do already. Yeah.
S2: But you know did some really like there's some really
S2: beautifully like kind of done cinematic sequences where they do like,
S2: you know, they've got like the atoms flying around and stuff.
S8: And just like.
S3: That, I mean, I thought those little flashes of atoms
S3: were a bit silly. I didn't think they were. I really.
S8: Liked it. Yeah, yeah, I think I did think.
S2: There are so and again, this could be just like
S2: purely a result of seeing it, like after a long
S2: day at work and in the evening. But there are
S2: a lot of characters and like maybe 3 or 4
S2: timelines happening. And then some of them are like ones
S2: in black and white and you can kind of figure out,
S2: but like you really have to be like engaged in
S2: this film. And it takes about the first half of
S2: the film to like for it to all click into
S2: place and then you don't have to be like reminding
S2: yourself as to which story you're in.
S1: Yeah, that's interesting. It is told in a really unconventional way.
S1: Like there is multiple different timelines and they kind of
S1: all collapse in on each other towards it sort of
S1: reminded me a bit of Dunkirk in that way where
S1: that's got three storylines. I think one's like an hour,
S1: one's a day and one's a week, but they all
S1: meet up kind of at the end. It's not a
S1: sci fi thing. That's just the narrative device for this film.
S1: This one sort of starts at the beginning and one
S1: timeline starts at the end and they kind of work
S1: backwards almost in a way. And I kind of agree
S1: with you guys. You know, the start of it was
S1: a little bit slower. There's all these characters, but I
S1: thought almost everything pays off, like these kinds of interactions
S1: that they have, the little stories, the characters that are introduced,
S1: they all kind of come back at the end for
S1: like some kind of purpose. And for a movie it
S1: is long. I didn't find that that slow or dry,
S1: but for a movie that has that many characters, it
S1: did a pretty good job of establishing motivations for almost
S1: all of them. Like they were all adding something. There
S1: wasn't just someone there. My only my only real criticism
S1: is I loved Florence Pugh and Emily Blunt, and I
S1: wish that there was like more of them. Nolan doesn't
S1: seem to like love giving women huge roles in his movies.
S2: It was very funny seeing that we said it in
S2: like last night in the cinema, seeing Barbie like, which
S2: is like a stacked female cast. And then coming into
S2: Oppenheimer was just like so like male heavy.
S3: Also, I think like in some ways, you know how
S3: they were joking in Barbie about people watching men showing
S3: women The Godfather. I could also see them substituting that
S3: with a Christopher Nolan film like Courtney.
S8: Because yeah, and I was.
S3: Actually thinking about this.
S1: I'm just going to pause prestige like ten times to
S1: explain exactly what's going on here.
S8: Baby. Yeah, Yeah.
S3: I was kind of wondering, like, if what we're seeing
S3: with these two films is old Hollywood and New Hollywood
S3: up against each other, like Greta Gerwig style of filmmaking,
S3: I think really touches on the cynicism and this tendency.
S3: Towards irony of our generation, and it is essentially the
S3: narrative eating itself. Whereas Christopher Nolan is way more old school.
S8: So character.
S3: Based. You still believes in story, still believes in a
S3: character arc. And I think it's really interesting looking at
S3: those two existing in the same time because they do.
S3: I don't know. Do you do you.
S8: Think that's a really.
S2: Good point? I think even the response to them, obviously
S2: there's been so much made of how we've found ourselves
S2: in this, like Barbie Heimer, you know, kind of like race.
S2: And I think a lot of that probably comes down to,
S2: to like different sets of tastes, like being smashed together
S2: in the same week and, and lots of people like
S2: probably the three of us have appreciate both but there
S2: are definitely some Nolan heads like Osbourne and his cronies
S2: out there.
S1: I'm not even like a massive Nolan head. Like I
S1: like it, but I wasn't. That's what that's what I
S1: find so interesting. I wasn't into this being like, whatever
S1: it is, I will love. I was just, for the record,
S1: happily surprised.
S8: Okay.
S3: You said greatest film of all time.
S1: Yeah. Okay. Happily surprised to watch the greatest film of
S1: all time.
S8: No, no, no.
S1: That was that was a very knee jerk reaction, I think,
S1: in the cold light of day, you know? Yeah, like
S1: I got some minor quibbles with it, but I think
S1: it was pretty, pretty great. I think to this point
S1: about Bobby Vee Oppenheimer, like, I love that we kind
S1: of live in an era for both. I think, like
S1: you said, almost, we do love like fun kind of dumb,
S1: silly light stuff. But how great to also have a
S1: movie that is an original story. Like it's adapted from
S1: a book, but it's the first time we've seen a
S1: story like this on screen. It's told in a pretty
S1: unique way. And I think obviously Nolan, when he was
S1: planning and writing this movie, didn't expect it to land
S1: in the middle of a writer's strike and a actor's strike.
S1: But I do think the politics and themes of this
S1: film will really resonate for a lot of people, given
S1: the conversations in Hollywood right now.
S3: Yeah, I do as well. And I actually think Bobby
S3: and Oppenheimer, the characters both have similar missions, really. They're
S3: both kind of reclaiming their narrative and we're kind of
S3: going back to the past and we're reframing these figures.
S3: So I guess Nolan and Gerwig, I think, do have
S3: a similar project in that sense. They're about kind of
S3: revisioning like people from the past.
S1: And this is maybe my hottest take on it. But
S1: whilst having some issues, as we discussed with the feminism
S1: of the Barbie film. I thought this film like it
S1: didn't shy away from the actual reality and the shit
S1: conditions that women in the 50s had to live in
S1: and deal with in America. Like, I think the movie
S1: probably could have done a bit more with the amazing
S1: women actors that it had, but I thought there was
S1: like quite a lot of conversation there about how women,
S1: even if they were smart, even if they were trained scientists,
S1: just like could not succeed in this world and how
S1: they were written off and destroyed by both individual men
S1: and the structures that they operated in. Again, a bit
S1: of a surprise. Maybe that's why I enjoyed it, because
S1: it was not something I expected from Nolan, but was
S1: glad to be in there when I think other directors
S1: could have just said, Well, 90% of the Manhattan Project
S1: was guys, so let's just pretend women don't exist.
S3: I mean, I still think he largely pretended women didn't
S3: exist because I think there were only like three women
S3: the Florence Pugh, Emily Blunt, and then there was one
S3: of the scientists was was a woman. So I still
S3: think that they did kind of largely ignore women.
S1: Yeah. To be honest, I haven't thought this through enough
S1: to really go toe to toe with you on how
S1: this is an incredible, incredibly feminist movie.
S8: I.
S2: I also really liked, though, like we spoke kind of
S2: about the performances and obviously the whole thing hinged on
S2: Cillian Murphy, but I thought Rami Malek was really good.
S2: He's so good in everything he does. And also I
S2: loved Einstein like.
S8: He.
S3: Was so excited.
S1: Me too. Me too. I mean, let's just before we
S1: get into this, let's just flag that. Let's have a
S1: bit of a spoilery chat about some of this stuff.
S1: But yeah, every time Einstein, I'm like, That's Einstein. There
S1: he is just chatting away.
S3: Thomas Like leaned over in the cinema and he's like,
S3: Is that Einstein just like it is?
S2: That's the stuff again. I said to you, That's Einstein.
S2: And you were like, Glug glug, glug, glug glug.
S8: He was so excited. But no, I.
S2: Thought that was a really that was like a really
S2: cool addition. And I liked seeing like that was, you know,
S2: I guess I didn't know much about their relationship, but like,
S2: you know, this kind of intellectual handing over and then
S2: he comes back in at the end and yeah, I
S2: thought the performances were really good. And yeah, then Rami
S2: Malek has a kind of big moment towards the end
S2: of the film and, you know, we know he's a
S2: great actor, but yeah, like just the casting was great
S2: and even people with their little moments. Yeah.
S1: Gary Oldman, another Oscar winner, just pops in for like
S1: one scene and.
S3: Sorry, is Josh Hartnett. Is he coming back? Is this
S3: his return?
S2: Well, this is the thing. Like, I mean, he gave
S2: one of the all time great performances in 40 days
S2: and 40 nights, but he was amazing in this. And like,
S2: who the fuck is giving Josh Hartnett work? Like Christopher
S2: Nolan puts him in one of the biggest films of
S2: the year and he like, crushes it.
S1: We also haven't mentioned Robert Downey Jr at all, who
S1: is like the main antagonist who I also thought was
S1: like amazing.
S2: Yeah, but he's always good. Like Josh Hartnett, they've kind
S2: of like shaved them on, put him in a suit.
S2: He's good to go. Like, very impressive. Can we.
S1: Can we talk about the very end before we sort
S1: of wrap this conversation Because there's a weird so. Babylon
S1: Did you guys watch Babylon Yes, I was very much
S1: in the Babylon hive, right. I was one of the
S1: weirdos that thought this was an incredible movie. And I
S1: thought the way Babylon ended is kind of become one
S1: of the most influential ways to end a movie since
S1: it came out. It's this Spoilers for Babylon. The movie ends,
S1: and there's this montage of real world like cinema, just
S1: as like this ode to movies. There's like Avatar and
S1: Titanic and Terminator and all these big budget films. It's
S1: just literally a montage of it. Since that movie came out,
S1: Bobby comes out that ends in like this weird montage
S1: that sort of breaks the fourth wall. In a weird way,
S1: this film also ends with a very intense, like, terrifying montage.
S1: And this is the bit of the movie where, you know,
S1: everyone speculating about this story was like, Oh, I bet
S1: you when Nolan does an atomic bomb story, when they
S1: blow up the bomb like it destroys society, destroys the
S1: whole world, the universe falls apart. Practically. That isn't what
S1: happened in this movie. But the very end of this
S1: movie is killing Murphy, looking to camera and saying, Yeah,
S1: when we let off that bomb, we basically did destroy
S1: the world. And we get this montage of nuclear bombs
S1: going off. And then the final shot is a CGI
S1: or a visual effects kind of thing, with the Earth's
S1: atmosphere being lit on fire. It's a pretty grim but
S1: pretty interesting that all of these films seem to be
S1: like just completely zooming out of the world that they're
S1: in to say something to us.
S3: Yeah, I think they handled the reality of the bomb
S3: really well in this film. Like it was done really
S3: subtly and like there was the scene where they were
S3: kind of looking at footage of people who had been
S3: injured and killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and they didn't
S3: show the footage, but they just showed the reaction to
S3: the footage. And there were moments like that that I
S3: thought they handled really deftly. Like it could have been
S3: easy to, you know, show the big bomb in the
S3: film or, you know, show some of the disasters more literally.
S3: But I thought the quietness of that meant it was
S3: in the background because we all do know the horror
S3: of those bombs and we've all seen the the footage.
S3: So I thought it was nice that they didn't ram
S3: that down your throat during the film. Yeah.
S1: Do you think the film was a. Equivocal on this
S1: question of whether this was a bad thing to do,
S1: like I thought. So I thought the film did a
S1: good job of laying out all the arguments that everyone
S1: gave for this. But then pretty firmly, particularly with the
S1: end when Oppenheimer is like, No, no, no, Einstein, we
S1: fucked up. Like we totally fucked up. But I wonder
S1: whether that's me projecting some of my own politics on it.
S1: What do you guys think about the message of the film?
S3: Yeah, I saw it the same as you, that it
S3: was saying it was a bad thing. And what the
S3: film was trying to do was show how individuals can
S3: be caught up in projects, historical projects that are so
S3: much bigger than themselves. And there was that great moment
S3: where they took the bombs away from Oppenheimer, and all
S3: of a sudden he was no longer part of it.
S3: And obviously that was his moral distress that something he
S3: had helped create was now out of his hands. And
S3: what kind of role and responsibility does he have to
S3: take for the actions that followed? So I think that
S3: was its interest. But I think, yeah, overall, it was
S3: definitely not a celebration of of what happened.
S8: No.
S2: And you kind of do get that interrogation of like,
S2: you know, when people when people expect you to do
S2: things like the weight of expectation that falls on Oppenheimer
S2: because he's, you know, brilliant genius who has the capability
S2: to build something, you know, that will be used for
S2: like awful purposes. And you kind of watch how much
S2: that destroys him. But I loved there's a scene towards
S2: the end when he has an audience with President Truman
S2: and my favorite president after Reagan.
S8: And.
S2: And and and this is I didn't because this is
S2: another thing I'll add about this movie. I like Googled
S2: the fuck out of Oppenheimer when I got home. Yeah.
S2: But like, you know, that was a real meeting. And
S2: Truman really did get annoyed at him when he said,
S2: I have blood on my hands. And like, I love that.
S2: Truman says to him, like, no one cares about who
S2: built it, like they care about who dropped it. And
S2: that was me. And he's almost saying because he wants to. Yeah,
S2: he wants to go out. But yeah, like it's I
S2: definitely don't think there's any, you know, any conjecture about
S2: where you're supposed to think the morality lies. And I
S2: think Nolan definitely makes that point and the way it
S2: ends with Oppenheimer's position on it. But yeah, I thought
S2: it was, it was great. Like it was a great film,
S2: both great films, Really.
S1: Yeah. What I'm hearing from this conversation is Oppenheimer probably
S1: needed some more women, and Bobby could have done with
S1: more conversations about the international brigades during the Spanish Civil War.
S3: There was no union, Bobby, was there?
S8: No.
S1: Oh.
S2: We also just want to give a shout out. We
S2: had the film introduced by Andrew Jackson, who did the
S2: visual effects on the film and.
S1: Oh, he was like, there in your cinema.
S2: Yeah, he, he passed on a message from Christopher Nolan.
S8: He did.
S3: And Christopher Nolan said he hoped we all enjoyed the film.
S1: That's why I've actually got an interview with Andrew Jackson,
S1: our colleague Gary Maddox is doing for the weekend papers,
S1: which I'm very excited. Yeah.
S2: So check that out. And he seemed like a very
S2: nice man and the visual effects were amazing. So shout
S2: out to AJ.
S1: So now that we've seen both of these movies, I
S1: personally feel like a little bit sad, almost like I
S1: really enjoyed the hype and the buildup and the memes
S1: and the conversations you guys like Happy that we're in
S1: the kind of the post Bobby Oppenheimer landscape. Are you
S1: looking forward to chatting with all your friends about these films?
S3: Yeah, I'm really looking forward to everyone else seeing it
S3: and then seeing the kind of storylines that emerge more
S3: generally around the films. I think it's sad. It probably
S3: won't have a kind of moment like this. Maybe. Maybe
S3: towards the end of the year we'll see. I know
S3: there's some more great films. Challenges is out, but yeah,
S3: it'll be a while before we get to have this
S3: amount of box office gold. But I'm curious, you went, Ken. Angie,
S3: you've gone the blonde hair. Are you happy with what
S3: you've staked your kind of hair on because you could
S3: have gone the Oppenheimer route, but you've backed Barbie very
S3: like aesthetically.
S8: Yeah.
S1: I'm just thinking how I would have gone up.
S8: Into the hat and maybe a cigarette. Yeah.
S1: Yeah, I think that's not. Yeah. Less so accent. I
S1: have sort of dressed up with this, like, kind of
S1: like 50 sort of suede jacket. That was my attempt
S1: to sort of bridge both know, but I think I
S1: do feel good about it because Bobby will be seen
S1: by so many people, probably more than Oppenheimer, that they'll
S1: clock their hair. I think so I do feel I
S1: do feel like I've made the right call. Thank you
S1: for asking.
S2: I feel like I'll get way more chat out of
S2: Barbie with my friends. I feel like that'll be a
S2: much bigger topic of conversation than Oppenheimer. But yeah, I
S2: think both were great and I look forward to Oppenheimer
S2: two Oppie Rises.
S3: How do you think Oppie? Do you think unambiguously Bobby
S3: is going to smash it at the box office?
S1: Yeah, I think it will make $1,000,000,000,000 trillion, maybe not
S1: a trillion. My guess for the global box office in
S1: US dollars is 600 million. That's my prediction. Wow. You
S1: can hold me to that.
S2: I think I'm not going to make a prediction because
S2: I've done that before on this part. It never goes well,
S2: but I think Bobby will crush Oppenheimer.
S3: Yeah, I imagine so. And that shows in the film
S3: as well because it is so kind of accessible.
S8: Yeah.
S1: Awesome. Well, thank you so much, guys. I'm like I said,
S1: I'm a little bit sad what post Bobby and Oppenheimer Hype,
S1: but I'm sure we'll find many exciting things to talk
S1: about in the world of film, TV, music and culture.
S1: I don't know why I started sending so formal there,
S1: but I.
S8: Was waiting for you to be like.
S2: And next week we'll be doing a deep dive into
S2: the Nolan Back catalog.
S1: Ranking all of his films. We might be. That's not
S1: a bad idea. Yeah, we'll think about that. I look
S1: forward to it. Thomas Mel, thanks so much.
S2: It was a pleasure.
S3: Thank you. Was.
S1: This episode of The Drop was produced by Cheong. If
S1: you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop, make
S1: sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app. Leave
S1: us a review or better yet, share it with a friend.
S1: I'm Osman Farooqui. See you next week.