1 00:00:00,060 --> 00:00:03,810 S1: All right, let's fucking go. As they say in the business. 2 00:00:11,570 --> 00:00:14,390 S1: Hey there. I'm Osman Farooqui and this is The Drop, 3 00:00:14,390 --> 00:00:17,900 S1: a culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age, 4 00:00:17,900 --> 00:00:20,000 S1: where we dive into the latest in the world of 5 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,900 S1: pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Thomas Mitchell and 6 00:00:23,900 --> 00:00:27,050 S1: Mel Cambrai, of course, Tim, We did it. We've seen 7 00:00:27,050 --> 00:00:32,269 S1: both Bobby and Oppenheimer and we've lived to tell the tale. 8 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:33,210 S1: How are we feeling? 9 00:00:33,229 --> 00:00:35,000 S2: Yeah, good. I can't remember a time when I wasn't 10 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:39,199 S2: in a cinema, but it's. It feels good to be out. 11 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:40,850 S2: The other side feels kind of like the end of 12 00:00:40,850 --> 00:00:44,120 S2: succession all over again. Like I'm exhausted and sad it's over, 13 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:44,839 S2: but I'll probably miss it. 14 00:00:45,020 --> 00:00:46,760 S3: I think I want to go to another movie tonight. 15 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:48,650 S3: Like I want to keep this going. How fun going 16 00:00:48,650 --> 00:00:49,670 S3: to a movie. I'm not going. 17 00:00:49,670 --> 00:00:51,140 S2: To another movie with you this week. 18 00:00:51,530 --> 00:00:54,320 S3: So Thomas and I, we actually realized that yesterday was 19 00:00:54,320 --> 00:01:00,320 S3: our when we saw when we saw Oppenheimer. So good start. 20 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:02,990 S3: Good start, guys. Yesterday when we saw Oppenheimer was the 21 00:01:02,990 --> 00:01:07,140 S3: first time we had actually seen a movie together. However. 22 00:01:07,170 --> 00:01:08,150 S3: How do you find it? 23 00:01:08,569 --> 00:01:10,220 S2: Yeah, it was our first date. 24 00:01:10,220 --> 00:01:12,020 S3: Well, Thomas didn't save me a seat for Barbie, which 25 00:01:12,020 --> 00:01:15,050 S3: was a bit disappointing. But how did you find me 26 00:01:15,050 --> 00:01:16,309 S3: as a movie companion? 27 00:01:16,430 --> 00:01:17,120 S4: Uh. 28 00:01:17,900 --> 00:01:21,289 S2: Very chatty. And that. 29 00:01:22,010 --> 00:01:23,330 S3: Also Chatty Cathy. 30 00:01:23,330 --> 00:01:26,420 S1: And chatty. Chatty during the film or just before. 31 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:28,819 S2: During the film. And also, by the time you drain 32 00:01:28,819 --> 00:01:33,319 S2: that second, what then you were very chatty. And Mel's 33 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:35,180 S2: doing we'll get into this. Obviously, Mel's doing lots of 34 00:01:35,180 --> 00:01:37,280 S2: explaining things to me as she does on the pod. 35 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:41,240 S1: Also, I had a really funny sort of experience because 36 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:43,850 S1: a lot of the people who saw the Barbie premiere 37 00:01:43,850 --> 00:01:46,610 S1: on Monday were also at the Oppenheimer premiere, but in 38 00:01:46,610 --> 00:01:49,670 S1: like completely different outfits or just looking way more like 39 00:01:49,670 --> 00:01:52,400 S1: less glam and like just a bit depressed. And it 40 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:56,870 S1: was just so funny seeing the exact same crew of 41 00:01:56,870 --> 00:02:02,419 S1: like Melbourne cinema media types trudged from one thing to another. 42 00:02:02,420 --> 00:02:04,580 S1: It was, it was quite an experience. 43 00:02:04,700 --> 00:02:07,370 S3: Yeah. The Barbie premiere in Sydney was so over the top. 44 00:02:07,370 --> 00:02:09,920 S3: There was pink carpet, there were like Barbie boxes, there 45 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:12,769 S3: were cars to pose with. There was fairy floss everywhere. 46 00:02:12,770 --> 00:02:15,500 S3: And then the Oppenheimer premiere, you just kind of the 47 00:02:15,500 --> 00:02:18,919 S3: one bit of special effects was you walked through this tunnel, 48 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:22,070 S3: which I believe was meant to emulate being inside an 49 00:02:22,070 --> 00:02:22,730 S3: atomic bomb. 50 00:02:23,180 --> 00:02:24,830 S2: The only thing that I thought was because they gave 51 00:02:24,830 --> 00:02:26,210 S2: out arancini, which is kind of like. 52 00:02:26,210 --> 00:02:28,490 S1: A you guys got air and we didn't get any food. 53 00:02:28,490 --> 00:02:30,230 S1: We didn't got none of that stuff. 54 00:02:30,230 --> 00:02:33,649 S2: It was probably the yummiest atomic bomb I've ever eaten. 55 00:02:33,650 --> 00:02:36,590 S3: No, but Thomas was like kind of off faffing around 56 00:02:36,590 --> 00:02:39,680 S3: and because he was running quite late and we were 57 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,560 S3: last in the cinema, we were so far we were 58 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:44,690 S3: in the very back row. We could not have been 59 00:02:44,690 --> 00:02:45,919 S3: further away from the screen. 60 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:47,420 S2: Good for a Nolan film though, because you kind of 61 00:02:47,419 --> 00:02:48,380 S2: want to take it all in. 62 00:02:48,380 --> 00:02:49,459 S3: Yeah, that's true. 63 00:02:49,850 --> 00:02:51,710 S1: Did people dress up at your screening? There were a 64 00:02:51,710 --> 00:02:55,610 S1: lot of like Peaky Blinders kind of guys at the 65 00:02:55,610 --> 00:02:56,359 S1: one in Melbourne? 66 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,150 S2: No, nothing. It was so funny though, because I thought 67 00:02:59,150 --> 00:03:01,639 S2: the same thing. Like obviously the Barbie premiere was is 68 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,040 S2: like sea of colour, mostly pink. And then Oppenheimer, it 69 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,940 S2: was just like blacks or browns or greys or so 70 00:03:07,940 --> 00:03:08,810 S2: so grim. 71 00:03:09,230 --> 00:03:11,930 S1: How do you guys feel about the order We were 72 00:03:11,930 --> 00:03:15,410 S1: forced to watch these movies and because of the way 73 00:03:15,410 --> 00:03:18,440 S1: the premieres were structured. Thomas And you spoke to your guy, 74 00:03:18,470 --> 00:03:20,929 S1: Tom Cruise. You know, he had, I think, what was 75 00:03:20,930 --> 00:03:25,430 S1: largely seen as the sensible take, right? Like watched the big, 76 00:03:25,430 --> 00:03:28,610 S1: heavy three hour epic film. Oppenheimer And then as a 77 00:03:28,610 --> 00:03:32,240 S1: palate cleanser, watch. Bobby I think maybe we can talk 78 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:35,119 S1: about it more when we get into the films, but 79 00:03:35,210 --> 00:03:40,640 S1: my instinct is actually doing Bobby first kind of worked 80 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:45,680 S1: because Oppenheimer is such a big, heavy thematic film. You 81 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:47,510 S1: kind of want to sit with it for a minute 82 00:03:47,510 --> 00:03:51,590 S1: before going into something so completely kind of saccharine. 83 00:03:51,830 --> 00:03:53,630 S2: Yeah, I think we did it the right way. I 84 00:03:53,630 --> 00:03:57,560 S2: think seeing Bobby first is definitely better, and the only 85 00:03:57,560 --> 00:03:59,960 S2: thing I would change is that we saw Oppenheimer like 86 00:04:00,230 --> 00:04:04,040 S2: in the evening. I if I like my perfect day, 87 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,800 S2: like get up, have breakfast, go and get a coffee 88 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,680 S2: and then see Oppenheimer at like 11 and then like 89 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,130 S2: with some smart friends, not you guys. And then go, 90 00:04:13,130 --> 00:04:15,140 S2: go out for lunch after and like debrief or go 91 00:04:15,140 --> 00:04:16,849 S2: out for dinner because it goes for fucking eight hours 92 00:04:16,850 --> 00:04:19,130 S2: and then like debrief on it then because seeing it 93 00:04:19,130 --> 00:04:20,180 S2: after work I felt a bit like. 94 00:04:20,180 --> 00:04:21,980 S1: Yeah, you finishes at 930 and you're like, I want 95 00:04:21,980 --> 00:04:23,839 S1: to go to bed now. And I actually had a 96 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:25,880 S1: really bad night's sleep last night and I think it 97 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:30,230 S1: was because I just couldn't turn off the movie in 98 00:04:30,230 --> 00:04:30,770 S1: my head. 99 00:04:30,890 --> 00:04:33,919 S3: I agree. Thomas There was like, it actually caused me 100 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,200 S3: a bit of anxiety because I knew you were quite 101 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:38,720 S3: tired and you'd had quite a big day. And so 102 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,630 S3: during the film I kept worrying that you were asleep 103 00:04:41,630 --> 00:04:43,250 S3: next to me. Like I was doing that thing where 104 00:04:43,250 --> 00:04:44,989 S3: I was checking, Are you still with us? 105 00:04:44,990 --> 00:04:46,760 S2: So watch the head nod. I was there. I was 106 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:48,400 S2: there for all three hours and nine minutes. But I actually. 107 00:04:48,410 --> 00:04:51,170 S3: Think it's really interesting to have because we wouldn't usually 108 00:04:51,170 --> 00:04:54,409 S3: talk about Greta Gerwig and Christopher Nolan film other than 109 00:04:54,410 --> 00:04:56,150 S3: obviously they've both come out in the same day and 110 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,010 S3: the two biggest films of the year. But I think 111 00:04:58,010 --> 00:05:00,530 S3: it's really interesting to think about them together. And I 112 00:05:00,529 --> 00:05:04,430 S3: keep thinking about how where Nolan is weak, Greta Gerwig 113 00:05:04,430 --> 00:05:07,250 S3: was strong and vice versa and like holding them together. 114 00:05:07,250 --> 00:05:09,140 S3: I think on the surface they seem really different, but 115 00:05:09,140 --> 00:05:12,580 S3: then they do share some. Similarities as well, that interest 116 00:05:12,580 --> 00:05:15,400 S3: in kind of how stories are told and made? Well, 117 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:15,640 S3: let me. 118 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:17,979 S1: Tell you, one of them is a great exploration of 119 00:05:17,980 --> 00:05:20,980 S1: gender dynamics in the 1950s, and it's not Barbie. 120 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:23,890 S2: Okay. Firstly, I think we should just get into it 121 00:05:23,890 --> 00:05:25,690 S2: and start with the better film. Let's talk. 122 00:05:25,690 --> 00:05:28,210 S1: Barbie. Okay. Yeah, let's do let's actually talk. So what 123 00:05:28,210 --> 00:05:29,950 S1: we're going to do is we're going to talk about 124 00:05:29,950 --> 00:05:33,219 S1: both Barbie and Oppenheimer. Obviously, we're going to have pretty 125 00:05:33,220 --> 00:05:36,789 S1: spoiler free conversations for both. So if you haven't yet 126 00:05:36,790 --> 00:05:39,310 S1: seen the movies, you can still listen and get our 127 00:05:39,310 --> 00:05:42,159 S1: review and outtakes, but we will have a little spoiler 128 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:44,710 S1: section for each that we will signpost. So you've still 129 00:05:44,710 --> 00:05:48,040 S1: got time to watch the movies, not have anything ruined. 130 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:52,450 S1: Let's start with Barbie. Initial Thoughts the most hyped film 131 00:05:52,450 --> 00:05:54,549 S1: in years. How did you guys find it? 132 00:05:54,730 --> 00:05:57,190 S3: I loved it. I had a great time. I thought 133 00:05:57,190 --> 00:06:00,370 S3: it was funny. It was pretty. It was clever. I 134 00:06:00,370 --> 00:06:03,370 S3: do think it lived up to the hype in many ways, 135 00:06:03,370 --> 00:06:05,080 S3: but in some ways I also think that was its 136 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:09,130 S3: downfall because I think that Gerwig was trying to cater 137 00:06:09,130 --> 00:06:12,400 S3: to so many people in this film that it did 138 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:14,890 S3: become a bit bland and it did become a bit 139 00:06:14,890 --> 00:06:18,880 S3: kind of I didn't have quite the spark that I 140 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,490 S3: thought it would have, and it did become a bit 141 00:06:21,580 --> 00:06:25,270 S3: overly commercial. I thought, like when they were advertising this film, 142 00:06:25,270 --> 00:06:26,890 S3: they were saying, it's for people who love Barbie and 143 00:06:26,890 --> 00:06:29,650 S3: it's for people who don't love Barbie. And maybe by 144 00:06:29,650 --> 00:06:32,710 S3: trying to please everyone, it fell a bit short for me, 145 00:06:32,830 --> 00:06:35,500 S3: which I'm sure we'll get into later on. But no, 146 00:06:35,500 --> 00:06:37,479 S3: I had a really great time and I think it 147 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:39,729 S3: was I would recommend everyone go and say it. 148 00:06:39,790 --> 00:06:43,120 S2: Yeah, me too. I thought it was really funny, much 149 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:45,250 S2: funnier than I thought it was going to be. And 150 00:06:45,670 --> 00:06:48,700 S2: like I had like maybe 5 or 6 solid lol moments. 151 00:06:48,700 --> 00:06:51,460 S2: And I guess like Greta Gerwig, Noah Baumbach together, like 152 00:06:51,460 --> 00:06:53,469 S2: they're very talented writing team, but I didn't expect it 153 00:06:53,470 --> 00:06:56,380 S2: to be that funny or I actually thought they were 154 00:06:56,380 --> 00:06:58,990 S2: quite brave in the way they took on Mattel. I 155 00:06:58,990 --> 00:07:01,030 S2: kind of was impressed that Mattel let a bit of 156 00:07:01,029 --> 00:07:04,330 S2: stuff go, but then I do feel like the last 157 00:07:04,330 --> 00:07:08,020 S2: half hour it lost its way and the messaging got 158 00:07:08,020 --> 00:07:11,170 S2: very mixed up. And yes, similar to Gmail, I think 159 00:07:11,170 --> 00:07:13,360 S2: there was a bit of trying to please everyone and 160 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:16,120 S2: trying to tick every box and not be accused of 161 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:18,610 S2: not doing something or getting it like it was just 162 00:07:18,610 --> 00:07:19,960 S2: there was just a lot going on and you could 163 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:22,570 S2: feel it rammed in at the end. And also, it's 164 00:07:22,570 --> 00:07:23,980 S2: kind of weird when you watch a movie and then 165 00:07:23,980 --> 00:07:25,960 S2: you come and do something like this and your experience 166 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,660 S2: with it changes like as time goes on. But my 167 00:07:28,660 --> 00:07:32,200 S2: very initial thoughts, when the credits rolled, I was like, Fuck, 168 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,230 S2: that was amazing. Like, that was like the first five 169 00:07:35,230 --> 00:07:37,690 S2: people I spoke to about the movie. I was like, amazing, amazing. 170 00:07:37,690 --> 00:07:39,670 S2: So funny, so great. And then the more I sat 171 00:07:39,670 --> 00:07:41,440 S2: with it, I was like, Oh, but then this, which 172 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:43,510 S2: I guess is the nature of, you know, thinking about things. 173 00:07:43,660 --> 00:07:46,420 S1: That's really interesting because I had exactly the same experience 174 00:07:46,630 --> 00:07:48,340 S1: sitting there in the movies and the lights went on. 175 00:07:48,340 --> 00:07:52,360 S1: I was like, Wow, Like, incredible stuff. What a time 176 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:56,440 S1: to be alive, really. And then the further away I 177 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:58,570 S1: got from the cinema, the more kind of cynical I got. 178 00:07:58,570 --> 00:08:00,910 S1: And then the day after, I, I ended up with 179 00:08:00,910 --> 00:08:03,610 S1: what is my current take, which is that I think 180 00:08:03,610 --> 00:08:06,310 S1: for what this movie is trying to do, which is 181 00:08:06,310 --> 00:08:09,940 S1: basically take a toy that has been around for so 182 00:08:09,940 --> 00:08:12,910 S1: long and make a story out of it that is 183 00:08:12,910 --> 00:08:16,900 S1: fun and compelling and kind of for all ages. But, 184 00:08:16,900 --> 00:08:18,760 S1: you know, with a couple of gags for the adults 185 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,450 S1: and some fun sequences for younger people, it's as good 186 00:08:22,450 --> 00:08:24,820 S1: as it could be. Like, I just don't think there's 187 00:08:24,820 --> 00:08:27,820 S1: a version of the Barbie film that is better than 188 00:08:27,820 --> 00:08:31,150 S1: this one. Yeah. Given all the constraints and boundaries and 189 00:08:31,150 --> 00:08:35,410 S1: challenges around grappling with big corporate IP and doing it 190 00:08:35,410 --> 00:08:38,740 S1: in the kind of modern Hollywood ecosystem, like I think 191 00:08:38,740 --> 00:08:40,809 S1: it's fun. I think everyone should see it. I actually 192 00:08:40,809 --> 00:08:42,940 S1: do think people should see this movie because I don't 193 00:08:42,940 --> 00:08:46,100 S1: think it's like some criticisms I've got of it that 194 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,270 S1: I'll get into are not enough to turn you off 195 00:08:49,270 --> 00:08:50,830 S1: the movie. Like at the end of the day, it's 196 00:08:50,830 --> 00:08:54,160 S1: an hour and 54 minutes. The performances are great. Like 197 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,569 S1: you said, Thomas is really funny. Ryan Gosling in a 198 00:08:57,580 --> 00:09:00,400 S1: Revelation because we know he's a great actor, but his 199 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,280 S1: role in this film and the extent to which he's 200 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:05,050 S1: a big part of it, I think they've done a 201 00:09:05,050 --> 00:09:06,970 S1: good job of keeping that a bit under wraps. He 202 00:09:06,970 --> 00:09:09,850 S1: wasn't really front and center in a lot of the marketing, 203 00:09:09,850 --> 00:09:12,220 S1: but he's really, really good in it. A lot of 204 00:09:12,220 --> 00:09:14,890 S1: the cast are great in it. The production design is 205 00:09:14,890 --> 00:09:17,830 S1: amazing and the soundtrack, which had sort of been dripped 206 00:09:17,830 --> 00:09:20,410 S1: out over the last couple of weeks, really plays a 207 00:09:20,410 --> 00:09:23,590 S1: big role in the movie as well, which I really, really, 208 00:09:23,590 --> 00:09:24,490 S1: really enjoyed. 209 00:09:33,850 --> 00:09:36,610 UU: Lately I've been moving closer. 210 00:09:37,710 --> 00:09:39,540 S1: Before maybe we get to some of the things that 211 00:09:39,540 --> 00:09:43,439 S1: didn't quite work. What else did work for you guys 212 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:44,230 S1: in this film? 213 00:09:44,250 --> 00:09:46,830 S2: Yeah, I think I was surprised by Gosling as well, 214 00:09:46,830 --> 00:09:50,100 S2: and I thought he was very. He was very funny. 215 00:09:50,100 --> 00:09:51,720 S2: This is my take on the film. No, but he 216 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:54,329 S2: was like, really, really funny. He's there was some conjecture 217 00:09:54,330 --> 00:09:56,520 S2: about him being cast as Ken when he first announced 218 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:58,080 S2: because they were like people like, Oh, he's too old 219 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,750 S2: and stuff. But he was like the perfect Ken doll. 220 00:10:00,750 --> 00:10:04,140 S2: And like I thought also thought generally the movie was 221 00:10:04,140 --> 00:10:07,980 S2: more self-aware than I expected. And it kind of like 222 00:10:07,980 --> 00:10:09,660 S2: there were lots of kind of like winks to the 223 00:10:09,660 --> 00:10:13,290 S2: audience about how ridiculous this all is or when when 224 00:10:13,290 --> 00:10:15,540 S2: there was a moment we were supposed to think, you know, 225 00:10:15,540 --> 00:10:18,329 S2: it was a bit outrageous. The movie made us but 226 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:20,910 S2: brought us in and was like, Yeah, we know. And 227 00:10:20,910 --> 00:10:23,339 S2: I also thought similar. I thought like, I love a 228 00:10:23,340 --> 00:10:25,770 S2: big set piece in a film. And the set pieces 229 00:10:25,770 --> 00:10:27,630 S2: in this were amazing. Like, you know, there's a big 230 00:10:27,630 --> 00:10:30,660 S2: Ken sequence at the end that was incredible. The songs 231 00:10:30,660 --> 00:10:32,850 S2: were great. Like it was, yeah, it kind of had 232 00:10:32,850 --> 00:10:36,089 S2: that full like movie experience where it was just like 233 00:10:36,090 --> 00:10:37,530 S2: rich with everything. 234 00:10:37,530 --> 00:10:40,800 S3: Yeah, I loved Bobby Land. I just wanted to stay 235 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:45,600 S3: in Bobby Land. I wanted to understand how that matriarchy worked. 236 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,470 S3: I thought, like the look of that, the rules of 237 00:10:49,470 --> 00:10:51,689 S3: that world was so interesting. They were by far my 238 00:10:51,690 --> 00:10:54,960 S3: favorite part. I liked the cameo Barbies, like loved Issa Rae. 239 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:57,390 S3: I thought she was great. That was the kind of 240 00:10:57,390 --> 00:10:59,339 S3: where I thought the movie was at its best when 241 00:10:59,340 --> 00:11:03,390 S3: it was in Barbie's dream house and explaining that world. Um, 242 00:11:03,690 --> 00:11:05,340 S3: I also really, I thought there were quite a few 243 00:11:05,340 --> 00:11:06,780 S3: fun little and I wonder if you guys I don't 244 00:11:06,780 --> 00:11:08,820 S3: know if you played with Barbies growing up. There were 245 00:11:08,820 --> 00:11:12,689 S3: quite a few fun little throwbacks to actual Barbie dolls 246 00:11:12,690 --> 00:11:15,360 S3: like Tanner. I don't know if you know Barbie's dog, 247 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:17,250 S3: which like was just this toy that I think. 248 00:11:17,250 --> 00:11:19,920 S1: It's safe to assume. Mal, we don't know much about 249 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:20,579 S1: these dolls. 250 00:11:20,850 --> 00:11:22,559 S2: I was more of a Susan stretch. I mean. 251 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:27,840 S3: I didn't want to. She was. Their name was Suzy. No. 252 00:11:27,929 --> 00:11:28,200 S3: No one. 253 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:29,790 S2: Bought her that massive discontinued Susan. 254 00:11:29,790 --> 00:11:33,180 S3: When she was in trouble. Yeah, there were heaps of, like, 255 00:11:33,179 --> 00:11:36,420 S3: old Midge who was like, Barbies. Oh, the pregnant one. Yeah. 256 00:11:36,420 --> 00:11:37,980 S3: So I thought there were quite a few fun little 257 00:11:37,980 --> 00:11:42,960 S3: throwbacks to Barbies for fans of Barbies. But yeah, I 258 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,240 S3: also think there were a lot of weak points and 259 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:46,770 S3: it was kind of to me there were like these 260 00:11:46,770 --> 00:11:49,140 S3: really great moments, like the Ken scene that you guys 261 00:11:49,140 --> 00:11:52,140 S3: have mentioned or kind of the initial establishment of Barbie 262 00:11:52,140 --> 00:11:55,770 S3: Barbie's dream world. But then there was some pretty poor 263 00:11:55,770 --> 00:11:56,760 S3: moments as well. 264 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,540 S1: Yeah, I think in terms of what didn't quite land, 265 00:12:00,540 --> 00:12:02,699 S1: I'm really interested to have this conversation with you guys 266 00:12:02,700 --> 00:12:05,370 S1: because to me there's a couple of different layers to it. 267 00:12:05,370 --> 00:12:09,300 S1: There is some specific plot point and some character stuff, 268 00:12:09,300 --> 00:12:12,300 S1: but then I think there is a big top order, 269 00:12:12,300 --> 00:12:16,830 S1: almost kind of political issue that is present throughout the 270 00:12:16,830 --> 00:12:19,980 S1: film that just didn't quite work for me. But maybe 271 00:12:19,980 --> 00:12:22,110 S1: we can talk about some of the more middle of 272 00:12:22,110 --> 00:12:26,099 S1: the road issues here. The film's plot, if people haven't 273 00:12:26,100 --> 00:12:28,140 S1: kind of like kept up without giving too much away, 274 00:12:28,140 --> 00:12:31,200 S1: Barbie lives in this amazing dreamland. She's having a great time. 275 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,150 S1: Then things start to go a bit wrong for her. 276 00:12:33,150 --> 00:12:34,770 S1: This is all kind of in the trailers. 277 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,980 S5: It's breaks. Some things have been happening that might be 278 00:12:37,980 --> 00:12:38,819 S5: related When. 279 00:12:38,820 --> 00:12:40,180 S6: My world shakes. 280 00:12:40,470 --> 00:12:41,280 S7: Cold shower. 281 00:12:41,790 --> 00:12:46,559 S5: Falling off my roof and my heels are on the ground. 282 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:49,800 S8: Flat feet. 283 00:12:54,620 --> 00:12:58,069 S1: Her famously arched feet go flat. She starts to have 284 00:12:58,070 --> 00:13:00,740 S1: these kind of grim, depressing thoughts and she finds out 285 00:13:00,740 --> 00:13:02,990 S1: that she has to go into the real world, our world, 286 00:13:02,990 --> 00:13:05,750 S1: to figure out what's going on when she goes there. 287 00:13:05,870 --> 00:13:08,750 S1: The plot kind of revolves around this character played by 288 00:13:08,750 --> 00:13:12,920 S1: America Ferrera and her daughter, who link up with Bobby 289 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,220 S1: to try and fix things. I don't dislike that as 290 00:13:16,220 --> 00:13:19,220 S1: a plot device. I think that's kind of interesting. But 291 00:13:19,220 --> 00:13:23,150 S1: I just didn't think those two characters, Ferrera and her daughter, 292 00:13:23,150 --> 00:13:26,750 S1: were at all like developed or fleshed out, and I 293 00:13:26,750 --> 00:13:31,460 S1: kind of didn't like much that happened in the real world. 294 00:13:31,460 --> 00:13:33,740 S1: The dream world stuff is interesting. That's where all the 295 00:13:33,740 --> 00:13:37,150 S1: interesting characters are and that's where the interesting ideas are. 296 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:42,439 S1: Let's just get back to that. And I couldn't quite 297 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,350 S1: like even the real world. It wasn't really the real world. 298 00:13:45,350 --> 00:13:47,959 S1: Like Will Ferrell is the CEO of Mattel, but everything 299 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:50,150 S1: is still kind of heightened and a bit wacky. And 300 00:13:50,150 --> 00:13:52,370 S1: it's like they weren't sure if they really wanted to 301 00:13:52,370 --> 00:13:57,979 S1: display a real version of our lives or another kind 302 00:13:57,980 --> 00:13:59,989 S1: of fake version. And I've just got a little bit 303 00:13:59,990 --> 00:14:02,720 S1: too messy for me. How did you guys feel about 304 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:03,800 S1: that sort of tension? 305 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,439 S3: Yeah, I completely agree with you, and I think that 306 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,079 S3: was part of the challenge that Greta Gerwig probably faced, 307 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,630 S3: was that Barbie is a toy that doesn't have a 308 00:14:11,630 --> 00:14:13,969 S3: back story. Like she doesn't come with a back story 309 00:14:13,970 --> 00:14:17,330 S3: that Greta Gerwig can can use. So yeah, so she 310 00:14:17,330 --> 00:14:19,670 S3: had to make a narrative and I just hated the 311 00:14:19,670 --> 00:14:21,920 S3: plot of this. It annoyed me. And like, I know 312 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,580 S3: they you need a plot. I'm very old fashioned. I 313 00:14:25,580 --> 00:14:27,830 S3: know you need a plot, but it just felt so 314 00:14:27,830 --> 00:14:30,590 S3: silly and childish to me. And it was the point 315 00:14:30,590 --> 00:14:33,080 S3: of the plot like this. Some fissure in the world 316 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:34,430 S3: that they can get through and then they have to 317 00:14:34,430 --> 00:14:36,800 S3: get back. I just didn't want any of that. And 318 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,859 S3: it made it feel like a childish film to me. 319 00:14:39,860 --> 00:14:42,770 S3: Whereas I think and that really annoyed me because I 320 00:14:42,770 --> 00:14:44,420 S3: thought it was an adult film. But then there were 321 00:14:44,420 --> 00:14:46,010 S3: elements of it to me that felt like it was 322 00:14:46,010 --> 00:14:48,590 S3: for a child, and the narrative was one that, yeah, 323 00:14:48,590 --> 00:14:51,230 S3: you'd show your eight year old daughter great for them. 324 00:14:51,230 --> 00:14:54,080 S3: But yeah, I didn't want the real world idea. I 325 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,060 S3: didn't like it. And I think that's also partly why 326 00:14:56,060 --> 00:14:58,730 S3: I liked the, the Barbie Land stuff so much was 327 00:14:58,730 --> 00:15:01,220 S3: because it was away from that part of it. 328 00:15:01,430 --> 00:15:04,640 S2: Yeah, I agree as well that like, it did feel 329 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:06,170 S2: like two different movies. When I went to the Rent 330 00:15:06,170 --> 00:15:07,970 S2: Into the Real World, it became this kind of like 331 00:15:07,970 --> 00:15:11,359 S2: weird 90s like high jinks movie or something. And you've 332 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,100 S2: got like Barbie running around always being like the Benny 333 00:15:13,100 --> 00:15:15,380 S2: Hill music or something. And like, it was just a 334 00:15:15,380 --> 00:15:18,200 S2: bit yeah, that tonally felt very different. And Barbie was 335 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,720 S2: way more like Greta, and that was like, you know, 336 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:22,610 S2: the cool kind of like arthouse take on Barbie. And 337 00:15:22,610 --> 00:15:25,460 S2: then it just became this weird, like really very broad 338 00:15:25,460 --> 00:15:28,640 S2: strokes film. So that didn't really work for me. And 339 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,070 S2: I and I felt similar, like America Ferrera, a great actress. 340 00:15:31,070 --> 00:15:33,770 S2: We all know that. And like everyone else in Barbie, 341 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:36,530 S2: even these like Kens and Barbies that we meet very 342 00:15:36,530 --> 00:15:39,770 S2: briefly felt like fully realized. Whereas America Ferrera and her 343 00:15:39,770 --> 00:15:42,230 S2: daughter were getting these kind of like, really like you 344 00:15:42,230 --> 00:15:44,420 S2: get these like, lame flashbacks to them. And it just 345 00:15:44,420 --> 00:15:48,950 S2: all felt like very, I don't know, cumbersome or something. 346 00:15:49,220 --> 00:15:52,790 S2: So that I found a little bit yeah, a little 347 00:15:52,790 --> 00:15:55,890 S2: bit disappointing. And then I guess we'll probably get into this. 348 00:15:55,890 --> 00:15:59,490 S2: But like it became towards the end, like just the 349 00:15:59,490 --> 00:16:02,590 S2: mixed messaging and what the film was trying to say. 350 00:16:02,610 --> 00:16:06,640 S2: It was like just deluge of information and yeah, that 351 00:16:06,660 --> 00:16:08,490 S2: the last half hour really lost me. 352 00:16:08,830 --> 00:16:11,040 S1: Well, I want to ask you guys specifically that question 353 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,920 S1: around what the film is trying to say, because I 354 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,710 S1: think this is one of the most fascinating things about 355 00:16:16,710 --> 00:16:21,330 S1: this movie is how was it going to balance essentially 356 00:16:21,330 --> 00:16:26,340 S1: being a giant marketing campaign for Mattel with this vision 357 00:16:26,340 --> 00:16:29,130 S1: that we thought and hope that Greta Gerwig and Margot 358 00:16:29,130 --> 00:16:33,360 S1: Robbie to pretty interesting women in film two, probably of 359 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,780 S1: the most interesting women in film working right now with 360 00:16:36,780 --> 00:16:40,470 S1: a lot of experience telling specific stories about women when 361 00:16:40,470 --> 00:16:44,550 S1: it comes to Greta Gerwig, mother and daughter relationships particularly. 362 00:16:44,550 --> 00:16:47,280 S1: And you know, Margot, Robbie's been involved in producing a 363 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:51,420 S1: bunch of very capital F feminist films like Promising Young Women, 364 00:16:51,420 --> 00:16:55,680 S1: how these two ideas were going to merge. I think 365 00:16:55,800 --> 00:17:00,450 S1: the kind of the Greta Gerwig, you know, mummy issues 366 00:17:00,450 --> 00:17:03,810 S1: thing that she does with things like Lady Bird and 367 00:17:03,810 --> 00:17:06,780 S1: Frances Ha is sort of quite present. There's a lot 368 00:17:06,780 --> 00:17:09,629 S1: of conversation about mothers and daughters at all sorts of 369 00:17:09,630 --> 00:17:12,690 S1: different levels. We talked about how we don't think that 370 00:17:12,690 --> 00:17:16,680 S1: really landed for us with the America Ferrera and her 371 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:21,960 S1: daughter storyline. In terms of the movie's overall take on 372 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:28,320 S1: gender politics and on feminism and on how the patriarchy operates. 373 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:32,310 S1: My personal take on it, I'm going to be very 374 00:17:32,310 --> 00:17:34,830 S1: like measured about how I say this because I'm conscious 375 00:17:34,830 --> 00:17:38,189 S1: of being the guy. Yeah, I just didn't like the 376 00:17:38,190 --> 00:17:39,240 S1: feminism in the movie. 377 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,369 S3: But yeah, we've already got that guy, the Pod. 378 00:17:43,530 --> 00:17:45,210 S1: But I don't think it worked in the movie. And 379 00:17:45,210 --> 00:17:47,790 S1: I don't mean that like it's because the movie addressed 380 00:17:47,790 --> 00:17:50,939 S1: feminism is obviously not my point. I just found it 381 00:17:50,940 --> 00:17:54,570 S1: to be like a little bit either ham fisted at 382 00:17:54,570 --> 00:17:58,920 S1: points or too eager and quick to just like tick 383 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:02,130 S1: off everything. It's like we've got we've got a black 384 00:18:02,130 --> 00:18:04,590 S1: Barbie and a Supreme Court is diverse and we've got 385 00:18:04,590 --> 00:18:07,470 S1: a trans Barbie, but we're not really going to delve 386 00:18:07,470 --> 00:18:10,980 S1: into how those intersections actually relate in this kind of 387 00:18:10,980 --> 00:18:13,200 S1: world at all. And we're going to show you that 388 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,959 S1: there's a corporate boardroom full of men, and that's bad. 389 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,970 S1: And it's like, okay. Is this saying anything new about 390 00:18:19,970 --> 00:18:23,030 S1: the what is it taking this idea of Barbie and 391 00:18:23,030 --> 00:18:26,510 S1: telling us something we don't know? Or is it too, 392 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,770 S1: I guess, conscious of the criticism around Barbie that it 393 00:18:30,770 --> 00:18:34,459 S1: is defensive before it's able to actually say what it 394 00:18:34,460 --> 00:18:37,940 S1: wants to say and thereby kind of trapped by the 395 00:18:37,940 --> 00:18:40,670 S1: desire to just sort of like, you know, avoid being 396 00:18:40,670 --> 00:18:43,250 S1: criticized a critic for this movie. And when Crawford put 397 00:18:43,250 --> 00:18:45,590 S1: it in way better words than I could when I 398 00:18:45,590 --> 00:18:48,050 S1: watched this movie, she just she said, I think really 399 00:18:48,050 --> 00:18:52,640 S1: articulately that the movie's too keen to just, like, defend 400 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,669 S1: itself from any criticisms. So it doesn't actually say anything 401 00:18:56,670 --> 00:19:00,090 S1: that radical would take too big a swing. I really 402 00:19:00,090 --> 00:19:02,610 S1: connected with her description of the movie in that way, 403 00:19:02,609 --> 00:19:05,760 S1: but I'm really interested to know what you guys have 404 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:07,980 S1: to say about the kind of politics and feminism of 405 00:19:07,980 --> 00:19:08,520 S1: the film. 406 00:19:09,210 --> 00:19:12,689 S3: Yeah. I mean, I would love to see the director's 407 00:19:12,690 --> 00:19:15,810 S3: cut of this film because I reckon Mattel probably put 408 00:19:15,810 --> 00:19:18,720 S3: Greta Gerwig in her box back in her Barbie box 409 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:23,850 S3: a bit. Right. Phrasing. To me, it was very confusing 410 00:19:23,850 --> 00:19:28,200 S3: and it felt like every time Greta made a punch, 411 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,540 S3: she then had to pull it back and I wasn't 412 00:19:30,540 --> 00:19:34,260 S3: really sure where we ended up because there were then 413 00:19:34,260 --> 00:19:35,939 S3: these kind of, you know, I wasn't really sure what 414 00:19:35,940 --> 00:19:37,619 S3: we ended up and what to take away from it. 415 00:19:37,619 --> 00:19:40,590 S3: And I think that maybe that was kind of flagged 416 00:19:40,590 --> 00:19:42,689 S3: or we could have seen that coming because of all 417 00:19:42,690 --> 00:19:44,790 S3: the discussion about is it a feminist film or is 418 00:19:44,790 --> 00:19:48,119 S3: it not? And the Mattel Mattel executives saying it's a 419 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:51,300 S3: humanist film and Greta and Margot saying it's a feminist film. 420 00:19:51,300 --> 00:19:53,669 S3: And yeah, at the end, I didn't really know what 421 00:19:53,670 --> 00:19:55,800 S3: it was, but it definitely didn't have you. Speaking of 422 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,770 S3: promising young woman, that was like, you know, that really 423 00:19:58,770 --> 00:20:01,710 S3: made it that said something. And I don't think this 424 00:20:01,710 --> 00:20:03,990 S3: film really knew what it wanted to say. And it 425 00:20:03,990 --> 00:20:08,970 S3: kind of ended up a watered down, uplifting film without 426 00:20:09,060 --> 00:20:10,590 S3: any kind of real hit. 427 00:20:10,770 --> 00:20:13,500 S1: Yeah, if a film is inherently feminist because it has 428 00:20:13,500 --> 00:20:15,720 S1: lots of women in it and says the word feminism 429 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,720 S1: a lot, I feel like that's a pretty low bar 430 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:20,940 S1: and I feel like it just sort of fell over 431 00:20:20,940 --> 00:20:25,470 S1: that low bar without having to confront too many like, 432 00:20:25,500 --> 00:20:28,380 S1: powerful people with ideas about how things actually work. But. 433 00:20:28,380 --> 00:20:30,270 S1: Thomas You know, whenever I'm thinking about feminism, I think 434 00:20:30,270 --> 00:20:34,080 S1: about you. What what did you make of this question? 435 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,250 S3: And you already know your favorite wave of feminism? Yeah. 436 00:20:37,260 --> 00:20:42,750 S2: Third, famously the dopest wave. Yeah, like I do feel 437 00:20:42,750 --> 00:20:47,310 S2: similar essentially. Like I felt like they were really quick 438 00:20:47,310 --> 00:20:49,260 S2: to get on the front foot with everything that you 439 00:20:49,260 --> 00:20:52,949 S2: could have possibly accuse them of not addressing. And as 440 00:20:52,950 --> 00:20:54,780 S2: soon as I kind of felt that happening, I was like, okay, 441 00:20:55,230 --> 00:20:57,660 S2: I suspect you know that what you said is right. 442 00:20:57,660 --> 00:21:01,230 S2: Male Like they've basically been so conscious that people are 443 00:21:01,230 --> 00:21:03,780 S2: expecting things from this film and expecting things from the 444 00:21:03,780 --> 00:21:06,359 S2: people connected to this film. But then like we already heard, 445 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,840 S2: you know, like pre premiere rumors that Mattel had kind 446 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,540 S2: of really been actively involved in the direction and tone 447 00:21:12,540 --> 00:21:14,730 S2: of the film. And all of that, I think, became 448 00:21:14,730 --> 00:21:17,250 S2: quite obvious as the film played out. Like, you know, 449 00:21:17,250 --> 00:21:19,770 S2: when there's that and obviously no spoilers, but there's a 450 00:21:19,770 --> 00:21:22,380 S2: scene when we first kind of see Barbie and America 451 00:21:22,380 --> 00:21:26,070 S2: Ferrera's daughter meet at school and it's kind of meant 452 00:21:26,070 --> 00:21:28,530 S2: to be this this big moment. And they have an 453 00:21:28,530 --> 00:21:31,740 S2: ideological argument, you know, where Barbie thinks she's going to be, 454 00:21:31,740 --> 00:21:33,629 S2: you know, like she thinks she's saved the real world 455 00:21:33,630 --> 00:21:35,580 S2: and she thinks she's going to be greeted with hugs 456 00:21:35,580 --> 00:21:38,250 S2: and open arms and stuff. And the daughter kind of 457 00:21:38,609 --> 00:21:41,879 S2: lays out, you know, this speech, which feels a bit 458 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,580 S2: like feminism 101. And then that kind of happens again 459 00:21:44,580 --> 00:21:46,530 S2: and again in the film. But then like later on, 460 00:21:46,530 --> 00:21:51,510 S2: we get this like reversal when Ryan Gosling's can, you know, 461 00:21:51,510 --> 00:21:53,520 S2: kind of has his big moment. And that's when I 462 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:55,170 S2: was like, Oh, this is the humanist thing they're talking 463 00:21:55,170 --> 00:21:56,850 S2: about where we're trying to are we being forced now 464 00:21:56,850 --> 00:21:59,160 S2: to appreciate both sides? And is this kind of the 465 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,890 S2: actual message of the film that if we try and 466 00:22:01,890 --> 00:22:05,100 S2: always talk over one another and eliminate one another and, 467 00:22:05,100 --> 00:22:07,410 S2: you know, we end up in this kind of like 468 00:22:07,410 --> 00:22:09,179 S2: eye for an eye thing, and then but then it 469 00:22:09,180 --> 00:22:11,340 S2: flips way back in the last half hour to become 470 00:22:11,340 --> 00:22:16,590 S2: this like staunchly there's these huge speeches made by America Ferrera. So, yeah, 471 00:22:16,590 --> 00:22:18,720 S2: it just it felt like it was just like someone 472 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,450 S2: had written themselves into a corner and we were constantly going, like, 473 00:22:21,450 --> 00:22:22,200 S2: in a loop. 474 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,840 S3: Yeah. And then there was so much of those kind 475 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:28,800 S3: of big speeches that felt like they were that were 476 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,199 S3: trying to make such an obvious point. And like, at 477 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:32,909 S3: times I was like, Oh, this is maybe what I 478 00:22:32,910 --> 00:22:35,010 S3: would put on to, you know, this is gender and 479 00:22:35,010 --> 00:22:38,970 S3: culture studies 101 like, let's explain the patriarchy in the 480 00:22:38,970 --> 00:22:43,200 S3: most obvious clear way. And I felt like those speeches 481 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,340 S3: and those moments where they really rammed down your throat, 482 00:22:46,380 --> 00:22:50,310 S3: this kind of moralism behind it were very annoying. Yeah. 483 00:22:50,310 --> 00:22:54,180 S1: And I guess I don't I hope that's not Greta. Like, 484 00:22:54,180 --> 00:22:58,379 S1: I would like to think that her analysis of the 485 00:22:58,380 --> 00:23:02,160 S1: modern state of gender is more complicated than men are 486 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,800 S1: in charge of many things and that is bad. But 487 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,320 S1: then on the other hand, I guess I was thinking 488 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:09,810 S1: there's a lot of conversations in this movie about like 489 00:23:09,810 --> 00:23:12,420 S1: the Supreme Court comes up like a lot of times. 490 00:23:12,420 --> 00:23:14,790 S1: And I was thinking about the context in which this 491 00:23:14,790 --> 00:23:17,250 S1: film is being made in America, where the Supreme Court 492 00:23:17,250 --> 00:23:21,900 S1: has very recently, like outlawed abortion like that is on 493 00:23:21,900 --> 00:23:24,270 S1: one hand, it's maybe it's a bit cringe to people 494 00:23:24,270 --> 00:23:27,119 S1: like us who went to university and like studied gender 495 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:31,229 S1: theory to to see this being presented. But maybe like 496 00:23:31,230 --> 00:23:34,410 S1: a mass appeal movie that will be watched by many 497 00:23:34,410 --> 00:23:37,679 S1: people telling them that, hey, the world is kind of bad. 498 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,120 S1: A lot of men are deciding how women's lives are 499 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:44,850 S1: a government controlled. When we live in a world where 500 00:23:44,850 --> 00:23:48,900 S1: abortion is now illegal, is there maybe like maybe that's needed, 501 00:23:48,900 --> 00:23:52,290 S1: even if it's not exactly the nuance and complexity we 502 00:23:52,290 --> 00:23:56,520 S1: want or we think Greta and Margo can deliver probably is, 503 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,580 S1: in net terms, still helpful? Maybe. Maybe I'm clutching at 504 00:23:59,580 --> 00:24:00,300 S1: straws here. 505 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,020 S3: No, I completely agree with you. Even like when there 506 00:24:04,020 --> 00:24:06,510 S3: was a scene when Margot's Barbie goes into the real 507 00:24:06,510 --> 00:24:09,659 S3: world and she encounters men at a construction. Sign she's 508 00:24:09,660 --> 00:24:13,050 S3: in when she's rollerblading and she kind of says something like, Oh, 509 00:24:13,050 --> 00:24:16,050 S3: what is this strange anxiety I'm feeling? I feel a 510 00:24:16,050 --> 00:24:19,619 S3: sense of fear that I can't really define, which I 511 00:24:19,619 --> 00:24:22,930 S3: think is a very real feeling that women have in. 512 00:24:22,950 --> 00:24:24,990 S2: Whereas in the world. Right. This is amazing. 513 00:24:25,410 --> 00:24:28,920 S3: And like, yeah, she spells it out. So obviously. But 514 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,850 S3: to many people, many people still don't understand how that 515 00:24:32,970 --> 00:24:35,790 S3: men and women navigate the world differently. And so I 516 00:24:35,790 --> 00:24:38,130 S3: do think you're right, even if to us it's kind 517 00:24:38,130 --> 00:24:40,890 S3: of obvious to people who maybe haven't thought about these 518 00:24:40,890 --> 00:24:43,950 S3: concepts before. This is a really good way of pop culture, 519 00:24:43,950 --> 00:24:45,750 S3: introducing that to someone. 520 00:24:45,750 --> 00:24:47,159 S2: Yeah. And I think like, you know, obviously we're all 521 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,859 S2: in agreement that the issues being like kind of discussed 522 00:24:49,859 --> 00:24:51,609 S2: are great. But I guess my fear is that like 523 00:24:51,630 --> 00:24:55,620 S2: if you think about people who, you know, maybe at 524 00:24:55,619 --> 00:24:58,050 S2: that stage where they're like all of these conversations just 525 00:24:58,050 --> 00:24:59,850 S2: trigger them. The amount of times you hear the words 526 00:24:59,850 --> 00:25:02,370 S2: like feminism and patriarchy, they'll just like they won't even 527 00:25:02,369 --> 00:25:04,230 S2: it'll just switch them off before they even get a 528 00:25:04,230 --> 00:25:06,480 S2: chance to think about what the movie is trying to say. 529 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:08,610 S2: And I guess that is the concern I have is 530 00:25:08,700 --> 00:25:10,530 S2: that if it had been slightly more subtle, if it 531 00:25:10,530 --> 00:25:11,850 S2: had been more nuanced, then you might be able to 532 00:25:11,850 --> 00:25:13,859 S2: get through to these people. Whereas I can imagine some 533 00:25:13,859 --> 00:25:16,420 S2: people that I know who are like in that, oh, like, oh, 534 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,530 S2: you know, it's all become too woke, blah blah blah. 535 00:25:19,530 --> 00:25:22,040 S2: They'll just like hear this or see like ten minutes 536 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:23,940 S2: this and be like, Oh no, this is just another like, 537 00:25:24,210 --> 00:25:25,170 S2: you know, yeah, there. 538 00:25:25,170 --> 00:25:27,390 S1: Is going to be, there's going to be such discourse 539 00:25:27,390 --> 00:25:30,510 S1: about this movie. It's already been a cultural issue, like 540 00:25:30,510 --> 00:25:33,060 S1: Piers Morgan and others in the UK have already been 541 00:25:33,060 --> 00:25:36,530 S1: like slamming this movie for the erasure of men, blah, blah, blah. 542 00:25:36,540 --> 00:25:38,760 S1: Like there will be a lot of talk about how 543 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,820 S1: this is like corporate woke culture gone too far. Exactly. 544 00:25:41,820 --> 00:25:45,990 S1: And again, maybe in that context, its existence is like 545 00:25:45,990 --> 00:25:48,629 S1: a bit of a screw you to the kind of 546 00:25:48,630 --> 00:25:52,649 S1: growing emboldened far right. I want to get into spoiler 547 00:25:52,650 --> 00:25:54,690 S1: territory for a second because there's a couple of other 548 00:25:55,109 --> 00:25:58,830 S1: ideas about the politics of it that I think we 549 00:25:58,830 --> 00:26:02,970 S1: need to discuss. You guys happy to to get into that. 550 00:26:02,970 --> 00:26:03,869 S3: Space, boil. 551 00:26:03,869 --> 00:26:05,370 S2: Away? I love to spoil things. 552 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,420 S1: So one of the most radical ideas I think that 553 00:26:09,420 --> 00:26:12,480 S1: existed in this movie is this idea of like death 554 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,850 S1: and the killing of Bobby and that sort of like 555 00:26:14,850 --> 00:26:18,450 S1: present from the very start. And then the very end, 556 00:26:18,450 --> 00:26:21,600 S1: like the end of the movie, whether Mattel knew what 557 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,490 S1: they were signing up for or whether they even know 558 00:26:23,490 --> 00:26:26,160 S1: what this movie ended on, I'm not totally sure because 559 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:32,220 S1: it's quite intense where the entire Barbie world ameliorates what 560 00:26:32,220 --> 00:26:36,330 S1: the concept of Barbie is. Barbie Leaves the Dreamland has 561 00:26:36,330 --> 00:26:40,920 S1: a very explicit conversation about that decision leading to her death. 562 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:45,370 S1: And she does it. And I think I found that 563 00:26:45,369 --> 00:26:47,980 S1: quite satisfying in a way that, like, if Greta Gerwig 564 00:26:47,980 --> 00:26:50,950 S1: was able to basically shoehorn the death of Barbie, the 565 00:26:50,950 --> 00:26:53,409 S1: death of the concept of Barbie, even the version of 566 00:26:53,410 --> 00:26:56,859 S1: Barbie that exists now in 2023, that is woke and 567 00:26:56,859 --> 00:27:00,070 S1: diverse and whatever, I found that to be a pretty 568 00:27:00,070 --> 00:27:02,109 S1: exciting idea. How did you guys feel about the very 569 00:27:02,109 --> 00:27:03,220 S1: end of the film? 570 00:27:04,340 --> 00:27:07,060 S2: I really liked it. I feel like that to me 571 00:27:07,060 --> 00:27:10,040 S2: was like a big. Like, I can just imagine the 572 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,890 S2: conversation between or like email thread between Greta Gerwig and 573 00:27:12,890 --> 00:27:15,530 S2: the CEOs at Mattel being like, okay, oh, like budge 574 00:27:15,530 --> 00:27:17,540 S2: on this, this and this, but I'm keeping the ending. 575 00:27:17,540 --> 00:27:20,000 S2: And maybe like I would bet my life that's how 576 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,400 S2: it went down and maybe, you know, she was smart 577 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,050 S2: to do that and maybe Mattel were too because like 578 00:27:24,050 --> 00:27:25,820 S2: what's Mattel? Give a fuck if Barbie dies at the end. 579 00:27:25,820 --> 00:27:27,080 S2: Like Barbies. 580 00:27:27,260 --> 00:27:29,240 S1: Everyone still loves Bobby. There's still a million brand. 581 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:30,889 S2: That no one's going to be like, Oh, but the character, 582 00:27:30,890 --> 00:27:32,899 S2: like Margot Robbie, like walked off into the know, like 583 00:27:32,900 --> 00:27:35,270 S2: they don't care. Like Barbie is back as like a 584 00:27:35,270 --> 00:27:36,800 S2: brand we're talking about. Or people are going to be 585 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,439 S2: buying Barbies. But I thought it was a really smart ending. 586 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:41,930 S2: Like once we got to the actual ending of the film, 587 00:27:41,930 --> 00:27:43,609 S2: I was like, Yeah, I really enjoy this. 588 00:27:43,609 --> 00:27:46,580 S3: Yeah. And I don't want to. I think the idea 589 00:27:46,580 --> 00:27:50,810 S3: that Mattel is brave or is insane to me, like 590 00:27:51,109 --> 00:27:53,840 S3: people are saying like, Oh, that executives scene can't believe Mattel. 591 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,270 S3: Let us take potshots at them. Like that is. 592 00:27:56,270 --> 00:28:00,290 S2: Just sad that you offer. Is that my voice? 593 00:28:01,369 --> 00:28:04,400 S3: That's how in my head, how it sounds. I just 594 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,920 S3: think it is insane. Even the ending just feeds into 595 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,199 S3: a narrative. Mattel is trying to sell, which is Barbie 596 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,719 S3: for a new generation. They have to kill off a 597 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,510 S3: particular version of Barbie, which is the version that Barbie 598 00:28:14,510 --> 00:28:19,459 S3: is perfect and wonderful and physically aspirational. They have to 599 00:28:19,460 --> 00:28:22,070 S3: kill off that person to stay relevant. So to me, 600 00:28:22,070 --> 00:28:24,919 S3: this ending is exactly what Mattel wants. They want to 601 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,699 S3: reposition Barbie as something that all of us can get behind. 602 00:28:28,700 --> 00:28:30,619 S3: And I think they did that so well. Like the 603 00:28:30,619 --> 00:28:35,870 S3: idea that Barbie is an inspiration, like psychologically and emotionally 604 00:28:35,869 --> 00:28:39,860 S3: rather than physically is just genius, I think, on their behalf. 605 00:28:39,860 --> 00:28:41,540 S1: Yeah, it's a it's a really good point. And I 606 00:28:41,540 --> 00:28:44,150 S1: think there's another bit to the ending that that speaks 607 00:28:44,150 --> 00:28:47,060 S1: to it. Like we have Mattel in the movie, largely 608 00:28:47,060 --> 00:28:50,020 S1: represented by Will Ferrell and these kind of like, you know, 609 00:28:50,030 --> 00:28:53,570 S1: nameless suits, corporate goons, then culprit goons. But then at 610 00:28:53,570 --> 00:28:56,180 S1: the very end, we meet this character, Ruth, who's based 611 00:28:56,180 --> 00:28:59,990 S1: on the woman who originally designed Barbie. And there's some 612 00:28:59,990 --> 00:29:02,240 S1: gags about her. I think she was accused of like 613 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,000 S1: tax evasion or whatever, but she ends up becoming like 614 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,850 S1: the nice human face of this whole big kind of 615 00:29:07,850 --> 00:29:09,920 S1: corporate world. And it's like, you might think Mattel is 616 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,440 S1: an evil corporation, but I'm just a nice lady who 617 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,170 S1: wanted to, like, have a toy to play with her daughter. 618 00:29:15,170 --> 00:29:17,240 S1: And I'm going to help you realize how great Bobby 619 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,390 S1: really is. And I thought that was a pretty fucking 620 00:29:20,390 --> 00:29:23,390 S1: cynical thing to have at the end of this movie 621 00:29:23,390 --> 00:29:26,330 S1: where it's like, it's actually not these corporate guys. Bobby's 622 00:29:26,330 --> 00:29:28,880 S1: really just about a nice woman who wanted to have 623 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,550 S1: a good relationship with her daughter. And that's the final thought. 624 00:29:31,550 --> 00:29:33,590 S1: The very final thought we're going to leave you on 625 00:29:33,590 --> 00:29:37,910 S1: is very glowing, positive, stripping away, pretending like this isn't 626 00:29:38,150 --> 00:29:43,250 S1: this giant capitalist corporate beast, but just a humble, you know, 627 00:29:43,250 --> 00:29:45,950 S1: like that Simpsons episode where Marge meets the woman who 628 00:29:45,950 --> 00:29:48,200 S1: invents the fake Barbie. I'm just a lady trying to 629 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,120 S1: create a doll. I didn't love that bit of it. 630 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:51,020 S3: Yeah, completely agree. 631 00:29:51,030 --> 00:29:53,480 S2: I liked the cookies and tea vibe with Grandma and 632 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:54,310 S2: she's sitting in the. 633 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:58,040 S3: Well, actually one of Thomas's favorite part of the film 634 00:29:58,040 --> 00:29:58,970 S3: he was telling me. 635 00:29:58,970 --> 00:29:59,630 S2: Was the fun. 636 00:29:59,630 --> 00:30:01,690 S3: Fact. This is the fun. Yes, I've got a fun fact. 637 00:30:01,820 --> 00:30:02,180 S2: You may know. 638 00:30:02,180 --> 00:30:03,680 S8: This. I mean, here we go. Okay. 639 00:30:04,190 --> 00:30:06,650 S3: Again, to be fair, I told you this fun fact. 640 00:30:06,650 --> 00:30:07,460 S2: You did, actually. 641 00:30:07,460 --> 00:30:10,430 S8: Okay, go ahead. Anyway, you you take the fun fact. 642 00:30:11,810 --> 00:30:14,570 S2: Ruth Handler created the Barbie. That's not the fact. People 643 00:30:14,570 --> 00:30:17,570 S2: know that already. It was based on her daughter, Barbara. 644 00:30:17,930 --> 00:30:21,020 S2: Hence Barbie, which we know. And Barb, the real Barbara Handler, 645 00:30:21,020 --> 00:30:23,300 S2: is actually in the film. She what? She is the 646 00:30:23,300 --> 00:30:25,820 S2: nice old lady that smiles at Margot at the bus stop. 647 00:30:25,820 --> 00:30:27,380 S8: Oh, at the bus stop? Yes. 648 00:30:27,650 --> 00:30:28,670 S2: That is Barbara. 649 00:30:28,670 --> 00:30:29,450 S8: Handler. I know. 650 00:30:29,450 --> 00:30:34,010 S1: I'm sure that is a great fact. Thank you. Thank you, Mel. 651 00:30:34,010 --> 00:30:34,790 S1: Via Thomas. 652 00:30:35,750 --> 00:30:36,530 S8: Thank you. This is the. 653 00:30:36,530 --> 00:30:37,670 S2: Patriarchy in action. 654 00:30:38,780 --> 00:30:42,440 S3: Yeah. Huge. Kennedy over here. Yeah. Can I just say 655 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,300 S3: one other thing I would like to get your opinion 656 00:30:44,300 --> 00:30:46,070 S3: on is part of my concern, even though I love 657 00:30:46,070 --> 00:30:48,290 S3: Greta Gerwig, but going into this film, I was like, 658 00:30:48,290 --> 00:30:51,290 S3: because Margot Robbie is so beautiful and because Ryan Gosling 659 00:30:51,290 --> 00:30:54,710 S3: is so beautiful, I was worried about that. The film 660 00:30:54,710 --> 00:30:57,050 S3: would essentially become a lot of eye candy, like a 661 00:30:57,050 --> 00:31:00,830 S3: lot of beautiful people doing beautiful things. But I actually 662 00:31:00,830 --> 00:31:03,230 S3: think they did a really good job at not making 663 00:31:03,230 --> 00:31:06,440 S3: the two sexy. And like part of that was because 664 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,620 S3: they didn't actually have a love story together or not 665 00:31:09,620 --> 00:31:13,280 S3: a traditional kind of romance. But I was pretty impressed 666 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,170 S3: by that, that like, they really did position it to 667 00:31:15,170 --> 00:31:19,880 S3: Barbie's kind of psychological and intellectual output rather than her 668 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,550 S3: her sexuality and like her physicality, like they kind of 669 00:31:22,550 --> 00:31:24,500 S3: made them. They did feel a bit plastic. 670 00:31:24,500 --> 00:31:25,430 S8: Yeah, I think there was. 671 00:31:25,610 --> 00:31:27,020 S2: Some kind of effect when they're in Barbie land where 672 00:31:27,020 --> 00:31:29,030 S2: they look like still like a lot like dolls. 673 00:31:29,030 --> 00:31:29,960 S8: Yeah. There was no. 674 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,090 S2: Like. Yeah there's no sexual like. 675 00:31:32,090 --> 00:31:35,210 S1: Yeah. And I think that's what the performances were really incredible. 676 00:31:35,390 --> 00:31:37,970 S1: It's almost like they, they did such a great job 677 00:31:37,970 --> 00:31:41,720 S1: of looking plastic and rigid, but this kind of pain 678 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,300 S1: behind the eyes, that was like the one place like 679 00:31:44,300 --> 00:31:47,570 S1: Ken who was so fit. Ryan Gosling was so yoked 680 00:31:47,570 --> 00:31:50,480 S1: in this film. And, you know, he's very attractive guy 681 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,870 S1: with great hair like a certain other guy. His podcast 682 00:31:54,710 --> 00:32:00,380 S1: but his despite looking so buff, right. And like stereotypically hot, 683 00:32:00,650 --> 00:32:05,180 S1: he looked pretty upset and angry and like sad a 684 00:32:05,180 --> 00:32:07,130 S1: lot of the time. Like he was trapped in this 685 00:32:07,130 --> 00:32:09,410 S1: sort of plastic thing. I think that is one of 686 00:32:09,410 --> 00:32:12,470 S1: the most interesting things is how they conveyed exactly what 687 00:32:12,470 --> 00:32:16,460 S1: you said, Mel. Like a complete lack of sexiness and 688 00:32:16,460 --> 00:32:19,760 S1: and like even like looking at them, you didn't feel, wow, 689 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,190 S1: you felt a bit gross in a way, because they 690 00:32:22,190 --> 00:32:25,010 S1: clearly were really uncomfortable in those bodies. 691 00:32:25,010 --> 00:32:28,460 S3: Yeah, they were trapped in there. Their perfection to to 692 00:32:28,460 --> 00:32:29,420 S3: a large extent. 693 00:32:29,420 --> 00:32:31,470 S2: Yeah, for sure. And like, it is funny because like, 694 00:32:31,490 --> 00:32:34,280 S2: you're watching Gosling and he's like, so shredded 0% body fat, 695 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,070 S2: like so tan. But yeah, it wasn't like aspirational, any 696 00:32:37,070 --> 00:32:39,740 S2: of it. It was just, yeah, that I thought really worked. 697 00:32:39,740 --> 00:32:41,930 S2: And it made them kind of like took that element 698 00:32:41,930 --> 00:32:43,310 S2: out and you could kind of like really believe that 699 00:32:43,310 --> 00:32:44,750 S2: there were these life sized dolls. 700 00:32:44,930 --> 00:32:48,200 S1: Okay, Anything else you guys want to say about Barbie 701 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,170 S1: before we do a hard pivot to Oppenheimer? 702 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:53,510 S2: I would just like to say and again, we're in 703 00:32:53,510 --> 00:32:55,910 S2: spoiler territory, but I just thought the addition of Matchbox 704 00:32:55,910 --> 00:33:00,770 S2: 20 push was probably their moment of the film. Yeah, very, 705 00:33:00,770 --> 00:33:03,230 S2: very funny. And again, the set pieces were great. But 706 00:33:03,230 --> 00:33:06,290 S2: that song choice, the lyrics of that song and the 707 00:33:06,290 --> 00:33:10,490 S2: way they kind of like executed that sequence was just 708 00:33:10,490 --> 00:33:10,940 S2: chef's kiss. 709 00:33:10,970 --> 00:33:13,460 S3: Have you ever done that on a date with someone? 710 00:33:13,460 --> 00:33:15,380 S3: Have you played an acoustic guitar? 711 00:33:15,530 --> 00:33:17,660 S2: Let it be known that I haven't because I can't 712 00:33:17,660 --> 00:33:21,530 S2: play guitar, but if I could like a 100%. 713 00:33:21,620 --> 00:33:21,690 S8: Yeah. 714 00:33:21,740 --> 00:33:23,420 S1: I'm 100% with you. I'd be the most I'd be 715 00:33:23,420 --> 00:33:27,290 S1: even more insufferable if I could play acoustic guitar. Wonderwall 716 00:33:27,290 --> 00:33:28,280 S1: push it. It all be. 717 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:29,750 S3: Happening So good. 718 00:33:38,820 --> 00:33:42,630 S1: Okay. On to Oppenheimer. I'm not sure. We've talked about 719 00:33:42,810 --> 00:33:45,989 S1: Chris Nolan at all on this podcast before. Are you 720 00:33:45,990 --> 00:33:49,260 S1: guys fans of his previous films? 721 00:33:49,290 --> 00:33:53,340 S2: Yeah, I love Christopher Nolan, Big Inception, Guy Love, Tenet, 722 00:33:53,340 --> 00:33:56,760 S2: Love Dark Knight, one of my all time favorite films. So, yes, 723 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:58,550 S2: I am. I'm Nolan with my homies. 724 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:00,870 S3: Yeah, I'm hit and miss with Nolan. Some films I 725 00:34:00,870 --> 00:34:03,750 S3: really love. Love the Batman films. Some films annoy me 726 00:34:03,750 --> 00:34:05,850 S3: a bit more like Tennant. I probably like when he's 727 00:34:05,850 --> 00:34:10,000 S3: a bit less into the kind of supernatural time warping 728 00:34:10,170 --> 00:34:12,990 S3: memory stuff and more in kind of. I thought Dunkirk 729 00:34:12,989 --> 00:34:15,230 S3: was really good. I like prestige. Prestige? 730 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:15,689 S8: Yeah. 731 00:34:15,690 --> 00:34:19,290 S3: Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I find I don't love all 732 00:34:19,290 --> 00:34:21,840 S3: his works, but some really resonate with me. 733 00:34:22,380 --> 00:34:25,109 S1: Yeah, I a pretty big fan of Nolan. I like 734 00:34:25,110 --> 00:34:27,900 S1: Memento with Guy Pearce is awesome. The Prestige is great. 735 00:34:27,900 --> 00:34:30,360 S1: I love all the Batman films, but I really didn't 736 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,750 S1: like Tenet and so I was a bit like nervous 737 00:34:33,750 --> 00:34:36,690 S1: about this film. And there was so like, like he 738 00:34:36,690 --> 00:34:39,000 S1: does these things. Nolan where he announces like the title 739 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,730 S1: of a film and gives you a logline. And it's like, 740 00:34:41,730 --> 00:34:44,040 S1: but it's like a fucked up version of this, right? 741 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,070 S1: So the movie comes out, the movie is announced. Oppenheimer 742 00:34:47,070 --> 00:34:49,109 S1: And it's an exploration of the guy who built the 743 00:34:49,110 --> 00:34:51,540 S1: atom bomb and people like, Well, this is clearly going 744 00:34:51,540 --> 00:34:53,610 S1: to be some crazy sci fi thing about how the 745 00:34:53,610 --> 00:34:58,680 S1: nuclear bomb ends up completely, you know, changing the history 746 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:00,930 S1: of humanity and probably creates a wormhole. And we're going 747 00:35:00,930 --> 00:35:04,710 S1: to end up with this wacky sci fi film. I 748 00:35:04,710 --> 00:35:08,460 S1: don't really think it's spoilery to say that. Like, that's 749 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:14,160 S1: kind of not really what happens. This is a pretty straightforward, 750 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:18,030 S1: like drama with a lot of talking and a lot 751 00:35:18,030 --> 00:35:23,370 S1: of people in rooms talking about politics, about communism, about 752 00:35:23,370 --> 00:35:28,890 S1: the Spanish Civil War, about unionism in academia and and 753 00:35:28,890 --> 00:35:35,250 S1: grappling with the complexity of a very significant military achievement 754 00:35:35,250 --> 00:35:37,480 S1: that led to the death of a quarter of a 755 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,200 S1: million people. And what that means for the individuals involved, 756 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,569 S1: what that means for America at large, what it means 757 00:35:42,570 --> 00:35:45,959 S1: for the future of of humanity. I got to say, 758 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,440 S1: I was pretty blown away by this film. Like I 759 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:51,390 S1: Thomas is smiling at it. 760 00:35:51,690 --> 00:35:53,850 S2: Because, like, we all saw the film yesterday and then 761 00:35:53,850 --> 00:35:56,549 S2: like almost the minute it finished at like fucking midnight 762 00:35:56,550 --> 00:35:59,160 S2: or whatever it was, I knew it was coming straight away. 763 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,100 S2: I was like, Well, my life has changed forever. This 764 00:36:02,100 --> 00:36:04,310 S2: is the single greatest cinematic moment. 765 00:36:04,310 --> 00:36:04,879 S8: I was blown. 766 00:36:04,950 --> 00:36:08,490 S1: I was very, very, very moved by this movie. I mean, 767 00:36:08,489 --> 00:36:11,730 S1: Matt Damon, who stars in it, said in an interview, 768 00:36:11,730 --> 00:36:14,640 S1: I think before the strike stuff all happened, he said 769 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,160 S1: to his wife, I'm never going to act again unless 770 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,620 S1: Christopher Nolan asks me to. Like, I kind of think 771 00:36:19,620 --> 00:36:22,529 S1: if I'm a director and I'm watching this movie, I 772 00:36:22,530 --> 00:36:24,810 S1: just pack up and go home. I mean, I'm even 773 00:36:24,810 --> 00:36:27,600 S1: in journalism. I don't even think anything I do could 774 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,359 S1: ever compare it to anything like this. I feel very 775 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,420 S1: distressed about my life right now because I just watched 776 00:36:33,420 --> 00:36:37,469 S1: one of the most incredible pieces of art I've ever seen. 777 00:36:37,469 --> 00:36:40,560 S3: I love that you take Christopher Nolan's genius is like 778 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:42,870 S3: a reflection on your own ineptitude. 779 00:36:43,110 --> 00:36:45,390 S8: Like, you know, like sees him as a piece. Yeah. 780 00:36:45,390 --> 00:36:45,990 S8: You know, like, I'm so. 781 00:36:45,989 --> 00:36:47,280 S3: Glad this exists in the world. 782 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:49,020 S8: I thought we're operating on the same kind of a. 783 00:36:49,020 --> 00:36:51,960 S1: Level, right? We're sort of, you know, he's Einstein to 784 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:53,460 S1: my kind of Heisenberg. And, you. 785 00:36:53,460 --> 00:36:53,790 S8: Know. 786 00:36:55,860 --> 00:36:57,630 S3: Okay, Tell us what gave you the feels? 787 00:36:57,930 --> 00:37:01,020 S1: Well, I think it was just so not what I expected. 788 00:37:01,020 --> 00:37:03,660 S1: And not only was it not what I expected in 789 00:37:03,660 --> 00:37:06,090 S1: terms of not being so dense when it comes to 790 00:37:06,090 --> 00:37:09,839 S1: science and kind of not really leaning into the kind 791 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,680 S1: of sci fi elements that Nolan's known for, but being 792 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:18,710 S1: very human, very grounded. Very character driven. It also has 793 00:37:18,710 --> 00:37:21,170 S1: like my 3 or 4 favorite things I want in 794 00:37:21,170 --> 00:37:24,890 S1: a film, which is like conversation about the Communist Red 795 00:37:24,890 --> 00:37:28,009 S1: Scare in the 50s at lots of scenes where they 796 00:37:28,010 --> 00:37:30,919 S1: try to unionize a workplace which we've been talking a 797 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,320 S1: lot about lately, like amazing timing for this movie. And 798 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,410 S1: then like allusions to the American Deep State and how 799 00:37:36,410 --> 00:37:39,439 S1: the FBI was maybe involved in a lot of character 800 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:43,400 S1: assassinations for individuals. It's got an amazing history story about 801 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,030 S1: a period of America that I think was really significant 802 00:37:47,030 --> 00:37:50,000 S1: and the legacy of that in the world that we 803 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:51,890 S1: live in right now. I'm like, that's not what I 804 00:37:51,890 --> 00:37:55,580 S1: expected from this film or really from Nolan. And I 805 00:37:55,580 --> 00:37:57,379 S1: think this is a thing that we will all agree. 806 00:37:57,380 --> 00:37:59,810 S1: And even if you don't agree with how intensely I 807 00:37:59,810 --> 00:38:03,890 S1: handled this movie, the performances around the board were pretty 808 00:38:03,890 --> 00:38:05,030 S1: fucking phenomenal. 809 00:38:05,030 --> 00:38:08,390 S3: I thought a great Cillian Murphy was just sensational and 810 00:38:08,390 --> 00:38:11,420 S3: essentially carried the entire film. There were some great cameos 811 00:38:11,420 --> 00:38:14,870 S3: and there were great Matt Damon, you mentioned Florence Pugh, 812 00:38:14,870 --> 00:38:19,339 S3: Emily Blunt, all fantastic, but he really did carry it 813 00:38:19,340 --> 00:38:22,580 S3: and was sensational in it. And I did find it 814 00:38:22,580 --> 00:38:26,299 S3: really grew on me. I found the last hour and 815 00:38:26,300 --> 00:38:28,940 S3: a half of this film essentially from when they did 816 00:38:28,940 --> 00:38:33,140 S3: the trial of the atomic bomb was really gripping. I 817 00:38:33,140 --> 00:38:34,790 S3: thought it was a bit slow to start. It took 818 00:38:34,790 --> 00:38:36,560 S3: me a while. It took a while to get there 819 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,020 S3: to build up that tension. But where it ends, I 820 00:38:39,020 --> 00:38:41,240 S3: see kind of how they needed to do that, to 821 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,730 S3: get to the kind of emotional resonance of it, and 822 00:38:43,730 --> 00:38:47,510 S3: then really turned into something beyond a biopic in that 823 00:38:47,510 --> 00:38:48,920 S3: last half of the film. 824 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,620 S2: Yeah, I found I was similar to you, like the 825 00:38:51,620 --> 00:38:53,839 S2: first kind of like quarter of the film or half 826 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:55,160 S2: of the film, whatever it was, when it was just 827 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:59,060 S2: like in different universities, people talking at each other a lot. Okay, 828 00:38:59,270 --> 00:39:00,920 S2: I'm into it, but I'm struggling. And then as soon 829 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,320 S2: as they did the Trinity trial, the Trinity bomb tests 830 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:05,989 S2: and everything from there, it really hooked me. I mean, 831 00:39:05,989 --> 00:39:08,180 S2: the performances were amazing. I'll be shocked if Killian Murphy 832 00:39:08,180 --> 00:39:09,710 S2: doesn't get the Oscar for this. 833 00:39:09,710 --> 00:39:11,960 S1: I think this will get like a dozen Oscar nominations 834 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:13,250 S1: in a stack of wins. Yeah. I mean. 835 00:39:13,430 --> 00:39:16,520 S2: It's such Oscar bait historical film. Big name director goes 836 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,910 S2: for ten hours and, like, the performances are amazing. Yeah. 837 00:39:19,910 --> 00:39:21,770 S2: And so I thought, like, it was very it was 838 00:39:21,770 --> 00:39:24,200 S2: a different type of Nolan film. I still like I 839 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:26,690 S2: texted you last night and said, like, still not Dark 840 00:39:26,690 --> 00:39:29,750 S2: Knight levels for me, but I love I love the 841 00:39:29,750 --> 00:39:31,630 S2: way as well. Like I was curious about how like 842 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:33,530 S2: sciency it was going to be because like you don't 843 00:39:33,530 --> 00:39:36,259 S2: want to try and, you know, explain quantum physics to people, 844 00:39:36,380 --> 00:39:36,830 S2: especially people. 845 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:38,569 S8: Sure you do already. Yeah. 846 00:39:38,810 --> 00:39:40,879 S2: But you know did some really like there's some really 847 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:45,049 S2: beautifully like kind of done cinematic sequences where they do like, 848 00:39:45,050 --> 00:39:47,480 S2: you know, they've got like the atoms flying around and stuff. 849 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:47,959 S8: And just like. 850 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,960 S3: That, I mean, I thought those little flashes of atoms 851 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,450 S3: were a bit silly. I didn't think they were. I really. 852 00:39:53,450 --> 00:39:55,670 S8: Liked it. Yeah, yeah, I think I did think. 853 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,370 S2: There are so and again, this could be just like 854 00:39:58,370 --> 00:40:00,919 S2: purely a result of seeing it, like after a long 855 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:02,960 S2: day at work and in the evening. But there are 856 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,359 S2: a lot of characters and like maybe 3 or 4 857 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,880 S2: timelines happening. And then some of them are like ones 858 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:09,230 S2: in black and white and you can kind of figure out, 859 00:40:09,230 --> 00:40:12,620 S2: but like you really have to be like engaged in 860 00:40:12,620 --> 00:40:14,810 S2: this film. And it takes about the first half of 861 00:40:14,810 --> 00:40:16,460 S2: the film to like for it to all click into 862 00:40:16,460 --> 00:40:18,529 S2: place and then you don't have to be like reminding 863 00:40:18,530 --> 00:40:20,330 S2: yourself as to which story you're in. 864 00:40:20,330 --> 00:40:24,230 S1: Yeah, that's interesting. It is told in a really unconventional way. 865 00:40:24,230 --> 00:40:28,460 S1: Like there is multiple different timelines and they kind of 866 00:40:28,460 --> 00:40:30,830 S1: all collapse in on each other towards it sort of 867 00:40:30,830 --> 00:40:32,960 S1: reminded me a bit of Dunkirk in that way where 868 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,690 S1: that's got three storylines. I think one's like an hour, 869 00:40:35,690 --> 00:40:37,250 S1: one's a day and one's a week, but they all 870 00:40:37,250 --> 00:40:38,930 S1: meet up kind of at the end. It's not a 871 00:40:38,930 --> 00:40:42,319 S1: sci fi thing. That's just the narrative device for this film. 872 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:44,810 S1: This one sort of starts at the beginning and one 873 00:40:44,810 --> 00:40:46,910 S1: timeline starts at the end and they kind of work 874 00:40:47,030 --> 00:40:50,270 S1: backwards almost in a way. And I kind of agree 875 00:40:50,270 --> 00:40:52,160 S1: with you guys. You know, the start of it was 876 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,080 S1: a little bit slower. There's all these characters, but I 877 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:58,489 S1: thought almost everything pays off, like these kinds of interactions 878 00:40:58,489 --> 00:41:01,670 S1: that they have, the little stories, the characters that are introduced, 879 00:41:02,030 --> 00:41:05,060 S1: they all kind of come back at the end for 880 00:41:05,060 --> 00:41:08,000 S1: like some kind of purpose. And for a movie it 881 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,690 S1: is long. I didn't find that that slow or dry, 882 00:41:11,690 --> 00:41:14,060 S1: but for a movie that has that many characters, it 883 00:41:14,060 --> 00:41:17,930 S1: did a pretty good job of establishing motivations for almost 884 00:41:17,930 --> 00:41:20,719 S1: all of them. Like they were all adding something. There 885 00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:24,290 S1: wasn't just someone there. My only my only real criticism 886 00:41:24,290 --> 00:41:26,240 S1: is I loved Florence Pugh and Emily Blunt, and I 887 00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:29,570 S1: wish that there was like more of them. Nolan doesn't 888 00:41:29,570 --> 00:41:33,320 S1: seem to like love giving women huge roles in his movies. 889 00:41:33,410 --> 00:41:35,360 S2: It was very funny seeing that we said it in 890 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,509 S2: like last night in the cinema, seeing Barbie like, which 891 00:41:38,510 --> 00:41:41,060 S2: is like a stacked female cast. And then coming into 892 00:41:41,060 --> 00:41:44,960 S2: Oppenheimer was just like so like male heavy. 893 00:41:45,110 --> 00:41:47,300 S3: Also, I think like in some ways, you know how 894 00:41:47,300 --> 00:41:50,719 S3: they were joking in Barbie about people watching men showing 895 00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:53,900 S3: women The Godfather. I could also see them substituting that 896 00:41:53,900 --> 00:41:56,660 S3: with a Christopher Nolan film like Courtney. 897 00:41:56,989 --> 00:41:58,550 S8: Because yeah, and I was. 898 00:41:58,550 --> 00:41:59,360 S3: Actually thinking about this. 899 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:01,790 S1: I'm just going to pause prestige like ten times to 900 00:42:01,790 --> 00:42:03,109 S1: explain exactly what's going on here. 901 00:42:03,110 --> 00:42:04,560 S8: Baby. Yeah, Yeah. 902 00:42:04,610 --> 00:42:07,370 S3: I was kind of wondering, like, if what we're seeing 903 00:42:07,370 --> 00:42:10,580 S3: with these two films is old Hollywood and New Hollywood 904 00:42:10,580 --> 00:42:14,120 S3: up against each other, like Greta Gerwig style of filmmaking, 905 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,270 S3: I think really touches on the cynicism and this tendency. 906 00:42:17,270 --> 00:42:20,930 S3: Towards irony of our generation, and it is essentially the 907 00:42:20,930 --> 00:42:24,920 S3: narrative eating itself. Whereas Christopher Nolan is way more old school. 908 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:26,030 S8: So character. 909 00:42:26,030 --> 00:42:29,840 S3: Based. You still believes in story, still believes in a 910 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,290 S3: character arc. And I think it's really interesting looking at 911 00:42:33,290 --> 00:42:35,719 S3: those two existing in the same time because they do. 912 00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:36,839 S3: I don't know. Do you do you. 913 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:37,879 S8: Think that's a really. 914 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:39,859 S2: Good point? I think even the response to them, obviously 915 00:42:39,860 --> 00:42:41,840 S2: there's been so much made of how we've found ourselves 916 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,320 S2: in this, like Barbie Heimer, you know, kind of like race. 917 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,120 S2: And I think a lot of that probably comes down to, 918 00:42:47,270 --> 00:42:50,930 S2: to like different sets of tastes, like being smashed together 919 00:42:50,930 --> 00:42:53,270 S2: in the same week and, and lots of people like 920 00:42:53,270 --> 00:42:56,150 S2: probably the three of us have appreciate both but there 921 00:42:56,150 --> 00:42:59,420 S2: are definitely some Nolan heads like Osbourne and his cronies 922 00:42:59,420 --> 00:43:00,020 S2: out there. 923 00:43:00,410 --> 00:43:02,720 S1: I'm not even like a massive Nolan head. Like I 924 00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:04,610 S1: like it, but I wasn't. That's what that's what I 925 00:43:04,610 --> 00:43:06,469 S1: find so interesting. I wasn't into this being like, whatever 926 00:43:06,469 --> 00:43:09,440 S1: it is, I will love. I was just, for the record, 927 00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:10,940 S1: happily surprised. 928 00:43:10,940 --> 00:43:11,210 S8: Okay. 929 00:43:11,210 --> 00:43:13,520 S3: You said greatest film of all time. 930 00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,279 S1: Yeah. Okay. Happily surprised to watch the greatest film of 931 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:16,580 S1: all time. 932 00:43:16,610 --> 00:43:17,150 S8: No, no, no. 933 00:43:17,510 --> 00:43:20,210 S1: That was that was a very knee jerk reaction, I think, 934 00:43:20,210 --> 00:43:23,030 S1: in the cold light of day, you know? Yeah, like 935 00:43:23,270 --> 00:43:25,310 S1: I got some minor quibbles with it, but I think 936 00:43:25,310 --> 00:43:27,380 S1: it was pretty, pretty great. I think to this point 937 00:43:27,380 --> 00:43:30,620 S1: about Bobby Vee Oppenheimer, like, I love that we kind 938 00:43:30,620 --> 00:43:32,060 S1: of live in an era for both. I think, like 939 00:43:32,060 --> 00:43:35,210 S1: you said, almost, we do love like fun kind of dumb, 940 00:43:35,210 --> 00:43:38,660 S1: silly light stuff. But how great to also have a 941 00:43:38,660 --> 00:43:41,779 S1: movie that is an original story. Like it's adapted from 942 00:43:41,780 --> 00:43:44,180 S1: a book, but it's the first time we've seen a 943 00:43:44,180 --> 00:43:46,010 S1: story like this on screen. It's told in a pretty 944 00:43:46,010 --> 00:43:49,609 S1: unique way. And I think obviously Nolan, when he was 945 00:43:49,610 --> 00:43:52,640 S1: planning and writing this movie, didn't expect it to land 946 00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:56,299 S1: in the middle of a writer's strike and a actor's strike. 947 00:43:56,300 --> 00:43:59,660 S1: But I do think the politics and themes of this 948 00:43:59,660 --> 00:44:02,450 S1: film will really resonate for a lot of people, given 949 00:44:02,450 --> 00:44:04,070 S1: the conversations in Hollywood right now. 950 00:44:04,070 --> 00:44:06,200 S3: Yeah, I do as well. And I actually think Bobby 951 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:10,430 S3: and Oppenheimer, the characters both have similar missions, really. They're 952 00:44:10,430 --> 00:44:13,489 S3: both kind of reclaiming their narrative and we're kind of 953 00:44:13,489 --> 00:44:16,370 S3: going back to the past and we're reframing these figures. 954 00:44:16,370 --> 00:44:18,950 S3: So I guess Nolan and Gerwig, I think, do have 955 00:44:18,950 --> 00:44:21,710 S3: a similar project in that sense. They're about kind of 956 00:44:21,710 --> 00:44:24,290 S3: revisioning like people from the past. 957 00:44:24,350 --> 00:44:26,300 S1: And this is maybe my hottest take on it. But 958 00:44:26,300 --> 00:44:30,650 S1: whilst having some issues, as we discussed with the feminism 959 00:44:30,650 --> 00:44:34,530 S1: of the Barbie film. I thought this film like it 960 00:44:34,530 --> 00:44:38,250 S1: didn't shy away from the actual reality and the shit 961 00:44:38,250 --> 00:44:42,150 S1: conditions that women in the 50s had to live in 962 00:44:42,150 --> 00:44:44,730 S1: and deal with in America. Like, I think the movie 963 00:44:44,730 --> 00:44:47,610 S1: probably could have done a bit more with the amazing 964 00:44:47,610 --> 00:44:50,129 S1: women actors that it had, but I thought there was 965 00:44:50,130 --> 00:44:54,270 S1: like quite a lot of conversation there about how women, 966 00:44:54,270 --> 00:44:56,880 S1: even if they were smart, even if they were trained scientists, 967 00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:00,030 S1: just like could not succeed in this world and how 968 00:45:00,030 --> 00:45:03,510 S1: they were written off and destroyed by both individual men 969 00:45:03,510 --> 00:45:06,390 S1: and the structures that they operated in. Again, a bit 970 00:45:06,390 --> 00:45:08,190 S1: of a surprise. Maybe that's why I enjoyed it, because 971 00:45:08,190 --> 00:45:10,920 S1: it was not something I expected from Nolan, but was 972 00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:13,500 S1: glad to be in there when I think other directors 973 00:45:13,500 --> 00:45:16,050 S1: could have just said, Well, 90% of the Manhattan Project 974 00:45:16,050 --> 00:45:18,509 S1: was guys, so let's just pretend women don't exist. 975 00:45:18,900 --> 00:45:21,689 S3: I mean, I still think he largely pretended women didn't 976 00:45:21,690 --> 00:45:23,850 S3: exist because I think there were only like three women 977 00:45:23,850 --> 00:45:26,430 S3: the Florence Pugh, Emily Blunt, and then there was one 978 00:45:26,430 --> 00:45:29,310 S3: of the scientists was was a woman. So I still 979 00:45:29,310 --> 00:45:32,670 S3: think that they did kind of largely ignore women. 980 00:45:32,850 --> 00:45:34,890 S1: Yeah. To be honest, I haven't thought this through enough 981 00:45:34,890 --> 00:45:36,750 S1: to really go toe to toe with you on how 982 00:45:36,750 --> 00:45:39,990 S1: this is an incredible, incredibly feminist movie. 983 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:42,130 S8: I. 984 00:45:42,870 --> 00:45:46,140 S2: I also really liked, though, like we spoke kind of 985 00:45:46,140 --> 00:45:48,480 S2: about the performances and obviously the whole thing hinged on 986 00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:51,060 S2: Cillian Murphy, but I thought Rami Malek was really good. 987 00:45:51,060 --> 00:45:54,000 S2: He's so good in everything he does. And also I 988 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:55,770 S2: loved Einstein like. 989 00:45:56,489 --> 00:45:56,759 S8: He. 990 00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:57,810 S3: Was so excited. 991 00:45:59,010 --> 00:46:00,930 S1: Me too. Me too. I mean, let's just before we 992 00:46:00,930 --> 00:46:02,910 S1: get into this, let's just flag that. Let's have a 993 00:46:02,910 --> 00:46:05,279 S1: bit of a spoilery chat about some of this stuff. 994 00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:07,979 S1: But yeah, every time Einstein, I'm like, That's Einstein. There 995 00:46:07,980 --> 00:46:09,330 S1: he is just chatting away. 996 00:46:09,330 --> 00:46:11,640 S3: Thomas Like leaned over in the cinema and he's like, 997 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:14,310 S3: Is that Einstein just like it is? 998 00:46:15,450 --> 00:46:18,440 S2: That's the stuff again. I said to you, That's Einstein. 999 00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:19,779 S2: And you were like, Glug glug, glug, glug glug. 1000 00:46:19,860 --> 00:46:21,630 S8: He was so excited. But no, I. 1001 00:46:21,630 --> 00:46:23,490 S2: Thought that was a really that was like a really 1002 00:46:23,489 --> 00:46:26,310 S2: cool addition. And I liked seeing like that was, you know, 1003 00:46:26,310 --> 00:46:28,920 S2: I guess I didn't know much about their relationship, but like, 1004 00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:30,810 S2: you know, this kind of intellectual handing over and then 1005 00:46:30,810 --> 00:46:33,030 S2: he comes back in at the end and yeah, I 1006 00:46:33,030 --> 00:46:35,760 S2: thought the performances were really good. And yeah, then Rami 1007 00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:37,440 S2: Malek has a kind of big moment towards the end 1008 00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:39,029 S2: of the film and, you know, we know he's a 1009 00:46:39,030 --> 00:46:42,239 S2: great actor, but yeah, like just the casting was great 1010 00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:43,680 S2: and even people with their little moments. Yeah. 1011 00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:45,989 S1: Gary Oldman, another Oscar winner, just pops in for like 1012 00:46:45,989 --> 00:46:46,680 S1: one scene and. 1013 00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,469 S3: Sorry, is Josh Hartnett. Is he coming back? Is this 1014 00:46:49,469 --> 00:46:50,489 S3: his return? 1015 00:46:50,489 --> 00:46:52,109 S2: Well, this is the thing. Like, I mean, he gave 1016 00:46:52,110 --> 00:46:53,640 S2: one of the all time great performances in 40 days 1017 00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:57,719 S2: and 40 nights, but he was amazing in this. And like, 1018 00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:00,480 S2: who the fuck is giving Josh Hartnett work? Like Christopher 1019 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:01,860 S2: Nolan puts him in one of the biggest films of 1020 00:47:01,860 --> 00:47:03,210 S2: the year and he like, crushes it. 1021 00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:06,390 S1: We also haven't mentioned Robert Downey Jr at all, who 1022 00:47:06,390 --> 00:47:09,000 S1: is like the main antagonist who I also thought was 1023 00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:09,810 S1: like amazing. 1024 00:47:09,810 --> 00:47:11,940 S2: Yeah, but he's always good. Like Josh Hartnett, they've kind 1025 00:47:11,940 --> 00:47:13,620 S2: of like shaved them on, put him in a suit. 1026 00:47:13,620 --> 00:47:15,870 S2: He's good to go. Like, very impressive. Can we. 1027 00:47:15,870 --> 00:47:18,330 S1: Can we talk about the very end before we sort 1028 00:47:18,330 --> 00:47:21,690 S1: of wrap this conversation Because there's a weird so. Babylon 1029 00:47:21,690 --> 00:47:23,910 S1: Did you guys watch Babylon Yes, I was very much 1030 00:47:23,910 --> 00:47:25,320 S1: in the Babylon hive, right. I was one of the 1031 00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,120 S1: weirdos that thought this was an incredible movie. And I 1032 00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:30,779 S1: thought the way Babylon ended is kind of become one 1033 00:47:30,780 --> 00:47:33,600 S1: of the most influential ways to end a movie since 1034 00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:37,320 S1: it came out. It's this Spoilers for Babylon. The movie ends, 1035 00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:41,910 S1: and there's this montage of real world like cinema, just 1036 00:47:41,910 --> 00:47:45,060 S1: as like this ode to movies. There's like Avatar and 1037 00:47:45,060 --> 00:47:48,960 S1: Titanic and Terminator and all these big budget films. It's 1038 00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:52,319 S1: just literally a montage of it. Since that movie came out, 1039 00:47:52,830 --> 00:47:56,610 S1: Bobby comes out that ends in like this weird montage 1040 00:47:56,610 --> 00:47:59,160 S1: that sort of breaks the fourth wall. In a weird way, 1041 00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:04,650 S1: this film also ends with a very intense, like, terrifying montage. 1042 00:48:04,650 --> 00:48:06,300 S1: And this is the bit of the movie where, you know, 1043 00:48:06,300 --> 00:48:09,150 S1: everyone speculating about this story was like, Oh, I bet 1044 00:48:09,150 --> 00:48:12,390 S1: you when Nolan does an atomic bomb story, when they 1045 00:48:12,390 --> 00:48:16,020 S1: blow up the bomb like it destroys society, destroys the 1046 00:48:16,020 --> 00:48:19,589 S1: whole world, the universe falls apart. Practically. That isn't what 1047 00:48:19,590 --> 00:48:21,779 S1: happened in this movie. But the very end of this 1048 00:48:21,780 --> 00:48:27,060 S1: movie is killing Murphy, looking to camera and saying, Yeah, 1049 00:48:27,060 --> 00:48:29,700 S1: when we let off that bomb, we basically did destroy 1050 00:48:29,700 --> 00:48:32,219 S1: the world. And we get this montage of nuclear bombs 1051 00:48:32,219 --> 00:48:35,160 S1: going off. And then the final shot is a CGI 1052 00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:37,529 S1: or a visual effects kind of thing, with the Earth's 1053 00:48:37,530 --> 00:48:41,790 S1: atmosphere being lit on fire. It's a pretty grim but 1054 00:48:41,790 --> 00:48:44,580 S1: pretty interesting that all of these films seem to be 1055 00:48:44,580 --> 00:48:47,879 S1: like just completely zooming out of the world that they're 1056 00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:49,890 S1: in to say something to us. 1057 00:48:50,370 --> 00:48:55,200 S3: Yeah, I think they handled the reality of the bomb 1058 00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,900 S3: really well in this film. Like it was done really 1059 00:48:57,900 --> 00:49:01,109 S3: subtly and like there was the scene where they were 1060 00:49:01,110 --> 00:49:04,290 S3: kind of looking at footage of people who had been 1061 00:49:04,290 --> 00:49:07,529 S3: injured and killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and they didn't 1062 00:49:07,530 --> 00:49:09,690 S3: show the footage, but they just showed the reaction to 1063 00:49:09,690 --> 00:49:11,610 S3: the footage. And there were moments like that that I 1064 00:49:11,610 --> 00:49:14,190 S3: thought they handled really deftly. Like it could have been 1065 00:49:14,190 --> 00:49:16,770 S3: easy to, you know, show the big bomb in the 1066 00:49:16,770 --> 00:49:20,190 S3: film or, you know, show some of the disasters more literally. 1067 00:49:20,190 --> 00:49:22,260 S3: But I thought the quietness of that meant it was 1068 00:49:22,260 --> 00:49:24,420 S3: in the background because we all do know the horror 1069 00:49:24,420 --> 00:49:27,450 S3: of those bombs and we've all seen the the footage. 1070 00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:29,580 S3: So I thought it was nice that they didn't ram 1071 00:49:29,580 --> 00:49:31,320 S3: that down your throat during the film. Yeah. 1072 00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:33,440 S1: Do you think the film was a. Equivocal on this 1073 00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:35,690 S1: question of whether this was a bad thing to do, 1074 00:49:35,690 --> 00:49:38,420 S1: like I thought. So I thought the film did a 1075 00:49:38,420 --> 00:49:40,760 S1: good job of laying out all the arguments that everyone 1076 00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,820 S1: gave for this. But then pretty firmly, particularly with the 1077 00:49:43,820 --> 00:49:46,490 S1: end when Oppenheimer is like, No, no, no, Einstein, we 1078 00:49:46,489 --> 00:49:49,279 S1: fucked up. Like we totally fucked up. But I wonder 1079 00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:51,730 S1: whether that's me projecting some of my own politics on it. 1080 00:49:51,739 --> 00:49:54,469 S1: What do you guys think about the message of the film? 1081 00:49:54,469 --> 00:49:55,969 S3: Yeah, I saw it the same as you, that it 1082 00:49:55,969 --> 00:49:57,950 S3: was saying it was a bad thing. And what the 1083 00:49:57,950 --> 00:50:00,980 S3: film was trying to do was show how individuals can 1084 00:50:00,980 --> 00:50:03,710 S3: be caught up in projects, historical projects that are so 1085 00:50:03,710 --> 00:50:06,649 S3: much bigger than themselves. And there was that great moment 1086 00:50:06,650 --> 00:50:09,620 S3: where they took the bombs away from Oppenheimer, and all 1087 00:50:09,620 --> 00:50:11,540 S3: of a sudden he was no longer part of it. 1088 00:50:11,540 --> 00:50:14,630 S3: And obviously that was his moral distress that something he 1089 00:50:14,630 --> 00:50:16,700 S3: had helped create was now out of his hands. And 1090 00:50:16,700 --> 00:50:19,489 S3: what kind of role and responsibility does he have to 1091 00:50:19,489 --> 00:50:22,070 S3: take for the actions that followed? So I think that 1092 00:50:22,070 --> 00:50:24,650 S3: was its interest. But I think, yeah, overall, it was 1093 00:50:24,650 --> 00:50:27,650 S3: definitely not a celebration of of what happened. 1094 00:50:27,650 --> 00:50:28,070 S8: No. 1095 00:50:28,070 --> 00:50:30,080 S2: And you kind of do get that interrogation of like, 1096 00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:33,020 S2: you know, when people when people expect you to do 1097 00:50:33,020 --> 00:50:35,450 S2: things like the weight of expectation that falls on Oppenheimer 1098 00:50:35,450 --> 00:50:39,020 S2: because he's, you know, brilliant genius who has the capability 1099 00:50:39,020 --> 00:50:42,230 S2: to build something, you know, that will be used for 1100 00:50:42,469 --> 00:50:45,260 S2: like awful purposes. And you kind of watch how much 1101 00:50:45,260 --> 00:50:47,270 S2: that destroys him. But I loved there's a scene towards 1102 00:50:47,270 --> 00:50:50,120 S2: the end when he has an audience with President Truman 1103 00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:52,580 S2: and my favorite president after Reagan. 1104 00:50:52,580 --> 00:50:53,390 S8: And. 1105 00:50:53,660 --> 00:50:56,299 S2: And and and this is I didn't because this is 1106 00:50:56,300 --> 00:50:58,219 S2: another thing I'll add about this movie. I like Googled 1107 00:50:58,219 --> 00:51:00,620 S2: the fuck out of Oppenheimer when I got home. Yeah. 1108 00:51:00,620 --> 00:51:02,540 S2: But like, you know, that was a real meeting. And 1109 00:51:02,540 --> 00:51:04,160 S2: Truman really did get annoyed at him when he said, 1110 00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:06,020 S2: I have blood on my hands. And like, I love that. 1111 00:51:06,020 --> 00:51:08,450 S2: Truman says to him, like, no one cares about who 1112 00:51:08,450 --> 00:51:10,340 S2: built it, like they care about who dropped it. And 1113 00:51:10,340 --> 00:51:13,310 S2: that was me. And he's almost saying because he wants to. Yeah, 1114 00:51:13,310 --> 00:51:16,069 S2: he wants to go out. But yeah, like it's I 1115 00:51:16,070 --> 00:51:19,759 S2: definitely don't think there's any, you know, any conjecture about 1116 00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:24,080 S2: where you're supposed to think the morality lies. And I 1117 00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:26,690 S2: think Nolan definitely makes that point and the way it 1118 00:51:26,690 --> 00:51:31,009 S2: ends with Oppenheimer's position on it. But yeah, I thought 1119 00:51:31,010 --> 00:51:32,390 S2: it was, it was great. Like it was a great film, 1120 00:51:32,390 --> 00:51:33,500 S2: both great films, Really. 1121 00:51:34,070 --> 00:51:36,890 S1: Yeah. What I'm hearing from this conversation is Oppenheimer probably 1122 00:51:36,890 --> 00:51:39,650 S1: needed some more women, and Bobby could have done with 1123 00:51:39,650 --> 00:51:43,590 S1: more conversations about the international brigades during the Spanish Civil War. 1124 00:51:43,969 --> 00:51:45,710 S3: There was no union, Bobby, was there? 1125 00:51:45,710 --> 00:51:46,190 S8: No. 1126 00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:47,060 S1: Oh. 1127 00:51:48,950 --> 00:51:50,540 S2: We also just want to give a shout out. We 1128 00:51:50,540 --> 00:51:53,270 S2: had the film introduced by Andrew Jackson, who did the 1129 00:51:53,270 --> 00:51:55,070 S2: visual effects on the film and. 1130 00:51:55,130 --> 00:51:56,450 S1: Oh, he was like, there in your cinema. 1131 00:51:56,450 --> 00:51:58,760 S2: Yeah, he, he passed on a message from Christopher Nolan. 1132 00:51:58,910 --> 00:51:59,480 S8: He did. 1133 00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:02,630 S3: And Christopher Nolan said he hoped we all enjoyed the film. 1134 00:52:02,630 --> 00:52:04,759 S1: That's why I've actually got an interview with Andrew Jackson, 1135 00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:07,430 S1: our colleague Gary Maddox is doing for the weekend papers, 1136 00:52:07,430 --> 00:52:08,330 S1: which I'm very excited. Yeah. 1137 00:52:08,330 --> 00:52:10,100 S2: So check that out. And he seemed like a very 1138 00:52:10,100 --> 00:52:12,770 S2: nice man and the visual effects were amazing. So shout 1139 00:52:12,770 --> 00:52:13,490 S2: out to AJ. 1140 00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:19,339 S1: So now that we've seen both of these movies, I 1141 00:52:19,340 --> 00:52:21,799 S1: personally feel like a little bit sad, almost like I 1142 00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:24,650 S1: really enjoyed the hype and the buildup and the memes 1143 00:52:24,650 --> 00:52:27,770 S1: and the conversations you guys like Happy that we're in 1144 00:52:27,770 --> 00:52:30,920 S1: the kind of the post Bobby Oppenheimer landscape. Are you 1145 00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:34,340 S1: looking forward to chatting with all your friends about these films? 1146 00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:36,980 S3: Yeah, I'm really looking forward to everyone else seeing it 1147 00:52:36,980 --> 00:52:41,150 S3: and then seeing the kind of storylines that emerge more 1148 00:52:41,150 --> 00:52:43,759 S3: generally around the films. I think it's sad. It probably 1149 00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:46,130 S3: won't have a kind of moment like this. Maybe. Maybe 1150 00:52:46,130 --> 00:52:47,810 S3: towards the end of the year we'll see. I know 1151 00:52:47,810 --> 00:52:51,230 S3: there's some more great films. Challenges is out, but yeah, 1152 00:52:51,230 --> 00:52:53,299 S3: it'll be a while before we get to have this 1153 00:52:53,300 --> 00:52:57,560 S3: amount of box office gold. But I'm curious, you went, Ken. Angie, 1154 00:52:57,650 --> 00:53:00,380 S3: you've gone the blonde hair. Are you happy with what 1155 00:53:00,380 --> 00:53:02,089 S3: you've staked your kind of hair on because you could 1156 00:53:02,090 --> 00:53:04,730 S3: have gone the Oppenheimer route, but you've backed Barbie very 1157 00:53:04,730 --> 00:53:06,440 S3: like aesthetically. 1158 00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:06,770 S8: Yeah. 1159 00:53:06,770 --> 00:53:08,420 S1: I'm just thinking how I would have gone up. 1160 00:53:08,420 --> 00:53:10,339 S8: Into the hat and maybe a cigarette. Yeah. 1161 00:53:10,340 --> 00:53:13,090 S1: Yeah, I think that's not. Yeah. Less so accent. I 1162 00:53:13,130 --> 00:53:14,600 S1: have sort of dressed up with this, like, kind of 1163 00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:17,719 S1: like 50 sort of suede jacket. That was my attempt 1164 00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:19,430 S1: to sort of bridge both know, but I think I 1165 00:53:19,430 --> 00:53:21,109 S1: do feel good about it because Bobby will be seen 1166 00:53:21,110 --> 00:53:24,140 S1: by so many people, probably more than Oppenheimer, that they'll 1167 00:53:24,140 --> 00:53:26,570 S1: clock their hair. I think so I do feel I 1168 00:53:26,570 --> 00:53:28,130 S1: do feel like I've made the right call. Thank you 1169 00:53:28,130 --> 00:53:28,580 S1: for asking. 1170 00:53:28,580 --> 00:53:30,410 S2: I feel like I'll get way more chat out of 1171 00:53:30,410 --> 00:53:33,200 S2: Barbie with my friends. I feel like that'll be a 1172 00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:35,930 S2: much bigger topic of conversation than Oppenheimer. But yeah, I 1173 00:53:35,930 --> 00:53:38,330 S2: think both were great and I look forward to Oppenheimer 1174 00:53:38,330 --> 00:53:39,560 S2: two Oppie Rises. 1175 00:53:39,710 --> 00:53:45,560 S3: How do you think Oppie? Do you think unambiguously Bobby 1176 00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:47,330 S3: is going to smash it at the box office? 1177 00:53:47,330 --> 00:53:50,830 S1: Yeah, I think it will make $1,000,000,000,000 trillion, maybe not 1178 00:53:50,830 --> 00:53:54,170 S1: a trillion. My guess for the global box office in 1179 00:53:54,170 --> 00:53:58,130 S1: US dollars is 600 million. That's my prediction. Wow. You 1180 00:53:58,130 --> 00:53:58,880 S1: can hold me to that. 1181 00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:00,260 S2: I think I'm not going to make a prediction because 1182 00:54:00,260 --> 00:54:01,820 S2: I've done that before on this part. It never goes well, 1183 00:54:01,820 --> 00:54:03,620 S2: but I think Bobby will crush Oppenheimer. 1184 00:54:03,830 --> 00:54:06,290 S3: Yeah, I imagine so. And that shows in the film 1185 00:54:06,290 --> 00:54:08,750 S3: as well because it is so kind of accessible. 1186 00:54:08,750 --> 00:54:09,200 S8: Yeah. 1187 00:54:10,219 --> 00:54:13,040 S1: Awesome. Well, thank you so much, guys. I'm like I said, 1188 00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:16,820 S1: I'm a little bit sad what post Bobby and Oppenheimer Hype, 1189 00:54:16,820 --> 00:54:19,219 S1: but I'm sure we'll find many exciting things to talk 1190 00:54:19,219 --> 00:54:22,280 S1: about in the world of film, TV, music and culture. 1191 00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:24,020 S1: I don't know why I started sending so formal there, 1192 00:54:24,020 --> 00:54:24,589 S1: but I. 1193 00:54:24,590 --> 00:54:25,430 S8: Was waiting for you to be like. 1194 00:54:25,430 --> 00:54:27,469 S2: And next week we'll be doing a deep dive into 1195 00:54:27,469 --> 00:54:28,730 S2: the Nolan Back catalog. 1196 00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:31,370 S1: Ranking all of his films. We might be. That's not 1197 00:54:31,370 --> 00:54:33,560 S1: a bad idea. Yeah, we'll think about that. I look 1198 00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:35,060 S1: forward to it. Thomas Mel, thanks so much. 1199 00:54:35,060 --> 00:54:35,690 S2: It was a pleasure. 1200 00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:36,410 S3: Thank you. Was. 1201 00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:43,930 S1: This episode of The Drop was produced by Cheong. If 1202 00:54:43,930 --> 00:54:46,629 S1: you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop, make 1203 00:54:46,630 --> 00:54:49,420 S1: sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app. Leave 1204 00:54:49,420 --> 00:54:52,540 S1: us a review or better yet, share it with a friend. 1205 00:54:52,630 --> 00:54:54,850 S1: I'm Osman Farooqui. See you next week.