1 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:08,000 S1: Two Americans have now been killed by federal agents on 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,799 S1: the streets of Minneapolis in less than three weeks. Their 3 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:15,040 S1: families say they were sweet, passionate people who could not 4 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,239 S1: sit back and watch while masked men snatched members of 5 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:22,640 S1: their community off the streets. The US government, meanwhile, calls 6 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:26,440 S1: them domestic terrorists who should not have intervened. While Immigration 7 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:30,160 S1: and Customs Enforcement, known as Ice agents, tried to do 8 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:34,879 S1: their work. Former Democratic Presidents Barack Obama and Bill Clinton 9 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:39,200 S1: have described the situation as a watershed moment in US history. 10 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:44,560 S1: I'm Julia Carcasole, and you're listening to Morning Edition from 11 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:49,440 S1: The Age and Sydney Morning Herald today. North America correspondent 12 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:58,160 S1: Michael Koziol. On the ground in Minneapolis. So welcome back 13 00:00:58,160 --> 00:00:59,560 S1: to the podcast, Michael. 14 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:01,520 S2: Thank you. It's a pleasure. 15 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:05,200 S1: By now, many of us will have seen that disturbing 16 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:09,080 S1: footage of a second US citizen being fatally shot by 17 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,280 S1: Ice agents. Do you mind giving us a play by 18 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:14,120 S1: play of the events of that day? 19 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:19,039 S2: Yeah. These federal agents were conducting a targeted operation against 20 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:23,000 S2: someone who were told was an illegal immigrant and a 21 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:27,759 S2: wanted criminal. And Alex Pretti, the man who died that day, 22 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:31,800 S2: was seemed to be engaged in, uh, what is quite 23 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,160 S2: a common practice, uh, in Minneapolis and other cities where 24 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:38,440 S2: these kind of ice operations are taking place, which is 25 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:44,679 S2: to observe and document these interactions. So it's not illegal, uh, 26 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:48,559 S2: for people to, you know, use their phones. And in 27 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:54,760 S2: the course of that, uh, interaction, uh, there's obviously been a, um, 28 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:59,530 S2: sort of confrontation between Alex and these agents. Another woman 29 00:01:59,530 --> 00:02:02,450 S2: was involved, and from what we can see in the footage, 30 00:02:02,450 --> 00:02:06,330 S2: it looks like Mr. Preddy was sort of taken to 31 00:02:06,330 --> 00:02:09,770 S2: the ground by these agents, along with another woman. And 32 00:02:09,770 --> 00:02:13,530 S2: it seems that as he was attempting to assist her 33 00:02:13,530 --> 00:02:17,730 S2: or something of that nature, the agents have obviously viewed 34 00:02:17,730 --> 00:02:21,130 S2: that as him trying to get away or resist arrest 35 00:02:21,130 --> 00:02:26,769 S2: or something. And at some point they have become concerned, 36 00:02:26,770 --> 00:02:31,050 S2: or of the view that, uh, Mr. Freddy's gun was 37 00:02:31,530 --> 00:02:34,490 S2: about to be used or was being used. Um, and 38 00:02:34,490 --> 00:02:36,690 S2: you can hear on the tape someone shouting, where's the gun? 39 00:02:36,690 --> 00:02:40,130 S2: Where's the gun? And then very quickly, those shots ring out. 40 00:02:48,530 --> 00:02:51,770 S2: They're fired by the agent and several of them straight 41 00:02:51,770 --> 00:02:59,490 S2: into Alex Preddy, who dies at the scene. Now, you know, look, 42 00:02:59,530 --> 00:03:03,570 S2: there have been different interpretations or of exactly what went 43 00:03:03,570 --> 00:03:06,649 S2: on in that video and it's subject to an investigation. 44 00:03:06,650 --> 00:03:09,049 S2: So I'm trying quite hard not to kind of be 45 00:03:09,050 --> 00:03:13,329 S2: definitive about this because it is being investigated. But I 46 00:03:13,330 --> 00:03:16,810 S2: think it's pretty clear from what happened, from what we 47 00:03:16,810 --> 00:03:19,450 S2: can see in that footage, that this was not someone 48 00:03:19,450 --> 00:03:23,010 S2: who was out there trying to attack Ice agents. He 49 00:03:23,210 --> 00:03:27,330 S2: no one has said that he actually had his gun out. Um, now, 50 00:03:27,330 --> 00:03:30,130 S2: it's possible that in the heat of the moment, someone 51 00:03:30,130 --> 00:03:33,570 S2: mistook something and thought he was reaching for a gun. 52 00:03:33,570 --> 00:03:36,490 S2: But what actually seems to have happened is that an 53 00:03:36,490 --> 00:03:40,850 S2: Ice agent disarmed him right before he was shot. Uh, 54 00:03:40,890 --> 00:03:44,570 S2: now again, you know, an investigation will supposedly get the 55 00:03:44,570 --> 00:03:48,650 S2: exact details and chronology of this. Correct. But that from 56 00:03:48,650 --> 00:03:50,930 S2: all the analysis that not just me looking at it, 57 00:03:50,930 --> 00:03:55,060 S2: but lots of different media outlets here, television networks here 58 00:03:55,060 --> 00:03:57,700 S2: in the US. Um, heaps of people have looked at 59 00:03:57,700 --> 00:04:01,180 S2: this footage, and that seems to be the consensus view that, 60 00:04:01,220 --> 00:04:04,460 S2: you know, this guy was not out to massacre law 61 00:04:04,460 --> 00:04:09,060 S2: enforcement agents, as we heard from one Trump administration official. Um, 62 00:04:09,100 --> 00:04:12,180 S2: but he was in fact disarmed, um, right before he 63 00:04:12,180 --> 00:04:14,140 S2: was shot and that all he was really trying to 64 00:04:14,140 --> 00:04:18,020 S2: do was film, uh, this law enforcement operation, which, as 65 00:04:18,020 --> 00:04:19,780 S2: I said before, is legal. 66 00:04:20,220 --> 00:04:22,700 S1: And, Michael, can you tell us a bit more about 67 00:04:22,740 --> 00:04:24,140 S1: who Preeti was? 68 00:04:24,620 --> 00:04:28,659 S2: Yeah. Look, Alex. Preeti, he was a 37 year old man. Um, 69 00:04:28,700 --> 00:04:32,300 S2: an American citizen. He was from Minneapolis. He was a nurse. 70 00:04:32,460 --> 00:04:36,420 S2: He worked at the, uh, he worked with Veterans Affairs. So, uh, 71 00:04:36,460 --> 00:04:41,180 S2: you know, helping, uh, heal, uh, sick veterans. You know, 72 00:04:41,220 --> 00:04:43,620 S2: this was an all American person who was a nurse 73 00:04:43,620 --> 00:04:46,900 S2: who was helping veterans. Um, and I think there's no 74 00:04:46,900 --> 00:04:50,299 S2: doubt that that also contributed to the way that his 75 00:04:50,300 --> 00:04:55,420 S2: death has changed the narrative changed the discussion about what 76 00:04:55,460 --> 00:04:57,339 S2: Border Patrol and Ice are doing. 77 00:04:57,900 --> 00:05:01,380 S1: And do we know why Alex Preddie had a firearm 78 00:05:01,380 --> 00:05:02,099 S1: on him? 79 00:05:02,779 --> 00:05:06,260 S2: Uh, look, it's an interesting point because obviously the Trump 80 00:05:06,260 --> 00:05:10,020 S2: administration and Donald Trump in particular have said, uh, why 81 00:05:10,020 --> 00:05:13,339 S2: was this guy carrying a bringing a gun to. Well, 82 00:05:13,380 --> 00:05:16,020 S2: you know, a protest or a riot or, you know, 83 00:05:16,060 --> 00:05:20,300 S2: perhaps more accurately described as, uh, you know, to monitor 84 00:05:20,300 --> 00:05:25,820 S2: and observe this, uh, enforcement operation. Um, but, you know, 85 00:05:25,860 --> 00:05:28,900 S2: on the other hand, um, he had a gun license, uh, 86 00:05:28,900 --> 00:05:31,620 S2: and Minnesota is a is a state in which you 87 00:05:31,620 --> 00:05:35,780 S2: can carry a weapon on you if you have a permit. Um, so, 88 00:05:36,300 --> 00:05:39,859 S2: you know, he wasn't disobeying any laws. You know, perhaps 89 00:05:39,860 --> 00:05:42,500 S2: he carries a gun with him everywhere he goes. Um, 90 00:05:42,540 --> 00:05:45,460 S2: I can't say that for sure, but plenty of plenty 91 00:05:45,460 --> 00:05:49,020 S2: of Americans do, uh, when it's legal in their state. Uh, 92 00:05:49,020 --> 00:05:51,460 S2: and that actually opened up a whole new kind of 93 00:05:51,500 --> 00:05:56,779 S2: side line of inquiry around this case. Um, because funnily enough, 94 00:05:56,779 --> 00:06:00,260 S2: it was the gun rights lobby, the National Rifle Administration 95 00:06:00,260 --> 00:06:04,100 S2: among them, who was saying, um, to the Trump administration. Well, 96 00:06:04,100 --> 00:06:06,700 S2: wait a minute. You're trying to argue that, um, this 97 00:06:06,700 --> 00:06:10,100 S2: guy made himself a target because he was carrying a gun? Well, 98 00:06:10,140 --> 00:06:13,099 S2: you know, we believe in carrying guns. It's the Second Amendment. 99 00:06:13,100 --> 00:06:15,340 S2: It's his right. Uh, and so you actually had the 100 00:06:15,339 --> 00:06:18,779 S2: bizarre case of, you know, the NRA, um, criticizing the 101 00:06:18,779 --> 00:06:22,179 S2: Trump administration and saying, wait a minute here. You're, you know, 102 00:06:22,220 --> 00:06:24,500 S2: calling into question our Second Amendment rights. 103 00:06:24,940 --> 00:06:27,980 S1: So there remains, yeah, that contention about what his motivations 104 00:06:27,980 --> 00:06:30,180 S1: were and at what point he took out his gun, 105 00:06:30,180 --> 00:06:33,260 S1: if he even did. And we saw this last time 106 00:06:33,260 --> 00:06:36,380 S1: with the shooting of Rene Good. The Trump administration jumped 107 00:06:36,380 --> 00:06:39,260 S1: to the defense of the officer. And in this case, 108 00:06:39,260 --> 00:06:41,700 S1: they've said that the officer feared for his life and 109 00:06:41,700 --> 00:06:44,780 S1: fired defensively. Can you tell me more about what we're 110 00:06:44,779 --> 00:06:47,950 S1: hearing from members of the Trump administration. 111 00:06:48,230 --> 00:06:50,990 S2: Yeah. So, look, it's almost an exact repeat of what 112 00:06:50,990 --> 00:06:54,710 S2: happened with Renee. Good. Um, and now, you know, the 113 00:06:54,710 --> 00:06:58,230 S2: Trump administration doesn't do anything by halves. So when they 114 00:06:58,230 --> 00:07:02,990 S2: immediately decided, uh, to defend the Ice agent, in both cases, 115 00:07:02,990 --> 00:07:07,230 S2: they did that with typical gusto and inflammatory rhetoric. So 116 00:07:07,230 --> 00:07:10,710 S2: we had people like Stephen Miller, um, the white House 117 00:07:10,710 --> 00:07:14,390 S2: deputy chief of staff and Donald Trump's homeland security advisor, 118 00:07:14,550 --> 00:07:18,869 S2: calling Alex Preddie a would be assassin, um, who tried 119 00:07:18,870 --> 00:07:23,190 S2: to murder Ice agents. Um, we had Kristi Noem, the 120 00:07:23,190 --> 00:07:27,510 S2: Homeland security secretary, uh, call him a domestic terrorist. The 121 00:07:27,510 --> 00:07:31,350 S2: same words that she used for Renee. Good. Uh, and again, 122 00:07:31,390 --> 00:07:35,350 S2: those judgments were made very quickly. Um, now, look, you know, 123 00:07:35,390 --> 00:07:37,510 S2: on one hand, you can kind of understand the instinct 124 00:07:37,510 --> 00:07:40,110 S2: to defend your people, um, and defend, you know, it's 125 00:07:40,110 --> 00:07:44,350 S2: the federal government defending their federal employees. But the stakes, 126 00:07:44,390 --> 00:07:47,990 S2: as we see now, much higher than that. And the 127 00:07:47,990 --> 00:07:50,030 S2: bar has to be a lot higher. We have to 128 00:07:50,070 --> 00:07:53,630 S2: actually understand what happened first before we can leap to 129 00:07:53,670 --> 00:07:57,670 S2: those conclusions. And in this case, we're now seeing those 130 00:07:58,270 --> 00:08:03,830 S2: sort of claims unravel because Donald Trump has intervened. Uh, 131 00:08:03,830 --> 00:08:07,270 S2: he's sent one of his own people to Minneapolis to 132 00:08:07,310 --> 00:08:11,950 S2: replace the, um, Border Patrol commander who was in charge there. Um, 133 00:08:11,950 --> 00:08:15,430 S2: and we've seen the white House refuse to back in, uh, 134 00:08:15,430 --> 00:08:18,830 S2: those sorts of claims by Stephen Miller and Kristi Noem, um, 135 00:08:18,830 --> 00:08:21,470 S2: with the white House press secretary saying today that she 136 00:08:21,470 --> 00:08:24,550 S2: has not heard Donald Trump talk about Alex Preddie in 137 00:08:24,550 --> 00:08:27,990 S2: those terms. And indeed, uh, you know, at least publicly, 138 00:08:28,030 --> 00:08:31,310 S2: he hasn't. So, you know, uh, I think even more 139 00:08:31,310 --> 00:08:35,230 S2: so than Renee. Good. Um, where we're seeing that, uh, 140 00:08:35,230 --> 00:08:39,430 S2: there's a real backlash to that very early, very definitive, um, 141 00:08:39,470 --> 00:08:44,520 S2: characterization of this event by some senior Trump administration officials. 142 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:47,560 S1: A kind of changing of tack. And so before we 143 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:51,160 S1: get into all that, Michael, you were in Minneapolis and 144 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,800 S1: spoke with residents on the ground and observed the atmosphere. 145 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:56,240 S1: What was it like there? 146 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:01,400 S2: Yeah, look, it was sort of interesting. Um, the juxtaposition 147 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:08,560 S2: of this horrible event, um, with the sort of beauty of, um, Minneapolis, 148 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:12,440 S2: which I didn't expect, but, uh, you know, it's extremely 149 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:14,640 S2: cold up there at the moment. All of, uh, most 150 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:16,960 S2: of the US is going through a cold snap. Uh, 151 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,320 S2: but Minneapolis, which is always cold at this time of year, 152 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:26,800 S2: was particularly freezing. It was, you know, -24, -25 Celsius overnight. Um, 153 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,360 S2: but you've got this beautiful blanket of snow everywhere and 154 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,480 S2: these kind of beautiful, um, period houses that are in 155 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,560 S2: this part of town where this tragedy happened. Uh, and, 156 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:38,959 S2: you know, you sort of go from that to knowing 157 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:44,480 S2: what occurred and seeing, uh, this memorial for Alex, um, 158 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:49,680 S2: which I went to, um, yesterday morning and, uh, you know, 159 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,280 S2: the the crowd there, despite the freezing cold, kind of 160 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:54,360 S2: grew over the time that I was there, there were 161 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,040 S2: about 100 people when I got there. Uh, more, so 162 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,520 S2: much more. So when I left, uh, and you know, it, 163 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:03,800 S2: when you spoke to people, you could feel how, um, 164 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,000 S2: full of grief they were, um, many of them very, 165 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,320 S2: very angry. Um, you know, most people, as you would expect, 166 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:15,280 S2: just kind of stood around this memorial quite peacefully, solemnly contemplating, um, 167 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,680 S2: perhaps saying a little prayer to themselves or, um, maybe 168 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,040 S2: even crying. Then you had some other people, you know, 169 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:23,640 S2: you had some activists who would kind of lead the 170 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:26,959 S2: crowd and, you know, they wanted to have their little speech, um, 171 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,920 S2: and they'd interact with the crowd, uh, or, you know, 172 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,080 S2: you had one woman who led the crowd in the 173 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:34,800 S2: Lord's Prayer, uh, and, you know, there was some other 174 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:39,690 S2: people who clearly were feeling, uh, some deep emotions, Uh, 175 00:10:39,850 --> 00:10:41,530 S2: you know, there was a woman who said she was 176 00:10:41,530 --> 00:10:45,890 S2: a nurse. Uh, who was kind of screaming out, uh, peace. Uh, 177 00:10:45,890 --> 00:10:48,370 S2: and that, you know, all nurses want peace. And she 178 00:10:48,370 --> 00:10:51,970 S2: led a chant. Um, of those words. Uh, so people 179 00:10:52,010 --> 00:10:53,730 S2: sort of, you know, were dealing with it in their 180 00:10:53,730 --> 00:10:57,170 S2: own way, but, um, yeah, a lot of sadness, um, 181 00:10:57,170 --> 00:10:59,730 S2: and a lot of anger. Um, and you see the anger, too, 182 00:10:59,730 --> 00:11:01,490 S2: when you just kind of walk down the street and 183 00:11:01,490 --> 00:11:04,330 S2: see the sort of things that are graffitied on, you know, 184 00:11:04,410 --> 00:11:07,970 S2: shop fronts and bus shelters, you know, uh, things like 185 00:11:08,290 --> 00:11:12,250 S2: ice kill ice there, you know, on every second window, um, 186 00:11:12,290 --> 00:11:15,530 S2: there on every bus shelter. So, uh, it's very raw. 187 00:11:21,530 --> 00:11:22,490 S1: After the break. 188 00:11:23,570 --> 00:11:28,010 S2: I think things will change because politically, it's become sort 189 00:11:28,010 --> 00:11:31,089 S2: of untenable for this to continue. There are now so 190 00:11:31,090 --> 00:11:35,050 S2: many Republicans, um, even people like Ted Cruz, the Republican senator, 191 00:11:35,090 --> 00:11:37,490 S2: saying this can't go on. There has to be an 192 00:11:37,730 --> 00:11:41,929 S2: investigation into what happened with Alex Preddy and that, you know, 193 00:11:41,970 --> 00:11:43,850 S2: the situation has to be defused. 194 00:11:47,570 --> 00:11:59,569 S1: We'll be right back. And so, can you tell me 195 00:11:59,570 --> 00:12:03,450 S1: more about Alex Preddy and what those protesters were actually 196 00:12:03,450 --> 00:12:06,809 S1: doing at the scene, and how pretty and good are 197 00:12:06,809 --> 00:12:10,809 S1: being branded as agitators or even domestic terrorists by people 198 00:12:10,809 --> 00:12:14,370 S1: like Vice President JD Vance and conservative media outlets? What 199 00:12:14,370 --> 00:12:16,410 S1: are they actually doing there? 200 00:12:16,929 --> 00:12:19,369 S2: So, yeah, look, I mean, there's a range of protest 201 00:12:19,370 --> 00:12:22,770 S2: activity that people engage in. Um, as I said before, 202 00:12:22,970 --> 00:12:28,970 S2: you know, some people call themselves observers, uh, and but basically, I, 203 00:12:29,450 --> 00:12:31,770 S2: I spoke to, um, a young woman. She was 28. 204 00:12:31,770 --> 00:12:34,689 S2: She was just standing outside a coffee shop nearby. Um, 205 00:12:34,730 --> 00:12:36,890 S2: because I wanted just to talk to some random people, 206 00:12:36,929 --> 00:12:39,050 S2: you know, to get what? What the typical citizen thinks 207 00:12:39,050 --> 00:12:42,010 S2: about all this. And she it turned out, uh, was 208 00:12:42,010 --> 00:12:44,809 S2: an observer. Um, so she says, you know, she started 209 00:12:44,809 --> 00:12:46,730 S2: up a group chat with a lot of her neighbors, 210 00:12:46,730 --> 00:12:49,689 S2: and they pass on details about what Ice agents are 211 00:12:49,690 --> 00:12:52,370 S2: doing in the area where they've been spotted, where these 212 00:12:52,410 --> 00:12:55,170 S2: operations are, and then they'll go out and they'll use 213 00:12:55,170 --> 00:12:58,290 S2: their phones and they'll record, uh, now, obviously some people, 214 00:12:58,330 --> 00:13:01,890 S2: you know, stand back passively. Other people get in the 215 00:13:01,890 --> 00:13:06,689 S2: faces of these Ice agents. Um, and, you know, it's not, um, 216 00:13:06,890 --> 00:13:09,650 S2: it's not pretty what goes on. And people will have 217 00:13:09,650 --> 00:13:11,770 S2: their own views about it. Uh, I mean, you know, 218 00:13:11,809 --> 00:13:14,810 S2: they'll yell out pig. They'll yell out shame, they'll yell 219 00:13:14,809 --> 00:13:18,930 S2: out ice. Um, you know, they'll, uh, say all sorts 220 00:13:18,929 --> 00:13:21,730 S2: of horrible things to these people who, you know, look, 221 00:13:21,730 --> 00:13:24,130 S2: are doing their jobs. Um, whether you agree with the 222 00:13:24,130 --> 00:13:26,930 S2: job that they're doing or not. So it gets pretty hairy. 223 00:13:26,929 --> 00:13:30,890 S2: And then obviously, um, you know, some people we've heard 224 00:13:30,890 --> 00:13:33,860 S2: from the administration that Ice agents are being sort of 225 00:13:33,900 --> 00:13:38,100 S2: rammed with cars, or people are using their cars as weapons, 226 00:13:38,100 --> 00:13:40,020 S2: or to try and kind of block them to prevent 227 00:13:40,020 --> 00:13:43,300 S2: them from carrying out their duties from carrying out these 228 00:13:43,300 --> 00:13:47,900 S2: enforcement operations. So, you know, look, they're pretty hectic protests. 229 00:13:47,940 --> 00:13:52,540 S2: I mean, anyone who's seen, um, Antifa protests in the 230 00:13:52,540 --> 00:13:57,420 S2: US knows that they are pretty serious. Um, uh, and that, 231 00:13:57,460 --> 00:14:00,100 S2: you know, um, I mean, we get that in Australia too, 232 00:14:00,100 --> 00:14:02,300 S2: but I think it's, um, probably taken up a notch 233 00:14:02,300 --> 00:14:05,420 S2: over here. Uh, so, you know, these sort of situations 234 00:14:05,420 --> 00:14:10,020 S2: can get difficult. They can get violent. But, uh, you know, 235 00:14:10,059 --> 00:14:13,260 S2: these officers are also trained in trying to de-escalate and 236 00:14:13,260 --> 00:14:17,100 S2: diffuse those sorts of situations. And, you know, looking at 237 00:14:17,100 --> 00:14:19,940 S2: the video from both of those cases, that's pretty clearly 238 00:14:19,940 --> 00:14:21,340 S2: not what happened here. 239 00:14:21,700 --> 00:14:24,740 S1: And it does appear from the outside that protesters are 240 00:14:24,740 --> 00:14:28,420 S1: only responding to what has become an ever expanding and 241 00:14:28,420 --> 00:14:33,940 S1: aggressive Ice operation, with officers allegedly routinely operating outside of 242 00:14:33,940 --> 00:14:34,420 S1: the law. 243 00:14:35,020 --> 00:14:42,500 S2: So, uh, I think part of the problem for us 244 00:14:42,500 --> 00:14:45,820 S2: and the administration is the way that they go about 245 00:14:45,820 --> 00:14:49,780 S2: a lot of these activities now, and they're doing multiple 246 00:14:49,780 --> 00:14:52,300 S2: things at once. Right. Um, so the part that Donald 247 00:14:52,300 --> 00:14:55,260 S2: Trump likes to focus on is that we're rounding up 248 00:14:55,260 --> 00:14:59,420 S2: known and accused criminals who are here illegally, and we're 249 00:14:59,420 --> 00:15:02,420 S2: deporting them. Uh, and, you know, look, there's not most 250 00:15:02,420 --> 00:15:05,140 S2: people kind of wouldn't have a huge problem with that. But, 251 00:15:05,180 --> 00:15:08,060 S2: you know, a lot of the time when they're undertaking 252 00:15:08,060 --> 00:15:11,380 S2: these operations, it's difficult to know exactly what's going on 253 00:15:11,380 --> 00:15:15,940 S2: because these Ice agents are rocking up in unmarked cars. Uh, 254 00:15:16,060 --> 00:15:19,900 S2: they're wearing masks. Uh, they're not clearly they might be 255 00:15:19,900 --> 00:15:22,620 S2: identified as federal agents, but not all of the time. 256 00:15:22,620 --> 00:15:27,020 S2: Sometimes they're in plain, plain clothes. Uh, and so that 257 00:15:27,060 --> 00:15:32,070 S2: leads to these images, um, and this footage of masked, 258 00:15:32,110 --> 00:15:35,830 S2: unidentified people kind of grabbing people on the street. Uh, 259 00:15:35,830 --> 00:15:38,110 S2: and that's a very powerful image. And that can be 260 00:15:38,110 --> 00:15:40,750 S2: a radicalizing image. I mean, you know, when people like 261 00:15:40,790 --> 00:15:44,590 S2: Tim Walz, the governor of Minnesota, um, speak about why 262 00:15:44,590 --> 00:15:47,070 S2: he wants ice out of his state, that's what he 263 00:15:47,070 --> 00:15:51,790 S2: talks about, right? So I think part of what Donald 264 00:15:51,830 --> 00:15:55,630 S2: Trump might be trying to do now is try and, um, 265 00:15:56,230 --> 00:15:59,950 S2: cut down on some of that activity, um, and try 266 00:15:59,990 --> 00:16:02,470 S2: to show to the American people that it's more ordered 267 00:16:02,470 --> 00:16:05,350 S2: than that, that we know what we're doing. Um, uh, 268 00:16:05,790 --> 00:16:07,990 S2: and it's not not that sense of chaos. 269 00:16:08,270 --> 00:16:10,510 S1: And the governor, Tim Walz, did come out and say 270 00:16:10,510 --> 00:16:13,470 S1: that he had a positive meeting with Trump and that 271 00:16:13,470 --> 00:16:16,150 S1: Trump will pull, as you say, the top border patrol 272 00:16:16,150 --> 00:16:19,870 S1: commander out of the state and other agents. Do you 273 00:16:19,870 --> 00:16:22,310 S1: think that will change things, or do you think they'll 274 00:16:22,310 --> 00:16:24,870 S1: just move to the next one and the fight will continue? 275 00:16:24,910 --> 00:16:27,670 S2: Oh, look, I think there's going to be some change now. Um, 276 00:16:27,710 --> 00:16:30,790 S2: you know, it's sort of remarkable that we're talking about, um, 277 00:16:30,830 --> 00:16:33,750 S2: Trump sending in Tom Bowman, who's a pretty hard line, 278 00:16:33,790 --> 00:16:36,510 S2: you know, guy on immigration. Um, but that we're talking 279 00:16:36,510 --> 00:16:38,470 S2: about him being sent in as a kind of circuit 280 00:16:38,470 --> 00:16:42,310 S2: breaker and as a sort of moderate moderating solution. Um, 281 00:16:42,310 --> 00:16:44,990 S2: and yet it's gotten to that point. Uh, but I 282 00:16:44,990 --> 00:16:50,150 S2: think things will change because, uh, politically, it's become sort 283 00:16:50,150 --> 00:16:53,270 S2: of untenable for this to continue. There are now so 284 00:16:53,270 --> 00:16:58,390 S2: many Republicans, um, even people like Ted Cruz, the Republican senator, saying, um, 285 00:16:58,430 --> 00:17:00,990 S2: this can't go on. There has to be an investigation 286 00:17:00,990 --> 00:17:04,910 S2: into what happened with Alex, uh, and that, you know, 287 00:17:04,950 --> 00:17:08,469 S2: the situation has to be defused. We've had editorials from 288 00:17:08,470 --> 00:17:12,109 S2: the New York Post, which, you know, right wing tabloid newspaper, 289 00:17:12,109 --> 00:17:16,270 S2: one of, um, Donald Trump's favorites, saying, uh, that, you know, 290 00:17:16,310 --> 00:17:19,230 S2: Americans don't want to see these sorts of images, um, 291 00:17:19,230 --> 00:17:22,790 S2: and that they need to be stopped. So I think 292 00:17:22,790 --> 00:17:25,590 S2: the heat has become too much. I think Donald Trump, Um, 293 00:17:25,990 --> 00:17:29,950 S2: you know, for, uh, all his critics and all his faults, um, 294 00:17:29,990 --> 00:17:34,270 S2: does have a sort of kind of, um, nose for politics. Um, 295 00:17:34,550 --> 00:17:37,390 S2: and he clearly is sensing that the politics on this 296 00:17:37,390 --> 00:17:41,470 S2: have shifted, um, and that ice has gone too far, um, 297 00:17:41,470 --> 00:17:43,950 S2: and Homeland Security has gone too far. And that's why 298 00:17:43,950 --> 00:17:47,870 S2: he's sending in his person, who will report directly to him. Uh, 299 00:17:47,869 --> 00:17:51,510 S2: and the Border Patrol commander, Greg Bovino, is out and 300 00:17:51,510 --> 00:17:54,109 S2: leaving the city tomorrow. So I think there will have 301 00:17:54,109 --> 00:17:56,590 S2: to be some change. Uh, now, whether Ice does go 302 00:17:56,590 --> 00:17:59,350 S2: into more cities, I'm sure they will go into more cities, 303 00:17:59,350 --> 00:18:02,230 S2: but I think this will be a circuit breaker for 304 00:18:02,230 --> 00:18:04,909 S2: the kind of activities that they undertake there and how 305 00:18:04,910 --> 00:18:05,909 S2: they undertake them. 306 00:18:06,310 --> 00:18:08,310 S1: And to that point, how important do you think it 307 00:18:08,310 --> 00:18:12,230 S1: is that we have an independent investigation after all of this? Because, 308 00:18:12,430 --> 00:18:15,590 S1: like with the Renee Goode case, we're still unclear about 309 00:18:15,590 --> 00:18:18,510 S1: which authorities will be in charge of that, which authorities 310 00:18:18,510 --> 00:18:22,550 S1: have access to police material. So how important is it 311 00:18:22,550 --> 00:18:25,680 S1: that we get some kind of understanding of what's happened here? 312 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:28,120 S2: Well, I mean, I think it's important kind of from 313 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:32,080 S2: a process point of view because, um, you know, when 314 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:36,320 S2: an American citizen is killed by a federal agent, there 315 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:40,280 S2: should be an investigation. Um, and it's important to get 316 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:46,120 S2: the facts nailed down by some kind of impartial, independent, uh, probe. Um, 317 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:50,400 S2: I don't think it's necessarily important in terms of kind 318 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:52,720 S2: of the big picture of changing hearts and minds, like, 319 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:56,880 S2: I think people have kind of, um, like, I think 320 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,160 S2: one we can see the footage and two, I think 321 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:03,240 S2: people kind of have their ideas of what's happened and they, um, 322 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,560 S2: have their views on ice, although some people are changing 323 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:08,320 S2: their views as a result of what's happened over the 324 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,239 S2: last three weeks. That must be said. Um, so I, 325 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,840 S2: you know, I don't think whenever this investigation comes down 326 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:16,480 S2: and however long that might be, it could be a 327 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:20,000 S2: long time, um, that that's suddenly going to, you know, 328 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,400 S2: change the debate about us. I think that debate has 329 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,080 S2: already changed in the last three weeks. Uh, and I 330 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,840 S2: think it's probably going to accelerate as the president, um, 331 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:33,359 S2: kind of, you know, takes charge here and intervenes. Uh, and, 332 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,959 S2: you know, a lot of people, uh, in this country 333 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,880 S2: follow the president. A lot of Republicans, um, will take 334 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,840 S2: his lead. Uh, and I think if he's saying that, 335 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,800 S2: you know, essentially this has gone too far, then people 336 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:47,320 S2: will rally to that view. 337 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:53,720 S1: Well, thank you so much for your time today, Michael. 338 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:54,880 S2: Not a problem. 339 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,760 S1: In other news, today, a heat wave scorching south eastern 340 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:10,800 S1: Australia fuelled bushfires filled skies with smoke and tumbled temperature 341 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:15,440 S1: records yesterday. The government tells leading Muslim religious leaders that 342 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,399 S1: new hate speech laws won't prevent criticisms of foreign countries 343 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:24,850 S1: or political ideologies, including Israel and Zionism, and the Fair 344 00:20:24,890 --> 00:20:28,649 S1: Work Commission has upheld a Melbourne man's dismissal for failing 345 00:20:28,690 --> 00:20:32,210 S1: to return to the office, despite his contract allowing him 346 00:20:32,210 --> 00:20:35,969 S1: to work from home. You can read more at theage.com.au 347 00:20:36,330 --> 00:20:41,210 S1: or smh.com.au. And while you're there, consider subscribing to us 348 00:20:41,210 --> 00:20:44,250 S1: and save 50% for the first six months on our 349 00:20:44,250 --> 00:20:49,330 S1: premium digital and essential weekend packages to unlock award winning journalism, 350 00:20:49,530 --> 00:20:53,970 S1: plus subscriber favourites like puzzles, Good Food and Traveller, T's 351 00:20:53,970 --> 00:20:58,290 S1: and C's apply. Today's episode was produced by Josh towers. 352 00:20:58,650 --> 00:21:03,370 S1: Our executive producer is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are 353 00:21:03,369 --> 00:21:07,490 S1: overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like 354 00:21:07,490 --> 00:21:10,810 S1: our show, follow the Morning Edition and leave a review 355 00:21:10,810 --> 00:21:14,649 S1: for us on Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.