Speaker 1: Nine podcasts.
Speaker 2: During the accused killer's second week of evidence, it's put
Speaker 2: to her whether a clinic she says she had an
Speaker 2: appointment booked at actually offered gastric bypass surgery. She's also
Speaker 2: pressed by the prosecutor on if she really loved her
Speaker 2: in laws.
Speaker 3: Victoria's mushroom mystery, the mushroom lunch that claimed three lives.
Speaker 4: An Australian family's meal is now the center of a
Speaker 4: homicide investigation.
Speaker 3: The bizarre tragedy now grabbing global headlines.
Speaker 5: Aaron Patterson's alleged victims died after eating a family lunch
Speaker 5: she'd serve them at her home.
Speaker 2: I cannot think of another investigation that has generated this
Speaker 2: level of media and public interest. Four of the guests
Speaker 2: of that lunch were much loved members of this church.
Speaker 6: Only one will ever return.
Speaker 1: People are feeling very heavy with having lost such wonderful people.
Speaker 2: Today, Aaron Pattison remained here inside her home.
Speaker 6: She's continued to plead.
Speaker 4: Her innocence.
Speaker 2: In a court room in Country Victoria, Aaron Patterson is
Speaker 2: on trial accused of using death cap mushrooms to kill.
Speaker 2: She's pleaded not guilty to murdering three of her former
Speaker 2: in laws and attempting to kill a fourth the town's
Speaker 2: church pastor. It's up to the jurors to decide what
Speaker 2: happened when Pattison's loved ones sat down to eat. Aaron
Speaker 2: Patterson is into her second week giving evidence and she's
Speaker 2: still being cross examined by Crown Prosecutor Nnette Rodgers sc Now,
Speaker 2: she has been asked quite a bit about gastric bypass surgery.
Speaker 2: She's previously said in her evidence that she when she
Speaker 2: was referring to potentially needing some support from various members
Speaker 2: of the family around the time of the lunch, including
Speaker 2: her estranged husband, that the medical procedure that she was
Speaker 2: sort of referring to, she says, was the fact that
Speaker 2: she was planning to undergo weight loss surgery.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that was a question that she was really
Speaker 5: pressed on during her evidence by the Crown Prosecutor Annette Rodgers.
Speaker 5: She was asked whether or not this is the particular
Speaker 5: clinic that she went to or had plans to go to,
Speaker 5: and that was an appointment on September thirteen, twenty twenty three,
Speaker 5: the accused woman said, But she also reiterated that that
Speaker 5: was canceled two days earlier on September eleven, twenty twenty three.
Speaker 5: But she maintained in her evidence throughout the trial that
Speaker 5: she wanted to have this gashik band surgery and she
Speaker 5: wanted to keep it a secret. And that's part of
Speaker 5: the reason why she let her family members believe that
Speaker 5: she was ill and potentially needing surgery in the months
Speaker 5: that followed the fatal lunch, because she was hoping that
Speaker 5: that was something that she could keep private because she
Speaker 5: was embarrassed about. And that's when we heard a little
Speaker 5: bit more about this particular clinic that she mentioned in
Speaker 5: her evidence.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the way that the name of this clinic
Speaker 2: has come out is through Aaron Patterson's own evidence with
Speaker 2: the prosecution. Let's hear a little bit more about those
Speaker 2: questions as Nannette Rodgers really pressed her about this particular appointment.
Speaker 4: This is voiced by actors.
Speaker 1: You had an appointment scheduled for eleven am on the
Speaker 1: thirteenth of September twenty twenty three at that clinic in
Speaker 1: South Yarra agree or disagree.
Speaker 4: I thought it was a different suburb.
Speaker 1: Did you have an appointment scheduled for eleven am on
Speaker 1: thirteenth of September twenty twenty three. Leaving aside the location
Speaker 1: of the clinic.
Speaker 4: That sounds about right.
Speaker 1: You canceled that appointment on eleventh September twenty twenty three.
Speaker 4: Agree or disagree that'd be about right.
Speaker 1: Yes, that appointment was with Miss Isabella eng a registered nurse.
Speaker 1: Agree or disagree, I don't know. The Enrich Clinic does
Speaker 1: not offer gastric bypass surgery or gastric sleeve surgery. Agree
Speaker 1: or disagree.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 1: The Enrich Clinic does not conduct assessments relating to gastric
Speaker 1: bypass surgery or gastric sleeve surgery. Agree or disagree.
Speaker 4: I don't know. But I'm a bit puzzled in what way.
Speaker 7: Well that was I had an appointment with them, and
Speaker 7: that's what my memory is that the appointment was for.
Speaker 4: So that's why I'm puzzled.
Speaker 1: Your appointment at the Enriched Clinic, the appointment that you
Speaker 1: have told this jury about on Friday, had nothing to
Speaker 1: do with gastric bypass surgery.
Speaker 7: Agree or disagree, Well, it would have been related to
Speaker 7: weight loss surgery. Perhaps it was a different procedure I
Speaker 7: was doing through them, and I was looking into lipersuction
Speaker 7: as well.
Speaker 1: When you gave sworn evidence to this jury last Friday
Speaker 1: that you had a pre surgery appointment for gastric bypass
Speaker 1: surgery booked in for early September with the Enriched Clinic
Speaker 1: in Melbourne, that was a lie. Agree or disagree, No,
Speaker 1: it wasn't a lie.
Speaker 4: That's what my memory was.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: As well as this gastric bypass surgery, the accused woman's
Speaker 2: also been asked quite a bit around the purpose for
Speaker 2: this particular lunch. Yes, and she's been questioned around why
Speaker 2: is it that she invited these family members. We've heard
Speaker 2: her say through her evidence that she just really wanted
Speaker 2: to have the family over to her house, that she
Speaker 2: wanted Heather Wilkinson to see her garden because of a
Speaker 2: comment Gail Patt and her mother in law had said previously,
Speaker 2: and that she just wanted to connect again with the family.
Speaker 2: And we have seen her become quite emotional during parts
Speaker 2: of her evidence when she was giving the reasons, particularly
Speaker 2: for the Wilkinsons being invited to her home. She said
Speaker 2: they'd never both been there before, certainly not for lunch.
Speaker 3: But she really wanted to show her gratitude.
Speaker 5: Was the type of phrasing she was using in her
Speaker 5: answer that they had always been there for her.
Speaker 3: She remembered that Heather Wilkinson had.
Speaker 5: Been a real support to her, particularly when her daughter
Speaker 5: was quite young, and she said that, yeah, she felt
Speaker 5: like it was a good time to show some support
Speaker 5: to them, and she also felt like the family was
Speaker 5: sort of shifting away from her a little bit, and
Speaker 5: she saw this as a really good opportunity, in her words,
Speaker 5: to bring everybody back together. This was something that she said,
Speaker 5: she really enjoyed that last lunch and this was another
Speaker 5: lunch that she wanted to have again. But she was
Speaker 5: asked many many questions during her evidence as well about
Speaker 5: why the kids weren't present, if that was a deliberate
Speaker 5: decision or not. It was put to her that some
Speaker 5: of the other witnesses had said that the kids deliberately
Speaker 5: weren't there, but in her evidence she said, no, no, no,
Speaker 5: it was her children that wanted to go to the movies,
Speaker 5: and it didn't matter if they were going to be
Speaker 5: there or not.
Speaker 3: In her mind, if they wanted to go to the film,
Speaker 3: that was perfectly fine.
Speaker 2: When she was asked, is the reason that they weren't
Speaker 2: there that you wanted to discuss this medical issue.
Speaker 6: She said no in regards to that, and she was
Speaker 6: taken through.
Speaker 2: As well as this relationship that she said she had
Speaker 2: with the different family members and wanting to, in her words,
Speaker 2: thank them by having them over for this lunch, about
Speaker 2: her relationship, particularly with Don and Gail Patterson, and she's
Speaker 2: said in her evidence that she didn't need to give
Speaker 2: them a reason to come to the lunch. She was
Speaker 2: questioned on whether she'd invited the Wilkinsons as a way
Speaker 2: to encourage either Don and Gail or Simon to come
Speaker 2: to her home, and she said no, that wasn't the case.
Speaker 2: In terms of Don and Gail, she said she didn't
Speaker 2: need a reason, that they loved her and.
Speaker 6: That they would have come just from getting an invitation.
Speaker 2: But she's been taken through a lot of these Facebook messages,
Speaker 2: messages with online friends that the listeners and the jury
Speaker 2: have heard a lot about now, these messages in early
Speaker 2: December twenty twenty two, where she's speaking particularly around financial issues,
Speaker 2: and she was questioned a lot about whether that was
Speaker 2: to do with Don and Gail's role regarding the children's
Speaker 2: school fees.
Speaker 5: And this came out because her evidence, as you just mentioned,
Speaker 5: Penny was that she was loved by her in laws
Speaker 5: and that she had a great relationship with them.
Speaker 3: She found that they were really, really supportive.
Speaker 5: And she wanted to spend time with them, hence why
Speaker 5: she invited them in and Heather over for lunch. But
Speaker 5: then we heard as well a lot about these Facebook
Speaker 5: messages where there was expletive written messages read out to
Speaker 5: the jury, and Aaron Patterson was asked whether or not
Speaker 5: they were her true feelings about her family. She maintained
Speaker 5: know that she was just frustrated at that time. But
Speaker 5: again and again we heard from Nannette Rogers whether or
Speaker 5: not that was correct or did you have two faces?
Speaker 6: Yeah, we'll hear a little bit more of this evidence now.
Speaker 2: Now, this follows Aaron Patterson being asked a number of
Speaker 2: times about what she said to other witnesses, including in
Speaker 2: her police interview, about loving Don and Gail Patterson.
Speaker 1: I suggest that you didn't love them, correct or incorrect.
Speaker 4: That's not true.
Speaker 1: I suggest that you were angry that they took Simon's
Speaker 1: side in your argument with him in twenty twenty two
Speaker 1: about the child allowance. That's not true, and that feeling
Speaker 1: towards them continued correct or incorrect incorrect. In fact, you
Speaker 1: had two faces, a public face of appearing to have
Speaker 1: a good relationship with Don and Gail as shown to
Speaker 1: people like Simon, Anna, Tanya, Matt, Ruth Dubois, Professor Stewart
Speaker 1: and police in your record of interview. Agree or disagree?
Speaker 4: Are you asking me to agree if I had two faces?
Speaker 1: I'm asking you, do you agree that you had a
Speaker 1: public face of appearing to have a good relationship with
Speaker 1: Don and Gail.
Speaker 4: I had a good relationship with Don and Gail.
Speaker 1: I suggest that your private face was the one you
Speaker 1: showed in your Facebook messenger use correct or incorrect incorrect,
Speaker 1: And how you truly felt about Don and Gail was
Speaker 1: at as you expressed it in your Facebook messages correct
Speaker 1: or incorrect, incorrect, And that is how you really felt
Speaker 1: about Simon Patterson as expressed to your Facebook friends correct
Speaker 1: or incorrect, incorrect.
Speaker 2: Now, another part that the jury has been taken through
Speaker 2: a sort of at different times of the evidence is
Speaker 2: this alleged conversation that Aaron Patterson says Simon Patterson had
Speaker 2: with her at the hospital at Monash Hospital in the
Speaker 2: days after the lunch while she.
Speaker 6: Was being treated.
Speaker 2: Now, she says that her estranged husband asked her, is
Speaker 2: that how you poisoned my parents? Referring to a dehydrateor
Speaker 2: following a discussion about dried mushrooms. Now, it has been
Speaker 2: mentioned during her cross examination that she says, this is
Speaker 2: the first time the thought crossed her mind that there
Speaker 2: was a possibility there were foraged mushrooms in the meal
Speaker 2: that she had served her guests.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Nedette Roger said, this is why she was pressing
Speaker 5: the accused woman on the order of events that then
Speaker 5: followed this conversation with Simon Patterson in the hospital room,
Speaker 5: and this is in her evidence. Aaron Patterson said her
Speaker 5: estrange husband was only in the room with her for
Speaker 5: about five minutes. In fact, she said that she was
Speaker 5: largely there with the two kids in the room, and
Speaker 5: when he was there, he was on his phone or
Speaker 5: out in the hallway on his phone. And this was
Speaker 5: this conversation occurred during a five minute window when they
Speaker 5: were left alone. And as I said, that's why the
Speaker 5: questioning was about the timeframe. What happened next? And Aaron
Speaker 5: Patterson said, yes, after I left hospital, this is what
Speaker 5: I did. This is I got rid of the dehydrator
Speaker 5: and I was worried, and in her evidence she was
Speaker 5: worried that the kids could be taken away if there
Speaker 5: was any sort of connection there. But as you said, Penny,
Speaker 5: she maintained that that was the first time in that
Speaker 5: hospital that she really started to think maybe there was
Speaker 5: another type of mushrooms that made their way into her meal.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And she was asked on whether so she had this
Speaker 2: conversation and then in after she's got out of hospital
Speaker 2: that next day she's driven her children to school, she says,
Speaker 2: then she's got rid of the dehydrator. She was asked,
Speaker 2: at any point did she ever tell any medical professionals
Speaker 2: that there was a chance that there could have been
Speaker 2: any sort of foraged mushrooms in this and she said no, never,
Speaker 2: And her evidence is that she's never told anyone through
Speaker 2: this whole process that there was a chance that there
Speaker 2: were these foraged mushrooms that potentially in that meal. Now
Speaker 2: she's been asked quite a bit about I naturalist, and
Speaker 2: the jury and the listeners have heard this word a lot.
Speaker 6: This citizen science website, as it's been.
Speaker 2: Referred to, where people record different sightings of different flaora
Speaker 2: and some of those being mushrooms now, she was asked
Speaker 2: about whether she remembered visiting certain Eye Naturalists posts and
Speaker 2: different parts of the website, and she's said through her
Speaker 2: evidence that she doesn't remember ever going on I Naturalists.
Speaker 5: But she does a dispute that she may have penny.
Speaker 5: And this is at a time where the prosecution alleged
Speaker 5: that Aaron Patterson was also ordering dinner online from a
Speaker 5: nearby pub, and she said she also doesn't remember making
Speaker 5: that order, but it was made under her name, with
Speaker 5: her address and her phone number, and she said that.
Speaker 3: It could possibly have been her.
Speaker 5: She's not saying it wasn't her, but in both of
Speaker 5: those instances she just said she doesn't have a memory of.
Speaker 3: It at all.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the prosecution, as you'll hear through this bit
Speaker 2: of evidence, is talking about the I Naturalist post being
Speaker 2: viewed on a computer that was seized from Aaron Patterson's
Speaker 2: home and also that pub order being made a sort
Speaker 2: of the same time, and they're putting this to the
Speaker 2: witness in Aaron Patterson, the accused woman. So this is
Speaker 2: quite lengthy, but we want you to hear the way
Speaker 2: this went back and forth in court as part of
Speaker 2: the cross examination. This is the words of Nannette Rogers
Speaker 2: and Aaron Patterson. It's voiced by actors.
Speaker 1: You knew how to use the map function on I Naturalist.
Speaker 1: Correct Or is it your evidence that you don't remember?
Speaker 7: I don't remember ever using the site, so questions like
Speaker 7: that are difficult to answer.
Speaker 1: Or did you use the site to utilize the map function?
Speaker 4: I don't remember using the site.
Speaker 1: I suggest you knew how to click on the little
Speaker 1: icons on the map to bring up the relevant post.
Speaker 1: Correct or incorrect. I don't know you did that for
Speaker 1: this I Naturalist post about deathcap mushrooms in Morabin correct
Speaker 1: or incorrect?
Speaker 4: Well, somebody did, and that somebody could have been me.
Speaker 1: Now I want to take you to another part of
Speaker 1: the exhibit. I've asked you questions about this previously, but
Speaker 1: my specific question in terms of this is that against
Speaker 1: the visit count on the left hand side, there's the
Speaker 1: number two. Do you see that?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 2: I do?
Speaker 1: You had visited the URL once before on this device? Correct?
Speaker 4: Yes, correct, and I believe it was two seconds earlier.
Speaker 1: I suggest you're wrong about that. Correct or incorrect?
Speaker 4: Ah, I'm correct.
Speaker 1: Can you go please to page eleven record two, so
Speaker 1: on the same date that we've been talking about. Twenty
Speaker 1: eighth of May twenty three, at seven twenty three pm,
Speaker 1: you navigated to the web address of the current Borough
Speaker 1: Middle Hotel or Middle Pub. Correct.
Speaker 4: It looks like somebody did, yes.
Speaker 1: Three minutes after you had accessed the I Naturalist page
Speaker 1: at seven twenty pm correct or correct.
Speaker 4: Three minutes after somebody did.
Speaker 1: Are you suggesting that it might have been your son?
Speaker 4: I'm not suggesting anything.
Speaker 1: Are you suggesting it was your daughter?
Speaker 4: I'm not suggesting anything.
Speaker 1: Who lived in your house on the twenty eighth of
Speaker 1: May twenty twenty.
Speaker 4: Two, myself and my two children.
Speaker 1: In terms of the evidence, there's been evidence that there
Speaker 1: was a purchase confirmed by the curran Borough Middle Hotel,
Speaker 1: a receipt provided in your name for the purchase of
Speaker 1: meals and the bottle of soft drink utilizing the hotel's
Speaker 1: online ordering provider. Your phone number was ending in seven
Speaker 1: eighty three correct. Correct, and the name. The evidence has
Speaker 1: been that the name entered into the website was yours.
Speaker 4: Correct.
Speaker 1: You heard that evidence? Yes, I suggest that it was
Speaker 1: you who placed the order correct or incorrect?
Speaker 4: I don't know now.
Speaker 2: Aaron Patterson has also been taken to the circumstances again
Speaker 2: of this particular lunch by the prosecution, and she was
Speaker 2: asked a bit about the play that this meal was
Speaker 2: served on in her kitchen and her dining room on
Speaker 2: that day.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that was over multiple days of her evidence
Speaker 5: that the prosecution went back to the plates and how
Speaker 5: many did you own and what do they look like
Speaker 5: and what color were they and here's the evidence of
Speaker 5: Ian Wilkinson and is this something you agree or disagree with?
Speaker 5: And Aaron Patterson said, I disagree. Her memory of the
Speaker 5: plates that she owned, she told the jury was that
Speaker 5: she actually didn't.
Speaker 3: Have a full set of plates. She did think that
Speaker 3: she might have.
Speaker 5: Some smaller black sort of side plates, but largely, she
Speaker 5: said that was a little bit sort of ad hoc.
Speaker 5: She did have some of that were red on the
Speaker 5: top and darker on the bottom, but she didn't remember
Speaker 5: deliberately in any way, shape or form selecting certain plates.
Speaker 5: She didn't remember plating up plates for different people. In fact,
Speaker 5: her memory was when she went to grab her plate
Speaker 5: to sit down, it was the only plate left and
Speaker 5: that's the reason she took it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And through her evidence, she's been brought back to
Speaker 2: this moment as well through the tree script as well,
Speaker 2: that she says she was making the gravy, that she
Speaker 2: turned away. When she turned back, four of the plates
Speaker 2: were gone, and she'd sort of said, grab a plate, guys,
Speaker 2: But that then she took her plate over to that
Speaker 2: to that seating area, and that there were no assigned
Speaker 2: seats or assigned plates. Now it was put to the
Speaker 2: accused by the prosecution an allegation of did you serve
Speaker 2: your food on a particular colored plate? And was that
Speaker 2: a non poisoned meal? Was the words that Thenette Rogers used,
Speaker 2: and she denied that.
Speaker 6: She said that all of these meals were the.
Speaker 2: Same, and she was asked quite a bit about what
Speaker 2: had happened after this meal. Now she's given evidence that
Speaker 2: after the meal she ate quite a bit of orange cake,
Speaker 2: and Aaron Patterson's account is that she then made herself
Speaker 2: ill after that. Now she was asked about that incident,
Speaker 2: but also how much she had eaten of the particular
Speaker 2: beef Wellington, and she's gone back and forth with saying
Speaker 2: it was around half, it was around a quarter, around
Speaker 2: a third. She used the words I didn't have a
Speaker 2: measuring tape, so she doesn't know exactly she says how
Speaker 2: much beef Welling she ate. She also says she couldn't
Speaker 2: be sure whether or not that beef Wellington came up
Speaker 2: when she was sick after the cake, and when she
Speaker 2: was pressed on that and to whether she had said
Speaker 2: these things in her evidence as a way to basically
Speaker 2: explain why she wasn't as sick as these other guests,
Speaker 2: Aaron Patterson again disputed that allegation from the prosecution, and
Speaker 2: she said, no, that's not the case, that she genuinely
Speaker 2: was sick, but she hadn't told anyone about that.
Speaker 5: She told the jury that yes, I told you all
Speaker 5: that I vomited, but I never told the jury in
Speaker 5: my mind what I vomited up. And she was asked
Speaker 5: a lot about the time of day potentially this happened,
Speaker 5: and she said, you couldn't put a pinpoint a time,
Speaker 5: but it was sort of.
Speaker 3: Late afternoon before evening.
Speaker 5: And it got a little bit tense in the room
Speaker 5: with a bit of questioning back and forth between Aaron
Speaker 5: Patterson and Annette Rodgers at this point when Aaron was like, well,
Speaker 5: I can't tell you what I vomited up. I don't
Speaker 5: know if it was beef Wellington it's vomit. I can't
Speaker 5: tell you what's in it. And she said, look, it
Speaker 5: could have been beans or corn. Maybe then i'd be
Speaker 5: able to tell you what was in it. And Nett
Speaker 5: Rogers turned around quite quickly and said, well, I never
Speaker 5: said that there was corn in the meal. And at
Speaker 5: that point there was I see a lot of heads
Speaker 5: turning and looking around in the courtroom as at exchange
Speaker 5: got a little bit uncomfortable.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we'll talk a little bit more in a
Speaker 2: moment about Aaron Patterson and the symptoms and the illness
Speaker 2: that she said she then suffered as a result of
Speaker 2: this meal. But first we'll take you through again some
Speaker 2: of the medical evidence. But this is in relation to
Speaker 2: what the prosecution has been putting to Aaron Patterson about
Speaker 2: what she did after the meal and why she did
Speaker 2: what she did at that time. Now, Aaron Patterson presented
Speaker 2: two days after the fatal lunch tu Lee and Gatha Hospital.
Speaker 2: That morning, after dropping her children at a bus to
Speaker 2: go to school, she says that she arrived at the
Speaker 2: hospital and it's been agreed through the evidence around eight
Speaker 2: oh five in the morning that she's then left the
Speaker 2: hospital and then she's returned again around an hour and
Speaker 2: forty minutes, just over an hour and a half later
Speaker 2: and represented at Lee and Gatha Hospital. Now it was
Speaker 2: put to Aaron Patterson was the reason that she had
Speaker 2: left this particular hospital because she wanted to get away
Speaker 2: from there and try and cover her tracks.
Speaker 5: Yeah, we had there was an hour and thirty eight minutes,
Speaker 5: was my recollection, Penny of how long the other witnesses
Speaker 5: believe that Aaron Patterson was gone from the hospital. For
Speaker 5: her evidence is that she arrived not really prepared to
Speaker 5: be admitted to hospital. She thought she might have some
Speaker 5: IV fluids and then you know, be sent home with
Speaker 5: some gashtro But her account was when she found out
Speaker 5: that she was potentially going to be sent to Melbourne,
Speaker 5: she needed to do some things first, so she said
Speaker 5: she went home, she looked after the animals, got some
Speaker 5: stuff organized for her daughter, and then was asked if
Speaker 5: perhaps she had a bit of a lay down during
Speaker 5: that time, and she maintained that no, she wasn't trying
Speaker 5: to cover her tracks in this period. She denied that
Speaker 5: she was leaving the hospital to make plans and was
Speaker 5: you know, fearful to learn that maybe medical stuff were
Speaker 5: cottoning on to the fact that there was death cap
Speaker 5: mushrooms in the meal earlier than expected. These were things
Speaker 5: she really denied, again and again and again she said, no, no, no,
Speaker 5: this is not the case at all, as the questions
Speaker 5: came thick and fast, and.
Speaker 2: Will take you through this in the evidence that you're hearing,
Speaker 2: voiced by actors, in the context, and also in the
Speaker 2: timing that it's been heard by the court.
Speaker 6: So this first little.
Speaker 2: Exchange that you're hearing is in regards to how Aaron
Speaker 2: Patterson was feeling at the time that she first presented
Speaker 2: at the Lee and Gatha Hospital.
Speaker 1: I want to suggest to you that you were stressed
Speaker 1: when you were at the hospital on this first presentation
Speaker 1: correct or incorrect.
Speaker 4: I probably was very stressed, yes.
Speaker 1: And I suggest that the reason you were stressed was
Speaker 1: because doctors suspected death cap mushroom poisoning for the lunch
Speaker 1: guests correct or incorrect.
Speaker 4: That definitely was a cause of anxiety. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I suggest that you were shocked that the doctors were
Speaker 1: on to death cap mushrooms so quickly.
Speaker 4: I wouldn't put it like that.
Speaker 1: Well, how would you put it.
Speaker 4: At the idea that we might have eaten those things?
Speaker 1: I'm suggesting that you were shocked that the doctors were
Speaker 1: on to death cat mushrooms so quickly correct or incorrect, incorrect,
Speaker 1: and you were worried that you were going to get
Speaker 1: caught correct or incorrect, incorrect, and further that you weren't
Speaker 1: prepared to answer questions about why death cat mushrooms were
Speaker 1: in the meal correct or incorrect.
Speaker 7: I don't think anyone ever tried to ask me that question,
Speaker 7: so I'm not sure what you're referring to.
Speaker 6: Now.
Speaker 2: She's told the court, as you mentioned, that she needed
Speaker 2: to get some things for her children, including.
Speaker 6: A ballet bag. She says that she had to pack
Speaker 6: for her daughter.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: She noted in her evidence she was pushed on whether
Speaker 2: her daughter had ballet that Daynette Rodgers said it was
Speaker 2: a Monday and that she didn't have ballet usually on
Speaker 2: a Monday, but Aaron Patterson insisted that this ballet bag
Speaker 2: was something that she packed.
Speaker 5: Yeah, she recalled that there was a concert rehearsal of sorts.
Speaker 5: She couldn't remember exactly where it was, but she was
Speaker 5: very very specific of her on her memory that this
Speaker 5: is one of the things that I needed to do.
Speaker 5: I needed to a home and pack this bag and
Speaker 5: get it ready for her daughter's ballet. And it was
Speaker 5: later mentioned that Simon Patterson, her strange husband, had to
Speaker 5: go and cancel that appointment. But this was part of
Speaker 5: the questioning around whether or not she panicked and needed
Speaker 5: to go and make plans because you know, she was
Speaker 5: being found out for these alleged crimes. But as I
Speaker 5: said earlier, she denied every single suggestion that that was
Speaker 5: the case.
Speaker 2: And we'll hear a little bit more of the evidence now.
Speaker 2: This is again regarding Simon Patterson and the evidence that
Speaker 2: he's given before this element that you're about to hear.
Speaker 2: Aaron Patterson was disputing his evidence where he told the
Speaker 2: court that she told him on a phone call she'd
Speaker 2: gone home and laid down for around forty five minutes.
Speaker 2: She said she didn't think it would be that long
Speaker 2: that she laid down for, but she had already by
Speaker 2: the time you hear what you're about to hear, been
Speaker 2: going back quite a few times with the prosecutor about
Speaker 2: how long that laid down was.
Speaker 1: Surely that's the last thing you would do in these circumstances.
Speaker 4: It might be the last thing you'd do, but it
Speaker 4: was something I.
Speaker 1: Did after you'd been told by medical staff that you
Speaker 1: had potentially ingested a life threatening poison, isn't it. The
Speaker 1: last thing that you would do is to lie down
Speaker 1: in those circumstances.
Speaker 4: They didn't tell me it was life threatening.
Speaker 1: They didn't tell you your life was at risk.
Speaker 4: No at all, not in that first conversation.
Speaker 1: No, No one told you. No medical witness told you,
Speaker 1: No medical member of staff told you that you were
Speaker 1: at risk, that your life was at risk in that
Speaker 1: first presentation at Leanngatha Hospital.
Speaker 7: No excuse me, Nobody between eight oh five and eight
Speaker 7: ten told me my life was at risk.
Speaker 1: No, but they told you that they suspected death cap
Speaker 1: mushroom poisoning.
Speaker 4: Correct, they did.
Speaker 1: You left Leanngatha Hospital under your own steam, walked out.
Speaker 1: I did walk out, And from the CCTV footage of
Speaker 1: you leaving the hospital, there's no indication that you're in pain.
Speaker 1: Would you agree with that? No outward sign?
Speaker 4: I have no idea.
Speaker 2: We'll be back with more of Aaron Patterson evidence after this. Now,
Speaker 2: the next thing Aaron Patterson was taken through in detail
Speaker 2: was as well as what she was doing in this
Speaker 2: time frame between presenting and then representing a lean Gatha
Speaker 2: Hospital was what her mobile phone might have been doing,
Speaker 2: and she was asked about what doctor Cerel, a phone
Speaker 2: tower expert, has said in his evidence regarding the movements
Speaker 2: of her mobile phone.
Speaker 5: Yeah, in the about hour after or thereabouts that she
Speaker 5: left the hospital for the first time, we were told
Speaker 5: that Sirel's evidence was the phone connected to Aaron Patterson
Speaker 5: was pinging on a cell tower or a base station
Speaker 5: in the lean Gatha area, which is where she lives
Speaker 5: and also where the hospital is that she.
Speaker 3: Had just left.
Speaker 5: But yeah, and then the phone allegedly started to move.
Speaker 5: Sirel's evidence was it later pinned off the Outreum base
Speaker 5: station which is southwest of Lean Gathera And Aaron Patterson
Speaker 5: was shown a map again today that circled Colin Burrough,
Speaker 5: Lean Gatha, Outram Lock these airs that came out as
Speaker 5: part of Cerel's evidence, and she was also pointed to
Speaker 5: a major road and this is something she really questioned
Speaker 5: the prosecution on and Neett Rodgers was saying, is it
Speaker 5: possible that you took the main road out of town
Speaker 5: to get to Outram And Aaron Patterson's evidence was, no,
Speaker 5: it's the Beast Highway. It doesn't go to outram and
Speaker 5: then the subject started to change a little bit, but
Speaker 5: that map was up on the screen for quite a while. Penny,
Speaker 5: as there's the line of questioning continued.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And Aaron Patterson continued to insist through her evidence
Speaker 2: that in that time that she left the hospital on
Speaker 2: this Monday morning, two days after the lunch, that she
Speaker 2: had simply gone to her home and lean Gatha made
Speaker 2: the preparations that she needed to make, and that she
Speaker 2: didn't leave, that she left the hospital to go home,
Speaker 2: and she left home to go back to the hospital,
Speaker 2: that she didn't go anywhere else.
Speaker 6: That was her evidence.
Speaker 2: But we'll hear a little bit more as the court
Speaker 2: heard this regarding what Aaron Patterson was doing in this
Speaker 2: just over an hour and a half, an hour and
Speaker 2: thirty eight minutes, you thought it would be treated, I suggest,
Speaker 2: as just a case of food poisoning correct or incorrect incorrect.
Speaker 2: Once you were told that the medical staff had detected
Speaker 2: deathcat mushrooms all suspected it, you had to think quickly
Speaker 2: correct or incorrect incorrect to try and explain why you
Speaker 2: were not sick correct incorrect, to try and cover your
Speaker 2: tracks correct or incorrect incorrect, and that's what you spent
Speaker 2: the one hour and forty minutes doing while you were
Speaker 2: away from the hospital. Agree or disagree?
Speaker 4: What are you saying I was doing.
Speaker 1: Thinking about waste to cover your tracks?
Speaker 7: Oh okay, you're saying I spent an hour and a
Speaker 7: half thinking.
Speaker 4: Is that what you're suggesting?
Speaker 7: Yes, I'm sure I did some thinking in that time,
Speaker 7: but it was not about covering my tracks.
Speaker 5: So we heard as well Aaron Patterson explain to the
Speaker 5: jury that when she returned to hospital that was because
Speaker 5: she wanted to get treatment. There was no denying that
Speaker 5: she wanted to get treatment at all them. It was
Speaker 5: put to her that other witnesses said that she appeared
Speaker 5: that she didn't really want to receive treatment. She was stressed,
Speaker 5: and this is at a point when one of the
Speaker 5: nurses was trying to canulate her and that so there
Speaker 5: were sort of questions allegedly from.
Speaker 3: The accuse saying, you know, do I need this? This
Speaker 3: is necessary?
Speaker 5: But Aaron Patterson's memory of those conversations were really different.
Speaker 5: She maintained that she was feeling unwell and she really
Speaker 5: wanted to get treatment and that's why she went to hospital.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's disputed a few accounts of the medical personnel's evidence,
Speaker 2: and it was put to her Kylie Ashton, a nurse
Speaker 2: at the Leanngatha Hospital, whether before she had left initially
Speaker 2: left the hospital after that first presentation, if she had
Speaker 2: had a discussion with her about her children, and she
Speaker 2: says no, She said she was she must be confused
Speaker 2: as in that nurse in her evidence that there was
Speaker 2: no conversations about her children until the second time she returned,
Speaker 2: and then she began having.
Speaker 6: Some of this treatment.
Speaker 2: Now she also, as people have just heard through the
Speaker 2: laying down and a couple of other elements of Simon
Speaker 2: Patterson's evidence, she's questioned and disputed that.
Speaker 1: He called her.
Speaker 2: She says he called her to ask whether she was
Speaker 2: at church on the Sunday following the lunch on the Saturday.
Speaker 2: It was put to her many times by the prosecution
Speaker 2: as to whether that was the reason that he called,
Speaker 2: and she said, well, the first thing he said to
Speaker 2: me was are you at church? So to her she
Speaker 2: said through her evidence that was the reason of the call.
Speaker 2: And she was asked a number of times about the
Speaker 2: evidence of her teenage son and what happened the day
Speaker 2: after this lunch when he was going to a flying
Speaker 2: lesson in tai Abb in Gippsland.
Speaker 5: Yeah, there was a bit of back and forth at
Speaker 5: that point over whether or not he needed to go
Speaker 5: to the flying lesson, which of the two of them
Speaker 5: said that they should go or shouldn't go, and which
Speaker 5: of them had an unwell bally. Aaron Patterson's evidence was
Speaker 5: that her son had had said that he had a
Speaker 5: saw bally around that time, and it was her evidence
Speaker 5: that she maybe hadn't mentioned it to them, so that
Speaker 5: there was a little bit of back and forth then
Speaker 5: about that flying lesson and questions about how long it
Speaker 5: would have got would have taken penny for them to
Speaker 5: get there and back.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she sort of mentioned through her evidence that
Speaker 2: she agreed that this flying instructor who's had his evidence
Speaker 2: read into the record, that she was quite annoyed and
Speaker 2: a bit grumpy with him, which is what he said
Speaker 2: in his evidence, because she had sort of taken this
Speaker 2: drive that's around an hour and a half to get
Speaker 2: to this particular airport, and that when she was very
Speaker 2: close to there, she got this call saying we're not
Speaker 2: going to be able to do the lesson because of
Speaker 2: the weather and she gave evidence that this had happened
Speaker 2: a number of times, or that at least she had
Speaker 2: said a number of times to the flying school, it's
Speaker 2: quite a long drive for me. I know you can't
Speaker 2: predict the weather, but if you think about an hour out,
Speaker 2: there's going to be a problem, could you please let
Speaker 2: me know.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And that didn't happen on this occasion, was her evidence.
Speaker 5: She recalled that they were about ten minutes away when
Speaker 5: she got the call to say, and this is after
Speaker 5: they'd already changed the time that they would need to
Speaker 5: cancel because of the weather. So she said, yes, you
Speaker 5: was quite frustrated at that time, and she explained that
Speaker 5: they didn't actually stop, they just turned around and headed
Speaker 5: on back home.
Speaker 2: As part of her son's evidence that's also been mentioned
Speaker 2: to her in some of her cross examination, she says
Speaker 2: that the morning that Sunday morning, when he said she
Speaker 2: seems to be having a coffee at the table, that
Speaker 2: she was actually having a herbal tea. And she also
Speaker 2: has given evidence around the sort of the stops for
Speaker 2: them stopping on the way back from this particular flying lesson.
Speaker 2: The son's given evidence that they stopped for a coffee
Speaker 2: and to get a few other things from a donut van,
Speaker 2: and she says that she agrees with his evidence that
Speaker 2: she didn't stop to go to the toilet, but that
Speaker 2: she can't really remember exactly what happened at that other
Speaker 2: stop on the way back. Now, in terms of what
Speaker 2: she's been taken to from the parts of other people's
Speaker 2: evidence quite a few times, she's also had the evidence
Speaker 2: of Katrina Cripps, a child protection worker, mentioned to her,
Speaker 2: and that includes things about when she says she became ill. Now,
Speaker 2: this has been touched on a number of times as
Speaker 2: to whether Aaron Patterson was ill on the Saturday night
Speaker 2: or not and when that exactly happened. She was questioned
Speaker 2: quite a bit about that in regards to taking her
Speaker 2: son's friend home.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and the essence of that questioning was around, were
Speaker 5: you feigning your symptoms essentially to make it look worse
Speaker 5: than it really was. Did you appear sick? What time
Speaker 5: did you begin having diarrhea? How frequent was it? When
Speaker 5: did its art? This witness remembered it was this time.
Speaker 5: Another witness member it was another time. But Aaron Patterson
Speaker 5: was really firm in her response as to when those
Speaker 5: symptoms started. She maintained that it was later in that Saturday,
Speaker 5: but when she had to drop her son's friend home,
Speaker 5: she felt that she was okay to drive, and that
Speaker 5: was again raised about the drive to the the air
Speaker 5: school as well, and at what point did she sort
Speaker 5: of get worse or better and things like that. But yeah,
Speaker 5: we heard from a number of other witnesses during this
Speaker 5: trial what their memories were, and Aaron Patterson challenged a
Speaker 5: few of those today.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she has again really disputed that she ever
Speaker 2: was pretending to be ill.
Speaker 6: She says she absolutely she was sick.
Speaker 2: And when it's been put to her that she was
Speaker 2: showing symptoms or telling people about symptoms, particularly a number
Speaker 2: of different people speaking about them, that she was speaking
Speaker 2: about them because she didn't want it to look suspicious
Speaker 2: that she maybe wasn't as ill as other guests, and
Speaker 2: she says that's absolutely not the case.
Speaker 5: She was shaking her head back and forth side to
Speaker 5: side when she was saying no, incorrect, that's not true
Speaker 5: to those responses. She had a whole sort of body
Speaker 5: language reaction to those, as she maintained, No, no, no,
Speaker 5: I was not feigning any.
Speaker 3: Symptoms at all.
Speaker 5: This is how I was feeling and this is why
Speaker 5: I did what I did, as in go to the
Speaker 5: hospital and get treatment and end up in Melbourne under observation.
Speaker 6: Let's hear a little bit more of the evidence.
Speaker 2: This is where Aaron Patterson is speaking with the Crown
Speaker 2: Prosecutor Nannette Rodgers, specifically about Katrina Cripps, the child protection
Speaker 2: worker's evidence and what she remembers compared to what Katrina
Speaker 2: Cripps told the court regarding when she first began to
Speaker 2: feel sick. She says that was on the Saturday night,
Speaker 2: but after she had taken the son's friend home.
Speaker 1: What is your evidence about that?
Speaker 7: My evidence is that I may have said that, but
Speaker 7: if I did, I was getting confused with the next day.
Speaker 1: So you might have told it to Ms Crips. I
Speaker 1: may have about the sat Today night. I may have,
Speaker 1: or you might have been referring to how you were
Speaker 1: feeling on the Sunday. Is that your evidence.
Speaker 7: I don't know if I said it or not, but
Speaker 7: I may have, and I may have been confused with
Speaker 7: how I felt on Sunday. I've had a lot of
Speaker 7: people ask me the same questions over and over, and
Speaker 7: I'd felt unwell and i felt.
Speaker 4: Anxious, and I was feeling confused and stressed.
Speaker 7: I was doing my best to answer everyone's questions, but
Speaker 7: I may have got things wrong a little bit along
Speaker 7: the way.
Speaker 2: Now, Aaron Patterson, when she was asked about wanting it
Speaker 2: to appear that she was sick, which she disputes, she
Speaker 2: said she was actually sick.
Speaker 6: And whether she was seriously unwell.
Speaker 2: The words that she used when being questioned by the
Speaker 2: prosecutor was that she thinks seriously unwell is subjective, and
Speaker 2: that she said what she said.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And she was really at pains to explain that
Speaker 5: there was a lot of questions coming a lot of
Speaker 5: people that she'd spoken to on lots of dates and
Speaker 5: times and alike, and she was really firm in a
Speaker 5: lot of her answers. But it was at this point
Speaker 5: that she was like, oh, yes, I'm doing my best
Speaker 5: to answer everybody's questions. I'm doing my best to sort
Speaker 5: of understand what you're wanting from me as the Crown prosecutor.
Speaker 5: But then the questioning really went a little bit further
Speaker 5: to Okay, well, if you were unwell, why were you unwell?
Speaker 5: Were you pretending to be more unwell? And that question
Speaker 5: you just said Penny, what does seriously unwell really mean?
Speaker 2: And it was also put to the accused woman that,
Speaker 2: in the words of Nannette Rodgers, that she didn't consume
Speaker 2: even a minute amount of death cat mushrooms at the lunch.
Speaker 6: Now, Aaron Patterson said, I have no idea if.
Speaker 2: I did or not, but she disputed that at any
Speaker 2: point she'd been trying to make it appear that she
Speaker 2: was sick. It was also mentioned to her, which she
Speaker 2: doesn't dispute, that her liver function tests were normal, Yes,
Speaker 2: And she was spoken to about a number of other
Speaker 2: results that she had through this medical journey of a
Speaker 2: few days in the hospital system. Yeah.
Speaker 5: One of the last topics that we heard for this
Speaker 5: part of Aaron Patterson's evidence was the leftovers and how
Speaker 5: they got where and why they were there. And we
Speaker 5: know from another witness and Aaron Patterson was taken through
Speaker 5: this and it was put to her as part of
Speaker 5: her examination as well that one of the other police
Speaker 5: officers who had attended a property while speaking to her
Speaker 5: on the phone when she was in hospital, had found
Speaker 5: leftovers of the lunch in and outdoor bin. And Aaron
Speaker 5: Patterson was asked what was in those leftovers and how
Speaker 5: much was there and what was it from? And this
Speaker 5: is a point in time where she was also asked
Speaker 5: about the beef Wellingtons that she made. She told the
Speaker 5: jury that she made six, and it was at this
Speaker 5: point where His Honor actually interrupted the evidence and said, well,
Speaker 5: what happened to the six Why did you make a
Speaker 5: sixth beef Wellington?
Speaker 3: Was that for Simon Patterson?
Speaker 5: And she said no, it was just made as a spare,
Speaker 5: And then the questioning turned back to okay, well what
Speaker 5: was in the bin?
Speaker 3: Who'se beef Wellington was it? And how much penny?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And in that clarification with Justice Biel, he was
Speaker 2: really asking when it was put to her by the prosecutor,
Speaker 2: was that sixth Wellington specifically for Simon Patterson? Should he
Speaker 2: have suddenly arrived at the lunch that he had said
Speaker 2: previously he wasn't going to be coming to. And she
Speaker 2: said no, no, it was just an extra one that
Speaker 2: she'd made.
Speaker 6: But she noted through.
Speaker 2: Her evidence as well, this has come up a number
Speaker 2: of times whether she had made a specifically a beef
Speaker 2: Wellington for Simon Patterson, and she's been asked by the
Speaker 2: prosecutor whether that intentionally contained deathcap mushrooms and that she
Speaker 2: would have given that to him if he arrived. And
Speaker 2: she's said through her evidence, no, she wouldn't have intentionally
Speaker 2: given him deathcap mushrooms, but that if he'd come to
Speaker 2: the lunch, she would have given him a beef Wellington.
Speaker 2: As to what was left in the bin, she described
Speaker 2: it as being part of a beef Wellington, and that
Speaker 2: she says the pastries and the mushrooms that she'd taken
Speaker 2: off the kid's food and she was asked a bit
Speaker 2: about well, where the meat from that had gone, and
Speaker 2: she said, that went into my kid's stomachs.
Speaker 6: That's right now.
Speaker 2: Aaron Patterson is still being cross examined. Will bring you
Speaker 2: more evidence from the trial as the jury he here's
Speaker 2: it soon.
Speaker 6: Thank you for listening to this episode of Say Grace.
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Speaker 5: For more reporting on the case, check out the Age
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Speaker 2: that this podcast was reported on and wherever you're listening
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Speaker 6: Say Grace is created and hosted by me Penelope Leash,
Speaker 6: and me Erin Percon. This podcast is produced by Genevieve Rule.