1 00:00:07,850 --> 00:00:10,850 S1: Hey, I'm Osman Farooqui and this is the drop a 2 00:00:10,850 --> 00:00:13,460 S1: culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age, 3 00:00:13,460 --> 00:00:15,590 S1: where we dive into the latest in the world of 4 00:00:15,590 --> 00:00:21,410 S1: pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Mel Schembri. Hello, Thomas. Mel, 5 00:00:21,410 --> 00:00:24,230 S1: as you know, is out of action this week. He's away. 6 00:00:24,230 --> 00:00:26,930 S1: He's in a remote location on the set of an 7 00:00:26,930 --> 00:00:30,500 S1: exciting upcoming movie that we'll get to hear about down 8 00:00:30,500 --> 00:00:32,840 S1: the track, but it's just you and I holding it 9 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:34,280 S1: down together. How are you doing? How are you feeling 10 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:34,940 S1: about that? 11 00:00:34,940 --> 00:00:37,339 S2: I'm doing good, I believe. Yesterday he gave me an update. 12 00:00:37,340 --> 00:00:39,709 S2: He said he was going to be swimming with crocodiles, 13 00:00:39,710 --> 00:00:42,019 S2: which I thought didn't sound safe. 14 00:00:42,020 --> 00:00:44,030 S1: He texted me that as well. We sort of probably 15 00:00:44,030 --> 00:00:47,210 S1: giving away the location he is at by saying that, um, 16 00:00:47,210 --> 00:00:49,400 S1: and I don't know if he meant. Because then we 17 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,610 S1: got a video from him this morning where he had, 18 00:00:52,610 --> 00:00:53,990 S1: you know, when you go on those trips on a 19 00:00:53,990 --> 00:00:55,790 S1: boat and they put the meat on a stick, I 20 00:00:55,790 --> 00:00:57,890 S1: don't think he's getting in that river, is he? He's 21 00:00:57,890 --> 00:00:58,880 S1: not swimming with the croc. 22 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:01,520 S2: Had questions. I said, are you confused? Do you mean 23 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,399 S2: you're going swimming with dolphins? But, um, he seemed adamant 24 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:06,860 S2: that he was going to be with the crocodiles. Uh. 25 00:01:07,220 --> 00:01:09,920 S1: Well, then this might be, uh, we might never have 26 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:11,900 S1: him back on the podcast. This could be the future 27 00:01:11,900 --> 00:01:14,810 S1: of the podcast, uh, after Thomas is eaten by a croc. 28 00:01:14,810 --> 00:01:16,490 S2: But what a way to go. If anyone's going to 29 00:01:16,490 --> 00:01:18,620 S2: go out in such a big way, it's going to 30 00:01:18,620 --> 00:01:19,460 S2: be Thomas Mitchell. 31 00:01:21,290 --> 00:01:24,890 S1: You were telling me just before we, uh, started recording that, um, 32 00:01:24,890 --> 00:01:28,160 S1: you're a big fan of a surprising show you've been watching. 33 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:30,770 S1: No one that I would have expected from you. Jeremy 34 00:01:30,770 --> 00:01:36,080 S1: Clarkson's latest series, Clarkson's Farm. You just love the fact 35 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:38,750 S1: that he's striking a blow against woke culture. 36 00:01:39,860 --> 00:01:42,830 S2: Look, I have to. And I caveat this with I 37 00:01:42,830 --> 00:01:45,110 S2: don't read his column. I didn't watch Top Gear. I'm 38 00:01:45,110 --> 00:01:50,480 S2: not super across Jeremy Clarkson public phenomenon. I've just come 39 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:52,670 S2: to him really in this show. And I've always liked 40 00:01:52,670 --> 00:01:56,060 S2: shows about farming. Like I like River cottage as well, 41 00:01:56,060 --> 00:01:58,940 S2: and all it is is watching a man who can't 42 00:01:58,940 --> 00:02:00,980 S2: farm try to farm. And I actually think it's doing 43 00:02:00,980 --> 00:02:03,530 S2: quite good public service, like it is shining a light 44 00:02:03,530 --> 00:02:06,800 S2: on on the plight of farmers and how difficult an 45 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,950 S2: industry it is. And the importance of it. And I 46 00:02:09,950 --> 00:02:12,920 S2: think he actually comes across quite well. And I mean, 47 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,500 S2: I guess if you're kind of more aware of his 48 00:02:15,500 --> 00:02:18,680 S2: persona beyond the farm, it might be harder to like him. 49 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:22,010 S2: But I find him quite, quite charismatic and fun to watch. 50 00:02:22,010 --> 00:02:23,870 S2: And it's actually all the supporting cast in it as 51 00:02:23,870 --> 00:02:27,109 S2: well is really good. Um, all the locals who who feature. 52 00:02:27,110 --> 00:02:27,680 S2: Do you watch it? 53 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:29,779 S1: No, I've never seen it. But I do hear people 54 00:02:29,780 --> 00:02:34,609 S1: of all kinds of backgrounds and views enjoy this show. 55 00:02:34,610 --> 00:02:36,530 S1: I kind of willing to take your word for it. 56 00:02:36,530 --> 00:02:39,020 S1: I did like Top Gear, like my dad loved Top Gear, 57 00:02:39,020 --> 00:02:41,570 S1: so we watched a lot of Top Gear when I 58 00:02:41,570 --> 00:02:44,060 S1: was growing up, and I always found him, you know, 59 00:02:44,060 --> 00:02:46,880 S1: a little bit like acerbic and a bit annoying, but 60 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,910 S1: he's pretty good, like TV presence, and I just don't 61 00:02:49,910 --> 00:02:52,610 S1: read his columns in, you know, the Times or the 62 00:02:52,610 --> 00:02:54,440 S1: Daily Mail, whatever he writes where he just sort of 63 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,560 S1: has a go at issues of the day. So yeah, 64 00:02:57,560 --> 00:02:59,570 S1: if I can just like put that to the side 65 00:02:59,570 --> 00:03:01,430 S1: and just watch this man, as you say, try to 66 00:03:01,460 --> 00:03:03,680 S1: what is he farming? He's like a hobby farm. Or 67 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:07,040 S1: is this like a large scale agricultural project? 68 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:09,050 S2: Yeah, large scale agriculture. Oh, really? 69 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:10,429 S1: It's like a big farm he's doing. 70 00:03:10,430 --> 00:03:12,860 S2: Yeah, yeah. There are all kinds of, um, crops. They. 71 00:03:12,860 --> 00:03:15,350 S2: They're having problems with their rape seeds. Don't plant those 72 00:03:15,350 --> 00:03:19,070 S2: very temperamental barley. Wheat. They've got pigs. I've learned so 73 00:03:19,070 --> 00:03:23,840 S2: much about pigs, gestations and pregnancies like, you know, I 74 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:25,760 S2: feel like a farmer myself now. Um, yeah. So it's 75 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:27,650 S2: all kinds of things. He's growing mushrooms. 76 00:03:27,650 --> 00:03:29,690 S1: Should we just scrap the pod and just talk about 77 00:03:29,690 --> 00:03:31,400 S1: this and what you've learnt from farming? 78 00:03:31,669 --> 00:03:34,820 S2: Yeah, I think that's it. I know how to make cider. 79 00:03:34,820 --> 00:03:36,500 S2: How you have to make sure you ferment it well 80 00:03:36,500 --> 00:03:38,840 S2: so the bottles don't explode. I mean, there's a lot 81 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:39,860 S2: to take away from it. 82 00:03:39,980 --> 00:03:41,750 S1: Uh, there's another thing I need to ask you about. 83 00:03:41,750 --> 00:03:44,750 S1: I hear a rumor, Mel, that you're now maybe, like, 84 00:03:44,750 --> 00:03:49,040 S1: one step removed from the biggest pop star in the 85 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:50,930 S1: history of the world, Taylor Swift. Is that true? 86 00:03:51,260 --> 00:03:53,540 S2: Yeah, I think that is fair to say that I 87 00:03:53,540 --> 00:03:57,110 S2: might be namechecked in some of their, um, in some 88 00:03:57,110 --> 00:04:00,530 S2: of her songs in the future. Um, no. This was 89 00:04:00,530 --> 00:04:04,910 S2: I interviewed Miranda July, who's a artist and author. Do 90 00:04:04,910 --> 00:04:05,870 S2: you know much about her? 91 00:04:06,050 --> 00:04:08,630 S1: Uh, I'm familiar with some of the things she's directed, 92 00:04:08,630 --> 00:04:11,360 S1: but I'm like, probably not, you know, as deep in 93 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,150 S1: the Miranda July universe as as others. 94 00:04:14,730 --> 00:04:16,740 S2: Yeah, I reckon this book, her new one, it's called 95 00:04:16,740 --> 00:04:18,210 S2: All Fours, is going to be a huge hit. That's 96 00:04:18,210 --> 00:04:20,520 S2: why I was interviewing her. I'd only read her book. 97 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:22,320 S2: The first bad man. That's how I came to her. 98 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:23,909 S2: I read that a while ago. And then I went 99 00:04:23,910 --> 00:04:26,550 S2: back and watched the films Kajillionaire Me and You and 100 00:04:26,550 --> 00:04:29,400 S2: Everyone We Know, which was quite a big hit. Her debut. Um, 101 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:31,560 S2: so I was talking to her for this book. Turns 102 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:35,400 S2: out she's really good friends with Margaret Qualley, who is 103 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,430 S2: the wife of Jack Antonoff, who is, as we know, 104 00:04:38,430 --> 00:04:41,489 S2: the super producer of Taylor. And they've had lots of 105 00:04:41,490 --> 00:04:43,830 S2: brushes together. And Miranda July is kind of part of 106 00:04:43,830 --> 00:04:47,909 S2: their circle and went to Jack Antonoff and Margaret's wedding 107 00:04:47,910 --> 00:04:50,040 S2: and said that Taylor Swift kind of ruined it with 108 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,099 S2: all the, um, with all the, uh, publicity that came 109 00:04:53,100 --> 00:04:53,849 S2: along with that. 110 00:04:53,850 --> 00:04:56,520 S1: Well, that gives us, um, for firstly, very cool that 111 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:00,360 S1: you interviewed Miranda July. That's exciting. Secondly, that gives us 112 00:05:00,510 --> 00:05:02,610 S1: another thing we have in common, because I also know 113 00:05:02,610 --> 00:05:05,850 S1: someone who attended that wedding and is friends with Margaret Qualley. 114 00:05:05,850 --> 00:05:08,369 S1: So there you go. There's basically the two of us 115 00:05:08,370 --> 00:05:09,180 S1: should have been there. 116 00:05:09,180 --> 00:05:10,200 S2: Who do you know? 117 00:05:10,529 --> 00:05:14,940 S1: Uh, Geraldine Viswanathan, who is an Australian actress who was 118 00:05:14,940 --> 00:05:18,120 S1: most recently in Drive Away Dolls, the, uh, Ethan Coen 119 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,969 S1: film alongside Mark Ruffalo. She also was at that wedding, 120 00:05:20,970 --> 00:05:24,479 S1: and she told me a really funny story about Taylor Swift, 121 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,540 S1: kind of recognizing her and them having a conversation about 122 00:05:27,540 --> 00:05:30,510 S1: Taylor Swift's handbag. And I really tried to get her 123 00:05:30,510 --> 00:05:33,270 S1: on the pod to talk about driveway dolls and get 124 00:05:33,270 --> 00:05:35,640 S1: her to tell us that story. And just the timing 125 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:37,770 S1: didn't work out because she was in LA. And then 126 00:05:37,770 --> 00:05:40,229 S1: she went on like Kimmel and told that story on Kimmel, 127 00:05:40,230 --> 00:05:42,900 S1: and I'm like, damn, that's a story worthy of American 128 00:05:42,900 --> 00:05:44,460 S1: late night TV. And we could have had it on 129 00:05:44,460 --> 00:05:45,300 S1: this pod first. 130 00:05:45,300 --> 00:05:47,550 S2: Damn, she really tested you first. I actually had a 131 00:05:47,550 --> 00:05:50,159 S2: bit of confusion with Miranda July about the wedding, because 132 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,130 S2: I said to her, I didn't see you there, and 133 00:05:53,130 --> 00:05:56,610 S2: I meant I didn't see you in the paparazzi pictures, 134 00:05:56,610 --> 00:06:01,170 S2: but I think she thought I was also potentially there. 135 00:06:01,170 --> 00:06:02,760 S2: And I was trying to say, like, I was there, 136 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:04,349 S2: but I didn't see you there. So I had did 137 00:06:04,350 --> 00:06:05,040 S2: she say like, what. 138 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:06,420 S1: Were you doing there? How did you get there? 139 00:06:06,540 --> 00:06:09,330 S2: I think well, then she thought maybe I was questioning 140 00:06:09,330 --> 00:06:12,060 S2: the veracity of her account because she was like, no, no, 141 00:06:12,060 --> 00:06:14,250 S2: I was, I was there, I guess I just wasn't. 142 00:06:14,250 --> 00:06:16,740 S1: You were saying you were there and she wasn't there. 143 00:06:16,740 --> 00:06:20,070 S2: Yeah, yeah. So I had to clarify that. No, I 144 00:06:20,070 --> 00:06:22,260 S2: did not attend. I just didn't see her in any pictures, 145 00:06:22,260 --> 00:06:24,210 S2: which she was like, why would I be in them? 146 00:06:24,210 --> 00:06:26,760 S1: That is really funny. I also realize one of my 147 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,969 S1: friends has this gag about podcasts, where every podcast in 148 00:06:29,970 --> 00:06:34,320 S1: the history of the world starts as a podcast about 149 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,469 S1: a particular thing, whether that's TV or film or whatever, 150 00:06:37,470 --> 00:06:41,010 S1: and then eventually just becomes like people talking about what 151 00:06:41,010 --> 00:06:44,190 S1: they've been up to and what their thoughts are like 152 00:06:44,190 --> 00:06:46,620 S1: ten minutes into this podcast and we've talked about you 153 00:06:46,620 --> 00:06:49,859 S1: just watching Clarkson's Farm and us chatting to, you know, 154 00:06:49,860 --> 00:06:53,669 S1: friends or work people about weddings they attended months ago. Very, very. 155 00:06:53,670 --> 00:06:54,929 S2: Good. I mean, I'm okay with that. We have a 156 00:06:54,930 --> 00:06:55,859 S2: lot to catch up on. 157 00:06:55,860 --> 00:06:58,680 S1: I have another I have actually the corollary to that 158 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,380 S1: theory from, uh, from my friend. I don't know if 159 00:07:01,380 --> 00:07:04,860 S1: you saw this clip, uh, Donald Trump was speaking at 160 00:07:04,860 --> 00:07:08,070 S1: a rally in new Jersey last week, and he kind 161 00:07:08,070 --> 00:07:11,040 S1: of went off script and just started talking about the 162 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:15,090 S1: film The Silence of the lambs, featuring Anthony Hopkins. You 163 00:07:15,090 --> 00:07:16,470 S1: across this, this thing? 164 00:07:16,470 --> 00:07:17,100 S2: I didn't see it. 165 00:07:17,100 --> 00:07:19,200 S1: What happened? The clip that sort of went viral. He 166 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,050 S1: just kind of out of nowhere, just started saying, you know, 167 00:07:22,050 --> 00:07:24,090 S1: silence of the lambs. Do you guys know about this movie? 168 00:07:24,090 --> 00:07:27,780 S1: It's a great film starring the late, great Hannibal Lecter. 169 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,840 S3: Silence of the lamb. Has anyone ever seen A silence 170 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:34,950 S3: of the lambs? The late, great Hannibal Lecter is a 171 00:07:34,950 --> 00:07:38,460 S3: wonderful man. He oftentimes would have a friend for dinner. 172 00:07:38,940 --> 00:07:41,400 S3: Remember the last scene? Excuse me. I'm about to have 173 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:43,890 S3: a friend for dinner. Is this poor doctor walked by? 174 00:07:44,250 --> 00:07:46,440 S3: I'm about to have a friend for dinner. 175 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:48,780 S1: And so to me, this is the reverse of the 176 00:07:48,780 --> 00:07:51,480 S1: theory that every film podcast just becomes mates hanging out 177 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:55,350 S1: and talking shit. Donald Trump is morphing into a film podcaster. 178 00:07:55,350 --> 00:07:58,530 S1: He is just going off piste and talking about these 179 00:07:58,770 --> 00:08:00,840 S1: random movies that won a lot of Academy Awards in 180 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:04,200 S1: the early 90s. It's kind of confusing because Hannibal Lecter 181 00:08:04,290 --> 00:08:08,250 S1: or Anthony Hopkins, the actor who played him, they're neither late. 182 00:08:08,250 --> 00:08:10,560 S1: I mean, they're definitely not late. They're both still alive. Well, 183 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:14,070 S1: in the in the Red Dragon universe, Hannibal Lecter is alive. 184 00:08:14,070 --> 00:08:17,550 S1: Anthony Hopkins is certainly alive. And I would know if 185 00:08:17,550 --> 00:08:20,250 S1: I don't know if I would call one of the 186 00:08:20,250 --> 00:08:24,510 S1: most famous cannibals in fiction. Great, either. Um, I strongly 187 00:08:24,510 --> 00:08:27,240 S1: encourage you to seek out this clip. There's allegedly 80,000 188 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:29,610 S1: people in this stadium where he's talking about this. It's 189 00:08:29,610 --> 00:08:30,420 S1: very funny. 190 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,690 S2: It's amazing. And also, like, does it surprise me that 191 00:08:33,690 --> 00:08:35,970 S2: that's his one of his favorite films or the film 192 00:08:35,970 --> 00:08:37,350 S2: he references? Maybe not. 193 00:08:38,580 --> 00:08:40,800 S1: It is a good film. You know, Jodie Foster, she's 194 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:41,790 S1: great in it as well. 195 00:08:41,790 --> 00:08:43,890 S2: Yeah. When she gets the hose, puts the lotion on 196 00:08:43,890 --> 00:08:46,140 S2: and gets the goes, I always think of that scene. Oh, 197 00:08:46,140 --> 00:08:47,130 S2: that song that. 198 00:08:47,340 --> 00:08:50,370 S1: Yeah, yeah, it gets the hose again. Yeah. Puts the lotion. Gosh, 199 00:08:50,370 --> 00:08:51,510 S1: that's a throwback. 200 00:08:51,510 --> 00:08:52,230 S2: What a moment. 201 00:08:52,230 --> 00:08:54,750 S1: Hey, should we get into today's episode? 202 00:08:54,870 --> 00:08:56,429 S2: I thought you were gonna say, should we get Trump 203 00:08:56,429 --> 00:08:58,020 S2: on the show to chat more? 204 00:08:59,010 --> 00:09:01,230 S1: Um, look, there's a few different things we wanted to 205 00:09:01,230 --> 00:09:04,770 S1: cover on the show today. Baby reindeer, which we've spoken 206 00:09:04,770 --> 00:09:07,470 S1: about a couple of times already. It's on track to 207 00:09:07,470 --> 00:09:12,390 S1: become the most watched show in the history of Netflix, 208 00:09:12,390 --> 00:09:15,479 S1: and perhaps one of the most controversial. Virtual shows on 209 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,690 S1: Netflix as well. We're going to look at its phenomenal response, why? 210 00:09:18,690 --> 00:09:21,900 S1: It just keeps getting more and more viewers and some 211 00:09:21,900 --> 00:09:24,809 S1: of the complicated questions the show's raised about the way 212 00:09:24,809 --> 00:09:27,990 S1: real life stories are told in fictional forms, and the 213 00:09:27,990 --> 00:09:32,640 S1: responsibility creators and audiences have when engaging with this kind 214 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:34,710 S1: of work. We're also going to talk about one of 215 00:09:34,710 --> 00:09:37,830 S1: our favorite shows that we've watched recently, a show that 216 00:09:37,830 --> 00:09:39,929 S1: we're both a little bit late to. Thomas actually has 217 00:09:39,929 --> 00:09:42,030 S1: been hounding us to get onto this for a while, 218 00:09:42,030 --> 00:09:43,650 S1: and we finally did. And we're going to talk about 219 00:09:43,650 --> 00:09:46,620 S1: it while he's away. So sucked in. Thomas. Too bad. Um, 220 00:09:46,620 --> 00:09:51,450 S1: but first, Mel. The federal budget was unveiled on Tuesday 221 00:09:51,450 --> 00:09:54,000 S1: night and for everyone listening, switches off to go listen 222 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,880 S1: to Andrew Huberman or call her daddy or whatever podcasts 223 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,100 S1: normal people listen to, I promise we're only going to 224 00:09:59,100 --> 00:10:03,540 S1: briefly discuss federal politics and what is in store for 225 00:10:03,540 --> 00:10:07,890 S1: arts and culture in particular. Throughout my career as a journalist, Mel, 226 00:10:07,890 --> 00:10:11,699 S1: I've generally had to cover the budget, either being like 227 00:10:11,700 --> 00:10:14,730 S1: in the lock up or staying up late editing stories, 228 00:10:14,730 --> 00:10:17,220 S1: working on podcasts. So explain what's going on. Who are 229 00:10:17,220 --> 00:10:19,200 S1: the winners and losers? What is the budget narrative? What 230 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,930 S1: does this mean for the future of the country? Thankfully, 231 00:10:21,929 --> 00:10:24,840 S1: in my current job, I do not have to spend 232 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:27,840 S1: budget night working. In fact, instead of even watching the 233 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:30,660 S1: Treasurer's speech, I was watching another show. That is going 234 00:10:30,660 --> 00:10:33,240 S1: to be my recommendation on Impress Your Friends. I'll say 235 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:36,510 S1: more on that later, but did you watch any of 236 00:10:36,510 --> 00:10:37,860 S1: the budget coverage? 237 00:10:38,250 --> 00:10:40,380 S2: No, I didn't watch it. I did read all of 238 00:10:40,380 --> 00:10:43,620 S2: our coverage. Went straight to that winners and losers infographic, 239 00:10:43,620 --> 00:10:46,620 S2: which always amuses me. And then I did read, of course, 240 00:10:46,620 --> 00:10:49,980 S2: Ross Gittins takeaways from it, which I think really allowed 241 00:10:49,980 --> 00:10:52,350 S2: me to understand inflation and recession for once. 242 00:10:53,010 --> 00:10:54,510 S1: Well, yeah, some of the winners and losers. I don't 243 00:10:54,510 --> 00:10:56,610 S1: know if it was Alan or the ABC's one where 244 00:10:56,610 --> 00:11:02,070 S1: they were like losers, sheep, farmers, winners, sheep. I don't 245 00:11:02,070 --> 00:11:03,480 S1: really know what's going on there, but. 246 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:04,230 S2: It's so good. 247 00:11:04,230 --> 00:11:04,890 S1: Happy for the sheep. 248 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,290 S2: Let me let me explain that to you, because I 249 00:11:07,290 --> 00:11:13,980 S2: do understand that Jeremy has prepared me for this question. Um, no. 250 00:11:13,980 --> 00:11:15,810 S2: So I didn't watch it, but I did kind of 251 00:11:15,809 --> 00:11:17,610 S2: read the outlines. And then I was very keen to 252 00:11:17,610 --> 00:11:20,610 S2: see if there was any, um, any support for arts 253 00:11:20,610 --> 00:11:23,250 S2: and culture, for which there was not a lot. Yeah. 254 00:11:23,250 --> 00:11:26,819 S1: So I went onto the actual budget government website. I 255 00:11:26,820 --> 00:11:29,520 S1: went to Budget Paper two, I believe I went to 256 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:33,570 S1: budget measures outlined in expenditures, and I went to the 257 00:11:33,570 --> 00:11:39,090 S1: whatever department that arts is in. It's sort of like infrastructure, defense, health, blah, blah, blah, 258 00:11:39,090 --> 00:11:40,710 S1: everything under the sun. And then at the end you 259 00:11:40,710 --> 00:11:43,470 S1: got art stacked on and there is like half a 260 00:11:43,470 --> 00:11:46,860 S1: page of arts budget spending. Uh, it's not a lot, 261 00:11:46,860 --> 00:11:48,929 S1: as you mentioned. And what is in there is kind 262 00:11:48,929 --> 00:11:51,720 S1: of minimal in terms of the amount of money involved. 263 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:53,790 S1: But there's a couple of things I think worth mentioning. 264 00:11:53,790 --> 00:11:56,250 S1: They touch on things that we talk about on this show. 265 00:11:56,309 --> 00:11:59,340 S1: They touch on areas to do with the future of 266 00:11:59,340 --> 00:12:01,709 S1: Australian arts and TV and film and all these kinds 267 00:12:01,710 --> 00:12:04,349 S1: of things. Uh, our colleague at the paper, Linda Morris, 268 00:12:04,350 --> 00:12:07,230 S1: has been reporting on the financial crisis. Really, that's been 269 00:12:07,230 --> 00:12:11,250 S1: impacting Australia's art schools, places like Aftrs that train the 270 00:12:11,250 --> 00:12:14,790 S1: next generation of people who make TV and film and screenwriters. Uh, 271 00:12:14,790 --> 00:12:17,280 S1: there's also Nida, the National Institute of Dramatic Art, which 272 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:21,150 S1: trains up actors. They've not been doing very well financially 273 00:12:21,150 --> 00:12:23,790 S1: over the last few years, but the government has stepped in. 274 00:12:23,790 --> 00:12:29,309 S1: They've received $115 million boost. That's pretty exciting for the 275 00:12:29,309 --> 00:12:31,440 S1: future of Australian arts education, isn't it? Yeah. 276 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:33,030 S2: That's huge. And like if we were going to do 277 00:12:33,030 --> 00:12:35,309 S2: a breakdown of winners and losers for arts, they are 278 00:12:35,309 --> 00:12:37,410 S2: a clear winner. They were kind of getting a lot 279 00:12:37,410 --> 00:12:39,660 S2: of money from this budget. And it's increasing over the 280 00:12:39,660 --> 00:12:41,970 S2: years quite substantially. And I think that's a brilliant thing 281 00:12:41,970 --> 00:12:45,030 S2: because it's impossible to be an artist today. So I'm 282 00:12:45,030 --> 00:12:47,610 S2: glad to see that we're at least attempting to nurture 283 00:12:47,610 --> 00:12:50,910 S2: young talent at the schools. But then obviously we're going 284 00:12:50,910 --> 00:12:52,260 S2: to have to make sure that there are jobs and 285 00:12:52,260 --> 00:12:55,410 S2: supports once, once they enter the industry as professionals. 286 00:12:55,410 --> 00:12:58,140 S1: Exactly, exactly. And that that's sort of the next, uh, 287 00:12:58,140 --> 00:13:00,150 S1: part of that kind of pipeline. And there was a 288 00:13:00,150 --> 00:13:04,120 S1: little bit there as well. There was an extra $14.5 289 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:09,150 S1: million to help produce more children's television shows. You know, 290 00:13:09,150 --> 00:13:11,370 S1: it's like a Bluey. It's been a big Australian kids 291 00:13:11,370 --> 00:13:14,339 S1: TV export. I would kind of like us to go 292 00:13:14,340 --> 00:13:16,500 S1: back to that crazy era where we grew up, where 293 00:13:16,500 --> 00:13:20,010 S1: it wasn't just kind of animated. We had these live action, scripted, 294 00:13:20,010 --> 00:13:23,220 S1: wacky kids programs like Round the Twist and Ship to 295 00:13:23,220 --> 00:13:26,309 S1: Shore that, you know, created and nurtured and incubated generation 296 00:13:26,309 --> 00:13:29,130 S1: of Australian kind of talent and taught people how to 297 00:13:29,130 --> 00:13:32,579 S1: write and direct and edit and do lighting. I don't know, 298 00:13:32,580 --> 00:13:34,709 S1: 14.5 million is going to be enough to do that. 299 00:13:34,710 --> 00:13:38,310 S1: I know we've talked before about these bigger policy questions 300 00:13:38,309 --> 00:13:42,150 S1: around streaming quotas. How can the government get more out 301 00:13:42,150 --> 00:13:45,000 S1: of the presence of Netflix and Disney and Amazon and 302 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,780 S1: these big companies to actually fund and make more Australian shows? 303 00:13:48,780 --> 00:13:52,230 S1: Netflix obviously has had big success with Heartbreak High, but 304 00:13:52,230 --> 00:13:55,020 S1: it's fair to say there's more to do across the board. 305 00:13:55,020 --> 00:13:58,830 S1: How do you feel about that investment in kids television? 306 00:13:58,830 --> 00:13:59,490 S1: I mean. 307 00:13:59,490 --> 00:14:02,760 S2: As you say, it doesn't sound like a enough money 308 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:06,210 S2: to substantially change the dial. Obviously, what it does highlight 309 00:14:06,210 --> 00:14:10,140 S2: is the federal government's priority in supporting that industry in 310 00:14:10,140 --> 00:14:12,420 S2: particular and giving that industry a boost, which I think 311 00:14:12,420 --> 00:14:15,170 S2: is commendable. But. I don't think it's anything that's going 312 00:14:15,170 --> 00:14:19,250 S2: to really revolutionize the making of children's TV programs here. 313 00:14:19,250 --> 00:14:21,290 S2: I mean, I was just thinking, wouldn't it be good, 314 00:14:21,290 --> 00:14:23,960 S2: like back to the days of Nickelodeon, except without what 315 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:28,130 S2: we now know about Nickelodeon or all those kid shows 316 00:14:28,130 --> 00:14:29,450 S2: we grew up in, it would be great to see 317 00:14:29,450 --> 00:14:32,060 S2: them all. I think obviously Bluey has been, you know, 318 00:14:32,060 --> 00:14:37,250 S2: shown the potential for that market not only here but abroad. So, um, yeah, 319 00:14:37,250 --> 00:14:39,500 S2: I mean, I think there's, I think there's room for 320 00:14:39,500 --> 00:14:42,980 S2: growth there. And this is a good sign for that industry. 321 00:14:42,980 --> 00:14:44,900 S1: Yeah. And Bluey is certainly doing great in terms of 322 00:14:44,900 --> 00:14:48,110 S1: representation of cattle dogs in suburban Brisbane. But you know, 323 00:14:48,110 --> 00:14:50,720 S1: there's a lot, a lot more there to tap into. 324 00:14:50,750 --> 00:14:54,860 S2: Oh my gosh. This is the farming episode. Everything comes 325 00:14:54,860 --> 00:14:56,000 S2: back to the farm. 326 00:14:56,450 --> 00:14:58,970 S1: The content farms that we toil in, you know, everything's 327 00:14:58,970 --> 00:15:01,910 S1: about farming. Um, and then finally, I think the other 328 00:15:01,910 --> 00:15:04,460 S1: thing just to to to touch on live music, which 329 00:15:04,490 --> 00:15:07,250 S1: again we've spoken about again and again and just Australian 330 00:15:07,250 --> 00:15:11,300 S1: music more generally facing serious challenges here, the government has 331 00:15:11,300 --> 00:15:14,270 S1: extended a grant, this time worth nearly $9 million, to 332 00:15:14,270 --> 00:15:16,790 S1: help support live music. That's money that can go to 333 00:15:16,790 --> 00:15:19,250 S1: festivals and venues to help put on shows. And I 334 00:15:19,250 --> 00:15:24,380 S1: guess similar to the kids TV cash injection, it's recognising 335 00:15:24,380 --> 00:15:28,100 S1: that there are problems and it's putting some money into them. 336 00:15:28,460 --> 00:15:32,180 S1: It just sort of feels like and maybe we're a 337 00:15:32,180 --> 00:15:34,970 S1: bit maybe not. Biased is not the right word, but 338 00:15:34,970 --> 00:15:38,390 S1: maybe more closely attuned to how severe these issues are, 339 00:15:38,390 --> 00:15:41,660 S1: because our jobs day in, day out involved talking to people, 340 00:15:41,660 --> 00:15:44,900 S1: making this kind of stuff, telling us about the challenges 341 00:15:44,900 --> 00:15:49,640 S1: of trying to get Australian artists broken in this country, internationally, 342 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,190 S1: what it's like to do so in in an environment 343 00:15:52,190 --> 00:15:57,500 S1: flooded by Spotify and YouTube, international companies have bought up 344 00:15:57,500 --> 00:15:59,930 S1: and basically owned most of the live music scene here 345 00:15:59,930 --> 00:16:03,350 S1: now and in TV land, the kinds of shows that 346 00:16:03,350 --> 00:16:07,850 S1: used to just provide jobs and incomes to every person 347 00:16:07,850 --> 00:16:10,910 S1: involved in the sector. They don't really exist anymore. People 348 00:16:10,910 --> 00:16:13,040 S1: work on shows for like 3 to 6 months and 349 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:15,230 S1: then are left for that. Like this is a big 350 00:16:15,230 --> 00:16:18,500 S1: fundamental transformation that has happened to the production of arts 351 00:16:18,500 --> 00:16:21,050 S1: and culture in this country, and it just feels like 352 00:16:21,050 --> 00:16:25,460 S1: it needs a very, very big wholesale thought through joined 353 00:16:25,460 --> 00:16:28,010 S1: up response that isn't quite there yet. And I'm not 354 00:16:28,010 --> 00:16:29,900 S1: trying to say that the government won't do that in 355 00:16:29,900 --> 00:16:32,810 S1: the future. They've got these reviews, they've got recommendations coming 356 00:16:32,810 --> 00:16:35,330 S1: out about things like streaming. But at this point in time, 357 00:16:35,330 --> 00:16:37,160 S1: it feels like this budget is a little bit more 358 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,280 S1: acknowledging there are problems and helping a little bit, but 359 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,650 S1: not really tackling it wholesale. Is that fair to say? 360 00:16:42,650 --> 00:16:44,840 S2: Yeah, I think that's fair. And like the cost of 361 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:49,609 S2: living crisis is obviously really affecting live music venues here. 362 00:16:49,610 --> 00:16:52,640 S2: I think some of the all arts organisations are struggling, 363 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:55,220 S2: but I think some of those with the older subscriber 364 00:16:55,220 --> 00:16:58,370 S2: bases are a bit more insulated, mainly because their demographic 365 00:16:58,370 --> 00:17:00,980 S2: do still have discretionary income. But a lot of young 366 00:17:00,980 --> 00:17:03,650 S2: people go to live music and live music festivals, and 367 00:17:03,650 --> 00:17:05,780 S2: that is kind of the first thing they will cut 368 00:17:05,780 --> 00:17:08,090 S2: off their list when they're trying to save money. So 369 00:17:08,090 --> 00:17:10,639 S2: I do think that that industry in particular needs a 370 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:12,890 S2: really helping hand. And as we've seen with things like 371 00:17:12,890 --> 00:17:16,609 S2: splendour being cancelled, it is kind of crumbling in many places. 372 00:17:16,609 --> 00:17:20,540 S1: Yeah, really important point, I think before we get into 373 00:17:20,540 --> 00:17:22,760 S1: Baby Reindeer and the other TV things, we wanted to 374 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:26,300 S1: discuss a couple of news things I wanted to run 375 00:17:26,300 --> 00:17:29,030 S1: through with you. Let's start in the world of music. 376 00:17:29,030 --> 00:17:32,690 S1: So last week when we were discussing Drake and Kendrick's beef, 377 00:17:32,690 --> 00:17:36,680 S1: I throw out a prediction that Kendrick's not like us, 378 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,220 S1: which is considered, I think, both the catchiest song and 379 00:17:40,220 --> 00:17:42,859 S1: probably most triumphant song in this beef. Well, sort of 380 00:17:42,859 --> 00:17:45,770 S1: the one that just, like, sealed the deal that he'd won, 381 00:17:45,770 --> 00:17:48,830 S1: predicted that that could go to number one on the 382 00:17:48,830 --> 00:17:53,030 S1: Billboard charts. Guess what, Mel? It debuted at number one 383 00:17:53,030 --> 00:17:54,710 S1: on the Billboard charts this week. 384 00:17:54,710 --> 00:17:57,350 S2: Wow. Taylor Swift, she's down bad. 385 00:17:57,350 --> 00:17:59,900 S1: She I mean, she is struggling. She is struggling. I'm 386 00:17:59,900 --> 00:18:03,380 S1: not that surprised. This song went ballistic. I personally have 387 00:18:03,380 --> 00:18:06,200 S1: played it like 3 to 400 times a day since 388 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:09,199 S1: it came out, and actually four of the top ten 389 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,500 S1: songs on the Billboard charts this week are Drake and 390 00:18:12,500 --> 00:18:15,470 S1: Kendrick diss tracks. Taylor Swift has gone from number one. 391 00:18:15,470 --> 00:18:17,780 S1: Her song fortnight with Post Malone all the way down 392 00:18:17,780 --> 00:18:21,020 S1: to number four. Hip hop's back, baby. 393 00:18:21,380 --> 00:18:24,290 S2: Wow. Okay, here's my hot take on this. Yes. Do 394 00:18:24,290 --> 00:18:27,920 S2: you think that because actually Taylor Swift is a bit 395 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,230 S2: of a part of their beef, right. Like, oh, that's true. 396 00:18:30,230 --> 00:18:32,780 S2: Singing about Taylor Swift. One of the songs is called 397 00:18:32,810 --> 00:18:35,480 S2: Tailor Made. They're kind of fighting over Who's better Bros 398 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,330 S2: with Taylor, and they're using Taylor to diss each other 399 00:18:38,330 --> 00:18:42,380 S2: about their record release dates. Are the Swifties sending them up? 400 00:18:42,380 --> 00:18:45,919 S1: Okay, so immediately, man, that is no. And secondly, in 401 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,290 S1: my response to that is, I can't believe you're trying 402 00:18:48,290 --> 00:18:51,290 S1: to make this about Taylor Swift. But but but to 403 00:18:51,290 --> 00:18:53,420 S1: your credit, yeah, that is the that is, I guess, 404 00:18:53,420 --> 00:18:56,959 S1: the testament to how pervasive Taylor Swift is in our 405 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,500 S1: modern era of culture. She has worked with Drake in 406 00:19:00,500 --> 00:19:04,250 S1: ads before for like, Apple Music. Kendrick featured on her song. 407 00:19:04,250 --> 00:19:06,830 S1: You talked about Jack Antonoff earlier, her main producer. He 408 00:19:06,830 --> 00:19:10,880 S1: produced 616 and an A, one of the tracks from Kendrick, 409 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:13,459 S1: you can't escape the Taylor verse even when you think you've. 410 00:19:13,930 --> 00:19:15,970 S1: The tale of us by getting into the rap world. 411 00:19:15,970 --> 00:19:19,929 S1: So look, begrudgingly, I might have to hand you that 412 00:19:19,930 --> 00:19:21,160 S1: one a little bit. 413 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,590 S2: I am surprised that I thought. I thought maybe we 414 00:19:23,590 --> 00:19:26,050 S2: would see 1 or 2 songs up there. I am 415 00:19:26,050 --> 00:19:28,300 S2: surprised by how many, mainly because I thought people would 416 00:19:28,300 --> 00:19:31,270 S2: be reading about the feud, but I didn't think as 417 00:19:31,270 --> 00:19:34,300 S2: many people would be actively seeking out the songs and 418 00:19:34,300 --> 00:19:36,670 S2: then listening to them a lot, particularly as it went 419 00:19:36,670 --> 00:19:38,830 S2: on and on. So yeah, I was kind of surprised. 420 00:19:38,830 --> 00:19:41,229 S1: I think that's what makes this beef quite unique in 421 00:19:41,230 --> 00:19:44,860 S1: the history of beefs is just the availability of music. 422 00:19:44,859 --> 00:19:48,040 S1: Now in the rapid fire way they're being released. Some 423 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:50,920 S1: of these songs have got over 100 million streams on Spotify, 424 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:54,520 S1: in YouTube, and it's so easy now to go from 425 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:57,850 S1: listening to one to then listening to the other, to 426 00:19:57,850 --> 00:20:01,210 S1: listening to the one that's response to that one. It's really, 427 00:20:01,210 --> 00:20:02,830 S1: really interesting. I don't think they're going to last in 428 00:20:02,830 --> 00:20:04,900 S1: the charts that long. I think this captured the pier 429 00:20:04,900 --> 00:20:07,540 S1: where everyone was really, really, really engaged. I think it 430 00:20:07,540 --> 00:20:10,450 S1: also says something about how a lot of people just 431 00:20:10,450 --> 00:20:14,679 S1: did not fuck with the tortured poets department. Taylor's songs 432 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:17,440 S1: tend to stick around for a bit, but the fact 433 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,470 S1: that she's just got one fortnight clinging on and that 434 00:20:20,470 --> 00:20:24,730 S1: sort of slipping away says something about the, I guess, 435 00:20:24,730 --> 00:20:27,340 S1: how how largely that album is going to loom in 436 00:20:27,340 --> 00:20:29,710 S1: pop culture. It doesn't seem very largely. 437 00:20:30,070 --> 00:20:32,230 S2: And did Macklemore ride this wave all the way to 438 00:20:32,230 --> 00:20:33,129 S2: the top to. 439 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,290 S1: Macklemore has not, I don't think I don't think that 440 00:20:35,290 --> 00:20:37,570 S1: song was released on streaming platforms. It might have just 441 00:20:37,570 --> 00:20:39,430 S1: made it onto YouTube, but there seems to be some 442 00:20:39,430 --> 00:20:41,680 S1: issue there with where you can listen to it. Most 443 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:43,540 S1: of those listeners seem to be happening on his Instagram, 444 00:20:43,540 --> 00:20:45,850 S1: which I don't believe I could be wrong. I don't 445 00:20:45,850 --> 00:20:49,690 S1: believe is, uh, captured when it comes to Billboard chart rankings. 446 00:20:49,690 --> 00:20:51,100 S2: Yeah, okay. Misty's mark. 447 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,190 S1: He is in Australia right now. He's playing a bunch 448 00:20:54,190 --> 00:20:56,830 S1: of sold out shows. He just, uh, came from Sydney 449 00:20:56,830 --> 00:21:01,750 S1: where he popped in to the, uh, Sydney, uh, pro-Palestine encampments. Uh, 450 00:21:01,750 --> 00:21:04,629 S1: it's obviously he's associated with that campaign now after releasing 451 00:21:04,630 --> 00:21:07,990 S1: the protest song last week and he's in Melbourne. In fact, 452 00:21:07,990 --> 00:21:10,570 S1: I'm down to go see him at Rod Laver Arena 453 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,030 S1: tonight playing a bunch of sold out shows there, which 454 00:21:13,030 --> 00:21:15,760 S1: will be, uh, fun to check out. Um, Mel, there's 455 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,070 S1: one other music thing I wanted to touch on, uh, 456 00:21:18,070 --> 00:21:21,159 S1: when Beyonce released her album that we spoke about earlier 457 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,159 S1: this year, one of the goals, she was quite direct, uh, 458 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,250 S1: of that project was to try and reclaim the black 459 00:21:27,250 --> 00:21:30,550 S1: history of country music. She collaborated with a bunch of 460 00:21:30,550 --> 00:21:34,899 S1: black country artists, including Virginia artist Shaboozey. He was featured 461 00:21:34,900 --> 00:21:37,899 S1: on Spaghetti and Sweet Honey Bacon off her album Cowboy 462 00:21:37,900 --> 00:21:41,260 S1: Carter or Beyonce. And she made history this week for 463 00:21:41,260 --> 00:21:43,840 S1: the first time ever, ever, in the history of the 464 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:49,150 S1: United States of America, two black country songs have gone 465 00:21:49,150 --> 00:21:53,109 S1: number one consecutively on the country charts. That happened when 466 00:21:53,109 --> 00:21:58,000 S1: Beyonce's Texas Hold'em was replaced this week by Showbiz's latest single, 467 00:21:58,000 --> 00:21:58,840 S1: a bar song. 468 00:21:59,619 --> 00:22:02,920 UU: Summer Pull Me Up, a double shot of whiskey named 469 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:07,149 UU: on me. Daniel's got a history. There's a party downtown 470 00:22:07,150 --> 00:22:10,840 UU: near fifth Street. Everybody at the bar get tipsy. 471 00:22:17,380 --> 00:22:21,610 S1: It's a bar song in brackets. Tipsy is an interpolation 472 00:22:21,609 --> 00:22:25,359 S1: of rapid J. Korn's 2004 track tipsy. Do you remember 473 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:27,010 S1: that track from The club? Yeah I do. 474 00:22:27,369 --> 00:22:33,969 UU: Everybody in the club insists that everybody in the club 475 00:22:33,970 --> 00:22:34,600 UU: getting tipsy. 476 00:22:36,910 --> 00:22:38,770 S1: Jaquan kind of like a one hit wonder, but that 477 00:22:38,770 --> 00:22:41,649 S1: song was very, very, very popular. Uh, features in the 478 00:22:41,650 --> 00:22:44,229 S1: soundtracks of a bunch of movies from that time as well. 479 00:22:44,230 --> 00:22:47,050 S1: Jaquan is from Missouri, so there is like a nice 480 00:22:47,050 --> 00:22:50,650 S1: southern sort of crossover there as well. I really like 481 00:22:50,650 --> 00:22:52,869 S1: this song, a bar song. It feels like very fun, 482 00:22:52,869 --> 00:22:56,380 S1: modern like, like country that is resonating with people for 483 00:22:56,380 --> 00:22:59,920 S1: a reason. It's nice to see Shaboozey throw some respect 484 00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:03,010 S1: to Jaquan to leverage the Beyonce collab into doing this. 485 00:23:03,010 --> 00:23:07,090 S1: This is a pretty big moment for music, I guess 486 00:23:07,090 --> 00:23:09,400 S1: is Beyonce said, I want to do this and she 487 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,460 S1: seemingly has. That's a pretty strong testament to her power. 488 00:23:12,460 --> 00:23:15,700 S2: Yeah. It's huge. Um, it's a great song and I do, 489 00:23:15,700 --> 00:23:17,949 S2: I think when you know, not that long ago when 490 00:23:17,950 --> 00:23:19,840 S2: we were sitting here talking about all of Thomas Mitchell's 491 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,710 S2: favorite artists, Luke Combs, Morgan Wallen, you know, we were 492 00:23:23,710 --> 00:23:28,060 S2: talking about how it was still a very male white 493 00:23:28,060 --> 00:23:33,610 S2: area and how fantastic to see people of color, male, female, 494 00:23:33,609 --> 00:23:35,619 S2: kind of on the top of that list. And I 495 00:23:35,619 --> 00:23:38,350 S2: really I'm really interested to see where country goes and 496 00:23:38,350 --> 00:23:42,820 S2: how these sounds keep being interpolated and made anew and changed. 497 00:23:42,820 --> 00:23:45,219 S2: So I think this is great and pretty exciting. And 498 00:23:45,220 --> 00:23:48,010 S2: I will say, like, I think that people get deterred 499 00:23:48,010 --> 00:23:50,889 S2: when they think of it as Beyonce's country album. And people, 500 00:23:50,890 --> 00:23:53,470 S2: I think people just have this image of white and stale, 501 00:23:53,470 --> 00:23:57,070 S2: the country, and it's just not that anymore. And Waxahatchee, 502 00:23:57,070 --> 00:23:58,659 S2: when we were talking about her, kind of proved that 503 00:23:58,660 --> 00:24:01,240 S2: point as well. But I would say give these musicians 504 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,909 S2: a chance. Don't be deterred by this country label, because 505 00:24:03,910 --> 00:24:06,400 S2: it doesn't really mean what it once meant. 506 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,919 S1: Absolutely, absolutely. And like there is we talked about it 507 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,820 S1: on our episode discussing that album, such a long history 508 00:24:12,820 --> 00:24:15,940 S1: of black artists in the country genre. But this current 509 00:24:15,940 --> 00:24:21,880 S1: phase of. Really significant chart success and conversations around who 510 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,940 S1: gets to be counted as country. You can sort of 511 00:24:24,940 --> 00:24:27,550 S1: pin back to Lil NAS X, Old Town Road, and 512 00:24:27,550 --> 00:24:31,510 S1: the fact that that forced this conversation, that's a queer 513 00:24:31,540 --> 00:24:36,910 S1: black rapper forcing his way into the country charts, then 514 00:24:36,910 --> 00:24:40,270 S1: Beyonce bringing it all together. Now Shaboozey doing this. It's 515 00:24:40,270 --> 00:24:42,430 S1: kind of wild that it's not even in our lifetime. 516 00:24:42,430 --> 00:24:44,740 S1: In like the last 6 or 7 years, there has 517 00:24:44,740 --> 00:24:47,800 S1: been this massive shift in what has been one of 518 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:52,930 S1: the most white and generally considered conservative genres to have 519 00:24:52,930 --> 00:24:56,320 S1: ever existed. It's really, really interesting to see unfold. 520 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,330 S2: Yeah, and I kind of love it that, um, because 521 00:24:58,330 --> 00:25:00,580 S2: it was that Beyonce song. Was it daddy. 522 00:25:00,580 --> 00:25:01,149 S1: Lessons? 523 00:25:01,150 --> 00:25:02,980 S2: Yeah, yeah. I kind of love the idea that all 524 00:25:02,980 --> 00:25:05,020 S2: of this is motivated by the revenge of that not 525 00:25:05,020 --> 00:25:07,300 S2: being able to be on the country list. I mean. 526 00:25:07,300 --> 00:25:09,520 S1: Yeah, Cowboy Carter kind of her diss track at the 527 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,919 S1: entire country genre. And it's working. 528 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:12,910 S2: Yeah. So good. 529 00:25:23,340 --> 00:25:25,800 S1: Let's get into baby reindeer. 530 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:28,680 S4: You say this woman stalking you? 531 00:25:28,710 --> 00:25:30,210 S5: Yeah, like six months, maybe. 532 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:31,530 S4: Why did it take you so long to report it? 533 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:32,550 S4: I think she needs help. 534 00:25:32,550 --> 00:25:35,970 S5: She comes to my work, my house. She sends me emails, like, 535 00:25:35,970 --> 00:25:36,720 S5: all the time. 536 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:41,880 S4: Really threatening towards you. I wouldn't say that's particularly threatening. 537 00:25:44,369 --> 00:25:46,260 S6: There's a reason you're keeping her around, and maybe it's 538 00:25:46,260 --> 00:25:47,340 S6: what she gives you. 539 00:25:48,510 --> 00:25:50,369 S7: But really manly hands, haven't you? 540 00:25:50,850 --> 00:25:54,210 S1: A quick recap for anyone who hasn't yet seen the show, 541 00:25:54,210 --> 00:25:57,360 S1: but it's been number one on Netflix in Australia and 542 00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,940 S1: around the world for a number of weeks now. So 543 00:25:59,940 --> 00:26:02,550 S1: I'm assuming most people listening to this have seen it. 544 00:26:02,580 --> 00:26:06,810 S1: The show came out of nowhere. It blew up on Netflix. 545 00:26:06,810 --> 00:26:09,689 S1: Comedian Richard Gadd based this show that he wrote and 546 00:26:09,690 --> 00:26:12,960 S1: stars in on his own real experience of being stalked 547 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,350 S1: by a woman. The show looks at that, how he 548 00:26:16,380 --> 00:26:20,070 S1: handled it, as well as the broader issue of assault 549 00:26:20,070 --> 00:26:24,720 S1: and trauma. It sparked an enormous amount of conversation for 550 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,020 S1: a few different reasons. Every episode of the show opens 551 00:26:28,020 --> 00:26:31,590 S1: with Netflix kind of caption saying that this is based 552 00:26:31,590 --> 00:26:35,429 S1: on a true story. Gadd has said that it's based 553 00:26:35,430 --> 00:26:39,270 S1: on things that happened to him. It's about real people, 554 00:26:39,780 --> 00:26:42,600 S1: and a lot of the debate about the show has 555 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,740 S1: been around how much detail was provided about the characters 556 00:26:46,740 --> 00:26:49,590 S1: in the show, how easy it was for some people 557 00:26:49,590 --> 00:26:54,120 S1: online to seemingly find and identify who these characters are 558 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:58,440 S1: based on. In some instances, they seem to have identified 559 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:02,010 S1: the wrong person, but the conversation has become so much 560 00:27:02,010 --> 00:27:04,680 S1: bigger than just what you see in the six episodes 561 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,850 S1: on Netflix and sparked really, really fascinating debate around the 562 00:27:08,850 --> 00:27:12,480 S1: responsibility of Richard Gadd in making the show, whether he 563 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,550 S1: should have changed details to make it harder for people 564 00:27:14,550 --> 00:27:17,550 S1: to find them, the culpability of audiences in wanting to 565 00:27:17,550 --> 00:27:20,189 S1: find these people and then sort of holding them, pointing 566 00:27:20,190 --> 00:27:22,619 S1: at them and sending them death threats in some instances. 567 00:27:22,650 --> 00:27:26,520 S1: Netflix is responsibility in making a show based on not 568 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,880 S1: just a comedian's real life trauma, but perhaps their responsibility 569 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,910 S1: in making sure enough details would change to avoid the situation. 570 00:27:32,940 --> 00:27:34,590 S1: There's a lot to talk about. I think this has 571 00:27:34,590 --> 00:27:37,980 S1: become the big TV controversy of the year, if not 572 00:27:37,980 --> 00:27:40,170 S1: the last couple of years, but I wanted to start 573 00:27:40,170 --> 00:27:44,760 S1: by asking you, did you see the interview with the 574 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,640 S1: person who's being dubbed the real life Martha? Martha is 575 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,389 S1: the stalker in the show. The woman is called Fiona Harvey. Uh, 576 00:27:51,390 --> 00:27:55,800 S1: that's who has been identified, and she's certainly self-identified herself 577 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,080 S1: as the person Martha is based on. Did you see 578 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,930 S1: her interview with Piers Morgan this week? 579 00:28:00,930 --> 00:28:02,940 S2: Oh, man, I saw it. As much as you can 580 00:28:02,940 --> 00:28:04,980 S2: see it when you have, like, your hands over your 581 00:28:04,980 --> 00:28:08,430 S2: eyes as you're watching something, it was like I found 582 00:28:08,430 --> 00:28:10,740 S2: it quite hard to to watch. And I kept thinking, 583 00:28:10,740 --> 00:28:12,900 S2: you know how in Harry Potter there are those like 584 00:28:12,900 --> 00:28:16,050 S2: paintings and the subjects of the painting every so often, 585 00:28:16,050 --> 00:28:18,570 S2: like leap out of their frame into, like, you know, 586 00:28:18,570 --> 00:28:21,360 S2: into the real world and into different situations. It was 587 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,709 S2: just like watching this, like, fictional thing and real life 588 00:28:25,710 --> 00:28:28,379 S2: kind of become completely intermingled. And even on the screen 589 00:28:28,380 --> 00:28:32,070 S2: when they were like cutting together Fiona, Harvey and Martha scenes, 590 00:28:32,220 --> 00:28:35,040 S2: it was like just quite an odd experience to watch. 591 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:36,929 S2: And the whole time I kept thinking, well, this is 592 00:28:36,930 --> 00:28:39,630 S2: the Netflix sequel to Baby Reindeer, isn't it? That we're 593 00:28:39,630 --> 00:28:41,220 S2: seeing this would be the second season? 594 00:28:41,220 --> 00:28:42,930 S1: Oh my God, totally, totally. It could have been a 595 00:28:42,930 --> 00:28:44,160 S1: scene from a show. 596 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,370 S2: Yeah, yeah, totally. Gad gad being a liar, the collapse 597 00:28:47,370 --> 00:28:49,590 S2: of the career. And it also just feels like such 598 00:28:49,590 --> 00:28:53,850 S2: a Martha and Donny thing to to get embroiled in. 599 00:28:53,850 --> 00:28:56,040 S2: I found it quite difficult to watch. What did you think? 600 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,140 S1: No, I completely agree. And I guess, like, you know, 601 00:28:58,140 --> 00:29:00,540 S1: Piers Morgan isn't necessarily who I go to when I 602 00:29:00,540 --> 00:29:03,450 S1: think about journalistic ethics in talking about this. You know, 603 00:29:03,450 --> 00:29:06,510 S1: she was paid for her interview. She's now said she 604 00:29:06,510 --> 00:29:09,360 S1: wasn't paid enough and she wants like £1 million. I 605 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,120 S1: think she was paid like £250. And Piers Morgan says, oh, 606 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:13,860 S1: but we also paid for her to get a haircut 607 00:29:13,860 --> 00:29:15,690 S1: and we gave her a nice car to and from 608 00:29:15,690 --> 00:29:19,200 S1: the studio. So there is a whole strange element around 609 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:23,040 S1: the ethics of chequebook journalism as well. But, you know, 610 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,120 S1: this person clearly has various issues, it's fair to say, 611 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:31,200 S1: and sort of mining them for content in a in 612 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,130 S1: a Piers Morgan YouTube show didn't really feel like great. 613 00:29:35,130 --> 00:29:37,800 S1: It's worth pointing out that she she denies some of 614 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,550 S1: the specifics of what her character Martha is said to 615 00:29:41,550 --> 00:29:44,310 S1: have done. She says I didn't stalk him. I didn't 616 00:29:44,310 --> 00:29:46,770 S1: interact with him for as long as the show suggests. 617 00:29:46,770 --> 00:29:49,320 S1: I did email him and tweet him, but only a 618 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,930 S1: handful of times, she says. And this is a really 619 00:29:51,930 --> 00:29:55,590 S1: crucial one. The show says Martha was like sentenced for 620 00:29:55,590 --> 00:29:59,250 S1: committing a crime around stalking. She says that never happened 621 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,360 S1: to her, so there's a lot there. Given that the 622 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,990 S1: show is explicit in saying that this is based on 623 00:30:06,990 --> 00:30:10,980 S1: a true story, Gad says that he changed details to 624 00:30:10,980 --> 00:30:13,410 S1: make it harder for people to find out who these 625 00:30:13,410 --> 00:30:15,960 S1: characters were based on. He also said right from the start, 626 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,860 S1: he didn't want people to do that, but. A lot 627 00:30:19,860 --> 00:30:21,420 S1: of people have made the point and I kind of 628 00:30:21,420 --> 00:30:24,000 S1: agree with it. He didn't change that many details. People 629 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,450 S1: found Fiona Harvey because she, like Martha, is an older 630 00:30:27,450 --> 00:30:30,210 S1: Scottish woman. She looks very similar to the character. She's 631 00:30:30,210 --> 00:30:33,870 S1: also a lawyer. She has been previously accused of harassing 632 00:30:33,870 --> 00:30:37,620 S1: other people and stalking them. She frequented the bar where 633 00:30:37,620 --> 00:30:40,140 S1: Gad used to work. She visited him at one of 634 00:30:40,140 --> 00:30:43,350 S1: his comedy shows, and people found tweets that she'd made 635 00:30:43,350 --> 00:30:46,500 S1: that were very, very similar to lines of dialogue that 636 00:30:46,500 --> 00:30:50,340 S1: the character was given in the show. So leaving aside 637 00:30:50,340 --> 00:30:52,950 S1: the weirdness of the Morgan interview, which I just don't 638 00:30:52,950 --> 00:30:57,570 S1: really think reflects well on anyone involved, do you think 639 00:30:57,570 --> 00:30:59,460 S1: Gad changed enough on this one? 640 00:30:59,910 --> 00:31:01,950 S2: Oh, it's a really tough one. And it's a really 641 00:31:01,950 --> 00:31:06,810 S2: interesting one because I'm I mean, art has often been 642 00:31:06,810 --> 00:31:10,950 S2: based on real life experiences, right? And often people have 643 00:31:10,950 --> 00:31:13,500 S2: played a guessing game about who an artist's work is 644 00:31:13,500 --> 00:31:16,800 S2: about in any form. But I guess what's different here 645 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,040 S2: is the reach and scale of Netflix and the development 646 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,490 S2: of social media, and the kind of armchair detectives that 647 00:31:23,490 --> 00:31:27,900 S2: that have spawned. I'm hesitant to like, say that Gad 648 00:31:27,900 --> 00:31:31,170 S2: needed to change more because part of what people resonated 649 00:31:31,170 --> 00:31:34,500 S2: with was, I guess, what felt like the emotional honesty 650 00:31:34,530 --> 00:31:37,740 S2: of this, and that is why it was so powerful. Obviously, 651 00:31:37,740 --> 00:31:40,770 S2: him playing himself has added to all of that, but 652 00:31:40,770 --> 00:31:42,990 S2: at the same time, I obviously recognize that art has 653 00:31:42,990 --> 00:31:46,650 S2: real life consequences, so I'm not entirely sure what the 654 00:31:46,650 --> 00:31:49,680 S2: solution here is, but I know a lot of people 655 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,340 S2: were talking about whether Netflix kind of did enough, and 656 00:31:53,340 --> 00:31:56,760 S2: Gad has obviously spoken out a lot, saying that they've 657 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,880 S2: gone to great lengths to disguise her. I do find 658 00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:02,640 S2: it hard to think that Netflix wouldn't have covered themselves 659 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:07,260 S2: legally on this, because obviously in that interview, um, Fiona 660 00:32:07,260 --> 00:32:10,469 S2: Harvey was talking about potentially suing Netflix, but I do 661 00:32:10,470 --> 00:32:12,930 S2: find it hard to think that they wouldn't have done 662 00:32:12,930 --> 00:32:15,960 S2: their due diligence in terms of the legal side of this, 663 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,870 S2: but where the boundary is between recognizing someone and not 664 00:32:18,870 --> 00:32:20,850 S2: recognizing someone, I don't know if there is a clear 665 00:32:20,850 --> 00:32:22,680 S2: cut answer to that. I think it's a hard one. 666 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,050 S1: It's a really good point, and there's a lot of 667 00:32:25,050 --> 00:32:27,840 S1: different like facets to that specific question as well. So 668 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,710 S1: Netflix in Europe is headquartered in the Netherlands, which means 669 00:32:31,710 --> 00:32:35,670 S1: that it isn't subject at the moment to the UK 670 00:32:35,670 --> 00:32:38,850 S1: kind of media regulatory system. And there's been some conversation 671 00:32:38,850 --> 00:32:42,390 S1: from critics and commentators in the UK that the BBC 672 00:32:42,390 --> 00:32:44,160 S1: couldn't have gotten away with something like this. And in fact, 673 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,280 S1: there is legislation currently in the UK Parliament to try 674 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:52,590 S1: to bring Netflix within its media regulatory framework. So people 675 00:32:52,590 --> 00:32:55,440 S1: like Fiona Harvey could say, hey, I don't like the 676 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,710 S1: way that I was represented. Can I get some compensation 677 00:32:58,710 --> 00:33:00,180 S1: or do you have to change stuff for it? That's 678 00:33:00,180 --> 00:33:04,020 S1: like an ongoing issue. Netflix. It's also worth pointing out, 679 00:33:04,020 --> 00:33:07,980 S1: like has been in hot water for things around this before, uh, 680 00:33:07,980 --> 00:33:11,190 S1: when they released Monster The Jeffrey Dahmer Story about Jeffrey Dahmer, 681 00:33:11,220 --> 00:33:14,850 S1: they were criticized for making that show without the consent 682 00:33:14,850 --> 00:33:17,940 S1: of victims families. I think that was less a legal 683 00:33:17,940 --> 00:33:22,320 S1: issue and more a moral issue than Netflix policy. Chief 684 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,590 S1: Benjamin King was actually grilled about this in UK parliamentary 685 00:33:25,590 --> 00:33:27,990 S1: hearings last week. And it's interesting because he said, we 686 00:33:27,990 --> 00:33:31,229 S1: didn't want to anonymize the show or make it too generic, 687 00:33:31,230 --> 00:33:34,050 S1: to the point where it was no longer Richard Gad's story, 688 00:33:34,050 --> 00:33:37,560 S1: because that would undermine the intent behind the show. I 689 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:39,720 S1: personally wouldn't be comfortable with a world in which we 690 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,540 S1: decided it was better that Richard was silenced and not 691 00:33:42,540 --> 00:33:45,030 S1: allowed to tell the story. I kind of feel like 692 00:33:45,030 --> 00:33:47,160 S1: that sounds like a really good point, but then it 693 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:51,030 S1: is sort of these two drastically opposed options without any 694 00:33:51,030 --> 00:33:52,680 S1: consideration for what could happen in the middle. Like you 695 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,350 S1: could tell. And like lots of shows do this, you 696 00:33:55,350 --> 00:33:58,710 S1: could tell a very similar story where perhaps the character 697 00:33:58,710 --> 00:34:03,420 S1: doesn't have exactly the same traits down to their profession 698 00:34:03,420 --> 00:34:06,780 S1: and their nationality. There are ways to make these things 699 00:34:06,780 --> 00:34:10,920 S1: a little bit less obvious. When you're in an era 700 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:15,200 S1: where this is how people consume. TV and film and 701 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,450 S1: podcast and all these kinds of things. I kind of 702 00:34:17,450 --> 00:34:19,610 S1: think I feel less critical of Richard than I do 703 00:34:19,610 --> 00:34:22,040 S1: towards Netflix. I think, you know, he made this as 704 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,609 S1: a one person show for Edinburgh in 2019. He's like 705 00:34:25,610 --> 00:34:28,549 S1: maybe 100 people will come and see this show. It 706 00:34:28,550 --> 00:34:30,770 S1: doesn't live on in memory. You're not going to like 707 00:34:30,770 --> 00:34:33,650 S1: rewind and take a screenshot and see who can find 708 00:34:33,650 --> 00:34:36,290 S1: that looks like this person. And so he's told it 709 00:34:36,290 --> 00:34:39,890 S1: honestly and authentically to himself. He's written it. Netflix has 710 00:34:39,890 --> 00:34:42,500 S1: picked it up. I feel like it is on Netflix, 711 00:34:42,500 --> 00:34:45,649 S1: or it's on any company who is streaming and telling 712 00:34:45,650 --> 00:34:48,259 S1: this kind of story to then be like, okay, well, yeah, 713 00:34:48,260 --> 00:34:51,680 S1: the biggest TV platform that has ever existed in the 714 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,710 S1: history of the world, we've been in situations like this before. 715 00:34:54,710 --> 00:34:57,049 S1: Is it time to sit down and run the ruler 716 00:34:57,050 --> 00:35:00,140 S1: over all of this and say, have we done enough here? 717 00:35:00,140 --> 00:35:02,989 S1: And it seems like they just hadn't? And I think 718 00:35:02,989 --> 00:35:06,380 S1: it's interesting because even if Fiona Harvey, the quote unquote 719 00:35:06,380 --> 00:35:10,010 S1: real Martha, isn't able to successfully sue or, you know, 720 00:35:10,010 --> 00:35:12,799 S1: the show stays up or whatever she wants doesn't happen. 721 00:35:12,980 --> 00:35:15,049 S1: I kind of think this will change the way that 722 00:35:15,050 --> 00:35:16,940 S1: Netflix and other networks make shows like this. I just 723 00:35:16,940 --> 00:35:19,129 S1: think no one wants to be in like a quote 724 00:35:19,130 --> 00:35:24,350 S1: unquote baby reindeer situation again. And whether it's through regulatory 725 00:35:24,350 --> 00:35:28,550 S1: reform or just like policy changes at Netflix, which is 726 00:35:28,550 --> 00:35:31,190 S1: generally from people I talk to, they say that it's 727 00:35:31,190 --> 00:35:34,190 S1: much more lax than national broadcasters like the BBC and 728 00:35:34,190 --> 00:35:37,820 S1: the ABC, which, because they're public institutions, have such specific 729 00:35:37,820 --> 00:35:39,950 S1: editorial policies and guidelines about how you tell a story 730 00:35:39,950 --> 00:35:42,319 S1: like this. Netflix is a little bit more of a cowboy. 731 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,350 S1: I think that's probably likely to change, and I think 732 00:35:45,350 --> 00:35:48,200 S1: probably for the better, because they're the ones who make 733 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,629 S1: millions and millions, if not billions of dollars off these 734 00:35:50,630 --> 00:35:52,790 S1: kinds of stories, and a lot of people then just 735 00:35:52,790 --> 00:35:55,310 S1: become collateral damage. That makes sense. 736 00:35:55,310 --> 00:35:58,280 S2: Yeah, I think that's right. The amount of money involved 737 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,530 S2: in this and the amount of people getting rich off, 738 00:36:00,530 --> 00:36:02,960 S2: this is, I think, what kind of takes this into 739 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,089 S2: a different level, because just kind of thinking like, if 740 00:36:05,090 --> 00:36:07,730 S2: he had written a memoir about this, he kind of 741 00:36:07,730 --> 00:36:10,910 S2: could have said the same things, but the consequences would 742 00:36:10,910 --> 00:36:12,260 S2: not have been the same. Yeah. 743 00:36:12,260 --> 00:36:15,170 S1: Even if that memoir became a massive success and sold 744 00:36:15,170 --> 00:36:18,380 S1: 100,000 copies, which would be amazing for a memoir from 745 00:36:18,380 --> 00:36:20,750 S1: a comedian, that's a drop in the ocean compared to 746 00:36:20,750 --> 00:36:23,900 S1: the 60 million people it seems like who've watched this show. 747 00:36:23,900 --> 00:36:26,450 S2: Yeah, for sure. And like, I think Netflix didn't help 748 00:36:26,450 --> 00:36:28,850 S2: themselves by playing how up, how much of a true 749 00:36:28,850 --> 00:36:32,090 S2: story it was in every episode like that didn't help them, 750 00:36:32,090 --> 00:36:35,090 S2: because of course, a lot of people then will want 751 00:36:35,090 --> 00:36:38,359 S2: to investigate the true story, though I will say, I 752 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:41,480 S2: don't think obviously the name was going around in certain 753 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:45,590 S2: areas online, but I don't think Fiona Harvey was known 754 00:36:45,590 --> 00:36:48,380 S2: as a name generally until she put herself onto Piers 755 00:36:48,380 --> 00:36:51,200 S2: Morgan's show, because I think a lot of like the 756 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,200 S2: Daily Mail had interviewed her but didn't name her. So 757 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,710 S2: I actually think Fiona Harvey probably in a way also 758 00:36:57,710 --> 00:36:59,719 S2: and like she says, she did it to kind of, 759 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,960 S2: you know, to she needed to own the story now. But, 760 00:37:03,260 --> 00:37:06,200 S2: you know, maybe there's ways around that in terms of, 761 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,810 S2: you know, the ethics of media as well in playing 762 00:37:08,810 --> 00:37:09,950 S2: into this story. 763 00:37:09,950 --> 00:37:12,589 S1: Yeah. Well, we were talking about this, this a work 764 00:37:12,590 --> 00:37:17,270 S1: because there's another person involved in this, the alleged perpetrator. 765 00:37:17,270 --> 00:37:18,739 S1: If you see the show, there's a there's a person 766 00:37:18,739 --> 00:37:20,780 S1: in the show, again, based on a real incident who 767 00:37:20,780 --> 00:37:25,610 S1: does something very bad to Richard, which he assaults. Richard. Um, 768 00:37:25,610 --> 00:37:29,690 S1: and people thought they had found that person. Uh, and 769 00:37:29,690 --> 00:37:33,770 S1: they named them online. And that person then tweeted or 770 00:37:33,770 --> 00:37:37,220 S1: put on social media. Hey, I'm not. The person involved 771 00:37:37,219 --> 00:37:39,260 S1: in this. I'm not who the character is based on. 772 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:43,040 S1: I'm going to report any kind of threats made against 773 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,410 S1: me to the police. And then Richard also named that 774 00:37:45,410 --> 00:37:47,630 S1: person and said, hey, it's not this person. So that 775 00:37:47,630 --> 00:37:50,030 S1: person that identified themselves, we were talking at work. When 776 00:37:50,030 --> 00:37:51,770 S1: we cover this, do we name that person? I sort 777 00:37:51,770 --> 00:37:54,020 S1: of leant against doing so. This is why I keep 778 00:37:54,020 --> 00:37:56,390 S1: saying that person not saying their name, even though you 779 00:37:56,390 --> 00:37:58,910 S1: can find them on Reddit or on social media, because 780 00:37:58,910 --> 00:38:02,000 S1: it's one thing for someone to to say something on 781 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,250 S1: a thread or even on their own Instagram. It's another 782 00:38:04,250 --> 00:38:07,970 S1: when a big, reputable media institution or someone like Piers 783 00:38:07,969 --> 00:38:11,930 S1: Morgan blasts that out to millions and millions more people. 784 00:38:11,930 --> 00:38:13,700 S1: And particularly in the case where this person is saying 785 00:38:13,700 --> 00:38:16,100 S1: I'm not identified, it feels a bit shit to be 786 00:38:16,100 --> 00:38:18,980 S1: like name of person here says they are not the 787 00:38:18,980 --> 00:38:21,469 S1: bad guy from baby reindeer. Well, I wasn't even thinking 788 00:38:21,469 --> 00:38:22,910 S1: about them. And now I am because you've told me 789 00:38:22,910 --> 00:38:23,480 S1: their name. 790 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:27,590 S2: Yeah, it's so complicated. And like, I guess you gave 791 00:38:27,590 --> 00:38:29,690 S2: a few examples of when this has happened before in 792 00:38:29,690 --> 00:38:33,200 S2: terms of shows based on real life experiences and people 793 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:34,940 S2: going down the rabbit hole of trying to find them out. 794 00:38:34,940 --> 00:38:37,130 S2: There are so many where it hasn't happened, like I 795 00:38:37,130 --> 00:38:39,410 S2: think I may, I May Destroy You, which was based 796 00:38:39,410 --> 00:38:41,990 S2: on Michaela Cole's own experience, or she has been a 797 00:38:41,989 --> 00:38:44,390 S2: survivor of sexual assault. You didn't see people trying to 798 00:38:44,390 --> 00:38:47,839 S2: figure out who that perpetrator was. I mean, it's just 799 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,020 S2: such a hard line between when you think someone's going 800 00:38:51,020 --> 00:38:53,330 S2: to be recognizable and when you think a show is 801 00:38:53,330 --> 00:38:54,920 S2: going to take off to an extent that people are 802 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,220 S2: going to try and dock certain characters in it, I 803 00:38:58,219 --> 00:39:00,200 S2: do think like, yes, Netflix can do more, but I 804 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,779 S2: do also think there are limits to what they can control, 805 00:39:02,780 --> 00:39:05,270 S2: particularly when social media kind of has a life of 806 00:39:05,270 --> 00:39:05,899 S2: its own. 807 00:39:05,900 --> 00:39:07,340 S1: I think that's a really good point, and I think 808 00:39:07,340 --> 00:39:09,470 S1: that sort of brings us to the other part of 809 00:39:09,469 --> 00:39:11,840 S1: all this is like the audience or the people involved 810 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,960 S1: who are doing this kind of thing. I, you know, 811 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:16,850 S1: it's not my job to like lecture people or anything 812 00:39:16,850 --> 00:39:18,740 S1: like that. We live in a moment in which this 813 00:39:18,739 --> 00:39:22,160 S1: is how things work, whether it's you're you're laughing because 814 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:23,540 S1: it is kind of my job to like. 815 00:39:23,660 --> 00:39:24,230 S8: Yeah. 816 00:39:24,230 --> 00:39:26,330 S2: I was waiting for the here comes the lecture. 817 00:39:26,810 --> 00:39:28,520 S1: No, I guess what I'm trying to say is, as 818 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:33,230 S1: much as I wish people weren't turning every true crime 819 00:39:33,230 --> 00:39:37,250 S1: podcast or every TV show, documentary or fictional or whatever 820 00:39:37,250 --> 00:39:41,300 S1: into a real life, like Reddit or Facebook group where 821 00:39:41,300 --> 00:39:44,180 S1: they think they can solve these mysteries. As much as 822 00:39:44,180 --> 00:39:46,160 S1: I wish that wasn't happening because of the obvious negative 823 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:47,990 S1: consequences of that, when they get it wrong, which they 824 00:39:47,989 --> 00:39:50,000 S1: often do, that's the world we live in. So we 825 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,790 S1: just have to accept that's what it is interested in 826 00:39:52,790 --> 00:39:54,859 S1: thinking about. Like why that is what it is like. 827 00:39:54,860 --> 00:39:58,670 S1: Why do people feel the compulsion to do that? And 828 00:39:58,670 --> 00:40:01,009 S1: a lot was made about the fact that everyone wanted 829 00:40:01,010 --> 00:40:03,950 S1: to figure out who Martha was. They didn't want to 830 00:40:03,950 --> 00:40:08,330 S1: figure out who the perpetrator who assaulted Richard was. I 831 00:40:08,330 --> 00:40:11,390 S1: think dad does go to the fact that, like, maybe 832 00:40:11,390 --> 00:40:15,170 S1: seeing a woman in that kind of threatening role is 833 00:40:15,170 --> 00:40:17,060 S1: not something we're used to. And so that was seen 834 00:40:17,060 --> 00:40:19,460 S1: as being a bit strange and like, let's figure out 835 00:40:19,460 --> 00:40:21,680 S1: who this person is. They're so wacky and there are 836 00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,739 S1: so many breadcrumbs for us to follow here. But it 837 00:40:24,739 --> 00:40:27,799 S1: has just become part of how so many pieces of 838 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:32,359 S1: culture are dissected. And it seems reductive to me to 839 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,900 S1: not just engage with the work, like Richard Gadd is 840 00:40:35,900 --> 00:40:39,020 S1: making a story that he has said from day one 841 00:40:39,020 --> 00:40:42,890 S1: is not about saying this person's bad, it's about understanding 842 00:40:42,890 --> 00:40:45,830 S1: why people would do something like this. And he says 843 00:40:45,830 --> 00:40:48,260 S1: she's a victim in this as much as I am 844 00:40:48,260 --> 00:40:51,109 S1: because of her mental health and what she's gone through 845 00:40:51,110 --> 00:40:55,069 S1: and the ongoing ramifications of trauma, that's what the show 846 00:40:55,070 --> 00:40:57,739 S1: is about. And that's interesting conversations you and I have 847 00:40:57,739 --> 00:40:59,930 S1: had on the show with Thomas, people are having, you know, 848 00:40:59,930 --> 00:41:02,930 S1: all around them, they watch the show. But then on 849 00:41:02,930 --> 00:41:06,080 S1: Reddit in particular and some other forums, all that stripped 850 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,510 S1: away and it's just, hey, I found like this new 851 00:41:08,510 --> 00:41:11,089 S1: story from this year that links this person to that person. 852 00:41:11,450 --> 00:41:14,270 S1: A couple of questions for you. Like, how much culpability 853 00:41:14,270 --> 00:41:16,009 S1: do we have in all of this? And why do 854 00:41:16,010 --> 00:41:18,650 S1: you think people can't stop doing that? 855 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,469 S2: Yeah, I, I have to say, and maybe it's because 856 00:41:21,469 --> 00:41:24,859 S2: I think, as previously discussed, everything's a lie, but I've 857 00:41:24,860 --> 00:41:28,819 S2: never watched a show and ever felt the need to 858 00:41:28,820 --> 00:41:31,430 S2: then go and see whether it's real, like watching this show. 859 00:41:31,460 --> 00:41:33,440 S2: The only thing I looked up was Richard Gadd, because 860 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:35,120 S2: I wanted to know what else he had made or like. 861 00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:37,520 S2: I think even back to watching The Crown, all these 862 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:39,740 S2: fact and fiction, what's true, what's not, I don't really care. 863 00:41:39,739 --> 00:41:42,950 S2: I just presume that everything that's created comes through someone's lens, 864 00:41:42,950 --> 00:41:45,830 S2: so someone else is definitely going to disagree with it. 865 00:41:45,830 --> 00:41:49,640 S2: So I haven't quite ever felt that need to see 866 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,850 S2: whether something is true, because I think there's obviously a 867 00:41:52,850 --> 00:41:57,379 S2: veracity in approximating the truth or a truth for a person. Um, 868 00:41:57,380 --> 00:42:00,890 S2: why do people do it? I think maybe it adds something. 869 00:42:00,890 --> 00:42:03,049 S2: It obviously adds something to the show for a lot 870 00:42:03,050 --> 00:42:06,650 S2: of people, for the fact that knowing it is real 871 00:42:06,650 --> 00:42:09,830 S2: or based in truth obviously adds something to the show 872 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,530 S2: for a lot of people. And then I do think 873 00:42:12,530 --> 00:42:14,660 S2: it's just easy once you're in that kind of rabbit 874 00:42:14,660 --> 00:42:17,330 S2: hole of looking up what's real and what's not. So 875 00:42:17,330 --> 00:42:19,700 S2: then kind of continue doing that and go down the 876 00:42:19,700 --> 00:42:22,760 S2: loop of exploring the real lives of everyone. Maybe it's 877 00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,609 S2: that voyeurism that social media has kind of trained us 878 00:42:25,610 --> 00:42:28,310 S2: in the kind of looking into other people's lives, and 879 00:42:28,310 --> 00:42:30,470 S2: it is almost like, I mean, we were talking before 880 00:42:30,469 --> 00:42:33,259 S2: about there being a second season to this. Um, it 881 00:42:33,260 --> 00:42:35,839 S2: is almost like an addendum to the shows like you watch. 882 00:42:36,070 --> 00:42:38,350 S2: The show. And then it's not just about watching the show, 883 00:42:38,350 --> 00:42:41,500 S2: it's then about researching it. It's kind of becomes part 884 00:42:41,500 --> 00:42:44,469 S2: of the process of watching television, I think for people. 885 00:42:44,469 --> 00:42:46,060 S2: Do you ever do it? Are you a looker up 886 00:42:46,060 --> 00:42:46,930 S2: or of truth? 887 00:42:46,930 --> 00:42:48,130 S1: Well, no. First I want to say I think, I 888 00:42:48,130 --> 00:42:51,370 S1: think that's a really great explanation as to the appeal 889 00:42:51,370 --> 00:42:53,710 S1: of it, because some of that does ring true for me. Like, I, 890 00:42:53,710 --> 00:42:57,250 S1: I don't I don't feel the urge to do it 891 00:42:57,250 --> 00:42:58,990 S1: in a show like this. Like again, like I was 892 00:42:58,989 --> 00:43:01,120 S1: kind of curious as to Richard Gadds back story, but 893 00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:02,710 S1: it didn't occur to me to be like, oh, it's 894 00:43:02,710 --> 00:43:05,410 S1: based on a true story. Who are these bad people involved? 895 00:43:05,410 --> 00:43:08,049 S1: But I, I enjoyed doing it. Like if I'm watching 896 00:43:08,050 --> 00:43:12,400 S1: a historical fiction show or something like The Dropout, you know, 897 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:16,060 S1: which is based on real like, you know, journalism that 898 00:43:16,060 --> 00:43:18,340 S1: has happened or a book or whatever, and being like, oh, cool. 899 00:43:18,340 --> 00:43:20,950 S1: Like what context can I add? Like, what have they 900 00:43:20,950 --> 00:43:24,730 S1: changed from the book to the screen? Because like you said, 901 00:43:24,730 --> 00:43:27,219 S1: everyone's changing everything. Everyone's making this with different intents, and 902 00:43:27,219 --> 00:43:30,100 S1: it's sometimes interesting to figure out what they left behind 903 00:43:30,100 --> 00:43:32,650 S1: or what they tweaked that I do. I think that's 904 00:43:32,650 --> 00:43:35,859 S1: a pretty normal thing for people to do, but I think, yeah, 905 00:43:35,890 --> 00:43:39,730 S1: trying to turn everything into a true crime series is 906 00:43:39,730 --> 00:43:41,620 S1: where things seem to have gotten a little bit out 907 00:43:41,620 --> 00:43:44,200 S1: of hand. I guess this is me lecturing people now again, 908 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,740 S1: which I which I'm trying not to do, but I mean, yeah, 909 00:43:47,739 --> 00:43:49,839 S1: I is there any merit to it? I guess if 910 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:52,330 S1: we want to be sort of generous to people who 911 00:43:52,330 --> 00:43:54,610 S1: do it because it's not like, you know, a bunch 912 00:43:54,610 --> 00:43:56,859 S1: of weird freaks we're talking about. It's like many, many, 913 00:43:56,860 --> 00:44:00,430 S1: many people. And I think the interrogation of this show 914 00:44:00,430 --> 00:44:04,360 S1: is why it has been most watched for so long. Right. 915 00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:06,940 S1: This is driving a lot of viewers to it. What 916 00:44:06,940 --> 00:44:09,580 S1: is perhaps the most generous interpretation of this? People are 917 00:44:09,580 --> 00:44:12,640 S1: trying to understand why people would do something like this. 918 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:14,800 S1: They just want to solve a mystery. They think they're 919 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,220 S1: being helpful. Any any kind of generous interpretations you can 920 00:44:18,219 --> 00:44:18,760 S1: think of. 921 00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,100 S2: Yeah. For sure. I mean, I think it's, it's there's 922 00:44:21,100 --> 00:44:23,170 S2: a gradient, right? I think to be fair, I think 923 00:44:23,170 --> 00:44:24,969 S2: it's perfectly fine to watch a show and want to 924 00:44:24,969 --> 00:44:27,550 S2: Google like whether facts are true about it or to 925 00:44:27,550 --> 00:44:29,710 S2: see how much of it is true. But there's a 926 00:44:29,710 --> 00:44:32,979 S2: big difference between people doing that and then people kind 927 00:44:32,980 --> 00:44:35,770 S2: of doxing. Yeah. And naming, speculating who they think it 928 00:44:35,770 --> 00:44:39,070 S2: is and slandering. Yeah. And kicking off those whole kind 929 00:44:39,070 --> 00:44:40,930 S2: of subgroups that do that. So I think there's a 930 00:44:40,930 --> 00:44:43,900 S2: really big difference. Like, yeah, I totally get why people 931 00:44:43,900 --> 00:44:45,700 S2: want to find out more about a show and they're 932 00:44:45,700 --> 00:44:48,940 S2: interested in it and the context helps them. But I 933 00:44:48,940 --> 00:44:52,180 S2: think the dangerous part is when it's the naming and 934 00:44:52,180 --> 00:44:54,819 S2: shaming and it goes too far, which is probably a 935 00:44:54,820 --> 00:44:58,090 S2: minority of the internet, really, in the whole grand scheme 936 00:44:58,090 --> 00:45:00,460 S2: of things. But that's the area of concern because that 937 00:45:00,460 --> 00:45:03,549 S2: then does have real world consequences for people. 938 00:45:03,550 --> 00:45:05,680 S1: It is so fascinating to think about when we first 939 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:09,100 S1: mentioned this TV show on our show, it was Thomas 940 00:45:09,100 --> 00:45:11,590 S1: doing it on Impress Your Friends. Like, you know, a 941 00:45:11,590 --> 00:45:14,589 S1: couple of months ago did not expect it to either 942 00:45:14,590 --> 00:45:17,920 S1: be the most watched show potentially in the history of Netflix, 943 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:19,840 S1: which could make it the most watched show in the 944 00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:23,110 S1: history of the world, or be something that is part 945 00:45:23,110 --> 00:45:26,950 S1: of like UK parliamentary hearings and leading to conversations about 946 00:45:26,950 --> 00:45:30,339 S1: doxing and why people shouldn't do it. But on one hand, 947 00:45:30,340 --> 00:45:34,419 S1: how amazing is television to spark these kinds of conversations? 948 00:45:34,420 --> 00:45:36,820 S1: On the other hand, kind of a bit sad that 949 00:45:36,820 --> 00:45:39,490 S1: we just kind of can't have nice and important things 950 00:45:39,489 --> 00:45:41,200 S1: without people losing their minds. 951 00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:43,060 S2: I know, and also, isn't it insane like we were 952 00:45:43,060 --> 00:45:45,280 S2: talking about mid TV not that long ago? And then 953 00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:49,149 S2: a show like this, which is so different. So, you know, 954 00:45:49,150 --> 00:45:53,710 S2: out there not conventional, not I formulated intensely unique is 955 00:45:53,710 --> 00:45:57,549 S2: like this show that has one Netflix like surely that's 956 00:45:57,550 --> 00:45:59,469 S2: got to make them rethink a bit what they're doing 957 00:45:59,469 --> 00:46:01,060 S2: as well. The success of something like this. 958 00:46:01,060 --> 00:46:03,069 S1: Well, no. And exactly. And I think it relates to 959 00:46:03,070 --> 00:46:05,980 S1: this conversation of whether they thought it through, because we 960 00:46:05,980 --> 00:46:08,980 S1: talked earlier about how this came out of nowhere. Right. 961 00:46:08,980 --> 00:46:11,919 S1: Like for most TV shows that are being dropped by 962 00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:14,080 S1: big streamers, particularly ones that they think are going to 963 00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:16,990 S1: go off, you get, you know, emails in advance. This 964 00:46:16,989 --> 00:46:19,210 S1: show is coming out. You can watch early episodes, you 965 00:46:19,210 --> 00:46:21,580 S1: can interview the talent, you can do some stories about them. 966 00:46:21,580 --> 00:46:23,740 S1: You can get people hyped. None of that happened anywhere 967 00:46:23,739 --> 00:46:26,050 S1: in the world for baby reindeer. So I wonder whether 968 00:46:26,050 --> 00:46:28,450 S1: it was kind of acquired. They just thought, cool, this 969 00:46:28,450 --> 00:46:30,760 S1: is like a cool Edinburgh show. It's like an interesting 970 00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:34,120 S1: dark comedy. Off it goes. If they thought it was 971 00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:37,390 S1: going to be such a big show, they probably would have. 972 00:46:37,390 --> 00:46:41,500 S1: In my view, I think probably run that ruler over 973 00:46:41,500 --> 00:46:43,870 S1: it and thought what the consequences could be here. 974 00:46:43,870 --> 00:46:46,630 S2: Or at least manage the situation better with all of 975 00:46:46,630 --> 00:46:48,489 S2: the people who were involved. 976 00:46:48,489 --> 00:46:50,830 S1: Absolutely. Yeah. Because the other thing that Fiona Harvey said 977 00:46:50,830 --> 00:46:52,509 S1: is that she did not even know the show was 978 00:46:52,510 --> 00:46:55,480 S1: coming out. And I feel like when you're doing a 979 00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:59,500 S1: story on someone as a journalist, whether you're making a documentary, 980 00:46:59,500 --> 00:47:01,779 S1: whether you're making a fictional show that you're pitching as 981 00:47:01,780 --> 00:47:04,690 S1: a true story, picking up the phone and calling the 982 00:47:04,690 --> 00:47:08,410 S1: person who's quote unquote the bad guy is really tough. 983 00:47:08,410 --> 00:47:11,230 S1: But it is an important part of the job. And 984 00:47:11,230 --> 00:47:13,300 S1: it does feel like that was something that should have 985 00:47:13,300 --> 00:47:15,610 S1: been done that wasn't done here, even just to give 986 00:47:15,610 --> 00:47:18,670 S1: them a heads up or to say, hey, what concerns 987 00:47:18,670 --> 00:47:22,000 S1: do you potentially have that we could factor in? That 988 00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,040 S1: feels like something that could have happened early on in 989 00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:26,680 S1: this process to avoid this kind of situation. 990 00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:29,290 S2: Yeah, for sure. They could have protected themselves. And I mean, 991 00:47:29,290 --> 00:47:31,299 S2: maybe they did. We don't know. That's only her claim, 992 00:47:31,300 --> 00:47:32,920 S2: but I presume Netflix would have told us if they 993 00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:35,770 S2: had spoken to her by now. But yes, they could have. Definitely. 994 00:47:35,890 --> 00:47:39,819 S2: Protected themselves from a lot of this backlash by doing that. Yeah. 995 00:47:39,850 --> 00:47:41,620 S1: Look, I got to make a guess and say, this 996 00:47:41,620 --> 00:47:44,020 S1: might not be the last time we talk about baby reindeer, 997 00:47:44,020 --> 00:47:50,080 S1: but we have another kind of trauma inflected show, but 998 00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:52,540 S1: a much more fun one to talk about. This is 999 00:47:52,540 --> 00:47:55,090 S1: one that Thomas has been messaging us about for a 1000 00:47:55,090 --> 00:47:58,690 S1: long time to watch. And really interestingly, the only reason 1001 00:47:58,690 --> 00:48:01,029 S1: I actually got around to watching it is I was 1002 00:48:01,030 --> 00:48:03,670 S1: out on Saturday night. I came home from a friend's 1003 00:48:03,670 --> 00:48:06,160 S1: birthday party and I wasn't quite ready to go to sleep. 1004 00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:08,860 S1: So I just watched, you know, like you put on 1005 00:48:08,860 --> 00:48:11,200 S1: a show that you watched ages ago. It's kind of comfortable. 1006 00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:13,450 S1: You don't need to grapple with complicated ideas like, I'll 1007 00:48:13,450 --> 00:48:15,520 S1: watch this as I fall to sleep, so turn to 1008 00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:19,180 S1: The Inbetweeners. And you know, we love that show. And 1009 00:48:19,180 --> 00:48:20,350 S1: I was like, I wonder what they're up to now? 1010 00:48:20,350 --> 00:48:22,300 S1: And I'm like, oh, cool. These guys are in that show. 1011 00:48:22,300 --> 00:48:25,390 S1: I watch that. And Will. What's he up to in cinema? Anything. 1012 00:48:25,390 --> 00:48:27,730 S1: And I went on his Wikipedia page, Simon Bird, who 1013 00:48:27,730 --> 00:48:31,180 S1: plays Will from The Inbetweeners and he is the director 1014 00:48:31,180 --> 00:48:33,580 S1: of this show that Thomas has been yelling at us 1015 00:48:33,580 --> 00:48:36,370 S1: to watch such brave girls. So I thought, what, I 1016 00:48:36,370 --> 00:48:38,770 S1: should actually watch this show, and I did, and I 1017 00:48:38,770 --> 00:48:39,370 S1: loved it. 1018 00:48:40,420 --> 00:48:42,550 S9: Well, can you pick me up, please? I'm having big feelings. 1019 00:48:42,550 --> 00:48:42,940 S9: I can only. 1020 00:48:42,940 --> 00:48:45,940 S10: Afford one daughter having a breakdown at a time. You're. 1021 00:48:48,830 --> 00:48:51,530 S11: Well, the thing about Josie is that she's been experimenting 1022 00:48:51,530 --> 00:48:52,880 S11: with some ideas. 1023 00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:54,470 S12: Well, that sounds good. 1024 00:48:54,500 --> 00:48:57,020 UU: No, no it's not. 1025 00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,160 S9: Maybe she'll spot me across the room and realize I'm 1026 00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:02,750 S9: the love of her life. Don't think so. 1027 00:49:02,780 --> 00:49:04,339 S13: Sometimes me and mom forget you were even there when 1028 00:49:04,340 --> 00:49:05,450 S13: you're standing right next to us. 1029 00:49:05,630 --> 00:49:09,950 S2: Billy Johnson Thomas Mitchell also bullied me into it, and 1030 00:49:09,950 --> 00:49:11,210 S2: it got to such an extent that he was like 1031 00:49:11,210 --> 00:49:13,040 S2: messaging me, saying, are you watching such brave girls? And 1032 00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:14,750 S2: I kind of like, I got a bit belligerent. I 1033 00:49:14,750 --> 00:49:16,040 S2: was like, you don't know me. You don't know what 1034 00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:18,169 S2: I like. Um, and then I did put it on 1035 00:49:18,170 --> 00:49:19,969 S2: mainly so that he would stop asking me about it 1036 00:49:19,969 --> 00:49:23,990 S2: and like, maybe this is, uh, maybe this is an 1037 00:49:23,989 --> 00:49:26,870 S2: early call. It's only May, but I'm going with best 1038 00:49:26,870 --> 00:49:28,910 S2: comedy of 2024. 1039 00:49:28,910 --> 00:49:31,190 S1: Wow, wow. Big call. Why didn't you tell us what 1040 00:49:31,190 --> 00:49:32,210 S1: the show is about? 1041 00:49:32,210 --> 00:49:34,130 S2: Yeah, it is a real word of mouth show. So 1042 00:49:34,130 --> 00:49:37,730 S2: it's on Stan in Australia. It's a six part BBC comedy, 1043 00:49:37,730 --> 00:49:40,190 S2: and it's created by Catt Sadler, who I hadn't heard 1044 00:49:40,190 --> 00:49:42,799 S2: of before this but is such a talent. It follows 1045 00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:45,710 S2: single mum Deb, who's played by Louise Brealey, and she's 1046 00:49:45,710 --> 00:49:48,050 S2: got two daughters, which is the press. Josie, who is 1047 00:49:48,050 --> 00:49:51,380 S2: kind of played to Chef's Kiss by Sadler and her 1048 00:49:51,380 --> 00:49:55,010 S2: boy mad sister Billy, who is played by Sadler's real 1049 00:49:55,010 --> 00:49:58,580 S2: life sister, Lizzy Davidson. So they're husband and dad. He's 1050 00:49:58,580 --> 00:50:00,740 S2: gone to the shop one day to get tea, which 1051 00:50:00,739 --> 00:50:03,739 S2: becomes a recurring kind of joke, and he's never returned, 1052 00:50:03,739 --> 00:50:05,780 S2: and they're all trying to get themselves out of their 1053 00:50:05,780 --> 00:50:09,050 S2: own personal and family troubles. It is so funny. It's 1054 00:50:09,050 --> 00:50:13,730 S2: so moving. It's very bold. I absolutely loved this and 1055 00:50:13,730 --> 00:50:15,770 S2: I think Inbetweeners is a good one. If you like 1056 00:50:15,770 --> 00:50:19,910 S2: Sharon Horgan stuff. Yeah, yeah. Rain dogs, there's uh, they're 1057 00:50:19,910 --> 00:50:22,489 S2: kind of comparison points, but it's also like they're quite 1058 00:50:22,489 --> 00:50:25,190 S2: short episodes. So I almost watched it all in one 1059 00:50:25,190 --> 00:50:28,730 S2: night because it was so fun and delightful to watch. 1060 00:50:28,730 --> 00:50:31,009 S1: It's really good. It's really good. And I've not heard 1061 00:50:31,010 --> 00:50:33,590 S1: that many people talking about it, which kind of surprises 1062 00:50:33,590 --> 00:50:36,800 S1: me for how high caliber I think it is. Like 1063 00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:40,340 S1: Catt Sadler is obviously a brilliant writer. It's a great 1064 00:50:40,340 --> 00:50:43,790 S1: idea and the dialogue and stories are so good. She's 1065 00:50:43,790 --> 00:50:47,089 S1: an amazing performer as well. And Louise Brealey, like, I 1066 00:50:47,090 --> 00:50:50,180 S1: remember her from Sherlock, the Benedict Cumberbatch, Martin Freeman one, 1067 00:50:50,180 --> 00:50:52,910 S1: and I always found her presence in that really intriguing 1068 00:50:52,910 --> 00:50:56,030 S1: and interesting, and seeing her play a very different role 1069 00:50:56,030 --> 00:51:00,440 S1: is also like, it's so, so unexpected in terms of 1070 00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:03,620 S1: the kinds of the kinds of turns each character makes 1071 00:51:03,620 --> 00:51:06,530 S1: its pitch. This comedy, it does have in-between eerie vibes 1072 00:51:06,530 --> 00:51:09,020 S1: in terms of these young people talking very frankly about 1073 00:51:09,020 --> 00:51:12,020 S1: sex and the awkwardness of being a teenager, but it 1074 00:51:12,020 --> 00:51:13,880 S1: is so unexpected in the ways it goes. You'll go 1075 00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:18,320 S1: from a really funny scene to a very, very, very 1076 00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:22,340 S1: dark and complicated statement from a character about a traumatic 1077 00:51:22,340 --> 00:51:26,090 S1: experience that they've had. But I think it finds that 1078 00:51:26,090 --> 00:51:31,430 S1: line where you are understanding the complex backstories of all 1079 00:51:31,430 --> 00:51:34,040 S1: of these people that are making them act in certain ways. 1080 00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:37,160 S1: And I guess that's where the, um, baby reindeer comp comes, 1081 00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:40,850 S1: and it doesn't sort of treat their trauma as a, 1082 00:51:40,850 --> 00:51:44,420 S1: as a pithy thing. You understand and you empathize, but 1083 00:51:44,420 --> 00:51:46,430 S1: you also don't wallow in it. You don't feel bad, 1084 00:51:46,430 --> 00:51:48,590 S1: you don't feel grim about the state of the world. 1085 00:51:48,590 --> 00:51:51,770 S1: It's kind of empathetic and funny at the same time. 1086 00:51:51,770 --> 00:51:54,710 S1: It's pretty rare for a show, I think, to nail 1087 00:51:54,710 --> 00:51:56,450 S1: it that tone in that way. 1088 00:51:56,450 --> 00:51:59,540 S2: Yeah. Agree. An inferior show would just feel like a mess. 1089 00:51:59,540 --> 00:52:01,730 S2: And we would say the tone was uneven, but it 1090 00:52:01,730 --> 00:52:04,520 S2: does tread that balance so well. And the episodes are 1091 00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:07,969 S2: sometimes focused on like one little bit like they go 1092 00:52:07,969 --> 00:52:10,819 S2: camping or there's a funeral or and so it kind 1093 00:52:10,820 --> 00:52:13,879 S2: of plays out in real time with them in a way. 1094 00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,610 S2: And I think like it kind of reminded me when 1095 00:52:16,610 --> 00:52:18,589 S2: I was watching succession, I used to want to go 1096 00:52:18,590 --> 00:52:20,690 S2: back and listen to the lines, because there's just so 1097 00:52:20,690 --> 00:52:22,430 S2: many good lines that you kind of feel like you're 1098 00:52:22,430 --> 00:52:24,859 S2: still digesting one. And then something else has come up, 1099 00:52:24,860 --> 00:52:26,840 S2: and I had that same feeling with this. There are 1100 00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:29,750 S2: so many good lines and there's so much said with 1101 00:52:29,750 --> 00:52:33,770 S2: so little, like short, sharp, pithy dialogue that, yeah, I 1102 00:52:33,770 --> 00:52:36,140 S2: just thought it was, uh, very impressive. Yeah. 1103 00:52:36,140 --> 00:52:38,210 S1: These British comedy writers, maybe because so many of them 1104 00:52:38,210 --> 00:52:41,390 S1: come from writing for stage, where they're at comedy festivals 1105 00:52:41,390 --> 00:52:45,230 S1: or for for theatre. There's so much good dialogue that 1106 00:52:45,230 --> 00:52:47,420 S1: you like are kind of trying to understand a joke, 1107 00:52:47,420 --> 00:52:49,850 S1: and they've made two more already. But then this is 1108 00:52:49,850 --> 00:52:53,149 S1: the kind of show I could actually watch like four, five, six, 1109 00:52:53,150 --> 00:52:56,570 S1: seven seasons of watching these girls grow up and their 1110 00:52:56,570 --> 00:52:59,360 S1: mums sort of deal with them. She's maybe like the 1111 00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:05,210 S1: worst mum in television since Lucille Bluth from Arrested Development. Um, 1112 00:53:05,210 --> 00:53:08,000 S1: but again, you kind of understand. It's like she's terrible. 1113 00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:09,560 S1: The way she talks to her kids can be so 1114 00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:12,290 S1: dismissive in a way that's like, funny and like a 1115 00:53:12,290 --> 00:53:15,680 S1: bit shocking, but you still feel for her. That's the 1116 00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:17,450 S1: crazy other thing about this show is that even though 1117 00:53:17,450 --> 00:53:20,270 S1: so many of these characters are kind of like comic 1118 00:53:20,270 --> 00:53:23,180 S1: relief because of how mean or like dumb they are, 1119 00:53:23,210 --> 00:53:26,930 S1: even like the sort of boyfriend that the mum has 1120 00:53:26,930 --> 00:53:29,029 S1: for a bit, who I find kind of annoying. 2 1121 00:53:29,030 --> 00:53:31,489 S1: or 3 episodes in, you're like, oh man, this guy's 1122 00:53:31,489 --> 00:53:33,350 S1: got his own shit going on as well. Like, I 1123 00:53:33,350 --> 00:53:34,609 S1: really feel for this dude. 1124 00:53:34,610 --> 00:53:37,370 S2: Yeah, it's not a cruel show. It doesn't punch down. 1125 00:53:37,370 --> 00:53:40,850 S2: It is empathetic to all of them. And even the mum, 1126 00:53:40,850 --> 00:53:43,070 S2: it's like, yes, she's cruel, but part of the reason 1127 00:53:43,070 --> 00:53:45,680 S2: she's cruel is that she's trying to get her kids 1128 00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:48,590 S2: out of this. Situation. She she wants money. She's trying 1129 00:53:48,590 --> 00:53:51,980 S2: to move them all forward because she's suffered in her 1130 00:53:51,980 --> 00:53:54,080 S2: life from kind of having the same illusions as some 1131 00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:57,710 S2: of her kids. So even the cruelness is kind of explained, 1132 00:53:57,710 --> 00:54:00,560 S2: I thought the two sisters, just their bond and their 1133 00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:03,200 S2: differences and the way they bounced off each other was 1134 00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:06,830 S2: kind of really the highlight of the show. Their riposte 1135 00:54:06,830 --> 00:54:07,970 S2: was amazing. 1136 00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:10,700 S1: Um, you said favorite comedy of the year so far, 1137 00:54:10,700 --> 00:54:12,710 S1: I would agree. I mean, I think it's probably neck 1138 00:54:12,710 --> 00:54:14,900 S1: and neck between this and the latest season of hacks 1139 00:54:14,900 --> 00:54:16,969 S1: for me, which I am really, really enjoying. But as 1140 00:54:16,969 --> 00:54:19,790 S1: far as like a new show goes, this is like 1141 00:54:19,790 --> 00:54:22,580 S1: easily right up there and very excitingly was just renewed, 1142 00:54:22,580 --> 00:54:25,850 S1: I think this month for a second season. That's pretty exciting. Yeah, 1143 00:54:25,850 --> 00:54:26,210 S1: I know. 1144 00:54:26,210 --> 00:54:27,680 S2: That's the only thing I was sad about. And maybe 1145 00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:29,360 S2: this is a strategy. A lot of these kind of 1146 00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:32,630 S2: BBC comedies only are six parters. I think of starstruck 1147 00:54:32,630 --> 00:54:35,420 S2: as well. Short, sharp season, you know, it does leave 1148 00:54:35,420 --> 00:54:37,640 S2: you wanting more. You don't get tired of it. So 1149 00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:39,710 S2: now I'm really keen for the second season and I. 1150 00:54:39,710 --> 00:54:41,930 S1: Hope it delivers, you know, this kind of classic sophomore 1151 00:54:41,930 --> 00:54:44,120 S1: syndrome where Kat Sadler is like, I really I've been 1152 00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:46,760 S1: working up to making this show. I've got these ideas. 1153 00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:48,770 S1: You use them all. I hope she's got some stuff 1154 00:54:48,770 --> 00:54:50,930 S1: in the tank. I mean, there's nothing to suggest the 1155 00:54:50,930 --> 00:54:54,049 S1: quality will drop off, but we have just seen this 1156 00:54:54,050 --> 00:54:58,070 S1: pattern before in television. I hope they find a way 1157 00:54:58,070 --> 00:55:00,440 S1: to keep it going. And like, I think because the characters, 1158 00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:04,220 S1: like you say, no one's punching down. It's not cruel. 1159 00:55:04,219 --> 00:55:07,700 S1: They're the kinds of people you could just like, you know, 1160 00:55:07,700 --> 00:55:10,790 S1: my my ongoing rant about how I want TV to 1161 00:55:10,790 --> 00:55:13,190 S1: go on for years. I want to watch characters grow 1162 00:55:13,190 --> 00:55:15,200 S1: and change. I want to feel something with them. I'd 1163 00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:18,200 S1: love to just, like, watch these girls grow up and 1164 00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:21,020 S1: grapple with like the real world and stuff as well. 1165 00:55:21,020 --> 00:55:23,060 S1: I hope we get enough of that. 1166 00:55:23,330 --> 00:55:25,459 S2: Yeah, I reckon I've got high hopes for this also 1167 00:55:25,460 --> 00:55:28,370 S2: because it's not like particularly plot driven. It's more like 1168 00:55:28,370 --> 00:55:30,350 S2: kind of you're looking at these moments in time, and 1169 00:55:30,350 --> 00:55:33,890 S2: it's not like the characters developing on a more micro 1170 00:55:33,890 --> 00:55:37,580 S2: like apparently micro level, even though they're obviously big for them. Like, 1171 00:55:37,580 --> 00:55:40,100 S2: I kind of I don't see it writing itself into 1172 00:55:40,130 --> 00:55:42,560 S2: into a plot hole. So, um, yeah, second season, is 1173 00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:43,790 S2: it coming out next year? Yeah, I. 1174 00:55:43,790 --> 00:55:44,450 S1: Think so. 1175 00:55:44,450 --> 00:55:45,380 S2: Yeah. Cool. 1176 00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:50,029 S1: Rock and roll. Or malware onto our Rig to Impress 1177 00:55:50,030 --> 00:55:53,240 S1: Your Friends segment where we share something we watched, read, 1178 00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:56,390 S1: listened to, consumed the world of culture in the past week. 1179 00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:00,140 S1: What have you got for me other than Clarkson's Farm, obviously. 1180 00:56:00,140 --> 00:56:03,049 S2: I mean, everyone go watch it and then let's chat. 1181 00:56:03,050 --> 00:56:03,500 S2: Let's chat. 1182 00:56:03,500 --> 00:56:05,060 S1: We can do a Clarkson's Farm episode. 1183 00:56:05,060 --> 00:56:06,980 S2: Do you want to? I think we could. I think 1184 00:56:06,980 --> 00:56:08,300 S2: there's a lot of fun in that. A lot of 1185 00:56:08,300 --> 00:56:09,770 S2: weather chat. And you love weather chat. 1186 00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:10,850 S1: Do I love weather chat? 1187 00:56:10,850 --> 00:56:12,650 S2: I feel like you're always talking about what the weather's. 1188 00:56:12,650 --> 00:56:13,400 S8: Like when you live in. 1189 00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:15,500 S1: Melbourne. It's important for your life to know what the 1190 00:56:15,500 --> 00:56:16,250 S1: weather's like. 1191 00:56:16,250 --> 00:56:18,830 S2: Yeah that's true. You weren't you in the farmers? Okay. 1192 00:56:18,830 --> 00:56:20,900 S2: My recommendation. Look, this is an odd one and I 1193 00:56:20,900 --> 00:56:24,830 S2: didn't want to like this album. I thought my days 1194 00:56:24,830 --> 00:56:28,790 S2: of Vampire Weekend were in my past. I. You know, 1195 00:56:28,790 --> 00:56:31,340 S2: that was an old Mel. That was high school, Mel. 1196 00:56:31,340 --> 00:56:34,219 S2: No one needed more vampire Weekend, but turns out I did. 1197 00:56:34,219 --> 00:56:36,890 S2: Only God Was Above Us is their new album. Have 1198 00:56:36,890 --> 00:56:37,700 S2: you listened to it? 1199 00:56:37,850 --> 00:56:40,220 S1: Um, this is one of those things where you not 1200 00:56:40,219 --> 00:56:44,480 S1: having Instagram leads to these really funny, awkward moments. Because I, 1201 00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:47,029 S1: I love this album. I went on like this kind 1202 00:56:47,030 --> 00:56:50,420 S1: of deranged Instagram Story rant about it, about how I 1203 00:56:50,420 --> 00:56:53,629 S1: thought it was one of the most transcendent pieces of 1204 00:56:53,630 --> 00:56:57,739 S1: art in a while, and I thought how it encapsulated 1205 00:56:57,739 --> 00:57:03,110 S1: both Vampire Weekend's trajectory from sort of nihilistic indie rockers 1206 00:57:03,110 --> 00:57:06,080 S1: to becoming people who are talking about the decay of 1207 00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:10,310 S1: the modern world and futility of things as horrific things 1208 00:57:10,310 --> 00:57:13,700 S1: are happening all around us, and managing to do that 1209 00:57:13,700 --> 00:57:16,580 S1: in a way that felt relatable to everyone our age 1210 00:57:16,580 --> 00:57:20,750 S1: who grew up in that kind of pre-crisis, desiring music 1211 00:57:20,750 --> 00:57:23,120 S1: that meant nothing, and then watching everything that we thought 1212 00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:25,310 S1: we would be able to live into and enjoy crumble. 1213 00:57:25,310 --> 00:57:27,530 S1: And then having Vampire Weekend and Ezra tell us all 1214 00:57:27,530 --> 00:57:29,810 S1: about it. So yes, I really like this album. 1215 00:57:29,810 --> 00:57:32,060 S8: Wow. I've got to take about it. 1216 00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:35,210 S2: This was that was very well put. Look, this is 1217 00:57:35,210 --> 00:57:36,470 S2: why this is why we get on so well. I 1218 00:57:36,470 --> 00:57:39,800 S2: love Vampire Weekends new album. Yeah, I completely agree. There's 1219 00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:42,080 S2: like something nostalgic in the sounds, right? Because I can 1220 00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:44,750 S2: hear sounds of Old Vampire Weekend as well as something 1221 00:57:44,750 --> 00:57:48,080 S2: very new. And mainly I love like after Kendrick and 1222 00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:51,230 S2: Drake with their fighting and Taylor with all her breakups. 1223 00:57:51,230 --> 00:57:54,770 S2: I love Vampire Weekend singing about getting old and being 1224 00:57:54,770 --> 00:57:58,580 S2: disillusioned and memory and that that's speaking to me right now. Um, 1225 00:57:58,580 --> 00:58:00,950 S2: love the song Capricorn. I put that on my I'm 1226 00:58:00,950 --> 00:58:04,370 S2: making a Best Songs of 2020 list on Spotify, which 1227 00:58:04,370 --> 00:58:06,290 S2: maybe I'll share with you at the end of the year. Um, 1228 00:58:06,290 --> 00:58:08,959 S2: so Capricorn and Prep School Gangsters has gone on that 1229 00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:11,300 S2: list for me, but, um, yeah, I think it's a 1230 00:58:11,300 --> 00:58:12,260 S2: really pleasant listen. 1231 00:58:12,260 --> 00:58:14,960 S1: They're my two favorites as well. And I also love Hope, 1232 00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:16,669 S1: which is the final track, which is like eight minutes 1233 00:58:16,670 --> 00:58:18,590 S1: because I think it's really tongue in cheek and people 1234 00:58:18,590 --> 00:58:20,960 S1: have interpreted differently. I know some critics have said, you know, 1235 00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:24,740 S1: it's nice after an album that feels a bit bleak 1236 00:58:24,740 --> 00:58:27,290 S1: and a bit blunt about the state of the world, 1237 00:58:27,290 --> 00:58:29,090 S1: the song is called Hope and you feel pretty good. 1238 00:58:29,090 --> 00:58:31,580 S1: I'm like, I think they've sort of taken the piss, uh, 1239 00:58:31,580 --> 00:58:33,140 S1: of people who have hope. That's kind of like there's 1240 00:58:33,140 --> 00:58:35,840 S1: nothing hopeful to enjoy. But again, a track that really 1241 00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:37,910 S1: makes you think a whole album really that makes you 1242 00:58:37,910 --> 00:58:40,580 S1: think about things but not feel bad about it, like 1243 00:58:40,580 --> 00:58:44,840 S1: the music is fun and nice whilst evoking thoughts about 1244 00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:48,020 S1: what is our culpability in the current moment in the 1245 00:58:48,020 --> 00:58:50,600 S1: state of the world, in so many different ways, and 1246 00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:52,640 S1: whether we can ever break out of it. I feel 1247 00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:55,340 S1: like they're kind of saying, we tried guys, it didn't work. 1248 00:58:55,340 --> 00:58:58,400 S1: Just don't bother. Just like, enjoy what you can. And 1249 00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:01,820 S1: that's certainly a really solid statement for artists to make. 1250 00:59:01,820 --> 00:59:03,710 S1: And what else do you want from artists other than 1251 00:59:03,710 --> 00:59:06,320 S1: to have a stance and articulate it in a way 1252 00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:07,760 S1: that sounds catchy and fun? 1253 00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:10,669 S2: Yeah, agree. Have you kept up with Vampire Weekend over 1254 00:59:10,670 --> 00:59:11,270 S2: the years? 1255 00:59:11,270 --> 00:59:13,700 S1: Yeah, I have so father of the bride, which came out, 1256 00:59:13,700 --> 00:59:15,800 S1: I think the end of 2019, or maybe the beginning 1257 00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:18,170 S1: of 2020 was the end of 2019. That was one 1258 00:59:18,170 --> 00:59:20,570 S1: of my favorite albums of that year as well. They're 1259 00:59:20,570 --> 00:59:22,670 S1: just they're a really good band, and it's sort of 1260 00:59:22,670 --> 00:59:25,970 S1: almost a joke because they're also like the whitest band ever, 1261 00:59:25,970 --> 00:59:27,980 S1: and I love them, so take that. 1262 00:59:27,980 --> 00:59:30,470 S2: Yeah. Love it. You're complex. Okay. What's your rack? 1263 00:59:31,250 --> 00:59:33,320 S1: Um, I need a shout out, my friend Alex, who 1264 00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:35,690 S1: put me onto the show. This is the one I 1265 00:59:35,690 --> 00:59:38,330 S1: was watching last night instead of the budget. She texted 1266 00:59:38,330 --> 00:59:40,520 S1: me about this show after listening to our conversation about 1267 00:59:40,520 --> 00:59:43,940 S1: the idea of you because it stars Nicholas Galitzine. The 1268 00:59:43,940 --> 00:59:49,070 S1: show is called Mary and George. It's a historical drama 1269 00:59:49,070 --> 00:59:53,000 S1: dark comedy. It stars Julianne Moore, no less, as the 1270 00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:56,990 S1: Countess of Buckingham, who molds her son, played by Nicholas Galitzine, 1271 00:59:56,990 --> 00:59:57,890 S1: to seduce. 1272 00:59:58,010 --> 00:59:58,340 S2: You are. 1273 00:59:58,340 --> 00:59:59,000 S8: Complex. 1274 01:00:00,290 --> 01:00:02,900 S1: Uh, Nicholas Galitzine plays her son. Uh, she molds him 1275 01:00:02,900 --> 01:00:07,040 S1: into seducing King James the First and becoming his lover. 1276 01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:11,780 S1: It's loosely based on real historical events. It's great. This 1277 01:00:11,780 --> 01:00:13,730 S1: is really fun. If you like the great, which I 1278 01:00:13,730 --> 01:00:16,070 S1: think you did, I think you'll love this as well. 1279 01:00:16,070 --> 01:00:19,190 S1: It's on binge here. It's really, really fun. And again, like, 1280 01:00:19,190 --> 01:00:21,350 S1: I had no idea there was like, Julianne Moore and 1281 01:00:21,350 --> 01:00:26,000 S1: Nicholas Galitzine were in this really interesting show. Uh. It's awesome. 1282 01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:28,130 S1: Could not recommend this more Mary and George. 1283 01:00:28,340 --> 01:00:29,930 S2: Wow. I will give that a go. Is it the 1284 01:00:29,930 --> 01:00:32,840 S2: same kind of very dark, sexy tone of the great? 1285 01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:35,930 S1: I would say it's a bit less comedic and like 1286 01:00:35,930 --> 01:00:38,510 S1: more on the drama, but it is tonally very similar. 1287 01:00:38,510 --> 01:00:41,750 S1: It's like it's it's in the same universe as as 1288 01:00:41,750 --> 01:00:44,480 S1: the great. Like, let's take these things from history that 1289 01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:46,520 S1: traditionally have been a bit prim and proper, and let's 1290 01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:48,770 S1: just lean into how kind of fucked up all this was. 1291 01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:51,230 S1: And also King James, turns out he had a lover. 1292 01:00:51,230 --> 01:00:53,150 S1: Why have we talked about that on television before? Let's 1293 01:00:53,150 --> 01:00:53,990 S1: make that a show. 1294 01:00:53,990 --> 01:00:56,540 S2: Wow. Put that in the put that in the credits. 1295 01:00:57,420 --> 01:00:58,620 S8: Who was it? 1296 01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:00,870 S2: All right. You bully me for a month, and then 1297 01:01:00,870 --> 01:01:01,410 S2: I'll watch it. 1298 01:01:01,410 --> 01:01:02,610 S8: Rock and roll will do. 1299 01:01:02,700 --> 01:01:04,500 S1: Um, hey, I think we did a pretty good job 1300 01:01:04,500 --> 01:01:05,460 S1: with that, Thomas. 1301 01:01:05,490 --> 01:01:07,380 S2: I think so. I hope he's having fun swimming with 1302 01:01:07,380 --> 01:01:09,360 S2: the crocodiles. Whatever he's doing with them. 1303 01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:10,890 S1: I hope he hasn't been eaten yet. 1304 01:01:10,890 --> 01:01:12,120 S8: Yeah, well, you. 1305 01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:14,310 S2: Know, I imagine it would be his own fault if he. 1306 01:01:14,310 --> 01:01:14,730 S8: Was. 1307 01:01:15,450 --> 01:01:17,880 S1: Uh, Mel, thanks so much. See you next week. Bye. 1308 01:01:21,530 --> 01:01:24,290 S1: This episode of The Drop was produced by Kai Wong. 1309 01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:26,720 S1: If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop, 1310 01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:29,210 S1: make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast app. 1311 01:01:29,210 --> 01:01:31,490 S1: Leave us a review or better yet, share it with 1312 01:01:31,490 --> 01:01:33,650 S1: a friend! I'm Usman Farooqi, see. 1313 01:01:33,650 --> 01:01:34,370 UU: You next week.