S1: Hey, I'm Osman Farooqui and this is the drop a
S1: culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age,
S1: where we dive into the latest in the world of
S1: pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Mel Schembri. Hello, Thomas. Mel,
S1: as you know, is out of action this week. He's away.
S1: He's in a remote location on the set of an
S1: exciting upcoming movie that we'll get to hear about down
S1: the track, but it's just you and I holding it
S1: down together. How are you doing? How are you feeling
S1: about that?
S2: I'm doing good, I believe. Yesterday he gave me an update.
S2: He said he was going to be swimming with crocodiles,
S2: which I thought didn't sound safe.
S1: He texted me that as well. We sort of probably
S1: giving away the location he is at by saying that, um,
S1: and I don't know if he meant. Because then we
S1: got a video from him this morning where he had,
S1: you know, when you go on those trips on a
S1: boat and they put the meat on a stick, I
S1: don't think he's getting in that river, is he? He's
S1: not swimming with the croc.
S2: Had questions. I said, are you confused? Do you mean
S2: you're going swimming with dolphins? But, um, he seemed adamant
S2: that he was going to be with the crocodiles. Uh.
S1: Well, then this might be, uh, we might never have
S1: him back on the podcast. This could be the future
S1: of the podcast, uh, after Thomas is eaten by a croc.
S2: But what a way to go. If anyone's going to
S2: go out in such a big way, it's going to
S2: be Thomas Mitchell.
S1: You were telling me just before we, uh, started recording that, um,
S1: you're a big fan of a surprising show you've been watching.
S1: No one that I would have expected from you. Jeremy
S1: Clarkson's latest series, Clarkson's Farm. You just love the fact
S1: that he's striking a blow against woke culture.
S2: Look, I have to. And I caveat this with I
S2: don't read his column. I didn't watch Top Gear. I'm
S2: not super across Jeremy Clarkson public phenomenon. I've just come
S2: to him really in this show. And I've always liked
S2: shows about farming. Like I like River cottage as well,
S2: and all it is is watching a man who can't
S2: farm try to farm. And I actually think it's doing
S2: quite good public service, like it is shining a light
S2: on on the plight of farmers and how difficult an
S2: industry it is. And the importance of it. And I
S2: think he actually comes across quite well. And I mean,
S2: I guess if you're kind of more aware of his
S2: persona beyond the farm, it might be harder to like him.
S2: But I find him quite, quite charismatic and fun to watch.
S2: And it's actually all the supporting cast in it as
S2: well is really good. Um, all the locals who who feature.
S2: Do you watch it?
S1: No, I've never seen it. But I do hear people
S1: of all kinds of backgrounds and views enjoy this show.
S1: I kind of willing to take your word for it.
S1: I did like Top Gear, like my dad loved Top Gear,
S1: so we watched a lot of Top Gear when I
S1: was growing up, and I always found him, you know,
S1: a little bit like acerbic and a bit annoying, but
S1: he's pretty good, like TV presence, and I just don't
S1: read his columns in, you know, the Times or the
S1: Daily Mail, whatever he writes where he just sort of
S1: has a go at issues of the day. So yeah,
S1: if I can just like put that to the side
S1: and just watch this man, as you say, try to
S1: what is he farming? He's like a hobby farm. Or
S1: is this like a large scale agricultural project?
S2: Yeah, large scale agriculture. Oh, really?
S1: It's like a big farm he's doing.
S2: Yeah, yeah. There are all kinds of, um, crops. They.
S2: They're having problems with their rape seeds. Don't plant those
S2: very temperamental barley. Wheat. They've got pigs. I've learned so
S2: much about pigs, gestations and pregnancies like, you know, I
S2: feel like a farmer myself now. Um, yeah. So it's
S2: all kinds of things. He's growing mushrooms.
S1: Should we just scrap the pod and just talk about
S1: this and what you've learnt from farming?
S2: Yeah, I think that's it. I know how to make cider.
S2: How you have to make sure you ferment it well
S2: so the bottles don't explode. I mean, there's a lot
S2: to take away from it.
S1: Uh, there's another thing I need to ask you about.
S1: I hear a rumor, Mel, that you're now maybe, like,
S1: one step removed from the biggest pop star in the
S1: history of the world, Taylor Swift. Is that true?
S2: Yeah, I think that is fair to say that I
S2: might be namechecked in some of their, um, in some
S2: of her songs in the future. Um, no. This was
S2: I interviewed Miranda July, who's a artist and author. Do
S2: you know much about her?
S1: Uh, I'm familiar with some of the things she's directed,
S1: but I'm like, probably not, you know, as deep in
S1: the Miranda July universe as as others.
S2: Yeah, I reckon this book, her new one, it's called
S2: All Fours, is going to be a huge hit. That's
S2: why I was interviewing her. I'd only read her book.
S2: The first bad man. That's how I came to her.
S2: I read that a while ago. And then I went
S2: back and watched the films Kajillionaire Me and You and
S2: Everyone We Know, which was quite a big hit. Her debut. Um,
S2: so I was talking to her for this book. Turns
S2: out she's really good friends with Margaret Qualley, who is
S2: the wife of Jack Antonoff, who is, as we know,
S2: the super producer of Taylor. And they've had lots of
S2: brushes together. And Miranda July is kind of part of
S2: their circle and went to Jack Antonoff and Margaret's wedding
S2: and said that Taylor Swift kind of ruined it with
S2: all the, um, with all the, uh, publicity that came
S2: along with that.
S1: Well, that gives us, um, for firstly, very cool that
S1: you interviewed Miranda July. That's exciting. Secondly, that gives us
S1: another thing we have in common, because I also know
S1: someone who attended that wedding and is friends with Margaret Qualley.
S1: So there you go. There's basically the two of us
S1: should have been there.
S2: Who do you know?
S1: Uh, Geraldine Viswanathan, who is an Australian actress who was
S1: most recently in Drive Away Dolls, the, uh, Ethan Coen
S1: film alongside Mark Ruffalo. She also was at that wedding,
S1: and she told me a really funny story about Taylor Swift,
S1: kind of recognizing her and them having a conversation about
S1: Taylor Swift's handbag. And I really tried to get her
S1: on the pod to talk about driveway dolls and get
S1: her to tell us that story. And just the timing
S1: didn't work out because she was in LA. And then
S1: she went on like Kimmel and told that story on Kimmel,
S1: and I'm like, damn, that's a story worthy of American
S1: late night TV. And we could have had it on
S1: this pod first.
S2: Damn, she really tested you first. I actually had a
S2: bit of confusion with Miranda July about the wedding, because
S2: I said to her, I didn't see you there, and
S2: I meant I didn't see you in the paparazzi pictures,
S2: but I think she thought I was also potentially there.
S2: And I was trying to say, like, I was there,
S2: but I didn't see you there. So I had did
S2: she say like, what.
S1: Were you doing there? How did you get there?
S2: I think well, then she thought maybe I was questioning
S2: the veracity of her account because she was like, no, no,
S2: I was, I was there, I guess I just wasn't.
S1: You were saying you were there and she wasn't there.
S2: Yeah, yeah. So I had to clarify that. No, I
S2: did not attend. I just didn't see her in any pictures,
S2: which she was like, why would I be in them?
S1: That is really funny. I also realize one of my
S1: friends has this gag about podcasts, where every podcast in
S1: the history of the world starts as a podcast about
S1: a particular thing, whether that's TV or film or whatever,
S1: and then eventually just becomes like people talking about what
S1: they've been up to and what their thoughts are like
S1: ten minutes into this podcast and we've talked about you
S1: just watching Clarkson's Farm and us chatting to, you know,
S1: friends or work people about weddings they attended months ago. Very, very.
S2: Good. I mean, I'm okay with that. We have a
S2: lot to catch up on.
S1: I have another I have actually the corollary to that
S1: theory from, uh, from my friend. I don't know if
S1: you saw this clip, uh, Donald Trump was speaking at
S1: a rally in new Jersey last week, and he kind
S1: of went off script and just started talking about the
S1: film The Silence of the lambs, featuring Anthony Hopkins. You
S1: across this, this thing?
S2: I didn't see it.
S1: What happened? The clip that sort of went viral. He
S1: just kind of out of nowhere, just started saying, you know,
S1: silence of the lambs. Do you guys know about this movie?
S1: It's a great film starring the late, great Hannibal Lecter.
S3: Silence of the lamb. Has anyone ever seen A silence
S3: of the lambs? The late, great Hannibal Lecter is a
S3: wonderful man. He oftentimes would have a friend for dinner.
S3: Remember the last scene? Excuse me. I'm about to have
S3: a friend for dinner. Is this poor doctor walked by?
S3: I'm about to have a friend for dinner.
S1: And so to me, this is the reverse of the
S1: theory that every film podcast just becomes mates hanging out
S1: and talking shit. Donald Trump is morphing into a film podcaster.
S1: He is just going off piste and talking about these
S1: random movies that won a lot of Academy Awards in
S1: the early 90s. It's kind of confusing because Hannibal Lecter
S1: or Anthony Hopkins, the actor who played him, they're neither late.
S1: I mean, they're definitely not late. They're both still alive. Well,
S1: in the in the Red Dragon universe, Hannibal Lecter is alive.
S1: Anthony Hopkins is certainly alive. And I would know if
S1: I don't know if I would call one of the
S1: most famous cannibals in fiction. Great, either. Um, I strongly
S1: encourage you to seek out this clip. There's allegedly 80,000
S1: people in this stadium where he's talking about this. It's
S1: very funny.
S2: It's amazing. And also, like, does it surprise me that
S2: that's his one of his favorite films or the film
S2: he references? Maybe not.
S1: It is a good film. You know, Jodie Foster, she's
S1: great in it as well.
S2: Yeah. When she gets the hose, puts the lotion on
S2: and gets the goes, I always think of that scene. Oh,
S2: that song that.
S1: Yeah, yeah, it gets the hose again. Yeah. Puts the lotion. Gosh,
S1: that's a throwback.
S2: What a moment.
S1: Hey, should we get into today's episode?
S2: I thought you were gonna say, should we get Trump
S2: on the show to chat more?
S1: Um, look, there's a few different things we wanted to
S1: cover on the show today. Baby reindeer, which we've spoken
S1: about a couple of times already. It's on track to
S1: become the most watched show in the history of Netflix,
S1: and perhaps one of the most controversial. Virtual shows on
S1: Netflix as well. We're going to look at its phenomenal response, why?
S1: It just keeps getting more and more viewers and some
S1: of the complicated questions the show's raised about the way
S1: real life stories are told in fictional forms, and the
S1: responsibility creators and audiences have when engaging with this kind
S1: of work. We're also going to talk about one of
S1: our favorite shows that we've watched recently, a show that
S1: we're both a little bit late to. Thomas actually has
S1: been hounding us to get onto this for a while,
S1: and we finally did. And we're going to talk about
S1: it while he's away. So sucked in. Thomas. Too bad. Um,
S1: but first, Mel. The federal budget was unveiled on Tuesday
S1: night and for everyone listening, switches off to go listen
S1: to Andrew Huberman or call her daddy or whatever podcasts
S1: normal people listen to, I promise we're only going to
S1: briefly discuss federal politics and what is in store for
S1: arts and culture in particular. Throughout my career as a journalist, Mel,
S1: I've generally had to cover the budget, either being like
S1: in the lock up or staying up late editing stories,
S1: working on podcasts. So explain what's going on. Who are
S1: the winners and losers? What is the budget narrative? What
S1: does this mean for the future of the country? Thankfully,
S1: in my current job, I do not have to spend
S1: budget night working. In fact, instead of even watching the
S1: Treasurer's speech, I was watching another show. That is going
S1: to be my recommendation on Impress Your Friends. I'll say
S1: more on that later, but did you watch any of
S1: the budget coverage?
S2: No, I didn't watch it. I did read all of
S2: our coverage. Went straight to that winners and losers infographic,
S2: which always amuses me. And then I did read, of course,
S2: Ross Gittins takeaways from it, which I think really allowed
S2: me to understand inflation and recession for once.
S1: Well, yeah, some of the winners and losers. I don't
S1: know if it was Alan or the ABC's one where
S1: they were like losers, sheep, farmers, winners, sheep. I don't
S1: really know what's going on there, but.
S2: It's so good.
S1: Happy for the sheep.
S2: Let me let me explain that to you, because I
S2: do understand that Jeremy has prepared me for this question. Um, no.
S2: So I didn't watch it, but I did kind of
S2: read the outlines. And then I was very keen to
S2: see if there was any, um, any support for arts
S2: and culture, for which there was not a lot. Yeah.
S1: So I went onto the actual budget government website. I
S1: went to Budget Paper two, I believe I went to
S1: budget measures outlined in expenditures, and I went to the
S1: whatever department that arts is in. It's sort of like infrastructure, defense, health, blah, blah, blah,
S1: everything under the sun. And then at the end you
S1: got art stacked on and there is like half a
S1: page of arts budget spending. Uh, it's not a lot,
S1: as you mentioned. And what is in there is kind
S1: of minimal in terms of the amount of money involved.
S1: But there's a couple of things I think worth mentioning.
S1: They touch on things that we talk about on this show.
S1: They touch on areas to do with the future of
S1: Australian arts and TV and film and all these kinds
S1: of things. Uh, our colleague at the paper, Linda Morris,
S1: has been reporting on the financial crisis. Really, that's been
S1: impacting Australia's art schools, places like Aftrs that train the
S1: next generation of people who make TV and film and screenwriters. Uh,
S1: there's also Nida, the National Institute of Dramatic Art, which
S1: trains up actors. They've not been doing very well financially
S1: over the last few years, but the government has stepped in.
S1: They've received $115 million boost. That's pretty exciting for the
S1: future of Australian arts education, isn't it? Yeah.
S2: That's huge. And like if we were going to do
S2: a breakdown of winners and losers for arts, they are
S2: a clear winner. They were kind of getting a lot
S2: of money from this budget. And it's increasing over the
S2: years quite substantially. And I think that's a brilliant thing
S2: because it's impossible to be an artist today. So I'm
S2: glad to see that we're at least attempting to nurture
S2: young talent at the schools. But then obviously we're going
S2: to have to make sure that there are jobs and
S2: supports once, once they enter the industry as professionals.
S1: Exactly, exactly. And that that's sort of the next, uh,
S1: part of that kind of pipeline. And there was a
S1: little bit there as well. There was an extra $14.5
S1: million to help produce more children's television shows. You know,
S1: it's like a Bluey. It's been a big Australian kids
S1: TV export. I would kind of like us to go
S1: back to that crazy era where we grew up, where
S1: it wasn't just kind of animated. We had these live action, scripted,
S1: wacky kids programs like Round the Twist and Ship to
S1: Shore that, you know, created and nurtured and incubated generation
S1: of Australian kind of talent and taught people how to
S1: write and direct and edit and do lighting. I don't know,
S1: 14.5 million is going to be enough to do that.
S1: I know we've talked before about these bigger policy questions
S1: around streaming quotas. How can the government get more out
S1: of the presence of Netflix and Disney and Amazon and
S1: these big companies to actually fund and make more Australian shows?
S1: Netflix obviously has had big success with Heartbreak High, but
S1: it's fair to say there's more to do across the board.
S1: How do you feel about that investment in kids television?
S1: I mean.
S2: As you say, it doesn't sound like a enough money
S2: to substantially change the dial. Obviously, what it does highlight
S2: is the federal government's priority in supporting that industry in
S2: particular and giving that industry a boost, which I think
S2: is commendable. But. I don't think it's anything that's going
S2: to really revolutionize the making of children's TV programs here.
S2: I mean, I was just thinking, wouldn't it be good,
S2: like back to the days of Nickelodeon, except without what
S2: we now know about Nickelodeon or all those kid shows
S2: we grew up in, it would be great to see
S2: them all. I think obviously Bluey has been, you know,
S2: shown the potential for that market not only here but abroad. So, um, yeah,
S2: I mean, I think there's, I think there's room for
S2: growth there. And this is a good sign for that industry.
S1: Yeah. And Bluey is certainly doing great in terms of
S1: representation of cattle dogs in suburban Brisbane. But you know,
S1: there's a lot, a lot more there to tap into.
S2: Oh my gosh. This is the farming episode. Everything comes
S2: back to the farm.
S1: The content farms that we toil in, you know, everything's
S1: about farming. Um, and then finally, I think the other
S1: thing just to to to touch on live music, which
S1: again we've spoken about again and again and just Australian
S1: music more generally facing serious challenges here, the government has
S1: extended a grant, this time worth nearly $9 million, to
S1: help support live music. That's money that can go to
S1: festivals and venues to help put on shows. And I
S1: guess similar to the kids TV cash injection, it's recognising
S1: that there are problems and it's putting some money into them.
S1: It just sort of feels like and maybe we're a
S1: bit maybe not. Biased is not the right word, but
S1: maybe more closely attuned to how severe these issues are,
S1: because our jobs day in, day out involved talking to people,
S1: making this kind of stuff, telling us about the challenges
S1: of trying to get Australian artists broken in this country, internationally,
S1: what it's like to do so in in an environment
S1: flooded by Spotify and YouTube, international companies have bought up
S1: and basically owned most of the live music scene here
S1: now and in TV land, the kinds of shows that
S1: used to just provide jobs and incomes to every person
S1: involved in the sector. They don't really exist anymore. People
S1: work on shows for like 3 to 6 months and
S1: then are left for that. Like this is a big
S1: fundamental transformation that has happened to the production of arts
S1: and culture in this country, and it just feels like
S1: it needs a very, very big wholesale thought through joined
S1: up response that isn't quite there yet. And I'm not
S1: trying to say that the government won't do that in
S1: the future. They've got these reviews, they've got recommendations coming
S1: out about things like streaming. But at this point in time,
S1: it feels like this budget is a little bit more
S1: acknowledging there are problems and helping a little bit, but
S1: not really tackling it wholesale. Is that fair to say?
S2: Yeah, I think that's fair. And like the cost of
S2: living crisis is obviously really affecting live music venues here.
S2: I think some of the all arts organisations are struggling,
S2: but I think some of those with the older subscriber
S2: bases are a bit more insulated, mainly because their demographic
S2: do still have discretionary income. But a lot of young
S2: people go to live music and live music festivals, and
S2: that is kind of the first thing they will cut
S2: off their list when they're trying to save money. So
S2: I do think that that industry in particular needs a
S2: really helping hand. And as we've seen with things like
S2: splendour being cancelled, it is kind of crumbling in many places.
S1: Yeah, really important point, I think before we get into
S1: Baby Reindeer and the other TV things, we wanted to
S1: discuss a couple of news things I wanted to run
S1: through with you. Let's start in the world of music.
S1: So last week when we were discussing Drake and Kendrick's beef,
S1: I throw out a prediction that Kendrick's not like us,
S1: which is considered, I think, both the catchiest song and
S1: probably most triumphant song in this beef. Well, sort of
S1: the one that just, like, sealed the deal that he'd won,
S1: predicted that that could go to number one on the
S1: Billboard charts. Guess what, Mel? It debuted at number one
S1: on the Billboard charts this week.
S2: Wow. Taylor Swift, she's down bad.
S1: She I mean, she is struggling. She is struggling. I'm
S1: not that surprised. This song went ballistic. I personally have
S1: played it like 3 to 400 times a day since
S1: it came out, and actually four of the top ten
S1: songs on the Billboard charts this week are Drake and
S1: Kendrick diss tracks. Taylor Swift has gone from number one.
S1: Her song fortnight with Post Malone all the way down
S1: to number four. Hip hop's back, baby.
S2: Wow. Okay, here's my hot take on this. Yes. Do
S2: you think that because actually Taylor Swift is a bit
S2: of a part of their beef, right. Like, oh, that's true.
S2: Singing about Taylor Swift. One of the songs is called
S2: Tailor Made. They're kind of fighting over Who's better Bros
S2: with Taylor, and they're using Taylor to diss each other
S2: about their record release dates. Are the Swifties sending them up?
S1: Okay, so immediately, man, that is no. And secondly, in
S1: my response to that is, I can't believe you're trying
S1: to make this about Taylor Swift. But but but to
S1: your credit, yeah, that is the that is, I guess,
S1: the testament to how pervasive Taylor Swift is in our
S1: modern era of culture. She has worked with Drake in
S1: ads before for like, Apple Music. Kendrick featured on her song.
S1: You talked about Jack Antonoff earlier, her main producer. He
S1: produced 616 and an A, one of the tracks from Kendrick,
S1: you can't escape the Taylor verse even when you think you've.
S1: The tale of us by getting into the rap world.
S1: So look, begrudgingly, I might have to hand you that
S1: one a little bit.
S2: I am surprised that I thought. I thought maybe we
S2: would see 1 or 2 songs up there. I am
S2: surprised by how many, mainly because I thought people would
S2: be reading about the feud, but I didn't think as
S2: many people would be actively seeking out the songs and
S2: then listening to them a lot, particularly as it went
S2: on and on. So yeah, I was kind of surprised.
S1: I think that's what makes this beef quite unique in
S1: the history of beefs is just the availability of music.
S1: Now in the rapid fire way they're being released. Some
S1: of these songs have got over 100 million streams on Spotify,
S1: in YouTube, and it's so easy now to go from
S1: listening to one to then listening to the other, to
S1: listening to the one that's response to that one. It's really,
S1: really interesting. I don't think they're going to last in
S1: the charts that long. I think this captured the pier
S1: where everyone was really, really, really engaged. I think it
S1: also says something about how a lot of people just
S1: did not fuck with the tortured poets department. Taylor's songs
S1: tend to stick around for a bit, but the fact
S1: that she's just got one fortnight clinging on and that
S1: sort of slipping away says something about the, I guess,
S1: how how largely that album is going to loom in
S1: pop culture. It doesn't seem very largely.
S2: And did Macklemore ride this wave all the way to
S2: the top to.
S1: Macklemore has not, I don't think I don't think that
S1: song was released on streaming platforms. It might have just
S1: made it onto YouTube, but there seems to be some
S1: issue there with where you can listen to it. Most
S1: of those listeners seem to be happening on his Instagram,
S1: which I don't believe I could be wrong. I don't
S1: believe is, uh, captured when it comes to Billboard chart rankings.
S2: Yeah, okay. Misty's mark.
S1: He is in Australia right now. He's playing a bunch
S1: of sold out shows. He just, uh, came from Sydney
S1: where he popped in to the, uh, Sydney, uh, pro-Palestine encampments. Uh,
S1: it's obviously he's associated with that campaign now after releasing
S1: the protest song last week and he's in Melbourne. In fact,
S1: I'm down to go see him at Rod Laver Arena
S1: tonight playing a bunch of sold out shows there, which
S1: will be, uh, fun to check out. Um, Mel, there's
S1: one other music thing I wanted to touch on, uh,
S1: when Beyonce released her album that we spoke about earlier
S1: this year, one of the goals, she was quite direct, uh,
S1: of that project was to try and reclaim the black
S1: history of country music. She collaborated with a bunch of
S1: black country artists, including Virginia artist Shaboozey. He was featured
S1: on Spaghetti and Sweet Honey Bacon off her album Cowboy
S1: Carter or Beyonce. And she made history this week for
S1: the first time ever, ever, in the history of the
S1: United States of America, two black country songs have gone
S1: number one consecutively on the country charts. That happened when
S1: Beyonce's Texas Hold'em was replaced this week by Showbiz's latest single,
S1: a bar song.
UU: Summer Pull Me Up, a double shot of whiskey named
UU: on me. Daniel's got a history. There's a party downtown
UU: near fifth Street. Everybody at the bar get tipsy.
S1: It's a bar song in brackets. Tipsy is an interpolation
S1: of rapid J. Korn's 2004 track tipsy. Do you remember
S1: that track from The club? Yeah I do.
UU: Everybody in the club insists that everybody in the club
UU: getting tipsy.
S1: Jaquan kind of like a one hit wonder, but that
S1: song was very, very, very popular. Uh, features in the
S1: soundtracks of a bunch of movies from that time as well.
S1: Jaquan is from Missouri, so there is like a nice
S1: southern sort of crossover there as well. I really like
S1: this song, a bar song. It feels like very fun,
S1: modern like, like country that is resonating with people for
S1: a reason. It's nice to see Shaboozey throw some respect
S1: to Jaquan to leverage the Beyonce collab into doing this.
S1: This is a pretty big moment for music, I guess
S1: is Beyonce said, I want to do this and she
S1: seemingly has. That's a pretty strong testament to her power.
S2: Yeah. It's huge. Um, it's a great song and I do,
S2: I think when you know, not that long ago when
S2: we were sitting here talking about all of Thomas Mitchell's
S2: favorite artists, Luke Combs, Morgan Wallen, you know, we were
S2: talking about how it was still a very male white
S2: area and how fantastic to see people of color, male, female,
S2: kind of on the top of that list. And I
S2: really I'm really interested to see where country goes and
S2: how these sounds keep being interpolated and made anew and changed.
S2: So I think this is great and pretty exciting. And
S2: I will say, like, I think that people get deterred
S2: when they think of it as Beyonce's country album. And people,
S2: I think people just have this image of white and stale,
S2: the country, and it's just not that anymore. And Waxahatchee,
S2: when we were talking about her, kind of proved that
S2: point as well. But I would say give these musicians
S2: a chance. Don't be deterred by this country label, because
S2: it doesn't really mean what it once meant.
S1: Absolutely, absolutely. And like there is we talked about it
S1: on our episode discussing that album, such a long history
S1: of black artists in the country genre. But this current
S1: phase of. Really significant chart success and conversations around who
S1: gets to be counted as country. You can sort of
S1: pin back to Lil NAS X, Old Town Road, and
S1: the fact that that forced this conversation, that's a queer
S1: black rapper forcing his way into the country charts, then
S1: Beyonce bringing it all together. Now Shaboozey doing this. It's
S1: kind of wild that it's not even in our lifetime.
S1: In like the last 6 or 7 years, there has
S1: been this massive shift in what has been one of
S1: the most white and generally considered conservative genres to have
S1: ever existed. It's really, really interesting to see unfold.
S2: Yeah, and I kind of love it that, um, because
S2: it was that Beyonce song. Was it daddy.
S1: Lessons?
S2: Yeah, yeah. I kind of love the idea that all
S2: of this is motivated by the revenge of that not
S2: being able to be on the country list. I mean.
S1: Yeah, Cowboy Carter kind of her diss track at the
S1: entire country genre. And it's working.
S2: Yeah. So good.
S1: Let's get into baby reindeer.
S4: You say this woman stalking you?
S5: Yeah, like six months, maybe.
S4: Why did it take you so long to report it?
S4: I think she needs help.
S5: She comes to my work, my house. She sends me emails, like,
S5: all the time.
S4: Really threatening towards you. I wouldn't say that's particularly threatening.
S6: There's a reason you're keeping her around, and maybe it's
S6: what she gives you.
S7: But really manly hands, haven't you?
S1: A quick recap for anyone who hasn't yet seen the show,
S1: but it's been number one on Netflix in Australia and
S1: around the world for a number of weeks now. So
S1: I'm assuming most people listening to this have seen it.
S1: The show came out of nowhere. It blew up on Netflix.
S1: Comedian Richard Gadd based this show that he wrote and
S1: stars in on his own real experience of being stalked
S1: by a woman. The show looks at that, how he
S1: handled it, as well as the broader issue of assault
S1: and trauma. It sparked an enormous amount of conversation for
S1: a few different reasons. Every episode of the show opens
S1: with Netflix kind of caption saying that this is based
S1: on a true story. Gadd has said that it's based
S1: on things that happened to him. It's about real people,
S1: and a lot of the debate about the show has
S1: been around how much detail was provided about the characters
S1: in the show, how easy it was for some people
S1: online to seemingly find and identify who these characters are
S1: based on. In some instances, they seem to have identified
S1: the wrong person, but the conversation has become so much
S1: bigger than just what you see in the six episodes
S1: on Netflix and sparked really, really fascinating debate around the
S1: responsibility of Richard Gadd in making the show, whether he
S1: should have changed details to make it harder for people
S1: to find them, the culpability of audiences in wanting to
S1: find these people and then sort of holding them, pointing
S1: at them and sending them death threats in some instances.
S1: Netflix is responsibility in making a show based on not
S1: just a comedian's real life trauma, but perhaps their responsibility
S1: in making sure enough details would change to avoid the situation.
S1: There's a lot to talk about. I think this has
S1: become the big TV controversy of the year, if not
S1: the last couple of years, but I wanted to start
S1: by asking you, did you see the interview with the
S1: person who's being dubbed the real life Martha? Martha is
S1: the stalker in the show. The woman is called Fiona Harvey. Uh,
S1: that's who has been identified, and she's certainly self-identified herself
S1: as the person Martha is based on. Did you see
S1: her interview with Piers Morgan this week?
S2: Oh, man, I saw it. As much as you can
S2: see it when you have, like, your hands over your
S2: eyes as you're watching something, it was like I found
S2: it quite hard to to watch. And I kept thinking,
S2: you know how in Harry Potter there are those like
S2: paintings and the subjects of the painting every so often,
S2: like leap out of their frame into, like, you know,
S2: into the real world and into different situations. It was
S2: just like watching this, like, fictional thing and real life
S2: kind of become completely intermingled. And even on the screen
S2: when they were like cutting together Fiona, Harvey and Martha scenes,
S2: it was like just quite an odd experience to watch.
S2: And the whole time I kept thinking, well, this is
S2: the Netflix sequel to Baby Reindeer, isn't it? That we're
S2: seeing this would be the second season?
S1: Oh my God, totally, totally. It could have been a
S1: scene from a show.
S2: Yeah, yeah, totally. Gad gad being a liar, the collapse
S2: of the career. And it also just feels like such
S2: a Martha and Donny thing to to get embroiled in.
S2: I found it quite difficult to watch. What did you think?
S1: No, I completely agree. And I guess, like, you know,
S1: Piers Morgan isn't necessarily who I go to when I
S1: think about journalistic ethics in talking about this. You know,
S1: she was paid for her interview. She's now said she
S1: wasn't paid enough and she wants like £1 million. I
S1: think she was paid like £250. And Piers Morgan says, oh,
S1: but we also paid for her to get a haircut
S1: and we gave her a nice car to and from
S1: the studio. So there is a whole strange element around
S1: the ethics of chequebook journalism as well. But, you know,
S1: this person clearly has various issues, it's fair to say,
S1: and sort of mining them for content in a in
S1: a Piers Morgan YouTube show didn't really feel like great.
S1: It's worth pointing out that she she denies some of
S1: the specifics of what her character Martha is said to
S1: have done. She says I didn't stalk him. I didn't
S1: interact with him for as long as the show suggests.
S1: I did email him and tweet him, but only a
S1: handful of times, she says. And this is a really
S1: crucial one. The show says Martha was like sentenced for
S1: committing a crime around stalking. She says that never happened
S1: to her, so there's a lot there. Given that the
S1: show is explicit in saying that this is based on
S1: a true story, Gad says that he changed details to
S1: make it harder for people to find out who these
S1: characters were based on. He also said right from the start,
S1: he didn't want people to do that, but. A lot
S1: of people have made the point and I kind of
S1: agree with it. He didn't change that many details. People
S1: found Fiona Harvey because she, like Martha, is an older
S1: Scottish woman. She looks very similar to the character. She's
S1: also a lawyer. She has been previously accused of harassing
S1: other people and stalking them. She frequented the bar where
S1: Gad used to work. She visited him at one of
S1: his comedy shows, and people found tweets that she'd made
S1: that were very, very similar to lines of dialogue that
S1: the character was given in the show. So leaving aside
S1: the weirdness of the Morgan interview, which I just don't
S1: really think reflects well on anyone involved, do you think
S1: Gad changed enough on this one?
S2: Oh, it's a really tough one. And it's a really
S2: interesting one because I'm I mean, art has often been
S2: based on real life experiences, right? And often people have
S2: played a guessing game about who an artist's work is
S2: about in any form. But I guess what's different here
S2: is the reach and scale of Netflix and the development
S2: of social media, and the kind of armchair detectives that
S2: that have spawned. I'm hesitant to like, say that Gad
S2: needed to change more because part of what people resonated
S2: with was, I guess, what felt like the emotional honesty
S2: of this, and that is why it was so powerful. Obviously,
S2: him playing himself has added to all of that, but
S2: at the same time, I obviously recognize that art has
S2: real life consequences, so I'm not entirely sure what the
S2: solution here is, but I know a lot of people
S2: were talking about whether Netflix kind of did enough, and
S2: Gad has obviously spoken out a lot, saying that they've
S2: gone to great lengths to disguise her. I do find
S2: it hard to think that Netflix wouldn't have covered themselves
S2: legally on this, because obviously in that interview, um, Fiona
S2: Harvey was talking about potentially suing Netflix, but I do
S2: find it hard to think that they wouldn't have done
S2: their due diligence in terms of the legal side of this,
S2: but where the boundary is between recognizing someone and not
S2: recognizing someone, I don't know if there is a clear
S2: cut answer to that. I think it's a hard one.
S1: It's a really good point, and there's a lot of
S1: different like facets to that specific question as well. So
S1: Netflix in Europe is headquartered in the Netherlands, which means
S1: that it isn't subject at the moment to the UK
S1: kind of media regulatory system. And there's been some conversation
S1: from critics and commentators in the UK that the BBC
S1: couldn't have gotten away with something like this. And in fact,
S1: there is legislation currently in the UK Parliament to try
S1: to bring Netflix within its media regulatory framework. So people
S1: like Fiona Harvey could say, hey, I don't like the
S1: way that I was represented. Can I get some compensation
S1: or do you have to change stuff for it? That's
S1: like an ongoing issue. Netflix. It's also worth pointing out,
S1: like has been in hot water for things around this before, uh,
S1: when they released Monster The Jeffrey Dahmer Story about Jeffrey Dahmer,
S1: they were criticized for making that show without the consent
S1: of victims families. I think that was less a legal
S1: issue and more a moral issue than Netflix policy. Chief
S1: Benjamin King was actually grilled about this in UK parliamentary
S1: hearings last week. And it's interesting because he said, we
S1: didn't want to anonymize the show or make it too generic,
S1: to the point where it was no longer Richard Gad's story,
S1: because that would undermine the intent behind the show. I
S1: personally wouldn't be comfortable with a world in which we
S1: decided it was better that Richard was silenced and not
S1: allowed to tell the story. I kind of feel like
S1: that sounds like a really good point, but then it
S1: is sort of these two drastically opposed options without any
S1: consideration for what could happen in the middle. Like you
S1: could tell. And like lots of shows do this, you
S1: could tell a very similar story where perhaps the character
S1: doesn't have exactly the same traits down to their profession
S1: and their nationality. There are ways to make these things
S1: a little bit less obvious. When you're in an era
S1: where this is how people consume. TV and film and
S1: podcast and all these kinds of things. I kind of
S1: think I feel less critical of Richard than I do
S1: towards Netflix. I think, you know, he made this as
S1: a one person show for Edinburgh in 2019. He's like
S1: maybe 100 people will come and see this show. It
S1: doesn't live on in memory. You're not going to like
S1: rewind and take a screenshot and see who can find
S1: that looks like this person. And so he's told it
S1: honestly and authentically to himself. He's written it. Netflix has
S1: picked it up. I feel like it is on Netflix,
S1: or it's on any company who is streaming and telling
S1: this kind of story to then be like, okay, well, yeah,
S1: the biggest TV platform that has ever existed in the
S1: history of the world, we've been in situations like this before.
S1: Is it time to sit down and run the ruler
S1: over all of this and say, have we done enough here?
S1: And it seems like they just hadn't? And I think
S1: it's interesting because even if Fiona Harvey, the quote unquote
S1: real Martha, isn't able to successfully sue or, you know,
S1: the show stays up or whatever she wants doesn't happen.
S1: I kind of think this will change the way that
S1: Netflix and other networks make shows like this. I just
S1: think no one wants to be in like a quote
S1: unquote baby reindeer situation again. And whether it's through regulatory
S1: reform or just like policy changes at Netflix, which is
S1: generally from people I talk to, they say that it's
S1: much more lax than national broadcasters like the BBC and
S1: the ABC, which, because they're public institutions, have such specific
S1: editorial policies and guidelines about how you tell a story
S1: like this. Netflix is a little bit more of a cowboy.
S1: I think that's probably likely to change, and I think
S1: probably for the better, because they're the ones who make
S1: millions and millions, if not billions of dollars off these
S1: kinds of stories, and a lot of people then just
S1: become collateral damage. That makes sense.
S2: Yeah, I think that's right. The amount of money involved
S2: in this and the amount of people getting rich off,
S2: this is, I think, what kind of takes this into
S2: a different level, because just kind of thinking like, if
S2: he had written a memoir about this, he kind of
S2: could have said the same things, but the consequences would
S2: not have been the same. Yeah.
S1: Even if that memoir became a massive success and sold
S1: 100,000 copies, which would be amazing for a memoir from
S1: a comedian, that's a drop in the ocean compared to
S1: the 60 million people it seems like who've watched this show.
S2: Yeah, for sure. And like, I think Netflix didn't help
S2: themselves by playing how up, how much of a true
S2: story it was in every episode like that didn't help them,
S2: because of course, a lot of people then will want
S2: to investigate the true story, though I will say, I
S2: don't think obviously the name was going around in certain
S2: areas online, but I don't think Fiona Harvey was known
S2: as a name generally until she put herself onto Piers
S2: Morgan's show, because I think a lot of like the
S2: Daily Mail had interviewed her but didn't name her. So
S2: I actually think Fiona Harvey probably in a way also
S2: and like she says, she did it to kind of,
S2: you know, to she needed to own the story now. But,
S2: you know, maybe there's ways around that in terms of,
S2: you know, the ethics of media as well in playing
S2: into this story.
S1: Yeah. Well, we were talking about this, this a work
S1: because there's another person involved in this, the alleged perpetrator.
S1: If you see the show, there's a there's a person
S1: in the show, again, based on a real incident who
S1: does something very bad to Richard, which he assaults. Richard. Um,
S1: and people thought they had found that person. Uh, and
S1: they named them online. And that person then tweeted or
S1: put on social media. Hey, I'm not. The person involved
S1: in this. I'm not who the character is based on.
S1: I'm going to report any kind of threats made against
S1: me to the police. And then Richard also named that
S1: person and said, hey, it's not this person. So that
S1: person that identified themselves, we were talking at work. When
S1: we cover this, do we name that person? I sort
S1: of leant against doing so. This is why I keep
S1: saying that person not saying their name, even though you
S1: can find them on Reddit or on social media, because
S1: it's one thing for someone to to say something on
S1: a thread or even on their own Instagram. It's another
S1: when a big, reputable media institution or someone like Piers
S1: Morgan blasts that out to millions and millions more people.
S1: And particularly in the case where this person is saying
S1: I'm not identified, it feels a bit shit to be
S1: like name of person here says they are not the
S1: bad guy from baby reindeer. Well, I wasn't even thinking
S1: about them. And now I am because you've told me
S1: their name.
S2: Yeah, it's so complicated. And like, I guess you gave
S2: a few examples of when this has happened before in
S2: terms of shows based on real life experiences and people
S2: going down the rabbit hole of trying to find them out.
S2: There are so many where it hasn't happened, like I
S2: think I may, I May Destroy You, which was based
S2: on Michaela Cole's own experience, or she has been a
S2: survivor of sexual assault. You didn't see people trying to
S2: figure out who that perpetrator was. I mean, it's just
S2: such a hard line between when you think someone's going
S2: to be recognizable and when you think a show is
S2: going to take off to an extent that people are
S2: going to try and dock certain characters in it, I
S2: do think like, yes, Netflix can do more, but I
S2: do also think there are limits to what they can control,
S2: particularly when social media kind of has a life of
S2: its own.
S1: I think that's a really good point, and I think
S1: that sort of brings us to the other part of
S1: all this is like the audience or the people involved
S1: who are doing this kind of thing. I, you know,
S1: it's not my job to like lecture people or anything
S1: like that. We live in a moment in which this
S1: is how things work, whether it's you're you're laughing because
S1: it is kind of my job to like.
S8: Yeah.
S2: I was waiting for the here comes the lecture.
S1: No, I guess what I'm trying to say is, as
S1: much as I wish people weren't turning every true crime
S1: podcast or every TV show, documentary or fictional or whatever
S1: into a real life, like Reddit or Facebook group where
S1: they think they can solve these mysteries. As much as
S1: I wish that wasn't happening because of the obvious negative
S1: consequences of that, when they get it wrong, which they
S1: often do, that's the world we live in. So we
S1: just have to accept that's what it is interested in
S1: thinking about. Like why that is what it is like.
S1: Why do people feel the compulsion to do that? And
S1: a lot was made about the fact that everyone wanted
S1: to figure out who Martha was. They didn't want to
S1: figure out who the perpetrator who assaulted Richard was. I
S1: think dad does go to the fact that, like, maybe
S1: seeing a woman in that kind of threatening role is
S1: not something we're used to. And so that was seen
S1: as being a bit strange and like, let's figure out
S1: who this person is. They're so wacky and there are
S1: so many breadcrumbs for us to follow here. But it
S1: has just become part of how so many pieces of
S1: culture are dissected. And it seems reductive to me to
S1: not just engage with the work, like Richard Gadd is
S1: making a story that he has said from day one
S1: is not about saying this person's bad, it's about understanding
S1: why people would do something like this. And he says
S1: she's a victim in this as much as I am
S1: because of her mental health and what she's gone through
S1: and the ongoing ramifications of trauma, that's what the show
S1: is about. And that's interesting conversations you and I have
S1: had on the show with Thomas, people are having, you know,
S1: all around them, they watch the show. But then on
S1: Reddit in particular and some other forums, all that stripped
S1: away and it's just, hey, I found like this new
S1: story from this year that links this person to that person.
S1: A couple of questions for you. Like, how much culpability
S1: do we have in all of this? And why do
S1: you think people can't stop doing that?
S2: Yeah, I, I have to say, and maybe it's because
S2: I think, as previously discussed, everything's a lie, but I've
S2: never watched a show and ever felt the need to
S2: then go and see whether it's real, like watching this show.
S2: The only thing I looked up was Richard Gadd, because
S2: I wanted to know what else he had made or like.
S2: I think even back to watching The Crown, all these
S2: fact and fiction, what's true, what's not, I don't really care.
S2: I just presume that everything that's created comes through someone's lens,
S2: so someone else is definitely going to disagree with it.
S2: So I haven't quite ever felt that need to see
S2: whether something is true, because I think there's obviously a
S2: veracity in approximating the truth or a truth for a person. Um,
S2: why do people do it? I think maybe it adds something.
S2: It obviously adds something to the show for a lot
S2: of people, for the fact that knowing it is real
S2: or based in truth obviously adds something to the show
S2: for a lot of people. And then I do think
S2: it's just easy once you're in that kind of rabbit
S2: hole of looking up what's real and what's not. So
S2: then kind of continue doing that and go down the
S2: loop of exploring the real lives of everyone. Maybe it's
S2: that voyeurism that social media has kind of trained us
S2: in the kind of looking into other people's lives, and
S2: it is almost like, I mean, we were talking before
S2: about there being a second season to this. Um, it
S2: is almost like an addendum to the shows like you watch.
S2: The show. And then it's not just about watching the show,
S2: it's then about researching it. It's kind of becomes part
S2: of the process of watching television, I think for people.
S2: Do you ever do it? Are you a looker up
S2: or of truth?
S1: Well, no. First I want to say I think, I
S1: think that's a really great explanation as to the appeal
S1: of it, because some of that does ring true for me. Like, I,
S1: I don't I don't feel the urge to do it
S1: in a show like this. Like again, like I was
S1: kind of curious as to Richard Gadds back story, but
S1: it didn't occur to me to be like, oh, it's
S1: based on a true story. Who are these bad people involved?
S1: But I, I enjoyed doing it. Like if I'm watching
S1: a historical fiction show or something like The Dropout, you know,
S1: which is based on real like, you know, journalism that
S1: has happened or a book or whatever, and being like, oh, cool.
S1: Like what context can I add? Like, what have they
S1: changed from the book to the screen? Because like you said,
S1: everyone's changing everything. Everyone's making this with different intents, and
S1: it's sometimes interesting to figure out what they left behind
S1: or what they tweaked that I do. I think that's
S1: a pretty normal thing for people to do, but I think, yeah,
S1: trying to turn everything into a true crime series is
S1: where things seem to have gotten a little bit out
S1: of hand. I guess this is me lecturing people now again,
S1: which I which I'm trying not to do, but I mean, yeah,
S1: I is there any merit to it? I guess if
S1: we want to be sort of generous to people who
S1: do it because it's not like, you know, a bunch
S1: of weird freaks we're talking about. It's like many, many,
S1: many people. And I think the interrogation of this show
S1: is why it has been most watched for so long. Right.
S1: This is driving a lot of viewers to it. What
S1: is perhaps the most generous interpretation of this? People are
S1: trying to understand why people would do something like this.
S1: They just want to solve a mystery. They think they're
S1: being helpful. Any any kind of generous interpretations you can
S1: think of.
S2: Yeah. For sure. I mean, I think it's, it's there's
S2: a gradient, right? I think to be fair, I think
S2: it's perfectly fine to watch a show and want to
S2: Google like whether facts are true about it or to
S2: see how much of it is true. But there's a
S2: big difference between people doing that and then people kind
S2: of doxing. Yeah. And naming, speculating who they think it
S2: is and slandering. Yeah. And kicking off those whole kind
S2: of subgroups that do that. So I think there's a
S2: really big difference. Like, yeah, I totally get why people
S2: want to find out more about a show and they're
S2: interested in it and the context helps them. But I
S2: think the dangerous part is when it's the naming and
S2: shaming and it goes too far, which is probably a
S2: minority of the internet, really, in the whole grand scheme
S2: of things. But that's the area of concern because that
S2: then does have real world consequences for people.
S1: It is so fascinating to think about when we first
S1: mentioned this TV show on our show, it was Thomas
S1: doing it on Impress Your Friends. Like, you know, a
S1: couple of months ago did not expect it to either
S1: be the most watched show potentially in the history of Netflix,
S1: which could make it the most watched show in the
S1: history of the world, or be something that is part
S1: of like UK parliamentary hearings and leading to conversations about
S1: doxing and why people shouldn't do it. But on one hand,
S1: how amazing is television to spark these kinds of conversations?
S1: On the other hand, kind of a bit sad that
S1: we just kind of can't have nice and important things
S1: without people losing their minds.
S2: I know, and also, isn't it insane like we were
S2: talking about mid TV not that long ago? And then
S2: a show like this, which is so different. So, you know,
S2: out there not conventional, not I formulated intensely unique is
S2: like this show that has one Netflix like surely that's
S2: got to make them rethink a bit what they're doing
S2: as well. The success of something like this.
S1: Well, no. And exactly. And I think it relates to
S1: this conversation of whether they thought it through, because we
S1: talked earlier about how this came out of nowhere. Right.
S1: Like for most TV shows that are being dropped by
S1: big streamers, particularly ones that they think are going to
S1: go off, you get, you know, emails in advance. This
S1: show is coming out. You can watch early episodes, you
S1: can interview the talent, you can do some stories about them.
S1: You can get people hyped. None of that happened anywhere
S1: in the world for baby reindeer. So I wonder whether
S1: it was kind of acquired. They just thought, cool, this
S1: is like a cool Edinburgh show. It's like an interesting
S1: dark comedy. Off it goes. If they thought it was
S1: going to be such a big show, they probably would have.
S1: In my view, I think probably run that ruler over
S1: it and thought what the consequences could be here.
S2: Or at least manage the situation better with all of
S2: the people who were involved.
S1: Absolutely. Yeah. Because the other thing that Fiona Harvey said
S1: is that she did not even know the show was
S1: coming out. And I feel like when you're doing a
S1: story on someone as a journalist, whether you're making a documentary,
S1: whether you're making a fictional show that you're pitching as
S1: a true story, picking up the phone and calling the
S1: person who's quote unquote the bad guy is really tough.
S1: But it is an important part of the job. And
S1: it does feel like that was something that should have
S1: been done that wasn't done here, even just to give
S1: them a heads up or to say, hey, what concerns
S1: do you potentially have that we could factor in? That
S1: feels like something that could have happened early on in
S1: this process to avoid this kind of situation.
S2: Yeah, for sure. They could have protected themselves. And I mean,
S2: maybe they did. We don't know. That's only her claim,
S2: but I presume Netflix would have told us if they
S2: had spoken to her by now. But yes, they could have. Definitely.
S2: Protected themselves from a lot of this backlash by doing that. Yeah.
S1: Look, I got to make a guess and say, this
S1: might not be the last time we talk about baby reindeer,
S1: but we have another kind of trauma inflected show, but
S1: a much more fun one to talk about. This is
S1: one that Thomas has been messaging us about for a
S1: long time to watch. And really interestingly, the only reason
S1: I actually got around to watching it is I was
S1: out on Saturday night. I came home from a friend's
S1: birthday party and I wasn't quite ready to go to sleep.
S1: So I just watched, you know, like you put on
S1: a show that you watched ages ago. It's kind of comfortable.
S1: You don't need to grapple with complicated ideas like, I'll
S1: watch this as I fall to sleep, so turn to
S1: The Inbetweeners. And you know, we love that show. And
S1: I was like, I wonder what they're up to now?
S1: And I'm like, oh, cool. These guys are in that show.
S1: I watch that. And Will. What's he up to in cinema? Anything.
S1: And I went on his Wikipedia page, Simon Bird, who
S1: plays Will from The Inbetweeners and he is the director
S1: of this show that Thomas has been yelling at us
S1: to watch such brave girls. So I thought, what, I
S1: should actually watch this show, and I did, and I
S1: loved it.
S9: Well, can you pick me up, please? I'm having big feelings.
S9: I can only.
S10: Afford one daughter having a breakdown at a time. You're.
S11: Well, the thing about Josie is that she's been experimenting
S11: with some ideas.
S12: Well, that sounds good.
UU: No, no it's not.
S9: Maybe she'll spot me across the room and realize I'm
S9: the love of her life. Don't think so.
S13: Sometimes me and mom forget you were even there when
S13: you're standing right next to us.
S2: Billy Johnson Thomas Mitchell also bullied me into it, and
S2: it got to such an extent that he was like
S2: messaging me, saying, are you watching such brave girls? And
S2: I kind of like, I got a bit belligerent. I
S2: was like, you don't know me. You don't know what
S2: I like. Um, and then I did put it on
S2: mainly so that he would stop asking me about it
S2: and like, maybe this is, uh, maybe this is an
S2: early call. It's only May, but I'm going with best
S2: comedy of 2024.
S1: Wow, wow. Big call. Why didn't you tell us what
S1: the show is about?
S2: Yeah, it is a real word of mouth show. So
S2: it's on Stan in Australia. It's a six part BBC comedy,
S2: and it's created by Catt Sadler, who I hadn't heard
S2: of before this but is such a talent. It follows
S2: single mum Deb, who's played by Louise Brealey, and she's
S2: got two daughters, which is the press. Josie, who is
S2: kind of played to Chef's Kiss by Sadler and her
S2: boy mad sister Billy, who is played by Sadler's real
S2: life sister, Lizzy Davidson. So they're husband and dad. He's
S2: gone to the shop one day to get tea, which
S2: becomes a recurring kind of joke, and he's never returned,
S2: and they're all trying to get themselves out of their
S2: own personal and family troubles. It is so funny. It's
S2: so moving. It's very bold. I absolutely loved this and
S2: I think Inbetweeners is a good one. If you like
S2: Sharon Horgan stuff. Yeah, yeah. Rain dogs, there's uh, they're
S2: kind of comparison points, but it's also like they're quite
S2: short episodes. So I almost watched it all in one
S2: night because it was so fun and delightful to watch.
S1: It's really good. It's really good. And I've not heard
S1: that many people talking about it, which kind of surprises
S1: me for how high caliber I think it is. Like
S1: Catt Sadler is obviously a brilliant writer. It's a great
S1: idea and the dialogue and stories are so good. She's
S1: an amazing performer as well. And Louise Brealey, like, I
S1: remember her from Sherlock, the Benedict Cumberbatch, Martin Freeman one,
S1: and I always found her presence in that really intriguing
S1: and interesting, and seeing her play a very different role
S1: is also like, it's so, so unexpected in terms of
S1: the kinds of the kinds of turns each character makes
S1: its pitch. This comedy, it does have in-between eerie vibes
S1: in terms of these young people talking very frankly about
S1: sex and the awkwardness of being a teenager, but it
S1: is so unexpected in the ways it goes. You'll go
S1: from a really funny scene to a very, very, very
S1: dark and complicated statement from a character about a traumatic
S1: experience that they've had. But I think it finds that
S1: line where you are understanding the complex backstories of all
S1: of these people that are making them act in certain ways.
S1: And I guess that's where the, um, baby reindeer comp comes,
S1: and it doesn't sort of treat their trauma as a,
S1: as a pithy thing. You understand and you empathize, but
S1: you also don't wallow in it. You don't feel bad,
S1: you don't feel grim about the state of the world.
S1: It's kind of empathetic and funny at the same time.
S1: It's pretty rare for a show, I think, to nail
S1: it that tone in that way.
S2: Yeah. Agree. An inferior show would just feel like a mess.
S2: And we would say the tone was uneven, but it
S2: does tread that balance so well. And the episodes are
S2: sometimes focused on like one little bit like they go
S2: camping or there's a funeral or and so it kind
S2: of plays out in real time with them in a way.
S2: And I think like it kind of reminded me when
S2: I was watching succession, I used to want to go
S2: back and listen to the lines, because there's just so
S2: many good lines that you kind of feel like you're
S2: still digesting one. And then something else has come up,
S2: and I had that same feeling with this. There are
S2: so many good lines and there's so much said with
S2: so little, like short, sharp, pithy dialogue that, yeah, I
S2: just thought it was, uh, very impressive. Yeah.
S1: These British comedy writers, maybe because so many of them
S1: come from writing for stage, where they're at comedy festivals
S1: or for for theatre. There's so much good dialogue that
S1: you like are kind of trying to understand a joke,
S1: and they've made two more already. But then this is
S1: the kind of show I could actually watch like four, five, six,
S1: seven seasons of watching these girls grow up and their
S1: mums sort of deal with them. She's maybe like the
S1: worst mum in television since Lucille Bluth from Arrested Development. Um,
S1: but again, you kind of understand. It's like she's terrible.
S1: The way she talks to her kids can be so
S1: dismissive in a way that's like, funny and like a
S1: bit shocking, but you still feel for her. That's the
S1: crazy other thing about this show is that even though
S1: so many of these characters are kind of like comic
S1: relief because of how mean or like dumb they are,
S1: even like the sort of boyfriend that the mum has
S1: for a bit, who I find kind of annoying. 2
S1: or 3 episodes in, you're like, oh man, this guy's
S1: got his own shit going on as well. Like, I
S1: really feel for this dude.
S2: Yeah, it's not a cruel show. It doesn't punch down.
S2: It is empathetic to all of them. And even the mum,
S2: it's like, yes, she's cruel, but part of the reason
S2: she's cruel is that she's trying to get her kids
S2: out of this. Situation. She she wants money. She's trying
S2: to move them all forward because she's suffered in her
S2: life from kind of having the same illusions as some
S2: of her kids. So even the cruelness is kind of explained,
S2: I thought the two sisters, just their bond and their
S2: differences and the way they bounced off each other was
S2: kind of really the highlight of the show. Their riposte
S2: was amazing.
S1: Um, you said favorite comedy of the year so far,
S1: I would agree. I mean, I think it's probably neck
S1: and neck between this and the latest season of hacks
S1: for me, which I am really, really enjoying. But as
S1: far as like a new show goes, this is like
S1: easily right up there and very excitingly was just renewed,
S1: I think this month for a second season. That's pretty exciting. Yeah,
S1: I know.
S2: That's the only thing I was sad about. And maybe
S2: this is a strategy. A lot of these kind of
S2: BBC comedies only are six parters. I think of starstruck
S2: as well. Short, sharp season, you know, it does leave
S2: you wanting more. You don't get tired of it. So
S2: now I'm really keen for the second season and I.
S1: Hope it delivers, you know, this kind of classic sophomore
S1: syndrome where Kat Sadler is like, I really I've been
S1: working up to making this show. I've got these ideas.
S1: You use them all. I hope she's got some stuff
S1: in the tank. I mean, there's nothing to suggest the
S1: quality will drop off, but we have just seen this
S1: pattern before in television. I hope they find a way
S1: to keep it going. And like, I think because the characters,
S1: like you say, no one's punching down. It's not cruel.
S1: They're the kinds of people you could just like, you know,
S1: my my ongoing rant about how I want TV to
S1: go on for years. I want to watch characters grow
S1: and change. I want to feel something with them. I'd
S1: love to just, like, watch these girls grow up and
S1: grapple with like the real world and stuff as well.
S1: I hope we get enough of that.
S2: Yeah, I reckon I've got high hopes for this also
S2: because it's not like particularly plot driven. It's more like
S2: kind of you're looking at these moments in time, and
S2: it's not like the characters developing on a more micro
S2: like apparently micro level, even though they're obviously big for them. Like,
S2: I kind of I don't see it writing itself into
S2: into a plot hole. So, um, yeah, second season, is
S2: it coming out next year? Yeah, I.
S1: Think so.
S2: Yeah. Cool.
S1: Rock and roll. Or malware onto our Rig to Impress
S1: Your Friends segment where we share something we watched, read,
S1: listened to, consumed the world of culture in the past week.
S1: What have you got for me other than Clarkson's Farm, obviously.
S2: I mean, everyone go watch it and then let's chat.
S2: Let's chat.
S1: We can do a Clarkson's Farm episode.
S2: Do you want to? I think we could. I think
S2: there's a lot of fun in that. A lot of
S2: weather chat. And you love weather chat.
S1: Do I love weather chat?
S2: I feel like you're always talking about what the weather's.
S8: Like when you live in.
S1: Melbourne. It's important for your life to know what the
S1: weather's like.
S2: Yeah that's true. You weren't you in the farmers? Okay.
S2: My recommendation. Look, this is an odd one and I
S2: didn't want to like this album. I thought my days
S2: of Vampire Weekend were in my past. I. You know,
S2: that was an old Mel. That was high school, Mel.
S2: No one needed more vampire Weekend, but turns out I did.
S2: Only God Was Above Us is their new album. Have
S2: you listened to it?
S1: Um, this is one of those things where you not
S1: having Instagram leads to these really funny, awkward moments. Because I,
S1: I love this album. I went on like this kind
S1: of deranged Instagram Story rant about it, about how I
S1: thought it was one of the most transcendent pieces of
S1: art in a while, and I thought how it encapsulated
S1: both Vampire Weekend's trajectory from sort of nihilistic indie rockers
S1: to becoming people who are talking about the decay of
S1: the modern world and futility of things as horrific things
S1: are happening all around us, and managing to do that
S1: in a way that felt relatable to everyone our age
S1: who grew up in that kind of pre-crisis, desiring music
S1: that meant nothing, and then watching everything that we thought
S1: we would be able to live into and enjoy crumble.
S1: And then having Vampire Weekend and Ezra tell us all
S1: about it. So yes, I really like this album.
S8: Wow. I've got to take about it.
S2: This was that was very well put. Look, this is
S2: why this is why we get on so well. I
S2: love Vampire Weekends new album. Yeah, I completely agree. There's
S2: like something nostalgic in the sounds, right? Because I can
S2: hear sounds of Old Vampire Weekend as well as something
S2: very new. And mainly I love like after Kendrick and
S2: Drake with their fighting and Taylor with all her breakups.
S2: I love Vampire Weekend singing about getting old and being
S2: disillusioned and memory and that that's speaking to me right now. Um,
S2: love the song Capricorn. I put that on my I'm
S2: making a Best Songs of 2020 list on Spotify, which
S2: maybe I'll share with you at the end of the year. Um,
S2: so Capricorn and Prep School Gangsters has gone on that
S2: list for me, but, um, yeah, I think it's a
S2: really pleasant listen.
S1: They're my two favorites as well. And I also love Hope,
S1: which is the final track, which is like eight minutes
S1: because I think it's really tongue in cheek and people
S1: have interpreted differently. I know some critics have said, you know,
S1: it's nice after an album that feels a bit bleak
S1: and a bit blunt about the state of the world,
S1: the song is called Hope and you feel pretty good.
S1: I'm like, I think they've sort of taken the piss, uh,
S1: of people who have hope. That's kind of like there's
S1: nothing hopeful to enjoy. But again, a track that really
S1: makes you think a whole album really that makes you
S1: think about things but not feel bad about it, like
S1: the music is fun and nice whilst evoking thoughts about
S1: what is our culpability in the current moment in the
S1: state of the world, in so many different ways, and
S1: whether we can ever break out of it. I feel
S1: like they're kind of saying, we tried guys, it didn't work.
S1: Just don't bother. Just like, enjoy what you can. And
S1: that's certainly a really solid statement for artists to make.
S1: And what else do you want from artists other than
S1: to have a stance and articulate it in a way
S1: that sounds catchy and fun?
S2: Yeah, agree. Have you kept up with Vampire Weekend over
S2: the years?
S1: Yeah, I have so father of the bride, which came out,
S1: I think the end of 2019, or maybe the beginning
S1: of 2020 was the end of 2019. That was one
S1: of my favorite albums of that year as well. They're
S1: just they're a really good band, and it's sort of
S1: almost a joke because they're also like the whitest band ever,
S1: and I love them, so take that.
S2: Yeah. Love it. You're complex. Okay. What's your rack?
S1: Um, I need a shout out, my friend Alex, who
S1: put me onto the show. This is the one I
S1: was watching last night instead of the budget. She texted
S1: me about this show after listening to our conversation about
S1: the idea of you because it stars Nicholas Galitzine. The
S1: show is called Mary and George. It's a historical drama
S1: dark comedy. It stars Julianne Moore, no less, as the
S1: Countess of Buckingham, who molds her son, played by Nicholas Galitzine,
S1: to seduce.
S2: You are.
S8: Complex.
S1: Uh, Nicholas Galitzine plays her son. Uh, she molds him
S1: into seducing King James the First and becoming his lover.
S1: It's loosely based on real historical events. It's great. This
S1: is really fun. If you like the great, which I
S1: think you did, I think you'll love this as well.
S1: It's on binge here. It's really, really fun. And again, like,
S1: I had no idea there was like, Julianne Moore and
S1: Nicholas Galitzine were in this really interesting show. Uh. It's awesome.
S1: Could not recommend this more Mary and George.
S2: Wow. I will give that a go. Is it the
S2: same kind of very dark, sexy tone of the great?
S1: I would say it's a bit less comedic and like
S1: more on the drama, but it is tonally very similar.
S1: It's like it's it's in the same universe as as
S1: the great. Like, let's take these things from history that
S1: traditionally have been a bit prim and proper, and let's
S1: just lean into how kind of fucked up all this was.
S1: And also King James, turns out he had a lover.
S1: Why have we talked about that on television before? Let's
S1: make that a show.
S2: Wow. Put that in the put that in the credits.
S8: Who was it?
S2: All right. You bully me for a month, and then
S2: I'll watch it.
S8: Rock and roll will do.
S1: Um, hey, I think we did a pretty good job
S1: with that, Thomas.
S2: I think so. I hope he's having fun swimming with
S2: the crocodiles. Whatever he's doing with them.
S1: I hope he hasn't been eaten yet.
S8: Yeah, well, you.
S2: Know, I imagine it would be his own fault if he.
S8: Was.
S1: Uh, Mel, thanks so much. See you next week. Bye.
S1: This episode of The Drop was produced by Kai Wong.
S1: If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop,
S1: make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast app.
S1: Leave us a review or better yet, share it with
S1: a friend! I'm Usman Farooqi, see.
UU: You next week.