S1: Virginia Giuffre was fearless in taking down some of the
S1: world's most powerful people as Jeffrey Epstein's most prominent victim.
S1: She helped expose his crimes and hold his friends to account,
S1: including the man formerly known as Prince Andrew. But despite
S1: her heroic battle in the most notorious sex trafficking case
S1: of the 21st century, few know about one of her
S1: toughest fights. It was one she fought privately at home
S1: in Australia. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris, and you're listening to
S1: Morning Edition. From The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald today,
S1: Good Weekend magazine's senior writer Melissa Fyfe and a today
S1: reporter Carla Hildebrandt on their four part investigative podcast Virginia.
S1: And just a warning. This episode contains mentions of suicide,
S1: domestic violence, and other content that may be distressing to listeners.
S1: Mel and Carla, welcome to the podcast.
S2: Hi, Sam. Hi, Sam.
S1: I'm so looking forward to speaking to you because many people,
S1: when they think of the late Virginia Giuffre, they think
S1: of that infamous picture of her about the age of
S1: 17 with Prince Andrew. He's got his arm around her waist.
S1: That's what comes to mind for many. The two were
S1: introduced by Jeffrey Epstein, but Mel, is that what initially
S1: drew you to her story or was it something else?
S3: Actually, the thing that I was first attracted to was
S3: the fact that there had been this battle happening over
S3: her estate and that had been going through the WA
S3: Supreme Court. And I thought that was really interesting. And
S3: one of our editors said, well, why don't you look
S3: into her Australian life? Because people don't realize that Virginia
S3: lived half of her life in Australia after marrying an
S3: Australian man. So when I started to look into it,
S3: that was the basis. But then I kind of realized
S3: very quickly that Virginia had been the subject of a
S3: violent restraining order in Perth, and she had had her
S3: two children taken away. And that is not on you know,
S3: it's not unheard of for a mother to have her
S3: children taken away. But it's quite unusual. And I was thinking, well,
S3: what are those circumstances? How did it get to that?
S3: And then I knew that I would need some help
S3: with this. So I reached out to Carla, who's a
S3: fantastic reporter at WA today, and Carla's been doing a
S3: lot of the on the ground reporting over there.
S1: And Carla, you know, as you've said in the feature
S1: that you wrote with Melissa and also in the podcast
S1: that you both have made the story, it's not about
S1: Jeffrey Epstein or the Epstein files, but a battle that
S1: Virginia was fighting in private for much of her life. So, Carla,
S1: tell us a bit about that.
S4: Yeah. So Virginia credits one man with her escape from Epstein,
S4: and that's Robbie Jeffrey. She met Robbie in Thailand, and
S4: that's when she had just left Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell.
S4: So she goes to Thailand, and when she's there, she
S4: meets Robbie, who's doing a martial arts course at the time.
S4: And within ten days they are married. And he's, you know,
S4: he's seen as the savior, the person who saved her
S4: from that horrible life with Epstein.
S5: I met this amazing person. And long story short, we
S5: got married in a Buddhist temple in Chiang Mai, and
S5: he took me home to move to Australia, where Australia
S5: became my home.
S4: So she moves back to Australia with him. And so
S4: what Mel and I were looking into was, were the
S4: instances of domestic violence throughout their relationship. So our earliest
S4: understanding of domestic abuse is around 2010. And then later
S4: on we found evidence that she was assaulted. We actually
S4: found the documents that came up in the Epstein files
S4: of all places in 2015 in Colorado. Then we end
S4: up examining the last four months of her life after
S4: another alleged assault in Perth.
S1: Well, Mel, this is what I wanted to go to
S1: you to ask because you both have chosen to investigate,
S1: in particular, these last four months of Virginia's life. Virginia,
S1: as many of us know, tragically took her own life
S1: in April last year. So why? Why are those months
S1: of her life so important?
S3: I think what we see with Virginia's last four months
S3: is a woman that falls outside the legal systems and
S3: also other systems. Really, after this alleged incident in January
S3: the 9th, 2025, where both she and Robbie allege violence.
S3: She basically is hotel hopping and in fear of him,
S3: she says. And the police investigate, but they don't press
S3: any charges, despite the fact that. And we've published these
S3: in the good weekend. Peace. She took many photos of
S3: her injuries at the time, and part of our investigation
S3: was trying to understand why that was why, why nothing
S3: eventuated from that particular alleged assault. But the second thing,
S3: which was really interesting, going back to this question of
S3: why Virginia lost her children, is that after this incident
S3: in January, where Robbie Giuffre was given a 72 hour
S3: police restraining order, so he was the one that was
S3: told to go away from Virginia as soon as that expired. Within,
S3: you know, half a day, we think he was the
S3: one that went up to the Perth Magistrates Court and
S3: successfully applied for a temporary restraining order against Virginia, which
S3: was although interim, it was six months. And it named
S3: two of her youngest children as well as him. So
S3: she couldn't go home. She couldn't get any of her possessions.
S3: And then she couldn't at all, you know, talk to
S3: her children and contact Robbie. And that's a very serious thing. And,
S3: you know, of course, we know that these things are
S3: put in place for a good reason. There's a whole
S3: system in Australia and not just WA, but around Australia,
S3: where these interim orders are available to people who are
S3: really in emergency situations and they feel like they are
S3: unsafe and they need to be protected from a potentially
S3: violent partner. And part of the issue here that we
S3: discovered with Virginia was that the bar is set very
S3: low for these orders. You know, the evidence that you
S3: need is not like a normal court proceeding. And also
S3: you can get them held ex parte, which means that
S3: the other person doesn't even know or needs to be
S3: notified or attend that court hearing. And so they can
S3: be done very quickly and with a lower level of evidence.
S3: And now we spoke to many domestic violence experts who
S3: said that this is really good. This system is is
S3: good because women in particular, and they mostly are women
S3: need it. However, what these experts also said was that
S3: we are seeing rising rates of a thing that's called misidentification,
S3: which is where the victim gets misidentified as the perpetrator. Now,
S3: obviously in this situation, Robbie had every right to go
S3: to the court if he was felt in fear of Virginia. However,
S3: it did raise questions about what are the kind of
S3: things that magistrates need to look for when people are
S3: applying for these orders. And we've basically found that that
S3: was a real issue and that has a cascading effect.
S3: So once you're got that order against you and you're
S3: treated as the perpetrator, anything that you do from there
S3: on in life is made very difficult. And we saw
S3: that with Virginia in the last four months. She became
S3: very isolated, and there was very little she could do
S3: about that, because when she objected to the order, it
S3: was going to take her six months to actually come
S3: back into the court to hear that objection. And over
S3: these four months, we were able to piece together what
S3: she was doing through access to diaries, photos, text messages
S3: and a lot of exclusive access to her US based family.
S3: All of these things meant that we could reveal what
S3: really happened to Virginia in those last four months, before
S3: she sadly took her life on the 25th of April 2025.
S1: We'll be right back.
S3: Virginia Giuffre helped vanquish a prince and a millionaire.
S6: And I won't stop fighting. I will never be silenced.
S3: But one of her toughest battles was a very private one.
S7: It was the worst thing that could have happened to her.
S7: Her children were her life.
S3: Virginia, a podcast from the newsrooms of the age, the
S3: Sydney Morning Herald and WA today, out now.
S1: And so Carla and Mel, we've spoken about how there
S1: was domestic abuse that had occurred between Virginia Giuffre and
S1: her then husband, Robby Giuffre, in the lead up to
S1: her death. But let's just zero in on this critical moment.
S1: When a magistrate issued an interim restraining order against Virginia,
S1: which then prevented her from seeing two of her children.
S1: Is it the case that the magistrate and the police
S1: involved didn't know, or perhaps weren't told, that years earlier,
S1: Robby had been actually arrested for assaulting Virginia back in
S1: the US? And so Carla and Mel, we've spoken about
S1: how there was domestic abuse that had occurred between Virginia
S1: Giuffre and her then husband, Robby Giuffre, in the lead
S1: up to her death. But let's just zero in on
S1: this critical moment. When a magistrate issued an interim restraining
S1: order against Virginia, which prevented her from seeing two of
S1: her children. Is it the case that the magistrate and
S1: the police who were involved in this didn't know or
S1: weren't told that years earlier, Robby had been actually arrested
S1: for assaulting Virginia back in the US?
S4: Yeah. So he had been charged, but he had been
S4: charged in 2015 in Colorado. So we're not sure about
S4: the information sharing between Colorado and Australia.
S3: And the other complicating factor, Carla, of course, was that
S3: Virginia had suppressed that report herself. You know, when back
S3: in the day when she wanted to keep all of
S3: the secrets of her marriage, she had suppressed the report.
S3: So we're not sure whether even if the Australian police
S3: were trying to find it, whether they would have found it.
S1: And do we know why she was trying to keep
S1: the secrets about her marriage?
S4: We think maybe so they could enter and leave the US.
S4: But also it could have been to avoid. We thought
S4: it might have been, could have, could have been to
S4: avoid media attention as well.
S3: Yeah, definitely. She wanted to avoid media attention because she
S3: was gearing up in this battle against Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell,
S3: and she wanted to have no other distractions. I think
S3: she didn't want the media to be reporting on this
S3: part of her life that she didn't really want to
S3: have in the public, and she also wanted to protect
S3: her children, I think.
S1: And just a note here that Robbie Giuffre did issue
S1: a statement through his lawyer. So just tell us, what
S1: did he say?
S3: Basically, we put every allegation in the podcast and in
S3: the Good Weekend piece to Robbie and through his lawyers,
S3: he responded that Virginia had suffered significant mental health issues
S3: and an overreliance on prescription medication due to the pressure
S3: of being in the public eye. And he said, quote,
S3: this may have led to Virginia's change of perspective. He
S3: also had what we interpreted as a bit of a
S3: go at Virginia's US family, and he said that he
S3: was limited in responding to, quote, various unfounded allegations for
S3: legal reasons, because there is the ongoing estate case and
S3: that he and the children are just wanted to remember
S3: Virginia as a loving wife and mother.
S1: And Mel, I wanted to ask you something further. I mean,
S1: what does it say to you that someone, as public
S1: and high profile, as wealthy as Virginia, could be failed
S1: by so many of our systems?
S3: Well, the thing about the issue that we were talking
S3: about before, which is misidentification and also perhaps being on
S3: the wrong end of a police investigation, particularly misidentification, we
S3: know affects indigenous women particularly, and also women who come
S3: from more diverse backgrounds. So I think it really says
S3: something that someone like Virginia, who is a white woman.
S3: And also at the time, you have to remember Sam.
S3: She was very wealthy. Her estate is worth around 30
S3: million AUD. So she did not lack the funds for
S3: the fight. But still she found herself outside the system.
S3: So I think that speaks to the problems, the more
S3: systemic problems that we're looking at here.
S1: And, Carla, I just wanted to go to you because
S1: you've been interviewing Virginia's family for months. They've called for
S1: a police review, a public inquest, among other interventions. So
S1: what are they hoping comes from these investigations? Should they
S1: take place?
S4: So in June, the WA police announced an internal review
S4: into their dealings with Virginia. Um so we had written
S4: to them. What month was that. I don't know, earlier
S4: this year we had written to them asking for an
S4: internal investigation. Cole Blanche, the commissioner, got back to us
S4: and said, you put it to the Ombudsman. So then
S4: we didn't hear back. And then Virginia's family wrote to them,
S4: and then they didn't hear back. But then we heard
S4: some chitter chatter that there was going to be, you know,
S4: something was going to happen. And then in Parliament, he
S4: did confirm that they were doing this internal investigation. So
S4: they're going to review their own interactions with Virginia. But
S4: that doesn't cover her interactions in the courts or with
S4: other agencies, with her health providers, anything like that. So
S4: the families also requesting for an inquest into her death,
S4: a public inquest. So, you know, the inquest system in
S4: WA is different to other states as well. And there's
S4: not very many public inquests, especially into suicide. So that's
S4: a public inquest will be able to see exactly who
S4: interacted with her and what failings or what things could
S4: be changed for future victims. So that's what her family
S4: is calling for.
S3: We're also reporting today that the WA Ombudsman is going
S3: to be reviewing the police's interactions with Virginia as well.
S3: So that's a significant development.
S1: And a question for the both of you. I mean,
S1: what are you hoping that people will take away from
S1: both your podcast and the investigation as a whole?
S4: So I think one of the things that we, you know,
S4: we hope people take away, we were both really struck
S4: by Virginia's notes on domestic violence, particularly controlling behavior and
S4: those coercive control tendencies like controlling behavior, jealousy. She wrote
S4: so articulately and just incredible. Like she just put it
S4: so concisely about her experience into these notes, almost like
S4: she was writing to in the future, like advocate on
S4: this issue. Like it felt like she was writing like,
S4: you know, controlling behavior is abuse. Recognize warning signs. It
S4: was these things like that. She would be either telling
S4: someone else or, you know, talking about in the future.
S4: So it was just incredible.
S3: Yeah. She said we must challenge traditional notions that confuse
S3: love with control, and also that DV does not discriminate.
S3: And just to explain the notes, they were sort of
S3: diary notes, sort of like things that were written down
S3: in a kind of a notebook. We think that they
S3: were mostly from January, February, in those early months of
S3: 2025 after the separation, and they were given to us
S3: by Virginia's family in the US. And it really did
S3: seem that, like at the very sort of end of
S3: her life. This is a woman who had gone through
S3: child abuse, two lots of trafficking. I mean, even before
S3: Jeffrey Epstein, she was trafficked. And then this marriage, which
S3: had its difficulties as well as its highs. And here
S3: she was in the Perth wheat belt on her farm,
S3: just thinking about what a healthy relationship was. And we
S3: were really struck by that. It almost seemed like Carla said,
S3: like she was thinking about advocacy in that area. She
S3: was really engaged in what domestic violence kind of constitutes,
S3: and very much the coercive control debate that we see
S3: going on in Australia right now.
S1: Well, it's an absolutely heartbreaking story, but we're so lucky
S1: that we've had both of you reporting on it. So
S1: thank you so much, Mel and Carla for your time.
S4: Thanks, Sam.
S3: Thanks for having us, Sam.
S8: You can listen to all four.
S1: Episodes of the podcast, Virginia on your favorite podcast app,
S1: and make sure to check out Melissa Fyfe and Carla
S1: Hildebrandt's feature at the age.com.au and smh.com.au. In the meantime,
S1: here's a preview.
S3: Virginia Giuffre helped vanquish a prince and a millionaire.
S9: Prince Andrew's accuser Virginia Giuffre.
S10: One of the most prominent and vocal accusers of sex
S10: trafficker Jeffrey Epstein.
S11: Outspoken survivors of their abuse.
S6: I won't stop fighting. I will never be silenced until
S6: these people are brought to justice.
S3: But one of her toughest battles was a very private one.
S12: I was really shocked that she hadn't broken something in
S12: her face.
S13: You're going to go there to protect her? That's funny.
S13: I mean, hell, you're her biggest threat right now.
S4: In Australia, our systems failed her.
S7: It was the worst thing that could have happened to her.
S7: Her children were her life.
S14: I don't think any of us really understand what she
S14: carried every day.
S15: She was a fierce advocate for so long, and it
S15: shouldn't have been on her to be advocating for herself.
S4: Even in death, the conspiracies persisted.
S9: Virginia Giuffre. That she was involved in a serious crash,
S9: which has left her with just days to live.
S16: Where she writes, quote, I am making it publicly known
S16: that in no way, shape or form am I suicidal.
S17: The story just doesn't add up for me. I believe
S17: a shred of it at this point. I've seen too much.
S3: Virginia. A podcast from the newsrooms of the age, the
S3: Sydney Morning Herald and WA today out now.
S1: If you or anyone you know needs support, you can
S1: contact the National Sexual Assault Domestic and Family Violence Counselling
S1: Service on one 800 respect 1800 737 732. Lifeline on 1311114 or
S1: Beyondblue on 1300 224 636. Today's episode was produced by Josh towers.
S1: Our executive producer is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are
S1: overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like
S1: our show, follow the Morning Edition and leave a review
S1: for us on Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.