1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,320 Speaker 1: I'm Adam Swab, I'm a dear shiftman. And this is 2 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: the contrarians with Adam and Adir did how would you 3 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 1: check your life trauma or TPD insurance? 4 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 2: I would say I never check it, and I'm quite 5 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 2: neglectful with that altogether. 6 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: I don't blame you. I do think I checked mine 7 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: for about ten years. I just kept paying more and 8 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 1: more every year and it's got ridiculous. 9 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm totally with you on that. I mean, people 10 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 2: approach me about life insurance periodically and I kind of 11 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 2: just fob them off and really don't pay any attention 12 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 2: to it. I wouldn't even know where to pay attention. 13 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: Actually I have it, but I was so slack I 14 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: kept paying it a year on year. And I've got 15 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: a whole of the team from Safety Nest and I'm 16 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 1: curious for not doing this sooner. Why so, the Safety 17 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 1: Nest team did a complete check of all my different 18 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: policies life trauma TBD literally in a few hours able 19 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: to restructure my policies and remove allays unecessary stuff I 20 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: was paying for it in need and actually say five 21 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:56,319 Speaker 1: thousand dollars a year. 22 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 2: Oh my god, this is that there is nobody that 23 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 2: will be more frustrated about wasting money than you think 24 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 2: of all of the things that you can spend it on. 25 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:05,559 Speaker 2: I mean literally no food or drink. 26 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: Well, it's bitters sweet because I love saving money, but 27 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 1: I hate the fact I wasn't saving money if you 28 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: chamer so and what's just the cash shaving. The Safety 29 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: Nest team also recommended different cover up for our kids, 30 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: so I didn't realize you get kid insurance as well. 31 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: Just gives you extra peace of mind. The last thing 32 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: you want to do is leave your partner and family 33 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: in a really tough position if God forbid, something terrible happens, 34 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: and if you don't have or aren't properly being advised 35 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: for critical insurances to protect you and your family and 36 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:30,680 Speaker 1: can get in touch with the team at safety Nest 37 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: who will give our listeners a free, no obligation consultation 38 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: to make sure you're optimizing spend and policies. Just go 39 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: to safetynest dot com dot au and click to get started, 40 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 1: or give them a call on one three hundred zero 41 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: five five nine two to two. You've probably heard me 42 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: say there's nothing more important to a business's success than 43 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: a great team. For nearly a decade, Effics has helped 44 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: more than three hundred and fifty companies from startups to 45 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: established enterprise businesses, make key exec hires, recruit specialists, and 46 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: scale high performing GTM and technology teams. They understand the 47 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: unique challenges at every stage and offer flexible, creative solutions 48 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:11,079 Speaker 1: tailored to your company's growth phase. Working as partners not 49 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: just recruiters, Ephics has built winning teams for companies like 50 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 1: Roller nine nine Designs, Mecha, PLAYHQ, and Flipper. They even 51 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 1: help Australian businesses scale into the US. As a special 52 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: offer for Contrarians listeners, Ephics will provide a complementary talent 53 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,079 Speaker 1: strategy session. Go to ethics dot com dot au forward 54 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: Slash Contrarians to speak to Jar and the team for 55 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: your next critical hire. And we're back our next episode 56 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: of Ask Us Anything, where you ask us questions and 57 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: we answer them as best we can. 58 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:42,679 Speaker 2: Onto Question one Mike. 59 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 3: As always, guys, voice messages are our preferred, so please 60 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 3: send them in via our LinkedIn messages. This one came 61 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 3: in on LinkedIn from Campbell. Here's the question. Hey guys, 62 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 3: I love the show. My question is what is something 63 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 3: that you've I've kind of completely changed your mind on 64 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 3: in the last five years or. 65 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: Even ten years. 66 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 3: It can be personal, business or political. 67 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: And also what made you change your opinion? What made 68 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 1: your opinion actually shift? 69 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 3: All right, keep up the good work. 70 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: Thanks, great question, Ida, You can first come up the ranking. 71 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 4: I changed my mind about the idea of loss making growth. 72 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 4: I think when I was very young, I did businesses 73 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 4: that were basically buying and selling trading businesses. And those businesses, 74 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 4: the downside is you have to have some capital in stock. 75 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 4: The upside is you buy it for one hundred dollars, 76 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 4: you sell it for five hundred dollars. After you sell it, 77 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 4: you made four hundred dollars, and then you go and 78 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 4: do it again and you've got more capital. And so 79 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 4: those are easy, straightforward businesses. And then I got, you know, 80 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 4: coding software, and I got caught up in this software world. 81 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 4: And everybody told me, the smart people in the software world, 82 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 4: they just lose money to build, build, grow, And I 83 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 4: just went down this road, which is, you know, valuations 84 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:05,119 Speaker 4: detached from profitability, let's call it. And like, I really 85 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:08,839 Speaker 4: spent a long time in that world, and I would 86 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 4: say probably five or six years ago just came to 87 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 4: this realization. It might have been longer than that. A 88 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 4: few years before COVID, I came to this realization, which 89 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 4: is the idea of business is to make money, and 90 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 4: I'm not sure it can be called a business if 91 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 4: it doesn't make money for a long period of time. 92 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 4: And it was a complete switch. And so I switched 93 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 4: my attitude to direct consumer ecomms because that is a 94 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 4: great way to make money. What I noticed is all 95 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 4: of the early ones weren't making money. They had the 96 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 4: same dumb attitude of just grow and build the brand 97 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 4: and lose money, and they all failed like that was 98 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 4: a disaster. So I really focused heavily on margins. So 99 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 4: I switched my focus heavily to margins and generating free 100 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 4: cash and pocketing cash. And in software, it's not as 101 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 4: simple as that, because there are times when you can 102 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 4: lose money to grow a software business. If it's growing 103 00:04:57,760 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 4: very rapidly, that's when it's rule of forty is useful. 104 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:04,119 Speaker 4: But I definitely switched my view to thinking about when 105 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 4: will a software business actually start making money? Like you 106 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 4: can't kick that can down the road forever. I mean, 107 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:14,039 Speaker 4: some companies do right, but generally you shouldn't. And I 108 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 4: changed to a different philosophy around building software businesses as well. 109 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 4: So I think that was a pretty dramatic change that 110 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 4: I had. Maybe it was ten years ago that change. 111 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: It's worked out very well for you, So that a 112 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: great change. I've three that I thought of. First. One 113 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: is politics. So if you go back, probably between the 114 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: age of fifteen and thirty, I would be quite right wing, 115 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 1: center right, maybe you call it center right economically, maybe 116 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: a bit left of that from a social perspective, but 117 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: I was sent to right, and certainly I drifted further 118 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: leftwards probably my thirties as we're running out businesses, and 119 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: probably got to the point where I was I was 120 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,840 Speaker 1: regularly running labor and Barack Obama fan and that sort 121 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 1: of the point. And then I absolutely flicked away during COVID. 122 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: Certainly that the left and the fact that the right 123 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 1: was guilty as well, because Morrison and Freedenberg were absolutely. 124 00:05:59,320 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 2: Guilty of this. 125 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: But if you look at the conduct of the left 126 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: in COVID globally, that it was abhorrent and the way 127 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: they treated citizens and the quick sit and look down 128 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 1: Andrew's and Victoria it's his quick march to authoritarianism. The 129 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: left disgusted me and they continue to disgust me during 130 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: the Israel conflict. So I hate the left. I still 131 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 1: don't like the right. So now they basically know what 132 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 1: I'm sort of in this no man's land, which I 133 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 1: think a lot of people are. Who's called economic libertarianism. 134 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,359 Speaker 2: It's not no man's land, it's called centrism. Welcome to 135 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 2: the center. It's the happiest place. That's where you should be. 136 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 2: I know there's no center party because people don't march 137 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 2: in the streets saying we love the middle. You can't 138 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 2: get people excited about that. But that is actually the 139 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 2: best place. 140 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a case of I think it's been 141 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: economically sensible, hating deth as it's hating debt, but also 142 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 1: being progressive in terms of social so call it pro abortion, 143 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 1: pro gay right. So there's I think there's a big 144 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: pool of people who are just completely unserved by the 145 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: disgraceful right ring parties and then the incompetent left wing parties. 146 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: So that was sort of one change. So now like 147 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 1: we almost don't want to vote for anywhere most cases, 148 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,239 Speaker 1: don't vote for anyone in terms of investing, not exactly 149 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: like yours. But we talked about on our last ask 150 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: as anything. I would I invest in quite a few 151 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: startups over sort of a ten or probably an eight 152 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: year period from twenty fifteen to tw twenty three, and 153 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: I'm not sure I'll invest in startups again. I just 154 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: don't think the risk return liquidity profile makes sense. So 155 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: you sort of you understand. I understand that. I think 156 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,239 Speaker 1: every startup investor knows there's a big chance of having 157 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: a zero in your investment, but obviously there's power law, 158 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: so you could get one hundred x. I think that's 159 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: a fine trade off. I think the trade off that 160 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 1: every startup investor didn't expect is this of ten potentially 161 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: fifteen year old periods not getting dividends, and it's just 162 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: been this sort of desert of return. So you've got 163 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: these startups who aren't making money so aren't paying dividends, 164 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:46,559 Speaker 1: so you're not getting any returns and there's no really 165 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: no immediate likely lod of liquidity. So it's that's been 166 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: somewhat disappointing. So I would I think now the better 167 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: approach is potentially if you, if you want to invest 168 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: this ups, go through a VC firm, but ultimately I 169 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: think ETFs index funds really just a broad portfolio or 170 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: really looking for businesses with moats I think is a 171 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: much better way to invest than trying to be a hero. 172 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: I'm picking ten startups. I think it's just really hard 173 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: to get that right. And my third one is, and 174 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: this is really thanks to you, is how I think 175 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: about competitive vantage, and especially these are the luxury escapes, 176 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: And thanks to you and Hamilton Helmer and your friend 177 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: who told us about the required podcast. And I think 178 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,119 Speaker 1: this is similar with you, but I've very much changed 179 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: the way I look at our business. 180 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 4: Oh, I totally agree with It's a great call. Yes, 181 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 4: I totally agree with you. My whole attitude towards what 182 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 4: is strategy and how important the idea of differential returns 183 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 4: to competitors over time is and what does it? Oh, totally, 184 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 4: it's a great call. I totally agree with you. And 185 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 4: I changed my answer to that. Well you have more 186 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 4: than one answer, Well, clearly you can. 187 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: I've got three. But yeah, again, how we run luxury 188 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 1: escapes very much now is when we look at how 189 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 1: we allocate our capitals, how we building competitive vantage, and 190 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:51,079 Speaker 1: how do we go from a business with product market fit, 191 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 1: which I've obviously had for a number of years. But 192 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: that's all good and well, but you can blow those 193 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: houses over pretty quickly. But a business with strong competitive 194 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 1: vantages is one that has a moat that can last 195 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: generations or last decades. And that's what we're trying to build. 196 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: So and that's thanks to you and our friend who 197 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: told us about acquired and how much on hell where 198 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 1: it's been instrumental on how I look at the business. 199 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 4: Let me say that these are my kind of one 200 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 4: line things that I'm going to say. So one is 201 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 4: how uncorrelated wealth is to happiness, So that's something I've 202 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 4: learned over time. The second thing is how uncorrelated intelligence 203 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 4: is to wealth, So that's another thing I've learned over time. 204 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 4: How about how how correlated relationships are to wealth, So 205 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 4: that's amazing. Like the people that have deep networks, like 206 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 4: they just are connected to ways to make money. In fact, 207 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 4: I think the whole way that money works I thought 208 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:45,079 Speaker 4: I understood. I read a lot of books and I 209 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 4: didn't do a degree, but I read a lot of 210 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 4: books about it. 211 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:51,079 Speaker 1: Into a business degree. Yeah, well I didn't teach you 212 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: a lot about making money in medicine, isn't it Sure 213 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 1: that's a subject. 214 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 4: They have this one lecture for one hour, unlike to 215 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 4: how look if you're going to run your own practice, 216 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 4: how it works. 217 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 2: It's pathetic. 218 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 4: And no, it's amazing how little they teach you about, 219 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 4: like running a small business, which is what most people 220 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 4: end up doing when they become doctors. But the other thing, 221 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 4: like I had this whole understanding of money, and the 222 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 4: thing is when you get into business, the way it 223 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 4: behaves is nothing like the way it's supposed to behave 224 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 4: in books, especially economics books, and so that that was 225 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 4: a pretty big revelation. Obviously, the biggest revelation is the 226 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,839 Speaker 4: fact that you know that that there's that Beatles song 227 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 4: like the best things in life are free, and then 228 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:37,199 Speaker 4: it goes on to disparage the rest of that concepts. 229 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 3: In life up. 230 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:41,719 Speaker 1: But you can people bother persons. 231 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 2: So it's untrue. 232 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 4: I think in some ways that like the best things 233 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,319 Speaker 4: in life are free because everything costs money. Almost nothing 234 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 4: costs nothing. But a better way to say it is 235 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 4: the best things are not things that can be improved 236 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 4: by more money. So like kids, they cost money, they 237 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 4: are not free, but you can't improve them with more 238 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 4: money and relationships, like there's a cost of a relationship, 239 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 4: Like there's a cost of living in a house, there's 240 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:10,719 Speaker 4: a cost of eating. There's a cost. So you can't 241 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 4: say the best things are free because eating that's pretty 242 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 4: good and they costs money. But like, mostly you can't 243 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 4: improve the best things by throwing more money at them. 244 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 4: They are not linearly correlated to the amount of money 245 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 4: you put into them. So I think that took me 246 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 4: a while because when I was very young, I just 247 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 4: wanted to be as rich as possible, and I thought 248 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 4: that was all that mattered, and I thought that people 249 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 4: that weren't rich were kind of losers. I really thought 250 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 4: that when I was young, and as I've gotten older, 251 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 4: I've also seen there's no correlation between losers and money, 252 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 4: Like there are some very rich people that are great 253 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,200 Speaker 4: people and some people with no money that are great people. 254 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 4: And so, you know, I think basically this like what 255 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 4: if you change your view on and my answer would 256 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:49,959 Speaker 4: everything one thing. Yeah, Like my whole life has been 257 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 4: a journey of almost everything I thought when I was 258 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 4: young turned out to be wrong. 259 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: Thanks Mike. 260 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 3: Question two Okay, this one came in on the linked 261 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 3: in thread as well, and it's actually follow up to 262 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 3: one we had in the last Q and A from JK. 263 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: Smith. 264 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 3: He asked this week, generally speaking, how does communication work 265 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 3: between business and politicians and even communication with the media. 266 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 2: Oh, that's I mean, I've had quite I don't know 267 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 2: how much interaction you've had with. 268 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: Politicians, very little. Like we speak to politicians occasionally, but 269 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: we don't get any we don't lobby, we don't get 270 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: any favors done. If a politician wants to reach out 271 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: and ask my views on stuff, I'll tell them, but 272 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: it's very rare, and I don't think politicians are that 273 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: interested in. 274 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 4: Us, to be honest, And so I've never lobbied a 275 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 4: politician because I've never had anything that I needed from them. 276 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 4: And most of my interactions with politicians, in fact, maybe 277 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 4: i'd say all of them have been like me helping 278 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 4: them in some way, and it's not always like basically 279 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 4: they want money, but it's not only money, Like there 280 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,440 Speaker 4: are people who I really believe are great politicians and 281 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 4: there are other ways to help them. But I can 282 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 4: tell you about how it works when people do want 283 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 4: something from them, because I've seen that. And so this 284 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,680 Speaker 4: is how it works. They basically you can't just go 285 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,079 Speaker 4: and give money to a politician in a paper bag 286 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 4: and say, now I want you to do this, I 287 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 4: think like to be honest with you. That is definitely 288 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 4: what used to happen with property developers in some places. 289 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 4: They used to just put money in a paper bag 290 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 4: and then they would get like a permit to build something. 291 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 4: But if that still happens, I haven't seen that kind 292 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 4: of stuff happen. It's much more subtle. Every politician has 293 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 4: got some kind of fund that they have to support 294 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 4: them two hundred club, a five hundred club, or Kuyong 295 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 4: something or whatever it might be. And these are not 296 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 4: people that are going and giving one hundred thousand dollars. 297 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 4: It's not easy to give one hundred thousand dollars. In fact, 298 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 4: if you want to give that, you have to find 299 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 4: lots of different people with lots of different names that 300 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 4: you're associated with to give tranches in all of the 301 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:47,719 Speaker 4: different names. Because there are laws around how much you 302 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 4: can give, so you don't actually have to give very 303 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 4: much money. But and so when I say not much, 304 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 4: maybe you have to give ten k and you have 305 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 4: to give it consistently, and then you can't say here's 306 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 4: ten k now, I want you to give me this 307 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 4: because most politicians, in fact, every politician that I know, 308 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 4: would never do that. Okay, I want to just put 309 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 4: that out there, not that they wouldn't be able to, 310 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 4: they would not want to interact in that way. What's 311 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 4: supporting them does is it gives you a chance to 312 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 4: interact with them and to form a relationship with them. 313 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 4: And if you're an absolute shyster, then the chances of 314 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 4: getting something from most politicians is actually quite low because 315 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 4: they are quite allergic to the idea of getting caught 316 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:25,119 Speaker 4: up with shysters. 317 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 2: Not all of them. I mean, we saw what happened 318 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 2: with Eddie Rbyd in a. 319 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: Different era though that was now twenty years ago. 320 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 4: But yeah, I'm sure that there's some really dodgy stuff 321 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 4: that goes on. Every political system has corruption in it, 322 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 4: and I would almost say every political system has bad 323 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 4: corruption in it, and often it's just hidden. I think 324 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 4: our system probably has less bad corruption than most other systems, 325 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 4: but it will still be there. But that's not what 326 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 4: I have seen. I've just seen people who are then 327 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 4: start to help politician. Maybe they bring other people into 328 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 4: this group to also donate money, so they can't donate more, 329 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 4: but they bring other people in to donate more, and 330 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 4: this money is not being used nefariously. Like politicians need 331 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 4: money to run campaigns and to do all sorts of things, 332 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 4: and through the course of getting to know them, I 333 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 4: think what it gives them a chance to do predominantly 334 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 4: is to prosecute their arguments with the politician of why 335 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 4: certain policies are the right policies, and those policies happen 336 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 4: to be very beneficial to them, you know, and so 337 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 4: it will help them commercially. But it is much more 338 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 4: of a building relationships and then exposing the politician to 339 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 4: concepts that are advantageous to the person that's getting involved. 340 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 4: Then it is just like some kind of financial quid proquo, 341 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 4: and certainly what you see and as a consequence of that, 342 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 4: there are some things that have been banned in various places. 343 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 4: I think that property developers cannot donate money to anybody 344 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 4: associated with planning. 345 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: New South Wows. I think you can't properly developers can't 346 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: donate anything to anyone. 347 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and so like that was probably because of 348 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 4: the historical paper bag issues that I flagged, right, But 349 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 4: I think in general most of the interactions and so 350 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 4: definitely there are some politicians that will get more support 351 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 4: because their portfolios involve more money. Then there's like her, 352 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 4: and so that's how most of the stuff I see works. 353 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 4: And I don't really have a problem with any of that. 354 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 4: And you can say, well, the person who doesn't donate 355 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 4: money doesn't get access to sit with a politician, and 356 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 4: that's true, but I can extend that argument to pretty 357 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 4: much everything in society. And then you have hardcore lobbying, 358 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 4: which I've so I know lobbyists, but I haven't been 359 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 4: involved in hard core lobbying. And that is literally as 360 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 4: simple as instead of you going and donating the money 361 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 4: and forming the relationship, which takes a lot of time 362 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 4: and effort and so forth, there are these middle people 363 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 4: called lobbyists that have, at the best they've got deep 364 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 4: relationships with existing ministers and they will basically say, if 365 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 4: you pay us, we will go and organize a meeting 366 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 4: or a lunch or whatever it might be with these ministers, 367 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 4: and you can go and form a relationship and skip 368 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 4: the whole middle steps of like the whole process, and 369 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 4: when you're not around, we'll keep talking to them about 370 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 4: why what you think is the right way to think 371 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 4: and why that should be whatever it might be. But ultimately, 372 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 4: in my experience, if a minister thinks that a particular 373 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:13,880 Speaker 4: approach by someone is going to be bad, then they're 374 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 4: not going to do that, no matter how much lobbying 375 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:18,479 Speaker 4: they've had or how much money has been donated to them. 376 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:20,199 Speaker 4: And as I said, there's probably exceptions to that, I 377 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 4: don't see them, but that's generally how political interactions work. 378 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 4: And the last thing I'll say is if you've been 379 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 4: in opposition for a long time and you look unlucky 380 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 4: to win elections, which was kind of the Liberal Party 381 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 4: in the last election. I know because I was ver 382 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 4: in Victoria, because I was very involved with them. People 383 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 4: like they barely even bother loving you because like there 384 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 4: is nothing that you can help them within opposition, and 385 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 4: so this is really the domain of people that are 386 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 4: in power, especially people that have been in power for 387 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 4: a long time. 388 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 1: I actually forgot the one instance I had, and it 389 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 1: wasn't lobbying. It was involving politicians. It was probably two 390 00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:59,400 Speaker 1: years after, maybe not even that, maybe one year after 391 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 1: Dan Andrew, who's got elected Premier Victoria and before he 392 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: became for Baltimore, so he was still back there. He 393 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:07,360 Speaker 1: was like a nice enough guy and was really keen 394 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: to engage with business and went to this law firm, 395 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 1: one of the biggest, not in the biggest law firms, 396 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:14,679 Speaker 1: quite a big law firm. There's probably twenty people in 397 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: the room. I was by far the lowest ranked person. 398 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: I was the the people who ran from big business 399 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: to very big businesses, and I was somehow in there. 400 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:24,199 Speaker 1: And back then we were much smaller business, so it 401 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: was just almost comical I was in there. I didn't 402 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: say anything, obviously, because it was just would have been ridiculous. 403 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,360 Speaker 1: But every other person in there was asking Dan Andrews 404 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: for like ritual favors, and he was writing them down 405 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: on a notepad. Someone had said, I want to can 406 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 1: you pill win an extra wharf to house our cruise ships, 407 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: or we need something to do something. He was literally 408 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: taking notes like he's a little school kid trying to 409 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:44,679 Speaker 1: impress these big business but it was it was as 410 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: close to Crony's anything I've ever seen. 411 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 4: Well, that doesn't but that doesn't mean he was going 412 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 4: to do them right. Like probably what he would do 413 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 4: is who knows he was cusically writing them down, I know, 414 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 4: but probably there's some theater in that as well, right, 415 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 4: Like you got these people and they want to feel 416 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 4: like they're having in launce because they've donated money. 417 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:04,640 Speaker 1: There's no donations. This is just like a law firm 418 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: did it and our clients came, but there was no 419 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 1: money changing hands. 420 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 4: I will not at that function. But there has to 421 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 4: be money changing hands somewhere in politics, because like the 422 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 4: stock in trade of politicians is donations, and so I 423 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 4: think maybe the act of writing it down could have 424 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 4: been part of the theater of making those people feel 425 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 4: like they were being listened to. 426 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: That's certainly possible anyway, Like Dan was a much nicer 427 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: guy than what it became later on it. At this 428 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: point he seemed like perfectly affable and friendly in that roundtable. 429 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 1: But I certainly didn't ask for anything, and I suspect 430 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have achieved anything I had. But that was 431 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 1: the only time I've really been involved in that zurac canery. 432 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 4: In my experience, politicians in Australia are much more willing 433 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 4: to do devious things to get votes than they are 434 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 4: to get money like that. That is one of the 435 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 4: characteristics of Australian politics. 436 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 1: On that note, thanks you for the great question again, Jka, 437 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: one of our top question askers, and we'll go. 438 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:00,400 Speaker 2: To a quick breakback in minute. 439 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 1: You have you ever used venture debt or growth credit 440 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: in your businesses? 441 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 2: I hav't used it, but I think it's one of 442 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 2: the more interesting innovations that has come to growth capital 443 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 2: in the last decade. And I think, what if I 444 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 2: said to you, I don't think it gets enough credit. 445 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: You're totally right. The team that Mighty Partner has been 446 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: funding scaling Aussie businesses for five years by providing up 447 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,360 Speaker 1: to five million dollars in flexible credit designed for high 448 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 1: growth businesses. 449 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 2: Well, five million dollars actually is a ton of money. 450 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:30,880 Speaker 2: It's amazing it's that high. That's some serious capital exactly. 451 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 1: Some companies used to accelerate growth fund and acquisition or 452 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,919 Speaker 1: extend runway, but growth credit can be a cheaper and 453 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,640 Speaker 1: more flexible option without having to give up equity. 454 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 2: I totally agree with you. I think people are very 455 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 2: fixated on interest rate when it comes to ventured it, 456 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 2: which I do think is important. But the other side 457 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 2: of the coin is what the value of the equity is. 458 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 2: That ultimately you're giving up when you take venture funding. 459 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: Totally and Mighty Partners have funded companies like Amber Electric, 460 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 1: Wi Money and Sprint Law. And if you want to 461 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: find a smarter way to fund your next far, go 462 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:05,120 Speaker 1: to Mighty Partners, dot com, dot au, forward slash Contrarians 463 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:05,880 Speaker 1: and we're back. 464 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 3: Question three, Mike, all right, I think this will be 465 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,679 Speaker 3: a good one. It's from Duncan Perkins again on the 466 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 3: LinkedIn and just a reminder, LinkedIn, thread, voicemail, Spotify comments. 467 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 3: There's so many ways to contribute. This is how he's 468 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 3: worded the question financial literacy. Should it be the responsibility 469 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 3: of parents or teachers? 470 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,640 Speaker 1: I'm gonn answer this and give you can give your take. 471 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: I actually don't think it's mutually exclusive. I think it's both, 472 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,199 Speaker 1: and to a great extent, a lot of people are 473 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: financial literate themselves, so so you and I have spent 474 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: our lifetime talking about and doing this stuff. So I'm 475 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 1: very comfortable teaching my kids about financial stuff. But I 476 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: think the vast majority of parents don't have the ability 477 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 1: to or know how to teach it, So I think 478 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: asking parents to teach it is unfair. I think we 479 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 1: have talked to me. I think it's crazy there's not 480 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: more focus put on financial literacy and both primary and 481 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: secondary school. So I think it should absolutely be part 482 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: of the curriculum. I think if you have the ability 483 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,640 Speaker 1: as a parent to educate your kids on financial literacy, 484 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 1: you should that. Obviously, the hurdle is you need to 485 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 1: know yourself. 486 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 4: Well, I'm going to channel my inner Adam Schwab now 487 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 4: with my comment. School is fascical. It's an absolute what 488 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 4: goes on in school, Like the stuff that kids are 489 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 4: being taught. Has that whole concept of school changed in 490 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 4: the last one hundred years, Like the stuff that kids 491 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 4: are being taught, it's frankly completely ridiculous. And why in 492 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 4: maths are you teaching kids like very complicated like trigonometry, 493 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 4: and you're not teaching them what a budget algebraic? And 494 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 4: you're not teaching them what credit card debt looks like, 495 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 4: and what compound interest does and what it means when 496 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 4: they say this is the minimum payment and what that 497 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 4: actually does to you if you make the minimum payment, 498 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 4: and what a home loan is and what borrowing capacity 499 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,880 Speaker 4: is and all of these types of things that are 500 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 4: fundamentally important in society. I mean every single person in 501 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 4: their day to day life is going to be budgeting 502 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 4: for a household and almost nobody is going to be 503 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 4: doing calculus. But like, and I understand that you want 504 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 4: to push great and strong math students down the road 505 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 4: of calculus. I'm not diminishing that I love maths, right, 506 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 4: But my argument is I pick on maths in particular 507 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:24,400 Speaker 4: because the majority of kids that go through especially secondary school, 508 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 4: they do not like maths. A lot of them really 509 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 4: struggle through it. They're being taught mathematical concepts that are 510 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 4: not very useful, and I don't understand the point of 511 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 4: any of that. Just go and teach them daily life 512 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,199 Speaker 4: maths that they're going to be able to understand, and 513 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 4: then they're going to say, thank goodness, I was taught this. 514 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 4: How could kids How could kids ten years ago not 515 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 4: have been taught this? How would they know? And the 516 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 4: answer is they have no idea. And so I think 517 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 4: I've got a much broader view about school. I think 518 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 4: there should just be almost like a complete overhaul of 519 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,159 Speaker 4: the school curriculum. Like I think it's very poor. I 520 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 4: think like we can just slightly rant on the tail 521 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,160 Speaker 4: tangents of this and say, like, you know, you're talking 522 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 4: about financial literacy or like civics would be important to 523 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 4: teach at school as well, because it would be nice 524 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,360 Speaker 4: if had democratic society survived for a few more generations, 525 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 4: and so I'd be keen on teaching that. You know, 526 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,879 Speaker 4: at least now some wellness stuff is coming into school. 527 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 4: I think wellness, personal wellness and self awareness, et cetera, 528 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 4: is good. But I think financial literacy I totally agree 529 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 4: with you. It should be in primary school. It should 530 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 4: be in secondary school. Forget about parents teaching kids. The 531 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 4: first cohorts of kids that go through this, they're going 532 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,400 Speaker 4: to be teaching their parents about financial literacy. The number 533 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 4: of Australians that have are financially literate it's minimal. It's minimal. 534 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 4: You know that because there are so many credit card 535 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 4: revolvers that go and accumulate credit card debt and don't 536 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 4: pay it all off at the end of the month. 537 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 4: If you went through any course that taught you financial literacy, 538 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 4: nobody would be doing that. There'll be no viable credit 539 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,919 Speaker 4: card industry in Australia. So yeah, I totally agree with 540 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 4: you about that. 541 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: I didn't realize the question was what I think of 542 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: school systems. I totally agree. I think ninety percent of 543 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,400 Speaker 1: what people are taught in school is a waste of time, 544 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 1: not just mass like chemistry, biology, languages, it's almost all 545 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: a waste of time. Half for what you learn English 546 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: as a waste time. I reading these crap books you 547 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: never read otherwise, Like I think most of school is 548 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: a glorified baby babysitting service. They cost fifty grand a 549 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: year begin It's mostly ridiculous. But you're right. I couldn't 550 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 1: agree more. 551 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 4: Why you've made me realize with your response to my 552 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:20,959 Speaker 4: broadening the question is that I did not at all 553 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 4: channel Adam Shwarp when I thought that I did, because 554 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 4: nowhere near close enough to the fringes. Like I like 555 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 4: biology in all the sciences. I agree with you on English, 556 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 4: like the English. A lot of the choices in English 557 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 4: are pretty terrible, right, And like we could expand this 558 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 4: question and say, you know, the idea that says the 559 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:41,359 Speaker 4: whole of the education system should be terrified of generative 560 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 4: AI and try to ban it when every single kid 561 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,400 Speaker 4: coming out of school is going to be extensively involved 562 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 4: in generative AI as part of their day job. Almost certainly, 563 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 4: like that's the wrong approach, right, just trying to hide 564 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 4: from it and prohibit it. So yeah, maybe someone will 565 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 4: ask that question at some point, like how do you 566 00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 4: think we should fix schools? But from a financial literacy 567 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 4: point view, yeah, I think we are totally aligned on that, 568 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 4: and I'm like, this should be one of the constant 569 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:12,880 Speaker 4: themes during primary and secondary school should be preparing kids 570 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 4: so that they can be financially literate, financially responsible, successful adults. 571 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that includes being torn having invest Obviously, we've 572 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,159 Speaker 1: talked about the credit card stuff that's really relevant. How 573 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: does a mortgage work? As you said, there's there's lots 574 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: of different types of financial knowledge that's relevant that I 575 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 1: think most people, most adults don't know. And even like 576 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: smart and I go invest some banker friends who don't 577 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: know a bunch of this stuff. So there's there's lots 578 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: of stuff to learn. And we just agree. I think 579 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 1: we're both one hundred percent agree we're teaching the wrong 580 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,120 Speaker 1: stuff and scores waste time. 581 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 2: And when they do hang on, hang on. When they 582 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 2: do teach, then when they try to teach financial literacy, 583 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 2: they do dumb things like you know this stock market game? 584 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 2: Were you exposed to that at school. 585 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's always that. 586 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's always the wrong lesson. Like that game is 587 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 4: pick some random stocks, hold them for a very short 588 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 4: period of time, and let's see who got the most money. 589 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 4: It's like the horses, right, It's so, it's so, it's 590 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 4: so terrible. Before you shut this down, I'm going to 591 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 4: just do something very irregular, and I'm going to answer 592 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 4: one more answer to the early question that we had, 593 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 4: which is what's something that I've changed my view on overtime, 594 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,959 Speaker 4: which is I think my parents are winners. And I'm 595 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 4: very happy that they were my parents and that I 596 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 4: was lucky they raised me, because that was not my 597 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 4: view when I was a kid. 598 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,200 Speaker 1: It's lovely. I think my view of my parents was 599 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: they they did incredibly well. My dad was a builder 600 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 1: and copped the recession and went and opened up a cafe. 601 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,879 Speaker 1: Mum helped him, and likewise, they did incredibly well to 602 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 1: put us through private schools and and all that stuff 603 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,360 Speaker 1: when there was a huge sacrifice. So I think, likewise. 604 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 2: Our team, did you think your parents were winners? 605 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: I thought I did. I always very much understood how 606 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 1: hard it was to do what they did, and like 607 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,679 Speaker 1: they weren't we were never poor. We were always very 608 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,120 Speaker 1: middle class. It's like upper middle class, you can argue, 609 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: but it certainly wasn't easy. So I think I'm probably 610 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 1: more positive. It sounds like the you. 611 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 4: Were, and I think I was a more on When 612 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 4: I was like eighteen, My view of my parents, like 613 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 4: I was like very immature about like basically thought they 614 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 4: should be superstars in every aspect of life. And I 615 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 4: thought I couldn't understand why, like they're not billionaires. Like 616 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 4: I think that was my view, Like I was so stupid. 617 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,120 Speaker 4: Right now, what I understand is, I think the main 618 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,879 Speaker 4: reason they weren't billionaires because they're fundamentally very good people 619 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 4: at arts. But like I think, you know, I very 620 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 4: much underappreciated my parents, which is kind of changed over time, 621 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 4: and I would say predominantly changed in the last decade. 622 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: That's lovely. On that note, we better end. This has 623 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 1: been a great ask us anything as always, please send 624 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 1: your questions in we love getting them, and we're back 625 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: on Tuesday for our next big episode. I did, how 626 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: would you check your life trauma or TPD insurance? 627 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 2: I would say I never check it, and I'm quite 628 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 2: neglectful with that Altogether. 629 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: I'm blaming. I think I checked mine for about ten years. 630 00:28:57,880 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: I just kept paying more and more every year, and 631 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 1: this has got ridiculous. 632 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm totally with you on that. I mean, people 633 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 2: approached me about life insurance periodically and I kind of 634 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 2: just fob them off and really don't pay any attention 635 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 2: to it. I wouldn't even know where to pay attention. 636 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 2: Actually I have it, but I was so slack. 637 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: I kept paying a year on year, and I got 638 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 1: ahold of the team from Safety Nest and I'm curious 639 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: for not doing this sooner. Why So, the safety Nest 640 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: team did a complete check of all my different policies 641 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: life trauma TBD and they literally in a few hours 642 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: able to restructure my policies and remove allway unecessary stuff 643 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: I was paying for I didn't need, and actually, say, 644 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 1: five thousand dollars a year. 645 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's There is nobody that would be 646 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 2: more frustrated about wasting money than you think of all 647 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 2: of the things that you can spend it on. I 648 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 2: mean literally no food or drink, you bar. 649 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: But well, it's a bit of sweet because I love 650 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: saving money, but I hate the fact I wasn't saving 651 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: money for team year, so it's just the cash saving. 652 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: The safety Nest team also recommended different cub up for 653 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: our kids so I didn't realize and get kidd insurance 654 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 1: as well. Ex gives you extra peace of mind. The 655 00:29:57,920 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: last thing you want to do is leave your partner 656 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: and found in a really tough position. If God forbid, 657 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: something terrible happens, and if you don't have or aren't 658 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,959 Speaker 1: properly being advised for critical insurances to protect you and 659 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 1: your family, you can get in touch with the team 660 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: at safety Nest, who'll give our listeners a free, no 661 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 1: obligation consultation to make sure you're optimizing spend and policies. 662 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: Just go to safetynest dot com dot au and click 663 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: to get started, or give them a call on one 664 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 1: three hundred zero five five nine two two