1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,200 S1: I'm Jacqueline Maley, and you're listening to Inside Politics from 2 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:06,400 S1: the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. 3 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:11,080 S1: As usual, I am joined by our chief political correspondent, 4 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:15,760 S1: Paul Satchell, who joins me from Canberra. Paul here at 5 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,800 S1: Inside Politics were generally pretty low fi, but how much 6 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,880 S1: do you use artificial intelligence in the course of your work? 7 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:25,360 S2: Well, I've had a few conversations with people about this 8 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:30,600 S2: this week actually, and I'm actually surprisingly and almost embarrassingly 9 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,640 S2: bad with technology. My default when I have a tech issue, 10 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,000 S2: is to call the IT guys without even trying to 11 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,559 S2: have a crack. I don't have a AI app on 12 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:40,760 S2: my phone, and I feel like I'm at the point 13 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:42,559 S2: where if I don't start to learn the skills to 14 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:45,120 S2: just do some basic stuff, not write stories, but do 15 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:48,680 S2: research and other admin things, I will be left behind. 16 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,400 S2: Like Australia might be in the AI arms race, so 17 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:52,920 S2: I need I need to get on to it. I 18 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:54,960 S2: think I'm a bit embarrassed by my lack of use. 19 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:55,480 S1: You'll be. 20 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:55,720 S2: The. 21 00:00:55,720 --> 00:01:00,260 S1: Basket weaver. The basket weaver of the press gallery. Um, look, I'm. also. 22 00:01:00,300 --> 00:01:02,300 S1: I would not say that no one could accuse me 23 00:01:02,300 --> 00:01:05,220 S1: of being a tech genius, but I definitely use AI 24 00:01:05,740 --> 00:01:08,740 S1: in sort of my personal life, if that like for, 25 00:01:08,780 --> 00:01:12,740 S1: you know, various bits and pieces like home maintenance, etc. 26 00:01:12,740 --> 00:01:15,979 S1: and in terms of my work, I use it increasingly 27 00:01:15,980 --> 00:01:18,700 S1: a lot. Like I use it for transcripts. I use, um, 28 00:01:18,780 --> 00:01:20,940 S1: Google pinpoint, which is a really good tool if you 29 00:01:20,940 --> 00:01:23,020 S1: want to put a lot of documents together. I use 30 00:01:23,020 --> 00:01:25,300 S1: it to search documents, etc. I would never in a 31 00:01:25,300 --> 00:01:28,100 S1: million years use it to write anything, but I'm sure 32 00:01:28,100 --> 00:01:30,700 S1: there are probably journalists who already do. And of course 33 00:01:30,700 --> 00:01:34,300 S1: we're talking about AI because the Prime Minister gave a 34 00:01:34,300 --> 00:01:37,220 S1: landmark speech this week about the government's approach to AI. 35 00:01:37,260 --> 00:01:40,100 S1: It's an issue that's been bubbling away for them politically 36 00:01:40,100 --> 00:01:43,060 S1: on a few fronts, most notably with data centres and 37 00:01:43,100 --> 00:01:45,940 S1: sort of local and community opposition to data centres and 38 00:01:45,940 --> 00:01:49,140 S1: bigger questions about how much resources these things are going 39 00:01:49,180 --> 00:01:51,580 S1: to suck up. And then also, there's been lobbying to 40 00:01:51,620 --> 00:01:55,460 S1: the government by artists, musicians, authors about the protection of 41 00:01:55,460 --> 00:01:58,560 S1: copyright laws, because the big AI companies basically have been 42 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,720 S1: asking or lobbying the government for a blanket exemption to 43 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,080 S1: copyright law so they can take all of this artistic 44 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,520 S1: content and use it to train their AI models, as 45 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:10,239 S1: they call it. So. Albanese gave a speech this week 46 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:13,880 S1: on Wednesday at his alma mater, at which is Sydney University. 47 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:15,760 S1: What did he say in the speech? 48 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:19,600 S2: Yeah, it was a highly anticipated speech. This was on 49 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:23,400 S2: Wednesday at lunchtime. It was his first big set piece 50 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,560 S2: moment to speak at length about AI. 51 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:32,880 S3: Australians have always been enthusiastic adopters of new technology, and 52 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,920 S3: AI is, of course, already part of our daily lives. 53 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,920 S2: The opportunities it presents, the risks it presents, how it 54 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:44,440 S2: might affect the workforce, what it might mean for governments 55 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:48,240 S2: and more broadly, how the government saw AI almost in 56 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:52,080 S2: a moral sense. And he did actually quote the papal 57 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:55,280 S2: encyclical on AI from the new pope last year, which 58 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:57,100 S2: made waves Also. 59 00:02:57,260 --> 00:03:02,019 S3: Because the real issues the AI presents are not technical ones. 60 00:03:02,220 --> 00:03:07,540 S3: They are economic ones, legal ones, social ones. And as 61 00:03:07,540 --> 00:03:11,579 S3: Pope Leo has made clear in his superb first papal 62 00:03:11,580 --> 00:03:18,380 S3: encyclical Magnifica Humanitatis, they is also a moral and a 63 00:03:18,380 --> 00:03:23,220 S3: spiritual one. They are tests of our national values. 64 00:03:23,460 --> 00:03:27,860 S2: And really, in a political sense, the key intent from 65 00:03:27,860 --> 00:03:31,460 S2: the Prime Minister was to let all the groups who 66 00:03:31,460 --> 00:03:34,780 S2: are becoming increasingly interested in this topic know that the 67 00:03:34,780 --> 00:03:38,700 S2: government was aware that there was bubbling concern about job losses. 68 00:03:38,900 --> 00:03:42,340 S2: It understood that there were local communities who felt uncomfortable 69 00:03:42,340 --> 00:03:45,580 S2: about water usage and potential electricity price spikes caused by 70 00:03:45,580 --> 00:03:50,060 S2: data centres, and particularly to the union movement. It knew 71 00:03:50,100 --> 00:03:52,220 S2: that there were the potential, there was the potential for 72 00:03:52,220 --> 00:03:55,380 S2: huge economic upheaval, and that, unlike a year ago, when 73 00:03:55,380 --> 00:03:58,960 S2: the government rejected the idea of making specific laws for AI, 74 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,640 S2: which were put forward by the then industry minister Ed Husic, 75 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:05,040 S2: who was dumped from cabinet, has become quite a critic 76 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:08,400 S2: of Albanese. The government was now of the view that 77 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,520 S2: there was a requirement to put something in legislation not 78 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:16,000 S2: quite as expansive and as interventionist as the EU's regulatory 79 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,080 S2: approach from a couple of years ago, which was, has 80 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,279 S2: been unwound and has left the EU a bit behind 81 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,440 S2: in the AI race. But some significant new, you know, 82 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:27,080 S2: guardrails as the buzzword to put around this new emerging technology, 83 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:28,960 S2: which we'll see in legislation next year. 84 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,280 S1: Yeah. So they're talking about legislation early next year, which 85 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,599 S1: will basically set out AI regulatory standards. There's going to 86 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,200 S1: be an office AI office of AI, which will sit 87 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,080 S1: in his own department, the Prime Minister and Department of 88 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:43,360 S1: Prime Minister and Cabinet. He said it was a bigger 89 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,160 S1: challenge than social media. And he also said with the 90 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:48,680 S1: data centres that they're going to have to generate at 91 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:52,720 S1: least as much electricity as they soak up. And I 92 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:56,100 S1: think the same with water. And the other question with 93 00:04:56,140 --> 00:04:57,979 S1: the data centers is whether or not they're going to 94 00:04:57,980 --> 00:05:01,540 S1: take resources and even land away from construction, home construction, 95 00:05:01,540 --> 00:05:04,299 S1: which we so desperately need. So he, he sort of 96 00:05:04,339 --> 00:05:05,980 S1: had some words to say on that and said that, 97 00:05:06,020 --> 00:05:08,580 S1: you know, they'll be required to build on land that 98 00:05:08,820 --> 00:05:10,740 S1: couldn't is not going to be used to build, build 99 00:05:10,740 --> 00:05:13,460 S1: houses on. Um, how much of this is sort of 100 00:05:13,500 --> 00:05:16,820 S1: about jobs? Because the Australian Council of Trade Union president 101 00:05:16,820 --> 00:05:19,500 S1: Sally McManus has been out, she's been pretty punchy in 102 00:05:19,500 --> 00:05:22,580 S1: her statements and said, you know, if businesses think that 103 00:05:22,580 --> 00:05:25,299 S1: this is just an opportunity to cut lots of workers, 104 00:05:25,300 --> 00:05:27,300 S1: then they're going to have a fight on their hands. 105 00:05:27,540 --> 00:05:30,060 S1: How much of Albanese's speech was about placating the unions, 106 00:05:30,060 --> 00:05:32,740 S1: particularly in the lead up to the ALP National conference? 107 00:05:32,779 --> 00:05:35,339 S2: Yeah, I thought there was some some of his firmest 108 00:05:35,339 --> 00:05:40,780 S2: language yet, outlining his view that the AI revolution should 109 00:05:40,779 --> 00:05:43,980 S2: not be used to replace workers, but rather should be 110 00:05:43,980 --> 00:05:48,180 S2: used to augment workers, make them more productive. Of course, 111 00:05:48,180 --> 00:05:51,020 S2: he was keen to say that he wasn't a Luddite 112 00:05:51,060 --> 00:05:54,760 S2: approach in this speech. He was, He emphasized, and also 113 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,880 S2: on 730 report on ABC at night time, emphasized that 114 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,000 S2: it would be folly to try and keep this technology 115 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,920 S2: out of workforces. He encouraged workers to embrace it where 116 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,800 S2: they could. But he sent a pretty clear signal to 117 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,800 S2: big corporate firms in Australia that he wouldn't he would 118 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,039 S2: not like to see mass layoffs, which would cause potentially 119 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:19,600 S2: social upheaval, create put pressure on, you know, workers insurance 120 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:23,880 S2: schemes and generally create anxiety in the community. This is 121 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,880 S2: obviously in line with the union movement. On the other hand, 122 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,280 S2: and this is what's so tricky and murky about this 123 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:34,000 S2: policy area because there are so many competing imperatives here. He, 124 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:36,440 S2: on the other hand, said to big AI firms like 125 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,479 S2: Anthropic and Google and Microsoft, who are keen to play 126 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,600 S2: out not just billions, but tens and potentially hundreds of 127 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,120 S2: billions of dollars into Australia to build these data centres, 128 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,600 S2: which they've already been doing in one. In 2024, we 129 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:52,660 S2: were the second biggest data centre investment destination in the world. 130 00:06:52,660 --> 00:06:54,740 S2: I've seen some dispute on those figures, but the government 131 00:06:54,740 --> 00:06:56,659 S2: repeatedly says it, and I think there is good evidence 132 00:06:56,660 --> 00:06:59,020 S2: for it. So this is already occurring in Australia. And 133 00:06:59,020 --> 00:07:01,620 S2: he's telling those firms who want to invest even more, 134 00:07:01,820 --> 00:07:05,580 S2: and anthropic wants Australia to become its second home, that 135 00:07:05,620 --> 00:07:08,540 S2: these guidelines and these new laws, you know, the detail 136 00:07:08,540 --> 00:07:10,340 S2: of which we've not seen, and we'll see how rigid 137 00:07:10,340 --> 00:07:15,020 S2: they are, will, in his view, create more investor certainty 138 00:07:15,180 --> 00:07:18,980 S2: and facilitate increased investment also. So on the one hand, 139 00:07:19,020 --> 00:07:21,300 S2: he's saying we want to protect jobs. On the other hand, 140 00:07:21,340 --> 00:07:24,180 S2: he's saying we want to maintain sovereignty, build up our 141 00:07:24,180 --> 00:07:26,500 S2: own AI tools. And then on a, you know, you 142 00:07:26,500 --> 00:07:28,700 S2: don't have three hands. So my metaphor is not really 143 00:07:28,700 --> 00:07:31,300 S2: working here, but on on the other side, he's telling 144 00:07:31,340 --> 00:07:34,980 S2: for big US tech behemoths who have famously, if they 145 00:07:34,980 --> 00:07:38,220 S2: follow the, the, the pattern of their social media counterparts 146 00:07:38,500 --> 00:07:43,620 S2: do not really respect sovereign nations laws. They're telling those 147 00:07:43,620 --> 00:07:46,140 S2: firms that they want more investment and that we're open 148 00:07:46,140 --> 00:07:48,980 S2: for business. So there was a message for all all 149 00:07:48,980 --> 00:07:50,560 S2: the stakeholder groups on Wednesday. 150 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,080 S1: Yeah, it was it was very upbeat. It was kind 151 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:55,880 S1: of reassuring. He he was definitely downplayed the risks or 152 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,560 S1: he didn't really talk about the risks. And he certainly 153 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,440 S1: didn't talk about what some people, including economists and some 154 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:05,920 S1: of the AI architects themselves think of as basically a threat, 155 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:09,440 S1: an existential threat to humanity. How was the business response 156 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:11,320 S1: to this speech? Because he was really keen to talk 157 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,720 S1: up the the investment prospects, and that Australia is going 158 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:16,679 S1: to be a really good environment to invest in. 159 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,880 S2: Mhm. I think most of the stakeholders were keen to 160 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:24,400 S2: give the Prime Minister credit for trying to take grip 161 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,880 S2: of such an unwieldy policy area as he tends to do. 162 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:31,080 S2: His his approach as a politician is to try and 163 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:35,360 S2: bring disparate groups together to create commonality and try and 164 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,680 S2: move forward with a sense of cooperation. He invoked the 165 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:42,280 S2: Hawke Keating era accord when Australia was facing a moment 166 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:46,360 S2: of globalization, Thatcher and Reagan took a more laissez faire 167 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:50,740 S2: approach to that period, Where is that that that very 168 00:08:50,740 --> 00:08:54,700 S2: successful labor government sought to create a greater social welfare 169 00:08:54,740 --> 00:08:57,860 S2: dividend at that time. So he invoked that labor spirit 170 00:08:57,860 --> 00:09:00,140 S2: to say that business and unions and government needed to 171 00:09:00,140 --> 00:09:04,500 S2: come together to ensure we were not left behind, but 172 00:09:04,500 --> 00:09:08,100 S2: also make sure that there was a of the profits 173 00:09:08,100 --> 00:09:11,700 S2: that would be made, a significant proportion of that profit 174 00:09:11,700 --> 00:09:15,340 S2: would flow to workers, not just firms. Now, that's that's 175 00:09:15,380 --> 00:09:18,260 S2: a Pollyanna ish view. It would be fantastic if Australia 176 00:09:18,300 --> 00:09:21,339 S2: could go down that route. But the unsaid part of 177 00:09:21,340 --> 00:09:23,900 S2: Albanese's speech, and, you know, some of the business figures 178 00:09:23,900 --> 00:09:26,540 S2: pointed this out is that we have no idea how 179 00:09:26,540 --> 00:09:31,100 S2: this technology will play out. There are wildly different forecasts 180 00:09:31,100 --> 00:09:33,699 S2: from different economists, and there seems to be, if you 181 00:09:33,700 --> 00:09:36,620 S2: go by a statement that 200 very prominent economists put 182 00:09:36,620 --> 00:09:40,100 S2: out earlier this week in the US, including 15 Nobel laureates, 183 00:09:40,300 --> 00:09:42,900 S2: there is a growing consensus that there might be more 184 00:09:42,900 --> 00:09:47,400 S2: speedy and highly disruptive change in the workforce in the 185 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,640 S2: space of 5 or 10 years than than the median opinion. 186 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,000 S2: And The economist and the economist world was a year ago. 187 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,520 S2: So the business community and the AI firms themselves were 188 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,520 S2: happy that Albanese was seeming to seize the moment. But 189 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:02,559 S2: there was also a kind of let's wait and see 190 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:05,720 S2: what we actually are provided here by way of legislation. 191 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:10,240 S1: Yeah, there's so much unknown about the layoffs question. I think, um, 192 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:13,760 S1: the federal Department of Employment and Workplace Relations has put 193 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,600 S1: out a report last week that found no evidence to date, 194 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,240 S1: a broad labor market upheaval driven by AI. However, there 195 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,920 S1: are increasingly economists and even banks. The UBS bank put 196 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:27,040 S1: out an analysis this week that said on a sort 197 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:32,800 S1: of moderate AI adoption scenario, then ASX listed Australian companies 198 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,080 S1: might shed or could potentially shed 10 to 15% of 199 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,760 S1: their workforce. And if it's an extreme adoption or a 200 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:42,360 S1: high adoption scenario, then it could be up to 20% 201 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,280 S1: of their workforces. And I mean, Sally McManus says, well, 202 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:47,420 S1: you know, the companies have got another thing coming if 203 00:10:47,420 --> 00:10:50,020 S1: they think they can lay off workers. But ultimately, the 204 00:10:50,020 --> 00:10:52,260 S1: job of a company is to do its work the 205 00:10:52,260 --> 00:10:56,380 S1: most efficiently it can so as to maximize shareholder returns. 206 00:10:56,380 --> 00:10:59,700 S1: So the heavy adoption of AI could well be in 207 00:10:59,700 --> 00:11:03,819 S1: a company's interest. I mean, there could be an enormous 208 00:11:03,980 --> 00:11:07,060 S1: public policy challenge that we're facing, as we could be 209 00:11:07,059 --> 00:11:09,900 S1: facing around the world. And, you know, a government, a 210 00:11:09,900 --> 00:11:12,699 S1: labor government that is on the side of workers by 211 00:11:12,860 --> 00:11:17,340 S1: ideological bench will could face an enormous conflict. Right? 212 00:11:17,380 --> 00:11:21,980 S2: Absolutely. And that that that labor tradition is why Albanese 213 00:11:22,020 --> 00:11:24,660 S2: has made the noises he's made in this speech. And 214 00:11:24,660 --> 00:11:28,380 S2: at that estimate, you just cited at 10 to 15% turnover. 215 00:11:28,540 --> 00:11:31,340 S2: Even if AI does create a new set of jobs 216 00:11:31,340 --> 00:11:34,420 S2: sometime down the track and ultimately lead to higher living 217 00:11:34,420 --> 00:11:37,460 S2: standards and higher productivity, which is the which is the aim, 218 00:11:37,500 --> 00:11:41,380 S2: the great aim, particularly in a low productivity economy like ours, 219 00:11:41,420 --> 00:11:44,800 S2: that churn in the medium term could could generate a 220 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:49,520 S2: huge level of political tension, unease in this society. People 221 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:53,880 S2: have done research on what the growth in Chinese manufacturing 222 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,679 S2: and exports did to Western societies in the early 2000 223 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:00,679 S2: and onwards, in terms of the reduction in manufacturing jobs 224 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:04,720 S2: in places like America, and even much smaller rates of 225 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:07,880 S2: workforce turnover than 10 to 15%, even in the single 226 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:12,000 S2: digits that that group of workers shifting out of the workforce, 227 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:16,319 S2: needing to find new places to express themselves and find 228 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:21,120 S2: their identity. Caused huge political upheaval, in part led to 229 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,400 S2: the populist moment that we're in, and created a general 230 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,120 S2: sense that the country was on the wrong track. So 231 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,160 S2: we really are heading into a moment where, you know, 232 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,480 S2: far be it for much smarter people than us are 233 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:34,720 S2: trying to get their head around what this means for 234 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:38,600 S2: modern society. It is quite profound. It's quite confusing because 235 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:41,720 S2: there are so many different trade offs and so many possibilities, 236 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,020 S2: and we're in the center of it. So it's a 237 00:12:44,100 --> 00:12:46,340 S2: fun time to be talking about politics. Fun and a 238 00:12:46,340 --> 00:12:46,980 S2: bit scary. 239 00:12:47,540 --> 00:12:49,980 S1: Yeah it is. Particularly when you think that, you know, 240 00:12:50,020 --> 00:12:51,940 S1: if it is sort of entry level or graduate level 241 00:12:51,940 --> 00:12:54,020 S1: jobs that are going to be, um, going to be 242 00:12:54,020 --> 00:12:56,459 S1: defunct because of AI, then it'll be young people coming 243 00:12:56,460 --> 00:12:59,620 S1: out of university or coming out of education, the next generation. 244 00:12:59,620 --> 00:13:01,900 S1: They might, you know, they might be facing mass unemployment. 245 00:13:01,900 --> 00:13:03,580 S1: We don't know. We just don't know. 246 00:13:03,620 --> 00:13:08,580 S2: Yeah. Telemarketers, bank workers, people in software, um, low, low 247 00:13:08,620 --> 00:13:11,939 S2: level lawyers and accountants. It's it journalists. 248 00:13:12,500 --> 00:13:15,500 S1: I think a lot of journalistic jobs could go. Absolutely. 249 00:13:15,540 --> 00:13:18,300 S1: People in the care economy, in service industries are the 250 00:13:18,300 --> 00:13:21,540 S1: ones who are going to be protected. And, um, you know, tradies, 251 00:13:21,580 --> 00:13:25,340 S1: I guess, send your kids into a trade. Um. All right, Paul, 252 00:13:25,340 --> 00:13:28,460 S1: let's switch to sunnier climes. I want you to imagine 253 00:13:28,460 --> 00:13:31,300 S1: we're in Sicily. We're in the resort town of Taormina. 254 00:13:31,500 --> 00:13:34,340 S1: We're staying at the Grand Hotel, San Pietro. At the moment, 255 00:13:34,340 --> 00:13:36,620 S1: we're just about to order some cocktails. We're sitting by 256 00:13:36,620 --> 00:13:40,260 S1: the pool. This is the scenario that Pauline Hanson and 257 00:13:40,260 --> 00:13:45,750 S1: her friend and benefactor, political benefactor Gina Rinehart, are currently facing. 258 00:13:46,110 --> 00:13:48,590 S1: That's where they are right now, according to photographs that 259 00:13:48,590 --> 00:13:51,950 S1: we've just published on our websites. Pauline Hanson has been 260 00:13:51,950 --> 00:13:54,990 S1: in having a hot girl summer in Europe, and she's 261 00:13:54,990 --> 00:13:59,030 S1: been in the UK doing some political business, and now 262 00:13:59,030 --> 00:14:01,550 S1: she's obviously having a few days off in Sicily. Why 263 00:14:01,590 --> 00:14:03,750 S1: is she over in Europe? What's she been doing? 264 00:14:04,550 --> 00:14:06,630 S2: His. Barnaby Joyce been having a hot boy. Summer, would 265 00:14:06,630 --> 00:14:09,070 S2: you say? Because he's been over there to. He's never 266 00:14:09,070 --> 00:14:10,349 S2: been to him that way. Probably. 267 00:14:11,790 --> 00:14:15,189 S1: Maybe he's having a. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think he is. 268 00:14:15,190 --> 00:14:16,670 S1: I hope he stays out of the sun. 269 00:14:17,350 --> 00:14:20,910 S2: So Hanson left Australia after the last sitting of Parliament 270 00:14:20,910 --> 00:14:23,790 S2: when labor passed its budget bills. There's a big five 271 00:14:23,790 --> 00:14:26,750 S2: week break from sittings in Canberra. So there's a little 272 00:14:26,750 --> 00:14:30,390 S2: moment where pollies tend to quite often jet off. But 273 00:14:30,390 --> 00:14:33,350 S2: this is quite a unique trip. Hanson has been in 274 00:14:33,350 --> 00:14:37,790 S2: London for conservative political conferences, the CPAC conference where there's 275 00:14:37,790 --> 00:14:40,450 S2: an Australian variant, and the AAC conference, which is a 276 00:14:40,450 --> 00:14:44,130 S2: bit of a more highbrow version of CPAC. Uh, CPAC 277 00:14:44,130 --> 00:14:47,210 S2: is a, a forum where, uh, which is a really 278 00:14:47,210 --> 00:14:54,850 S2: become the global leader in highlighting the populist agenda. Nigel Farage, many, 279 00:14:54,850 --> 00:14:59,290 S2: many figures from the Trump world. Uh, and increasingly Australian 280 00:14:59,290 --> 00:15:02,650 S2: politicians are part of it as well. Figures like Jacinta Price, 281 00:15:02,810 --> 00:15:06,010 S2: Tony Abbott, various others have spoken at these forums. They 282 00:15:06,050 --> 00:15:10,050 S2: kind of highlight conservative ideas and the agenda of what 283 00:15:10,450 --> 00:15:13,410 S2: many people describe as the new right. Um, so there 284 00:15:13,450 --> 00:15:16,170 S2: is an Australian version of CPAC, but the London and 285 00:15:16,210 --> 00:15:20,330 S2: US versions are places where there's often global attention. Uh, 286 00:15:20,330 --> 00:15:22,570 S2: so she's been over there for those conferences, but she's 287 00:15:22,570 --> 00:15:24,770 S2: also on a little bit of a tour of the 288 00:15:25,250 --> 00:15:31,170 S2: European or more, more, more appropriately UK populist milia, if 289 00:15:31,210 --> 00:15:35,090 S2: you'd like. Um, she's said that she'd meet with Nigel Farage, 290 00:15:35,130 --> 00:15:38,010 S2: the leader of reform UK, who's been in a little 291 00:15:38,050 --> 00:15:41,790 S2: bit of a pickle himself, calling a by election in 292 00:15:41,790 --> 00:15:44,790 S2: his own seat due to a scandal over donations from 293 00:15:44,830 --> 00:15:48,750 S2: a dubious crypto billionaire. That meeting I haven't seen reporting 294 00:15:48,750 --> 00:15:51,310 S2: on yet, I'm not sure if it's occurred. She's also 295 00:15:51,310 --> 00:15:54,110 S2: met with Rupert Lowe, who is a figure who had 296 00:15:54,190 --> 00:15:56,750 S2: defected from the Tories, which is the fair version of 297 00:15:56,750 --> 00:16:00,470 S2: the Liberal Party to reform before being pushed out by 298 00:16:00,470 --> 00:16:03,750 S2: Nigel Farage due to his extreme views, but also his 299 00:16:03,990 --> 00:16:08,310 S2: personal alleged abuse towards other officials in reform. He's now 300 00:16:08,310 --> 00:16:11,310 S2: started a party called restore, which is kind of the 301 00:16:11,350 --> 00:16:15,070 S2: right wing upstart that's, you know, pushing reform to the right. 302 00:16:15,190 --> 00:16:19,470 S2: And most controversially, Hanson has teased but not yet released 303 00:16:19,830 --> 00:16:23,870 S2: a podcast with Tommy Robinson, who's the anti-Islam kind of 304 00:16:23,910 --> 00:16:29,070 S2: provocateur who's been widely condemned by figures including Farage, the 305 00:16:29,070 --> 00:16:33,030 S2: Australian Conservative Andrew Bolt for being a thug who's been 306 00:16:33,030 --> 00:16:36,310 S2: charged with various criminal offences and who has been involved 307 00:16:36,310 --> 00:16:39,290 S2: in a number of scandals where his credibility has been 308 00:16:39,570 --> 00:16:42,690 S2: brought into question. She's been touring the streets of a 309 00:16:42,690 --> 00:16:46,250 S2: town called Luton, which Robinson and others have used to 310 00:16:46,290 --> 00:16:49,810 S2: highlight what they say is the scourge of, you know, 311 00:16:49,850 --> 00:16:53,530 S2: political Islam in Britain. We're yet to see a spotlight 312 00:16:53,530 --> 00:16:56,490 S2: episode by channel seven, which is their version of 60 minutes, 313 00:16:56,770 --> 00:16:58,730 S2: which will air on Sunday, which has some of her 314 00:16:58,770 --> 00:17:02,010 S2: UK trip. She's apparently grilled quite heavily by Liam Bartlett, 315 00:17:02,050 --> 00:17:05,330 S2: the very experienced channel seven reporter who also has a 316 00:17:05,330 --> 00:17:08,450 S2: bust up with Robinson and all of this. And sorry 317 00:17:08,450 --> 00:17:11,410 S2: to drone on. All of this has raised questions even 318 00:17:11,410 --> 00:17:14,290 S2: inside One Nation. I'm trying to write something on this, 319 00:17:14,290 --> 00:17:17,650 S2: which our listeners could read in the next few days 320 00:17:17,650 --> 00:17:20,490 S2: on some of the questions inside One Nation about Hanson's 321 00:17:20,490 --> 00:17:24,050 S2: approach and what their what their questioning is, why she 322 00:17:24,050 --> 00:17:26,810 S2: would go on a trip like this and vacate the 323 00:17:26,810 --> 00:17:31,010 S2: domestic political terrain, giving the coalition much more oxygen than 324 00:17:31,010 --> 00:17:33,929 S2: they've had in a while. And at a moment when 325 00:17:33,930 --> 00:17:37,910 S2: she was polling around 30%, which is an extraordinary figure, um, 326 00:17:37,950 --> 00:17:41,270 S2: leading labor and the coalition, she's dipped in quite a 327 00:17:41,270 --> 00:17:45,230 S2: few polls to the mid 20s, still averaging around 26%. 328 00:17:45,230 --> 00:17:48,310 S2: But the trend is just that she's having she's clearly 329 00:17:48,350 --> 00:17:50,670 S2: having a down moment. And she's taken some really big 330 00:17:50,670 --> 00:17:54,070 S2: hits on her personal popularity numbers as well. So, you know, 331 00:17:54,109 --> 00:17:57,869 S2: it's it's not worth exaggerating. 26% is still a huge number, 332 00:17:57,910 --> 00:18:00,230 S2: but there's there's appears to be a miscalculation. 333 00:18:00,790 --> 00:18:03,430 S1: There still outpolling the coalition. We might add to the, 334 00:18:03,670 --> 00:18:06,110 S1: you know, which is on 23% according to our resolve 335 00:18:06,150 --> 00:18:11,830 S1: political monitor, um, compared to one nation's 26%. So I mean, 336 00:18:11,869 --> 00:18:13,950 S1: she's keen to connect with all these far right figures 337 00:18:13,950 --> 00:18:16,510 S1: from overseas who may or may not be familiar to 338 00:18:16,550 --> 00:18:19,550 S1: Australian voters. I suspect they're really not particularly kind of 339 00:18:19,590 --> 00:18:23,550 S1: low information voters. Um, it's generating some publicity for her in, 340 00:18:23,590 --> 00:18:26,910 S1: you know, our newspapers. I just wonder what the political 341 00:18:26,910 --> 00:18:29,950 S1: strategy is here because, you know, if there are people 342 00:18:29,950 --> 00:18:32,310 S1: at home who are struggling with the cost of living, 343 00:18:32,310 --> 00:18:35,010 S1: living or struggling with whatever they're struggling with, and she 344 00:18:35,050 --> 00:18:37,250 S1: sort of, I don't want to say swanning about Europe, 345 00:18:37,250 --> 00:18:38,970 S1: but it does look a little bit like she's swanning 346 00:18:38,970 --> 00:18:42,889 S1: about Europe. She's she's in this really fancy hotel in, 347 00:18:42,890 --> 00:18:45,850 S1: in Sicily, admittedly, that's a private holiday. She's allowed to 348 00:18:45,850 --> 00:18:48,290 S1: have a private holiday. But even when she met up 349 00:18:48,290 --> 00:18:51,050 S1: with Holly Valance, who's, of course, a former neighbours star 350 00:18:51,290 --> 00:18:54,690 S1: who's recently divorced from like a UK billionaire who was 351 00:18:54,690 --> 00:18:57,610 S1: a strong. Her and her husband or ex-husband were very 352 00:18:57,609 --> 00:19:01,689 S1: strong supporters of, um, of Nigel Farage. And they're sort 353 00:19:01,690 --> 00:19:04,810 S1: of at Blenheim Castle, like they're doing some touristic sightseeing. 354 00:19:04,810 --> 00:19:07,210 S1: I just wonder like, yeah, how does that land with 355 00:19:07,210 --> 00:19:09,170 S1: voters back here that she's trying to win over? 356 00:19:09,330 --> 00:19:11,410 S2: Yeah. Well, this is the question that some of our 357 00:19:11,410 --> 00:19:14,209 S2: own colleagues are asking. She had a poor time at 358 00:19:14,210 --> 00:19:16,130 S2: the Press Club, which we've been been through in length. 359 00:19:16,130 --> 00:19:18,290 S2: So we won't go through that. And, you know, the 360 00:19:18,290 --> 00:19:20,250 S2: argument that some of them and many in the coalition 361 00:19:20,250 --> 00:19:23,570 S2: are surprised she didn't take this course is to, you know, 362 00:19:23,609 --> 00:19:26,810 S2: bed down her position over winter, regain any lost skin 363 00:19:26,810 --> 00:19:30,330 S2: that she had at the Press Club. Instead, she's gone overseas, 364 00:19:30,410 --> 00:19:32,210 S2: met with a bunch of figures that most Australians I 365 00:19:32,210 --> 00:19:36,149 S2: agree with you would have would not know. And if 366 00:19:36,190 --> 00:19:40,109 S2: you're searching for a rationale, and I have been thinking 367 00:19:40,109 --> 00:19:42,070 S2: about this and asking people about this, I guess there's 368 00:19:42,109 --> 00:19:43,990 S2: a there's a few, a few fronts where you could, 369 00:19:44,350 --> 00:19:47,430 S2: you know, create a logical explanation for what she's done. 370 00:19:47,510 --> 00:19:51,590 S2: One is that there's a very influential world of wealthy, populist, 371 00:19:51,590 --> 00:19:55,630 S2: friendly donors and other figures around these conferences. And in 372 00:19:55,670 --> 00:19:58,910 S2: a in a hub financial hub such as London, where 373 00:19:58,950 --> 00:20:02,950 S2: because of Hanson's rise, she's treated as an absolute superstar 374 00:20:02,950 --> 00:20:05,630 S2: in these circles. Now, there's a lot of energy in 375 00:20:05,630 --> 00:20:09,110 S2: the European and North American populist world. She's a darling 376 00:20:09,109 --> 00:20:10,389 S2: in that world. She wants. 377 00:20:10,390 --> 00:20:13,190 S1: We're not allowed to. Australian politicians aren't allowed to take 378 00:20:13,230 --> 00:20:14,750 S1: donations from overseas donors. 379 00:20:14,790 --> 00:20:19,230 S2: Yeah, exactly. So. Well, yeah. Precisely. So there's I imagine 380 00:20:19,230 --> 00:20:22,430 S2: there are wealthy Australians in that scene, such as Holly 381 00:20:22,430 --> 00:20:28,230 S2: Valance and people around Valance and and Reinhart, perhaps. But also, 382 00:20:28,710 --> 00:20:31,550 S2: I guess there's, there's people who can actually donate. And 383 00:20:31,550 --> 00:20:36,609 S2: then there's powerful and wealthy and intelligent figures in the 384 00:20:36,609 --> 00:20:38,650 S2: populist political world, in that part of the world where 385 00:20:38,650 --> 00:20:43,690 S2: she can learn ideas, um, gather resources, find, uh, you know, 386 00:20:43,730 --> 00:20:48,490 S2: recruit helpful pieces in the One Nation jigsaw puzzle to 387 00:20:48,530 --> 00:20:51,970 S2: boost her brand here and attract, you know, thought leadership 388 00:20:51,970 --> 00:20:55,369 S2: and advice and, and, and donors potentially if there are 389 00:20:55,369 --> 00:20:58,850 S2: Australians there. So that that's, that's some of the thinking. 390 00:20:58,890 --> 00:21:01,609 S2: And the other part that was put to me is that, 391 00:21:01,890 --> 00:21:05,369 S2: you know, where Farage has. Nigel Farage has been a, 392 00:21:05,570 --> 00:21:07,650 S2: you know, very potent figure there for 2 or 3 393 00:21:07,650 --> 00:21:10,850 S2: years speaking about what they say are the ills of 394 00:21:10,850 --> 00:21:15,810 S2: mass migration and political Islam. She's trying to latch on 395 00:21:15,850 --> 00:21:20,450 S2: to some of that, to utilise the example of Britain 396 00:21:20,450 --> 00:21:23,290 S2: and to show that to an Australian audience. Now, whether 397 00:21:23,290 --> 00:21:25,130 S2: that lands or whether she appears to be off on 398 00:21:25,130 --> 00:21:27,170 S2: a frolic, people will make their minds up. 399 00:21:27,450 --> 00:21:29,810 S1: I mean, I suppose it makes her look kind of um. Yeah. 400 00:21:29,890 --> 00:21:32,070 S1: She's accepted in these global sort of circles and it 401 00:21:32,070 --> 00:21:33,590 S1: makes her look a bit more it gives her a 402 00:21:33,590 --> 00:21:35,990 S1: higher profile. Maybe people like that, I don't know. We'll 403 00:21:35,990 --> 00:21:39,310 S1: see if it pays any political dividends for her. Meanwhile, 404 00:21:39,310 --> 00:21:41,389 S1: just quickly, there has been a fair bit of reporting 405 00:21:41,390 --> 00:21:44,750 S1: about her Senate colleague, Malcolm Roberts, who is, you know, 406 00:21:44,790 --> 00:21:48,429 S1: fellow fellow One Nation senator who has been, I would say, 407 00:21:48,470 --> 00:21:51,470 S1: on the extremes of Australian political life for his entire 408 00:21:51,710 --> 00:21:54,870 S1: tenure in the Senate. And he has often dabbled in 409 00:21:54,869 --> 00:21:58,310 S1: conspiracy theories, anti-Semitic tropes. And we're seeing a lot of 410 00:21:58,310 --> 00:22:00,750 S1: that reporting come out. He's sort of always done it, 411 00:22:00,750 --> 00:22:02,830 S1: and he's always done these things that would might maybe 412 00:22:02,869 --> 00:22:04,830 S1: cause a bit of outrage on Twitter or whatever, but 413 00:22:04,830 --> 00:22:07,990 S1: it hasn't really been reported in mainstream media like ours. 414 00:22:07,990 --> 00:22:10,910 S1: But now, you know, he's done stuff like he, he 415 00:22:10,950 --> 00:22:17,510 S1: reposted he praised this really notorious anti-Semitic mural image, which 416 00:22:17,510 --> 00:22:20,030 S1: people can read about on our websites. You know, a 417 00:22:20,030 --> 00:22:22,830 S1: lot of it is really, really deep rabbit hole extremist, 418 00:22:22,869 --> 00:22:26,190 S1: sort of right wing conspiracy stuff that if you don't 419 00:22:26,230 --> 00:22:28,350 S1: if you're not across those tropes, then you sort of 420 00:22:28,390 --> 00:22:32,010 S1: wouldn't even recognize them. He also praised Russian President Vladimir 421 00:22:32,050 --> 00:22:35,890 S1: Putin for invading Ukraine. He's endorsed conspiracy theorist Alex Jones, 422 00:22:35,890 --> 00:22:39,490 S1: who's a disgraceful individual from the United States, who, of course, 423 00:22:39,730 --> 00:22:42,369 S1: said that the Sandy hook school massacre was a false 424 00:22:42,369 --> 00:22:45,850 S1: flag operation. And he has insisted that the US was 425 00:22:45,850 --> 00:22:49,050 S1: controlled by globalist sector bankers, which, as we know, is 426 00:22:49,050 --> 00:22:53,770 S1: a common anti-Semitic trope. So, I mean, that's pretty embarrassing 427 00:22:53,770 --> 00:22:56,130 S1: for One Nation, isn't it? Barnaby Joyce has tried to 428 00:22:56,170 --> 00:22:58,930 S1: distance himself from Malcolm Roberts and says those views don't 429 00:22:58,930 --> 00:23:02,730 S1: reflect the party, but clearly they do, because he's a 430 00:23:02,730 --> 00:23:03,490 S1: one nation centre. 431 00:23:03,730 --> 00:23:06,050 S2: And he's a he's a long time very close ally 432 00:23:06,090 --> 00:23:09,409 S2: of Pauline Hanson in Queensland, um, who's been intrinsic to 433 00:23:09,410 --> 00:23:11,210 S2: the One Nation show, even though he's not very well 434 00:23:11,250 --> 00:23:13,689 S2: known in the public. I think you're right. It is embarrassing. 435 00:23:13,690 --> 00:23:16,689 S2: And it, you know, there is a tendency in the 436 00:23:16,690 --> 00:23:20,609 S2: left to label whatever view that a, you know, an 437 00:23:20,609 --> 00:23:23,290 S2: activist may not like as misinformation or conspiracy, but this 438 00:23:23,290 --> 00:23:25,370 S2: is proper deep end lunacy. 439 00:23:25,730 --> 00:23:28,590 S1: It's crazy, crazy stuff. It's like, it's like your grandpa's 440 00:23:28,630 --> 00:23:31,230 S1: gone mental because he spent too much time on YouTube. Like, 441 00:23:31,230 --> 00:23:32,510 S1: it's really mad stuff. 442 00:23:32,550 --> 00:23:36,070 S2: Yeah. That a that a party that wants mainstream attention 443 00:23:36,070 --> 00:23:40,709 S2: would accommodate. This is a sign that it's not a 444 00:23:40,710 --> 00:23:45,870 S2: serious organization which has boundaries. And Pauline Hanson admitted just 445 00:23:45,869 --> 00:23:48,149 S2: in front of the seat, I'm I'm sitting in a 446 00:23:48,150 --> 00:23:51,270 S2: month or two ago to us that her branches have been. 447 00:23:51,310 --> 00:23:53,070 S2: And this is a quote from her. I've seen lots 448 00:23:53,070 --> 00:23:56,110 S2: of people on Twitter criticize me for repeatedly saying this, 449 00:23:56,109 --> 00:23:59,070 S2: but she said the words herself. She's been infiltrated by 450 00:23:59,070 --> 00:24:02,150 S2: extremists in her branches. She's had to shut down four 451 00:24:02,150 --> 00:24:05,710 S2: branches because she can't control the types of characters coming 452 00:24:05,710 --> 00:24:09,190 S2: into her branches. Now, the suspicion is that white supremacist groups, 453 00:24:09,190 --> 00:24:13,270 S2: potentially people with neo-Nazi links and others potentially with views 454 00:24:13,310 --> 00:24:16,629 S2: similar to Malcolm Roberts. Now, those kinds of characters are 455 00:24:16,630 --> 00:24:19,630 S2: absolutely on the fringe of Australian political debate. But if 456 00:24:19,630 --> 00:24:21,949 S2: they see a party leader like Pauline Hanson, who's now 457 00:24:21,950 --> 00:24:25,990 S2: grabbing mainstream attention, hanging out with someone like Tommy Robinson, 458 00:24:26,450 --> 00:24:30,490 S2: then you could only imagine that people who have Malcolm 459 00:24:30,490 --> 00:24:32,729 S2: Roberts view of the world might see an incentive to 460 00:24:32,770 --> 00:24:35,450 S2: try and get themselves into one nation, because they see 461 00:24:35,450 --> 00:24:38,890 S2: people like Roberts and Hansen Fraternising with Tommy Robinson and think, 462 00:24:38,890 --> 00:24:42,010 S2: that's my home. So, you know, One Nation has had 463 00:24:42,010 --> 00:24:45,689 S2: this amazing surge because of the coalition's ineptitude. And it's 464 00:24:45,690 --> 00:24:49,050 S2: it's just been a, you know, in such a parlous position, 465 00:24:49,290 --> 00:24:51,649 S2: labor has obviously activated a lot of people on the 466 00:24:51,650 --> 00:24:54,610 S2: right to feel quite animated about politics. This has led 467 00:24:54,609 --> 00:24:57,570 S2: to a surge to one nation. But as time goes on, 468 00:24:57,609 --> 00:24:59,930 S2: if stories like the ones that you've referenced, written by 469 00:24:59,930 --> 00:25:03,010 S2: our colleague Rob Harris keep emerging, you'd imagine that that 470 00:25:03,010 --> 00:25:05,609 S2: would continue to chip away at One Nation, One Nation's 471 00:25:05,609 --> 00:25:06,770 S2: mainstream credibility. 472 00:25:07,090 --> 00:25:09,570 S1: Yeah, I'm aware that we haven't really talked about The 473 00:25:09,570 --> 00:25:11,929 S1: Coalition or Angus Taylor this podcast, but we're going to 474 00:25:11,930 --> 00:25:14,490 S1: we will next week, I think, because Angus Taylor is 475 00:25:14,530 --> 00:25:16,490 S1: sort of trying to reclaim a bit of political space 476 00:25:16,490 --> 00:25:18,850 S1: for himself. And he gave a speech to the Sydney 477 00:25:18,850 --> 00:25:21,690 S1: Institute this this week that was laid out a little 478 00:25:21,690 --> 00:25:23,690 S1: bit of his vision and gave a sharper attack on 479 00:25:23,690 --> 00:25:25,790 S1: One Nation. We don't have time for that this week, 480 00:25:25,790 --> 00:25:27,950 S1: but we will talk about it next week. Amongst many 481 00:25:27,950 --> 00:25:31,630 S1: other fascinating topics, I'm sure. Um. Paul, when is our 482 00:25:31,630 --> 00:25:33,710 S1: hot girl summer? When are we going to do that? 483 00:25:33,750 --> 00:25:34,110 S2: I spent. 484 00:25:34,150 --> 00:25:34,750 S1: When are we taking. 485 00:25:34,750 --> 00:25:36,870 S2: This? I spent all my money in the US. I'm 486 00:25:36,869 --> 00:25:37,670 S2: done for holidays. 487 00:25:37,710 --> 00:25:40,350 S1: Okay, we'll have to wait for 2027 and take. We're 488 00:25:40,350 --> 00:25:43,149 S1: going to take this show on the road to Sicily. Um, 489 00:25:43,869 --> 00:25:45,429 S1: I look forward to that. And I look forward to 490 00:25:45,430 --> 00:25:47,550 S1: next week too. And we'll just be in Canberra and Sydney. 491 00:25:47,750 --> 00:25:50,149 S2: Thanks for thanks for talking. I'll talk to you next week. 492 00:25:50,390 --> 00:25:51,270 S2: Bye bye. 493 00:25:54,830 --> 00:25:56,629 S1: You can read all of our political news on our 494 00:25:56,630 --> 00:26:02,030 S1: website dot com.au or smh.com.au. Today's episode was produced by 495 00:26:02,070 --> 00:26:05,510 S1: Kai Wong with help from Debbie Harrington. Our executive producer 496 00:26:05,510 --> 00:26:08,430 S1: is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa 497 00:26:08,430 --> 00:26:12,990 S1: Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. Before you go, follow Inside Politics 498 00:26:12,990 --> 00:26:15,350 S1: and leave a review for us on Apple or Spotify. 499 00:26:15,750 --> 00:26:17,950 S1: I'm Jacqueline Maley, thank you for listening.