1 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:09,280 S1: The last day or so has been a time of 2 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:14,440 S1: madness for Donald Trump, according to many seasoned onlookers. First, 3 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,960 S1: he announced that he would impose a shipping toll on 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,000 S1: the Strait of Hormuz, something that would jack up petrol 5 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:24,480 S1: prices and spike inflation. Then he backed down, only to 6 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:28,000 S1: then threaten to take out Iranian bridges and power plants, 7 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:32,280 S1: a move that could be considered a war crime. I'm 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,520 S1: Samantha Zellinger Maurice, and you're listening to The Morning Edition 9 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,640 S1: from The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald. Today, international 10 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:44,160 S1: and political editor Peter Hartcher reports from Washington, D.C., on 11 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:48,280 S1: what might be the American president's most consequential flip flop 12 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:56,120 S1: to date. Peter, welcome back to the podcast. 13 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:57,840 S2: A pleasure, Samantha. 14 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:00,840 S1: Okay, Peter, you've got to tell us about Donald Trump's 15 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:04,910 S1: latest Escalation with the war in Iran. And then just 16 00:01:04,910 --> 00:01:09,589 S1: 45 minutes, really before recording this early on Wednesday morning, 17 00:01:09,630 --> 00:01:13,310 S1: Australian time, his back flip. What's happening? It's getting hard 18 00:01:13,310 --> 00:01:14,630 S1: to keep track of Peter. 19 00:01:15,950 --> 00:01:22,990 S2: Well, yes, this administration is very adept at the sudden escalation, 20 00:01:23,430 --> 00:01:26,790 S2: only to shrewdly de-escalate 24 hours later. 21 00:01:27,910 --> 00:01:30,149 S3: The president updating on the Strait of Hormuz, saying he 22 00:01:30,150 --> 00:01:32,830 S3: is abandoning an idea that he floated to charge a 23 00:01:32,830 --> 00:01:34,510 S3: toll for ships passing through the strait. 24 00:01:34,550 --> 00:01:38,070 S4: He said he was reversing what he said yesterday about 25 00:01:38,069 --> 00:01:41,069 S4: that threat of charging a toll for ships passing through 26 00:01:41,069 --> 00:01:42,230 S4: the Strait of Hormuz. 27 00:01:42,310 --> 00:01:47,270 S5: I just told you, you have Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, 28 00:01:47,950 --> 00:01:53,350 S5: Bahrain and Kuwait, you know, primarily and then others. They 29 00:01:53,390 --> 00:01:56,150 S5: I spoke to all of them, and they would love 30 00:01:56,150 --> 00:01:59,990 S5: to invest more money in the United States at record amounts. 31 00:02:00,310 --> 00:02:03,430 S5: And that would be very acceptable. And this way there's 32 00:02:03,430 --> 00:02:05,550 S5: no fee. I don't like the concept of a fee, 33 00:02:05,870 --> 00:02:06,350 S5: but at the. 34 00:02:06,350 --> 00:02:06,790 S6: Same time. 35 00:02:07,110 --> 00:02:10,990 S2: Ago, the president declared that the US would start imposing 36 00:02:10,990 --> 00:02:16,670 S2: a 20% fee on all shipping that emerged through the 37 00:02:16,710 --> 00:02:21,910 S2: Gulf of Hormuz and now no longer. He's withdrawn it. 38 00:02:25,310 --> 00:02:29,070 S2: When the Iranians threatened to do it three weeks ago, 39 00:02:29,470 --> 00:02:32,590 S2: it was derisively called an attempt to set up the 40 00:02:32,630 --> 00:02:37,350 S2: Tehran tollbooth, and the Americans laughed at it. Secretary of 41 00:02:37,350 --> 00:02:42,790 S2: State Marco Rubio said it's illegal to charge shipping to 42 00:02:43,030 --> 00:02:47,430 S2: put any sort of charge on shipping through a natural waterway. 43 00:02:48,310 --> 00:02:52,190 S2: It's ridiculous. No country can do that. And then three 44 00:02:52,190 --> 00:02:55,669 S2: weeks later, his own president announces the policy, you know, 45 00:02:55,750 --> 00:02:59,950 S2: full of confidence and bravado. And then 24 hours later, 46 00:03:01,150 --> 00:03:01,910 S2: it's gone. 47 00:03:03,310 --> 00:03:05,340 S1: It's quite shocking really, isn't it? I mean, you and 48 00:03:05,340 --> 00:03:09,500 S1: I were were talking right before recording that he has 49 00:03:09,500 --> 00:03:13,220 S1: had a habit, of course, of whiplashing, you know, declaring, 50 00:03:13,260 --> 00:03:18,140 S1: you know, remarkable policies or announcements and then very quickly backtracking. 51 00:03:18,139 --> 00:03:20,140 S1: But this is perhaps setting a new record, even for 52 00:03:20,139 --> 00:03:21,060 S1: Donald Trump. Yeah. 53 00:03:22,180 --> 00:03:28,500 S2: The only equivalent, uh, speed record I could find was 54 00:03:28,700 --> 00:03:33,540 S2: in February when, uh, the president appointed Elon Musk to 55 00:03:33,580 --> 00:03:37,940 S2: that so-called Doge exercise of cutting the size of the 56 00:03:37,940 --> 00:03:43,780 S2: federal bureaucracy when they sacked 180 staff members from the 57 00:03:43,780 --> 00:03:49,220 S2: Nuclear Safety Agency, the agency responsible for making sure that 58 00:03:49,220 --> 00:03:55,300 S2: all US fissile materials and missiles are stored, safely secured, 59 00:03:55,300 --> 00:04:01,780 S2: properly maintained, uh, safely, only to rehire them 24 hours 60 00:04:01,780 --> 00:04:06,770 S2: later after a series of absolutely frantic calls from Congress 61 00:04:06,770 --> 00:04:09,250 S2: members and senators who had to point out to the 62 00:04:09,250 --> 00:04:13,690 S2: administration the risk involved in what they'd done. That was 63 00:04:14,010 --> 00:04:19,810 S2: a high point of recklessness, ignorance, sort of exuberant, ideologically 64 00:04:19,810 --> 00:04:24,890 S2: driven concept that government of any kind is inherently evil. 65 00:04:25,650 --> 00:04:30,410 S2: But of course, they quickly reversed that decision, because even 66 00:04:30,850 --> 00:04:35,290 S2: Donald Trump doesn't want nuclear weapons going off in his backyard. 67 00:04:36,130 --> 00:04:38,930 S1: Okay. So tell us what led up to this, because 68 00:04:39,130 --> 00:04:42,370 S1: only very recently, the United States and Iran had signed 69 00:04:42,370 --> 00:04:46,010 S1: a memorandum of understanding. There was what they were calling 70 00:04:46,010 --> 00:04:48,770 S1: a cease fire. And then and then, of course, this. 71 00:04:48,770 --> 00:04:50,690 S1: So what's happened, Peter? 72 00:04:52,370 --> 00:04:57,090 S2: Well, it seems that Donald Trump simply grew frustrated with 73 00:04:57,089 --> 00:05:03,089 S2: his inability to negotiate a firm settlement with the Iranians 74 00:05:03,490 --> 00:05:06,650 S2: that could open the Strait of Hormuz and keep it open. 75 00:05:07,970 --> 00:05:11,210 S2: The two countries had a disagreement on the meaning of 76 00:05:11,250 --> 00:05:15,650 S2: clause five of the Memorandum of Understanding that they'd agreed to. 77 00:05:15,970 --> 00:05:19,530 S2: The Iranian said it clearly left them with responsibility for 78 00:05:19,529 --> 00:05:23,130 S2: the management of the strait, which of course was not 79 00:05:23,130 --> 00:05:26,890 S2: something that they had tried to exercise before being attacked 80 00:05:26,890 --> 00:05:29,970 S2: by Israel and the US in this war. Launched on 81 00:05:29,970 --> 00:05:33,010 S2: February 28th. But now that they've seen they can do it. 82 00:05:33,010 --> 00:05:35,690 S2: They want to hold on to that power, that leverage. 83 00:05:36,170 --> 00:05:40,730 S2: And Donald Trump insists, no, that's not what the memorandum means. 84 00:05:41,210 --> 00:05:44,210 S2: It means you're just supposed to open the strait. And 85 00:05:44,490 --> 00:05:50,210 S2: over that disagreement, the two sides have started shelling the Iranians, 86 00:05:50,210 --> 00:05:54,210 S2: shelling commercial shipping, getting trying to pass through without their permission. 87 00:05:54,610 --> 00:05:59,370 S2: And the Americans then counter shelling the Iranians. So at 88 00:05:59,370 --> 00:06:02,929 S2: the same time that he announced this 20% charge, Trump 89 00:06:02,930 --> 00:06:06,370 S2: also informed the Congress that the war was now restored 90 00:06:06,370 --> 00:06:10,440 S2: and that the negotiating period was over, but in effect, 91 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:13,520 S2: they will continue to negotiate one way or another. 92 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,000 S1: Okay, so tell us what we can, I guess, read 93 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:21,400 S1: possibly from these actions of Donald Trump. Is this announcement 94 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,360 S1: and then very quick backflip that he was going to 95 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,679 S1: charge a toll for ships entering the Strait of Hormuz. 96 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,520 S1: Is this just a sheer act of desperation? Is this 97 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,719 S1: just evidence that this war has gone completely out of 98 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:38,880 S1: Donald Trump's grasp? Uh, was he even serious with this 99 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,800 S1: threat to begin with? Because surely that wouldn't have been 100 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:43,560 S1: something that I don't even know if the United States 101 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,520 S1: could manage that actually tolling ships in the Strait of Hormuz. 102 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:50,920 S2: Well, well, that last your last thought there, uh, really 103 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:56,920 S2: is the whole reason that this is so risible. Who 104 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:01,320 S2: can take seriously now any negotiating position he offers, who 105 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,720 S2: can deal with this, who can trust or give any 106 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:10,390 S2: credibility to this leader? I mean, this is just a joke, really. 107 00:07:10,390 --> 00:07:16,630 S2: If it weren't so serious, we would be laughing out loud. Uh, look, 108 00:07:16,750 --> 00:07:22,910 S2: it was a stupid, stupid idea. Apart from anything else, uh, 109 00:07:22,990 --> 00:07:26,830 S2: by putting a 20% levy on the price of everything 110 00:07:26,830 --> 00:07:30,470 S2: coming through the Gulf of Hormuz, uh, Trump was putting 111 00:07:30,470 --> 00:07:35,350 S2: a 20% price premium on the oil, uh, flowing through 112 00:07:35,350 --> 00:07:38,190 S2: the Gulf, which would directly go onto the price of 113 00:07:38,310 --> 00:07:45,030 S2: global oil. Now, that's about 20% on the current oil price. Uh, well, 114 00:07:45,030 --> 00:07:49,110 S2: that's about 15 to 17 USD a barrel. So that 115 00:07:49,110 --> 00:07:53,510 S2: pushes up then the price of, of course, petrol and 116 00:07:53,510 --> 00:07:56,430 S2: diesel around the world, but it also pushes up inflation. 117 00:07:56,430 --> 00:07:59,270 S2: And on this very day, we had the new chairman 118 00:07:59,670 --> 00:08:02,950 S2: of the Federal Reserve testifying to the Congress to say 119 00:08:03,230 --> 00:08:06,310 S2: that the inflation problem has not been solved, and keeping 120 00:08:06,350 --> 00:08:09,270 S2: open the option of having to raise interest rates again. 121 00:08:09,750 --> 00:08:15,350 S2: So this is madness. Taming inflation is a persistent problem 122 00:08:15,950 --> 00:08:19,309 S2: in most countries, but also in the US. Trump promised 123 00:08:19,350 --> 00:08:21,270 S2: to bring prices down. Instead, he's putting them up. And 124 00:08:21,270 --> 00:08:24,270 S2: then he adds on top of that, this bizarrely bad 125 00:08:24,270 --> 00:08:28,270 S2: idea of an extra surcharge on the price. And it 126 00:08:28,270 --> 00:08:33,110 S2: would not only affect oil, it would also affect hydrogen, 127 00:08:33,110 --> 00:08:37,469 S2: it would affect fertiliser, go directly into the base input 128 00:08:37,470 --> 00:08:41,949 S2: costs for oil and for agriculture, um, flowing on around 129 00:08:41,950 --> 00:08:47,030 S2: the world. It was simply a nutty idea that he 130 00:08:47,030 --> 00:08:49,470 S2: really should never have gone near. And if there were 131 00:08:49,470 --> 00:08:53,070 S2: any proper consultation process in this government, he would never 132 00:08:53,070 --> 00:08:57,150 S2: have said it. But instead, he's embarrassed himself once again, 133 00:08:58,070 --> 00:09:01,590 S2: and he's tried to climb out of it with a 134 00:09:01,630 --> 00:09:06,910 S2: completely unsubstantiated claim that Middle Eastern countries, instead of paying 135 00:09:07,429 --> 00:09:12,590 S2: this premium, asked him instead to accept massive is his word, 136 00:09:12,590 --> 00:09:16,580 S2: with massive investments. It's frankly absurd. 137 00:09:19,620 --> 00:09:20,500 S1: After the break. 138 00:09:20,980 --> 00:09:23,380 S2: So the US is paying a high price and the 139 00:09:23,380 --> 00:09:29,580 S2: Iranians are loving extracting that price. It's encouraged. Vindicated. The 140 00:09:29,580 --> 00:09:32,540 S2: most hardline elements of the Iranian regime. 141 00:09:37,820 --> 00:09:41,340 S7: Virginia Giuffre helped vanquish a prince and a millionaire. 142 00:09:41,620 --> 00:09:44,100 S8: And I won't stop fighting. I will never be silenced. 143 00:09:44,780 --> 00:09:47,620 S7: But one of her toughest battles was a very private one. 144 00:09:48,340 --> 00:09:50,740 S9: It was the worst thing that could have happened to her. 145 00:09:50,780 --> 00:09:53,939 S9: Her children were her life. 146 00:09:55,020 --> 00:09:58,820 S7: Virginia, a podcast from the newsrooms of the age, The 147 00:09:58,820 --> 00:10:02,300 S7: Sydney Morning Herald and WA today, out now. 148 00:10:06,340 --> 00:10:07,380 S10: And so all of this, I guess. 149 00:10:07,380 --> 00:10:10,100 S1: Gives credence to what you and I and others are 150 00:10:10,100 --> 00:10:13,820 S1: hearing from military analysts overseas and around the world, really, 151 00:10:13,820 --> 00:10:17,459 S1: that Iran now has escalation dominance, right? That really it 152 00:10:17,460 --> 00:10:22,180 S1: is in control of how far this war escalates. Donald 153 00:10:22,179 --> 00:10:26,220 S1: Trump is not in control here. So given that, is 154 00:10:26,220 --> 00:10:28,860 S1: there any clear path forward for Donald Trump as to 155 00:10:28,900 --> 00:10:32,540 S1: how he could compel Iran to to end this war? 156 00:10:33,500 --> 00:10:36,380 S2: I think the popular parlance these days for that, Samantha, 157 00:10:36,380 --> 00:10:40,060 S2: is Iran holds all the cards. Um. 158 00:10:40,700 --> 00:10:44,740 S1: Yeah. As much as Donald Trump says the opposite, right. 159 00:10:44,780 --> 00:10:47,620 S1: I mean, the he's been issuing all kinds of threats 160 00:10:47,780 --> 00:10:51,099 S1: on social media, or at least he was 12 hours 161 00:10:51,100 --> 00:10:53,020 S1: before we started recording this. I think, you know, he 162 00:10:53,020 --> 00:10:55,020 S1: was sort of saying he's going to keep hitting them 163 00:10:55,260 --> 00:10:57,180 S1: and yeah, all kinds of threats. 164 00:10:58,660 --> 00:11:02,780 S2: Well, the Iranians are enjoying this position. I mean, it's 165 00:11:02,780 --> 00:11:05,380 S2: not good for their economy. It's not good for their people. 166 00:11:05,900 --> 00:11:10,460 S2: But for the regime, for the international standing, for the 167 00:11:10,460 --> 00:11:15,420 S2: legitimacy of their claim to, uh, to be defending against 168 00:11:15,490 --> 00:11:19,729 S2: the US. Uh, the Iranians are having a good time 169 00:11:20,210 --> 00:11:25,329 S2: as a middle power, defying all the might and fury. 170 00:11:25,370 --> 00:11:29,209 S2: Its so called Operation Epic Fury, which has turned into 171 00:11:29,250 --> 00:11:35,729 S2: Operation Epic fail. And the Israelis as well, uh, they're 172 00:11:35,730 --> 00:11:38,610 S2: showing that they can continue to defy the US. And 173 00:11:38,610 --> 00:11:43,170 S2: with every passing day, although the Iranian economy is getting worse, 174 00:11:43,450 --> 00:11:49,770 S2: conditions are awful and inflation continues to increase. But the 175 00:11:49,770 --> 00:11:52,370 S2: cost that the US is paying is that with each 176 00:11:52,370 --> 00:11:56,170 S2: passing day, it continues to run down its strategic oil reserve, 177 00:11:56,770 --> 00:11:59,890 S2: which is now badly depleted because it's been doing that 178 00:11:59,890 --> 00:12:02,530 S2: to try and suppress the global oil price while it 179 00:12:02,570 --> 00:12:06,890 S2: conducts this pointless war. At the same time, they're depleting 180 00:12:06,929 --> 00:12:11,650 S2: their stocks of munitions, which are dangerously low levels. Already, 181 00:12:11,970 --> 00:12:15,450 S2: the Iranians seem to be able to quickly ramp up 182 00:12:15,450 --> 00:12:19,960 S2: production of their munitions, some of which are very simple, um, 183 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:23,760 S2: fast boats with mines you can push off the back 184 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:28,479 S2: um Shahed drones, which you can assemble in your garage, 185 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:35,120 S2: their basic low cost effective and quickly replaced. Uh, and 186 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,920 S2: the whole thing in addition is weighing on Trump's political 187 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:43,359 S2: standing at home in the US with the midterm elections approaching. 188 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:46,160 S2: So the US is paying a high price and the 189 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:51,360 S2: Iranians are loving extracting that price. And it's it's encouraged 190 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:56,400 S2: vindicated the most hardline elements of the Iranian regime, whose 191 00:12:56,400 --> 00:13:00,280 S2: position politically, internally has now been strengthened immeasurably. We never 192 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,400 S2: hear any more from the the president, the civilian president. 193 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:08,200 S2: Pezeshkian we only hear from the Revolutionary Guard Corps because 194 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:12,320 S2: they're now in control. They're humiliating, uh, the country that 195 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,720 S2: they call the great Satan and Israel, which they call 196 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:17,760 S2: the little Satan, and they're loving it. 197 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:19,600 S10: And so is there any. 198 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,000 S1: Sort of indication or does this tell us anything about 199 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,640 S1: what sort of concessions Trump might be pushed to make 200 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,800 S1: to end this war with Iran? I mean, for for 201 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:33,480 S1: certainly since this began in February, since America struck Iran, 202 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:35,880 S1: you know, he's been talking about how he's going to 203 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,000 S1: get a much better deal than Obama got with the 204 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,640 S1: deal that he made with Iran. What are we seeing, 205 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:43,840 S1: I guess, out of this, in terms of what Trump 206 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:46,680 S1: might have to agree to, to finally end this? 207 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:51,240 S2: Well, in the MoU that they signed four weeks ago, 208 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:57,319 S2: they did agree that they would unfreeze various Iranian assets 209 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,200 S2: that have been frozen in bank accounts around the world. 210 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:02,719 S2: And depending on which ones you look at and how 211 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,640 S2: you define that, it could be up to 100, 100 212 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:10,040 S2: billion USD. So that's a substantial concession that the US 213 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:13,800 S2: had already made. Now that's in abeyance while things are 214 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:18,360 S2: in this mess. Now that's similar but with a larger 215 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:23,070 S2: dollar figure attached to what the Obama administration and the 216 00:14:23,070 --> 00:14:26,910 S2: other European nations in that negotiation had agreed to under 217 00:14:26,910 --> 00:14:30,630 S2: the Obama administration. But I don't know if that will 218 00:14:30,630 --> 00:14:33,430 S2: be enough anymore, because at that point, the Iranians did 219 00:14:33,430 --> 00:14:36,630 S2: not have this coercive grip on the Strait of Hormuz 220 00:14:36,630 --> 00:14:39,910 S2: and the oil flow. Now they do. So the price 221 00:14:39,910 --> 00:14:42,350 S2: presumably will have to go up. 222 00:14:43,670 --> 00:14:45,710 S10: And so, Peter, you as it happens. 223 00:14:45,710 --> 00:14:49,270 S1: You're in Washington, D.C., as we're recording this. So what 224 00:14:49,270 --> 00:14:53,390 S1: are Republicans in the U.S. saying about this latest move 225 00:14:53,390 --> 00:14:56,910 S1: of Trump's? I mean, are you hearing anything? Are they panicking, 226 00:14:56,910 --> 00:15:00,710 S1: especially in light of the fact that these midterm elections 227 00:15:00,710 --> 00:15:02,550 S1: are looming there in November? 228 00:15:03,630 --> 00:15:06,070 S2: Well, from what I've seen and heard, the. Well, we 229 00:15:06,070 --> 00:15:10,830 S2: know that the Republicans are not enjoying this dragged out war, uh, 230 00:15:10,910 --> 00:15:13,430 S2: which is now in its fifth month. And Trump said 231 00:15:13,990 --> 00:15:18,390 S2: initially would take 4 to 6 weeks when he defends it, 232 00:15:18,750 --> 00:15:22,140 S2: as he did a couple of days ago. He defended 233 00:15:22,140 --> 00:15:24,700 S2: it by comparing it to the Vietnam War. He said, oh, 234 00:15:24,740 --> 00:15:26,420 S2: that went for 20 years. This has only been going 235 00:15:26,420 --> 00:15:30,540 S2: for four months. Now, if you have to present your 236 00:15:30,660 --> 00:15:35,420 S2: war as a success only by measure against Vietnam, you 237 00:15:35,420 --> 00:15:38,740 S2: know you've really buggered it up. The Republicans, of course, 238 00:15:38,980 --> 00:15:41,940 S2: would love to see the price of petrol come back down. 239 00:15:42,460 --> 00:15:48,100 S2: They would love to see America stop humiliating itself. But interestingly, 240 00:15:48,460 --> 00:15:52,820 S2: the US media news coverage of this backdown of Trump's. 241 00:15:53,180 --> 00:15:55,460 S2: You would expect to be the top line story in 242 00:15:55,460 --> 00:15:58,540 S2: every bulletin. It's not. It's about number 2 or 3 243 00:15:58,580 --> 00:16:03,420 S2: in the news rankings at the moment here in DC. Um, 244 00:16:03,420 --> 00:16:05,100 S2: and one of the reasons for that is that the 245 00:16:05,100 --> 00:16:11,220 S2: top story is the Ice agents again murdering civilians in 246 00:16:11,220 --> 00:16:17,460 S2: the streets. That's topping the outrage and news charts. And again, 247 00:16:17,460 --> 00:16:22,620 S2: dismaying Republicans who are not enjoying Any of this. 248 00:16:24,020 --> 00:16:26,980 S1: So low level, sort of muted chaos. Is that the 249 00:16:27,020 --> 00:16:29,020 S1: sort of feeling in Washington right now? Peter. 250 00:16:29,980 --> 00:16:33,420 S2: I would I would rate Trump better than that. I 251 00:16:33,420 --> 00:16:38,220 S2: would say this is high grade, high grade and sustained chaos. 252 00:16:38,900 --> 00:16:41,500 S1: Wow. Well, thank you so much, Peter, as always for 253 00:16:41,500 --> 00:16:42,100 S1: your time. 254 00:16:42,940 --> 00:16:44,060 S2: It's a pleasure, Samantha. 255 00:16:58,300 --> 00:17:02,460 S1: Today's episode was produced by Chai Wang. Our executive producer 256 00:17:02,460 --> 00:17:05,619 S1: is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa 257 00:17:05,619 --> 00:17:09,460 S1: Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like our show, follow 258 00:17:09,460 --> 00:17:11,940 S1: The Morning Edition and leave a review for us on 259 00:17:11,940 --> 00:17:15,100 S1: Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.