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S1: Hey, I'm Osman Farooqui and this is The Drop, a

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S1: culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age,

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S1: where we dive into the latest in the world of

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S1: pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Thomas Mitchell and

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S1: Melanie Cambrai. What's going on, team? What's going on? Family?

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S2: I am. Well, Thomas is having a meltdown over printing issues.

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S3: Yes, I am. I mean, this is like a recurring

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S3: theme in my life. I just think printing is too difficult,

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S3: and I resent that we have to do it anymore.

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S3: But there's never printing is something in the office or

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S3: at home that just never goes smoothly. And it's.

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S1: Never worked. It's never been, you know, it.

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S2: Used to be a lot more difficult.

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S3: Right? But like, the context is I was trying to

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S3: print my notes for this because I'm someone who likes

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S3: to I'm quite prepared, as the audience knows, and I just,

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S3: like every single time is always like the printer doesn't work.

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S3: Or then it says it can't print or like it's

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S3: just for all the things we can do in 2023,

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S3: printing remains like the last great challenge for humanity.

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S2: Do you ever think it's user error?

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S3: Never. I really think that Dennis De Niro in the

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S3: Castle like summed up how we will all feel about

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S3: printing for eternity. Like it's just designed to do everyone's

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S3: head in.

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S2: I don't think it's that difficult.

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S1: All right. Great chat, guys. This is a great intro

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S1: to our culture podcast, but we have some exciting news

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S1: today on this show. We're introducing a brand new segment.

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S1: It's called Impress Your Friends. And every week the three

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S1: of us are going to recommend a piece of culture

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S1: that we've been enjoying. It could be a book, a

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S1: TV show, film, music, basically anything that doesn't quite warrant

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S1: the full in-depth discussion that we might have on the show,

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S1: but we still think is worth shouting out. The idea

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S1: for this came out of the fact that the three

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S1: of us, because of our jobs and the fact that

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S1: we have to and regularly do watch and consume so

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S1: much culture every week, we don't get the opportunity to

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S1: talk about as many things as we would like because

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S1: this show only comes out once a week. But to

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S1: be honest, the other reason for doing this segment is

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S1: because you guys, the listeners, these reviews keep coming in.

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S1: We've been inundated with mails, fans who want more book recommendations.

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S1: So this segment, I guess, is a way to sort

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S1: of scratch that itch too.

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S2: You should see the smile on my face. I'm so

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S2: chuffed by all the lovely The Drop listeners. It's been so,

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S2: so great seeing all the all the comments and all

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S2: the love of books. We obviously love culture here, so

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S2: it's great to see how invested our listeners are as well.

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S1: We got one which is just titled Mel is a Queen.

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S1: We got one literally yesterday that said, Great podcast helps

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S1: keep me up to date and makes me laugh, which

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S1: is much needed these days. I'm a huge supporter of

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S1: a regular and frequent book drop bit from the fabulous

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S1: Mel That's from Jess M 30 Go to say Thomas

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S1: and I are feeling like a little bit weird about this.

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S3: I am for sure like Mel before we came on

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S3: air was like we should this should be all of

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S3: our wins. My success is your success. And I was like, No,

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S3: your success is specifically my demise. I think.

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S2: Like, I think we attract, as I was saying, we

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S2: attract a very different listener.

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S3: Like where's the Thomas stands out like jump out there, guys,

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S3: get on the reviews.

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S2: You're your own biggest Thomas Dan I don't.

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S1: Know I'm with Thomas like I think it's great Mel

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S1: and I'm happy you've had your moment in the sun.

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S1: But if you listen to this pod and you like

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S1: what Thomas brings you like what I bring, feel free

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S1: to let us know. It really does make our day.

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S1: You know, the Internet, the last few years or really

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S1: the last decade, it's been this place where people are

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S1: much more willing to tell you that they hate you

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S1: and they'll email you if they really disagree with something

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S1: you've written, or they'll troll you on Twitter or Instagram.

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S1: Very rare to get nice feedback. So it really matters really,

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S1: really helps when we get it. So this is now

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S1: a desperate plea for nice feedback.

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S2: Yeah, but they could just give it to all of us.

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S2: But I think it's insane that someone leaves a nice

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S2: compliment for me. And you guys are like, Also, please

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S2: leave them for us to. We can't. I'm fragile egos.

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S3: I met Osborne and I. This is completely on brand

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S3: and I think the weirdest thing about this is that

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S3: because you do have like your special printing privileges, Mel

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S3: has printed the reviews off and put them on the desk,

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S3: which is like really a bit much and like it's

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S3: been a couple of weeks, we get it. But yeah,

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S3: so basically Mel's desk is like this kind of homage

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S3: to herself and also she's just flexing her printing muscles.

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S3: So yeah, this is what you've created a monster gun.

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S1: So that Impress your Friend segment will be something we'll

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S1: be getting into towards the end of today's episode. But

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S1: the main topic of the show this week is the

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S1: biggest story in entertainment news over the past week. It's

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S1: the rape accusations levelled against Russell Brand.

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S4: Britton Russell Brand under increasing scrutiny following allegations broadcast on

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S4: Channel four and published in The Times and The Sunday

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S4: Times accused him.

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S5: Of sexual assaults, including rape. He's been dropped by his agent,

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S5: discarded by charities, and his UK tour has been postponed.

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S1: This is a bit of a different one to the

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S1: topics we normally cover on the show. But when we

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S1: were discussing what the theme of this week's episode should be,

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S1: I think we land on it because given the role

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S1: that that Russell Brand has played in pop culture for

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S1: nearly two decades now, and the nature of the allegations,

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S1: as well as the fact that there's been so much

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S1: that has resurfaced in the past few days in terms

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S1: of inappropriate behavior from brand towards other celebrities, that everyone

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S1: just seemed to sort of bat an eyelid at at

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S1: the time. There's really a lot to discuss that goes

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S1: bigger than than Russell. It's about our kind of culpability

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S1: as a society, as an entertainment media, in building up

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S1: people like Brandon, how we respond to these kinds of

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S1: accusations in an environment that is so fragmented and polarized.

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S1: I mean, it's a big part of this story as well.

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S1: Before we get into all of that, I'm interested to

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S1: know your guys's first kind of encounters with Russell Brand

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S1: was it his comedy stuff, his movies, maybe? I know Thomas,

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S1: you're a big wellness guy. You went to his YouTube videos.

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S1: What was your first kind of Russell Brand story?

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S3: Yeah, I can just put on the record that I'm

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S3: not into his weird wellness videos, but yeah, like, I mean,

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S3: like a lot of people, I kind of came up.

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S3: I probably was like, bang on demo for him. Like,

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S3: you know, early like mid to late 2000, you know,

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S3: I was like finishing high school. And, you know, Russell

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S3: Brand was like the IT guy. He was so funny.

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S3: He was like, you know, saying things you shouldn't say.

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S3: And that was kind of his moment. And I was

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S3: very much a part of that. Lots of my friends,

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S3: I've seen Russell Brand like multiple times when he's toured Australia.

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S3: And yeah, even from like I think actually strangely my

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S3: first encounter with Russell Brand was when he appeared on

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S3: Never Mind The Buzzcocks, which is a UK show, very

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S3: popular over here, and it was him and Noel Fielding

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S3: from The Mighty Boosh, and they kind of look like

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S3: these weird twins or something. And that was kind of

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S3: before Russell had had exploded in Australia. But I had

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S3: this awareness of him. Yeah. And so I was always very,

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S3: very blown away by him. I think funnily enough, this

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S3: week as this is all unfolded, a friend of mine

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S3: who has always been so anti Russell Brand, he and

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S3: I used to butt heads about it, texted me and

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S3: he was like, See, I told you, like, this guy

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S3: has always been, you know, bad news because I was

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S3: I can, you know, now admit I was always very

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S3: blown away by like, look how many words he uses.

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S3: Look how like, eloquent he is. Look how articulate he is.

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S3: And this is when I was like young. And, you know,

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S3: I think he does he has that ability to bamboozle

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S3: and impress people. And I was always into that. Yeah.

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S3: And so back, back in the day, I was a

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S3: big Russell grind. I actually met him once in about 2009.

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S3: He toured Australia and this is kind of my only

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S3: Russell Brand encounter. But he American Russell were opening for

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S3: him and my brother was a producer on American Russell's

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S3: show and so they'd kind of crossed paths. But he

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S3: was playing at the Enmore Theatre in Newtown in Sydney,

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S3: and my brother and I were going to the show.

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S3: We were standing like at the crossing where King Street

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S3: and Moore split, and we were early for the show.

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S3: I think my brother was going down to see his

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S3: work mates who were opening and we're just waiting for

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S3: the light to turn green. And then Russell Brand just

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S3: appeared next to us by himself. And then we're both like, Oh,

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S3: that's weird. And so I was like, Hello, we're going

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S3: to see your show. And he's like, Oh, hello. Are

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S3: you excited? And and it was very I thought I

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S3: was like, again, very impressed. So I was like, This

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S3: is the guy. This is the headliner at like 530.

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S3: And he shows it like 8:00 and he's just walking

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S3: down to the theatre alone. Anyway, that's my kind of

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S3: Russell Brand origin story.

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S1: How about you, Mel? What sort of experiences or reactions

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S1: did you have to Russell Brand.

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S2: Yeah, I've never been a huge fan of his. He's

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S2: never been my cup of tea. He's kind of over

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S2: the top. Performed Eccentricity always annoyed me, but I know

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S2: how huge a deal he is in Britain and I

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S2: think that's kind of central to what's going on as well,

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S2: is that he's such a part of the popular culture

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S2: and public imagination there that it's kind of these allegations

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S2: have had a huge impact on society there. But no,

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S2: I mean, I've read some of his books, I have

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S2: to say, just out of interest. And they didn't ingratiate

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S2: him because you love.

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S1: Books so much, you're even reading an Russell Brand.

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S6: I know.

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S2: I'm going to get books in the pot. It's what

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S2: the people want. And I particularly over the last few

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S2: years when he's kind of moved more out of comedy

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S2: in Hollywood and into his own kind of universe where

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S2: he's kind of calling for revolution and telling people not

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S2: to vote in 2015. Famously, he's kind of descent into

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S2: wellness and giving self-help advice based on his own experience

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S2: of overcoming addiction. I've kind of found it a bit

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S2: off putting and not kind of grounded. You know, there's

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S2: something something about it that doesn't feel quite right.

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S1: Yeah, interesting. I was really oblivious to how big he

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S1: was in that kind of UK comedy circuit, those TV spots.

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S1: That seems very particular to Britain. They've got like these

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S1: 30 BBC or whatever comedy shows were just like men

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S1: crack jokes behind a panel. It's a really odd ecosystem.

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S1: Obviously they get syndicated here on the. ABC a lot.

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S1: I didn't really know about a lot of that until

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S1: much later on in his career. My first and really

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S1: only I guess, engagement with the work of of brand

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S1: was on forgetting Sarah Marshall and get him to the

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S1: Greek like I think forgetting Sarah Marshall is one of

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S1: the funniest movies of all time, one of the best

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S1: of that Apatow era and really, really like it. And

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S1: I thought he was like, fine in it. He's not

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S1: the reason why I like those movies. Like, I think

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S1: the rest of the movie is great, but you know,

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S1: he's different and he's interesting and he was a bit

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S1: of a surprise role in those. So I thought, Yeah, cool.

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S1: This guy and I watched the sequel Get Him to

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S1: the Greek, which was the spin off, kind of focus

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S1: entirely around him. And then I really forgot about him

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S1: until his pivot to kind of vaccine conspiracy stuff and

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S1: Covid kind of truther stuff. But it has been really

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S1: weird and fascinating to see this guy who was funny

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S1: and like on Big Brother and then on these big

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S1: Hollywood movies, just amassed millions and millions of followers by

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S1: talking about how the Deep State was like, you know,

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S1: out to get us all and sort of like a

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S1: grim reflection on on how culture works really in 2023. Yeah, it's.

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S3: Weird to go from three times shagger of the year

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S3: to then Voice of the Truth, waking up the Sheeple.

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S3: No one saw it coming. Exactly.

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S1: And Thomas, you've been covering this story for us this week.

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S1: We've talked about it a little bit, but I think

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S1: there's so much more to Russell Brand's weird career than

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S1: I realized. Can you give us a bit of a

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S1: timeline of exactly where he came from and how he

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S1: became this for a while? Really ubiquitous figure in pop culture?

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S3: Yeah, it really is interesting. And I guess if you

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S3: if you look at it, you can start to. There

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S3: are signs that kind of add up to where maybe

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S3: not where we've ended up in terms of the events

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S3: of this week but where he's ended up for sure

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S3: in the last like 6 to 12 months. Basically, you know,

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S3: Russell Brand, he was a comedian from Hackney. He dressed

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S3: exactly like a comedian from Hackney would in early 2000.

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S3: He's just gigging around 2004, kind of his breakout. He

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S3: plays this show better now at Edinburgh Fringe Festival. It

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S3: gets very well received. It's themed on his addiction issues.

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S3: So he was famously, you know, like a heroin addict.

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S3: He kicked drugs in 2002 before this time, he'd done

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S3: some work with MTV and stuff. But 2004 was kind

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S3: of his breakout. He kills it at the Edinburgh Festival

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S3: and he gets a job on like a sister show

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S3: to Big Brother, kind of like a late night show

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S3: hosting that Big.

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S7: Brother obsessive Joanna Spears mouthing innuendos while I'm trying to

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S7: do my job. And I certainly don't want to be

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S7: forced to remove John McCreery cigar stained sausage fingers off

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S7: the brand Family jewels. This is Big Brother's big mouth.

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S3: His style is a presenter, makes him kind of like

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S3: an outlier in the industry. He's he's very, you know, like,

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S3: as we said, very verbose and eloquent and quick thinking.

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S3: And and he then gets his own talk show called

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S3: One Leicester Square in 2006. And that again, it just

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S3: like launches Russell Brand into a new level of fame.

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S7: You know you seem like you'd be a good mother.

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S7: I can imagine you wearing a gingham frock and having

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S7: a rolling pin. There's all pastry. There you go. Hey.

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S8: Hi, honey.

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S9: I would love to be that. Would you? Yes, one day.

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S9: Are you a married human? Am I a married human? No. No. Good.

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S7: Oh, look at you.

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S3: Suddenly he was, like, famous, proper, famous in the UK.

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S3: And then we get to 2008, and two kind of

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S3: big things happen. One, he appears in Forgetting Sarah Marshall, which,

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S3: as you said, it was kind of his breakout role.

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S3: That movie comes out April 2008. And we should.

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S2: Say he plays the character very similar to the one

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S2: he carried on.

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S3: He plays like Elder Snow, this like rock star who's

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S3: obsessed with sex. But he was very much like not

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S3: the star of that film. So he's alongside Kristen Bell,

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S3: Jason Segel, you know, he was second tier. But the

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S3: other thing that's almost like more important is that he

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S3: hosts the VMA Awards in September, which is like even

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S3: at the time, there was like uproar in America. They

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S3: were like, Who the fuck is this guy? Yeah. And

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S3: especially looking the way Russell Brand does, it was like,

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S3: you know, it was like he was just like English

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S3: alien that, like, stumbled onto the world stage. It's a pretty.

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S1: Big get for a guy who hadn't really crossed over yet.

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S3: Massively. And he very much like Russell Brand. You know, he, he,

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S3: he made some kind of disparaging remarks about George Bush.

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S3: He told people to vote for Obama like it was.

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S3: He went full Russell Brand. But it made a big impact.

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S3: But yeah, that was kind of so I guess like 2008,

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S3: you can see is him basically becoming famous in America,

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S3: which as we all know, means you're famous everywhere. 2010

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00:14:45,340 --> 00:14:48,040
S3: he gets his own spin off from forgetting Sarah Marshall,

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S3: which is get him to the Greek alongside Jonah Hill.

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S3: Except this time he is, you know, like the main star.

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S7: Have you ever drunk absinthe, like from the 1900s?

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S10: No.

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00:15:01,030 --> 00:15:02,950
S11: Good job is to control the artist. If he's too

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S11: messed up, you hit him with this adrenaline needle, like

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S11: from Pulp Fiction.

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S3: So 2010, he's like, kind of. He's made it in America.

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S3: He's solidified as like, a bona fide star. And then

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S3: he takes it to like, the next level by doing

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S3: what makes you even more famous by marrying a pop

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S3: star in Katy Perry. So Russell Brand and Katy Perry

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S3: get together. They get engaged in India in 2010. They

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S3: married in 2011, and then the marriage only lasts 14 months.

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S3: Russell famously breaks up with her Hamill.

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S2: Via text message, which is in the Katy Perry documentary.

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S2: It's brutal, and they haven't spoken since.

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S3: And this is even worse than Burger. I'm sorry, I

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S3: can't Don't Hate Me from Sex in the City Anyway,

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S3: that last 14 months, they get divorced. And this is

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S3: kind of like where things start to get interesting. He

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S3: in 2013, he basically says, I'm quitting acting. He Hollywood

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S3: didn't really work out for brand like he had two

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S3: big hits in Forgetting Sarah Marshall and get into the

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S3: Greek but then other like Arthur which was his next

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S3: big like project that bombed. But anyway 2013 he quits

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S3: acting and this is when the kind of interesting politics

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S3: begins to bubble up. He gets edits, an issue of

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S3: The New Statesman. He releases a book called Revolution while

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00:16:07,990 --> 00:16:10,930
S3: promoting his New Statesman edition, he said this is when

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S3: he first says, like, I don't vote and I don't

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S3: think young people should vote, which causes obviously a huge

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S3: uproar in the UK. He later backflips on that 2014,

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00:16:20,380 --> 00:16:22,300
S3: he launches his own YouTube series. This is where he

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00:16:22,300 --> 00:16:24,370
S3: first kind of taps into the idea that, okay, I

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S3: can actually control my own content and send out this messaging.

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00:16:27,100 --> 00:16:29,260
S3: And like, this is someone who famously loves the sound

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S3: of his own voice. And this is the Trews.

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00:16:31,510 --> 00:16:33,790
S7: Hello there. I'm Russell Brand. This is the Trews where

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00:16:33,790 --> 00:16:37,180
S7: I go through the news, but in a more truthful way, i.e.

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S7: the truth. Let's have a look at what's going on

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S7: in the Daily Mail. Daily Mail takes itself a little

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00:16:40,900 --> 00:16:45,850
S7: bit more seriously in today's sort of phallic crimson box.

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S7: Should you use hand cream on your face? So again.

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S3: We're seeing the seeds of like the true news, like

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S3: I've got what they're not telling you kind of vibe.

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S1: It's pretty early 2014 for that sort of a thing.

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S1: Like I feel like we have so many of these

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S1: guys now, but he was pretty like pioneering, I guess,

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S1: in building his own channel.

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S3: But even yeah, but even at this time, we're seeing

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S3: like the seeds of like I think in the book

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S3: Revolution when he was doing the rounds to promote that

356
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S3: this is 2013, he was like very openly talking about

357
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S3: how 911 was possibly a conspiracy, right? So like and.

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S2: He was almost championing and I know in that book

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S2: he does this a kind of anarchy to him. Exactly.

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S2: That he's celebrating.

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00:17:21,250 --> 00:17:23,169
S3: And then and then kind of like you can almost

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00:17:23,170 --> 00:17:25,960
S3: like the years from 2014 to 2020 have really just

363
00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,780
S3: seen this like snowballing effect. And there's one thing that's

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00:17:28,780 --> 00:17:31,540
S3: really interesting is that I think, you know, Brand calls

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S3: himself a narcissist all the time. And, you know, he's

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S3: now existing on YouTube with the Trews. But of course,

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S3: we all know that like it's these conservative talking points,

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S3: these right wing ideas that really get the most likes

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S3: and shares. And I mean, he obviously then begins to

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S3: feed off that. And really the pandemic proved a flashpoint

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S3: where he began to really lean into that side of things.

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S7: How are you feeling? About your government and leadership at

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S7: this time, in a sense, crisis and fear. Don't they

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00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,810
S7: sort of make you want to really blindly believe in

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S7: authority so that you don't have to think anymore, but

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00:18:06,150 --> 00:18:07,920
S7: don't you, in the back of your mind think, I

377
00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,609
S7: can't trust this authority? Already we were experiencing a time

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00:18:11,609 --> 00:18:14,960
S7: where authoritarian leaders were rising to problem.

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S3: And really started to lean into this. Like, you know,

380
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S3: what is mainstream media doing? And basically that brings us

381
00:18:20,850 --> 00:18:24,360
S3: to where we are now. He has a weekly show

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00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,990
S3: on Rumble and on YouTube he's got over 6.6 million

383
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S3: subscribers on YouTube. He doesn't really exist in the mainstream media,

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00:18:31,109 --> 00:18:33,330
S3: and that's basically where he's been. You know, people like

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00:18:33,330 --> 00:18:36,330
S3: Tucker Carlson, Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, their regular guest on

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S3: his YouTube channel, and he's just kind of been existing

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00:18:38,670 --> 00:18:41,879
S3: in that world for the last like 18 to 24 months.

388
00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,300
S3: And of course, this week, everything blows up. These allegations

389
00:18:45,300 --> 00:18:47,010
S3: are made as a result of the Sunday Times and

390
00:18:47,010 --> 00:18:50,010
S3: Dispatches documentary. And the last time we really hear from

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00:18:50,010 --> 00:18:52,469
S3: Russell is when he goes on his own channel to

392
00:18:52,470 --> 00:18:54,480
S3: to basically denial these allegations.

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S7: But amidst this litany of astonishing, rather baroque attacks are

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00:18:59,490 --> 00:19:05,730
S7: some very serious allegations that I absolutely refute. These allegations

395
00:19:05,730 --> 00:19:07,859
S7: pertain to the time when I was working in the mainstream,

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00:19:07,859 --> 00:19:09,479
S7: when I was in the newspapers all the time, when

397
00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:11,520
S7: I was in the movies. And as I've written about

398
00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,940
S7: extensively in my books, I was very, very promiscuous. Now,

399
00:19:14,940 --> 00:19:18,000
S7: during that time of promiscuity, the relationships I had were

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00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,640
S7: absolutely always consensual. I was always.

401
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,129
S3: Transparent and tell his followers that this seems like a

402
00:19:23,130 --> 00:19:26,100
S3: coordinated attack from mainstream media. And that's kind of, I guess,

403
00:19:26,100 --> 00:19:29,010
S3: the summarized version of like the Hackney comedian who ended

404
00:19:29,010 --> 00:19:31,830
S3: up as a YouTube conspiracy truther. Well, that.

405
00:19:31,830 --> 00:19:35,820
S1: Is an amazingly succinct and extremely impressive timeline. Thomas Mitchell

406
00:19:35,820 --> 00:19:38,190
S1: well done. Thank you. So as you said, that brings

407
00:19:38,190 --> 00:19:41,100
S1: us to to the last weekend where the Times in

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00:19:41,100 --> 00:19:45,119
S1: the U.K. and Channel four published this joint investigation that

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00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:49,470
S1: involves numerous women accusing him of rape and sexual harassment. Mel,

410
00:19:49,470 --> 00:19:52,440
S1: can you give us a bit of a summary of

411
00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,430
S1: what is actually being alleged in terms of Brant?

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00:19:56,430 --> 00:19:59,310
S2: Yes. So at the heart of the investigation are four

413
00:19:59,310 --> 00:20:02,820
S2: women who have spoken out saying that brand raped, sexually

414
00:20:02,820 --> 00:20:08,340
S2: assaulted or emotionally abused them between 2006 and 2013. And

415
00:20:08,340 --> 00:20:11,160
S2: these allegations were published by The Sunday Times, The Times

416
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,160
S2: and the Dispatch program, who have been working on it

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00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,770
S2: for some years together. And they've spoken to a whole

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00:20:16,770 --> 00:20:20,460
S2: host of other people who have painted a picture of

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00:20:20,460 --> 00:20:24,540
S2: an abusive man. The kind of key allegations are a

420
00:20:24,540 --> 00:20:27,240
S2: 16 year old who alleges she had a relationship with

421
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,870
S2: Brand when he was 30 and then on BBC and

422
00:20:30,869 --> 00:20:37,290
S2: on TV relationship that was abusive and unhealthy. There's a

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00:20:37,290 --> 00:20:40,350
S2: woman who alleges that brand raped her in 2012 at

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00:20:40,350 --> 00:20:43,590
S2: his LA home. He invited her over and into the bedroom,

425
00:20:43,590 --> 00:20:45,660
S2: saying he had a friend in there when she tried

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00:20:45,660 --> 00:20:48,000
S2: to leave. She alleges he pushed her up against a

427
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,300
S2: wall and raped her. There are text messages between the

428
00:20:51,300 --> 00:20:54,240
S2: pair that came later that night where he apologizes for

429
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,090
S2: his behavior and she was treated at a rape treatment

430
00:20:57,090 --> 00:21:01,200
S2: center the same day. The other allegations include a worker

431
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,239
S2: at Channel four who said he exposed his penis to

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00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:05,970
S2: her in the dressing room and a woman who in

433
00:21:05,970 --> 00:21:08,250
S2: 2013 was working with him and said he tried to

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00:21:08,250 --> 00:21:10,320
S2: kiss her and removed her clothes, pinned her down, and

435
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,340
S2: she screamed before he he let her go and met police.

436
00:21:14,340 --> 00:21:16,649
S2: Since these stories have come out, said they have received

437
00:21:16,650 --> 00:21:19,980
S2: a complaint of sexual assault in 2003 as well.

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S1: I think those reports are really worth reading in full

439
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,460
S1: because a lot of really impressive journalism went into them.

440
00:21:26,460 --> 00:21:28,980
S1: And even though other outlets have kind of covered the

441
00:21:28,980 --> 00:21:31,860
S1: top line stuff, you really get a sense of just

442
00:21:31,859 --> 00:21:34,800
S1: how much information and detail and evidence there is when

443
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,610
S1: you read those stories. There's also a really great Times podcasts,

444
00:21:38,609 --> 00:21:40,680
S1: about 30 minutes long that goes into them, and the

445
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:44,670
S1: Channel four doco is available on line two. At this point,

446
00:21:44,670 --> 00:21:47,280
S1: I think it's important and legally necessary to say that

447
00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:51,660
S1: Russell Brand denies all of those allegations. He says that

448
00:21:51,660 --> 00:21:55,320
S1: all of his relationships have been consensual. And he released

449
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,530
S1: this video where he implies that this is all about

450
00:21:58,530 --> 00:22:02,220
S1: some kind of conspiracy from unknown shadowy forces who were

451
00:22:02,220 --> 00:22:04,680
S1: trying to take him down because he's getting close, to

452
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:09,899
S1: quote the truth. I think there's a couple of different

453
00:22:09,900 --> 00:22:13,830
S1: things to untangle at this point about what these allegations

454
00:22:14,369 --> 00:22:17,280
S1: kind of say about Russell Brand, but also about the

455
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,489
S1: way that we talk about celebrity and the kind of

456
00:22:20,490 --> 00:22:24,720
S1: culture that I guess was fostered over the past couple

457
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,540
S1: of decades, particularly in the U.K., But like, to be honest,

458
00:22:27,540 --> 00:22:32,010
S1: across the world, including here in Australia, I think the

459
00:22:32,010 --> 00:22:35,010
S1: first thing that's worth getting into is this mountain of

460
00:22:35,010 --> 00:22:38,340
S1: stuff that has come out about brands since these allegations emerged.

461
00:22:38,340 --> 00:22:40,500
S1: And this is all stuff that was on the record

462
00:22:40,500 --> 00:22:43,440
S1: at the time, going back to like the early 2000,

463
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:47,220
S1: but it just didn't get the traction that it deserved

464
00:22:47,220 --> 00:22:51,420
S1: in terms of Russell Brand on camera, on Mike saying

465
00:22:51,420 --> 00:22:55,400
S1: and doing terrible things to. Women that seemed to just

466
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:59,390
S1: kind of feed not just his ego, but this sort

467
00:22:59,390 --> 00:23:02,240
S1: of sense of bran as this cheeky guy who's just

468
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,050
S1: charming and women can't get enough of him. That a very, very,

469
00:23:06,050 --> 00:23:08,690
S1: very hard to kind of read and look at now

470
00:23:08,690 --> 00:23:12,290
S1: with not just the lens of the accusations against Bran,

471
00:23:12,290 --> 00:23:16,520
S1: but just our own standards as a society in 2023

472
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:20,419
S1: versus 2003. Thomas, can you talk us through some of

473
00:23:20,420 --> 00:23:23,990
S1: the stuff that has been resurfaced?

474
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:29,030
S3: Yeah, obviously, like, you know, what's happened, what's what's come

475
00:23:29,030 --> 00:23:32,090
S3: to the fore has then led to like a reexamination

476
00:23:32,090 --> 00:23:34,699
S3: of some of these interviews. And I think what's interesting

477
00:23:34,700 --> 00:23:37,130
S3: is obviously Brad was a figure in the media, like

478
00:23:37,130 --> 00:23:39,380
S3: both as an interviewer for a long time in the UK,

479
00:23:39,380 --> 00:23:42,020
S3: like as a broadcaster. And then when he became super famous,

480
00:23:42,020 --> 00:23:44,119
S3: he was, you know, obviously coming out to Australia and

481
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:46,970
S3: doing promotional trips and doing a lot of press. And,

482
00:23:46,970 --> 00:23:50,240
S3: you know, really for organizations, brand was like the ideal

483
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,480
S3: talent because he was like completely unpredictable. But some of

484
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:55,910
S3: the stuff that's really like resurfaced this week that people

485
00:23:55,910 --> 00:23:58,340
S3: are casting an eye over. One is from like and

486
00:23:58,340 --> 00:24:01,460
S3: this is going back to 2006, an interview with our

487
00:24:01,460 --> 00:24:04,880
S3: very own Dannii Minogue. She spoke with the UK publication

488
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,600
S3: in The Mirror, basically talking about an appearance on Russell

489
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,060
S3: Brand's chat show one Leicester Square that we mentioned earlier.

490
00:24:11,060 --> 00:24:13,430
S3: So she was there to promote an album, the Hits

491
00:24:13,430 --> 00:24:17,240
S3: and beyond, and Russell was interviewing her and she told

492
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:19,639
S3: The Mirror basically, I mean, I guess the most damning

493
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,220
S3: thing is that she called him a vile predator. She said,

494
00:24:22,220 --> 00:24:24,320
S3: I certainly don't think he has cured his sex addiction,

495
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,630
S3: that's for sure. He wouldn't take no for an answer.

496
00:24:26,810 --> 00:24:29,150
S3: And with the lens of what we're going through now,

497
00:24:29,150 --> 00:24:31,700
S3: it seems like, you know, this is not just like, oh,

498
00:24:31,700 --> 00:24:33,860
S3: he was a bit naughty. Like she's saying that he

499
00:24:33,859 --> 00:24:36,080
S3: really made her feel uncomfortable. But this it wasn't like

500
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,739
S3: this interview triggered a wave of Russell Brand response or

501
00:24:39,740 --> 00:24:41,840
S3: anything like that. It just kind of like floated off

502
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,480
S3: into the ether. She goes on to say throughout the

503
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,520
S3: whole interview, he kept making shocking remarks that I can't

504
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:48,710
S3: even repeat. Just uttering the words would make me blush.

505
00:24:48,710 --> 00:24:50,629
S3: And again, this is not like, oh, he was a

506
00:24:50,630 --> 00:24:52,250
S3: bit cheeky, he was a bit naughty. Like this is

507
00:24:52,250 --> 00:24:55,129
S3: her saying like, I can't even repeat what he said.

508
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,160
S3: So that's something that, you know, pretty quickly this week

509
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,770
S3: bubbled back to the surface. I reached out to Dannii

510
00:25:00,770 --> 00:25:02,959
S3: Minogue people in order to have a chat to her

511
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,840
S3: about it, but she's overseas working and didn't want to

512
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,570
S3: talk about it. Now, the next one that people have

513
00:25:08,570 --> 00:25:11,960
S3: been looking at in 2010, Russell Brand. Russell Brand actually

514
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,870
S3: came to Australia in 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012.

515
00:25:14,869 --> 00:25:17,060
S1: Wow. Four trips in four years. That's extraordinary.

516
00:25:17,060 --> 00:25:19,129
S3: Yeah. So he liked Australia three of those years, but

517
00:25:19,130 --> 00:25:21,560
S3: two and 1 in 2010 was like a promotional tour

518
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:23,810
S3: for Get Him to the Greek. One of his interviews

519
00:25:23,810 --> 00:25:27,260
S3: was for Sunrise. At the time Fifi Box was presenting

520
00:25:27,260 --> 00:25:30,020
S3: on the show, and they've kind of like now a

521
00:25:30,020 --> 00:25:34,609
S3: bit of an infamous on the Internet interview where basically,

522
00:25:34,609 --> 00:25:37,160
S3: you know, he he sits on her lap. He makes

523
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,860
S3: a joke about how her laughing sounds like her, what

524
00:25:39,859 --> 00:25:42,710
S3: she might sound like when she orgasms. And then he

525
00:25:42,710 --> 00:25:44,330
S3: the interview ends with him like sitting on her lap

526
00:25:44,330 --> 00:25:45,900
S3: and kissing her everything.

527
00:25:46,070 --> 00:25:47,280
S8: I want to know. I want to know.

528
00:25:47,390 --> 00:25:48,350
S7: It's come over there to, you.

529
00:25:48,350 --> 00:25:52,639
UU: Know, it's like, oh, well.

530
00:25:53,810 --> 00:25:55,450
S12: I know, babe.

531
00:25:55,490 --> 00:25:58,219
S13: We brought Dan, Dan, Dan.

532
00:25:58,580 --> 00:26:02,810
S12: Come on. Oh, my God. It's kissing me. Oh, well, okay.

533
00:26:02,810 --> 00:26:03,979
S7: Everything's okay, isn't it?

534
00:26:03,980 --> 00:26:05,410
S12: Yes, you're very clear.

535
00:26:05,420 --> 00:26:06,200
S7: A lot of heat.

536
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:07,530
S8: I know. Because you're quite.

537
00:26:07,550 --> 00:26:11,450
S3: Handsome. Sunrise. To this day, you can't access the interview

538
00:26:11,450 --> 00:26:14,450
S3: on their website. It never went to air, but it's on. Strangely,

539
00:26:14,450 --> 00:26:16,690
S3: it's on their YouTube channel with a note that says like,

540
00:26:16,700 --> 00:26:18,590
S3: this was not fit for broadcast, but.

541
00:26:18,590 --> 00:26:20,600
S1: We'll put it on YouTube and we'll make money off it. Yeah.

542
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,230
S3: Exactly. And it's got like a shitload of views in

543
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,390
S3: like a 2015 interview box would say that the experience

544
00:26:26,390 --> 00:26:28,340
S3: was a very strange encounter. By the end of the interview,

545
00:26:28,340 --> 00:26:30,979
S3: he was straddling me, grinding me inappropriately and trying to

546
00:26:30,980 --> 00:26:34,520
S3: kiss me. But again, the general public response to a

547
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,670
S3: lot of the brand interviews like I think similar thing

548
00:26:37,670 --> 00:26:40,310
S3: with Sam Armitage also, he famously did like a 60

549
00:26:40,310 --> 00:26:42,080
S3: Minutes interview with Liz Hayes, where he kissed her at

550
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,570
S3: the end like unprompted. And you can watch Liz Hayes,

551
00:26:44,570 --> 00:26:47,570
S3: like kind of like visibly recoil.

552
00:26:48,100 --> 00:26:50,800
S7: See you like this. All right.

553
00:26:50,810 --> 00:26:54,139
S14: It's okay, Russell. I can undo your bra just like this.

554
00:26:56,410 --> 00:26:57,380
S12: Because I loved you.

555
00:26:57,380 --> 00:26:59,850
S3: And again, her response to it, like, later on was like, oh,

556
00:26:59,869 --> 00:27:01,699
S3: you know, well, it's Russell Brand, and you kind of

557
00:27:01,700 --> 00:27:03,650
S3: never know what you're going to expect. And that was

558
00:27:03,650 --> 00:27:05,600
S3: like it wasn't it wasn't people weren't up in arms

559
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,060
S3: about this interview at the time. And then perhaps the

560
00:27:08,060 --> 00:27:11,750
S3: most interesting, I guess, thing that's coming back this week

561
00:27:11,750 --> 00:27:15,379
S3: is an interview that Katy Perry gave with Vogue in 2013,

562
00:27:15,380 --> 00:27:20,000
S3: like following their divorce. So, you know, typically people don't

563
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:21,950
S3: do these have a big sit downs. But they Katy

564
00:27:21,950 --> 00:27:25,580
S3: Perry did it with Vogue. And in reference to her ex-husband,

565
00:27:25,580 --> 00:27:28,609
S3: Russell Brand, she described his behavior as very controlling. But

566
00:27:28,609 --> 00:27:30,859
S3: the thing people are most obsessed with on the Internet

567
00:27:30,859 --> 00:27:33,410
S3: is that she alluded to something as a real truth

568
00:27:33,410 --> 00:27:36,410
S3: about brand that she would not disclose. In fact, she said,

569
00:27:36,410 --> 00:27:38,540
S3: I will keep it locked in my safe for a

570
00:27:38,540 --> 00:27:41,479
S3: rainy day. So people have been kind of like obsessed

571
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:43,369
S3: with finding out, like, what is this real truth that

572
00:27:43,369 --> 00:27:45,350
S3: Katy Perry happens to know about Russell Brand? But I

573
00:27:45,350 --> 00:27:47,930
S3: guess they're a snapshot of like what has been coming

574
00:27:47,930 --> 00:27:50,119
S3: back this week in the light of the new allegations.

575
00:27:50,450 --> 00:27:52,460
S1: And I guess the thing that that raises is like,

576
00:27:52,460 --> 00:27:57,980
S1: what does this take? About brand, but also what culture

577
00:27:57,980 --> 00:28:02,510
S1: and society and how our treatment of women like operated

578
00:28:02,510 --> 00:28:06,380
S1: back in 2006. It seems extraordinary that someone like Dannii

579
00:28:06,380 --> 00:28:08,030
S1: Minogue would come out and say, This guy is a

580
00:28:08,030 --> 00:28:11,030
S1: vile predator and that would be reported by a tabloid

581
00:28:11,030 --> 00:28:14,419
S1: newspaper and not spark anything else. And I think it

582
00:28:14,420 --> 00:28:18,590
S1: feels really incongruous, but I think it is what to

583
00:28:18,590 --> 00:28:22,700
S1: me stands out is like how significant a shift we've

584
00:28:22,700 --> 00:28:26,540
S1: gone through since MeToo and the Weinstein allegations in 2017.

585
00:28:26,540 --> 00:28:30,260
S1: Like you, almost the day before the Weinstein allegations, we

586
00:28:30,260 --> 00:28:33,230
S1: were living in an entirely different world where these sorts

587
00:28:33,230 --> 00:28:35,930
S1: of things were happening, like every so often, where some

588
00:28:35,930 --> 00:28:38,810
S1: woman would give some interview and say, This guy's pretty bad,

589
00:28:38,810 --> 00:28:40,970
S1: this guy's done some bad stuff to us. It would

590
00:28:40,970 --> 00:28:44,330
S1: not really be covered or taken that seriously, by and large.

591
00:28:44,330 --> 00:28:47,240
S1: And I think that's evidenced by the litany of things

592
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:51,770
S1: that Thomas has just described about this one guy, Russell Brand. And,

593
00:28:51,830 --> 00:28:54,470
S1: you know, obviously we do not live in a perfect

594
00:28:54,470 --> 00:28:58,160
S1: society and MeToo and the Weinstein story didn't magically fix

595
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,430
S1: everything when it came to the power relationship between men

596
00:29:01,430 --> 00:29:05,390
S1: and women. But it does seem much more likely now

597
00:29:05,390 --> 00:29:08,570
S1: that if someone like Danny Minogue or Katy Perry or,

598
00:29:08,930 --> 00:29:11,180
S1: you know, that behaviour that he displayed with 50 bucks

599
00:29:11,180 --> 00:29:13,640
S1: and Sam Armitage, if that was to happen now, it

600
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,840
S1: would trigger investigations. And I guess that is being evidenced

601
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,260
S1: by what literally is happening this week after the Sunday

602
00:29:21,260 --> 00:29:23,690
S1: Times stuff. But Mel, I mean, like when you were

603
00:29:23,690 --> 00:29:26,990
S1: reading about this stuff, when you were hearing Thomas go

604
00:29:26,990 --> 00:29:30,170
S1: through it, we weren't working in this industry then, but

605
00:29:30,170 --> 00:29:32,990
S1: we were, you know, around we cared about this stuff.

606
00:29:32,990 --> 00:29:35,660
S1: How does it make you feel or what's your reaction

607
00:29:35,660 --> 00:29:38,360
S1: knowing that that's just what that was like? Does that

608
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:40,490
S1: feel familiar to you or you just sort of forgotten

609
00:29:40,490 --> 00:29:43,880
S1: that that was the ecosystem we operated in culturally?

610
00:29:44,150 --> 00:29:46,790
S2: I mean, it is scary because it's not that long ago,

611
00:29:46,790 --> 00:29:49,880
S2: but I do think obviously since post MeToo, there was

612
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,030
S2: a real reckoning that this behavior that we kind of

613
00:29:53,030 --> 00:29:55,550
S2: treated as a joke and we were all complicit in

614
00:29:55,550 --> 00:29:57,440
S2: like there was a reason they got him on the

615
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,110
S2: show and that they paired him with female reporters and

616
00:30:00,110 --> 00:30:02,750
S2: female talent. And that was because they did want something

617
00:30:02,750 --> 00:30:05,030
S2: like this to happen because it was good content. I

618
00:30:05,030 --> 00:30:08,180
S2: think what we treated as a joke we now accept

619
00:30:08,180 --> 00:30:10,850
S2: is actually for a long time women has seen have

620
00:30:10,850 --> 00:30:14,810
S2: seen as harmful predatory behavior that makes them feel uncomfortable.

621
00:30:14,810 --> 00:30:18,740
S2: And I think me, too, kind of forced that reckoning

622
00:30:19,130 --> 00:30:21,860
S2: in a way that I don't think we had seen before.

623
00:30:21,860 --> 00:30:23,630
S2: And I also do think in the UK that the

624
00:30:23,630 --> 00:30:28,940
S2: Jimmy Savile trial was huge over there and really made

625
00:30:28,940 --> 00:30:33,890
S2: the UK media look at their own complicity in abuse.

626
00:30:33,890 --> 00:30:36,440
S2: And I think, yes, I was saying before, I do

627
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,110
S2: think there is something specific about the UK going on

628
00:30:39,110 --> 00:30:42,140
S2: here to and looking at its own complicity in these

629
00:30:42,140 --> 00:30:43,400
S2: kinds of cases.

630
00:30:52,620 --> 00:30:54,990
S1: Yeah. And it's not just the tabloids. Like there was

631
00:30:54,990 --> 00:30:58,380
S1: this other scandal around that time called Sex Gate in

632
00:30:58,380 --> 00:31:01,590
S1: the U.K. where Russell Brand and Jonathan Ross had this

633
00:31:01,590 --> 00:31:05,340
S1: show on the BBC, BBC Radio, and there was this particular,

634
00:31:05,340 --> 00:31:09,780
S1: you know, issue or event where Russell Brand was allegedly

635
00:31:09,780 --> 00:31:13,380
S1: having consensual sex with this woman who was the granddaughter

636
00:31:13,380 --> 00:31:16,800
S1: of the British actor Andrew Sachs, who played Manuel on

637
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,550
S1: Fawlty Towers. And Jonathan Ross and Russell Brand would just

638
00:31:20,550 --> 00:31:24,360
S1: leave voicemails on sex phone about how Russell Brand had

639
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,850
S1: slept with his granddaughter and they would just play them

640
00:31:26,850 --> 00:31:29,760
S1: on air. And that was like investigated by the BBC.

641
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:31,890
S1: And they're like, Oh, that they went a bit too far.

642
00:31:31,890 --> 00:31:35,010
S1: But it didn't damage his career at all. It just

643
00:31:35,010 --> 00:31:39,420
S1: felt like the entire media ecosystem, whether that was TV

644
00:31:39,420 --> 00:31:41,700
S1: producers here at the time, as you guys have mentioned,

645
00:31:41,700 --> 00:31:45,870
S1: the BBC, the tabloids, they would just kind of happy

646
00:31:45,870 --> 00:31:48,510
S1: to to let this stuff happen because he's a cheeky

647
00:31:48,510 --> 00:31:52,020
S1: lad and this is what gets views and clicks or whatever.

648
00:31:52,050 --> 00:31:56,010
S3: Yeah, it's definitely like looking back at, for instance, I

649
00:31:56,010 --> 00:32:00,390
S3: say 50 bucks. He kissed 50 bucks. He kissed Liz Hayes.

650
00:32:00,390 --> 00:32:02,070
S3: And like, you know, obviously this year we've seen a

651
00:32:02,070 --> 00:32:05,100
S3: major moment at the in the FIFA Women's World Cup

652
00:32:05,100 --> 00:32:09,360
S3: final about centred around a kiss and unprompted kiss. And

653
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,000
S3: it's been like basically led to the downfall of the

654
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,850
S3: head of women's football in Spain and and the public

655
00:32:14,850 --> 00:32:17,790
S3: response to it has been very telling as to how

656
00:32:17,790 --> 00:32:18,540
S3: different things are.

657
00:32:18,540 --> 00:32:20,700
S1: Now, the prime minister, the deputy prime minister in Spain

658
00:32:20,700 --> 00:32:22,500
S1: have weighed in on this thing. It's just such an

659
00:32:22,500 --> 00:32:24,430
S1: interesting example of how different things are.

660
00:32:24,450 --> 00:32:27,300
S3: Yeah, and I know Russell Brand at the time was like,

661
00:32:27,300 --> 00:32:30,180
S3: you know, different to the head of Spanish football and

662
00:32:30,180 --> 00:32:33,120
S3: that he was a famous celebrity. But, you know, the

663
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,800
S3: two different public responses are kind of like, really tell

664
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:37,050
S3: the story. Yeah.

665
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,360
S2: Because I mean, we the media, the people lapped up

666
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,330
S2: that persona. We you mentioned the Sun gave him Shagger

667
00:32:42,330 --> 00:32:45,390
S2: of the Year award, you know, three times in a row.

668
00:32:45,390 --> 00:32:47,220
S3: Yeah. But then I don't think like and this is

669
00:32:47,220 --> 00:32:48,989
S3: where I find it a little bit interesting because I

670
00:32:48,990 --> 00:32:52,200
S3: don't think firstly I would say that we, we're not

671
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,690
S3: out of love with the cheeky Lothario. Like there are

672
00:32:54,690 --> 00:32:56,910
S3: plenty of examples where we still like, you know, even

673
00:32:56,910 --> 00:32:59,960
S3: someone like DiCaprio, who is known to be, you know,

674
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,390
S3: a famous womanizer, he's famous for like having young girlfriends

675
00:33:03,390 --> 00:33:05,250
S3: and being really attractive and never saying something for long.

676
00:33:05,250 --> 00:33:07,140
S3: And he's different to Russell Brand, but it's not like

677
00:33:07,140 --> 00:33:11,820
S3: we're totally out of love with this, like, archetype completely. And,

678
00:33:11,820 --> 00:33:14,790
S3: you know, so we can't pretend like we've come so

679
00:33:14,790 --> 00:33:15,800
S3: far from that.

680
00:33:15,810 --> 00:33:17,250
S1: I think that's a really good point. I think I

681
00:33:17,250 --> 00:33:19,590
S1: think it's really important that, you know, looking at these

682
00:33:19,590 --> 00:33:21,990
S1: things with this lens and us being of a different

683
00:33:21,990 --> 00:33:25,650
S1: generation to the kinds of TV or radio people or

684
00:33:25,650 --> 00:33:28,800
S1: tabloid people in the mid 2000 who created and fostered

685
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,430
S1: that that latte culture, particularly in the UK, we're, you know,

686
00:33:32,460 --> 00:33:35,010
S1: we're probably all making mistakes now and not picking up

687
00:33:35,010 --> 00:33:36,840
S1: on things that we should be. I think Leo is

688
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,500
S1: a really interesting example. Obviously, you know, no, no allegations

689
00:33:40,500 --> 00:33:42,900
S1: of sexual assault or anything that would. Leo But you know,

690
00:33:42,900 --> 00:33:46,950
S1: just this conversation around men with celebrity power and how

691
00:33:46,950 --> 00:33:49,860
S1: they treat women, it's not like we've fixed that. I

692
00:33:49,860 --> 00:33:52,680
S1: think Drake is another interesting example and there have been

693
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:54,780
S1: these things that pop up every now and then. Drake

694
00:33:54,780 --> 00:33:57,959
S1: And like quite young women at his shows. But I

695
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,140
S1: feel like this this is an interesting and complicated thing

696
00:34:01,140 --> 00:34:04,740
S1: to talk about because it feels like the issue here

697
00:34:04,740 --> 00:34:08,759
S1: isn't that Russell Brand was known for being in lots

698
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,180
S1: of sexual relationships, right? He's famously bragged to one of

699
00:34:12,180 --> 00:34:14,460
S1: our reporters, Michael Allo, interview he gave when he was

700
00:34:14,460 --> 00:34:17,399
S1: in Australia back in 2009, 2010, that he slept with

701
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,210
S1: at least 2000 women. Like that's not a crime as

702
00:34:21,210 --> 00:34:23,130
S1: sort of like, you know, weird and gross as it

703
00:34:23,130 --> 00:34:24,660
S1: is for a celeb to brag about that stuff. It's

704
00:34:24,660 --> 00:34:27,480
S1: not a crime for him to play, you know, a

705
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:32,069
S1: sex promiscuous guy on films that I feel like that's

706
00:34:32,070 --> 00:34:34,950
S1: not so much the issue of looking back and being like, wow,

707
00:34:34,950 --> 00:34:38,310
S1: Russell Brand was this sexpot character. Like, we should have

708
00:34:38,310 --> 00:34:41,700
S1: seen it coming to me. The bigger thing is what

709
00:34:41,700 --> 00:34:43,740
S1: you were just running us through. Thomas Like him kissing

710
00:34:43,739 --> 00:34:47,489
S1: women without consent on television, women like Dannii Minogue saying

711
00:34:47,489 --> 00:34:51,930
S1: he's a predator. That's the issue. Regardless of how many

712
00:34:51,930 --> 00:34:55,259
S1: sexual partners he'd had, regardless of what sort of characters

713
00:34:55,260 --> 00:34:56,970
S1: he'd played on screen. Right.

714
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,410
S2: Yeah, I agree completely and to the point as well. Like,

715
00:35:01,410 --> 00:35:04,470
S2: I don't think like people can have their own morals

716
00:35:04,469 --> 00:35:07,950
S2: about dating younger women, but no one's accused him of

717
00:35:07,950 --> 00:35:12,480
S2: any kind of misbehavior there. And as you were saying, Oz,

718
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,000
S2: to me, I always saw this behaviour as a kind

719
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,850
S2: of performance that he leant into because it increased his

720
00:35:17,850 --> 00:35:21,510
S2: brand and his marketability and his followers. It was his

721
00:35:21,510 --> 00:35:24,089
S2: shtick and he was loved for it. So he continued

722
00:35:24,090 --> 00:35:27,570
S2: doing it. But the difference is, as distasteful as individually,

723
00:35:27,570 --> 00:35:31,040
S2: we might find that shtick. The issue really is the

724
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,450
S2: kind of accusations of harassment.

725
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:35,549
S3: Yeah, and I think it's been interesting the last few days,

726
00:35:35,550 --> 00:35:37,650
S3: like watching back a lot of Russell Brand from that

727
00:35:37,650 --> 00:35:39,390
S3: early era is that, you know, like because you're right,

728
00:35:39,390 --> 00:35:42,600
S3: there is, you know, being promiscuous and being like even

729
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:44,520
S3: if you want to be generous, like sex positive and stuff,

730
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:46,410
S3: that's all totally fine. You want to be that way,

731
00:35:46,410 --> 00:35:49,080
S3: that's fine. But like the issue I think from watching

732
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:53,420
S3: back his interviews is that brand very much like. Used his,

733
00:35:53,750 --> 00:35:58,940
S3: I guess like in quotation marks, impressive intellect to kind

734
00:35:58,940 --> 00:36:02,450
S3: of bamboozle people and say things to them and put

735
00:36:02,450 --> 00:36:04,910
S3: them in a position like he would be. So like

736
00:36:04,910 --> 00:36:06,980
S3: in the Sam Army's interview, he talks her about like,

737
00:36:06,980 --> 00:36:08,750
S3: if you were on TV when I was younger, I

738
00:36:08,750 --> 00:36:11,270
S3: would be masturbating. Like, you know, like he says things

739
00:36:11,270 --> 00:36:14,600
S3: in a way that his delivery allows it to land softly,

740
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,750
S3: but it makes the recipient in this position where they

741
00:36:17,750 --> 00:36:20,270
S3: feel like they can only react by playing along. And

742
00:36:20,270 --> 00:36:22,489
S3: that's the impression I get. And and when you extend

743
00:36:22,489 --> 00:36:24,860
S3: that out, like in the lens of what's happening now,

744
00:36:24,860 --> 00:36:26,600
S3: that's where it really starts to get problematic. Like it's

745
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,779
S3: fine to be a promiscuous, flirty guy or girl and whatever.

746
00:36:29,780 --> 00:36:31,700
S3: And if that's part of your shtick, fine, but like

747
00:36:31,700 --> 00:36:34,430
S3: putting using the tools at your disposal to make people

748
00:36:34,430 --> 00:36:37,250
S3: uncomfortable and then seeing how they react and then kind

749
00:36:37,250 --> 00:36:39,680
S3: of like acting upon that reaction, that's where it gets

750
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:40,460
S3: really messy.

751
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:42,859
S1: Yeah. And in that vein, I think I think of

752
00:36:42,860 --> 00:36:46,250
S1: a similarity here to to Louis C.K. in a way, right.

753
00:36:46,250 --> 00:36:50,450
S1: In the sense that Louis C.K. had comedy or like

754
00:36:50,450 --> 00:36:54,200
S1: was saying things like, I enjoy masturbating in public and

755
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,770
S1: I've done these kinds of things. And then the allegations emerged.

756
00:36:57,770 --> 00:37:00,109
S1: That is, in fact, what he actually did. I feel

757
00:37:00,110 --> 00:37:03,890
S1: like the maybe the main takeaway here is when men

758
00:37:03,890 --> 00:37:06,370
S1: are literally saying they're doing things that are bad or

759
00:37:06,370 --> 00:37:09,950
S1: were watching them do stuff that's bad. That is the

760
00:37:09,950 --> 00:37:13,100
S1: right point at which you start to ask some questions

761
00:37:13,100 --> 00:37:16,370
S1: or or have some investigations or start to say, Oh,

762
00:37:16,370 --> 00:37:20,120
S1: this isn't actually good. And I think that's quite distinct to, yeah,

763
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,300
S1: just the general sense of like promiscuity. I feel like

764
00:37:23,300 --> 00:37:25,819
S1: the other part of this conversation that is really tricky

765
00:37:25,820 --> 00:37:29,000
S1: one to unpack, but one that's worth sitting on for

766
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,300
S1: a minute is the reaction to these kinds of things.

767
00:37:32,300 --> 00:37:35,300
S1: Now it feels like the Weinstein allegations were this high

768
00:37:35,300 --> 00:37:39,290
S1: watermark in terms of like believe women, right? Like journalists do,

769
00:37:39,290 --> 00:37:44,150
S1: amazing investigative reporting. They expose wrongdoing. There's a general clamoring

770
00:37:44,150 --> 00:37:48,259
S1: for some kind of action, criminal charges, societal conversations about

771
00:37:48,260 --> 00:37:51,830
S1: what we should do next. Ever since Weinstein, it feels

772
00:37:51,830 --> 00:37:55,219
S1: like the pushback to that approach has been growing and

773
00:37:55,219 --> 00:37:58,790
S1: growing and growing. This idea that we shouldn't have trial

774
00:37:58,790 --> 00:38:01,279
S1: by media. And if you put these allegations out there

775
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,400
S1: just leads to the woke mob on social media, unfairly

776
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:08,750
S1: taking down men, certainly an angle. That brand is playing

777
00:38:08,750 --> 00:38:12,080
S1: up to his audience who seem pretty happy to buy

778
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,930
S1: into it. But I mean, I do think it's worth

779
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,170
S1: just like putting some stuff out there to push back

780
00:38:18,170 --> 00:38:20,360
S1: against that a little bit, because I think a lot

781
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,120
S1: of people, even really smart people, get seduced that, you know,

782
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,780
S1: these allegations haven't been tested in court. We don't know

783
00:38:26,780 --> 00:38:30,350
S1: exactly what happened. There's an evidentiary burden that hasn't met, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

784
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,739
S1: It's important to say that the Times and its reporters

785
00:38:33,739 --> 00:38:36,860
S1: aren't claiming that they've conducted a trial. They are not

786
00:38:36,860 --> 00:38:39,380
S1: saying that Russell Brand is guilty of X, Y and Z,

787
00:38:39,380 --> 00:38:43,219
S1: but this is essentially how every single one of these

788
00:38:43,219 --> 00:38:46,640
S1: things starts. Like journalists do a lot of work. They

789
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:48,800
S1: speak to people over years and years. And I think

790
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,950
S1: that's why I said it is worth reading the stories

791
00:38:51,950 --> 00:38:53,690
S1: if you can. It's worth listen to the podcast. It's

792
00:38:53,690 --> 00:38:57,110
S1: worth watching the doco because this isn't just like a

793
00:38:57,110 --> 00:39:00,920
S1: random anonymous accusation that they've now turned into a news story.

794
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,310
S1: This is a lot of journalists building trust with a

795
00:39:04,310 --> 00:39:06,470
S1: lot of sources over a long period of time. There

796
00:39:06,469 --> 00:39:10,640
S1: are text messages. There is information from rape crisis centers

797
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,960
S1: that the victims went to and. I think it is

798
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,870
S1: really frustrating. And I think because we work in media,

799
00:39:17,870 --> 00:39:20,120
S1: maybe we feel this a bit more. When you see

800
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,330
S1: your colleagues who've worked on stories like this and the

801
00:39:23,330 --> 00:39:26,569
S1: bar for getting things like this published is so high, right?

802
00:39:26,570 --> 00:39:29,180
S1: Both in Australia and in the UK due to things

803
00:39:29,180 --> 00:39:32,509
S1: like defamation laws, that if something like this gets across

804
00:39:32,510 --> 00:39:35,960
S1: the line, it's not to say that he will 100%

805
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,020
S1: be convicted of a crime in court, but the chances

806
00:39:39,020 --> 00:39:41,960
S1: of this stuff being made up and wrong are very, very,

807
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,419
S1: very slim because of how hard it is to get

808
00:39:44,420 --> 00:39:49,130
S1: these things published. And it's really, I think, dismaying and

809
00:39:49,130 --> 00:39:51,650
S1: I think quite grim that were at a point in

810
00:39:51,650 --> 00:39:55,490
S1: our societal discourse now that enormous chunks of the population

811
00:39:55,489 --> 00:39:57,740
S1: will just see stuff like this and immediately say we

812
00:39:57,739 --> 00:40:00,170
S1: shouldn't have tried by media, we should just dismiss this.

813
00:40:00,170 --> 00:40:04,250
S1: This isn't real. I just can't quite figure out how

814
00:40:04,250 --> 00:40:06,800
S1: we grapple with that when there are two alternative universes

815
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,380
S1: where Russell Brand fans think it's a made up conspiracy

816
00:40:09,380 --> 00:40:14,290
S1: theory and people understand how journalism works, I think that

817
00:40:14,290 --> 00:40:17,260
S1: these are legit accusations. I sorry that I don't have

818
00:40:17,260 --> 00:40:19,569
S1: an answer to this, but I think I think we

819
00:40:19,570 --> 00:40:21,640
S1: need to figure it out because we're not going to

820
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:23,440
S1: tackle these issues until we do.

821
00:40:23,620 --> 00:40:25,690
S2: Yeah, I agree. And I would say two things to that.

822
00:40:25,690 --> 00:40:27,730
S2: People often say, well, you know, they didn't go to

823
00:40:27,730 --> 00:40:30,640
S2: the police and there's been no trial. And I think

824
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,720
S2: that often overlooks the reason why women who are victims

825
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:37,810
S2: of sexual abuse and violence don't go to the police

826
00:40:37,810 --> 00:40:40,870
S2: because trials are really set up against them. Like they're

827
00:40:40,870 --> 00:40:45,670
S2: really difficult experiences. They are traumatic. And the odds, as

828
00:40:45,670 --> 00:40:47,860
S2: we know, looking at the statistics here and I'm sure

829
00:40:47,860 --> 00:40:51,160
S2: it's the same in the UK, that they won't succeed.

830
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:53,740
S2: So to me, it kind of makes sense that women

831
00:40:53,739 --> 00:40:57,790
S2: who want justice, the media and trusted journalists are a

832
00:40:57,790 --> 00:41:01,150
S2: way to go. And to your other point, I do

833
00:41:01,150 --> 00:41:06,100
S2: think that MeToo movement has really suffered because that phrase

834
00:41:06,100 --> 00:41:10,120
S2: me too has become this catchall for such a broad

835
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:14,049
S2: sweep of behaviours. And while it was originally with Weinstein

836
00:41:14,050 --> 00:41:17,629
S2: and Louis C.K. and these kind of really clear cases

837
00:41:17,630 --> 00:41:20,690
S2: of abuse, it kind of struggled a bit because then

838
00:41:20,690 --> 00:41:23,810
S2: there were these cases where the area was like, It's

839
00:41:23,810 --> 00:41:25,700
S2: not great term, but a bit more gray where it

840
00:41:25,700 --> 00:41:28,940
S2: was matters of consent became a bit more contested. I

841
00:41:28,940 --> 00:41:32,030
S2: think of kind of Aziz Ansari in that space and

842
00:41:32,030 --> 00:41:35,899
S2: the movement kind of then became open to attacks and reaction,

843
00:41:35,900 --> 00:41:38,690
S2: which is natural, I guess when you have a revolution,

844
00:41:38,690 --> 00:41:41,510
S2: there's going to be reaction against it. And MeToo as

845
00:41:41,510 --> 00:41:44,630
S2: a phrase, got diluted. And I think the reaction to

846
00:41:44,630 --> 00:41:46,700
S2: it kind of the reactionaries won that in a way,

847
00:41:46,700 --> 00:41:49,879
S2: because now me too feels like this catchall that goes

848
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,120
S2: from the extreme really clear cases of abuse to kind

849
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,270
S2: of I guess they would argue, man hating and it

850
00:41:56,270 --> 00:41:59,510
S2: kind of lost its power and drive. And I think

851
00:41:59,510 --> 00:42:01,669
S2: that's what you see when people are like, oh, this

852
00:42:01,670 --> 00:42:04,219
S2: is just another case of, you know, people can't take

853
00:42:04,219 --> 00:42:06,629
S2: a joke going out of men. It's because, you know,

854
00:42:06,650 --> 00:42:09,290
S2: it's it's lumped in with that sense that MeToo has

855
00:42:09,290 --> 00:42:11,420
S2: gone too far. But I do think maybe we can

856
00:42:11,420 --> 00:42:15,950
S2: talk about Russell Brand's response to that. Allegations is really interesting.

857
00:42:15,950 --> 00:42:19,460
S2: He went on his YouTube channel. And what I found interesting,

858
00:42:19,460 --> 00:42:22,160
S2: he obviously denied them all, but he really fed into

859
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,760
S2: this idea that there's an agenda at play here. And

860
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:27,830
S2: he said, it feels to me there is a serious

861
00:42:27,830 --> 00:42:30,830
S2: and concerted agenda to control these kind of spaces and

862
00:42:30,830 --> 00:42:33,290
S2: these kind of spaces. I mean, me as well as

863
00:42:33,290 --> 00:42:35,990
S2: you like, he's kind of very much in appeal to

864
00:42:35,989 --> 00:42:38,810
S2: his followers that this is an attack just on me.

865
00:42:38,810 --> 00:42:41,360
S2: It is an attack on you and your values.

866
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:43,820
S1: Yeah, they're coming for me first. But if you don't

867
00:42:43,820 --> 00:42:45,620
S1: stand up, they'll come for you next. And I do

868
00:42:45,620 --> 00:42:46,910
S1: think that is a big part of this.

869
00:42:46,910 --> 00:42:49,250
S2: Yeah. And it's like, this isn't about me as an individual.

870
00:42:49,250 --> 00:42:51,230
S2: This is about what we stand for and what we

871
00:42:51,230 --> 00:42:53,690
S2: accept as a society. So he's kind of abdicating full

872
00:42:53,690 --> 00:42:56,690
S2: blame for himself and saying like, you know, this is

873
00:42:56,690 --> 00:42:58,430
S2: a fight for all of us. It's not about what

874
00:42:58,430 --> 00:43:02,590
S2: I did individually to these women. It is about our values.

875
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:04,100
S3: And it's interesting because he talks about in that video,

876
00:43:04,100 --> 00:43:06,049
S3: he says, like so many of you have been warning

877
00:43:06,050 --> 00:43:08,120
S3: me in the comments section lately, you're getting too close

878
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,940
S3: to the truth. Russell It's such a like conscious effort

879
00:43:10,940 --> 00:43:13,549
S3: to make this we're all in it together. When he's

880
00:43:13,550 --> 00:43:16,940
S3: sitting there denying a series of allegations from, like, the

881
00:43:16,940 --> 00:43:21,109
S3: 2000 regarding him, an individual. It's so weird to try

882
00:43:21,110 --> 00:43:23,480
S3: and conflate these two issues of like, we're all in

883
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,270
S3: this together, but like also, this was very much something

884
00:43:26,270 --> 00:43:30,080
S3: that involves me from years ago. It's yeah, it is

885
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:32,750
S3: very kind of disturbing to see. And I think in

886
00:43:32,750 --> 00:43:34,700
S3: response to what you were saying, it is interesting because

887
00:43:34,700 --> 00:43:38,180
S3: I think like the response to me too has now

888
00:43:38,180 --> 00:43:41,090
S3: kind of like degraded into this, like he said she

889
00:43:41,090 --> 00:43:42,770
S3: said type of thing. And that's what a lot of people,

890
00:43:42,770 --> 00:43:45,950
S3: I think, unfortunately will see this brand thing and be like, Oh, well,

891
00:43:45,950 --> 00:43:47,870
S3: this is just another he said she said, And how

892
00:43:47,870 --> 00:43:50,090
S3: do we know? But like again, like I especially, I

893
00:43:50,090 --> 00:43:53,270
S3: think the Times podcast is worth listening to the amount

894
00:43:53,270 --> 00:43:57,469
S3: of like work and the amount of sources and checking

895
00:43:57,469 --> 00:44:01,160
S3: and like just basically like 3A3 year investigation that went

896
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,550
S3: into like this is quite obviously not a single he

897
00:44:04,550 --> 00:44:07,850
S3: said she said situation like this is multiple sources and

898
00:44:07,850 --> 00:44:10,250
S3: multiple people coming forward to kind of like establish a

899
00:44:10,250 --> 00:44:13,810
S3: very clear timeline of what was taking place at that time. So. Yeah,

900
00:44:13,810 --> 00:44:16,240
S3: I just think, you know. Unfortunately, it is hard. I

901
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:18,160
S3: think when you're in the industry, journalism gets a bad

902
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:20,020
S3: rap and sometimes that's fair and sometimes it's not. But

903
00:44:20,020 --> 00:44:23,649
S3: in this particular circumstances, like this is seriously impressive work

904
00:44:23,650 --> 00:44:26,290
S3: that's gone into presenting a story. And then you take

905
00:44:26,290 --> 00:44:29,110
S3: it as as you see it, but it's definitely worth

906
00:44:29,230 --> 00:44:31,299
S3: paying respect to the work that's gone in here.

907
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:33,069
S1: Yeah. And I think the last thing I'll say about

908
00:44:33,070 --> 00:44:35,290
S1: that whole trial by media thing, it's like it's not

909
00:44:35,290 --> 00:44:39,550
S1: the media's job to only run stories when the evidentiary

910
00:44:39,550 --> 00:44:42,670
S1: base is high enough to secure a criminal conviction like

911
00:44:42,670 --> 00:44:44,980
S1: that is not the job of the media. And some

912
00:44:44,980 --> 00:44:46,360
S1: of the stuff I think what the journalists have done

913
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:48,700
S1: a really good job of to your point mill, they've

914
00:44:48,700 --> 00:44:51,670
S1: done a really good job of sort of outlining the

915
00:44:51,670 --> 00:44:54,580
S1: different kinds of behavior you're engaged in and the different

916
00:44:54,580 --> 00:44:56,770
S1: sort of levels, for lack of a better term, at meet.

917
00:44:56,770 --> 00:44:59,770
S1: And a lot of those might not be criminal, but

918
00:44:59,770 --> 00:45:03,160
S1: they are also still quite significant and harmful and relevant

919
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:07,810
S1: to the story of Russell Brand. And that feels important

920
00:45:07,810 --> 00:45:09,760
S1: to have on the record if it's been able to

921
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,370
S1: be stacked up, which it has, And the consequences for

922
00:45:12,370 --> 00:45:15,129
S1: this stuff are not always necessarily should this man go

923
00:45:15,130 --> 00:45:18,339
S1: to jail or not, because there have been consequences for

924
00:45:18,340 --> 00:45:20,650
S1: Russell Brand and Thomas, I wonder if you can kind

925
00:45:20,650 --> 00:45:22,000
S1: of run us through some of them. And I think

926
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:27,850
S1: they're an example of basically like how in this age, organizations,

927
00:45:27,850 --> 00:45:32,290
S1: individuals are dealing with these kinds of accusations in an

928
00:45:32,290 --> 00:45:36,879
S1: extrajudicial or like perhaps like, you know, bypassing that sort

929
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,150
S1: of policing court framework for all the problems you've outlined

930
00:45:40,150 --> 00:45:44,200
S1: and trying to express their values in terms of how

931
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,660
S1: they choose to act when it comes to their relationships

932
00:45:46,660 --> 00:45:48,910
S1: with with Russell Brand, I think it's a pretty interesting

933
00:45:48,910 --> 00:45:51,129
S1: live case study of how this is happening.

934
00:45:51,130 --> 00:45:52,839
S3: Yeah, So Brand is in the middle of a kind

935
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:55,900
S3: of like comedy talking to a thing called bi polarization.

936
00:45:55,900 --> 00:45:59,320
S3: So on Saturday night, he still performed to a crowd

937
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:03,129
S3: at London's Wesley Park Theater. 2000 people sold out. He

938
00:46:03,130 --> 00:46:05,980
S3: was an hour late to that show. And kind of

939
00:46:05,980 --> 00:46:07,360
S3: basically at the start of the show, the top end

940
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,000
S3: of the show, he was quick to address it being like,

941
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:11,410
S3: there's a lot of things I would love to talk

942
00:46:11,410 --> 00:46:14,380
S3: about but I can't talk about tonight. People were quite

943
00:46:14,380 --> 00:46:17,290
S3: surprised that given that, you know, Dispatches was about to

944
00:46:17,290 --> 00:46:19,899
S3: go to air, that he performed and then he was

945
00:46:19,900 --> 00:46:21,250
S3: he was due to perform at a bunch of other

946
00:46:21,250 --> 00:46:24,400
S3: venues for like Theatre Royal on Tuesday Plymouth Pavilions and

947
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:28,180
S3: he had a show in Wolverhampton basically yesterday the promoter

948
00:46:28,180 --> 00:46:31,330
S3: pulled the shows saying, We are postponing these few remaining

949
00:46:31,330 --> 00:46:33,609
S3: addiction charity fundraiser shows. We don't like doing it, but

950
00:46:33,610 --> 00:46:36,310
S3: we know you'll understand. On top of that, he has

951
00:46:36,310 --> 00:46:39,130
S3: been dumped by his management and talent agency and he

952
00:46:39,130 --> 00:46:42,040
S3: also strangely, he was connected to Trevi Women, which was

953
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:44,260
S3: a women's charity based in the UK, and they have

954
00:46:44,260 --> 00:46:48,430
S3: ended their relationship with him. Yesterday, perhaps most tellingly and

955
00:46:48,430 --> 00:46:51,850
S3: most importantly, YouTube announced it will no longer monetize his videos,

956
00:46:51,850 --> 00:46:54,969
S3: so denying him revenue from what is an insanely popular

957
00:46:54,969 --> 00:46:58,810
S3: YouTube channel, which would be very, very profitable to brand.

958
00:46:58,930 --> 00:47:02,500
S3: And on top of that, BBC has removed a bunch

959
00:47:02,500 --> 00:47:05,380
S3: of programmes from Brand on its iPlayer and streaming service,

960
00:47:05,380 --> 00:47:09,120
S3: including stuff from Channel four and finally his book publisher.

961
00:47:09,130 --> 00:47:11,710
S3: So Brands, you know, quite a prolific author, and he

962
00:47:11,710 --> 00:47:14,320
S3: had a bunch of books slated, some poetry books and

963
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:16,359
S3: some more self-help books. And all of those have been

964
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,060
S3: paused by his publisher in the UK poetry books.

965
00:47:19,180 --> 00:47:19,690
S2: Wow.

966
00:47:19,900 --> 00:47:22,660
S3: I know. So yeah. So I guess a snapshot is

967
00:47:22,660 --> 00:47:26,290
S3: like the response has been to kind of like and again,

968
00:47:26,290 --> 00:47:28,390
S3: like this will invite a whole people being like cancel culture.

969
00:47:28,390 --> 00:47:30,820
S3: He hasn't even been convicted yet, but it's more like

970
00:47:30,820 --> 00:47:33,370
S3: to me it seems like a sensible pause on everything

971
00:47:33,370 --> 00:47:36,580
S3: he's engaged in as we see this process play out,

972
00:47:36,580 --> 00:47:40,300
S3: because it is weird for him to be performing shows

973
00:47:40,300 --> 00:47:43,090
S3: every night or for him to be working on books.

974
00:47:43,090 --> 00:47:45,250
S1: Yeah, or for YouTube to be making money off him,

975
00:47:45,250 --> 00:47:49,960
S1: putting out videos, denying these accusations all gets pretty murky. Yeah.

976
00:47:50,230 --> 00:47:51,940
S3: So, yeah. So basically it seems like a lot of

977
00:47:51,940 --> 00:47:55,480
S3: his both his financial avenues and his projects and his

978
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:58,089
S3: live show, everything has been paused in light of what's

979
00:47:58,090 --> 00:47:58,630
S3: come forward.

980
00:47:59,110 --> 00:48:01,509
S1: So I guess the last question is kind of what

981
00:48:01,510 --> 00:48:06,759
S1: happens next, Mel, Do you think that like, by and large,

982
00:48:07,030 --> 00:48:09,939
S1: people are sort of thinking, okay, this has come out,

983
00:48:09,940 --> 00:48:13,060
S1: all this other stuff is resurfacing? I think it's time

984
00:48:13,060 --> 00:48:16,000
S1: and it's okay for us to leave. Russell Brand in

985
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,490
S1: the past or do you think that there's a big

986
00:48:18,489 --> 00:48:22,419
S1: enough contingent of people who will organize to protect him

987
00:48:22,420 --> 00:48:25,690
S1: and protect his reputation and sort of keep the Russell

988
00:48:25,690 --> 00:48:27,490
S1: Brand brand alive?

989
00:48:27,489 --> 00:48:30,370
S2: Yeah, I do think, sadly, that there is a big

990
00:48:30,370 --> 00:48:33,520
S2: enough contingent of people to keep the brand alive. And

991
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:36,670
S2: maybe this is the myth of cancellation sometimes is that

992
00:48:36,670 --> 00:48:39,760
S2: people don't really get canceled. And you can see that

993
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:43,660
S2: in his statement. He's when he accused kind of the

994
00:48:43,660 --> 00:48:46,390
S2: media of a coordinated attack against him, that he is

995
00:48:46,390 --> 00:48:49,239
S2: doubling down on his audience. So I presume he'll just

996
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:52,840
S2: transfer them to a new platform and probably grow the audience.

997
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:54,850
S2: And as we were saying before, it won't necessarily be

998
00:48:54,850 --> 00:48:57,430
S2: an audience who knows Russell Brand, but they'll think that

999
00:48:57,430 --> 00:49:00,370
S2: they align with his stance, which is against, you know,

1000
00:49:00,370 --> 00:49:04,509
S2: social justice warriors and the left. And he will get

1001
00:49:04,510 --> 00:49:07,450
S2: on that bandwagon and they will follow him because of

1002
00:49:07,450 --> 00:49:11,650
S2: what they see him representing. The Met is, as I mentioned,

1003
00:49:11,650 --> 00:49:13,870
S2: investigating one of the cases. So I think it will

1004
00:49:13,870 --> 00:49:16,810
S2: be interesting to see if other women do come forward

1005
00:49:16,810 --> 00:49:19,060
S2: and if there is kind of a criminal trial, what

1006
00:49:19,060 --> 00:49:22,750
S2: the consequences of that will be. But I think Bryant

1007
00:49:22,750 --> 00:49:25,900
S2: had actually already started moving well away from the mainstream,

1008
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:28,570
S2: particularly in terms of his political opinions and also the

1009
00:49:28,570 --> 00:49:31,330
S2: channels where he was predominantly speaking to his followers. So

1010
00:49:31,330 --> 00:49:34,569
S2: I think he'd actually already started that process of extricating

1011
00:49:34,570 --> 00:49:38,320
S2: himself from mainstream avenues. So I don't think we'll probably

1012
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:40,600
S2: see him back on kind of well, definitely don't think

1013
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:42,670
S2: we'll see him back on the BBC. And I don't

1014
00:49:42,670 --> 00:49:44,830
S2: think he's going to kind of have a career resurrection

1015
00:49:44,830 --> 00:49:47,080
S2: in the mainstream. But I think he will continue on

1016
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:50,380
S2: with this group of followers, quite helpfully and happily. Yeah.

1017
00:49:50,380 --> 00:49:52,390
S3: And to me, it's just, I guess another like depressing

1018
00:49:52,390 --> 00:49:56,080
S3: reminder of how, like embedded in these culture wars, we

1019
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:59,440
S3: have become like Elon Musk, Ben Shapiro and Andrew Tate

1020
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:01,990
S3: have all come out in support of Russell Brand, and

1021
00:50:01,989 --> 00:50:04,149
S3: it's like, This is the world we live in now.

1022
00:50:04,150 --> 00:50:07,420
S3: Like something big happens to someone on one side and

1023
00:50:07,420 --> 00:50:10,600
S3: there's not even like even like a time for a

1024
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:12,730
S3: discussion about what it means. It's just like battle lines

1025
00:50:12,730 --> 00:50:15,160
S3: drawn and everyone beds down on their side. And and

1026
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:17,319
S3: that's probably what'll happen. Like whether or not this becomes

1027
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:19,900
S3: a police investigation remains to be seen. But otherwise, he

1028
00:50:19,900 --> 00:50:22,270
S3: will just kind of like go further into that rabbit

1029
00:50:22,270 --> 00:50:24,220
S3: hole with the support of people like that, you know,

1030
00:50:24,250 --> 00:50:26,950
S3: the Tucker Carlson's and whatnot. And his audience will probably

1031
00:50:26,950 --> 00:50:29,350
S3: grow bigger and they will continue to listen to him.

1032
00:50:29,350 --> 00:50:31,299
S3: And everyone else on the other side will continue to like.

1033
00:50:31,300 --> 00:50:32,739
S3: It's just yeah, yeah.

1034
00:50:32,739 --> 00:50:35,650
S1: It's interesting how often this kind of culture war conversation

1035
00:50:35,650 --> 00:50:37,719
S1: has emerged over the last few weeks. Like we talked

1036
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:40,299
S1: about it with Barbie and how that like sort of

1037
00:50:40,300 --> 00:50:43,810
S1: had this fault line of country music level, country music.

1038
00:50:43,810 --> 00:50:47,620
S1: It is not that culture was ever disconnected from politics,

1039
00:50:47,620 --> 00:50:51,040
S1: but increasingly it just seems every single thing, whether it

1040
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:53,410
S1: is a celebrity or a film or a song or

1041
00:50:53,410 --> 00:50:57,850
S1: a book or whatever, just lands into this fractious, very

1042
00:50:57,850 --> 00:51:00,879
S1: stressful and very tough mess. But I'm glad to have

1043
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:04,520
S1: you guys to break it down with me. Thank you.

1044
00:51:04,540 --> 00:51:06,250
S3: Now, we can give some recommendations that people can get

1045
00:51:06,250 --> 00:51:07,210
S3: really fired up about.

1046
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:10,120
S1: Well, I think I look, I think this show, I

1047
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:12,010
S1: think it's important talk about those things. But also people

1048
00:51:12,010 --> 00:51:15,130
S1: want to hear what is good, what is out there,

1049
00:51:15,130 --> 00:51:17,830
S1: what should they be consuming, what they should be watching

1050
00:51:17,830 --> 00:51:21,100
S1: and listening to and reading. So this is our first

1051
00:51:21,100 --> 00:51:26,259
S1: ever Impress Your Friends segment. Mel, I'm actually going to

1052
00:51:26,260 --> 00:51:27,880
S1: step on your territory.

1053
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:28,660
S2: Oh, are you recommending.

1054
00:51:28,930 --> 00:51:32,860
S1: Look, I got a book. I got a book. I've

1055
00:51:32,860 --> 00:51:35,469
S1: mentioned this book I think, before on this show. It

1056
00:51:35,469 --> 00:51:39,310
S1: is a book called Killers of the Flower Moon, written

1057
00:51:39,310 --> 00:51:43,810
S1: by investigative journalist and author David Grant, came out in 2017.

1058
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:46,660
S1: The reason why I'm recommending it now, the reason why

1059
00:51:46,660 --> 00:51:49,540
S1: I read it recently, is because it is the source

1060
00:51:49,540 --> 00:51:54,450
S1: material for the upcoming Martin Scorsese film starring Leonardo DiCaprio.

1061
00:51:54,460 --> 00:51:58,990
S1: He mentioned on this podcast and Robert De Niro. The

1062
00:51:58,989 --> 00:52:02,020
S1: book is incredible. It is one of the best nonfiction

1063
00:52:02,020 --> 00:52:04,509
S1: books I've read in a really, really long time. It

1064
00:52:04,510 --> 00:52:08,230
S1: tells the story of these real life murders that occurred

1065
00:52:08,230 --> 00:52:14,500
S1: in Oklahoma targeting the Osage Native American people in the 1920s.

1066
00:52:14,830 --> 00:52:19,450
S1: Who was behind those murders, How those murders helped build

1067
00:52:19,450 --> 00:52:23,469
S1: up the myth and the legacy of what became the FBI.

1068
00:52:23,860 --> 00:52:29,410
S1: It is just so gripping, so well researched and well written.

1069
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:33,009
S1: I couldn't really recommend this book more, except if you

1070
00:52:33,010 --> 00:52:35,259
S1: want to avoid spoilers for the movie. If you don't

1071
00:52:35,260 --> 00:52:37,509
S1: know anything about this story and you want to just

1072
00:52:37,510 --> 00:52:41,470
S1: go into the film completely cold, obviously, I think give

1073
00:52:41,469 --> 00:52:44,860
S1: this one a miss. That said, like, I didn't feel

1074
00:52:44,860 --> 00:52:47,170
S1: like I was less interested in watching the movie after

1075
00:52:47,170 --> 00:52:49,570
S1: having read this book. I was like, This book is amazing.

1076
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:52,090
S1: I can't wait to see how they turn this into

1077
00:52:52,090 --> 00:52:52,569
S1: a film.

1078
00:52:52,570 --> 00:52:55,000
S3: I would also add to that that like, there is

1079
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,509
S3: nothing universally more satisfying, especially if you want to impress

1080
00:52:58,510 --> 00:53:01,810
S3: your friends, then seeing an adaptation of a book and

1081
00:53:01,810 --> 00:53:03,129
S3: then being like, Oh, the book's better.

1082
00:53:03,219 --> 00:53:07,150
S1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Hence impress your friends.

1083
00:53:07,150 --> 00:53:09,970
S2: How do you think Leo is going to go playing

1084
00:53:09,969 --> 00:53:11,080
S2: the character in this book?

1085
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:13,840
S1: I look, I don't know if Leo's ever given a

1086
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:17,200
S1: bad performance. Frankly, I want to avoid spoilers, but I think, like,

1087
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:21,759
S1: the Leo character is extremely complex in this book and

1088
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:26,080
S1: in this film, and I think he plays moral complexity

1089
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:29,200
S1: like no one else. I think it's incredible, incredible.

1090
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:31,420
S2: Casting both on and off the screen.

1091
00:53:32,810 --> 00:53:33,040
S6: Um.

1092
00:53:33,670 --> 00:53:35,580
S1: All right, Mel, what have you got for us?

1093
00:53:35,590 --> 00:53:38,080
S2: Okay. Well, because you were doing a book, it was

1094
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:41,170
S2: suggested that I might do a film. I was just

1095
00:53:41,170 --> 00:53:44,500
S2: chewing into my, like, a role, my fan base here.

1096
00:53:44,500 --> 00:53:46,870
S2: But so I have picked up a film that is

1097
00:53:46,870 --> 00:53:48,790
S2: also based on a book. I've been hanging out for

1098
00:53:48,790 --> 00:53:50,469
S2: this one. I didn't get to see it in cinemas.

1099
00:53:50,469 --> 00:53:52,480
S2: Oz I know you've been talking up for a while,

1100
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:56,140
S2: but How to blow up a pipeline has hit Apple TV.

1101
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:59,860
S2: It's based on the book by Andreas Mao and it's

1102
00:53:59,860 --> 00:54:03,279
S2: by the director Daniel Goldhaber. And it's an eco thriller

1103
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:06,489
S2: in which a group of young environmental activists sabotage an

1104
00:54:06,489 --> 00:54:09,730
S2: oil pipeline in Texas and kind of looks at the

1105
00:54:09,730 --> 00:54:14,410
S2: moral validity of property destruction and. Whether sabotage is justified

1106
00:54:14,410 --> 00:54:17,950
S2: as self defense. It's this really tight and tension filled

1107
00:54:17,950 --> 00:54:22,510
S2: film which I found entirely gripping. And if you want

1108
00:54:22,510 --> 00:54:25,720
S2: to impress your friends even more eco thrillers, having a

1109
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:29,110
S2: real moment in literature at the moment, you could hit

1110
00:54:29,110 --> 00:54:34,000
S2: Edward Abbey's 1975 novel, The Monkey Wrench Gang, which was

1111
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:34,870
S2: one of the first.

1112
00:54:35,020 --> 00:54:35,890
S12: You can hear the reviews.

1113
00:54:35,890 --> 00:54:36,580
S3: Rolling in.

1114
00:54:37,300 --> 00:54:41,800
S2: And more recently, Richard Powers, Pulitzer Prize winning the Overstory,

1115
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:44,230
S2: also looked at eco terrorism. So I think it's a

1116
00:54:44,230 --> 00:54:47,529
S2: hot topic and I imagine we'll see plenty more films, books, TV,

1117
00:54:47,530 --> 00:54:48,520
S2: looking at this theme.

1118
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:50,529
S1: Well, the cool thing about this, how to blow up

1119
00:54:50,530 --> 00:54:53,410
S1: a pipeline is that the book, the Source book is

1120
00:54:53,410 --> 00:54:55,990
S1: a nonfiction book. It's sort of like a like an

1121
00:54:55,989 --> 00:54:58,630
S1: argument as to whether or not it's time to embrace

1122
00:54:58,630 --> 00:55:02,230
S1: violent kind of guerrilla tactics. And it's been adapted by

1123
00:55:02,230 --> 00:55:06,310
S1: by Goldhaber into a a fictional sort of account. And

1124
00:55:06,310 --> 00:55:08,920
S1: it's so good. It's so gripping this film. It's one

1125
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:11,260
S1: of my favorites of the year. It's like a heist movie.

1126
00:55:11,260 --> 00:55:13,450
S1: Like it reminds me a bit of the Ocean's films

1127
00:55:13,450 --> 00:55:16,330
S1: in terms of like getting the gang together and getting

1128
00:55:16,330 --> 00:55:17,589
S1: all these bits and pieces and how are you going

1129
00:55:17,590 --> 00:55:22,060
S1: to tackle this problem with a really powerful like gut

1130
00:55:22,060 --> 00:55:25,509
S1: punch really about where the world is heading? Really good recommendation.

1131
00:55:25,510 --> 00:55:27,339
S2: Yeah. And there was actually some blowback to it as

1132
00:55:27,340 --> 00:55:30,820
S2: well in certain reviews saying that essentially it was encouraging

1133
00:55:30,820 --> 00:55:35,460
S2: eco terrorism rather than pacifism amongst environmental activists. So yeah,

1134
00:55:35,469 --> 00:55:37,420
S2: it has tapped into a lot of political debates.

1135
00:55:37,420 --> 00:55:39,819
S1: To Thomas, please tell me you're not going to do

1136
00:55:39,820 --> 00:55:42,520
S1: a book adjacent recommendation as well.

1137
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:44,410
S3: I thought I would stay on brand well, kind of

1138
00:55:44,410 --> 00:55:47,890
S3: on brand and do something to watch on TV because

1139
00:55:47,890 --> 00:55:49,359
S3: there's lots of good stuff out right now. But this

1140
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:53,620
S3: one is actually probably, possibly surprising. So Australian story this.

1141
00:55:53,620 --> 00:55:54,430
S12: Week this.

1142
00:55:54,430 --> 00:55:57,460
S2: Is you got when I told you to I was

1143
00:55:57,460 --> 00:56:02,560
S2: watching Australian Story, you mocked me. I mean, here we go.

1144
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:04,980
S3: I just well, more this is more for the we.

1145
00:56:04,989 --> 00:56:07,029
S1: Message, you know as we do and our chat with like,

1146
00:56:07,030 --> 00:56:08,200
S1: oh what's that one up to tonight? And I was

1147
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:11,410
S1: like just settling in for part one of Australian stories

1148
00:56:11,410 --> 00:56:16,060
S1: examination of iconic rock band Silverchair. And we laughed heartily.

1149
00:56:16,870 --> 00:56:19,030
S12: Only because you have just got to like.

1150
00:56:19,030 --> 00:56:20,740
S3: Okay, firstly you knew I was recommending this, so you

1151
00:56:20,739 --> 00:56:22,630
S3: saved this for on, you know, just that you've got

1152
00:56:22,630 --> 00:56:25,840
S3: such an ABC like Monday night Tuesday night lineup vibe.

1153
00:56:25,989 --> 00:56:27,730
S3: But again this this will impress your friends because telling

1154
00:56:27,730 --> 00:56:29,320
S3: people that you watching the ABC like on free to

1155
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:30,959
S3: air people are like wow that's.

1156
00:56:31,140 --> 00:56:31,860
S12: That's all TV.

1157
00:56:31,870 --> 00:56:32,740
S2: Antenna yeah.

1158
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:35,470
S3: No but this like a two part Australian story The

1159
00:56:35,469 --> 00:56:37,360
S3: first part aired this week and the second part airs

1160
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:39,730
S3: next week. And basically it charts the rise of Silverchair.

1161
00:56:39,730 --> 00:56:42,310
S3: And it is a really interesting story, as we all know.

1162
00:56:42,310 --> 00:56:44,170
S3: I guess that kind of a familiar with the background

1163
00:56:44,170 --> 00:56:47,410
S3: of Silverchair, you know, like 1994, 315 year old kids

1164
00:56:47,410 --> 00:56:50,830
S3: from Newcastle like write a song tomorrow. It goes into

1165
00:56:50,830 --> 00:56:53,560
S3: like an ABC triple j unearthed style competition and then

1166
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:55,719
S3: like blows up and then like a year later, they're

1167
00:56:55,719 --> 00:56:57,670
S3: one of the biggest bands in the world, you know,

1168
00:56:57,670 --> 00:57:00,910
S3: famously known as Nirvana in Pyjamas. Like the story of

1169
00:57:00,910 --> 00:57:04,210
S3: Silverchair is fucking insane. What I think is great though,

1170
00:57:04,210 --> 00:57:07,360
S3: about this, So firstly, I guess it's worth mentioning Daniel

1171
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:09,730
S3: Johns does not appear so. This is just the story

1172
00:57:09,730 --> 00:57:13,450
S3: of Silverchair. According to Ben Gillies, the drummer, and Chris Joannou,

1173
00:57:13,450 --> 00:57:17,260
S3: the guitarist. And, you know, it basically charts the first

1174
00:57:17,260 --> 00:57:20,680
S3: episode charts the rise of Silverchair and how the effects

1175
00:57:20,690 --> 00:57:22,960
S3: of stuff like diorama and frog stomping like, you know,

1176
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:26,140
S3: these are these are 16 year old kids touring America

1177
00:57:26,140 --> 00:57:28,930
S3: with Red Hot Chili peppers. And they interviewed like the

1178
00:57:28,930 --> 00:57:31,600
S3: guys mums. And so like, like this is how insane

1179
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:33,220
S3: it was every time they went on a tour of

1180
00:57:33,220 --> 00:57:35,080
S3: America or the UK, it was like either the three

1181
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:36,730
S3: mums would go or the three dads would go like

1182
00:57:36,730 --> 00:57:39,880
S3: they would share it. And like, like I think it's

1183
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:42,970
S3: Chris who's mum recalls their tour managing in the US

1184
00:57:42,970 --> 00:57:44,380
S3: coming up being like, So what are your boys want?

1185
00:57:44,380 --> 00:57:46,540
S3: Do they want like some drugs? Like do they want alcohol?

1186
00:57:46,540 --> 00:57:48,190
S3: Do they want women? And she's like, Oh, can you

1187
00:57:48,190 --> 00:57:51,250
S3: take them go karting? Like it's it's you forget that

1188
00:57:51,250 --> 00:57:54,970
S3: Silverchair were an enormous enormous like entry into this like

1189
00:57:54,970 --> 00:57:57,280
S3: rock landscape when grunge was becoming a thing. And they're

1190
00:57:57,280 --> 00:57:59,740
S3: incredibly successful. They played Rock and Rio, the biggest festival

1191
00:57:59,740 --> 00:58:02,140
S3: in the world. They played the Billboard Music Awards like

1192
00:58:02,140 --> 00:58:04,000
S3: they were. They played Saturday Night Live when they weren't

1193
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:06,730
S3: even 18 years old like this. I think about that now.

1194
00:58:06,740 --> 00:58:08,590
S2: Also. It's funny seeing them now because they're just like

1195
00:58:08,590 --> 00:58:10,420
S2: 40 year old dudes that you wouldn't be able to

1196
00:58:10,420 --> 00:58:12,310
S2: tell apart, like in the supermarket.

1197
00:58:12,310 --> 00:58:14,890
S3: Exactly. So, I mean, look, the first episode was great.

1198
00:58:14,890 --> 00:58:18,370
S3: I'm very keen to see the next episode, especially Ben

1199
00:58:18,370 --> 00:58:20,860
S3: Gillies and Daniel Johns have had quite a public falling

1200
00:58:20,860 --> 00:58:23,530
S3: out and I suspect that part two will address that.

1201
00:58:23,530 --> 00:58:26,380
S3: But I think Silverchair is a very special band to

1202
00:58:26,380 --> 00:58:28,630
S3: a lot of Australians. They hold a kind of peculiar

1203
00:58:28,630 --> 00:58:33,490
S3: place in the Australian landscape of music and this is

1204
00:58:33,490 --> 00:58:36,880
S3: a good examination of, I mean becoming too famous, too

1205
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:39,550
S3: young and the price you pay for achieving your dream

1206
00:58:39,700 --> 00:58:42,610
S3: and then and how that impacts you later on. Also

1207
00:58:42,610 --> 00:58:44,350
S3: special shout out because this is one of my favourite

1208
00:58:44,350 --> 00:58:47,380
S3: things ABC do like the episode begins with Leigh Sales

1209
00:58:47,380 --> 00:58:49,450
S3: obviously presenting the story and because it's like a story

1210
00:58:49,450 --> 00:58:51,160
S3: about a music band, they've put it in an alleyway

1211
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:52,180
S3: with graffiti on it.

1212
00:58:52,330 --> 00:58:52,750
S6: So I just.

1213
00:58:52,820 --> 00:58:53,410
S3: Thought, This is.

1214
00:58:53,410 --> 00:58:54,100
S6: Amazing.

1215
00:58:54,100 --> 00:58:56,590
S2: And after you watch the second episode of this, will

1216
00:58:56,590 --> 00:58:58,150
S2: you stay on for Four Corners?

1217
00:58:58,150 --> 00:59:00,410
S3: Mediawatch Absolutely. No.

1218
00:59:00,730 --> 00:59:01,960
S2: You're locking in for Monday night.

1219
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:05,860
S1: ABC Good. I feel like that very first impress your friend.

1220
00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:08,200
S1: That was a hit. That was great. Yeah, we killed it.

1221
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:08,710
S6: Yeah. Yeah.

1222
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:10,210
S2: Well, I'm certainly impressed.

1223
00:59:10,210 --> 00:59:13,040
S1: Yeah, if you liked it and want. Here More ABC

1224
00:59:13,040 --> 00:59:16,310
S1: free to air recommendations from Thomas. Please leave a review.

1225
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:17,330
S12: Tell people.

1226
00:59:20,180 --> 00:59:23,930
S1: Thanks Thomas and Mel. Enjoy the rest of your week.

1227
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:24,740
S2: You too.

1228
00:59:24,770 --> 00:59:27,170
S3: Thanks, guys. My friends, be very impressed by your suggestion.

1229
00:59:32,900 --> 00:59:35,870
S1: This episode of The Drop was produced by Che Wong.

1230
00:59:36,290 --> 00:59:39,440
S1: If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop,

1231
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:42,470
S1: make sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app.

1232
00:59:42,500 --> 00:59:45,440
S1: Leave us a review or better yet, share it with

1233
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:48,830
S1: a friend. I'm Osman Farooqui. See you next week.