1 00:00:07,930 --> 00:00:10,930 S1: Hey there. I'm Osman Farooqui and this is The Drop, 2 00:00:10,930 --> 00:00:14,680 S1: a culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. 3 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:16,630 S1: And we dive into the latest in the world of 4 00:00:16,630 --> 00:00:20,620 S1: pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Thomas Mitchell and 5 00:00:20,620 --> 00:00:23,799 S1: Mel Kambouris. What's up, guys? Having a good week? How 6 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:24,489 S1: are we feeling? 7 00:00:24,550 --> 00:00:25,810 S2: Yeah, not too bad. 8 00:00:25,810 --> 00:00:27,790 S3: You've had a very big week. You've been at the 9 00:00:27,790 --> 00:00:30,550 S3: Logies behind the scenes. I'm very excited to hear all 10 00:00:30,550 --> 00:00:32,589 S3: the kind of industry Goss from you. 11 00:00:32,590 --> 00:00:35,440 S2: Yeah, it was one of the shortest Logies on record 12 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:36,430 S2: at 17 hours. 13 00:00:36,430 --> 00:00:40,269 S1: So I feel like we up until the Logies we 14 00:00:40,270 --> 00:00:43,780 S1: were having a pretty similar few days. We were all 15 00:00:43,780 --> 00:00:48,459 S1: watching the next five episodes of The Bear and texting 16 00:00:48,460 --> 00:00:50,290 S1: each other and Thomas, you and I were like, As 17 00:00:50,290 --> 00:00:53,199 S1: you might predict, if you listen to last week's episode 18 00:00:53,530 --> 00:00:55,450 S1: much more excitedly texting each other about it in a 19 00:00:55,450 --> 00:00:57,820 S1: group chat, Mel was, I don't know if you were 20 00:00:57,820 --> 00:01:00,430 S1: busy or just like you'd muted us. There wasn't a 21 00:01:00,430 --> 00:01:01,660 S1: lot of action from you. 22 00:01:01,660 --> 00:01:04,390 S3: Melanie I actually don't think we had similar weeks because 23 00:01:04,390 --> 00:01:08,110 S3: my week was fending off everyone in the world coming 24 00:01:08,110 --> 00:01:10,539 S3: up to me and saying, You're the worst person. You 25 00:01:10,540 --> 00:01:13,060 S3: hate the bear, you have no heart. You're a cold, 26 00:01:13,060 --> 00:01:16,750 S3: hard steak, as Thomas called me last week. So, no, 27 00:01:16,750 --> 00:01:18,340 S3: I think we had very different weeks. 28 00:01:18,790 --> 00:01:22,330 S1: Yeah. And then things things were great watching that show. 29 00:01:22,330 --> 00:01:24,730 S1: And then things got a little bit less great when 30 00:01:24,730 --> 00:01:28,030 S1: Thomas and I had to spend 11 hours covering television. 31 00:01:28,030 --> 00:01:32,020 S1: Self Declared Night of Night's the Logie Awards. And that's 32 00:01:32,020 --> 00:01:33,220 S1: what we're going to start with. We're going to come 33 00:01:33,220 --> 00:01:36,610 S1: back to the bear later on in this episode, wrap 34 00:01:36,610 --> 00:01:39,940 S1: up the second season. But in a normal year, I'm 35 00:01:39,940 --> 00:01:42,130 S1: not sure how much time the three of us would 36 00:01:42,130 --> 00:01:45,730 S1: devote on this podcast to talking about the Logies. But 37 00:01:45,730 --> 00:01:48,550 S1: I think there were a few bits and pieces from 38 00:01:48,550 --> 00:01:50,830 S1: the night that I think allow us to use the 39 00:01:50,830 --> 00:01:53,020 S1: awards as an opportunity to talk about the state of 40 00:01:53,020 --> 00:01:56,770 S1: Australian TV, the good and the bad of the entertainment industry. 41 00:01:56,770 --> 00:02:02,140 S1: But I think most significantly the Gold Logie going to 42 00:02:02,140 --> 00:02:05,320 S1: Sonia Kruger has something that has sparked a lot of 43 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:10,210 S1: conversation in the industry in Australia. I wrote a piece 44 00:02:10,210 --> 00:02:13,780 S1: about my feelings about that, given some of Sonia Kruger's 45 00:02:13,780 --> 00:02:18,760 S1: past comments on Muslims and her on the record statement 46 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:23,050 S1: that she was in 2016 in favour of a ban 47 00:02:23,050 --> 00:02:25,030 S1: on Muslim migration. 48 00:02:25,030 --> 00:02:28,200 S4: Indiscriminate the way. That's exactly right. But just just to clarify, Sonia, 49 00:02:28,210 --> 00:02:30,160 S4: are you saying that you would like our borders closed 50 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:31,750 S4: to Muslims at this point? 51 00:02:31,750 --> 00:02:34,270 S5: Yes, I would. I would because I think at this is. 52 00:02:34,270 --> 00:02:35,050 S4: The Donald Trump. I think. 53 00:02:35,169 --> 00:02:37,120 S1: So. I think there is a bit to unpack there 54 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:41,020 S1: in terms of what it means for someone like that 55 00:02:41,020 --> 00:02:43,660 S1: to have won the Gold Logie. But before we kind 56 00:02:43,660 --> 00:02:47,170 S1: of get to that specific question, I think it's worth 57 00:02:47,169 --> 00:02:50,680 S1: discussing why exactly we and I say we as in 58 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,350 S1: the three of us, but also we as our listeners, 59 00:02:53,350 --> 00:02:58,030 S1: as Australians more generally should or do care about the 60 00:02:58,030 --> 00:03:01,630 S1: Logie Awards. And whenever the has come up and we 61 00:03:01,630 --> 00:03:04,510 S1: cover it, you always get people either on like social 62 00:03:04,510 --> 00:03:06,880 S1: media or in the comments section of our story saying 63 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:08,650 S1: no one cares about the Logies. This is like a 64 00:03:08,650 --> 00:03:11,620 S1: really dumb night. Australian TV celebs are completely up their 65 00:03:11,620 --> 00:03:15,370 S1: own arses. Who cares? Let me tell you, people do care. 66 00:03:15,370 --> 00:03:17,260 S1: And in fact, more people than I think even you 67 00:03:17,260 --> 00:03:20,169 S1: and I, Thomas, who do follow this stuff quite closely 68 00:03:20,169 --> 00:03:22,930 S1: and have always been a bit interested, even more than 69 00:03:22,930 --> 00:03:26,109 S1: we thought. Cared, cared. There was nearly a million people 70 00:03:26,110 --> 00:03:28,840 S1: who tuned in to the live free to air broadcast 71 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:31,780 S1: of this on Channel seven on Sunday night. And you 72 00:03:31,780 --> 00:03:35,260 S1: know we can't really disclose the exact numbers of the 73 00:03:35,260 --> 00:03:37,120 S1: people who are at our coverage because, you know, it's 74 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:41,200 S1: a closely guarded secret. And media, hundreds of thousands of people, 75 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:42,940 S1: most of whom I don't think would have watched the 76 00:03:42,940 --> 00:03:46,630 S1: Logie ceremony, read our coverage, both the live blog that 77 00:03:46,630 --> 00:03:49,930 S1: Thomas was reporting from and our wraps and reviews and 78 00:03:49,930 --> 00:03:55,930 S1: analysis following. So I think, you know, it's an award show. 79 00:03:56,140 --> 00:03:58,570 S1: We do care about award shows, whether it's the Oscars 80 00:03:58,570 --> 00:04:01,540 S1: or the Emmys or the Grammys or the Logies. No 81 00:04:01,540 --> 00:04:03,850 S1: one is pretending that it is perfect. And it is 82 00:04:03,850 --> 00:04:07,690 S1: like a amazing summation of Australian culture. But people do 83 00:04:07,690 --> 00:04:09,640 S1: watch and they're interested. And I think at the very 84 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:13,570 S1: least it does serve as a barometer on what people 85 00:04:13,570 --> 00:04:17,680 S1: in the industry and what Australians who watch television think 86 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:20,799 S1: about TV. That's kind of my $0.02. On why it's 87 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,230 S1: worth talking about. Thomas You've been going to the Logies 88 00:04:23,230 --> 00:04:25,300 S1: for like a decade, not to make you feel old, 89 00:04:25,300 --> 00:04:28,539 S1: but you are a a big TV head. Talk to 90 00:04:28,540 --> 00:04:31,090 S1: me about why you think the Logies matter. 91 00:04:31,510 --> 00:04:35,140 S2: Yeah, I think like you said, it's always been one 92 00:04:35,140 --> 00:04:38,200 S2: of those things that's like a really easy punchline because 93 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:42,039 S2: the Logies are very much imperfect and they're maybe tacky 94 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,099 S2: and they've always been hamstrung by very strange voting categories 95 00:04:45,100 --> 00:04:47,500 S2: where some are just like publicly voted and some are 96 00:04:47,500 --> 00:04:49,839 S2: industry voting. And it's like easy to paint it as 97 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:52,810 S2: a popularity contest, which it kind of is. And on 98 00:04:52,810 --> 00:04:55,000 S2: top of that, it's always just been viewed as a 99 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,260 S2: bit lame. And it's the joke that everyone wants to make. 100 00:04:58,270 --> 00:05:01,390 S2: That being said, I think it was really interesting and 101 00:05:01,390 --> 00:05:03,669 S2: maybe a good reminder like we had two years of 102 00:05:03,670 --> 00:05:08,040 S2: no Logies as a result of the pandemic in 2020 and. 21. 103 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:09,900 S2: And it was a case of be careful what you 104 00:05:09,900 --> 00:05:12,690 S2: wish for, like when when it was away, everyone missed it. 105 00:05:12,690 --> 00:05:15,839 S2: And you know, aside from the the actual night of 106 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,239 S2: the Logie Awards, which is probably where a lot of 107 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,550 S2: that like a lot of those jokes are aimed because 108 00:05:20,550 --> 00:05:24,720 S2: it can seem low rent. The reality is it's rewarding 109 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,659 S2: an entire industry that works really hard, and especially in 110 00:05:27,660 --> 00:05:30,840 S2: the most outstanding categories which are industry voted. You know, 111 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:33,120 S2: there's all these people that have spent a year working 112 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,000 S2: on their craft, and when we didn't have that for 113 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,160 S2: two years, that was a lot of people whose work 114 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,160 S2: was overlooked and didn't get a chance to be appreciated 115 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,910 S2: by an audience that often they wouldn't get access to. 116 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,400 S2: So I do think, you know, however short the lodges fall, 117 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,400 S2: they do matter. And we shouldn't be like listening to 118 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,200 S2: those comments, just like, Oh, the logs are outdated or 119 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,419 S2: the lodges are cancelled, the log is finished. We can 120 00:05:54,420 --> 00:05:56,640 S2: appreciate that they're not perfect, but we should be wanting 121 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:58,200 S2: to keep them and improve them. 122 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:00,510 S1: Yeah, and believe me, we will definitely be talking about 123 00:06:00,510 --> 00:06:02,880 S1: how they are not perfect. We're having this conversation because 124 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,190 S1: I think we have some significant issues with what happened 125 00:06:05,190 --> 00:06:08,190 S1: this year, but I think that's a really good summary. Mel, 126 00:06:08,190 --> 00:06:11,100 S1: you've been covering culture longer than I have in this country. 127 00:06:11,100 --> 00:06:13,110 S1: What's your kind of top line thoughts on this? 128 00:06:13,110 --> 00:06:15,450 S3: I agree with both of you that the lodges are 129 00:06:15,450 --> 00:06:19,890 S3: not a perfect award ceremony by any stretch of the imagination. 130 00:06:19,890 --> 00:06:22,589 S3: But I do wonder and worry that we might shoot 131 00:06:22,589 --> 00:06:25,140 S3: ourselves in the foot when we make fun of things 132 00:06:25,140 --> 00:06:29,279 S3: like the lodges and actors and Aria awards, because these 133 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:31,440 S3: are our awards for our and I see this in 134 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:35,160 S3: quotations national culture. And I think by making fun of 135 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,279 S3: those awards ceremonies, in some ways it's a kind of 136 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:42,360 S3: reflection of cultural cringe and that Australian art and creativity 137 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,539 S3: aren't worth celebrating. And obviously the flow on effect of 138 00:06:45,570 --> 00:06:48,690 S3: that is less of a place in Australian society for 139 00:06:48,690 --> 00:06:51,330 S3: the culture that we all love and less of a 140 00:06:51,330 --> 00:06:53,640 S3: promotion of the culture we love. Because why would we 141 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:56,580 S3: invest in Australian content if we're all making fun of 142 00:06:56,580 --> 00:07:00,780 S3: the award ceremonies promoting Australian content? So while I agree 143 00:07:00,779 --> 00:07:03,300 S3: like it isn't, you know, made fun of the actors too, 144 00:07:03,300 --> 00:07:05,850 S3: because there's always one Australian show that wins every single 145 00:07:05,850 --> 00:07:08,580 S3: award and the Arias and, and they have. 146 00:07:08,580 --> 00:07:10,170 S1: The worst name for an awards. 147 00:07:10,570 --> 00:07:13,080 S3: It totally but when I think about it I do 148 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,110 S3: I am concerned about the kind of flow on effects 149 00:07:16,110 --> 00:07:19,530 S3: of talking down our output as a country. And I think. 150 00:07:19,530 --> 00:07:21,660 S2: You're adding to all that award shows. By nature, it's 151 00:07:21,660 --> 00:07:23,880 S2: way more fun to make fun of an award show 152 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:25,410 S2: that is to be like, What a great awards night. 153 00:07:25,410 --> 00:07:27,600 S2: Like the nature of the type of event they are 154 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,030 S2: really lends themselves to being picked apart. Yeah. 155 00:07:30,030 --> 00:07:32,010 S1: And I think as kind of critics or as people 156 00:07:32,010 --> 00:07:35,070 S1: who write about and interrogate culture in this country, it 157 00:07:35,070 --> 00:07:37,830 S1: also makes sense to write about and interrogate the the 158 00:07:37,830 --> 00:07:41,580 S1: kind of ceremonies and structures that reward what is good culture, 159 00:07:41,580 --> 00:07:44,670 S1: because when things win lodges, that sends incentives to the 160 00:07:44,670 --> 00:07:47,700 S1: industry to make more. When stuff doesn't win Logies, that 161 00:07:47,700 --> 00:07:50,220 S1: suggests that it's not worthy enough. So whether you watch 162 00:07:50,220 --> 00:07:53,040 S1: it or don't watch it, whether you think it matters 163 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,410 S1: or think it doesn't matter, it does impact what you 164 00:07:55,410 --> 00:07:58,170 S1: see on your screen and what kind of television gets made. 165 00:07:58,170 --> 00:08:00,510 S1: So I think I think it's probably enough of us 166 00:08:00,510 --> 00:08:03,989 S1: justifying why we are talking about this event. Thomas, you 167 00:08:03,990 --> 00:08:07,650 S1: mentioned this briefly, but because I think it's important to 168 00:08:07,650 --> 00:08:10,470 S1: the conversation around who wins. Do you mind running us 169 00:08:10,470 --> 00:08:13,560 S1: through like who actually determines these things? How do the 170 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:15,180 S1: Logie Awards get decided? 171 00:08:15,330 --> 00:08:17,820 S2: Yeah, so there are two different categories there's most popular 172 00:08:17,820 --> 00:08:22,020 S2: and most outstanding. So most popular is public voted and 173 00:08:22,020 --> 00:08:24,870 S2: that's done like via the internet using an online form 174 00:08:24,870 --> 00:08:27,090 S2: or via SMS. That change, I think came out about 175 00:08:27,090 --> 00:08:31,560 S2: in 2011, which seems remarkably late. But you know, yeah, 176 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,140 S2: so that's ten categories and that's like most popular new talent, 177 00:08:34,140 --> 00:08:37,440 S2: most popular drama, most popular reality, and of course ultimately 178 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:39,960 S2: the Gold Logie for the most popular personality on TV. 179 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,569 S2: And then the second category is most outstanding, and that's 180 00:08:42,570 --> 00:08:44,760 S2: the industry voted. And a lot of the actual categories 181 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:48,059 S2: are mirrored. So most popular reality show versus most outstanding 182 00:08:48,059 --> 00:08:50,760 S2: reality show. But these ones are industry voted. They often 183 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,790 S2: are seen as perhaps the more prestigious because it's coming 184 00:08:53,790 --> 00:08:56,610 S2: from your peers and they are judged by a secret 185 00:08:56,610 --> 00:08:59,700 S2: 100 they refer to them as. And that's a industry 186 00:08:59,700 --> 00:09:04,290 S2: body of, you know, directors, critics, producers, 100 people from 187 00:09:04,290 --> 00:09:05,940 S2: within the industry that vote on those awards. 188 00:09:06,030 --> 00:09:08,340 S1: And that is also a new thing. Like previously, I 189 00:09:08,340 --> 00:09:10,770 S1: think there was like a a wider group of people 190 00:09:10,770 --> 00:09:12,840 S1: that kind of subbed in for different sorts of things 191 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,270 S1: and was journalists and producers and whatever. This one seems 192 00:09:15,270 --> 00:09:17,970 S1: to be a little bit more modelled on like how 193 00:09:17,970 --> 00:09:21,090 S1: the Emmys and the Oscars kind of work with a 194 00:09:21,090 --> 00:09:26,040 S1: dedicated academy almost. But you still have that popular category 195 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:29,430 S1: that supplements it and gets people voting. And this is 196 00:09:29,429 --> 00:09:30,960 S1: why you see in the lead up to the Logies, 197 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,210 S1: like if you watch free to air television, there'll be 198 00:09:33,210 --> 00:09:36,540 S1: appeals coming up on the screen saying please vote for 199 00:09:36,540 --> 00:09:39,000 S1: like this show. Please vote for your favorite show to 200 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,150 S1: the way to I guess, drum up support and engage 201 00:09:42,270 --> 00:09:47,910 S1: the punter in recent years before we get to Sunday night. 202 00:09:48,179 --> 00:09:51,600 S1: Have there been any particular Logie moments that you think 203 00:09:51,630 --> 00:09:55,050 S1: are worth reflecting on as an example of like why 204 00:09:55,050 --> 00:09:58,320 S1: these awards have shifted the needle in terms of what 205 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,350 S1: we talk about and what we consider interesting in Australian TV? 206 00:10:01,350 --> 00:10:04,860 S1: Like to be honest, the most standout thing for me 207 00:10:04,860 --> 00:10:07,680 S1: is Tom Gleeson probably taking the piss. Out of the 208 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:08,370 S1: whole thing. 209 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:13,260 S6: Turns out I'm just really good at manipulating the media 210 00:10:13,260 --> 00:10:16,920 S6: to get people to do things for me. Which, if 211 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:21,060 S6: you think about it, it's why we're all here. So 212 00:10:21,059 --> 00:10:22,770 S6: maybe I do deserve this award. 213 00:10:24,450 --> 00:10:27,420 S1: And gaming the award for Gold Logie, which is like 214 00:10:27,420 --> 00:10:30,660 S1: the most prestigious award for the most popular presenter on 215 00:10:30,660 --> 00:10:33,690 S1: Australian television. Thomas, do you mind sort of like reminding 216 00:10:33,690 --> 00:10:35,260 S1: us what exactly happened there? 217 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:40,980 S2: Yeah. So Tom Gleeson essentially basically looked to prove like 218 00:10:40,980 --> 00:10:44,550 S2: tongue firmly planted in cheek that the Logies, at least 219 00:10:44,550 --> 00:10:46,320 S2: that part of the Logies, the Gold Logie, were a 220 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:49,829 S2: bit ridiculous in that you could just take advantage of, 221 00:10:50,010 --> 00:10:51,840 S2: you could convince the public to do something and it 222 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:53,820 S2: wouldn't reflect the most popular person on TV. It would 223 00:10:53,820 --> 00:10:56,790 S2: just reflect whoever could galvanise the most people to vote. 224 00:10:56,790 --> 00:11:00,179 S2: So in 2018, he ran a very high profile campaign 225 00:11:00,179 --> 00:11:03,300 S2: to get Grant Denyer to win the Gold Logie. Now, Grant, 226 00:11:03,750 --> 00:11:06,300 S2: you know, he's a great game show host. Was he 227 00:11:06,300 --> 00:11:10,380 S2: arguably sensibly the most popular personality on Australian TV? Probably not. 228 00:11:10,380 --> 00:11:14,160 S2: But Tom Gleeson, who is very popular and host of 229 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:16,770 S2: a very popular ABC quiz show, ran that campaign. And 230 00:11:16,770 --> 00:11:20,160 S2: lo and behold, Grant Daniel wins the Gold League in 2018. 231 00:11:22,980 --> 00:11:26,910 S7: Tom Gleeson, where are you? Yeah, you're over there. Yeah. 232 00:11:26,910 --> 00:11:35,810 S7: Thanks for that hard chat, mate. I appreciate it. Sometimes 233 00:11:35,809 --> 00:11:38,210 S7: if you need to get some things done in this country, 234 00:11:38,210 --> 00:11:41,990 S7: you need a angry redhead. And Pauline Hanson wasn't available, 235 00:11:41,990 --> 00:11:43,820 S7: so I had you, mate. Thank you so much. 236 00:11:46,340 --> 00:11:49,040 S2: The following year, Gleason doubles down and runs his own 237 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,700 S2: campaign for gold, leveraging his own already established popularity. 238 00:11:52,820 --> 00:11:55,130 S7: How does it feel to be twice as tall as me, 239 00:11:55,340 --> 00:12:00,319 S7: but only half successful? Depends how you define success. Winning 240 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:01,160 S7: a Gold Logie. 241 00:12:01,730 --> 00:12:04,609 S6: You only won it as a joke. When I win it, 242 00:12:04,610 --> 00:12:07,189 S6: it'll be for having a show that's actually popular and 243 00:12:07,220 --> 00:12:07,730 S6: on air. 244 00:12:07,910 --> 00:12:10,640 S7: You hijacked my campaign, and now everyone thinks I won 245 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:13,370 S7: a Gold Logie because you hijacked it. That's not a question. 246 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:14,900 S7: It just shits me. 247 00:12:16,250 --> 00:12:19,340 S2: And again, he wins the Gold Logie. And you know, 248 00:12:19,340 --> 00:12:22,850 S2: I remember I was working, I was freelancing actually for 249 00:12:22,850 --> 00:12:24,710 S2: TV Week, which is the magazine that kind of is 250 00:12:24,710 --> 00:12:26,839 S2: the name partner of the Logies. And I was in 251 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:30,350 S2: their media room when he won and it was very 252 00:12:30,350 --> 00:12:34,160 S2: tense vibes because they didn't know how to handle him. 253 00:12:34,309 --> 00:12:36,380 S1: And his speech was kind of taking the piss out. 254 00:12:36,380 --> 00:12:39,590 S1: He's like, I'm, I'm treating this industry with the respect 255 00:12:39,590 --> 00:12:42,110 S1: it deserves. Basically, he's like, It's a joke. I'm a joke. 256 00:12:42,110 --> 00:12:43,040 S1: You're all a joke. 257 00:12:45,020 --> 00:12:46,910 S6: I can tell you this. I'm not the most popular 258 00:12:46,910 --> 00:12:49,969 S6: person on Australian television. I know I'm not. It's just 259 00:12:49,970 --> 00:12:53,710 S6: basic stats. You know, if this went to the most 260 00:12:53,710 --> 00:12:56,559 S6: popular personality on Australian TV, I'd go to someone from 261 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,710 S6: Married at First Sight or the a rugby league player 262 00:12:59,710 --> 00:13:02,680 S6: in the State of Origin. I mean, that's what should happen. 263 00:13:03,190 --> 00:13:05,590 S6: But it doesn't for some reason. You've got to campaign 264 00:13:05,590 --> 00:13:08,580 S6: for it. But I can tell you this, I do 265 00:13:08,580 --> 00:13:15,500 S6: host the highest rating game show in Australia. So somewhere 266 00:13:15,500 --> 00:13:19,220 S6: in the joke, people forgot that this is mine. 267 00:13:20,630 --> 00:13:22,640 S2: That was a very quite a memorable speech. And he 268 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,340 S2: has a good point. But they, you know, were like, oh, 269 00:13:25,340 --> 00:13:28,070 S2: but this is our big thing. And he highlighted something 270 00:13:28,070 --> 00:13:31,370 S2: that is very true. The Gold Logie has been like 271 00:13:31,370 --> 00:13:33,560 S2: steeped in prestige and we love to see these images 272 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:35,810 S2: of Bert and Graham Kennedy and the golden era of 273 00:13:35,809 --> 00:13:38,510 S2: Australian TV and but that's not the reality anymore. And 274 00:13:38,510 --> 00:13:41,960 S2: having a most popular personality category that has both actors 275 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,410 S2: and presenters and it's so confusing and probably really needs 276 00:13:45,410 --> 00:13:47,059 S2: to have a conversation about the place of it, which 277 00:13:47,059 --> 00:13:49,520 S2: we definitely will following this year's win. But the place 278 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:52,520 S2: of it in a cultural landscape of 2023. And that's 279 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:53,870 S2: kind of what Gleeson highlighted. 280 00:13:53,870 --> 00:13:55,400 S3: In saying that there's also been a few people who 281 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:57,320 S3: have used the kind of Gold Logie speech as quite 282 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:01,220 S3: a momentous occasion. I think when Waleed Ali won in 2016, 283 00:14:01,220 --> 00:14:04,790 S3: he gave quite a rousing speech about racism in the industry. 284 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:10,880 S8: Me being here right now really matters to them and 285 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:13,550 S8: it matters to them for a particular reason. And that 286 00:14:13,550 --> 00:14:18,439 S8: reason was brought home shuddering early not so long ago, actually, 287 00:14:18,710 --> 00:14:21,260 S8: when someone who was in this room and I'm not 288 00:14:21,260 --> 00:14:25,640 S8: going to use their the name that they use in 289 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:30,080 S8: the industry came up to me introduce themselves and said 290 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:35,600 S8: to me, I really hope you win. My name is Mustafa. 291 00:14:37,890 --> 00:14:39,360 S8: But I can't use that name because I won't get 292 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:45,750 S8: a job. He's here tonight. And it matters to people 293 00:14:45,750 --> 00:14:47,070 S8: like that that I'm here. 294 00:14:47,070 --> 00:14:49,230 S3: And so you kind of see the two very different 295 00:14:49,230 --> 00:14:50,850 S3: responses to the award. 296 00:14:50,940 --> 00:14:53,370 S2: It's rare in Australian culture to have a big platform 297 00:14:53,370 --> 00:14:55,380 S2: like that because we don't have many big awards nights 298 00:14:55,380 --> 00:14:58,590 S2: and that that speech often does become this like moment, 299 00:14:58,590 --> 00:15:01,070 S2: you know, Carrie bit more when she won famously launched 300 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,109 S2: her like beanies for brain cancer after her first husband 301 00:15:04,110 --> 00:15:07,380 S2: passed away. We had Samuel Johnson, quite an emotional win 302 00:15:07,380 --> 00:15:09,690 S2: for playing Molly. And then he was kind of like 303 00:15:09,690 --> 00:15:12,900 S2: Molly stormed the stage and that created it. A strange 304 00:15:12,900 --> 00:15:14,700 S2: moment because Molly wasn't in the best form. 305 00:15:15,090 --> 00:15:18,150 S3: So Taylor Swift situation wasn't finished. 306 00:15:18,420 --> 00:15:20,880 S2: So it is this kind of window, I guess, for 307 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,430 S2: a big moment. And it often delivers something to talk 308 00:15:23,430 --> 00:15:23,940 S2: about anyway. 309 00:15:23,940 --> 00:15:26,340 S3: And also sometimes there are the big moments which actually 310 00:15:26,340 --> 00:15:29,910 S3: after the Logies, one of my favourite Logies adjacent moment 311 00:15:29,910 --> 00:15:34,650 S3: is our friend of the family, Karl Stefanovic. Post Logies 312 00:15:34,650 --> 00:15:36,650 S3: are front of the podcast network. 313 00:15:36,750 --> 00:15:37,260 S1: Absolutely. 314 00:15:37,290 --> 00:15:40,140 S3: Post Logies moment I think quite a few years ago. 315 00:15:40,140 --> 00:15:43,080 S3: Obviously a bit a whisper where on the Today show. 316 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:43,350 S3: A lot of. 317 00:15:43,350 --> 00:15:44,940 S9: Fun. Oh. 318 00:15:45,690 --> 00:15:47,630 S4: It was a great night. It was a fantastic night. 319 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:51,480 S10: So Lisa has not slept and neither has Karl. I'm 320 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:53,340 S10: talking about myself in the third person. 321 00:15:53,340 --> 00:15:54,210 S4: Yeah. When did that. 322 00:15:54,210 --> 00:15:56,790 S10: Start? I'm not sure. Let us have a quick look 323 00:15:56,790 --> 00:15:57,420 S10: at the weather now. 324 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,330 S2: And if you go back to 2013, there's a great 325 00:16:00,330 --> 00:16:02,700 S2: post Logies moment, which is a picture of me wearing 326 00:16:02,700 --> 00:16:05,940 S2: a pink tie and with Flo Ryder. So I mean 327 00:16:05,940 --> 00:16:06,780 S2: that really kind of. 328 00:16:06,810 --> 00:16:07,560 S3: That sums it. 329 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:09,420 S2: Up. That really sums up the logos, isn't it? 330 00:16:09,540 --> 00:16:12,270 S3: Quick question. We have discussed before, Tom Cruise, your photo 331 00:16:12,270 --> 00:16:14,760 S3: with Tom Cruise. Not not great. You weren't happy. Did 332 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,220 S3: you get any photos on the red carpet this time? 333 00:16:17,340 --> 00:16:20,610 S2: No, to be honest, it wasn't really the photo vibe. 334 00:16:21,420 --> 00:16:23,880 S2: It was it was very it was quite warm in 335 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:27,750 S2: Sydney on Sunday and the carpet was like quite tight 336 00:16:27,750 --> 00:16:30,090 S2: and everyone was very hot and sweaty, so it wasn't. Yeah, 337 00:16:30,090 --> 00:16:30,810 S2: no pictures. 338 00:16:31,170 --> 00:16:33,000 S1: I've got to say that you did a great job 339 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,250 S1: on the red carpet. If you're interested in seeing Thomas 340 00:16:35,250 --> 00:16:39,300 S1: interview some great celebs. He was there with our colleague 341 00:16:39,300 --> 00:16:42,330 S1: Nicole from our social media team. You can check him 342 00:16:42,330 --> 00:16:44,550 S1: out on our TikTok at the Sydney Morning Herald and 343 00:16:44,550 --> 00:16:46,530 S1: the age that was really red in a really bad 344 00:16:46,530 --> 00:16:50,520 S1: voice than than it is, actually. It was actually quite 345 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:52,620 S1: fun to watch you on the carpet. Okay. Let's talk 346 00:16:52,620 --> 00:16:55,890 S1: about some of the good bits of Sunday before we 347 00:16:55,890 --> 00:16:59,820 S1: start our dissection of where things started to go wrong. 348 00:16:59,820 --> 00:17:02,520 S1: One of the things I was most looking forward to 349 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,190 S1: was Sam Pang as the host when he was announced. 350 00:17:05,190 --> 00:17:07,680 S1: I've always really enjoyed Sam Pang. I think he's like 351 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,100 S1: quite fresh and different to most of the other kind 352 00:17:11,100 --> 00:17:13,920 S1: of funny presenters on TV and even on shows like 353 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,170 S1: The Front Bar that he's on with Mike Molloy and 354 00:17:16,170 --> 00:17:19,170 S1: whoever else he's, he just feels different, like he's in 355 00:17:19,170 --> 00:17:22,140 S1: a kind of different league and he was really funny. 356 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:25,620 S11: I'd also like to acknowledge a win for diversity tonight. 357 00:17:25,950 --> 00:17:28,290 S11: I'm the first host in the history of the Logies 358 00:17:28,470 --> 00:17:31,050 S11: to be half and half, half Channel seven and half 359 00:17:31,050 --> 00:17:35,869 S11: Channel ten. Let's be honest, it's just great to have 360 00:17:35,869 --> 00:17:42,139 S11: an Asian on Channel seven. Who isn't trying to smuggle 361 00:17:42,140 --> 00:17:43,700 S11: live birds through border security. 362 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,070 S1: I think he did the right balance of being respectful, 363 00:17:49,070 --> 00:17:53,389 S1: but also taking the piss, being self-aware, making jokes about himself, 364 00:17:53,390 --> 00:17:56,300 S1: about the network that was airing at Channel seven. Some 365 00:17:56,300 --> 00:17:58,010 S1: of his jokes didn't quite work, and then he would 366 00:17:58,010 --> 00:18:01,090 S1: come back and find a way to make them land. 367 00:18:01,100 --> 00:18:02,480 S1: I enjoyed them. 368 00:18:02,869 --> 00:18:04,939 S3: Yeah, I agree. If we had to give the drop, 369 00:18:04,940 --> 00:18:07,820 S3: Loki Sam is definitely getting it. I loved him on 370 00:18:07,820 --> 00:18:10,480 S3: Eurovision when he when he used to commentate that I 371 00:18:10,490 --> 00:18:12,380 S3: thought he was perfect for the Logies. Give me more. 372 00:18:12,380 --> 00:18:14,479 S2: Sam Pang Yeah, I would be. I really hope it 373 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:16,730 S2: comes back next year. I wonder what he'll do. He 374 00:18:16,730 --> 00:18:19,190 S2: was the first solo host in like 11 years since 375 00:18:19,190 --> 00:18:22,460 S2: Shane Born, and everyone I think was probably the most pre. 376 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,369 S2: His excitement was to do with Sam Pang, which I 377 00:18:25,369 --> 00:18:27,919 S2: think speaks volumes again. But he was amazing. Like his 378 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,199 S2: jokes were kind of note perfect. They weren't like there 379 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,149 S2: were times I'm like, he could probably go harder, but 380 00:18:32,150 --> 00:18:34,070 S2: no one was safe. I loved when he like, kind 381 00:18:34,070 --> 00:18:35,690 S2: of took the piss out of Hamish explaining what a 382 00:18:35,690 --> 00:18:37,100 S2: mortgage is to Hamish Blake. 383 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:40,790 S11: Thank you. Hi. I really appreciate it. Some of us 384 00:18:40,790 --> 00:18:46,590 S11: have a mortgage. By the way, a mortgage is when 385 00:18:46,590 --> 00:18:47,700 S11: the bank loans out. Don't worry. 386 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:51,669 S2: There are a couple of Ben Roberts-Smith jokes, which I 387 00:18:51,670 --> 00:18:53,680 S2: appreciated because like he was on Channel seven, I thought 388 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:55,500 S2: that was brave and really sussed. 389 00:18:55,510 --> 00:18:57,160 S3: Amy Shark Yeah, he died. 390 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,710 S2: He SAS Amy Shark and he, you know, he very 391 00:18:59,710 --> 00:19:01,390 S2: much took the piss out of himself. So I think 392 00:19:01,390 --> 00:19:04,720 S2: in terms of the Sam Pang experience, people didn't really 393 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:05,890 S2: have a bad word to say. 394 00:19:06,250 --> 00:19:08,530 S1: The other thing that I did enjoy about these awards, 395 00:19:08,530 --> 00:19:13,570 S1: like the Logies, have rightly been very criticised for being 396 00:19:13,570 --> 00:19:16,750 S1: an extremely like non diverse affair and maybe that's an 397 00:19:16,750 --> 00:19:18,970 S1: unfair thing to pin on the locals because they just 398 00:19:18,970 --> 00:19:22,840 S1: reflecting what is happening in Australian TV culture more generally. 399 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,690 S1: But I feel like this year in particular it felt 400 00:19:25,690 --> 00:19:29,920 S1: like the Logies for like brief glimpse for a little 401 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:32,890 S1: bit more reflective of the rest of the country, like 402 00:19:32,890 --> 00:19:36,909 S1: having Tony Armstrong, who nominated again and then winning the Logie. 403 00:19:36,910 --> 00:19:39,760 S1: Michael Smith This is like a bittersweet one, right? Like 404 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:43,870 S1: Michael Smith from Mystery Road being nominated for the Gold 405 00:19:43,869 --> 00:19:48,010 S1: was really exciting, but him being the first ever indigenous 406 00:19:48,010 --> 00:19:52,240 S1: person in the history of these awards nominated is like 407 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:56,620 S1: also pretty shameful. And Waleed still being the only non 408 00:19:56,619 --> 00:19:58,899 S1: like white person ever to win the Logie is a 409 00:19:58,900 --> 00:20:01,300 S1: bit disappointing, but it did feel exciting. And seeing the 410 00:20:01,300 --> 00:20:04,300 S1: Heartbreak High cast Asha Madden they're performing as well. Like 411 00:20:04,300 --> 00:20:07,300 S1: it felt like maybe we're finally getting a little bit 412 00:20:07,300 --> 00:20:11,200 S1: closer to an industry that looks like and sounds like 413 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,899 S1: the rest of the country in terms of specific wins 414 00:20:13,900 --> 00:20:17,199 S1: that I enjoyed. I thought Colin from accounts emerge as 415 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,180 S1: one of the key winners of the night and really 416 00:20:19,180 --> 00:20:23,199 S1: deservedly so, like winning most outstanding comedy and actor and 417 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:27,490 S1: actress for Patrick Bramwell and Harriet Dyer, who are also 418 00:20:27,970 --> 00:20:31,720 S1: a couple and also co-wrote and produced that show together. 419 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,930 S1: They seem like really good people. And Thomas, you spoke 420 00:20:34,930 --> 00:20:36,399 S1: to them on the red carpet and you got a 421 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,680 S1: little bit of Goss on how they were able to 422 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:40,000 S1: attend the event. 423 00:20:40,030 --> 00:20:42,340 S2: Yeah, well, they're both kind of they live and work 424 00:20:42,340 --> 00:20:45,790 S2: in LA and they both have appeared in numerous American 425 00:20:45,790 --> 00:20:49,359 S2: TV programs. And yeah, they had to get like a 426 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:53,560 S2: special dispensation from SAG to attend. They got permission. There's 427 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,080 S2: a lot of chat right now about kind of waivers 428 00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:00,010 S2: and I guess increasingly more visible people getting what seems 429 00:21:00,010 --> 00:21:02,470 S2: like getting around the strike rules. But that wasn't the 430 00:21:02,470 --> 00:21:03,879 S2: case for them. But they did have to get permission, 431 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:05,950 S2: which I thought was interesting. And and then they both 432 00:21:05,950 --> 00:21:08,260 S2: spoke to me about, you know, like Patrick is currently 433 00:21:08,260 --> 00:21:11,409 S2: writing a series for an American streamer, but he's pens 434 00:21:11,410 --> 00:21:13,570 S2: down on that. So yeah, I think they were very 435 00:21:13,570 --> 00:21:15,340 S2: excited to be able to come once they knew they 436 00:21:15,340 --> 00:21:17,950 S2: were in the clear and they stole the show. It's funny, 437 00:21:17,950 --> 00:21:20,740 S2: every year there's often like something heartwarming that's like becomes 438 00:21:20,740 --> 00:21:23,690 S2: the the nice storyline. And it was very much Patrick Bramwell. 439 00:21:23,740 --> 00:21:25,720 S2: And Harriet died this year. They were hilarious on stage. 440 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,240 S2: They seem to be on camera every like five minutes. 441 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,130 S2: But yeah, all of their acceptance speeches were great. And 442 00:21:30,130 --> 00:21:32,470 S2: that show, I think has been really embraced that binge show. 443 00:21:32,470 --> 00:21:33,879 S2: So yeah, it was it was a worthy winner. 444 00:21:33,970 --> 00:21:36,580 S3: It's such a fantastic show and well worth a watch. 445 00:21:36,580 --> 00:21:38,560 S3: People who haven't seen it yet. Guys, what did you 446 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,590 S3: think about the difference between the popular vote and the 447 00:21:41,590 --> 00:21:44,170 S3: outstanding vote? Because as we were just saying, Colin from 448 00:21:44,170 --> 00:21:47,439 S3: Accounts really crushed the outstanding vote but didn't seem to 449 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:48,610 S3: get the popular vote. 450 00:21:48,730 --> 00:21:50,290 S2: Well, yes, this is the thing, isn't it? Like, you know, 451 00:21:50,290 --> 00:21:52,420 S2: have you been paying attention, has won that most popular 452 00:21:52,420 --> 00:21:56,619 S2: comedy or entertainment program for years running and then it 453 00:21:56,619 --> 00:21:59,170 S2: was also nominated for Most outstanding as it always is, 454 00:21:59,170 --> 00:22:01,030 S2: but it never wins that like and there is this 455 00:22:01,030 --> 00:22:03,280 S2: funny disconnect. I thought the weirdest one, I was so 456 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,490 S2: sure Heartbreak High was going to win most popular drama, 457 00:22:06,490 --> 00:22:08,460 S2: and it obviously went to home in a way. And 458 00:22:08,470 --> 00:22:10,570 S2: this is, I think, where people who don't really engage 459 00:22:10,570 --> 00:22:12,970 S2: the lodges start to get disconnected because they're like home 460 00:22:12,970 --> 00:22:13,389 S2: and away. 461 00:22:13,390 --> 00:22:16,210 S1: Like what? Yeah, I think there's a real skew to 462 00:22:16,210 --> 00:22:19,180 S1: free to air shows in particular in the popular category 463 00:22:19,180 --> 00:22:23,350 S1: because that's where you mobilize voters, right? Like Channel seven, 464 00:22:23,350 --> 00:22:25,510 S1: who was the broadcast partner this year has a big 465 00:22:25,510 --> 00:22:27,610 S1: incentive to get all of its shows to win. So 466 00:22:27,609 --> 00:22:30,280 S1: they push. You watch any Channel seven show, you watch 467 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,580 S1: the John Farnham, you know, the Voice documentary, and they're 468 00:22:33,580 --> 00:22:35,350 S1: running a strap down the bottom saying, make sure to 469 00:22:35,350 --> 00:22:37,840 S1: vote for your favorite Channel seven stars, even in the 470 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:39,580 S1: Channel seven News in the lead up to the Logies, 471 00:22:39,580 --> 00:22:40,869 S1: they were telling you to go and vote for your 472 00:22:40,869 --> 00:22:43,210 S1: favorite Channel seven star. And that's just not something that 473 00:22:43,210 --> 00:22:45,550 S1: Netflix can mobilize. Like you're never going to going to 474 00:22:45,550 --> 00:22:48,190 S1: go on Netflix and on the homepage. It'll be like, 475 00:22:48,190 --> 00:22:51,010 S1: Go vote for your favorite show on the log. So 476 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,940 S1: I think that divergence between popular and outstanding is becoming 477 00:22:54,940 --> 00:22:59,140 S1: increasingly like clear and quite sharp as we get all 478 00:22:59,140 --> 00:23:03,280 S1: these pretty interesting and funny and poignant dramas and comedies 479 00:23:03,609 --> 00:23:06,879 S1: that are on streaming platforms, but you still end up 480 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:08,350 S1: with like Home and Away, and then you end up 481 00:23:08,350 --> 00:23:11,709 S1: with what I think is one of the most frustrating 482 00:23:11,710 --> 00:23:15,040 S1: and disappointing outcomes is like Amy Shark winning Best New 483 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:21,190 S1: Talent against Two Heartbreak High Stars for a judging kind 484 00:23:21,190 --> 00:23:25,000 S1: of role on Australian Idol, which is a show that 485 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,390 S1: very few people watch this year that's just not reflective 486 00:23:28,390 --> 00:23:29,980 S1: of what is going on in terms of what people 487 00:23:29,980 --> 00:23:32,260 S1: are watching. Did you guys feel similarly about that? 488 00:23:32,260 --> 00:23:34,240 S3: I do. And I think as well as obviously there's 489 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,490 S3: a difference in the streaming platforms and their capacity to 490 00:23:36,490 --> 00:23:40,870 S3: mobilize voters, and that is inherently tied to a generational difference. 491 00:23:40,869 --> 00:23:43,659 S3: And I think the logic is skewing to a much 492 00:23:43,660 --> 00:23:46,390 S3: older audience. The TV ratings would be interesting to see. 493 00:23:46,390 --> 00:23:49,770 S3: The breakdown of the age categories is. Skewing towards a 494 00:23:49,770 --> 00:23:52,680 S3: much older audience, which is why shows with much older 495 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,350 S3: audiences like Home and Away and have you been paying 496 00:23:55,350 --> 00:23:59,340 S3: attention are winning. Whereas streaming platforms and shows skewing towards 497 00:23:59,340 --> 00:24:01,890 S3: younger people who are not engaged in the Logies probably 498 00:24:01,890 --> 00:24:04,230 S3: don't even know it's on don't even know to vote 499 00:24:04,230 --> 00:24:05,520 S3: or why voting would matter. 500 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,709 S2: But it's so funny because if you looked at the like, 501 00:24:07,710 --> 00:24:10,680 S2: you know, the viewing hours for Heartbreak High on Netflix 502 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,780 S2: around the world, like if Netflix did two days of 503 00:24:12,780 --> 00:24:15,869 S2: running a banner on the Netflix like splash screen that 504 00:24:15,869 --> 00:24:18,270 S2: was like vote for your favourite heartbreak High Star. They 505 00:24:18,270 --> 00:24:20,730 S2: would fucking crush it. It would be a no contest 506 00:24:20,730 --> 00:24:23,490 S2: because like the viewing hours of how many people watch 507 00:24:23,490 --> 00:24:25,619 S2: Heartbreak High versus how many people still watch Home in 508 00:24:25,619 --> 00:24:27,120 S2: a way is like a no contest. 509 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,550 S1: It's a really interesting idea. I wonder whether they will 510 00:24:29,550 --> 00:24:31,649 S1: do something like this like we've seen in the States. 511 00:24:31,650 --> 00:24:35,010 S1: The streamers get on board running campaigns and funding events 512 00:24:35,010 --> 00:24:38,879 S1: for things like the Oscars and the Emmys. But I 513 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,609 S1: guess Australia is seen as a little bit too small fry, 514 00:24:41,609 --> 00:24:44,070 S1: but I wonder whether it would really help them be 515 00:24:44,070 --> 00:24:47,760 S1: seen as like a prestigious, significant platform if they could, 516 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:49,709 S1: you know, because when you go on Netflix and you 517 00:24:49,710 --> 00:24:52,050 S1: see a show, it will sometimes say like, this has 518 00:24:52,050 --> 00:24:54,270 S1: won this many Oscars. It's award winning, blah, blah, blah. 519 00:24:54,270 --> 00:24:57,090 S1: But they can only do that with international shows. They 520 00:24:57,090 --> 00:24:58,890 S1: can't do that with early innings in shows yet because 521 00:24:58,890 --> 00:25:02,250 S1: they haven't won the big awards for them. So it 522 00:25:02,250 --> 00:25:04,500 S1: may be something that they look into. That's an interesting 523 00:25:04,500 --> 00:25:05,160 S1: one to watch. 524 00:25:05,340 --> 00:25:07,409 S3: Yeah, And man, I love seeing the Heartbreak High kids 525 00:25:07,410 --> 00:25:09,990 S3: on the red carpet. I thought they were so fresh. 526 00:25:09,990 --> 00:25:12,960 S3: I know, because there were so many kind of familiar 527 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,230 S3: faces from the last kind of 50 years, which. 528 00:25:16,260 --> 00:25:19,050 S2: Obviously good to see you again for his 800th Logies. 529 00:25:19,109 --> 00:25:21,480 S2: Whereas whereas those guys are like firstly, they're all like 530 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,719 S2: really cool and like look amazing, like dressing best fits 531 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,300 S2: and everything and also like super excited to be there. 532 00:25:27,300 --> 00:25:29,150 S2: That all come as a group like it was the same. 533 00:25:29,170 --> 00:25:30,959 S2: Went to the actors last year and like the Heartbreak 534 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,360 S2: High cast stole the show and like they were just 535 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:35,760 S2: like the best vibe. Everyone was like getting around them. 536 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:37,290 S2: And it was the same thing this year at the Luigi's. 537 00:25:37,290 --> 00:25:39,330 S1: I think the other thing about the Heartbreak High Gang 538 00:25:39,330 --> 00:25:43,350 S1: is that they represent like the future of Australian television, 539 00:25:43,350 --> 00:25:46,109 S1: which is something that the Logies I think need to 540 00:25:46,109 --> 00:25:48,119 S1: get better at doing. I think you made this point, Thomas, 541 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,120 S1: on the night in the blog like there's too often 542 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,820 S1: these moments of the Logies, which are harking back to 543 00:25:53,820 --> 00:25:57,030 S1: television of 20, 30, 40 years ago, and it's sort 544 00:25:57,030 --> 00:25:59,879 S1: of just reminding all the executives who've been running the 545 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:02,430 S1: show for 50 years, ha ha ha, like this one's 546 00:26:02,430 --> 00:26:05,040 S1: for you. But what they need to do is get 547 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:09,870 S1: more younger people excited about this event, about Australian television 548 00:26:09,869 --> 00:26:13,380 S1: and more heartbreak. High kinds of people, more coming from 549 00:26:13,380 --> 00:26:16,109 S1: accounts type stuff like the ensemble cast of the 12, 550 00:26:16,109 --> 00:26:18,419 S1: which includes actors like Sam Neil, but a lot of 551 00:26:18,420 --> 00:26:20,939 S1: younger actors as well. Like that to me should be 552 00:26:20,940 --> 00:26:23,129 S1: heroes a bit more to get us really excited about 553 00:26:23,130 --> 00:26:24,180 S1: Australian stories. 554 00:26:24,180 --> 00:26:27,930 S2: Yeah, I think like every year there's always like and like, 555 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,780 S2: you know, no disrespect, but like there's always kind of 556 00:26:30,780 --> 00:26:33,660 S2: like the allusions to like Bird and Graham in that year. 557 00:26:33,660 --> 00:26:35,340 S2: And that was, that's a very important part of the legacy. 558 00:26:35,340 --> 00:26:36,960 S2: And it's not that we shouldn't be honouring that, but 559 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,179 S2: like I would make the argument that like it's really 560 00:26:39,180 --> 00:26:41,700 S2: been honoured and I think there is a we should 561 00:26:41,700 --> 00:26:44,040 S2: be starting to see a shift towards like, like why 562 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,350 S2: didn't the Heartbreak High cast like presenting an award? Like 563 00:26:46,350 --> 00:26:47,760 S2: how to me would have been a no brainer to 564 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,040 S2: like get the Bluey team to do an animation where 565 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,050 S2: Bluey presents an award? Like aside from the fact they're 566 00:26:52,050 --> 00:26:54,630 S2: two of our biggest cultural exports over the last year, 567 00:26:54,630 --> 00:26:57,750 S2: they're also like the things that new audiences care about. Like, 568 00:26:57,750 --> 00:26:59,610 S2: do we need to have a sketch about like Bert 569 00:26:59,609 --> 00:27:02,669 S2: and Patti Newton? Like, again, No, not that they're so important, 570 00:27:02,670 --> 00:27:04,619 S2: but like, if we're trying to safeguard the future and 571 00:27:04,619 --> 00:27:06,869 S2: improve this award, like these are the things they should be. 572 00:27:06,869 --> 00:27:09,090 S3: Doing, I guess the challenge for them is how do 573 00:27:09,090 --> 00:27:12,240 S3: they bring a new audience in without alienating their existing 574 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,159 S3: audience who only want to see the David Hughes of 575 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:15,389 S3: the world on screen? 576 00:27:16,850 --> 00:27:18,650 S1: Let's get to the big one. This is something that 577 00:27:18,650 --> 00:27:23,899 S1: I was thinking about in the days leading up to 578 00:27:23,900 --> 00:27:26,149 S1: the award. I think, Thomas, you can testify to the 579 00:27:26,150 --> 00:27:28,040 S1: fact that I had a had a feeling this was 580 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:28,970 S1: going to happen and I was sort of. 581 00:27:28,970 --> 00:27:31,669 S2: Prepared for I told you you were wrong. And lo 582 00:27:31,670 --> 00:27:32,810 S2: and behold, you were right. 583 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,989 S1: So maybe the best place to start, right? So the 584 00:27:35,990 --> 00:27:40,760 S1: Gold Logie is the most prestigious award handed out. It's 585 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,670 S1: had a funny history. Aside from the stories we mentioned 586 00:27:43,670 --> 00:27:46,550 S1: about Tom Gleason kind of, you know, having fun with it, 587 00:27:46,550 --> 00:27:48,710 S1: like Lisa McKeown won it for four years in a 588 00:27:48,710 --> 00:27:51,709 S1: row in the 90s. I think Rove McManus won it 589 00:27:51,710 --> 00:27:54,530 S1: three years in a row. So, you know, it's interesting. 590 00:27:54,530 --> 00:27:59,000 S1: It certainly is very well respected. And when people like 591 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,030 S1: Waleed and Kerry win and use that platform to give speeches, 592 00:28:02,030 --> 00:28:05,659 S1: it's seen as a really transcendent moment for Australian entertainment 593 00:28:05,660 --> 00:28:10,399 S1: industry culture. This year there were basically two favourites for it, 594 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,580 S1: I think. Hamish Blake from Lego Masters and Sonia Kruger 595 00:28:13,580 --> 00:28:17,960 S1: from assorted seven programmes. And according to the betting odds, 596 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:19,879 S1: Hamish was the favourite. You know, he's won it twice 597 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,220 S1: before he won it last year. He is, I think, 598 00:28:22,220 --> 00:28:26,060 S1: objectively more popular than almost anyone else in the race. 599 00:28:26,060 --> 00:28:28,280 S1: He's on more popular shows. He's one of the most 600 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:32,120 S1: beloved and nicest guys in Australian TV, but it also 601 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,840 S1: seemed like he was not running that seriously. He wasn't 602 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,680 S1: doing massive media appearances. Even when you tried to speak 603 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:41,210 S1: to him on the red carpet, Tom, it's like he 604 00:28:41,210 --> 00:28:43,400 S1: wasn't that keen to do it, which I thought was 605 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,610 S1: really telling because for the first year ever, voting for 606 00:28:46,610 --> 00:28:50,840 S1: the Gold Logie only was open the entire broadcast. So 607 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:52,520 S1: if you really wanted to win that award, you would 608 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,720 S1: use the red carpet as your opportunity to plug yourself. 609 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:58,760 S2: Also worth noting that for the first time ever, a 610 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,540 S2: Gold Logie nominee hosted the red carpet coverage for the 611 00:29:02,540 --> 00:29:04,490 S2: network that was broadcasting the Logies. 612 00:29:05,170 --> 00:29:07,510 S1: And that brings us to Sonia Kruger, who was very 613 00:29:07,510 --> 00:29:10,870 S1: present across everything. She was the person that the Channel 614 00:29:10,870 --> 00:29:13,830 S1: Seven News team was, was reminding viewers to to vote for. 615 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,600 S1: She hosted the red carpet coverage. A lot of Channel 616 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,170 S1: seven personalities like Dr. Chris Brown, the the handsome vet 617 00:29:20,170 --> 00:29:23,380 S1: who's jumped ship. Channel seven was doing really awkward statements 618 00:29:23,380 --> 00:29:26,050 S1: about why she should win. It seemed very clear that 619 00:29:26,050 --> 00:29:28,120 S1: Channel Seven was putting a lot of time and effort 620 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,180 S1: and resources into getting her the gold, and I started 621 00:29:31,180 --> 00:29:33,850 S1: to think that seemed likely to happen because of what 622 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,120 S1: Hamish was not really doing. And I started to feel 623 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,969 S1: like a little bit like queasy about it, to be 624 00:29:39,970 --> 00:29:44,410 S1: really honest. Sonia Kruger For people who don't know, has 625 00:29:44,950 --> 00:29:49,210 S1: like a not insignificant controversy section on a Wikipedia page. 626 00:29:49,210 --> 00:29:52,030 S1: But the thing that is the real standout, at least 627 00:29:52,030 --> 00:29:54,729 S1: for me, these comments she made in 2016 and we 628 00:29:54,730 --> 00:29:56,710 S1: should say the comments were made on the Today Show, 629 00:29:56,710 --> 00:30:00,100 S1: which is broadcast on nine and nine, owns our newspapers, 630 00:30:00,100 --> 00:30:01,660 S1: the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. 631 00:30:01,810 --> 00:30:04,810 S5: Personally, I think Andrew Bolt has a point here that 632 00:30:04,900 --> 00:30:08,190 S5: there is a correlation between the number of people who, 633 00:30:08,500 --> 00:30:10,990 S5: you know, are Muslim in a country and the number 634 00:30:10,990 --> 00:30:13,300 S5: of terrorist attacks. Now I have a lot of very 635 00:30:13,300 --> 00:30:15,489 S5: good friends who are Muslim, who are peace loving, who 636 00:30:15,490 --> 00:30:19,540 S5: are beautiful people, but there are fanatics. And does the 637 00:30:19,540 --> 00:30:22,719 S5: population and the correlation between those two things, is it 638 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,000 S5: having an impact? I mean, if you look at Japan, 639 00:30:25,150 --> 00:30:26,739 S5: Japan has a population of and. 640 00:30:26,740 --> 00:30:29,140 S1: She says that personally I would like to see it. 641 00:30:29,140 --> 00:30:32,770 S1: The immigration of Muslims stopped now for Australia. 642 00:30:33,070 --> 00:30:35,470 S4: Just to clarify, are you saying that you would like 643 00:30:35,470 --> 00:30:38,590 S4: our borders closed to Muslims at this point? Yes, I would. 644 00:30:38,590 --> 00:30:40,360 S5: I would because I think at this is. 645 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:40,900 S4: The Donald Trump. 646 00:30:40,900 --> 00:30:43,810 S5: I think we have something like 500,000 now in our 647 00:30:43,810 --> 00:30:46,960 S5: country and and well, perhaps it is. But for the 648 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,930 S5: safety of the citizens here, I think it's important. 649 00:30:50,380 --> 00:30:53,860 S1: And that was 2016. The context of that was Donald Trump, obviously, 650 00:30:53,860 --> 00:30:56,320 S1: you know, trying to do the same kind of thing. 651 00:30:56,470 --> 00:30:59,920 S1: Those comments were like, I don't want to say widely condemned, 652 00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:02,980 S1: but they were condemned by lots of people in Australia 653 00:31:02,980 --> 00:31:07,300 S1: and particularly high profile Muslim Australians as well. She was 654 00:31:07,300 --> 00:31:10,180 S1: taken to the New South Wales Civil and Administrative Tribunal 655 00:31:10,330 --> 00:31:13,870 S1: and in 2019 that tribunal found that she had vilified 656 00:31:13,870 --> 00:31:17,890 S1: Muslims over those comments. The tribunal said that while Kruger 657 00:31:17,890 --> 00:31:19,900 S1: had made it clear she did not think every Muslim 658 00:31:19,900 --> 00:31:23,080 S1: in Australia overseas was a fanatic. Taken in context, her 659 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,950 S1: comments were likely to encourage or incite feelings of hatred 660 00:31:26,950 --> 00:31:31,510 S1: towards or serious contempt for Australian Muslims as a whole 661 00:31:31,510 --> 00:31:35,739 S1: by linking them to terrorist attacks. Now that's that's like 662 00:31:35,740 --> 00:31:38,410 S1: not a small controversy. That's a pretty big, heavy thing 663 00:31:38,410 --> 00:31:40,900 S1: that is sort of stuck around. And Kruger has never 664 00:31:40,900 --> 00:31:45,550 S1: publicly walked those comments back or apologize for them. So 665 00:31:45,700 --> 00:31:51,340 S1: for someone like me, seeing her inch closer towards receiving 666 00:31:51,340 --> 00:31:54,610 S1: one of the most prestigious awards that this country gives 667 00:31:54,610 --> 00:31:57,310 S1: to people and certainly the most prestigious award we give 668 00:31:57,310 --> 00:32:00,709 S1: out in the entertainment industry was a little bit like 669 00:32:00,730 --> 00:32:07,630 S1: distressing and upsetting seeing her win that award was case 670 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,030 S1: a confirmation of like a lot of the uneasiness I 671 00:32:10,030 --> 00:32:14,230 S1: had felt. And as someone who covers television every day, 672 00:32:14,230 --> 00:32:15,640 S1: it's my job. Do it with you guys. Do it 673 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,820 S1: with our great team. Who cares a lot about this 674 00:32:18,820 --> 00:32:23,710 S1: country's cultural output? The stories we tell, seeing that recognized 675 00:32:23,710 --> 00:32:26,500 S1: and seeing that person put on that platform without ever 676 00:32:26,500 --> 00:32:31,060 S1: having expressed any contrition alongside the likes of Waleed and 677 00:32:31,060 --> 00:32:35,290 S1: Carrie and beating people like Michael Smith and and Hamish Blake, 678 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,340 S1: it left me feeling really distressed and sad and depressed 679 00:32:39,340 --> 00:32:42,010 S1: about where we are as as a country. There's a 680 00:32:42,010 --> 00:32:44,050 S1: lot to get into. And I'm sorry that I'm probably 681 00:32:44,050 --> 00:32:46,150 S1: waffling on a little bit, but I think one of 682 00:32:46,150 --> 00:32:47,950 S1: the things that's really stood out to me this whole 683 00:32:47,950 --> 00:32:53,350 S1: time is there's no way this would ever happen at 684 00:32:53,350 --> 00:32:56,140 S1: the Emmys or at the Oscars or at the Grammys. 685 00:32:56,140 --> 00:32:58,120 S1: Like there is no way it would happen. And if 686 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,570 S1: someone like that was even nominated, there would be very 687 00:33:01,570 --> 00:33:06,760 S1: vocal public protests and backlash to it. And I think 688 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,580 S1: what I'm more interested in, or at least like what 689 00:33:09,580 --> 00:33:12,670 S1: I'm really interested in, is talking about why there seems 690 00:33:12,670 --> 00:33:14,950 S1: to have been so little discussion in the lead up 691 00:33:14,950 --> 00:33:17,350 S1: to these awards after she was nominated and in the 692 00:33:17,350 --> 00:33:21,040 S1: aftermath in Australia when I think it would have happened 693 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,590 S1: in the UK, it would have happened in the US. 694 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,180 S1: I understand I've got more of a personal sort of 695 00:33:26,180 --> 00:33:28,670 S1: connection to this thing, given my background than either of 696 00:33:28,670 --> 00:33:30,770 S1: you guys. But I am interested in hearing how you 697 00:33:30,770 --> 00:33:34,580 S1: guys felt about that award either in their lead up 698 00:33:34,580 --> 00:33:37,580 S1: or afterwards. I know, Thomas, you've spoken to heaps of people. 699 00:33:37,580 --> 00:33:39,350 S1: You were there that night. How did you feel? Anything 700 00:33:39,350 --> 00:33:40,790 S1: you want to you want to share? 701 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,930 S2: Yeah. I mean, it was a very interesting moment because 702 00:33:45,470 --> 00:33:48,350 S2: obviously you and I had discussed that. And to me anyway, 703 00:33:48,350 --> 00:33:51,590 S2: I thought that was a very obvious thing that people 704 00:33:51,590 --> 00:33:53,570 S2: were going to be up for discussing. And the way 705 00:33:53,570 --> 00:33:56,450 S2: it works, basically, you know, whoever wins the Gold Logie, 706 00:33:56,450 --> 00:33:59,720 S2: they go up on stage, they do their speech, then 707 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:01,640 S2: they go into one media room, which is run by 708 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,860 S2: TV Week, and they do some interviews and get some 709 00:34:03,860 --> 00:34:06,170 S2: photos done for the following weeks magazine. Then they come 710 00:34:06,170 --> 00:34:08,090 S2: into a general media room where like a press pack 711 00:34:08,090 --> 00:34:10,430 S2: is waiting and, you know, they get some photos and 712 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:14,540 S2: they answer questions. And Sonia came in and, you know, 713 00:34:14,570 --> 00:34:17,450 S2: she faced a few questions. And I was kind of 714 00:34:17,450 --> 00:34:19,819 S2: like waiting, waiting for someone to bring it up. And 715 00:34:19,820 --> 00:34:22,400 S2: I knew that I wanted to talk about it. And 716 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,860 S2: then when I did get my chance to speak with Sonia, 717 00:34:24,860 --> 00:34:27,320 S2: we we spoke about lots of different things. But when 718 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,290 S2: we kind of came to this moment that I wanted 719 00:34:30,290 --> 00:34:33,110 S2: to discuss with her, especially because it is worth noting, 720 00:34:33,110 --> 00:34:36,469 S2: like the the not backlash, but the reaction to her 721 00:34:36,469 --> 00:34:38,840 S2: win was pretty instantaneous, both in terms of like know 722 00:34:38,870 --> 00:34:40,550 S2: there were people supporting her, but there were people that 723 00:34:40,550 --> 00:34:43,160 S2: immediately brought this up because like you said, it is 724 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:47,120 S2: a significant part of her career and she's had ups 725 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:48,530 S2: and downs. But this is like, yeah, this is on 726 00:34:48,530 --> 00:34:51,529 S2: the Wikipedia list. And when I brought it up with her, 727 00:34:51,980 --> 00:34:53,810 S2: to be honest, Sonia, it seemed a bit lost for 728 00:34:53,810 --> 00:34:56,270 S2: words and then it was promptly shut down by the 729 00:34:56,270 --> 00:34:59,359 S2: publicist running the room. And it was kind of like, 730 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,040 S2: This is not for discussion tonight. This is a big 731 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:02,990 S2: golden moment. And that was the end of that. And 732 00:35:02,989 --> 00:35:06,049 S2: I was really surprised. And and I wasn't surprised, though, 733 00:35:06,050 --> 00:35:09,350 S2: that the next day lots of stories followed yours. Oseman 734 00:35:09,469 --> 00:35:12,190 S2: kind of raising this because it is worth talking about. 735 00:35:12,190 --> 00:35:14,479 S2: And I think specifically and this is my biggest issue 736 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,419 S2: with it, you know, it's not about she ever made 737 00:35:17,420 --> 00:35:20,569 S2: these comments as as bad as they are, people say 738 00:35:20,570 --> 00:35:23,870 S2: things and later regret them. And that's you know that's okay. 739 00:35:23,870 --> 00:35:26,120 S2: But the fact that they've never been addressed, never been 740 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,000 S2: talked about, never been walked back, never even like come 741 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,419 S2: up again. And that was probably the most jarring thing 742 00:35:32,420 --> 00:35:33,709 S2: for me and a lot of people that I've spoken 743 00:35:33,710 --> 00:35:37,520 S2: to since, as sad as this sounds, people were like, Oh, 744 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:39,590 S2: I just forgot about it. I just forgot that she 745 00:35:39,590 --> 00:35:41,810 S2: ever said them. And you know, it was 2016, I think, 746 00:35:41,810 --> 00:35:43,609 S2: when the comments were made. But a lot of people 747 00:35:43,610 --> 00:35:46,069 S2: just seem to it didn't even register on their radar 748 00:35:46,070 --> 00:35:47,529 S2: or it's just been like wiped. 749 00:35:47,540 --> 00:35:50,180 S3: And it was an opportunity that maybe she could have 750 00:35:50,180 --> 00:35:53,990 S3: used the platform to issue a kind of apology and 751 00:35:53,989 --> 00:35:57,469 S3: to make a more positive statement to correct the past. 752 00:35:57,469 --> 00:36:00,350 S3: But she kind of didn't want to address it and 753 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,960 S3: hasn't addressed it since, which I think is a real 754 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,140 S3: missed opportunity for her. If she has changed from those 755 00:36:06,140 --> 00:36:09,230 S3: views she held in 2016, it would have been an 756 00:36:09,230 --> 00:36:13,130 S3: opportunity to talk about why she's changed and why she 757 00:36:13,130 --> 00:36:14,420 S3: said what she said at the time and how she 758 00:36:14,420 --> 00:36:18,320 S3: feels now. But the complete absence of addressing those comments 759 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,650 S3: makes you think she maybe maybe those comments are still 760 00:36:21,650 --> 00:36:22,850 S3: what she believes. 761 00:36:22,850 --> 00:36:24,630 S2: Yeah, and I think what's particularly interesting is that, you know, 762 00:36:24,650 --> 00:36:27,530 S2: it's not to say that anyone in any other awards 763 00:36:27,530 --> 00:36:29,210 S2: ceremony in the world, especially you said, the UK and 764 00:36:29,210 --> 00:36:31,489 S2: the US, like it's not to say that anyone hasn't 765 00:36:31,489 --> 00:36:34,460 S2: won an award that probably has some serious skeletons in 766 00:36:34,460 --> 00:36:36,440 S2: the closet. But the thing about this is that it's 767 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,750 S2: the most popular award. So it's not like, you know, 768 00:36:38,750 --> 00:36:41,839 S2: Sonia's won an award for acting and even though she's 769 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,450 S2: a bit, you know, problematic, but like, you know, her 770 00:36:44,450 --> 00:36:46,550 S2: performance in X was really good. This is the most 771 00:36:46,550 --> 00:36:49,640 S2: popular like this is voted because people like her and 772 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:51,590 S2: like what she represents and what she does on screen, 773 00:36:51,590 --> 00:36:54,109 S2: but like it's the whole package. And so, like, that 774 00:36:54,110 --> 00:36:57,560 S2: does really make this this incident important in the context 775 00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:58,310 S2: of that win. 776 00:36:58,310 --> 00:37:00,800 S3: But also, what is it with Australian TV that like 777 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,290 S3: once you get a hosting job, you just have it 778 00:37:03,290 --> 00:37:06,020 S3: for the rest of your life forever, like you do 779 00:37:06,020 --> 00:37:08,780 S3: one Dancing with the Stars and then you will be like, 780 00:37:08,780 --> 00:37:10,520 S3: I think it speaks to what we often talk about 781 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,280 S3: the need for fresh talent because you just have these 782 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,739 S3: same people and it's almost like maybe you get a 783 00:37:15,739 --> 00:37:18,680 S3: hall pass for your errors because you know you've done 784 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:20,450 S3: so many other things and you do so many other 785 00:37:20,450 --> 00:37:22,220 S3: things and there's no one to replace you or the 786 00:37:22,219 --> 00:37:24,590 S3: perception that there's no one to replace you. But it's 787 00:37:24,590 --> 00:37:26,600 S3: kind of like, are you I feel like so many 788 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:30,140 S3: of so many hosts are unfavourable to some extent, yeah. 789 00:37:30,140 --> 00:37:32,450 S1: It's a lot of a lot of talk about like, 790 00:37:32,450 --> 00:37:34,980 S1: do you want to cancel this person? You know, you 791 00:37:34,980 --> 00:37:36,710 S1: don't want this person to never be on TV again. 792 00:37:36,950 --> 00:37:39,790 S1: Australian TV is never at risk of that. Like when 793 00:37:39,950 --> 00:37:42,919 S1: Darrell Summers is still hosting Dancing with the Stars with 794 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,680 S1: Sonia Kruger and he handed her the Gold Logie. And 795 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:47,989 S1: and to be honest, like, I don't even know if 796 00:37:47,989 --> 00:37:51,560 S1: the argument here is Sonia Kruger should be off TV 797 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,660 S1: or Senator Krueger should not be eligible for the gold logo. 798 00:37:53,660 --> 00:37:56,300 S1: Sonia Kruger could never win an award. I don't really 799 00:37:56,300 --> 00:37:58,700 S1: think that's what this is about. I think it's about 800 00:37:58,700 --> 00:38:00,830 S1: exactly what you guys were just saying, is the fact 801 00:38:00,830 --> 00:38:05,120 S1: that without needing to reckon with those comments or really 802 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,570 S1: anyone in the industry asking her to reckon with them 803 00:38:08,570 --> 00:38:11,660 S1: and what's happened since 2016, it's not like she said 804 00:38:11,660 --> 00:38:13,550 S1: something at a time that was particularly bad and now 805 00:38:13,550 --> 00:38:16,489 S1: we live in this great land of fairies and meadows 806 00:38:16,489 --> 00:38:20,630 S1: like the sum of phobia across the Western world has 807 00:38:20,630 --> 00:38:23,820 S1: has increased. The far right is more emboldened than. Ever 808 00:38:23,850 --> 00:38:26,219 S1: like these are things. These are ideas. These are the 809 00:38:26,219 --> 00:38:28,890 S1: kinds of bits of rhetoric that like, I think, do 810 00:38:28,890 --> 00:38:31,620 S1: have an impact on the way people feel and the 811 00:38:31,620 --> 00:38:34,410 S1: kinds of conversations we have in this country. And so 812 00:38:34,739 --> 00:38:37,380 S1: the idea that you can say something like that and 813 00:38:37,380 --> 00:38:40,530 S1: the entertainment industry, which in so many other ways regards 814 00:38:40,530 --> 00:38:43,529 S1: itself as very progressive and like bleeding hot. Like there 815 00:38:43,530 --> 00:38:46,780 S1: was a moment where Rachel Perkins, who runs black fellow 816 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,640 S1: films and one allergy, she led the crowd in a 817 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:54,270 S1: chant of like, vote yes, vote yes for the upcoming 818 00:38:54,270 --> 00:38:57,420 S1: referendum on on the Voice. So people want to think 819 00:38:57,420 --> 00:39:00,450 S1: of themselves as being like really well-meaning, and they're trying 820 00:39:00,450 --> 00:39:03,210 S1: the best to fix diversity. But at the same time, 821 00:39:03,210 --> 00:39:05,370 S1: no one really wants to talk about this. Like, I 822 00:39:05,370 --> 00:39:09,030 S1: still think it's odd that a few days after the event, 823 00:39:09,570 --> 00:39:13,410 S1: the only people who've really written about this are like me, 824 00:39:13,410 --> 00:39:17,759 S1: another Muslim guy in and a muslim colleague of ours 825 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,810 S1: who writes for pedestrian. There hasn't really been anyone else 826 00:39:21,810 --> 00:39:24,540 S1: coming out and saying this is a little bit weird. Like, 827 00:39:24,540 --> 00:39:27,029 S1: what does this mean? Does this mean there is no bar? 828 00:39:27,030 --> 00:39:30,330 S1: There's nothing that anyone can say, no tribunal finding that 829 00:39:30,330 --> 00:39:32,580 S1: can be delivered. That means that you have to at 830 00:39:32,580 --> 00:39:34,800 S1: least grapple with what you've said in the impact of 831 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,250 S1: what you said. Before we shower you with the biggest 832 00:39:38,250 --> 00:39:41,340 S1: award we have as an industry and in particular, I 833 00:39:41,340 --> 00:39:43,500 S1: think what I'm really sad about is out of the 834 00:39:43,500 --> 00:39:45,870 S1: thousands of people that attended the Logies and were there 835 00:39:45,870 --> 00:39:49,050 S1: and were part of the anointing of Kruger, many of 836 00:39:49,050 --> 00:39:51,540 S1: them have contacted me personally and said, Thanks for writing 837 00:39:51,540 --> 00:39:54,330 S1: that piece like lots of them have, and that's really nice. 838 00:39:54,330 --> 00:39:57,090 S1: But none of them have said anything publicly, and I 839 00:39:57,090 --> 00:40:00,750 S1: think that speaks to a general insularity in this industry. 840 00:40:00,750 --> 00:40:04,140 S1: It's very small. Everyone knows everyone. No one wants to 841 00:40:04,140 --> 00:40:06,989 S1: annoy powerful people. No one wants to be seen as 842 00:40:06,989 --> 00:40:09,480 S1: being a troublemaker. I know that. I sound like I'm 843 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,450 S1: kind of contradicting myself. I'm not necessarily angry at those people. 844 00:40:12,450 --> 00:40:15,540 S1: I'm not demanding anyone does anything. But I think it is. 845 00:40:16,290 --> 00:40:19,229 S1: Reflective of how things work here. And I think that's 846 00:40:19,230 --> 00:40:21,750 S1: worth noting and I'm glad that I got to write 847 00:40:21,750 --> 00:40:23,190 S1: that piece and I'm glad that people read it and 848 00:40:23,190 --> 00:40:25,740 S1: I'm glad that I can talk about it with you guys, 849 00:40:25,739 --> 00:40:28,890 S1: because I do think it's a bit of a nadir. 850 00:40:28,890 --> 00:40:30,930 S1: And I hope that even if there isn't heaps of 851 00:40:30,930 --> 00:40:34,589 S1: public conversation about this, people are thinking about it and 852 00:40:34,590 --> 00:40:37,620 S1: are talking about it and are going to start expecting 853 00:40:37,620 --> 00:40:40,350 S1: a little bit better from who we decide to anoint 854 00:40:40,350 --> 00:40:46,439 S1: as the biggest television personality in this country. Thomas are 855 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:50,580 S1: you at all surprised about the lack of discourse publicly 856 00:40:50,580 --> 00:40:52,560 S1: from people, or are you just like, this is how 857 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:54,540 S1: this industry kind of operates? 858 00:40:54,750 --> 00:40:57,210 S2: Yeah, I guess I am. And I'm not like I 859 00:40:57,210 --> 00:41:01,470 S2: probably not because as you said, you know, Australian TV 860 00:41:01,469 --> 00:41:04,799 S2: is a small pond and even the people at the 861 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,950 S2: top are worried about their next job. I guess I 862 00:41:07,950 --> 00:41:11,280 S2: found it uneasy to watch what was a very high 863 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:16,110 S2: profile campaign from seven and seven talent pushing Sonya on 864 00:41:16,110 --> 00:41:19,590 S2: your Sonya. And you know, I having previously worked at 865 00:41:19,590 --> 00:41:21,660 S2: the Seven Network and knowing a lot of these people 866 00:41:21,660 --> 00:41:24,569 S2: and knowing kind of like where they stand on things, 867 00:41:24,570 --> 00:41:28,080 S2: I just found it interesting to kind of watch, you know, 868 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:31,739 S2: this very public support. And I struggled to reconcile knowing 869 00:41:31,739 --> 00:41:33,719 S2: how they feel about certain things. And then the public 870 00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:37,170 S2: support for someone who has said these things. And yeah, 871 00:41:37,170 --> 00:41:40,170 S2: it does make for an interesting kind of like dynamic, 872 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,830 S2: but like even someone like Nazeem Hussain, the comedian, you know, 873 00:41:43,830 --> 00:41:47,580 S2: he he did publicly tweet following Sonia's win saying he 874 00:41:47,580 --> 00:41:49,410 S2: was returning from a gig in New Zealand. Like, am 875 00:41:49,410 --> 00:41:51,450 S2: I just seeing Sonia Kruger's kind of like won the gold? 876 00:41:51,660 --> 00:41:53,280 S2: Am I going to be allowed back in the country? 877 00:41:53,310 --> 00:41:55,590 S2: He later removed that tweet and like, I don't know 878 00:41:55,590 --> 00:41:59,250 S2: why he did that, but, you know, potentially it was like, 879 00:41:59,250 --> 00:42:01,380 S2: is this is this worth it for me? Is this 880 00:42:01,380 --> 00:42:03,660 S2: worth it? Maybe putting the powers that be at one 881 00:42:03,660 --> 00:42:06,000 S2: of the biggest networks in Australia where hopefully we'll get 882 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,029 S2: some work at some point, like offside because I'm like 883 00:42:09,030 --> 00:42:10,950 S2: pissed off about this personally. Like I'll just sleep on 884 00:42:10,950 --> 00:42:13,380 S2: it and just have to get over it. I mean, again, 885 00:42:13,380 --> 00:42:15,870 S2: that's just me reading between the lines, but it's just 886 00:42:15,870 --> 00:42:17,190 S2: one of those things that it is. It is a 887 00:42:17,190 --> 00:42:19,350 S2: small pond and it's hard to get work at the 888 00:42:19,350 --> 00:42:21,870 S2: best of times. And so people are no doubt feeling like, 889 00:42:22,140 --> 00:42:26,190 S2: is it worth risking my potential future earnings by kind 890 00:42:26,190 --> 00:42:27,990 S2: of coming out and saying what I think you rather 891 00:42:27,989 --> 00:42:30,810 S2: just like I'll just internalize it and move on. 892 00:42:31,690 --> 00:42:33,430 S1: Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And 893 00:42:33,430 --> 00:42:35,709 S1: I think, again, you know, the more I thought about it, 894 00:42:35,710 --> 00:42:37,989 S1: nothing I've said about this or am saying about this 895 00:42:37,989 --> 00:42:40,719 S1: is some sort of plea for people to speak up 896 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:42,580 S1: and do whatever. I think I was pretty clear in 897 00:42:42,580 --> 00:42:46,490 S1: the the article I wrote about it that. Everything you 898 00:42:46,489 --> 00:42:49,370 S1: said is right. Like this is a structural problem across 899 00:42:49,370 --> 00:42:53,330 S1: this industry and it's not a moral failing to not 900 00:42:53,330 --> 00:42:55,610 S1: want to risk your livelihood. Right. To like take a 901 00:42:55,610 --> 00:42:58,280 S1: shot at someone. Because you can also argue that like, 902 00:42:58,280 --> 00:42:59,870 S1: what does that do after the fact? You know, it 903 00:42:59,870 --> 00:43:02,180 S1: makes you kind of feel feel good or like send 904 00:43:02,180 --> 00:43:04,160 S1: a bit of a signal. But is that changing anything 905 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:08,450 S1: for the better? Not necessarily. I think ultimately I just 906 00:43:08,450 --> 00:43:12,740 S1: hope that the people who did read mine and others 907 00:43:12,739 --> 00:43:16,460 S1: stories on this and see how it hurts the people 908 00:43:16,460 --> 00:43:18,590 S1: who are at the nexus of these two things like 909 00:43:18,590 --> 00:43:20,870 S1: being Muslim and caring too much about Australian TV. I 910 00:43:20,870 --> 00:43:23,270 S1: don't know how many of us there are, but like 911 00:43:23,270 --> 00:43:25,910 S1: those of us in particular, like I'm upset because I 912 00:43:25,910 --> 00:43:28,250 S1: am one of the weirdos who is invested in the 913 00:43:28,250 --> 00:43:31,280 S1: lodges and is invested in Australian television and it makes 914 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,339 S1: me feel really deflated that people I know that I 915 00:43:34,340 --> 00:43:36,049 S1: work with, that I report on that I've known for 916 00:43:36,050 --> 00:43:40,259 S1: a long time. Saw this happen, helped make it happen. 917 00:43:40,590 --> 00:43:43,410 S1: And then when it did happen. Didn't do anything about it. 918 00:43:43,410 --> 00:43:46,200 S1: That's the thing that leaves me feeling the sort of flattest. 919 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:51,060 S1: And I think as we see this prestige, amazing world 920 00:43:51,060 --> 00:43:53,310 S1: of television coming out of the US and we're at 921 00:43:53,310 --> 00:43:55,320 S1: to talk about The Bear, which is a show that 922 00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,110 S1: is like fun and diverse and exciting. And you see 923 00:43:58,110 --> 00:44:01,620 S1: their cast on strike fighting for their colleagues and pushing 924 00:44:01,620 --> 00:44:04,620 S1: forward really interesting ideas about what it means to make 925 00:44:04,620 --> 00:44:07,310 S1: art and what the purpose of acting and writing is. 926 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,510 S1: It's just a big contrast, I think, to what we 927 00:44:09,510 --> 00:44:10,620 S1: saw on Sunday night. 928 00:44:10,620 --> 00:44:14,460 S3: Yeah, and I know this doesn't make everything better, but 929 00:44:14,810 --> 00:44:17,219 S3: I think we're all very proud to work at a 930 00:44:17,219 --> 00:44:20,640 S3: publication and to see you publish that piece, which was 931 00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,160 S3: so brilliant. And if people haven't read it, they should 932 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:24,960 S3: definitely go and read it. And like maybe it's a 933 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:28,229 S3: bit naively optimistic, but I do think a piece like 934 00:44:28,230 --> 00:44:31,170 S3: that will make a difference for people who maybe haven't 935 00:44:31,170 --> 00:44:33,480 S3: thought about these issues or have only thought about it 936 00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,239 S3: a little. I do have faith that pieces like your 937 00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:38,700 S3: piece will kind of change the dial, even if it's 938 00:44:38,700 --> 00:44:40,200 S3: only a small start. 939 00:44:40,950 --> 00:44:42,360 S2: And then this time next year you'll be up on 940 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,120 S2: that platform holding the Gold Logie Inshallah that. 941 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:49,470 S3: We are going to campaign hard. 942 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:52,380 S1: Should we? Should we? All three of us are on TV. 943 00:44:52,469 --> 00:44:54,870 S1: We have like, you know, regular bits on today, extra 944 00:44:54,870 --> 00:44:58,050 S1: on Channel nine. We should nominate ourselves for most popular 945 00:44:58,050 --> 00:45:00,989 S1: or outstanding presenters. If Amy can do it for judging 946 00:45:00,989 --> 00:45:02,130 S1: a show no one watches. 947 00:45:03,180 --> 00:45:04,890 S3: You could be best new talent. Thomas I love. 948 00:45:04,890 --> 00:45:06,719 S2: That. I would actually love that. Of course I would 949 00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:07,980 S2: give a cracking. 950 00:45:08,010 --> 00:45:20,790 S1: Get Thomas ology. The campaign starts. This is great. Let's 951 00:45:20,790 --> 00:45:23,960 S1: move on to something way more fun and less grim. 952 00:45:23,969 --> 00:45:26,760 S1: The Bear. We had a great chat about it last week. 953 00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,820 S1: Mel was roasted by all her family, friends and bosses 954 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,970 S1: at this company. I want I go to you first, Mel, 955 00:45:32,969 --> 00:45:36,180 S1: because I've got a feeling that I know what you're 956 00:45:36,180 --> 00:45:38,969 S1: going to say the second of five episodes of this show. 957 00:45:39,610 --> 00:45:41,469 S1: How did that make you feel about this season? 958 00:45:41,500 --> 00:45:43,150 S3: Tell me, what do you think I'm going to say? 959 00:45:43,860 --> 00:45:46,589 S1: Well, I think you're going to say they're fucking great. 960 00:45:46,590 --> 00:45:49,739 S1: And it changed my view entirely because I personally like 961 00:45:49,739 --> 00:45:52,020 S1: while I was close to the Thomas than you, I 962 00:45:52,020 --> 00:45:54,540 S1: had some quibbles about it, but I honestly think these 963 00:45:54,540 --> 00:45:56,640 S1: five episodes were like five of the best episodes of 964 00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:57,750 S1: TV I've seen this year. 965 00:45:57,840 --> 00:45:59,730 S3: Yeah, I mean, I don't really need to comment. You've 966 00:45:59,730 --> 00:46:03,420 S3: said it for me. I don't I don't wind back 967 00:46:03,420 --> 00:46:06,270 S3: my kind of like Sonia Kruger. Don't wind back my 968 00:46:06,270 --> 00:46:10,800 S3: my former comments. I think 1 to 5 I my 969 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:13,049 S3: points all still stand it was a bit obvious and 970 00:46:13,050 --> 00:46:16,170 S3: a bit sickly sweet. And I do think there was 971 00:46:16,170 --> 00:46:18,810 S3: still moments of that in the last five episodes, like 972 00:46:18,810 --> 00:46:23,490 S3: there were still a few obvious feelgood or overly sentimental moments. 973 00:46:23,489 --> 00:46:26,610 S3: But I do think episode six and seven, which was 974 00:46:26,610 --> 00:46:31,110 S3: the family Christmas Fishers and Forks were pretty amazing episodes 975 00:46:31,110 --> 00:46:34,560 S3: and also the finale. So yeah, it definitely won me 976 00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,650 S3: over because the good started to outweigh what I saw. 977 00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,290 S3: Is that the bad in the show? There you go. 978 00:46:40,290 --> 00:46:41,970 S3: Go on. I'm just go on. 979 00:46:42,450 --> 00:46:43,380 S1: Have you gloating moment. 980 00:46:43,620 --> 00:46:45,750 S2: I've been doing it like for the last two days, 981 00:46:45,750 --> 00:46:47,700 S2: ever since. I was like, Actually, the bed is pretty good. 982 00:46:47,700 --> 00:46:49,470 S2: I put my hand up, I was wrong. And I 983 00:46:49,469 --> 00:46:51,600 S2: was like, Well, let me get that on tape. Okay? 984 00:46:51,660 --> 00:46:53,010 S3: I never said I was wrong. 985 00:46:53,010 --> 00:46:54,510 S1: She didn't say that on tape. No. 986 00:46:54,510 --> 00:46:56,070 S2: That's sort of triggering to now. 987 00:46:56,340 --> 00:46:58,200 S3: Yes. Yes. Can I just say sorry? I walked into 988 00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,989 S3: the office the other day and Thomas was like, oh, 989 00:47:00,989 --> 00:47:04,290 S3: we can't talk about it anymore. And Thomas and another colleague, 990 00:47:04,530 --> 00:47:08,310 S3: music writer Rob Moran, had been discussing my views on 991 00:47:08,310 --> 00:47:11,670 S3: the podcast before I came into the office. Thomas was 992 00:47:11,670 --> 00:47:14,730 S3: reading Rob My Slack conversation with him. It's been a 993 00:47:14,730 --> 00:47:17,040 S3: real yeah, because I've been very ostracised. 994 00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:18,960 S2: You have? But you've come around now and I'm glad 995 00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:21,509 S2: that you have a heart and you can feel things. 996 00:47:21,510 --> 00:47:24,780 S2: And I really do think, you know, I loved the 997 00:47:24,780 --> 00:47:27,779 S2: first five episodes, but wow, this show like really picked 998 00:47:27,780 --> 00:47:30,450 S2: up in episode 6 to 10. Like, honestly, probably the 999 00:47:30,450 --> 00:47:33,210 S2: best show of the year for me, including succession, like 1000 00:47:33,210 --> 00:47:36,239 S2: just the way it like, grabbed your heart and just 1001 00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:40,590 S2: fucking squeezes it. It was beautiful. And I know we 1002 00:47:40,590 --> 00:47:42,480 S2: have a lot to talk about, but the finale I 1003 00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:45,270 S2: thought was also it was a very hard show to 1004 00:47:45,270 --> 00:47:47,640 S2: wrap up because it does play in those areas. That 1005 00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:50,700 S2: can be cliched, but it did it so well and 1006 00:47:50,700 --> 00:47:52,860 S2: as well as very obviously setting up a third season. 1007 00:47:53,100 --> 00:47:54,900 S2: But in that back half, it delivered some of the 1008 00:47:54,900 --> 00:47:57,029 S2: best moments of TV, which I would love to discuss. 1009 00:47:57,180 --> 00:47:58,350 S1: I reckon at the end of the year we're going 1010 00:47:58,350 --> 00:48:00,690 S1: to do like a best of TV catch up. I 1011 00:48:00,690 --> 00:48:03,120 S1: did not expect to find myself in this position, but 1012 00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:06,120 S1: I do think that after these five episodes it is 1013 00:48:06,780 --> 00:48:09,660 S1: head to head with succession like it may creep over 1014 00:48:09,660 --> 00:48:11,189 S1: the line. I think there's a little bit of recency 1015 00:48:11,190 --> 00:48:13,379 S1: bias for me, having just watched it and gone through 1016 00:48:13,380 --> 00:48:16,589 S1: like this emotional roller coaster with it. But it is extraordinary. 1017 00:48:16,590 --> 00:48:19,680 S1: Let's start let's talk a little bit about that sixth episode, 1018 00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:22,350 S1: Fishes The Christmas one. This is the one, Thomas, that 1019 00:48:22,350 --> 00:48:27,569 S1: you sort of foreshadowed, has an stacked cast, an incredible cast. 1020 00:48:27,570 --> 00:48:30,569 S1: But what I thought, what I didn't expect, having heard 1021 00:48:30,570 --> 00:48:33,240 S1: that there were all these cameos. Normally when that's done 1022 00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:35,640 S1: in a show like this, it's like for comedic effect. 1023 00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,400 S1: It's like we got Gillian Jacobs and you know, we 1024 00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:41,250 S1: got Bob Odenkirk in there from funny shows and they're 1025 00:48:41,250 --> 00:48:43,140 S1: having a great time. And there was definitely like some 1026 00:48:43,140 --> 00:48:46,440 S1: humor in this episode, but this was overwhelmingly a very 1027 00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:50,670 S1: traumatic and stressful episode that was full of drama, full 1028 00:48:50,670 --> 00:48:54,750 S1: of tension, but also helped us understand why the, the 1029 00:48:54,750 --> 00:48:57,450 S1: Bear family are like kind of fucked up and why 1030 00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:00,870 S1: Carmy is haunted and driven by these certain things. And 1031 00:49:00,870 --> 00:49:03,540 S1: we saw things that explained a lot, but also set 1032 00:49:03,540 --> 00:49:05,880 S1: things up in a narrative sense for the rest of 1033 00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:08,760 S1: this season. It was such a smart and impressive feat 1034 00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:12,480 S1: while also introducing us to these big actors that there 1035 00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:14,160 S1: was a risk that we'd get distracted by them. I 1036 00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:19,080 S1: just thought, I've never seen an ensemble cameo episode done this. 1037 00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:22,410 S3: Well, yeah, I agree. And I thought Jamie Lee Curtis, 1038 00:49:22,410 --> 00:49:26,610 S3: who plays Khamis mum, was just sensational, like just on 1039 00:49:26,610 --> 00:49:29,670 S3: a knife edge of emotions between kind of being really 1040 00:49:29,670 --> 00:49:33,750 S3: happy to being completely unhinged. And that episode just, I 1041 00:49:33,750 --> 00:49:35,040 S3: guess it is kind of like some of the best 1042 00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:38,370 S3: succession episodes. There was no let up of the tension 1043 00:49:38,370 --> 00:49:40,590 S3: and it just built and built and built and it 1044 00:49:40,590 --> 00:49:42,720 S3: was almost too much, wasn't it? It was more suffocating 1045 00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:45,360 S3: in many ways than being in the kitchen because you 1046 00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:46,860 S3: didn't know what was going to happen or where it 1047 00:49:46,860 --> 00:49:48,900 S3: was going to go and there was no real reprieve. 1048 00:49:48,900 --> 00:49:51,030 S2: Yeah, it actually kind of weirdly reminded me of Bor 1049 00:49:51,030 --> 00:49:53,310 S2: on the floor, like because they're all sitting around. It's like, 1050 00:49:53,310 --> 00:49:55,800 S2: you know, the table, the kitchen table, the dining table 1051 00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:57,600 S2: is like a big part of the episode. And it's 1052 00:49:57,600 --> 00:49:59,700 S2: similar to boring the floor when, you know, Logan is 1053 00:49:59,700 --> 00:50:01,560 S2: kind of going around mind fucking everyone. It's just that, yeah, 1054 00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:04,290 S2: it is. That tension doesn't let up. And like, I mean, 1055 00:50:04,290 --> 00:50:06,029 S2: we do spend some time in the kitchen. You've got 1056 00:50:06,210 --> 00:50:10,560 S2: Khamis mum like making this insane seven fish dish, like 1057 00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:13,620 S2: Italian tradition. You've got this buzzer like timer going off. 1058 00:50:13,620 --> 00:50:16,590 S2: There's like sauce splattering everywhere. And then we get to 1059 00:50:16,590 --> 00:50:18,660 S2: the dinner and it's like Christmas dinner, and it's just 1060 00:50:18,660 --> 00:50:20,760 S2: like this fucking mental illness, like, laid out on the 1061 00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:24,210 S2: table for everybody. And then you've got Kimmy's older brother 1062 00:50:24,210 --> 00:50:24,900 S2: who's still alive. 1063 00:50:24,969 --> 00:50:26,460 S1: Until throwing forks. Yeah. 1064 00:50:26,460 --> 00:50:29,100 S2: Like, and it's just, I mean, I think anyone who 1065 00:50:29,100 --> 00:50:31,500 S2: comes from, like, a large family or any family at all, 1066 00:50:31,500 --> 00:50:34,020 S2: everyone's weird in their own way, can empathize and kind 1067 00:50:34,020 --> 00:50:37,140 S2: of like tap into that weirdness that kind of is 1068 00:50:37,140 --> 00:50:39,390 S2: comes to the surface when you put all those people 1069 00:50:39,390 --> 00:50:41,310 S2: in the same room. But when you do have all 1070 00:50:41,310 --> 00:50:43,710 S2: these different dynamics and obviously a lot of. Kind of 1071 00:50:43,710 --> 00:50:46,680 S2: like scar tissue in that family from wounds of the past. 1072 00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:51,630 S2: It just was so, like, uncomfortable but like intoxicating to 1073 00:50:51,630 --> 00:50:54,540 S2: watch it. And then especially again, I love this so 1074 00:50:54,540 --> 00:50:57,060 S2: much about the bear. Like Carmy is just has been 1075 00:50:57,060 --> 00:50:59,850 S2: such a fucking background character this season. And like that 1076 00:50:59,850 --> 00:51:02,100 S2: episode was not about he barely spoke in that episode, 1077 00:51:02,219 --> 00:51:04,980 S2: saved for like one quite nice scene with his brother. 1078 00:51:05,130 --> 00:51:07,169 S2: It was all about, you know, the mom and Bob 1079 00:51:07,170 --> 00:51:10,200 S2: Odenkirk character and Mikey, the older brother played by Jon 1080 00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:13,350 S2: Bernthal and, and yeah. And then in a way it 1081 00:51:13,350 --> 00:51:14,640 S2: sets up the rest of the season because we get 1082 00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:15,900 S2: a lot of things signposted. 1083 00:51:16,500 --> 00:51:19,500 S1: Fun fact for you. Gillian Jacobs Right. Who we know 1084 00:51:19,500 --> 00:51:22,710 S1: from community she know who her partner is in real life. 1085 00:51:23,450 --> 00:51:24,800 S2: Yeah. Yes, I do, actually. 1086 00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:26,930 S3: Yeah, we, I think we went, we were going down 1087 00:51:26,930 --> 00:51:29,719 S3: this deep dive. But refresh our memory. 1088 00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:32,029 S1: It's Christopher Dora the. 1089 00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:34,220 S2: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1090 00:51:34,219 --> 00:51:37,040 S3: I love her in love. That show on Netflix. Did 1091 00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:38,090 S3: you ever watch that? Yeah. 1092 00:51:38,090 --> 00:51:40,040 S2: Loves love also. I don't know. But like, fun fact 1093 00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:42,710 S2: is kind of my IP, so I just wonder. 1094 00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:45,709 S1: Well, actually, no, I started it back. Yeah, but I 1095 00:51:45,710 --> 00:51:46,730 S1: made it was the first one to do it. And 1096 00:51:46,730 --> 00:51:47,930 S1: you ripped it out of my hands. 1097 00:51:48,050 --> 00:51:48,709 S2: It wasn't very fun. 1098 00:51:48,710 --> 00:51:49,310 S12: When you did it. 1099 00:51:49,310 --> 00:51:53,450 S3: You just did. Fact. I think you're right, though. None 1100 00:51:53,450 --> 00:51:56,390 S3: of the none of the cameos overshadowed each other. Like 1101 00:51:56,390 --> 00:51:58,720 S3: they worked so well as an ensemble. Gillian Jacobs, I 1102 00:51:58,730 --> 00:52:01,100 S3: thought was great. Just like throwing up in the background, 1103 00:52:01,100 --> 00:52:03,920 S3: this very kind of physical embodiment of what was playing 1104 00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:06,830 S3: out at the table. Bob Odenkirk Building that tension with 1105 00:52:06,830 --> 00:52:09,800 S3: the fork was perfection. Yeah, I think as a team, 1106 00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:11,120 S3: they all worked so well. 1107 00:52:11,150 --> 00:52:13,190 S1: Did you got a bit of a bit of Osmond 1108 00:52:13,190 --> 00:52:15,410 S1: Thomas Vibes, the Bernthal Oh yeah. 1109 00:52:15,410 --> 00:52:17,959 S2: I did, yeah. Just two alphas going at it. 1110 00:52:18,770 --> 00:52:19,910 S3: I don't know what that makes me. 1111 00:52:20,270 --> 00:52:20,930 S2: You're Donna. 1112 00:52:25,190 --> 00:52:25,760 S3: Wow. 1113 00:52:25,969 --> 00:52:28,640 S2: But then and I think what's again, so incredible is 1114 00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:30,830 S2: that that episode I finished it, I was like, oh 1115 00:52:30,830 --> 00:52:34,130 S2: my God, so much PTSD in watching that, but amazing. 1116 00:52:34,130 --> 00:52:35,960 S2: And then lo and behold, episode seven, I'm like, Is 1117 00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:37,430 S2: this even fucking better? Richie Oh. 1118 00:52:37,430 --> 00:52:40,310 S1: Gosh. So I reckon this is even better. Like, I 1119 00:52:40,310 --> 00:52:43,280 S1: reckon it is actually better because I've been a Richie 1120 00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:46,670 S1: guy from day one. You love Richie and him having 1121 00:52:46,670 --> 00:52:50,090 S1: his own arc and it making sense and it being 1122 00:52:50,090 --> 00:52:54,590 S1: so beautiful about him finding meaning in life, about him 1123 00:52:54,590 --> 00:52:59,650 S1: understanding what hospitality really is about. A cameo from Oscar 1124 00:52:59,650 --> 00:53:02,169 S1: winner Olivia Colman, two Oscar winners in a row. At 1125 00:53:02,170 --> 00:53:05,500 S1: the end, a Taylor Swift needle drop love story like 1126 00:53:05,500 --> 00:53:07,330 S1: my favorite Taylor Swift song. I know. It's like a 1127 00:53:07,330 --> 00:53:09,279 S1: real basic take, but it is. 1128 00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:11,530 S2: This, those big open areas. There's a lot of it was. 1129 00:53:11,530 --> 00:53:14,260 S1: Like it was made for me. It's like my guy 1130 00:53:14,290 --> 00:53:18,010 S1: doing the hospital thing, singing along to Taylor Swift, Olivia 1131 00:53:18,010 --> 00:53:22,300 S1: Colman in there peeling mushrooms, just like fantastic stuff. 1132 00:53:22,300 --> 00:53:25,540 S3: I agree. Richie completely stole this season for me. I 1133 00:53:25,540 --> 00:53:29,080 S3: do have one small quibble with do you? My only issue, 1134 00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:30,670 S3: and again, this was what was annoying me in the 1135 00:53:30,670 --> 00:53:32,410 S3: first with these standalone issues. 1136 00:53:32,650 --> 00:53:34,480 S1: I thought you might have some thoughts about this because 1137 00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:37,180 S1: this is the most like guy goes on journey and 1138 00:53:37,180 --> 00:53:39,640 S1: realizes the meaning of life kind of episode. 1139 00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:42,100 S3: Exactly. And I loved I love the episode, I love 1140 00:53:42,100 --> 00:53:44,080 S3: the repetition of the getting up and looking at the clock. 1141 00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:47,049 S3: The scene with Gillian Jacobs was heartbreaking, the singing in 1142 00:53:47,050 --> 00:53:49,390 S3: the car. But then it just upset me a little. 1143 00:53:49,390 --> 00:53:51,850 S3: It was tied off, I thought, quite neatly. In the end, 1144 00:53:51,850 --> 00:53:53,620 S3: when he goes back to the restaurant and he's like, 1145 00:53:53,620 --> 00:53:55,930 S3: Now I'm ready to be a project manager. Like it 1146 00:53:55,930 --> 00:53:58,330 S3: happened very fast, all in one episode. 1147 00:53:58,330 --> 00:54:00,370 S1: Yeah, I wear suits now and I'm like, I've been 1148 00:54:00,370 --> 00:54:02,410 S1: here for a week, like five days and now I'm 1149 00:54:02,410 --> 00:54:04,569 S1: like a professor. Like, I understand that. And I think, 1150 00:54:04,570 --> 00:54:08,230 S1: you know, this is it's like more like traditional TV 1151 00:54:08,230 --> 00:54:11,589 S1: than the prestige stuff that we're used to, where there's 1152 00:54:11,590 --> 00:54:14,530 S1: still so much complex and nuance. But like, I get that. 1153 00:54:14,530 --> 00:54:17,290 S1: Mel Like, I do get it. But also it was 1154 00:54:17,290 --> 00:54:20,620 S1: also great to see him like to change and to 1155 00:54:20,620 --> 00:54:23,800 S1: learn and then enact some of those things and maybe 1156 00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:25,960 S1: next season will see him unravel a bit. Like, I 1157 00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,810 S1: feel like we're never just going to this show brings 1158 00:54:28,810 --> 00:54:31,300 S1: people forward and then watches them fall as well. I 1159 00:54:31,300 --> 00:54:33,580 S1: think that's the thing it does. How did you find 1160 00:54:33,580 --> 00:54:34,630 S1: the Richie Thomas? 1161 00:54:34,690 --> 00:54:36,880 S2: Yeah, I thought it was amazing to watch him kind 1162 00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:39,069 S2: of like, you know, the season basically begins with him 1163 00:54:39,070 --> 00:54:41,530 S2: talking about purpose and like setting up this whole thing 1164 00:54:41,530 --> 00:54:44,649 S2: for the show. But he is someone that has been 1165 00:54:44,830 --> 00:54:47,380 S2: like probably like a massive dick for the whole show. 1166 00:54:47,380 --> 00:54:50,500 S2: Like he he's he's that person that everyone kind of knows. 1167 00:54:50,500 --> 00:54:53,260 S2: And you like him, but he's like pretty annoying, but 1168 00:54:53,260 --> 00:54:56,530 S2: he's lovable. And then to find his place was really nice. Yeah. 1169 00:54:56,530 --> 00:54:58,239 S2: Like again there was lots of magic of TV. Like 1170 00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:00,370 S2: in a week he becomes this amazing front of house 1171 00:55:00,370 --> 00:55:02,560 S2: guy and, you know, he just it all clicks and. 1172 00:55:02,830 --> 00:55:05,230 S2: And that's all good. But I was prepared to suspend, 1173 00:55:05,230 --> 00:55:07,390 S2: you know, my belief and let that wash over me. 1174 00:55:07,390 --> 00:55:08,620 S2: And I thought it was like there were some really 1175 00:55:08,620 --> 00:55:10,330 S2: beautiful moments when he goes to get the deep dish 1176 00:55:10,330 --> 00:55:12,600 S2: and then the chef, like, recreates the, like, you know, 1177 00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:14,710 S2: kind of like up markets, the deep dish. And he's 1178 00:55:14,710 --> 00:55:17,410 S2: so because he's so like Chicago proud and stuff. And 1179 00:55:17,410 --> 00:55:20,860 S2: so he was so like happy to give those people 1180 00:55:20,860 --> 00:55:23,800 S2: that Chicago experience and stuff. And yeah, it was it 1181 00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:26,170 S2: was a very beautiful episode. I do just need to 1182 00:55:26,170 --> 00:55:30,489 S2: draw something from the record. Ari The Rich Yep. So 1183 00:55:30,489 --> 00:55:33,819 S2: Mel and I were texting and she said, I really liked. 1184 00:55:33,950 --> 00:55:35,110 S1: The texting without me. 1185 00:55:35,110 --> 00:55:37,270 S2: This is like, Yeah, yeah. It's called Don't Chat to 1186 00:55:37,270 --> 00:55:40,299 S2: Osman Threads. Probably my favorite one. Oh, I really liked 1187 00:55:40,300 --> 00:55:42,490 S2: the rich. Yep. And I said, Me too. So nice. 1188 00:55:42,489 --> 00:55:44,530 S2: And then Mel said I liked it until his redemption. 1189 00:55:45,910 --> 00:55:48,250 S2: And then I said, Why are you so dead inside? 1190 00:55:48,370 --> 00:55:50,710 S2: And she said, I'm not dead inside. I just don't 1191 00:55:50,710 --> 00:55:51,880 S2: like predictable art. 1192 00:55:54,190 --> 00:55:55,900 S1: That sounds like you're dead inside, frankly. 1193 00:55:55,900 --> 00:55:56,410 S12: Thank you. 1194 00:55:56,469 --> 00:55:57,570 S1: What? Literally what it said. 1195 00:55:57,610 --> 00:56:00,310 S3: I just thought it was so nuanced and subtle until 1196 00:56:00,310 --> 00:56:02,950 S3: that last kind of bow was put on it. And 1197 00:56:02,950 --> 00:56:05,410 S3: I thought he was a very restrained actor. And the 1198 00:56:05,410 --> 00:56:09,160 S3: emotions were restrained, but real. And yeah, I just don't 1199 00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:10,840 S3: think they needed to tie it all up so quickly. 1200 00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:13,000 S3: But I understand why for the purposes of plot they did. 1201 00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:15,430 S1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, again, it's annoying because you're 1202 00:56:15,430 --> 00:56:17,830 S1: not wrong. Like it is literally the most Ted lasso 1203 00:56:17,830 --> 00:56:20,589 S1: episode of the show. Like you are right in that 1204 00:56:20,590 --> 00:56:22,989 S1: and I think it just maybe, you know, maybe Thomas 1205 00:56:22,989 --> 00:56:25,779 S1: and I have either slightly more faith in humanity or 1206 00:56:25,780 --> 00:56:28,780 S1: we just, like, see more of ourselves in him. 1207 00:56:28,780 --> 00:56:30,430 S2: Yeah, but also, you and I are big empaths. 1208 00:56:30,430 --> 00:56:31,600 S12: And Mel. 1209 00:56:31,900 --> 00:56:33,850 S3: You know what I reckon? I reckon we're going to 1210 00:56:33,850 --> 00:56:35,259 S3: start a chat without Thomas. 1211 00:56:35,260 --> 00:56:37,630 S12: Hear you. I'm sorry. 1212 00:56:37,780 --> 00:56:39,340 S2: I'm the glue. I'm the buffer. 1213 00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:44,410 S1: Let's get to the. The finale, which also was like, 1214 00:56:44,410 --> 00:56:46,210 S1: I kind of just came out of nowhere for me. Like, 1215 00:56:46,210 --> 00:56:48,820 S1: I did not know what was going to happen here. 1216 00:56:48,820 --> 00:56:51,969 S1: The restaurant's up and running. Things are working pretty well. Like, 1217 00:56:51,969 --> 00:56:53,920 S1: there's like, there's some issues, you know, like one of 1218 00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:56,890 S1: the one of the chefs leaves to go smoke crack 1219 00:56:56,890 --> 00:57:00,250 S1: in an alley like this. There's some challenges. The mom 1220 00:57:00,250 --> 00:57:04,150 S1: doesn't really want to come, but this climax, where Carmy 1221 00:57:04,150 --> 00:57:07,630 S1: gets locked in a fridge and has a meltdown because 1222 00:57:07,630 --> 00:57:11,560 S1: that is the sort of like summation of his failures 1223 00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:14,500 S1: from his perspective and the way they use that to 1224 00:57:14,500 --> 00:57:17,980 S1: see him have these conversations with, you know, with Syd, 1225 00:57:17,980 --> 00:57:23,110 S1: with Tina, then with his girlfriend, and then ultimately the 1226 00:57:23,110 --> 00:57:28,540 S1: big fight with Richie. Like, gosh, like I really felt 1227 00:57:28,540 --> 00:57:31,480 S1: that like, I felt every emotion in that scene. 1228 00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:34,600 S3: Yeah. Total Chef's Kiss for this episode. There were a 1229 00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:38,620 S3: few real standout moments. Pete and Donna, who knew Pete 1230 00:57:38,620 --> 00:57:42,610 S3: would really perform such a role? That encounter outside the 1231 00:57:42,610 --> 00:57:44,919 S3: restaurant where she's saying, Just tell me I don't have 1232 00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:47,650 S3: to come in. And then Pete returning and crying at 1233 00:57:47,650 --> 00:57:49,990 S3: the table. I thought it was just I did not 1234 00:57:49,990 --> 00:57:51,880 S3: see that coming. I thought it was so nicely done 1235 00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:54,729 S3: and such a quiet moment between these two kind of 1236 00:57:54,730 --> 00:57:56,020 S3: side characters. 1237 00:57:58,830 --> 00:58:00,720 S13: I want you to go back in. Just don't tell 1238 00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:04,670 S13: them you saw me, because this isn't what it. What 1239 00:58:04,670 --> 00:58:11,950 S13: do you mean you can't take it? I love them 1240 00:58:11,950 --> 00:58:20,640 S13: so much. I had a show in. I don't have 1241 00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:26,260 S13: to say I'm sorry. So please, just please, just go 1242 00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:28,410 S13: in and just tell me it's okay. 1243 00:58:31,330 --> 00:58:33,690 S2: Yeah, and especially because Pete has been like a real joke, 1244 00:58:33,700 --> 00:58:35,350 S2: you know, they all just, like, hang shit on him. 1245 00:58:35,350 --> 00:58:36,940 S2: And so, you know, it was really nice to see 1246 00:58:36,940 --> 00:58:40,030 S2: how impacted he was. And again, I just think like, 1247 00:58:40,030 --> 00:58:43,960 S2: you know, like the Donna character, she's so obviously fucked up, 1248 00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:45,730 S2: but she gets there and she, like, she doesn't want 1249 00:58:45,730 --> 00:58:47,440 S2: to ruin what she thinks is going to be like. 1250 00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:50,230 S2: She knows that her very presence in the room will 1251 00:58:50,230 --> 00:58:52,390 S2: taint what is like a big moment for her children. 1252 00:58:52,390 --> 00:58:54,910 S2: And she does love them in her own weird way 1253 00:58:54,970 --> 00:58:57,970 S2: as much as she is capable. Like that's her showing it. 1254 00:58:57,970 --> 00:59:00,880 S2: And it's just it's just so twisted. And then ultimately, 1255 00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:03,040 S2: we do get to this moment with Kami where, like, 1256 00:59:03,580 --> 00:59:05,800 S2: I know we keep bringing succession into it, but like, 1257 00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:07,780 S2: you know, the poison has very much dripped through both 1258 00:59:07,780 --> 00:59:09,610 S2: to him and his brother, who is now dead. But 1259 00:59:09,610 --> 00:59:11,860 S2: then Kami gets like trapped in this prison of his 1260 00:59:11,860 --> 00:59:14,470 S2: own making because like so many times throughout the season, 1261 00:59:14,470 --> 00:59:17,140 S2: we saw him not fix the door handle to the fridge. 1262 00:59:17,140 --> 00:59:18,880 S2: That's what they call a Chekhov's gun, in case you 1263 00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:19,780 S2: guys don't know. 1264 00:59:21,070 --> 00:59:22,780 S12: Don't know a lot of questions. No follow up questions. 1265 00:59:23,620 --> 00:59:25,570 S2: That was such a sitcom moment. Like I'm stuck in 1266 00:59:25,570 --> 00:59:27,820 S2: the fridge, but it was like fucking amazing. And just 1267 00:59:27,820 --> 00:59:31,540 S2: to watch him unravel and begin to question like this 1268 00:59:31,540 --> 00:59:33,310 S2: season has been so much framed in like, what is 1269 00:59:33,310 --> 00:59:35,080 S2: my purpose? But Kami is the one that has had 1270 00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:37,180 S2: to like, almost step away from his, like, God given 1271 00:59:37,180 --> 00:59:40,120 S2: talent to become a real human and a real person. 1272 00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:42,250 S2: And he's found that in Claire and he's starting to 1273 00:59:42,250 --> 00:59:44,140 S2: see there's more to life than just like fixating on 1274 00:59:44,140 --> 00:59:47,350 S2: his obsession. And he just like, you know, like, admonishes 1275 00:59:47,350 --> 00:59:51,160 S2: himself for letting himself get distracted by life, right? 1276 00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:52,630 S14: What the fuck was I thinking? Like, I was going 1277 00:59:52,630 --> 00:59:54,610 S14: to be in a relationship. I'm a fucking. I'm a 1278 00:59:54,610 --> 00:59:57,760 S14: fucking psycho. That's why. That's why I'm good at what 1279 00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:00,610 S14: I do. That's how I operate. I am the best 1280 01:00:00,610 --> 01:00:04,840 S14: because I didn't have any of this fucking bullshit. Right? 1281 01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:07,840 S14: I could. I could focus and I could concentrate. And 1282 01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:11,590 S14: I had a routine and I had fucking cell reception and. 1283 01:00:31,090 --> 01:00:33,220 S14: I don't need to provide amusement or enjoyment. 1284 01:00:37,850 --> 01:00:44,260 S15: I don't need to receive any amusement or enjoyment. I'm 1285 01:00:44,260 --> 01:00:50,980 S15: completely fine with that. Because no amount of good is 1286 01:00:50,980 --> 01:00:52,540 S15: worth how terrible this feels. 1287 01:00:55,620 --> 01:00:57,480 S2: And, you know, he gives this big speech like I 1288 01:00:57,480 --> 01:00:58,860 S2: feel like every season in the band now we're going 1289 01:00:58,860 --> 01:01:00,900 S2: to get like one carmy monologue. Like last season it 1290 01:01:00,900 --> 01:01:03,030 S2: was in like AA or whatever. He gives this big 1291 01:01:03,030 --> 01:01:05,430 S2: speech about like, you know, I don't I was the 1292 01:01:05,430 --> 01:01:07,380 S2: best because I didn't have any of this fucking bullshit. 1293 01:01:07,380 --> 01:01:09,480 S2: I don't need to provide a comedy monologue. 1294 01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:09,780 S3: Here we. 1295 01:01:09,780 --> 01:01:10,500 S12: Go. I don't need. 1296 01:01:10,500 --> 01:01:12,840 S2: To receive any amusement or joy. And I'm completely fine 1297 01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:15,240 S2: with that because no amount is worth no amount of 1298 01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:18,060 S2: good is worth how terrible this feels. And then lo 1299 01:01:18,060 --> 01:01:20,640 S2: and behold, we see they pan out and Claire is 1300 01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:22,890 S2: standing on the other side. And I just thought all 1301 01:01:22,890 --> 01:01:25,680 S2: of it again was like, So if you put your 1302 01:01:25,890 --> 01:01:28,110 S2: glasses on, you could see it as like, Oh, this 1303 01:01:28,110 --> 01:01:29,850 S2: is so predictable and stuff and I know you liked it. 1304 01:01:29,850 --> 01:01:32,820 S2: So I'm But like it was, it was amazing and 1305 01:01:32,820 --> 01:01:35,100 S2: like it fucking I felt that awe. And I think 1306 01:01:35,100 --> 01:01:37,080 S2: a lot of people watching were like, Oh, that. And 1307 01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:41,520 S2: then it ends with this very, very intense fight between 1308 01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:43,890 S2: Richie and Kami where they kind of say all the 1309 01:01:43,890 --> 01:01:45,660 S2: things they haven't been saying to each other for an 1310 01:01:45,660 --> 01:01:48,510 S2: entire season. And again, it had massive like Tom and 1311 01:01:48,510 --> 01:01:49,800 S2: Shiv on the balcony vibes. 1312 01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:53,160 S1: Yeah, Yeah. And I think one of the bravest things 1313 01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:56,700 S1: this show does is it makes Kami out to be 1314 01:01:56,700 --> 01:01:59,520 S1: probably one of the worst characters, 100% show. And I 1315 01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:01,260 S1: think that's a big swing for a show that is 1316 01:02:01,260 --> 01:02:04,380 S1: kind of named after him is about him and makes 1317 01:02:04,380 --> 01:02:06,930 S1: us sort of empathize with him because Jim White is 1318 01:02:06,930 --> 01:02:09,260 S1: so compelling and so good and we all love his arms. 1319 01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:11,160 S1: He looks great and white and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 1320 01:02:11,160 --> 01:02:15,030 S1: But his comments to Claire like he's in the wrong, 1321 01:02:15,030 --> 01:02:18,270 S1: like Claire has done nothing but support him and help him. 1322 01:02:18,270 --> 01:02:22,260 S1: And he can't quite handle how to do both. And Richie, 1323 01:02:22,260 --> 01:02:24,180 S1: like we've just seen Richie go on this journey where 1324 01:02:24,180 --> 01:02:26,940 S1: he's listened to calm. He's done what Calm wanted. He 1325 01:02:26,940 --> 01:02:30,920 S1: stepped up for calm. He's running the restaurant and calm 1326 01:02:30,930 --> 01:02:33,150 S1: can't crack it. And still he's like sort of mad 1327 01:02:33,150 --> 01:02:35,850 S1: at a Richie from a year ago. Rather than acknowledging 1328 01:02:35,850 --> 01:02:38,160 S1: the growth that Richie has gone on and the growth 1329 01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:40,380 S1: that he hasn't gone on is so obvious there. 1330 01:02:40,380 --> 01:02:43,230 S3: Yeah, that kind of annoyed me about me during this 1331 01:02:43,230 --> 01:02:46,350 S3: season was that he makes his emotional problems, everyone else's 1332 01:02:46,350 --> 01:02:48,900 S3: emotional problems like they've all got stuff going on as 1333 01:02:48,900 --> 01:02:50,700 S3: we've seen in the show. They've all got their own 1334 01:02:50,700 --> 01:02:53,550 S3: journeys to complete. But Carmy is just like dumping his 1335 01:02:53,550 --> 01:02:56,670 S3: feelings on everyone all the time, like on Sydney, whether 1336 01:02:56,670 --> 01:02:59,640 S3: they're under the table, on his sister, on Richie. And 1337 01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:02,700 S3: it's like, man, as the Stoics would say, stand up 1338 01:03:02,700 --> 01:03:03,740 S3: straight yourself. 1339 01:03:03,750 --> 01:03:05,820 S1: Yeah, that's such a good point. That's such a good point. 1340 01:03:05,820 --> 01:03:09,330 S1: Not I don't really understand what stoicism is, but my 1341 01:03:09,330 --> 01:03:11,430 S1: friend Bridget Delaney wrote a great book on stoicism. If 1342 01:03:11,430 --> 01:03:12,930 S1: you're listening. Bridget, I'm sorry, I haven't read it. 1343 01:03:13,380 --> 01:03:14,880 S3: Check it out. Don't worry. I gave you the I 1344 01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:15,720 S3: gave you the highlights. 1345 01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:18,960 S1: But. But yeah, the show really did go out of 1346 01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:21,960 S1: its way this season to show everyone dealing with stuff 1347 01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:25,470 S1: like Syd was dealing with, like expectations of a dad 1348 01:03:25,470 --> 01:03:28,800 S1: having to build this restaurant when Carmy went AWOL, like 1349 01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:33,090 S1: sugar is pregnant and dealing with the finances and dealing 1350 01:03:33,090 --> 01:03:36,000 S1: with the uncle and all of this stuff. Marcus's mom 1351 01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:38,520 S1: is sick and maybe dead at the end of this 1352 01:03:38,520 --> 01:03:39,930 S1: season right from those text messages. 1353 01:03:39,930 --> 01:03:42,210 S2: Plus, Marcus like shot his shot at Sydney and it 1354 01:03:42,210 --> 01:03:43,140 S2: did not go well. 1355 01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:46,290 S1: Yeah. And Richie, as we've said a couple of times, 1356 01:03:46,290 --> 01:03:50,160 S1: like dealing with like his his relationship with his family 1357 01:03:50,160 --> 01:03:52,890 S1: and and his own internal issues, like they're all dealing 1358 01:03:52,890 --> 01:03:55,920 S1: with stuff and they all stepped up and delivered and Tommy, 1359 01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:57,660 S1: what is Tommy's issue? He is trying to make a 1360 01:03:57,660 --> 01:04:01,170 S1: restaurant and also date this girl who seems really nice 1361 01:04:01,170 --> 01:04:03,479 S1: and like is to the extent that she's a manic 1362 01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:05,640 S1: pixie dream girl, like she's this male fantasy of a 1363 01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:08,040 S1: perfect woman and he can't handle that. And also do 1364 01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:10,320 S1: his fucking job. Like, step up, bro. 1365 01:04:10,320 --> 01:04:12,480 S3: I know. I really like the line. Actually, I was 1366 01:04:12,480 --> 01:04:14,640 S3: saying it this morning to Thomas. That maybe will become 1367 01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:16,680 S3: my mantra. That was like, if you want to be 1368 01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:18,750 S3: the man, be the man. And that's what I thought 1369 01:04:18,750 --> 01:04:20,400 S3: about for Carmy. I'm like, If you really want to 1370 01:04:20,400 --> 01:04:23,700 S3: do this, stop. Like, stop complaining about everything and just 1371 01:04:23,700 --> 01:04:24,740 S3: step up to the plate. Sir. 1372 01:04:24,750 --> 01:04:26,520 S2: Yeah, but I think like, that's why you see, like 1373 01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:29,700 S2: in the big fight between Richie and Carmy and like, what? Like, 1374 01:04:29,700 --> 01:04:32,850 S2: triggers carmy so much is that Richie says. Are you okay, Donna? 1375 01:04:35,490 --> 01:04:37,230 S14: Richie. What? What the fuck did you just say to 1376 01:04:37,230 --> 01:04:39,090 S14: that girl? Carmen? Shut the fuck up and get me 1377 01:04:39,090 --> 01:04:40,100 S14: the fuck out of here, please. 1378 01:04:40,110 --> 01:04:41,970 S16: Oh, yeah. I'll get you the fuck out of there, Donna. 1379 01:04:42,420 --> 01:04:45,930 S14: The fuck did you just say? I. What the fuck 1380 01:04:45,930 --> 01:04:49,080 S14: did you just say? Nothing. Richie, what the. 1381 01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:52,440 S2: Fuck did you say? Yeah. Basically says, like, calls him 1382 01:04:52,440 --> 01:04:54,420 S2: his mother's name, and he's like, you're being like your mother. Like, 1383 01:04:54,420 --> 01:04:57,750 S2: you're doing. You're, like, self-sabotaging. Like she does. And there's 1384 01:04:57,750 --> 01:05:00,480 S2: obviously this thing in the Bizarro Family where they don't 1385 01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:02,940 S2: believe that. They're like, I don't know, worthy of love 1386 01:05:02,940 --> 01:05:06,540 S2: or something. And so, like, they just fucking self-sabotage and like, 1387 01:05:06,540 --> 01:05:08,190 S2: it happened to the mom. We saw it in Fish's 1388 01:05:08,190 --> 01:05:11,130 S2: like obviously his older brother kills himself and like, Carmy 1389 01:05:11,250 --> 01:05:13,380 S2: is very much like, I think obviously spent his life 1390 01:05:13,380 --> 01:05:15,540 S2: running away from them. He like went to Copenhagen. He 1391 01:05:15,540 --> 01:05:17,970 S2: doesn't want to be near it and probably because he 1392 01:05:17,970 --> 01:05:20,330 S2: can see himself in it. And then, you know, like, 1393 01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:22,980 S2: lo and behold, when when Richie says that it really, like, 1394 01:05:22,980 --> 01:05:25,590 S2: triggers him because he knows it's a bit true. But yeah, 1395 01:05:25,590 --> 01:05:28,200 S2: I do think like, you know, the season ends with 1396 01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:31,170 S2: Claire kind of walking off presumably, you know, is that 1397 01:05:31,170 --> 01:05:33,420 S2: is that her leaving him? Maybe. I do think like 1398 01:05:33,420 --> 01:05:35,100 S2: in the real world that you could probably fix that 1399 01:05:35,100 --> 01:05:36,780 S2: relationship with like one really quick phone call. 1400 01:05:36,780 --> 01:05:39,510 S1: That's another thing. It's like, oh, I just overheard a conversation, 1401 01:05:39,510 --> 01:05:41,790 S1: I'm walking away. It's like, Hey, man, like you're probably 1402 01:05:41,790 --> 01:05:43,470 S1: been trapped in this fridge for like, I was probably 1403 01:05:43,470 --> 01:05:44,880 S1: a bit stressed, like, let's have a chat. 1404 01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:46,200 S2: Yeah, like he would get out of the fridge, drive 1405 01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:47,610 S2: to the house and be like, Obviously I was like, 1406 01:05:47,610 --> 01:05:49,710 S2: fucking weird in there, but like, I love you as well. 1407 01:05:49,710 --> 01:05:50,550 S12: And like. But also. 1408 01:05:50,550 --> 01:05:52,680 S3: She's a doctor and I was worried about his condition. 1409 01:05:52,680 --> 01:05:54,480 S3: I thought maybe I was like, maybe he's going to 1410 01:05:54,480 --> 01:05:56,910 S3: get hypothermia and Dr. Claire is going to come and 1411 01:05:56,910 --> 01:05:58,140 S3: help out. But that. 1412 01:05:58,410 --> 01:05:58,800 S12: Obviously that. 1413 01:05:58,800 --> 01:06:00,930 S1: Would have been that would have been like a more 1414 01:06:00,930 --> 01:06:03,450 S1: like an Er, you know, sort of Grey's Anatomy. 1415 01:06:03,450 --> 01:06:05,820 S2: I am curious to get your guys thoughts on, on 1416 01:06:05,820 --> 01:06:08,580 S2: where like it very obviously sets up a third season 1417 01:06:08,580 --> 01:06:11,310 S2: because essentially you know the launch of the bear to 1418 01:06:11,310 --> 01:06:14,340 S2: family and friends was a success. Despite Carmy being in 1419 01:06:14,340 --> 01:06:16,710 S2: the fridge, they kind of pulled it off without him, 1420 01:06:16,710 --> 01:06:18,870 S2: which is great. And we leave all the characters in 1421 01:06:18,870 --> 01:06:22,710 S2: a different position. But Carmy seeing is, is like essentially 1422 01:06:22,710 --> 01:06:25,830 S2: he's become too soft and too much of a real 1423 01:06:26,190 --> 01:06:28,710 S2: like person. And if he wants to be the best 1424 01:06:28,710 --> 01:06:30,630 S2: and be who he was, then he needs to just 1425 01:06:30,630 --> 01:06:33,270 S2: like shut that off. So my prediction for season three 1426 01:06:33,270 --> 01:06:35,670 S2: is we will cut to the first episode. The bear 1427 01:06:35,670 --> 01:06:38,760 S2: will have like two Michelin stars and Carmy will be 1428 01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:42,120 S2: a full fucking Joel McHale and everyone will be miserable. 1429 01:06:42,330 --> 01:06:44,850 S1: That's interesting. I sort of have the opposite theory that 1430 01:06:44,850 --> 01:06:47,070 S1: I think will go to the third season and it'll 1431 01:06:47,100 --> 01:06:49,770 S1: be shut down like it will have been, like something 1432 01:06:49,770 --> 01:06:51,720 S1: will have gone wrong. And it's like, What the hell 1433 01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:54,000 S1: do we do now? But I think either way, they're 1434 01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:56,430 S1: pretty dramatic. Like we're not expecting this next season to 1435 01:06:56,430 --> 01:06:58,740 S1: start with. It's all going well. Like, I wonder what 1436 01:06:58,740 --> 01:06:59,970 S1: the next issue could be. 1437 01:06:59,970 --> 01:07:00,990 S3: No, I think that. 1438 01:07:01,210 --> 01:07:03,870 S12: There's like no season three canceled. Well, there. 1439 01:07:03,870 --> 01:07:06,690 S1: Might not be. The strike means it's probably not going 1440 01:07:06,690 --> 01:07:07,590 S1: to happen for a while. 1441 01:07:07,590 --> 01:07:11,370 S3: That's true. I think Carmy will be out out of 1442 01:07:11,370 --> 01:07:13,410 S3: the restaurant. Everyone else will be holding it up. He'll 1443 01:07:13,410 --> 01:07:17,730 S3: be down on his luck drinking, taking drugs, being self destructive. 1444 01:07:17,730 --> 01:07:20,220 S3: And then I think the restaurant will all gather together 1445 01:07:20,220 --> 01:07:23,490 S3: to cook carmy the meal of love that will remind 1446 01:07:23,490 --> 01:07:26,310 S3: him why he loves food, why he loves his family 1447 01:07:26,310 --> 01:07:28,950 S3: and friends, and will bring him back to the fold. 1448 01:07:28,980 --> 01:07:30,840 S1: I know you're saying that. You're saying that with contempt. 1449 01:07:30,840 --> 01:07:33,150 S1: I can tell in terms of what you what you 1450 01:07:33,150 --> 01:07:34,560 S1: think this show is. That's that. 1451 01:07:34,560 --> 01:07:35,670 S12: Right? It's very possible. 1452 01:07:36,180 --> 01:07:38,010 S2: I mean, this won't surprise anyone. I seriously think I'm 1453 01:07:38,010 --> 01:07:40,650 S2: right because like they kind of set it up and 1454 01:07:40,650 --> 01:07:43,800 S2: that that is the perfect like trajectory because he will 1455 01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:45,930 S2: go and do what he does so well and he 1456 01:07:45,930 --> 01:07:47,850 S2: will make the restaurant what they all want it to be, 1457 01:07:47,850 --> 01:07:50,669 S2: but really like they'll all be fucking miserable. Whereas right 1458 01:07:50,670 --> 01:07:52,530 S2: now it's a good restaurant. It seems to be a 1459 01:07:52,530 --> 01:07:54,540 S2: good restaurant and they're all pretty happy, but he needs 1460 01:07:54,540 --> 01:07:56,730 S2: it to be the fucking best and it'll be like 1461 01:07:56,730 --> 01:07:59,280 S2: it'll get the hats and he'll do. He'll just like 1462 01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:01,590 S2: take over. It'll be like the fucking commie show, but 1463 01:08:01,590 --> 01:08:03,120 S2: everyone will hate it. And then it's like, What's the 1464 01:08:03,120 --> 01:08:05,220 S2: point of being here and what is purpose, guys? 1465 01:08:05,910 --> 01:08:07,620 S3: Well, I'm going to bring you that stove book. 1466 01:08:07,620 --> 01:08:07,800 S12: On. 1467 01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:09,150 S2: Chekhov that wants. 1468 01:08:09,750 --> 01:08:12,600 S1: I think we're actually at risk of breaking the strike 1469 01:08:12,600 --> 01:08:15,180 S1: rules by writing the show. So we probably should, like, 1470 01:08:15,480 --> 01:08:19,620 S1: put a pin in it. Guys, thanks for thanks for 1471 01:08:19,620 --> 01:08:22,890 S1: the conversation. Thanks for letting me emote slightly about the 1472 01:08:22,890 --> 01:08:25,200 S1: Logies and thanks for all of your thoughts on the bill. 1473 01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:27,269 S1: It was really fun to watch that one with. You 1474 01:08:27,300 --> 01:08:29,640 S1: got a lot of really nice comments from listeners saying 1475 01:08:29,650 --> 01:08:31,620 S1: I really reminded me of when you guys are doing 1476 01:08:31,620 --> 01:08:34,559 S1: succession things, it is really hard to find a show 1477 01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:36,839 S1: that everyone is watching and wants to talk about and 1478 01:08:36,840 --> 01:08:40,410 S1: also has enough in there to unpack. If anyone's watching 1479 01:08:40,410 --> 01:08:42,630 S1: stuff that you think we should be getting into, please 1480 01:08:42,630 --> 01:08:44,820 S1: let us know. There's a little bit of a quiet 1481 01:08:44,820 --> 01:08:46,830 S1: period coming up for TV, but we'll find things to 1482 01:08:46,830 --> 01:08:49,439 S1: talk about. Thomas Smell, Thanks again. 1483 01:08:49,650 --> 01:08:51,000 S3: Thank you. We're going to get you a gold glow. 1484 01:08:51,020 --> 01:08:52,260 S2: You let it rip. 1485 01:08:56,479 --> 01:08:59,090 S1: This episode of The Drop was produced by Kai Wong. 1486 01:08:59,479 --> 01:09:02,240 S1: If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop, 1487 01:09:02,240 --> 01:09:04,979 S1: make sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app. 1488 01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:07,490 S1: Leave us a review or better yet, share it with 1489 01:09:07,490 --> 01:09:10,550 S1: a friend. I'm Osman Farooqui. See you next week.