1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,360 S1: Hi, it's Samantha Selinger Morris here. And I'm the host 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:06,800 S1: of the Morning Edition. We're bringing you the best episodes 3 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:10,800 S1: of 2025 before your Morning Edition team returns on Monday. 4 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:15,280 S1: In August, two police officers were shot and killed at 5 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:19,520 S1: a property in Victoria's high country, and suspected murderer Desi 6 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:24,040 S1: Freeman went on the run. Now, more than four months later, 7 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:28,840 S1: he is still missing. In this episode, associate editor and 8 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:32,479 S1: special writer Tony Wright takes us to the whispering forests 9 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,839 S1: and deep valleys of the high country, which have long 10 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:37,519 S1: hidden those on the run. 11 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:40,879 S2: So, Tony, you are only just back to the city 12 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:44,760 S2: after a few days spent in Victoria's high country. And 13 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:47,640 S2: this is obviously because the search for alleged gunman Desi 14 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:51,519 S2: Freeman around Papunya continues. Now, this is a region that 15 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,000 S2: has been, I guess, somewhat infamous. So can you just 16 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,160 S2: start off by telling us a little bit about this 17 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:57,840 S2: area and its geography? 18 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,670 S3: Well, Papanca is in the Ovens Valley, which is on 19 00:01:01,670 --> 00:01:06,350 S3: the ovens River, which flows past Mount Buffalo and out 20 00:01:06,350 --> 00:01:09,030 S3: of the mountains. The mountains that I'm talking about, north 21 00:01:09,030 --> 00:01:12,190 S3: east Victoria are they're known as the Victorian Alps. They're 22 00:01:12,230 --> 00:01:17,990 S3: a very large area, very, very rugged, very beautiful also, and, um, 23 00:01:17,990 --> 00:01:20,630 S3: quite perilous if you don't know what you're doing and 24 00:01:20,670 --> 00:01:23,709 S3: you get lost up there. Over the years, there have 25 00:01:23,709 --> 00:01:26,150 S3: been quite a few people who have gone missing for 26 00:01:26,150 --> 00:01:30,710 S3: various reasons there. But also there are sort of legends 27 00:01:30,709 --> 00:01:34,709 S3: because they worked out how to get around that place and, 28 00:01:34,709 --> 00:01:36,789 S3: and hide out if they so desired. 29 00:01:37,230 --> 00:01:39,870 S2: Well, let's get into this because you have written, I 30 00:01:39,870 --> 00:01:41,670 S2: love your turn of phrase, Tony. You've written that the 31 00:01:41,709 --> 00:01:46,350 S2: hush of Victoria's high country's snow laden plateaus have long 32 00:01:46,350 --> 00:01:49,830 S2: been the haunts of the daring, the desperate, and the deranged. 33 00:01:50,110 --> 00:01:53,750 S2: So just how far does the area's links to criminals 34 00:01:53,750 --> 00:01:54,430 S2: go back? 35 00:01:54,910 --> 00:01:59,030 S3: Well, at the very least to the time of Dan Morgan, 36 00:01:59,070 --> 00:02:07,820 S3: the bushranger who skirted that area in the mid 1800s. Then, 37 00:02:07,820 --> 00:02:11,780 S3: of course, Ned Kelly and his gang through the latter 38 00:02:11,780 --> 00:02:15,820 S3: period of the or a slightly later period of the 1800s. 39 00:02:16,220 --> 00:02:19,459 S3: And then in the early part of last century, about 40 00:02:19,460 --> 00:02:25,940 S3: 19 1718, there were two very mysterious murders that occurred 41 00:02:25,940 --> 00:02:29,019 S3: in the Wonnangatta Valley. And the. And the valley sits 42 00:02:29,660 --> 00:02:36,019 S3: basically within this great bowl of mountains, very inaccessible until 43 00:02:36,220 --> 00:02:41,900 S3: relatively recently, when four wheel drives began their owners camping 44 00:02:41,900 --> 00:02:47,060 S3: in there. But back in 1918, the body of the 45 00:02:47,100 --> 00:02:50,980 S3: manager of Wonnangatta station, it was it was a cattle station. 46 00:02:50,980 --> 00:02:55,220 S3: In those days it was found the head, his head 47 00:02:55,260 --> 00:03:00,329 S3: found nearby, and he'd been shot. Not everyone assumed that 48 00:03:00,730 --> 00:03:05,609 S3: his cook and stockman, who was known to have a 49 00:03:05,610 --> 00:03:10,010 S3: pretty bad temper, had killed him. But then they found 50 00:03:10,010 --> 00:03:14,810 S3: the body of him, the cook and stockman, about 30km away, 51 00:03:15,050 --> 00:03:17,609 S3: hidden under a log, and he'd been shot in the head. 52 00:03:18,450 --> 00:03:21,489 S3: Since then, nobody has been able to crack that case 53 00:03:21,490 --> 00:03:25,609 S3: to know exactly what happened and who killed whom and why. 54 00:03:26,330 --> 00:03:30,210 S3: So the Warren got a valley in particular, gained this 55 00:03:30,250 --> 00:03:35,010 S3: reputation as a as quite a place of mystery. And then, 56 00:03:35,050 --> 00:03:38,810 S3: of course, uh, much more recently, there was the case 57 00:03:39,170 --> 00:03:43,610 S3: of Russell Hill, who was 74, and Carol Clay, 73, 58 00:03:43,770 --> 00:03:48,050 S3: went missing in 2020 while on a camping visit to 59 00:03:48,050 --> 00:03:52,290 S3: the Wonnangatta Valley. And that turned into an enormous, uh, case, 60 00:03:52,530 --> 00:03:56,490 S3: which eventually ended up with an airline pilot named Gregory 61 00:03:56,530 --> 00:04:00,470 S3: Lynn being tried and found guilty of one of those 62 00:04:00,470 --> 00:04:05,190 S3: people's death. He was found guilty of murdering miss Clay, 63 00:04:05,510 --> 00:04:09,830 S3: but not of murdering Hill. He got 32 years in jail. 64 00:04:09,830 --> 00:04:13,550 S3: But in the meantime, of course, there was this ghastly situation. 65 00:04:13,550 --> 00:04:17,669 S3: Revealed that he'd removed the bodies, taken them to elsewhere 66 00:04:17,670 --> 00:04:22,029 S3: in the remote areas of the mountains, burnt them to ash, 67 00:04:22,430 --> 00:04:25,270 S3: and then had tried to pretend he had nothing to 68 00:04:25,270 --> 00:04:25,869 S3: do with it. 69 00:04:28,430 --> 00:04:32,150 S2: This region really is the site of such dark sort 70 00:04:32,150 --> 00:04:37,270 S2: of crimes. Terrible violence, bizarre stuff. Is it something about 71 00:04:37,270 --> 00:04:39,550 S2: the region? Like is it something about the geography? Does 72 00:04:39,550 --> 00:04:41,150 S2: it just have I don't know, what is it about 73 00:04:41,150 --> 00:04:43,630 S2: the geography of this place? Does it sort of lend itself, 74 00:04:43,630 --> 00:04:45,750 S2: I guess, to people hiding? 75 00:04:46,110 --> 00:04:49,390 S3: Well, it certainly lends itself to people going missing. The 76 00:04:49,390 --> 00:04:52,510 S3: mountains are a place where you can disappear, or you 77 00:04:52,510 --> 00:04:55,190 S3: believe you can disappear, because there are those who have 78 00:04:55,190 --> 00:04:58,260 S3: done it in the past. There are at least four 79 00:04:58,260 --> 00:05:01,219 S3: people that I know of this century who have simply 80 00:05:01,220 --> 00:05:05,940 S3: gone missing and never been found. A bushwalker very experienced 81 00:05:05,940 --> 00:05:10,859 S3: bushwalker in 2019 he went missing has never been found. 82 00:05:10,900 --> 00:05:17,900 S3: A warden from Barwon Prison also went missing in most 83 00:05:17,900 --> 00:05:19,620 S3: extraordinary circumstances. 84 00:05:19,660 --> 00:05:21,339 S2: Wait, I have to interrupt you. Tell us about these 85 00:05:21,339 --> 00:05:24,700 S2: extraordinary circumstances of the warden going missing. Was the warden 86 00:05:24,700 --> 00:05:26,900 S2: escaping the prisoners like what's happening there? 87 00:05:26,940 --> 00:05:30,020 S3: No, no, we don't know. We don't know. He certainly, uh, 88 00:05:30,020 --> 00:05:33,859 S3: had been in charge of some very violent prisoners at Barwon, 89 00:05:33,860 --> 00:05:37,140 S3: but you'd hardly imagine that they would trace him up 90 00:05:37,140 --> 00:05:39,620 S3: into the high country and then do away with him. 91 00:05:39,660 --> 00:05:43,179 S3: Nobody knows. There's several others who have gone missing. And also, 92 00:05:43,220 --> 00:05:48,060 S3: of course, uh, during the investigations into the more recent 93 00:05:48,060 --> 00:05:52,460 S3: missing persons up there have been the stories about this 94 00:05:52,460 --> 00:05:57,170 S3: very mysterious fellow called the Button Man. He's about 70 95 00:05:57,170 --> 00:06:00,210 S3: years of age. It's believed he wanders around the hills, 96 00:06:00,210 --> 00:06:06,610 S3: lives alone in the mountains, and mysteriously turns up and 97 00:06:06,610 --> 00:06:11,850 S3: just sits down next to campers silently, and then then 98 00:06:11,890 --> 00:06:15,490 S3: wanders off again. And nobody really knows much about him. 99 00:06:15,490 --> 00:06:21,330 S3: But he is, uh, a man of some interest to 100 00:06:21,370 --> 00:06:22,169 S3: a lot of people. 101 00:06:22,650 --> 00:06:25,010 S2: I mean, Tony, this man might be perfectly harmless, and 102 00:06:25,010 --> 00:06:27,010 S2: I certainly don't want to defame him, but this is 103 00:06:27,010 --> 00:06:29,210 S2: the stuff of nightmares, I think. You wrote the reason 104 00:06:29,210 --> 00:06:31,169 S2: he's called the Button Man is because doesn't he carve 105 00:06:31,210 --> 00:06:34,530 S2: buttons out of deer antlers or something? And just, like, 106 00:06:34,570 --> 00:06:37,729 S2: leaves them places, and, I mean, it's ominous. Yeah. 107 00:06:37,770 --> 00:06:41,410 S3: And little cairns of stones. And there was one famous 108 00:06:41,410 --> 00:06:45,010 S3: occasion where a, uh, a photographer, a wildlife photographer was 109 00:06:45,010 --> 00:06:48,250 S3: up there all by himself and going around and, uh, 110 00:06:48,490 --> 00:06:51,290 S3: took a whole heap of photos and slept in his tent. 111 00:06:51,490 --> 00:06:55,089 S3: And when he had a look at his pictures, he 112 00:06:55,089 --> 00:06:59,960 S3: was astounded and I imagine, uh, very disturbed to discover 113 00:06:59,960 --> 00:07:07,000 S3: there was a picture of himself asleep in his tent. And, uh, 114 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,320 S3: so a lot of people assume that the button man 115 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,600 S3: had turned up and decided to announce that he'd been 116 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:16,120 S3: there by taking a photo and then disappearing again. 117 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:18,920 S2: And before we get into the latest case and why 118 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:22,320 S2: we're talking about this area yet again, and some, you know, 119 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:24,840 S2: very dark crimes, I just quickly want to ask you 120 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,040 S2: about your own interest in this area because you are 121 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:30,760 S2: from Victoria, the not from this region, but you did 122 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:32,800 S2: grow up on the land elsewhere. So why are you 123 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,920 S2: so interested in these crimes, these stories? 124 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,960 S3: Well, I was fortunate enough in the 1980s, uh, late 125 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,520 S3: 70s 80s to, uh, get to know a number of 126 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:47,000 S3: high country cattlemen who ran their cattle up on the 127 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:51,120 S3: Bogong High Plains during the spring and summer and then 128 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:53,800 S3: had to bring them down before the snow fell. And 129 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,950 S3: that was known as the Muster, and I was invited 130 00:07:57,110 --> 00:08:00,670 S3: to attend several of these musters, and they would provide 131 00:08:00,670 --> 00:08:04,110 S3: a horse for me and in the evenings in the old, 132 00:08:04,150 --> 00:08:07,630 S3: old cattlemen's huts up there in the high country, we'd 133 00:08:07,630 --> 00:08:09,830 S3: sit around a fire and they would tell me stories 134 00:08:09,830 --> 00:08:13,950 S3: about this place. Their knowledge, which went back a very 135 00:08:13,950 --> 00:08:17,550 S3: long time, and their father's knowledge and so forth. And 136 00:08:17,550 --> 00:08:21,070 S3: so it became a place of fascination for me and 137 00:08:21,070 --> 00:08:25,910 S3: also love. I just grew to love that country. And 138 00:08:25,910 --> 00:08:30,590 S3: so this place and its stories cast a bit of 139 00:08:30,590 --> 00:08:33,270 S3: a spell on me, I suppose. And and still do. 140 00:08:38,790 --> 00:08:45,990 S2: We'll be right back. Okay, well, let's get into why 141 00:08:45,990 --> 00:08:48,990 S2: we are talking about this now, because of course, as 142 00:08:49,030 --> 00:08:51,830 S2: we're recording this on Tuesday morning, we're now into the 143 00:08:51,830 --> 00:08:55,260 S2: eighth day of a police hunt, a Hunter manhunt for 144 00:08:55,580 --> 00:08:59,140 S2: Desi Freeman, an alleged police murderer. As this airs, it'll 145 00:08:59,179 --> 00:09:01,460 S2: be the ninth day. If he's still on the run, then. 146 00:09:01,460 --> 00:09:05,660 S2: So he too has disappeared into the high country's forest. 147 00:09:05,860 --> 00:09:09,620 S2: So I guess. Does this have anything, do you think, 148 00:09:09,620 --> 00:09:11,900 S2: to do with what he's alleged to have done? 149 00:09:12,500 --> 00:09:15,180 S3: Well, I guess there are a lot of people up there, 150 00:09:15,220 --> 00:09:21,260 S3: some of whom, uh, support his very bizarre views. He's, um, 151 00:09:21,300 --> 00:09:24,780 S3: known as a sovereign citizen and, uh, and lived in 152 00:09:24,780 --> 00:09:27,939 S3: what you might call a compound of like minded people 153 00:09:27,940 --> 00:09:31,380 S3: at the foot of Mount Buffalo with the mountains and 154 00:09:31,380 --> 00:09:35,620 S3: the forests right behind him. And after this event, where 155 00:09:35,660 --> 00:09:41,260 S3: two policemen were shot dead and another was wounded. Desi 156 00:09:41,260 --> 00:09:47,180 S3: Freeman headed off and was last seen disappearing into the 157 00:09:47,179 --> 00:09:50,980 S3: forest at the foot of Mount Buffalo. Now he's known 158 00:09:50,980 --> 00:09:54,800 S3: as a man who has frequented in those areas. He's 159 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:58,160 S3: been a hunter. He's been a survivalist. He knows the 160 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,920 S3: bush pretty well. And for quite some time there was 161 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:04,880 S3: this belief that perhaps he had a hide up there 162 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:07,760 S3: in the mountain country, which would be stocked with food 163 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:12,000 S3: and so forth, the survivalist thing. And that is no 164 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:17,400 S3: longer necessarily the, uh, major theory. There is now a 165 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:21,760 S3: theory coming around that he's being helped by one or 166 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,679 S3: more of his supporters, and he may have got away 167 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,480 S3: to somewhere else or whatever. But the facts are that 168 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,800 S3: this is a first class mystery. I suppose there are 169 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:37,840 S3: 450 police up there trying to find Desi Freeman, a 170 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:42,040 S3: man who actually changed his name to Freeman from his 171 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:47,840 S3: real name of Philby, because it it fits the myth 172 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:51,880 S3: that he's created around himself and the sovereign citizen movement 173 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:55,829 S3: and the free men of the land, uh, as, uh, 174 00:10:55,830 --> 00:10:58,430 S3: as some of them are called. But if he is 175 00:10:58,429 --> 00:11:01,910 S3: in that forested area or on the mountainside or otherwise, 176 00:11:02,190 --> 00:11:06,710 S3: then he has to be in a very secure hide 177 00:11:06,710 --> 00:11:09,310 S3: that is protected from the weather. There are two reasons 178 00:11:09,309 --> 00:11:14,350 S3: for this. One is the fact that helicopters are constantly 179 00:11:14,750 --> 00:11:20,510 S3: flying over the area with heat imaging technology, and it hasn't. 180 00:11:20,830 --> 00:11:23,110 S3: None of them have picked up a track of him, 181 00:11:23,110 --> 00:11:27,830 S3: which they would have, but it's possible. Some theorize that 182 00:11:28,110 --> 00:11:30,910 S3: he's got an underground bunker. There are a lot of 183 00:11:30,950 --> 00:11:35,990 S3: old gold mining shafts in that whole area which Desi 184 00:11:36,030 --> 00:11:41,350 S3: Freeman would know about. Um, and maybe he has converted 185 00:11:41,350 --> 00:11:43,870 S3: one of them into a hide. Maybe he hasn't. 186 00:11:44,230 --> 00:11:46,709 S2: Now, I really want to ask you, just before moving 187 00:11:46,710 --> 00:11:48,950 S2: on to what the locals in the area told you. 188 00:11:48,950 --> 00:11:50,830 S2: Because we're so lucky you were there on the ground 189 00:11:50,830 --> 00:11:53,100 S2: asking people about him. But I do want to ask, 190 00:11:53,140 --> 00:11:55,260 S2: you know, before we started recording, you told me that 191 00:11:55,260 --> 00:11:59,900 S2: Desi's house is only 60km by road from Glenrowan. 192 00:11:59,940 --> 00:12:01,220 S3: Across country? Yeah. 193 00:12:01,260 --> 00:12:04,660 S2: Where? Of course, Ned Kelly was famously captured by police 194 00:12:04,660 --> 00:12:08,420 S2: at Glenrowan. And you've just mentioned all of these, you know, 195 00:12:08,460 --> 00:12:12,179 S2: bushrangers and outlaws and criminals and quite dark crimes really, too, 196 00:12:12,220 --> 00:12:14,580 S2: that have taken place in the area. Is there any 197 00:12:14,580 --> 00:12:18,060 S2: suggestion that he has gravitated to this area because of that, 198 00:12:18,059 --> 00:12:19,460 S2: or is this just where he grew up or just 199 00:12:19,460 --> 00:12:21,339 S2: where he lived, just, you know, happenstance? 200 00:12:21,380 --> 00:12:25,580 S3: I don't think he's gravitated there because of these old stories. 201 00:12:25,580 --> 00:12:28,420 S3: I think he's gravitated there simply because it's a fairly 202 00:12:28,420 --> 00:12:32,420 S3: remote area, and he could afford to to live there. 203 00:12:32,420 --> 00:12:37,660 S3: And there are others of his beliefs with whom he 204 00:12:37,660 --> 00:12:41,900 S3: could live. And I discovered a number of people had 205 00:12:41,900 --> 00:12:44,740 S3: similar beliefs wandering around the place, although they didn't call 206 00:12:44,740 --> 00:12:50,140 S3: themselves sovereign citizens. There were people who sympathised with him 207 00:12:50,620 --> 00:12:54,650 S3: and the police are very aware of that. He's lived 208 00:12:54,690 --> 00:12:56,809 S3: there for a long time. He lived for quite some 209 00:12:56,809 --> 00:12:58,570 S3: time on the other side of Mount Buffalo at a 210 00:12:58,570 --> 00:13:02,250 S3: place called Nag Nag. So he does know the mountains 211 00:13:02,250 --> 00:13:06,410 S3: very well. He hunts. Those who have, uh, visited him 212 00:13:06,410 --> 00:13:09,570 S3: in the past have seen carcasses of of deer hanging 213 00:13:09,570 --> 00:13:12,730 S3: up and being salted because, uh, it's part of his 214 00:13:12,730 --> 00:13:15,930 S3: survivalist technique. I suppose he does know how to hunt. 215 00:13:15,970 --> 00:13:18,530 S3: He knows how to get around the mountains. And so 216 00:13:18,570 --> 00:13:22,850 S3: I guess it was a a useful area for him, 217 00:13:22,890 --> 00:13:26,610 S3: whether he saw himself as some form of Ned Kelly, 218 00:13:26,610 --> 00:13:31,490 S3: I don't know, but certainly some people are romancing that 219 00:13:31,490 --> 00:13:34,569 S3: at the moment up there. Um, my view about that 220 00:13:34,570 --> 00:13:37,690 S3: is that, you know, the only real comparison that can 221 00:13:37,690 --> 00:13:40,090 S3: be made is that Ned Kelly and his gang murdered 222 00:13:40,090 --> 00:13:44,370 S3: three policemen. I don't think, uh, Desi Freeman is a 223 00:13:44,370 --> 00:13:48,569 S3: Ned Kelly sort of guy, really. I mean, I did 224 00:13:48,570 --> 00:13:50,840 S3: point out in one of my stories that even Ned 225 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:55,359 S3: Kelly probably wouldn't have taken the, uh, the King's shilling 226 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:58,440 S3: in that Desi Freeman has been living off, uh, government 227 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:02,800 S3: benefits while rejecting everything to do with the government and, uh, 228 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:04,320 S3: and traditional society. 229 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:06,360 S4: I mean, is there any risk, do you think that. 230 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,520 S2: Desi Freeman is being glorified much in the way that, 231 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,920 S2: you know, many of us have romanticized stories of bushrangers 232 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:14,000 S2: of times gone past? 233 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,640 S3: Oh, I think it's it's it's inevitable that some people 234 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,440 S3: will go down that path because they they want the 235 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:24,760 S3: romantic story. It's not a romantic story. Two policemen have 236 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:30,400 S3: been shot dead in cold blood, another one wounded, and 237 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,880 S3: a man is missing in that area. I think those 238 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,560 S3: who want to turn it into a, uh, a part 239 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:40,440 S3: of the legend of the past, uh, badly advised. 240 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:41,600 S4: I'm so interested. 241 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:43,960 S2: You just said that, you know, people might want to. 242 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,640 S2: Or they will want to. They want the romantic story. Why? 243 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,080 S2: Why do they want the romantic story when so much 244 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,230 S2: of the coverage, of course, of this man. And it's 245 00:14:51,230 --> 00:14:54,070 S2: just alleged at this point. I mean, it's horrifying. You know, 246 00:14:54,110 --> 00:14:58,070 S2: these policemen were allegedly ambushed, you know, murdered still in 247 00:14:58,070 --> 00:15:00,030 S2: the prime of their lives. I mean, it really is 248 00:15:00,030 --> 00:15:02,670 S2: quite horrific. So why do people want the romantic story? 249 00:15:03,110 --> 00:15:08,710 S3: Well, Australian history has romanticised bushrangers in the mountains. And 250 00:15:08,870 --> 00:15:11,990 S3: and Ned Kelly is at the leading edge of that, 251 00:15:11,990 --> 00:15:14,910 S3: I suppose. There have been movies about him. There've been books, 252 00:15:15,030 --> 00:15:18,350 S3: endless books. There are those who see him as a 253 00:15:18,550 --> 00:15:21,230 S3: some sort of a freedom fighter, a man who stood 254 00:15:21,230 --> 00:15:23,870 S3: up for the little people and all the rest of it. 255 00:15:24,070 --> 00:15:28,390 S3: Mad Dan Morgan is perhaps less romanticized, but there has 256 00:15:28,390 --> 00:15:33,390 S3: been a movie made of him. I think that people 257 00:15:33,390 --> 00:15:36,670 S3: who are locked to a desk, if you like, or 258 00:15:36,750 --> 00:15:40,510 S3: stranded in a city or in a life that isn't 259 00:15:40,510 --> 00:15:44,910 S3: all that exciting, may well be the sort of people 260 00:15:44,910 --> 00:15:49,650 S3: who need a story like that to give their their 261 00:15:49,650 --> 00:15:51,930 S3: lives a, uh, a bit of a kick. 262 00:15:52,530 --> 00:15:54,610 S2: And, Tony, just as a last question, you know, so 263 00:15:54,610 --> 00:15:58,330 S2: much of our reporting has focused on Desi Freeman's beliefs, 264 00:15:58,370 --> 00:16:01,570 S2: you know, as him being this person who's anti-government, anti-police, 265 00:16:01,570 --> 00:16:04,850 S2: a conspiracy theorist. But what was your impression of him 266 00:16:04,850 --> 00:16:07,370 S2: after your trip there? Like, what did locals tell you? 267 00:16:07,610 --> 00:16:10,370 S3: Well, most most of the locals, of course, don't know 268 00:16:10,370 --> 00:16:14,810 S3: anything about sovereign citizens or the freedom movement or otherwise. 269 00:16:15,010 --> 00:16:17,690 S3: And they're revolted by the fact that two policemen have 270 00:16:17,690 --> 00:16:20,810 S3: been killed and another wounded. But here and there you 271 00:16:20,850 --> 00:16:24,890 S3: would come across people who have gone down the rabbit hole, 272 00:16:24,930 --> 00:16:29,650 S3: as it were, and the conspiracy theories that have grown 273 00:16:29,850 --> 00:16:34,770 S3: over the years, particularly since, uh, the lockdowns of the pandemic. 274 00:16:35,050 --> 00:16:41,330 S3: Desi Freeman himself clearly became seriously radicalized during that period, 275 00:16:41,610 --> 00:16:45,250 S3: and his hatred of authority and police and everything else 276 00:16:45,650 --> 00:16:50,080 S3: came to the fore. Conspiracy theories have always been around. 277 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:54,800 S3: They quite often are found fairly deeply embedded in areas 278 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:59,160 S3: of country communities, in particular, where people feel that they 279 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:07,159 S3: have been bypassed by wider society or economically and educationally 280 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,720 S3: and all sorts of other ways, and are searching for 281 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:16,400 S3: for something, for an ideology. And a number of them 282 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:21,240 S3: have found this particularly strange, imported from the United States 283 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:26,920 S3: and other nations, views about authority and about pseudo law, 284 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:32,840 S3: and that they don't have to answer to society. There's 285 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,400 S3: a little bit of that around, and I think you'll 286 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,360 S3: find it in many areas of Australia. 287 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:45,400 S2: Well, Tony, we're so lucky that you took the time 288 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,990 S2: to travel this area that I know you do love. 289 00:17:47,990 --> 00:17:49,669 S2: So you could give us this report from the ground. 290 00:17:49,670 --> 00:17:51,750 S2: So thank you so much for your time. 291 00:17:51,790 --> 00:17:53,150 S3: My pleasure. Samantha. 292 00:18:00,790 --> 00:18:03,949 S2: Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Josh 293 00:18:03,950 --> 00:18:08,590 S2: towers with technical assistance by Julia Carcasole. Our executive producer 294 00:18:08,590 --> 00:18:11,949 S2: is Tami Mills. Tom McKendrick is our head of audio. 295 00:18:12,390 --> 00:18:14,909 S2: To listen to our episodes as soon as they drop, 296 00:18:14,910 --> 00:18:18,469 S2: follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you 297 00:18:18,470 --> 00:18:22,830 S2: listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered by subscriptions, so 298 00:18:22,830 --> 00:18:28,869 S2: to support independent journalism, visit the page or smh.com.au. Subscribe. 299 00:18:29,470 --> 00:18:31,310 S2: And to stay up to date, sign up to our 300 00:18:31,310 --> 00:18:33,870 S2: Morning Edition newsletter to receive a summary of the day's 301 00:18:33,869 --> 00:18:38,070 S2: most important news in your inbox every morning. Links are 302 00:18:38,070 --> 00:18:42,469 S2: in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris, thanks for listening.