S1: Hey there. I'm Osman Farooqui and this is The Drop,
S1: a culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
S1: And we dive into the latest in the world of
S1: pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Thomas Mitchell and
S1: Mel Kambouris. What's up, guys? Having a good week? How
S1: are we feeling?
S2: Yeah, not too bad.
S3: You've had a very big week. You've been at the
S3: Logies behind the scenes. I'm very excited to hear all
S3: the kind of industry Goss from you.
S2: Yeah, it was one of the shortest Logies on record
S2: at 17 hours.
S1: So I feel like we up until the Logies we
S1: were having a pretty similar few days. We were all
S1: watching the next five episodes of The Bear and texting
S1: each other and Thomas, you and I were like, As
S1: you might predict, if you listen to last week's episode
S1: much more excitedly texting each other about it in a
S1: group chat, Mel was, I don't know if you were
S1: busy or just like you'd muted us. There wasn't a
S1: lot of action from you.
S3: Melanie I actually don't think we had similar weeks because
S3: my week was fending off everyone in the world coming
S3: up to me and saying, You're the worst person. You
S3: hate the bear, you have no heart. You're a cold,
S3: hard steak, as Thomas called me last week. So, no,
S3: I think we had very different weeks.
S1: Yeah. And then things things were great watching that show.
S1: And then things got a little bit less great when
S1: Thomas and I had to spend 11 hours covering television.
S1: Self Declared Night of Night's the Logie Awards. And that's
S1: what we're going to start with. We're going to come
S1: back to the bear later on in this episode, wrap
S1: up the second season. But in a normal year, I'm
S1: not sure how much time the three of us would
S1: devote on this podcast to talking about the Logies. But
S1: I think there were a few bits and pieces from
S1: the night that I think allow us to use the
S1: awards as an opportunity to talk about the state of
S1: Australian TV, the good and the bad of the entertainment industry.
S1: But I think most significantly the Gold Logie going to
S1: Sonia Kruger has something that has sparked a lot of
S1: conversation in the industry in Australia. I wrote a piece
S1: about my feelings about that, given some of Sonia Kruger's
S1: past comments on Muslims and her on the record statement
S1: that she was in 2016 in favour of a ban
S1: on Muslim migration.
S4: Indiscriminate the way. That's exactly right. But just just to clarify, Sonia,
S4: are you saying that you would like our borders closed
S4: to Muslims at this point?
S5: Yes, I would. I would because I think at this is.
S4: The Donald Trump. I think.
S1: So. I think there is a bit to unpack there
S1: in terms of what it means for someone like that
S1: to have won the Gold Logie. But before we kind
S1: of get to that specific question, I think it's worth
S1: discussing why exactly we and I say we as in
S1: the three of us, but also we as our listeners,
S1: as Australians more generally should or do care about the
S1: Logie Awards. And whenever the has come up and we
S1: cover it, you always get people either on like social
S1: media or in the comments section of our story saying
S1: no one cares about the Logies. This is like a
S1: really dumb night. Australian TV celebs are completely up their
S1: own arses. Who cares? Let me tell you, people do care.
S1: And in fact, more people than I think even you
S1: and I, Thomas, who do follow this stuff quite closely
S1: and have always been a bit interested, even more than
S1: we thought. Cared, cared. There was nearly a million people
S1: who tuned in to the live free to air broadcast
S1: of this on Channel seven on Sunday night. And you
S1: know we can't really disclose the exact numbers of the
S1: people who are at our coverage because, you know, it's
S1: a closely guarded secret. And media, hundreds of thousands of people,
S1: most of whom I don't think would have watched the
S1: Logie ceremony, read our coverage, both the live blog that
S1: Thomas was reporting from and our wraps and reviews and
S1: analysis following. So I think, you know, it's an award show.
S1: We do care about award shows, whether it's the Oscars
S1: or the Emmys or the Grammys or the Logies. No
S1: one is pretending that it is perfect. And it is
S1: like a amazing summation of Australian culture. But people do
S1: watch and they're interested. And I think at the very
S1: least it does serve as a barometer on what people
S1: in the industry and what Australians who watch television think
S1: about TV. That's kind of my $0.02. On why it's
S1: worth talking about. Thomas You've been going to the Logies
S1: for like a decade, not to make you feel old,
S1: but you are a a big TV head. Talk to
S1: me about why you think the Logies matter.
S2: Yeah, I think like you said, it's always been one
S2: of those things that's like a really easy punchline because
S2: the Logies are very much imperfect and they're maybe tacky
S2: and they've always been hamstrung by very strange voting categories
S2: where some are just like publicly voted and some are
S2: industry voting. And it's like easy to paint it as
S2: a popularity contest, which it kind of is. And on
S2: top of that, it's always just been viewed as a
S2: bit lame. And it's the joke that everyone wants to make.
S2: That being said, I think it was really interesting and
S2: maybe a good reminder like we had two years of
S2: no Logies as a result of the pandemic in 2020 and. 21.
S2: And it was a case of be careful what you
S2: wish for, like when when it was away, everyone missed it.
S2: And you know, aside from the the actual night of
S2: the Logie Awards, which is probably where a lot of
S2: that like a lot of those jokes are aimed because
S2: it can seem low rent. The reality is it's rewarding
S2: an entire industry that works really hard, and especially in
S2: the most outstanding categories which are industry voted. You know,
S2: there's all these people that have spent a year working
S2: on their craft, and when we didn't have that for
S2: two years, that was a lot of people whose work
S2: was overlooked and didn't get a chance to be appreciated
S2: by an audience that often they wouldn't get access to.
S2: So I do think, you know, however short the lodges fall,
S2: they do matter. And we shouldn't be like listening to
S2: those comments, just like, Oh, the logs are outdated or
S2: the lodges are cancelled, the log is finished. We can
S2: appreciate that they're not perfect, but we should be wanting
S2: to keep them and improve them.
S1: Yeah, and believe me, we will definitely be talking about
S1: how they are not perfect. We're having this conversation because
S1: I think we have some significant issues with what happened
S1: this year, but I think that's a really good summary. Mel,
S1: you've been covering culture longer than I have in this country.
S1: What's your kind of top line thoughts on this?
S3: I agree with both of you that the lodges are
S3: not a perfect award ceremony by any stretch of the imagination.
S3: But I do wonder and worry that we might shoot
S3: ourselves in the foot when we make fun of things
S3: like the lodges and actors and Aria awards, because these
S3: are our awards for our and I see this in
S3: quotations national culture. And I think by making fun of
S3: those awards ceremonies, in some ways it's a kind of
S3: reflection of cultural cringe and that Australian art and creativity
S3: aren't worth celebrating. And obviously the flow on effect of
S3: that is less of a place in Australian society for
S3: the culture that we all love and less of a
S3: promotion of the culture we love. Because why would we
S3: invest in Australian content if we're all making fun of
S3: the award ceremonies promoting Australian content? So while I agree
S3: like it isn't, you know, made fun of the actors too,
S3: because there's always one Australian show that wins every single
S3: award and the Arias and, and they have.
S1: The worst name for an awards.
S3: It totally but when I think about it I do
S3: I am concerned about the kind of flow on effects
S3: of talking down our output as a country. And I think.
S2: You're adding to all that award shows. By nature, it's
S2: way more fun to make fun of an award show
S2: that is to be like, What a great awards night.
S2: Like the nature of the type of event they are
S2: really lends themselves to being picked apart. Yeah.
S1: And I think as kind of critics or as people
S1: who write about and interrogate culture in this country, it
S1: also makes sense to write about and interrogate the the
S1: kind of ceremonies and structures that reward what is good culture,
S1: because when things win lodges, that sends incentives to the
S1: industry to make more. When stuff doesn't win Logies, that
S1: suggests that it's not worthy enough. So whether you watch
S1: it or don't watch it, whether you think it matters
S1: or think it doesn't matter, it does impact what you
S1: see on your screen and what kind of television gets made.
S1: So I think I think it's probably enough of us
S1: justifying why we are talking about this event. Thomas, you
S1: mentioned this briefly, but because I think it's important to
S1: the conversation around who wins. Do you mind running us
S1: through like who actually determines these things? How do the
S1: Logie Awards get decided?
S2: Yeah, so there are two different categories there's most popular
S2: and most outstanding. So most popular is public voted and
S2: that's done like via the internet using an online form
S2: or via SMS. That change, I think came out about
S2: in 2011, which seems remarkably late. But you know, yeah,
S2: so that's ten categories and that's like most popular new talent,
S2: most popular drama, most popular reality, and of course ultimately
S2: the Gold Logie for the most popular personality on TV.
S2: And then the second category is most outstanding, and that's
S2: the industry voted. And a lot of the actual categories
S2: are mirrored. So most popular reality show versus most outstanding
S2: reality show. But these ones are industry voted. They often
S2: are seen as perhaps the more prestigious because it's coming
S2: from your peers and they are judged by a secret
S2: 100 they refer to them as. And that's a industry
S2: body of, you know, directors, critics, producers, 100 people from
S2: within the industry that vote on those awards.
S1: And that is also a new thing. Like previously, I
S1: think there was like a a wider group of people
S1: that kind of subbed in for different sorts of things
S1: and was journalists and producers and whatever. This one seems
S1: to be a little bit more modelled on like how
S1: the Emmys and the Oscars kind of work with a
S1: dedicated academy almost. But you still have that popular category
S1: that supplements it and gets people voting. And this is
S1: why you see in the lead up to the Logies,
S1: like if you watch free to air television, there'll be
S1: appeals coming up on the screen saying please vote for
S1: like this show. Please vote for your favorite show to
S1: the way to I guess, drum up support and engage
S1: the punter in recent years before we get to Sunday night.
S1: Have there been any particular Logie moments that you think
S1: are worth reflecting on as an example of like why
S1: these awards have shifted the needle in terms of what
S1: we talk about and what we consider interesting in Australian TV?
S1: Like to be honest, the most standout thing for me
S1: is Tom Gleeson probably taking the piss. Out of the
S1: whole thing.
S6: Turns out I'm just really good at manipulating the media
S6: to get people to do things for me. Which, if
S6: you think about it, it's why we're all here. So
S6: maybe I do deserve this award.
S1: And gaming the award for Gold Logie, which is like
S1: the most prestigious award for the most popular presenter on
S1: Australian television. Thomas, do you mind sort of like reminding
S1: us what exactly happened there?
S2: Yeah. So Tom Gleeson essentially basically looked to prove like
S2: tongue firmly planted in cheek that the Logies, at least
S2: that part of the Logies, the Gold Logie, were a
S2: bit ridiculous in that you could just take advantage of,
S2: you could convince the public to do something and it
S2: wouldn't reflect the most popular person on TV. It would
S2: just reflect whoever could galvanise the most people to vote.
S2: So in 2018, he ran a very high profile campaign
S2: to get Grant Denyer to win the Gold Logie. Now, Grant,
S2: you know, he's a great game show host. Was he
S2: arguably sensibly the most popular personality on Australian TV? Probably not.
S2: But Tom Gleeson, who is very popular and host of
S2: a very popular ABC quiz show, ran that campaign. And
S2: lo and behold, Grant Daniel wins the Gold League in 2018.
S7: Tom Gleeson, where are you? Yeah, you're over there. Yeah.
S7: Thanks for that hard chat, mate. I appreciate it. Sometimes
S7: if you need to get some things done in this country,
S7: you need a angry redhead. And Pauline Hanson wasn't available,
S7: so I had you, mate. Thank you so much.
S2: The following year, Gleason doubles down and runs his own
S2: campaign for gold, leveraging his own already established popularity.
S7: How does it feel to be twice as tall as me,
S7: but only half successful? Depends how you define success. Winning
S7: a Gold Logie.
S6: You only won it as a joke. When I win it,
S6: it'll be for having a show that's actually popular and
S6: on air.
S7: You hijacked my campaign, and now everyone thinks I won
S7: a Gold Logie because you hijacked it. That's not a question.
S7: It just shits me.
S2: And again, he wins the Gold Logie. And you know,
S2: I remember I was working, I was freelancing actually for
S2: TV Week, which is the magazine that kind of is
S2: the name partner of the Logies. And I was in
S2: their media room when he won and it was very
S2: tense vibes because they didn't know how to handle him.
S1: And his speech was kind of taking the piss out.
S1: He's like, I'm, I'm treating this industry with the respect
S1: it deserves. Basically, he's like, It's a joke. I'm a joke.
S1: You're all a joke.
S6: I can tell you this. I'm not the most popular
S6: person on Australian television. I know I'm not. It's just
S6: basic stats. You know, if this went to the most
S6: popular personality on Australian TV, I'd go to someone from
S6: Married at First Sight or the a rugby league player
S6: in the State of Origin. I mean, that's what should happen.
S6: But it doesn't for some reason. You've got to campaign
S6: for it. But I can tell you this, I do
S6: host the highest rating game show in Australia. So somewhere
S6: in the joke, people forgot that this is mine.
S2: That was a very quite a memorable speech. And he
S2: has a good point. But they, you know, were like, oh,
S2: but this is our big thing. And he highlighted something
S2: that is very true. The Gold Logie has been like
S2: steeped in prestige and we love to see these images
S2: of Bert and Graham Kennedy and the golden era of
S2: Australian TV and but that's not the reality anymore. And
S2: having a most popular personality category that has both actors
S2: and presenters and it's so confusing and probably really needs
S2: to have a conversation about the place of it, which
S2: we definitely will following this year's win. But the place
S2: of it in a cultural landscape of 2023. And that's
S2: kind of what Gleeson highlighted.
S3: In saying that there's also been a few people who
S3: have used the kind of Gold Logie speech as quite
S3: a momentous occasion. I think when Waleed Ali won in 2016,
S3: he gave quite a rousing speech about racism in the industry.
S8: Me being here right now really matters to them and
S8: it matters to them for a particular reason. And that
S8: reason was brought home shuddering early not so long ago, actually,
S8: when someone who was in this room and I'm not
S8: going to use their the name that they use in
S8: the industry came up to me introduce themselves and said
S8: to me, I really hope you win. My name is Mustafa.
S8: But I can't use that name because I won't get
S8: a job. He's here tonight. And it matters to people
S8: like that that I'm here.
S3: And so you kind of see the two very different
S3: responses to the award.
S2: It's rare in Australian culture to have a big platform
S2: like that because we don't have many big awards nights
S2: and that that speech often does become this like moment,
S2: you know, Carrie bit more when she won famously launched
S2: her like beanies for brain cancer after her first husband
S2: passed away. We had Samuel Johnson, quite an emotional win
S2: for playing Molly. And then he was kind of like
S2: Molly stormed the stage and that created it. A strange
S2: moment because Molly wasn't in the best form.
S3: So Taylor Swift situation wasn't finished.
S2: So it is this kind of window, I guess, for
S2: a big moment. And it often delivers something to talk
S2: about anyway.
S3: And also sometimes there are the big moments which actually
S3: after the Logies, one of my favourite Logies adjacent moment
S3: is our friend of the family, Karl Stefanovic. Post Logies
S3: are front of the podcast network.
S1: Absolutely.
S3: Post Logies moment I think quite a few years ago.
S3: Obviously a bit a whisper where on the Today show.
S3: A lot of.
S9: Fun. Oh.
S4: It was a great night. It was a fantastic night.
S10: So Lisa has not slept and neither has Karl. I'm
S10: talking about myself in the third person.
S4: Yeah. When did that.
S10: Start? I'm not sure. Let us have a quick look
S10: at the weather now.
S2: And if you go back to 2013, there's a great
S2: post Logies moment, which is a picture of me wearing
S2: a pink tie and with Flo Ryder. So I mean
S2: that really kind of.
S3: That sums it.
S2: Up. That really sums up the logos, isn't it?
S3: Quick question. We have discussed before, Tom Cruise, your photo
S3: with Tom Cruise. Not not great. You weren't happy. Did
S3: you get any photos on the red carpet this time?
S2: No, to be honest, it wasn't really the photo vibe.
S2: It was it was very it was quite warm in
S2: Sydney on Sunday and the carpet was like quite tight
S2: and everyone was very hot and sweaty, so it wasn't. Yeah,
S2: no pictures.
S1: I've got to say that you did a great job
S1: on the red carpet. If you're interested in seeing Thomas
S1: interview some great celebs. He was there with our colleague
S1: Nicole from our social media team. You can check him
S1: out on our TikTok at the Sydney Morning Herald and
S1: the age that was really red in a really bad
S1: voice than than it is, actually. It was actually quite
S1: fun to watch you on the carpet. Okay. Let's talk
S1: about some of the good bits of Sunday before we
S1: start our dissection of where things started to go wrong.
S1: One of the things I was most looking forward to
S1: was Sam Pang as the host when he was announced.
S1: I've always really enjoyed Sam Pang. I think he's like
S1: quite fresh and different to most of the other kind
S1: of funny presenters on TV and even on shows like
S1: The Front Bar that he's on with Mike Molloy and
S1: whoever else he's, he just feels different, like he's in
S1: a kind of different league and he was really funny.
S11: I'd also like to acknowledge a win for diversity tonight.
S11: I'm the first host in the history of the Logies
S11: to be half and half, half Channel seven and half
S11: Channel ten. Let's be honest, it's just great to have
S11: an Asian on Channel seven. Who isn't trying to smuggle
S11: live birds through border security.
S1: I think he did the right balance of being respectful,
S1: but also taking the piss, being self-aware, making jokes about himself,
S1: about the network that was airing at Channel seven. Some
S1: of his jokes didn't quite work, and then he would
S1: come back and find a way to make them land.
S1: I enjoyed them.
S3: Yeah, I agree. If we had to give the drop,
S3: Loki Sam is definitely getting it. I loved him on
S3: Eurovision when he when he used to commentate that I
S3: thought he was perfect for the Logies. Give me more.
S2: Sam Pang Yeah, I would be. I really hope it
S2: comes back next year. I wonder what he'll do. He
S2: was the first solo host in like 11 years since
S2: Shane Born, and everyone I think was probably the most pre.
S2: His excitement was to do with Sam Pang, which I
S2: think speaks volumes again. But he was amazing. Like his
S2: jokes were kind of note perfect. They weren't like there
S2: were times I'm like, he could probably go harder, but
S2: no one was safe. I loved when he like, kind
S2: of took the piss out of Hamish explaining what a
S2: mortgage is to Hamish Blake.
S11: Thank you. Hi. I really appreciate it. Some of us
S11: have a mortgage. By the way, a mortgage is when
S11: the bank loans out. Don't worry.
S2: There are a couple of Ben Roberts-Smith jokes, which I
S2: appreciated because like he was on Channel seven, I thought
S2: that was brave and really sussed.
S3: Amy Shark Yeah, he died.
S2: He SAS Amy Shark and he, you know, he very
S2: much took the piss out of himself. So I think
S2: in terms of the Sam Pang experience, people didn't really
S2: have a bad word to say.
S1: The other thing that I did enjoy about these awards,
S1: like the Logies, have rightly been very criticised for being
S1: an extremely like non diverse affair and maybe that's an
S1: unfair thing to pin on the locals because they just
S1: reflecting what is happening in Australian TV culture more generally.
S1: But I feel like this year in particular it felt
S1: like the Logies for like brief glimpse for a little
S1: bit more reflective of the rest of the country, like
S1: having Tony Armstrong, who nominated again and then winning the Logie.
S1: Michael Smith This is like a bittersweet one, right? Like
S1: Michael Smith from Mystery Road being nominated for the Gold
S1: was really exciting, but him being the first ever indigenous
S1: person in the history of these awards nominated is like
S1: also pretty shameful. And Waleed still being the only non
S1: like white person ever to win the Logie is a
S1: bit disappointing, but it did feel exciting. And seeing the
S1: Heartbreak High cast Asha Madden they're performing as well. Like
S1: it felt like maybe we're finally getting a little bit
S1: closer to an industry that looks like and sounds like
S1: the rest of the country in terms of specific wins
S1: that I enjoyed. I thought Colin from accounts emerge as
S1: one of the key winners of the night and really
S1: deservedly so, like winning most outstanding comedy and actor and
S1: actress for Patrick Bramwell and Harriet Dyer, who are also
S1: a couple and also co-wrote and produced that show together.
S1: They seem like really good people. And Thomas, you spoke
S1: to them on the red carpet and you got a
S1: little bit of Goss on how they were able to
S1: attend the event.
S2: Yeah, well, they're both kind of they live and work
S2: in LA and they both have appeared in numerous American
S2: TV programs. And yeah, they had to get like a
S2: special dispensation from SAG to attend. They got permission. There's
S2: a lot of chat right now about kind of waivers
S2: and I guess increasingly more visible people getting what seems
S2: like getting around the strike rules. But that wasn't the
S2: case for them. But they did have to get permission,
S2: which I thought was interesting. And and then they both
S2: spoke to me about, you know, like Patrick is currently
S2: writing a series for an American streamer, but he's pens
S2: down on that. So yeah, I think they were very
S2: excited to be able to come once they knew they
S2: were in the clear and they stole the show. It's funny,
S2: every year there's often like something heartwarming that's like becomes
S2: the the nice storyline. And it was very much Patrick Bramwell.
S2: And Harriet died this year. They were hilarious on stage.
S2: They seem to be on camera every like five minutes.
S2: But yeah, all of their acceptance speeches were great. And
S2: that show, I think has been really embraced that binge show.
S2: So yeah, it was it was a worthy winner.
S3: It's such a fantastic show and well worth a watch.
S3: People who haven't seen it yet. Guys, what did you
S3: think about the difference between the popular vote and the
S3: outstanding vote? Because as we were just saying, Colin from
S3: Accounts really crushed the outstanding vote but didn't seem to
S3: get the popular vote.
S2: Well, yes, this is the thing, isn't it? Like, you know,
S2: have you been paying attention, has won that most popular
S2: comedy or entertainment program for years running and then it
S2: was also nominated for Most outstanding as it always is,
S2: but it never wins that like and there is this
S2: funny disconnect. I thought the weirdest one, I was so
S2: sure Heartbreak High was going to win most popular drama,
S2: and it obviously went to home in a way. And
S2: this is, I think, where people who don't really engage
S2: the lodges start to get disconnected because they're like home
S2: and away.
S1: Like what? Yeah, I think there's a real skew to
S1: free to air shows in particular in the popular category
S1: because that's where you mobilize voters, right? Like Channel seven,
S1: who was the broadcast partner this year has a big
S1: incentive to get all of its shows to win. So
S1: they push. You watch any Channel seven show, you watch
S1: the John Farnham, you know, the Voice documentary, and they're
S1: running a strap down the bottom saying, make sure to
S1: vote for your favorite Channel seven stars, even in the
S1: Channel seven News in the lead up to the Logies,
S1: they were telling you to go and vote for your
S1: favorite Channel seven star. And that's just not something that
S1: Netflix can mobilize. Like you're never going to going to
S1: go on Netflix and on the homepage. It'll be like,
S1: Go vote for your favorite show on the log. So
S1: I think that divergence between popular and outstanding is becoming
S1: increasingly like clear and quite sharp as we get all
S1: these pretty interesting and funny and poignant dramas and comedies
S1: that are on streaming platforms, but you still end up
S1: with like Home and Away, and then you end up
S1: with what I think is one of the most frustrating
S1: and disappointing outcomes is like Amy Shark winning Best New
S1: Talent against Two Heartbreak High Stars for a judging kind
S1: of role on Australian Idol, which is a show that
S1: very few people watch this year that's just not reflective
S1: of what is going on in terms of what people
S1: are watching. Did you guys feel similarly about that?
S3: I do. And I think as well as obviously there's
S3: a difference in the streaming platforms and their capacity to
S3: mobilize voters, and that is inherently tied to a generational difference.
S3: And I think the logic is skewing to a much
S3: older audience. The TV ratings would be interesting to see.
S3: The breakdown of the age categories is. Skewing towards a
S3: much older audience, which is why shows with much older
S3: audiences like Home and Away and have you been paying
S3: attention are winning. Whereas streaming platforms and shows skewing towards
S3: younger people who are not engaged in the Logies probably
S3: don't even know it's on don't even know to vote
S3: or why voting would matter.
S2: But it's so funny because if you looked at the like,
S2: you know, the viewing hours for Heartbreak High on Netflix
S2: around the world, like if Netflix did two days of
S2: running a banner on the Netflix like splash screen that
S2: was like vote for your favourite heartbreak High Star. They
S2: would fucking crush it. It would be a no contest
S2: because like the viewing hours of how many people watch
S2: Heartbreak High versus how many people still watch Home in
S2: a way is like a no contest.
S1: It's a really interesting idea. I wonder whether they will
S1: do something like this like we've seen in the States.
S1: The streamers get on board running campaigns and funding events
S1: for things like the Oscars and the Emmys. But I
S1: guess Australia is seen as a little bit too small fry,
S1: but I wonder whether it would really help them be
S1: seen as like a prestigious, significant platform if they could,
S1: you know, because when you go on Netflix and you
S1: see a show, it will sometimes say like, this has
S1: won this many Oscars. It's award winning, blah, blah, blah.
S1: But they can only do that with international shows. They
S1: can't do that with early innings in shows yet because
S1: they haven't won the big awards for them. So it
S1: may be something that they look into. That's an interesting
S1: one to watch.
S3: Yeah, And man, I love seeing the Heartbreak High kids
S3: on the red carpet. I thought they were so fresh.
S3: I know, because there were so many kind of familiar
S3: faces from the last kind of 50 years, which.
S2: Obviously good to see you again for his 800th Logies.
S2: Whereas whereas those guys are like firstly, they're all like
S2: really cool and like look amazing, like dressing best fits
S2: and everything and also like super excited to be there.
S2: That all come as a group like it was the same.
S2: Went to the actors last year and like the Heartbreak
S2: High cast stole the show and like they were just
S2: like the best vibe. Everyone was like getting around them.
S2: And it was the same thing this year at the Luigi's.
S1: I think the other thing about the Heartbreak High Gang
S1: is that they represent like the future of Australian television,
S1: which is something that the Logies I think need to
S1: get better at doing. I think you made this point, Thomas,
S1: on the night in the blog like there's too often
S1: these moments of the Logies, which are harking back to
S1: television of 20, 30, 40 years ago, and it's sort
S1: of just reminding all the executives who've been running the
S1: show for 50 years, ha ha ha, like this one's
S1: for you. But what they need to do is get
S1: more younger people excited about this event, about Australian television
S1: and more heartbreak. High kinds of people, more coming from
S1: accounts type stuff like the ensemble cast of the 12,
S1: which includes actors like Sam Neil, but a lot of
S1: younger actors as well. Like that to me should be
S1: heroes a bit more to get us really excited about
S1: Australian stories.
S2: Yeah, I think like every year there's always like and like,
S2: you know, no disrespect, but like there's always kind of
S2: like the allusions to like Bird and Graham in that year.
S2: And that was, that's a very important part of the legacy.
S2: And it's not that we shouldn't be honouring that, but
S2: like I would make the argument that like it's really
S2: been honoured and I think there is a we should
S2: be starting to see a shift towards like, like why
S2: didn't the Heartbreak High cast like presenting an award? Like
S2: how to me would have been a no brainer to
S2: like get the Bluey team to do an animation where
S2: Bluey presents an award? Like aside from the fact they're
S2: two of our biggest cultural exports over the last year,
S2: they're also like the things that new audiences care about. Like,
S2: do we need to have a sketch about like Bert
S2: and Patti Newton? Like, again, No, not that they're so important,
S2: but like, if we're trying to safeguard the future and
S2: improve this award, like these are the things they should be.
S3: Doing, I guess the challenge for them is how do
S3: they bring a new audience in without alienating their existing
S3: audience who only want to see the David Hughes of
S3: the world on screen?
S1: Let's get to the big one. This is something that
S1: I was thinking about in the days leading up to
S1: the award. I think, Thomas, you can testify to the
S1: fact that I had a had a feeling this was
S1: going to happen and I was sort of.
S2: Prepared for I told you you were wrong. And lo
S2: and behold, you were right.
S1: So maybe the best place to start, right? So the
S1: Gold Logie is the most prestigious award handed out. It's
S1: had a funny history. Aside from the stories we mentioned
S1: about Tom Gleason kind of, you know, having fun with it,
S1: like Lisa McKeown won it for four years in a
S1: row in the 90s. I think Rove McManus won it
S1: three years in a row. So, you know, it's interesting.
S1: It certainly is very well respected. And when people like
S1: Waleed and Kerry win and use that platform to give speeches,
S1: it's seen as a really transcendent moment for Australian entertainment
S1: industry culture. This year there were basically two favourites for it,
S1: I think. Hamish Blake from Lego Masters and Sonia Kruger
S1: from assorted seven programmes. And according to the betting odds,
S1: Hamish was the favourite. You know, he's won it twice
S1: before he won it last year. He is, I think,
S1: objectively more popular than almost anyone else in the race.
S1: He's on more popular shows. He's one of the most
S1: beloved and nicest guys in Australian TV, but it also
S1: seemed like he was not running that seriously. He wasn't
S1: doing massive media appearances. Even when you tried to speak
S1: to him on the red carpet, Tom, it's like he
S1: wasn't that keen to do it, which I thought was
S1: really telling because for the first year ever, voting for
S1: the Gold Logie only was open the entire broadcast. So
S1: if you really wanted to win that award, you would
S1: use the red carpet as your opportunity to plug yourself.
S2: Also worth noting that for the first time ever, a
S2: Gold Logie nominee hosted the red carpet coverage for the
S2: network that was broadcasting the Logies.
S1: And that brings us to Sonia Kruger, who was very
S1: present across everything. She was the person that the Channel
S1: Seven News team was, was reminding viewers to to vote for.
S1: She hosted the red carpet coverage. A lot of Channel
S1: seven personalities like Dr. Chris Brown, the the handsome vet
S1: who's jumped ship. Channel seven was doing really awkward statements
S1: about why she should win. It seemed very clear that
S1: Channel Seven was putting a lot of time and effort
S1: and resources into getting her the gold, and I started
S1: to think that seemed likely to happen because of what
S1: Hamish was not really doing. And I started to feel
S1: like a little bit like queasy about it, to be
S1: really honest. Sonia Kruger For people who don't know, has
S1: like a not insignificant controversy section on a Wikipedia page.
S1: But the thing that is the real standout, at least
S1: for me, these comments she made in 2016 and we
S1: should say the comments were made on the Today Show,
S1: which is broadcast on nine and nine, owns our newspapers,
S1: the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
S5: Personally, I think Andrew Bolt has a point here that
S5: there is a correlation between the number of people who,
S5: you know, are Muslim in a country and the number
S5: of terrorist attacks. Now I have a lot of very
S5: good friends who are Muslim, who are peace loving, who
S5: are beautiful people, but there are fanatics. And does the
S5: population and the correlation between those two things, is it
S5: having an impact? I mean, if you look at Japan,
S5: Japan has a population of and.
S1: She says that personally I would like to see it.
S1: The immigration of Muslims stopped now for Australia.
S4: Just to clarify, are you saying that you would like
S4: our borders closed to Muslims at this point? Yes, I would.
S5: I would because I think at this is.
S4: The Donald Trump.
S5: I think we have something like 500,000 now in our
S5: country and and well, perhaps it is. But for the
S5: safety of the citizens here, I think it's important.
S1: And that was 2016. The context of that was Donald Trump, obviously,
S1: you know, trying to do the same kind of thing.
S1: Those comments were like, I don't want to say widely condemned,
S1: but they were condemned by lots of people in Australia
S1: and particularly high profile Muslim Australians as well. She was
S1: taken to the New South Wales Civil and Administrative Tribunal
S1: and in 2019 that tribunal found that she had vilified
S1: Muslims over those comments. The tribunal said that while Kruger
S1: had made it clear she did not think every Muslim
S1: in Australia overseas was a fanatic. Taken in context, her
S1: comments were likely to encourage or incite feelings of hatred
S1: towards or serious contempt for Australian Muslims as a whole
S1: by linking them to terrorist attacks. Now that's that's like
S1: not a small controversy. That's a pretty big, heavy thing
S1: that is sort of stuck around. And Kruger has never
S1: publicly walked those comments back or apologize for them. So
S1: for someone like me, seeing her inch closer towards receiving
S1: one of the most prestigious awards that this country gives
S1: to people and certainly the most prestigious award we give
S1: out in the entertainment industry was a little bit like
S1: distressing and upsetting seeing her win that award was case
S1: a confirmation of like a lot of the uneasiness I
S1: had felt. And as someone who covers television every day,
S1: it's my job. Do it with you guys. Do it
S1: with our great team. Who cares a lot about this
S1: country's cultural output? The stories we tell, seeing that recognized
S1: and seeing that person put on that platform without ever
S1: having expressed any contrition alongside the likes of Waleed and
S1: Carrie and beating people like Michael Smith and and Hamish Blake,
S1: it left me feeling really distressed and sad and depressed
S1: about where we are as as a country. There's a
S1: lot to get into. And I'm sorry that I'm probably
S1: waffling on a little bit, but I think one of
S1: the things that's really stood out to me this whole
S1: time is there's no way this would ever happen at
S1: the Emmys or at the Oscars or at the Grammys.
S1: Like there is no way it would happen. And if
S1: someone like that was even nominated, there would be very
S1: vocal public protests and backlash to it. And I think
S1: what I'm more interested in, or at least like what
S1: I'm really interested in, is talking about why there seems
S1: to have been so little discussion in the lead up
S1: to these awards after she was nominated and in the
S1: aftermath in Australia when I think it would have happened
S1: in the UK, it would have happened in the US.
S1: I understand I've got more of a personal sort of
S1: connection to this thing, given my background than either of
S1: you guys. But I am interested in hearing how you
S1: guys felt about that award either in their lead up
S1: or afterwards. I know, Thomas, you've spoken to heaps of people.
S1: You were there that night. How did you feel? Anything
S1: you want to you want to share?
S2: Yeah. I mean, it was a very interesting moment because
S2: obviously you and I had discussed that. And to me anyway,
S2: I thought that was a very obvious thing that people
S2: were going to be up for discussing. And the way
S2: it works, basically, you know, whoever wins the Gold Logie,
S2: they go up on stage, they do their speech, then
S2: they go into one media room, which is run by
S2: TV Week, and they do some interviews and get some
S2: photos done for the following weeks magazine. Then they come
S2: into a general media room where like a press pack
S2: is waiting and, you know, they get some photos and
S2: they answer questions. And Sonia came in and, you know,
S2: she faced a few questions. And I was kind of
S2: like waiting, waiting for someone to bring it up. And
S2: I knew that I wanted to talk about it. And
S2: then when I did get my chance to speak with Sonia,
S2: we we spoke about lots of different things. But when
S2: we kind of came to this moment that I wanted
S2: to discuss with her, especially because it is worth noting,
S2: like the the not backlash, but the reaction to her
S2: win was pretty instantaneous, both in terms of like know
S2: there were people supporting her, but there were people that
S2: immediately brought this up because like you said, it is
S2: a significant part of her career and she's had ups
S2: and downs. But this is like, yeah, this is on
S2: the Wikipedia list. And when I brought it up with her,
S2: to be honest, Sonia, it seemed a bit lost for
S2: words and then it was promptly shut down by the
S2: publicist running the room. And it was kind of like,
S2: This is not for discussion tonight. This is a big
S2: golden moment. And that was the end of that. And
S2: I was really surprised. And and I wasn't surprised, though,
S2: that the next day lots of stories followed yours. Oseman
S2: kind of raising this because it is worth talking about.
S2: And I think specifically and this is my biggest issue
S2: with it, you know, it's not about she ever made
S2: these comments as as bad as they are, people say
S2: things and later regret them. And that's you know that's okay.
S2: But the fact that they've never been addressed, never been
S2: talked about, never been walked back, never even like come
S2: up again. And that was probably the most jarring thing
S2: for me and a lot of people that I've spoken
S2: to since, as sad as this sounds, people were like, Oh,
S2: I just forgot about it. I just forgot that she
S2: ever said them. And you know, it was 2016, I think,
S2: when the comments were made. But a lot of people
S2: just seem to it didn't even register on their radar
S2: or it's just been like wiped.
S3: And it was an opportunity that maybe she could have
S3: used the platform to issue a kind of apology and
S3: to make a more positive statement to correct the past.
S3: But she kind of didn't want to address it and
S3: hasn't addressed it since, which I think is a real
S3: missed opportunity for her. If she has changed from those
S3: views she held in 2016, it would have been an
S3: opportunity to talk about why she's changed and why she
S3: said what she said at the time and how she
S3: feels now. But the complete absence of addressing those comments
S3: makes you think she maybe maybe those comments are still
S3: what she believes.
S2: Yeah, and I think what's particularly interesting is that, you know,
S2: it's not to say that anyone in any other awards
S2: ceremony in the world, especially you said, the UK and
S2: the US, like it's not to say that anyone hasn't
S2: won an award that probably has some serious skeletons in
S2: the closet. But the thing about this is that it's
S2: the most popular award. So it's not like, you know,
S2: Sonia's won an award for acting and even though she's
S2: a bit, you know, problematic, but like, you know, her
S2: performance in X was really good. This is the most
S2: popular like this is voted because people like her and
S2: like what she represents and what she does on screen,
S2: but like it's the whole package. And so, like, that
S2: does really make this this incident important in the context
S2: of that win.
S3: But also, what is it with Australian TV that like
S3: once you get a hosting job, you just have it
S3: for the rest of your life forever, like you do
S3: one Dancing with the Stars and then you will be like,
S3: I think it speaks to what we often talk about
S3: the need for fresh talent because you just have these
S3: same people and it's almost like maybe you get a
S3: hall pass for your errors because you know you've done
S3: so many other things and you do so many other
S3: things and there's no one to replace you or the
S3: perception that there's no one to replace you. But it's
S3: kind of like, are you I feel like so many
S3: of so many hosts are unfavourable to some extent, yeah.
S1: It's a lot of a lot of talk about like,
S1: do you want to cancel this person? You know, you
S1: don't want this person to never be on TV again.
S1: Australian TV is never at risk of that. Like when
S1: Darrell Summers is still hosting Dancing with the Stars with
S1: Sonia Kruger and he handed her the Gold Logie. And
S1: and to be honest, like, I don't even know if
S1: the argument here is Sonia Kruger should be off TV
S1: or Senator Krueger should not be eligible for the gold logo.
S1: Sonia Kruger could never win an award. I don't really
S1: think that's what this is about. I think it's about
S1: exactly what you guys were just saying, is the fact
S1: that without needing to reckon with those comments or really
S1: anyone in the industry asking her to reckon with them
S1: and what's happened since 2016, it's not like she said
S1: something at a time that was particularly bad and now
S1: we live in this great land of fairies and meadows
S1: like the sum of phobia across the Western world has
S1: has increased. The far right is more emboldened than. Ever
S1: like these are things. These are ideas. These are the
S1: kinds of bits of rhetoric that like, I think, do
S1: have an impact on the way people feel and the
S1: kinds of conversations we have in this country. And so
S1: the idea that you can say something like that and
S1: the entertainment industry, which in so many other ways regards
S1: itself as very progressive and like bleeding hot. Like there
S1: was a moment where Rachel Perkins, who runs black fellow
S1: films and one allergy, she led the crowd in a
S1: chant of like, vote yes, vote yes for the upcoming
S1: referendum on on the Voice. So people want to think
S1: of themselves as being like really well-meaning, and they're trying
S1: the best to fix diversity. But at the same time,
S1: no one really wants to talk about this. Like, I
S1: still think it's odd that a few days after the event,
S1: the only people who've really written about this are like me,
S1: another Muslim guy in and a muslim colleague of ours
S1: who writes for pedestrian. There hasn't really been anyone else
S1: coming out and saying this is a little bit weird. Like,
S1: what does this mean? Does this mean there is no bar?
S1: There's nothing that anyone can say, no tribunal finding that
S1: can be delivered. That means that you have to at
S1: least grapple with what you've said in the impact of
S1: what you said. Before we shower you with the biggest
S1: award we have as an industry and in particular, I
S1: think what I'm really sad about is out of the
S1: thousands of people that attended the Logies and were there
S1: and were part of the anointing of Kruger, many of
S1: them have contacted me personally and said, Thanks for writing
S1: that piece like lots of them have, and that's really nice.
S1: But none of them have said anything publicly, and I
S1: think that speaks to a general insularity in this industry.
S1: It's very small. Everyone knows everyone. No one wants to
S1: annoy powerful people. No one wants to be seen as
S1: being a troublemaker. I know that. I sound like I'm
S1: kind of contradicting myself. I'm not necessarily angry at those people.
S1: I'm not demanding anyone does anything. But I think it is.
S1: Reflective of how things work here. And I think that's
S1: worth noting and I'm glad that I got to write
S1: that piece and I'm glad that people read it and
S1: I'm glad that I can talk about it with you guys,
S1: because I do think it's a bit of a nadir.
S1: And I hope that even if there isn't heaps of
S1: public conversation about this, people are thinking about it and
S1: are talking about it and are going to start expecting
S1: a little bit better from who we decide to anoint
S1: as the biggest television personality in this country. Thomas are
S1: you at all surprised about the lack of discourse publicly
S1: from people, or are you just like, this is how
S1: this industry kind of operates?
S2: Yeah, I guess I am. And I'm not like I
S2: probably not because as you said, you know, Australian TV
S2: is a small pond and even the people at the
S2: top are worried about their next job. I guess I
S2: found it uneasy to watch what was a very high
S2: profile campaign from seven and seven talent pushing Sonya on
S2: your Sonya. And you know, I having previously worked at
S2: the Seven Network and knowing a lot of these people
S2: and knowing kind of like where they stand on things,
S2: I just found it interesting to kind of watch, you know,
S2: this very public support. And I struggled to reconcile knowing
S2: how they feel about certain things. And then the public
S2: support for someone who has said these things. And yeah,
S2: it does make for an interesting kind of like dynamic,
S2: but like even someone like Nazeem Hussain, the comedian, you know,
S2: he he did publicly tweet following Sonia's win saying he
S2: was returning from a gig in New Zealand. Like, am
S2: I just seeing Sonia Kruger's kind of like won the gold?
S2: Am I going to be allowed back in the country?
S2: He later removed that tweet and like, I don't know
S2: why he did that, but, you know, potentially it was like,
S2: is this is this worth it for me? Is this
S2: worth it? Maybe putting the powers that be at one
S2: of the biggest networks in Australia where hopefully we'll get
S2: some work at some point, like offside because I'm like
S2: pissed off about this personally. Like I'll just sleep on
S2: it and just have to get over it. I mean, again,
S2: that's just me reading between the lines, but it's just
S2: one of those things that it is. It is a
S2: small pond and it's hard to get work at the
S2: best of times. And so people are no doubt feeling like,
S2: is it worth risking my potential future earnings by kind
S2: of coming out and saying what I think you rather
S2: just like I'll just internalize it and move on.
S1: Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And
S1: I think, again, you know, the more I thought about it,
S1: nothing I've said about this or am saying about this
S1: is some sort of plea for people to speak up
S1: and do whatever. I think I was pretty clear in
S1: the the article I wrote about it that. Everything you
S1: said is right. Like this is a structural problem across
S1: this industry and it's not a moral failing to not
S1: want to risk your livelihood. Right. To like take a
S1: shot at someone. Because you can also argue that like,
S1: what does that do after the fact? You know, it
S1: makes you kind of feel feel good or like send
S1: a bit of a signal. But is that changing anything
S1: for the better? Not necessarily. I think ultimately I just
S1: hope that the people who did read mine and others
S1: stories on this and see how it hurts the people
S1: who are at the nexus of these two things like
S1: being Muslim and caring too much about Australian TV. I
S1: don't know how many of us there are, but like
S1: those of us in particular, like I'm upset because I
S1: am one of the weirdos who is invested in the
S1: lodges and is invested in Australian television and it makes
S1: me feel really deflated that people I know that I
S1: work with, that I report on that I've known for
S1: a long time. Saw this happen, helped make it happen.
S1: And then when it did happen. Didn't do anything about it.
S1: That's the thing that leaves me feeling the sort of flattest.
S1: And I think as we see this prestige, amazing world
S1: of television coming out of the US and we're at
S1: to talk about The Bear, which is a show that
S1: is like fun and diverse and exciting. And you see
S1: their cast on strike fighting for their colleagues and pushing
S1: forward really interesting ideas about what it means to make
S1: art and what the purpose of acting and writing is.
S1: It's just a big contrast, I think, to what we
S1: saw on Sunday night.
S3: Yeah, and I know this doesn't make everything better, but
S3: I think we're all very proud to work at a
S3: publication and to see you publish that piece, which was
S3: so brilliant. And if people haven't read it, they should
S3: definitely go and read it. And like maybe it's a
S3: bit naively optimistic, but I do think a piece like
S3: that will make a difference for people who maybe haven't
S3: thought about these issues or have only thought about it
S3: a little. I do have faith that pieces like your
S3: piece will kind of change the dial, even if it's
S3: only a small start.
S2: And then this time next year you'll be up on
S2: that platform holding the Gold Logie Inshallah that.
S3: We are going to campaign hard.
S1: Should we? Should we? All three of us are on TV.
S1: We have like, you know, regular bits on today, extra
S1: on Channel nine. We should nominate ourselves for most popular
S1: or outstanding presenters. If Amy can do it for judging
S1: a show no one watches.
S3: You could be best new talent. Thomas I love.
S2: That. I would actually love that. Of course I would
S2: give a cracking.
S1: Get Thomas ology. The campaign starts. This is great. Let's
S1: move on to something way more fun and less grim.
S1: The Bear. We had a great chat about it last week.
S1: Mel was roasted by all her family, friends and bosses
S1: at this company. I want I go to you first, Mel,
S1: because I've got a feeling that I know what you're
S1: going to say the second of five episodes of this show.
S1: How did that make you feel about this season?
S3: Tell me, what do you think I'm going to say?
S1: Well, I think you're going to say they're fucking great.
S1: And it changed my view entirely because I personally like
S1: while I was close to the Thomas than you, I
S1: had some quibbles about it, but I honestly think these
S1: five episodes were like five of the best episodes of
S1: TV I've seen this year.
S3: Yeah, I mean, I don't really need to comment. You've
S3: said it for me. I don't I don't wind back
S3: my kind of like Sonia Kruger. Don't wind back my
S3: my former comments. I think 1 to 5 I my
S3: points all still stand it was a bit obvious and
S3: a bit sickly sweet. And I do think there was
S3: still moments of that in the last five episodes, like
S3: there were still a few obvious feelgood or overly sentimental moments.
S3: But I do think episode six and seven, which was
S3: the family Christmas Fishers and Forks were pretty amazing episodes
S3: and also the finale. So yeah, it definitely won me
S3: over because the good started to outweigh what I saw.
S3: Is that the bad in the show? There you go.
S3: Go on. I'm just go on.
S1: Have you gloating moment.
S2: I've been doing it like for the last two days,
S2: ever since. I was like, Actually, the bed is pretty good.
S2: I put my hand up, I was wrong. And I
S2: was like, Well, let me get that on tape. Okay?
S3: I never said I was wrong.
S1: She didn't say that on tape. No.
S2: That's sort of triggering to now.
S3: Yes. Yes. Can I just say sorry? I walked into
S3: the office the other day and Thomas was like, oh,
S3: we can't talk about it anymore. And Thomas and another colleague,
S3: music writer Rob Moran, had been discussing my views on
S3: the podcast before I came into the office. Thomas was
S3: reading Rob My Slack conversation with him. It's been a
S3: real yeah, because I've been very ostracised.
S2: You have? But you've come around now and I'm glad
S2: that you have a heart and you can feel things.
S2: And I really do think, you know, I loved the
S2: first five episodes, but wow, this show like really picked
S2: up in episode 6 to 10. Like, honestly, probably the
S2: best show of the year for me, including succession, like
S2: just the way it like, grabbed your heart and just
S2: fucking squeezes it. It was beautiful. And I know we
S2: have a lot to talk about, but the finale I
S2: thought was also it was a very hard show to
S2: wrap up because it does play in those areas. That
S2: can be cliched, but it did it so well and
S2: as well as very obviously setting up a third season.
S2: But in that back half, it delivered some of the
S2: best moments of TV, which I would love to discuss.
S1: I reckon at the end of the year we're going
S1: to do like a best of TV catch up. I
S1: did not expect to find myself in this position, but
S1: I do think that after these five episodes it is
S1: head to head with succession like it may creep over
S1: the line. I think there's a little bit of recency
S1: bias for me, having just watched it and gone through
S1: like this emotional roller coaster with it. But it is extraordinary.
S1: Let's start let's talk a little bit about that sixth episode,
S1: Fishes The Christmas one. This is the one, Thomas, that
S1: you sort of foreshadowed, has an stacked cast, an incredible cast.
S1: But what I thought, what I didn't expect, having heard
S1: that there were all these cameos. Normally when that's done
S1: in a show like this, it's like for comedic effect.
S1: It's like we got Gillian Jacobs and you know, we
S1: got Bob Odenkirk in there from funny shows and they're
S1: having a great time. And there was definitely like some
S1: humor in this episode, but this was overwhelmingly a very
S1: traumatic and stressful episode that was full of drama, full
S1: of tension, but also helped us understand why the, the
S1: Bear family are like kind of fucked up and why
S1: Carmy is haunted and driven by these certain things. And
S1: we saw things that explained a lot, but also set
S1: things up in a narrative sense for the rest of
S1: this season. It was such a smart and impressive feat
S1: while also introducing us to these big actors that there
S1: was a risk that we'd get distracted by them. I
S1: just thought, I've never seen an ensemble cameo episode done this.
S3: Well, yeah, I agree. And I thought Jamie Lee Curtis,
S3: who plays Khamis mum, was just sensational, like just on
S3: a knife edge of emotions between kind of being really
S3: happy to being completely unhinged. And that episode just, I
S3: guess it is kind of like some of the best
S3: succession episodes. There was no let up of the tension
S3: and it just built and built and built and it
S3: was almost too much, wasn't it? It was more suffocating
S3: in many ways than being in the kitchen because you
S3: didn't know what was going to happen or where it
S3: was going to go and there was no real reprieve.
S2: Yeah, it actually kind of weirdly reminded me of Bor
S2: on the floor, like because they're all sitting around. It's like,
S2: you know, the table, the kitchen table, the dining table
S2: is like a big part of the episode. And it's
S2: similar to boring the floor when, you know, Logan is
S2: kind of going around mind fucking everyone. It's just that, yeah,
S2: it is. That tension doesn't let up. And like, I mean,
S2: we do spend some time in the kitchen. You've got
S2: Khamis mum like making this insane seven fish dish, like
S2: Italian tradition. You've got this buzzer like timer going off.
S2: There's like sauce splattering everywhere. And then we get to
S2: the dinner and it's like Christmas dinner, and it's just
S2: like this fucking mental illness, like, laid out on the
S2: table for everybody. And then you've got Kimmy's older brother
S2: who's still alive.
S1: Until throwing forks. Yeah.
S2: Like, and it's just, I mean, I think anyone who
S2: comes from, like, a large family or any family at all,
S2: everyone's weird in their own way, can empathize and kind
S2: of like tap into that weirdness that kind of is
S2: comes to the surface when you put all those people
S2: in the same room. But when you do have all
S2: these different dynamics and obviously a lot of. Kind of
S2: like scar tissue in that family from wounds of the past.
S2: It just was so, like, uncomfortable but like intoxicating to
S2: watch it. And then especially again, I love this so
S2: much about the bear. Like Carmy is just has been
S2: such a fucking background character this season. And like that
S2: episode was not about he barely spoke in that episode,
S2: saved for like one quite nice scene with his brother.
S2: It was all about, you know, the mom and Bob
S2: Odenkirk character and Mikey, the older brother played by Jon
S2: Bernthal and, and yeah. And then in a way it
S2: sets up the rest of the season because we get
S2: a lot of things signposted.
S1: Fun fact for you. Gillian Jacobs Right. Who we know
S1: from community she know who her partner is in real life.
S2: Yeah. Yes, I do, actually.
S3: Yeah, we, I think we went, we were going down
S3: this deep dive. But refresh our memory.
S1: It's Christopher Dora the.
S2: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
S3: I love her in love. That show on Netflix. Did
S3: you ever watch that? Yeah.
S2: Loves love also. I don't know. But like, fun fact
S2: is kind of my IP, so I just wonder.
S1: Well, actually, no, I started it back. Yeah, but I
S1: made it was the first one to do it. And
S1: you ripped it out of my hands.
S2: It wasn't very fun.
S12: When you did it.
S3: You just did. Fact. I think you're right, though. None
S3: of the none of the cameos overshadowed each other. Like
S3: they worked so well as an ensemble. Gillian Jacobs, I
S3: thought was great. Just like throwing up in the background,
S3: this very kind of physical embodiment of what was playing
S3: out at the table. Bob Odenkirk Building that tension with
S3: the fork was perfection. Yeah, I think as a team,
S3: they all worked so well.
S1: Did you got a bit of a bit of Osmond
S1: Thomas Vibes, the Bernthal Oh yeah.
S2: I did, yeah. Just two alphas going at it.
S3: I don't know what that makes me.
S2: You're Donna.
S3: Wow.
S2: But then and I think what's again, so incredible is
S2: that that episode I finished it, I was like, oh
S2: my God, so much PTSD in watching that, but amazing.
S2: And then lo and behold, episode seven, I'm like, Is
S2: this even fucking better? Richie Oh.
S1: Gosh. So I reckon this is even better. Like, I
S1: reckon it is actually better because I've been a Richie
S1: guy from day one. You love Richie and him having
S1: his own arc and it making sense and it being
S1: so beautiful about him finding meaning in life, about him
S1: understanding what hospitality really is about. A cameo from Oscar
S1: winner Olivia Colman, two Oscar winners in a row. At
S1: the end, a Taylor Swift needle drop love story like
S1: my favorite Taylor Swift song. I know. It's like a
S1: real basic take, but it is.
S2: This, those big open areas. There's a lot of it was.
S1: Like it was made for me. It's like my guy
S1: doing the hospital thing, singing along to Taylor Swift, Olivia
S1: Colman in there peeling mushrooms, just like fantastic stuff.
S3: I agree. Richie completely stole this season for me. I
S3: do have one small quibble with do you? My only issue,
S3: and again, this was what was annoying me in the
S3: first with these standalone issues.
S1: I thought you might have some thoughts about this because
S1: this is the most like guy goes on journey and
S1: realizes the meaning of life kind of episode.
S3: Exactly. And I loved I love the episode, I love
S3: the repetition of the getting up and looking at the clock.
S3: The scene with Gillian Jacobs was heartbreaking, the singing in
S3: the car. But then it just upset me a little.
S3: It was tied off, I thought, quite neatly. In the end,
S3: when he goes back to the restaurant and he's like,
S3: Now I'm ready to be a project manager. Like it
S3: happened very fast, all in one episode.
S1: Yeah, I wear suits now and I'm like, I've been
S1: here for a week, like five days and now I'm
S1: like a professor. Like, I understand that. And I think,
S1: you know, this is it's like more like traditional TV
S1: than the prestige stuff that we're used to, where there's
S1: still so much complex and nuance. But like, I get that.
S1: Mel Like, I do get it. But also it was
S1: also great to see him like to change and to
S1: learn and then enact some of those things and maybe
S1: next season will see him unravel a bit. Like, I
S1: feel like we're never just going to this show brings
S1: people forward and then watches them fall as well. I
S1: think that's the thing it does. How did you find
S1: the Richie Thomas?
S2: Yeah, I thought it was amazing to watch him kind
S2: of like, you know, the season basically begins with him
S2: talking about purpose and like setting up this whole thing
S2: for the show. But he is someone that has been
S2: like probably like a massive dick for the whole show.
S2: Like he he's he's that person that everyone kind of knows.
S2: And you like him, but he's like pretty annoying, but
S2: he's lovable. And then to find his place was really nice. Yeah.
S2: Like again there was lots of magic of TV. Like
S2: in a week he becomes this amazing front of house
S2: guy and, you know, he just it all clicks and.
S2: And that's all good. But I was prepared to suspend,
S2: you know, my belief and let that wash over me.
S2: And I thought it was like there were some really
S2: beautiful moments when he goes to get the deep dish
S2: and then the chef, like, recreates the, like, you know,
S2: kind of like up markets, the deep dish. And he's
S2: so because he's so like Chicago proud and stuff. And
S2: so he was so like happy to give those people
S2: that Chicago experience and stuff. And yeah, it was it
S2: was a very beautiful episode. I do just need to
S2: draw something from the record. Ari The Rich Yep. So
S2: Mel and I were texting and she said, I really liked.
S1: The texting without me.
S2: This is like, Yeah, yeah. It's called Don't Chat to
S2: Osman Threads. Probably my favorite one. Oh, I really liked
S2: the rich. Yep. And I said, Me too. So nice.
S2: And then Mel said I liked it until his redemption.
S2: And then I said, Why are you so dead inside?
S2: And she said, I'm not dead inside. I just don't
S2: like predictable art.
S1: That sounds like you're dead inside, frankly.
S12: Thank you.
S1: What? Literally what it said.
S3: I just thought it was so nuanced and subtle until
S3: that last kind of bow was put on it. And
S3: I thought he was a very restrained actor. And the
S3: emotions were restrained, but real. And yeah, I just don't
S3: think they needed to tie it all up so quickly.
S3: But I understand why for the purposes of plot they did.
S1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, again, it's annoying because you're
S1: not wrong. Like it is literally the most Ted lasso
S1: episode of the show. Like you are right in that
S1: and I think it just maybe, you know, maybe Thomas
S1: and I have either slightly more faith in humanity or
S1: we just, like, see more of ourselves in him.
S2: Yeah, but also, you and I are big empaths.
S12: And Mel.
S3: You know what I reckon? I reckon we're going to
S3: start a chat without Thomas.
S12: Hear you. I'm sorry.
S2: I'm the glue. I'm the buffer.
S1: Let's get to the. The finale, which also was like,
S1: I kind of just came out of nowhere for me. Like,
S1: I did not know what was going to happen here.
S1: The restaurant's up and running. Things are working pretty well. Like,
S1: there's like, there's some issues, you know, like one of
S1: the one of the chefs leaves to go smoke crack
S1: in an alley like this. There's some challenges. The mom
S1: doesn't really want to come, but this climax, where Carmy
S1: gets locked in a fridge and has a meltdown because
S1: that is the sort of like summation of his failures
S1: from his perspective and the way they use that to
S1: see him have these conversations with, you know, with Syd,
S1: with Tina, then with his girlfriend, and then ultimately the
S1: big fight with Richie. Like, gosh, like I really felt
S1: that like, I felt every emotion in that scene.
S3: Yeah. Total Chef's Kiss for this episode. There were a
S3: few real standout moments. Pete and Donna, who knew Pete
S3: would really perform such a role? That encounter outside the
S3: restaurant where she's saying, Just tell me I don't have
S3: to come in. And then Pete returning and crying at
S3: the table. I thought it was just I did not
S3: see that coming. I thought it was so nicely done
S3: and such a quiet moment between these two kind of
S3: side characters.
S13: I want you to go back in. Just don't tell
S13: them you saw me, because this isn't what it. What
S13: do you mean you can't take it? I love them
S13: so much. I had a show in. I don't have
S13: to say I'm sorry. So please, just please, just go
S13: in and just tell me it's okay.
S2: Yeah, and especially because Pete has been like a real joke,
S2: you know, they all just, like, hang shit on him.
S2: And so, you know, it was really nice to see
S2: how impacted he was. And again, I just think like,
S2: you know, like the Donna character, she's so obviously fucked up,
S2: but she gets there and she, like, she doesn't want
S2: to ruin what she thinks is going to be like.
S2: She knows that her very presence in the room will
S2: taint what is like a big moment for her children.
S2: And she does love them in her own weird way
S2: as much as she is capable. Like that's her showing it.
S2: And it's just it's just so twisted. And then ultimately,
S2: we do get to this moment with Kami where, like,
S2: I know we keep bringing succession into it, but like,
S2: you know, the poison has very much dripped through both
S2: to him and his brother, who is now dead. But
S2: then Kami gets like trapped in this prison of his
S2: own making because like so many times throughout the season,
S2: we saw him not fix the door handle to the fridge.
S2: That's what they call a Chekhov's gun, in case you
S2: guys don't know.
S12: Don't know a lot of questions. No follow up questions.
S2: That was such a sitcom moment. Like I'm stuck in
S2: the fridge, but it was like fucking amazing. And just
S2: to watch him unravel and begin to question like this
S2: season has been so much framed in like, what is
S2: my purpose? But Kami is the one that has had
S2: to like, almost step away from his, like, God given
S2: talent to become a real human and a real person.
S2: And he's found that in Claire and he's starting to
S2: see there's more to life than just like fixating on
S2: his obsession. And he just like, you know, like, admonishes
S2: himself for letting himself get distracted by life, right?
S14: What the fuck was I thinking? Like, I was going
S14: to be in a relationship. I'm a fucking. I'm a
S14: fucking psycho. That's why. That's why I'm good at what
S14: I do. That's how I operate. I am the best
S14: because I didn't have any of this fucking bullshit. Right?
S14: I could. I could focus and I could concentrate. And
S14: I had a routine and I had fucking cell reception and.
S14: I don't need to provide amusement or enjoyment.
S15: I don't need to receive any amusement or enjoyment. I'm
S15: completely fine with that. Because no amount of good is
S15: worth how terrible this feels.
S2: And, you know, he gives this big speech like I
S2: feel like every season in the band now we're going
S2: to get like one carmy monologue. Like last season it
S2: was in like AA or whatever. He gives this big
S2: speech about like, you know, I don't I was the
S2: best because I didn't have any of this fucking bullshit.
S2: I don't need to provide a comedy monologue.
S3: Here we.
S12: Go. I don't need.
S2: To receive any amusement or joy. And I'm completely fine
S2: with that because no amount is worth no amount of
S2: good is worth how terrible this feels. And then lo
S2: and behold, we see they pan out and Claire is
S2: standing on the other side. And I just thought all
S2: of it again was like, So if you put your
S2: glasses on, you could see it as like, Oh, this
S2: is so predictable and stuff and I know you liked it.
S2: So I'm But like it was, it was amazing and
S2: like it fucking I felt that awe. And I think
S2: a lot of people watching were like, Oh, that. And
S2: then it ends with this very, very intense fight between
S2: Richie and Kami where they kind of say all the
S2: things they haven't been saying to each other for an
S2: entire season. And again, it had massive like Tom and
S2: Shiv on the balcony vibes.
S1: Yeah, Yeah. And I think one of the bravest things
S1: this show does is it makes Kami out to be
S1: probably one of the worst characters, 100% show. And I
S1: think that's a big swing for a show that is
S1: kind of named after him is about him and makes
S1: us sort of empathize with him because Jim White is
S1: so compelling and so good and we all love his arms.
S1: He looks great and white and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
S1: But his comments to Claire like he's in the wrong,
S1: like Claire has done nothing but support him and help him.
S1: And he can't quite handle how to do both. And Richie,
S1: like we've just seen Richie go on this journey where
S1: he's listened to calm. He's done what Calm wanted. He
S1: stepped up for calm. He's running the restaurant and calm
S1: can't crack it. And still he's like sort of mad
S1: at a Richie from a year ago. Rather than acknowledging
S1: the growth that Richie has gone on and the growth
S1: that he hasn't gone on is so obvious there.
S3: Yeah, that kind of annoyed me about me during this
S3: season was that he makes his emotional problems, everyone else's
S3: emotional problems like they've all got stuff going on as
S3: we've seen in the show. They've all got their own
S3: journeys to complete. But Carmy is just like dumping his
S3: feelings on everyone all the time, like on Sydney, whether
S3: they're under the table, on his sister, on Richie. And
S3: it's like, man, as the Stoics would say, stand up
S3: straight yourself.
S1: Yeah, that's such a good point. That's such a good point.
S1: Not I don't really understand what stoicism is, but my
S1: friend Bridget Delaney wrote a great book on stoicism. If
S1: you're listening. Bridget, I'm sorry, I haven't read it.
S3: Check it out. Don't worry. I gave you the I
S3: gave you the highlights.
S1: But. But yeah, the show really did go out of
S1: its way this season to show everyone dealing with stuff
S1: like Syd was dealing with, like expectations of a dad
S1: having to build this restaurant when Carmy went AWOL, like
S1: sugar is pregnant and dealing with the finances and dealing
S1: with the uncle and all of this stuff. Marcus's mom
S1: is sick and maybe dead at the end of this
S1: season right from those text messages.
S2: Plus, Marcus like shot his shot at Sydney and it
S2: did not go well.
S1: Yeah. And Richie, as we've said a couple of times,
S1: like dealing with like his his relationship with his family
S1: and and his own internal issues, like they're all dealing
S1: with stuff and they all stepped up and delivered and Tommy,
S1: what is Tommy's issue? He is trying to make a
S1: restaurant and also date this girl who seems really nice
S1: and like is to the extent that she's a manic
S1: pixie dream girl, like she's this male fantasy of a
S1: perfect woman and he can't handle that. And also do
S1: his fucking job. Like, step up, bro.
S3: I know. I really like the line. Actually, I was
S3: saying it this morning to Thomas. That maybe will become
S3: my mantra. That was like, if you want to be
S3: the man, be the man. And that's what I thought
S3: about for Carmy. I'm like, If you really want to
S3: do this, stop. Like, stop complaining about everything and just
S3: step up to the plate. Sir.
S2: Yeah, but I think like, that's why you see, like
S2: in the big fight between Richie and Carmy and like, what? Like,
S2: triggers carmy so much is that Richie says. Are you okay, Donna?
S14: Richie. What? What the fuck did you just say to
S14: that girl? Carmen? Shut the fuck up and get me
S14: the fuck out of here, please.
S16: Oh, yeah. I'll get you the fuck out of there, Donna.
S14: The fuck did you just say? I. What the fuck
S14: did you just say? Nothing. Richie, what the.
S2: Fuck did you say? Yeah. Basically says, like, calls him
S2: his mother's name, and he's like, you're being like your mother. Like,
S2: you're doing. You're, like, self-sabotaging. Like she does. And there's
S2: obviously this thing in the Bizarro Family where they don't
S2: believe that. They're like, I don't know, worthy of love
S2: or something. And so, like, they just fucking self-sabotage and like,
S2: it happened to the mom. We saw it in Fish's
S2: like obviously his older brother kills himself and like, Carmy
S2: is very much like, I think obviously spent his life
S2: running away from them. He like went to Copenhagen. He
S2: doesn't want to be near it and probably because he
S2: can see himself in it. And then, you know, like,
S2: lo and behold, when when Richie says that it really, like,
S2: triggers him because he knows it's a bit true. But yeah,
S2: I do think like, you know, the season ends with
S2: Claire kind of walking off presumably, you know, is that
S2: is that her leaving him? Maybe. I do think like
S2: in the real world that you could probably fix that
S2: relationship with like one really quick phone call.
S1: That's another thing. It's like, oh, I just overheard a conversation,
S1: I'm walking away. It's like, Hey, man, like you're probably
S1: been trapped in this fridge for like, I was probably
S1: a bit stressed, like, let's have a chat.
S2: Yeah, like he would get out of the fridge, drive
S2: to the house and be like, Obviously I was like,
S2: fucking weird in there, but like, I love you as well.
S12: And like. But also.
S3: She's a doctor and I was worried about his condition.
S3: I thought maybe I was like, maybe he's going to
S3: get hypothermia and Dr. Claire is going to come and
S3: help out. But that.
S12: Obviously that.
S1: Would have been that would have been like a more
S1: like an Er, you know, sort of Grey's Anatomy.
S2: I am curious to get your guys thoughts on, on
S2: where like it very obviously sets up a third season
S2: because essentially you know the launch of the bear to
S2: family and friends was a success. Despite Carmy being in
S2: the fridge, they kind of pulled it off without him,
S2: which is great. And we leave all the characters in
S2: a different position. But Carmy seeing is, is like essentially
S2: he's become too soft and too much of a real
S2: like person. And if he wants to be the best
S2: and be who he was, then he needs to just
S2: like shut that off. So my prediction for season three
S2: is we will cut to the first episode. The bear
S2: will have like two Michelin stars and Carmy will be
S2: a full fucking Joel McHale and everyone will be miserable.
S1: That's interesting. I sort of have the opposite theory that
S1: I think will go to the third season and it'll
S1: be shut down like it will have been, like something
S1: will have gone wrong. And it's like, What the hell
S1: do we do now? But I think either way, they're
S1: pretty dramatic. Like we're not expecting this next season to
S1: start with. It's all going well. Like, I wonder what
S1: the next issue could be.
S3: No, I think that.
S12: There's like no season three canceled. Well, there.
S1: Might not be. The strike means it's probably not going
S1: to happen for a while.
S3: That's true. I think Carmy will be out out of
S3: the restaurant. Everyone else will be holding it up. He'll
S3: be down on his luck drinking, taking drugs, being self destructive.
S3: And then I think the restaurant will all gather together
S3: to cook carmy the meal of love that will remind
S3: him why he loves food, why he loves his family
S3: and friends, and will bring him back to the fold.
S1: I know you're saying that. You're saying that with contempt.
S1: I can tell in terms of what you what you
S1: think this show is. That's that.
S12: Right? It's very possible.
S2: I mean, this won't surprise anyone. I seriously think I'm
S2: right because like they kind of set it up and
S2: that that is the perfect like trajectory because he will
S2: go and do what he does so well and he
S2: will make the restaurant what they all want it to be,
S2: but really like they'll all be fucking miserable. Whereas right
S2: now it's a good restaurant. It seems to be a
S2: good restaurant and they're all pretty happy, but he needs
S2: it to be the fucking best and it'll be like
S2: it'll get the hats and he'll do. He'll just like
S2: take over. It'll be like the fucking commie show, but
S2: everyone will hate it. And then it's like, What's the
S2: point of being here and what is purpose, guys?
S3: Well, I'm going to bring you that stove book.
S12: On.
S2: Chekhov that wants.
S1: I think we're actually at risk of breaking the strike
S1: rules by writing the show. So we probably should, like,
S1: put a pin in it. Guys, thanks for thanks for
S1: the conversation. Thanks for letting me emote slightly about the
S1: Logies and thanks for all of your thoughts on the bill.
S1: It was really fun to watch that one with. You
S1: got a lot of really nice comments from listeners saying
S1: I really reminded me of when you guys are doing
S1: succession things, it is really hard to find a show
S1: that everyone is watching and wants to talk about and
S1: also has enough in there to unpack. If anyone's watching
S1: stuff that you think we should be getting into, please
S1: let us know. There's a little bit of a quiet
S1: period coming up for TV, but we'll find things to
S1: talk about. Thomas Smell, Thanks again.
S3: Thank you. We're going to get you a gold glow.
S2: You let it rip.
S1: This episode of The Drop was produced by Kai Wong.
S1: If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop,
S1: make sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app.
S1: Leave us a review or better yet, share it with
S1: a friend. I'm Osman Farooqui. See you next week.