1 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,960 S1: Ronald Reagan's presidency of the 1980s is known as the 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:12,799 S1: Reagan Revolution, while Franklin D Roosevelt, the only president who 3 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,720 S1: has served for more than two terms, is known for 4 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:20,640 S1: his reformist agenda. So now that it's officially a year 5 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:25,000 S1: on from Donald Trump's inauguration for a second time, how 6 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,680 S1: does the scale of what he is upended and changed compare? 7 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,760 S1: I'm Tammy Mills, filling in for Samantha Salinger Morris, and 8 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,120 S1: you're listening to Morning Edition from The Age and the 9 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:42,919 S1: Sydney Morning Herald today, North America correspondent Michael Koziol on 10 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:46,680 S1: the deliberate chaos of the Trump presidency and whether he's 11 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:50,440 S1: likely to toss aside legalities again and run for a 12 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:59,880 S1: third term. So, Michael, thanks for joining us. 13 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:01,040 S2: Thanks for having me. 14 00:01:01,050 --> 00:01:04,770 S1: So, Michael, it's kind of hard to believe what's happened 15 00:01:04,770 --> 00:01:11,450 S1: in the first 12 months in terms of what's been dismantled, disbanded, introduced, changed. 16 00:01:11,490 --> 00:01:14,330 S1: I mean, take your pick of the words, but how 17 00:01:14,330 --> 00:01:15,810 S1: would you describe the first year? 18 00:01:16,090 --> 00:01:19,130 S2: Well, that's right. I mean, it's kind of deliberate chaos, right? 19 00:01:19,170 --> 00:01:22,370 S2: It's funny, I was talking to I interviewed Steve Bannon, 20 00:01:22,410 --> 00:01:26,650 S2: the sort of prominent MAGA figure, um, the other day. And, 21 00:01:26,690 --> 00:01:29,449 S2: you know, he was saying that that even he was 22 00:01:29,450 --> 00:01:33,330 S2: shocked by how fast Trump has moved and the extent 23 00:01:33,330 --> 00:01:36,330 S2: of the disruption. Uh, and, you know, we were talking 24 00:01:36,330 --> 00:01:41,410 S2: about the capture of, uh, Nicolas Maduro, the Venezuelan leader. 25 00:01:41,410 --> 00:01:44,690 S2: We were talking about Iran. We were talking about the 26 00:01:44,690 --> 00:01:49,170 S2: Gaza piece board changes to drug policy, uh, here in 27 00:01:49,170 --> 00:01:52,770 S2: the US, the events in Minneapolis and the kind of 28 00:01:52,770 --> 00:01:57,090 S2: ramifications of Trump's immigration crackdown. Uh, and these are only 29 00:01:57,130 --> 00:01:59,490 S2: things that are happening in the last three weeks, like 30 00:01:59,490 --> 00:02:03,340 S2: this year. Um, so that kind of, you know, you 31 00:02:03,380 --> 00:02:05,700 S2: sort of have forgotten all the things that even happened 32 00:02:05,700 --> 00:02:09,180 S2: back in February. I mean, this term started with a 33 00:02:09,180 --> 00:02:13,260 S2: flurry of executive orders. Uh, you know, day one was 34 00:02:13,260 --> 00:02:17,740 S2: pardoning the January 6th rioters. Uh, you sort of almost 35 00:02:17,740 --> 00:02:20,940 S2: forget about that now. Um, except some of them have 36 00:02:20,940 --> 00:02:24,540 S2: signed up to Ice and are now, um, enforcing immigration 37 00:02:24,540 --> 00:02:26,860 S2: law on, uh, the streets of big cities. So it 38 00:02:26,900 --> 00:02:30,540 S2: kind of comes full circle. But, you know, domestically, on 39 00:02:30,540 --> 00:02:34,380 S2: the global stage, uh, it has just been one thing 40 00:02:34,419 --> 00:02:37,740 S2: after the other. And as Bannon, you know, was explicit 41 00:02:37,740 --> 00:02:40,980 S2: about this is partly because, you know, they want to 42 00:02:40,980 --> 00:02:44,060 S2: change the country after four years of Biden. And, you know, 43 00:02:44,100 --> 00:02:46,140 S2: fair enough. It's a new government. When you change the 44 00:02:46,139 --> 00:02:49,139 S2: government you change the country. But also that this is 45 00:02:49,139 --> 00:02:52,980 S2: part of a deliberate strategy to, as they say, flood 46 00:02:52,980 --> 00:02:56,139 S2: the zone to overwhelm the system so that there will 47 00:02:56,139 --> 00:02:59,780 S2: be so much change, so much chaos, that the institutions 48 00:02:59,780 --> 00:03:03,310 S2: like the media, like the judiciary just can't keep up. 49 00:03:03,350 --> 00:03:05,549 S1: Listeners will probably be able to hear some sirens in 50 00:03:05,550 --> 00:03:08,190 S1: the background there, which I don't know. We haven't put 51 00:03:08,190 --> 00:03:11,350 S1: in for dramatic for dramatic effect. 52 00:03:11,389 --> 00:03:15,070 S2: It's not some sort of ice raid or whatever. It's, uh, 53 00:03:15,110 --> 00:03:18,910 S2: that's pretty standard. If for some reason American sirens insist 54 00:03:18,910 --> 00:03:24,830 S2: on being incredibly loud at all times, um, and unnecessarily loud, uh, 55 00:03:24,950 --> 00:03:26,950 S2: so that's just part of American life. 56 00:03:28,550 --> 00:03:31,470 S1: So with all the changes that have happened in this 57 00:03:31,470 --> 00:03:34,990 S1: first year, can you give me a bit more context historically? 58 00:03:35,030 --> 00:03:40,150 S1: I mean, is it completely unprecedented for a president? Have 59 00:03:40,150 --> 00:03:43,710 S1: we ever seen a president in US history change so 60 00:03:43,710 --> 00:03:44,710 S1: much so quickly? 61 00:03:45,150 --> 00:03:47,190 S2: Oh not really. I mean, you know, you could make 62 00:03:47,190 --> 00:03:50,710 S2: the case that FDR, um, was, uh, you know, a 63 00:03:50,830 --> 00:03:54,990 S2: big reforming president. Um. Ronald Reagan was a big reforming president. 64 00:03:54,990 --> 00:03:58,230 S2: They call it the Reagan revolution in the 1980s. But 65 00:03:58,230 --> 00:04:01,310 S2: no one has kind of done this much this quickly. Um, 66 00:04:01,310 --> 00:04:05,600 S2: and also, you know, in such a deliberate way by 67 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:09,480 S2: expanding the personal power of the president. Um, you know, 68 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:11,480 S2: I mean, other presidents have sought to change the country, 69 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,520 S2: but Trump has done it in a particular way where 70 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:19,520 S2: he is expanding what the office is capable of. Um, and, 71 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:25,039 S2: you know, in many ways rendering, uh, the Congress irrelevant. Um, 72 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:29,440 S2: you know, the judiciary arguably has given him, uh, a 73 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,039 S2: harder time. Um, and, you know, we've seen a lot 74 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:36,200 S2: of his, uh, uh, policy changes kind of held up 75 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:39,400 S2: in the courts or blocked in the courts. Um, but, 76 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,960 S2: you know, then they sometimes get overturned by a higher court, 77 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,240 S2: and he's got a Supreme Court, uh, you know, that 78 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:50,279 S2: is has a conservative supermajority that has, you know, when 79 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,480 S2: cases eventually make their way to the Supreme Court has, 80 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,920 S2: you know, ruled pretty often in his favor, including on 81 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:01,000 S2: these big questions about article two of the Constitution, which 82 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:05,330 S2: deals with the extent of presidential power. So again, you're 83 00:05:05,330 --> 00:05:09,650 S2: seeing a very deliberate effort to, um, sort of use 84 00:05:09,650 --> 00:05:14,250 S2: that part of the Constitution to make Trump not only 85 00:05:14,250 --> 00:05:18,450 S2: the commander in chief, but the chief magistrate, the chief 86 00:05:18,450 --> 00:05:22,730 S2: legal officer, the CEO of the country, um, as Steve 87 00:05:22,770 --> 00:05:25,490 S2: Bannon put it, um, and really, you know, rule with 88 00:05:25,490 --> 00:05:26,770 S2: an iron fist, almost. 89 00:05:26,770 --> 00:05:30,210 S1: And something that kind of typifies the Trump presidency. You know, 90 00:05:30,250 --> 00:05:32,530 S1: the last 12 months has been the tariffs, right? Which 91 00:05:32,529 --> 00:05:35,330 S1: is the method that he's used in this first year 92 00:05:35,330 --> 00:05:38,010 S1: in order to force nations to bend to his will. 93 00:05:38,010 --> 00:05:40,050 S1: So tell us a little bit about that. 94 00:05:40,089 --> 00:05:44,169 S2: Yeah, I mean, that's his number one economic policy, right. Um, 95 00:05:44,330 --> 00:05:47,250 S2: is and it's kind of a foreign policy as well. 96 00:05:47,250 --> 00:05:50,610 S2: It's a, it's a for all purposes policy. Um, you know, 97 00:05:50,650 --> 00:05:54,490 S2: at home the tariffs are designed to sort of bring 98 00:05:54,490 --> 00:05:57,330 S2: back domestic manufacturing. This idea that there's going to be 99 00:05:57,330 --> 00:06:00,850 S2: another golden age of American manufacturing, that companies are not 100 00:06:00,850 --> 00:06:02,850 S2: going to want to pay these tariffs. So they're going 101 00:06:02,850 --> 00:06:04,850 S2: to move jobs back to the US, and they're going 102 00:06:04,890 --> 00:06:07,730 S2: to invest trillions of dollars in the United States. And 103 00:06:07,730 --> 00:06:11,290 S2: then in the foreign policy sense, he's using these tariffs 104 00:06:11,290 --> 00:06:15,090 S2: to basically bully other countries using the power of the 105 00:06:15,089 --> 00:06:18,090 S2: American market. Uh, and, you know, we've seen that just 106 00:06:18,089 --> 00:06:22,170 S2: this week, uh, with Greenland. So, you know, unless Denmark 107 00:06:22,170 --> 00:06:24,250 S2: and all these other European countries do what I want 108 00:06:24,290 --> 00:06:26,490 S2: and give us Greenland, uh, I'm going to hit you 109 00:06:26,490 --> 00:06:29,890 S2: with additional tariffs. And, you know, I mean, look, uh, 110 00:06:30,050 --> 00:06:32,890 S2: we've seen that it works. Countries don't like them. They 111 00:06:32,890 --> 00:06:35,610 S2: don't want their products to be hit by them. And 112 00:06:35,610 --> 00:06:40,050 S2: so they're willing to jump pretty high. Um, when Trump 113 00:06:40,050 --> 00:06:43,690 S2: threatens them with tariffs, it's been pretty effective, although that 114 00:06:43,690 --> 00:06:47,250 S2: could all end any day. Now when the Supreme Court 115 00:06:47,330 --> 00:06:51,529 S2: makes its decision as to whether these tariffs are legal 116 00:06:51,529 --> 00:06:53,849 S2: or not, we're sort of just, you know, waiting for 117 00:06:53,930 --> 00:06:57,090 S2: that to come. It could be any day. Um, and 118 00:06:57,089 --> 00:07:00,890 S2: that would just blow up Donald Trump's agenda. Um, having 119 00:07:00,890 --> 00:07:04,660 S2: said that, the The administration says that they are, you know, 120 00:07:04,700 --> 00:07:07,060 S2: they've got a plan B, they reckon they can, you know, 121 00:07:07,100 --> 00:07:11,620 S2: reconstitute the tariff framework using other laws. We'll see about that. 122 00:07:11,620 --> 00:07:13,580 S2: There's no doubt that if the Supreme Court were to 123 00:07:13,580 --> 00:07:16,700 S2: knock those tariffs down, it would represent the biggest defeat 124 00:07:16,700 --> 00:07:20,100 S2: Donald Trump has had to date in his second term. 125 00:07:20,100 --> 00:07:22,140 S1: And it could really kind of upend one of the 126 00:07:22,140 --> 00:07:25,740 S1: hallmarks of his presidency so far. And some of the things, 127 00:07:25,780 --> 00:07:27,780 S1: other things that he's done on the global stage has 128 00:07:27,780 --> 00:07:30,380 S1: also been significant. And you've touched on a bit of 129 00:07:30,420 --> 00:07:33,260 S1: a highlight or a low light, depending on which side 130 00:07:33,260 --> 00:07:35,460 S1: of politics you're on. But talk to some of the 131 00:07:35,460 --> 00:07:39,060 S1: more significant changes that he's made on the global stage. 132 00:07:39,260 --> 00:07:42,420 S2: Well, look, I think blowing up the sort of liberal 133 00:07:42,420 --> 00:07:46,060 S2: world order, um, that has been normalised for the past 134 00:07:46,060 --> 00:07:48,740 S2: decades is, you know, it hasn't been completely destroyed. But 135 00:07:48,740 --> 00:07:51,500 S2: we're certainly seeing at the moment, uh, just how much 136 00:07:51,500 --> 00:07:55,140 S2: stress Trump is putting on it. Um, you know, we 137 00:07:55,140 --> 00:08:00,020 S2: see that traditional alliances like the NATO alliance, um, are 138 00:08:00,260 --> 00:08:03,790 S2: not a sort of, you know, rigid, principled thing for 139 00:08:03,790 --> 00:08:07,510 S2: this president that, um, he feels like if there's some 140 00:08:07,630 --> 00:08:10,510 S2: advantage that he wants to extract from some country, whether 141 00:08:10,510 --> 00:08:13,470 S2: it's an ally, um, he will do that. Um, if 142 00:08:13,470 --> 00:08:15,790 S2: he wants to whack tariffs on an ally, he will 143 00:08:15,790 --> 00:08:19,110 S2: do that. Uh, so all of the kind of rules 144 00:08:19,150 --> 00:08:21,550 S2: based order that, you know, the West has kind of 145 00:08:21,590 --> 00:08:26,830 S2: rallied around, um, has gone out the window. We've seen him, uh, 146 00:08:27,110 --> 00:08:30,230 S2: you know, I don't want to say cozy up to Putin, um, 147 00:08:30,230 --> 00:08:34,390 S2: because I think, you know, I think a lot of 148 00:08:34,390 --> 00:08:39,949 S2: this is designed to kind of long term counter Moscow 149 00:08:39,950 --> 00:08:42,910 S2: and Beijing. But I think there's also no doubt that 150 00:08:42,910 --> 00:08:47,670 S2: Donald Trump has different ideas about power and how that 151 00:08:47,670 --> 00:08:51,070 S2: power is owned by countries like China and Russia, which 152 00:08:51,070 --> 00:08:54,150 S2: is sort of these, you know, regional, regional hegemons or 153 00:08:54,190 --> 00:08:56,790 S2: semi hegemons. Uh, I think there's no doubt in Donald 154 00:08:56,790 --> 00:09:00,270 S2: Trump's mind that, you know, Russia is a large, um, 155 00:09:00,309 --> 00:09:02,830 S2: country with a big military, and therefore it kind of 156 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,200 S2: gets to do what it wants a bit, including, you know, uh, 157 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,520 S2: in Ukraine where he, you know, wants to end the 158 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:13,360 S2: war but has been prepared to indulge a lot of 159 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:17,240 S2: Vladimir Putin's whims and really not put the pressure on 160 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:21,439 S2: Vladimir Putin that people would like Donald Trump to put, um, 161 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:25,000 S2: on him. And the same with China. Um, I think, 162 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:27,320 S2: you know, although a lot of this kind of American 163 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,640 S2: policy is designed to counter China so that it doesn't 164 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:35,120 S2: threaten the US too much. Um, he's also prepared to say, well, 165 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:39,080 S2: you know, China, it's a big, powerful country. Uh, and, 166 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:43,200 S2: you know, to some extent he respects that. Um, and, 167 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:47,080 S2: you know, he hasn't wanted countries like Japan to push 168 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,640 S2: back too hard against China's plans on Taiwan, especially, at 169 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,559 S2: least not vocally. Um, Trump has been very much saying, 170 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,000 S2: you know, he believes XI Jinping, there's no way he'd 171 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,640 S2: make a move on Taiwan, at least not while, you know, 172 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:02,240 S2: he Trump is president. And so, uh, you know, it's 173 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:05,330 S2: a it's a different approach to that kind of geopolitics 174 00:10:05,330 --> 00:10:08,490 S2: where it is, you know, survival of the fittest. It's 175 00:10:08,530 --> 00:10:12,490 S2: a law of the jungle, as some analysts put it. Um, where, 176 00:10:12,530 --> 00:10:16,970 S2: you know, the, the big, strong countries get respected and 177 00:10:16,970 --> 00:10:19,809 S2: in a sense get bowed down to and the weaker 178 00:10:19,809 --> 00:10:21,490 S2: countries get taken advantage of. 179 00:10:25,970 --> 00:10:27,050 S1: After the break. 180 00:10:28,010 --> 00:10:30,570 S2: He's been banging this drum for a while on his 181 00:10:30,570 --> 00:10:33,250 S2: podcast that, you know, Donald Trump is going to run 182 00:10:33,250 --> 00:10:37,170 S2: again in 2028, to quote Bannon, drive a mack truck 183 00:10:37,170 --> 00:10:40,370 S2: through the 22nd amendment of the Constitution, which is the 184 00:10:40,410 --> 00:10:43,850 S2: bit that prevents someone being elected president more than twice. 185 00:10:57,010 --> 00:11:00,489 S1: So let's turn to now like what is actually upended 186 00:11:00,490 --> 00:11:03,780 S1: or changed within the US. And you read a list 187 00:11:03,780 --> 00:11:06,140 S1: of all of them and it's kind of mind boggling. 188 00:11:06,140 --> 00:11:07,739 S1: So take us through some of those. 189 00:11:08,179 --> 00:11:13,820 S2: Look, I think the biggest one at the moment is immigration. Um, 190 00:11:13,860 --> 00:11:17,020 S2: I mean, and there's multiple facets to that. I think 191 00:11:17,059 --> 00:11:21,500 S2: one of Trump's first and arguably most successful policies was 192 00:11:21,500 --> 00:11:25,140 S2: to basically crack down on border crossings on the southern border. Now, 193 00:11:25,900 --> 00:11:28,380 S2: a lot of those border crossings had started to come 194 00:11:28,380 --> 00:11:30,740 S2: down anyway. I mean, it did get out of control 195 00:11:30,740 --> 00:11:33,220 S2: under Joe Biden, and that was a large part of 196 00:11:33,220 --> 00:11:36,420 S2: why the Democrats lost that election. But those numbers had 197 00:11:36,420 --> 00:11:39,340 S2: already started to really fall. Joe Biden had been cracking 198 00:11:39,340 --> 00:11:42,699 S2: down on illegal border crossings. But Trump, you know, has 199 00:11:42,700 --> 00:11:46,900 S2: got it down to a trickle, basically nothing. Now things 200 00:11:46,900 --> 00:11:50,380 S2: have turned to the deportations, which he also promised before 201 00:11:50,380 --> 00:11:54,580 S2: the election. You know, the biggest deportation, mass deportation drive 202 00:11:54,580 --> 00:11:57,620 S2: the country's ever seen. Uh, you know, the numbers change, but, 203 00:11:57,660 --> 00:12:01,420 S2: you know, they talk about getting 11, 13, 15 million 204 00:12:01,420 --> 00:12:04,790 S2: people out of the country. That's a lot more difficult. 205 00:12:04,790 --> 00:12:07,950 S2: And we're seeing the repercussions of that right now on 206 00:12:08,190 --> 00:12:12,950 S2: city streets around the US, because that means ice, the, 207 00:12:12,990 --> 00:12:17,510 S2: you know, sort of immigration enforcement squad, um, going around 208 00:12:17,550 --> 00:12:20,550 S2: pulling people over at traffic stops trying to hunt down. Now, 209 00:12:20,590 --> 00:12:24,110 S2: you know, sometimes they're hunting down criminals, uh, and, you know, 210 00:12:24,150 --> 00:12:26,910 S2: heinous criminals that that murderers, rapists, what have you. There's 211 00:12:26,910 --> 00:12:30,350 S2: plenty of those. Um, but it also means, uh, hunting 212 00:12:30,350 --> 00:12:32,990 S2: down people who are just here without, you know, they're 213 00:12:32,990 --> 00:12:36,430 S2: not here lawfully. They don't have the right documents. Um, uh, 214 00:12:36,470 --> 00:12:37,830 S2: but that. But they could have been here for a 215 00:12:37,830 --> 00:12:40,510 S2: long time. They might have families here. They've got jobs. 216 00:12:40,510 --> 00:12:43,630 S2: They're a part of church communities, school communities. And that 217 00:12:43,630 --> 00:12:46,910 S2: is creating great tension. So that's one thing we're seeing 218 00:12:46,910 --> 00:12:48,550 S2: that play out every day. We're seeing it play out 219 00:12:48,550 --> 00:12:50,910 S2: in Minneapolis at the moment. Um, but of course, every 220 00:12:50,910 --> 00:12:53,870 S2: other aspect of American life has been upended, too. I mean, 221 00:12:53,910 --> 00:12:57,429 S2: there are changes to the vaccine schedule, um, which have 222 00:12:57,429 --> 00:13:00,630 S2: been enacted by Robert Kennedy, the health secretary. He's basically 223 00:13:00,630 --> 00:13:05,559 S2: been empowered to, um, you know, bring his considerable vaccine 224 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:10,199 S2: skepticism to, uh, to bear upon American children. Um, and 225 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:14,880 S2: those changes are being made. Uh, the Education department was abolished. Uh, 226 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:17,439 S2: you're seeing the size of government shrunk. Uh, we had 227 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,640 S2: Elon Musk, uh, and his, you know, team, his razor 228 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:24,360 S2: gang of young cost cutters, the Department of Government Efficiency, 229 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:28,480 S2: sort of, you know, um, run riot through the American government. Um, 230 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:33,720 S2: we had the dismantling of USAID, the foreign aid program. Uh, again, 231 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:35,679 S2: you know, you can hardly remember it now because so 232 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:41,680 S2: much has happened since then. Um, the, you know, really big, um, uh, 233 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,920 S2: the really big consequences for transgender people in the US, um, 234 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,960 S2: you know, the administration now says don't exist. They do 235 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,280 S2: not believe, uh, that there is such thing as a 236 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:54,800 S2: transgender person. They say that there are only two sexes, 237 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:58,160 S2: male and female. And that policy is now being reflected through, 238 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,600 S2: you know, every aspect of American life, whether it's sports, um, 239 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,810 S2: or whether it's, um, in the military, you know. No 240 00:14:05,809 --> 00:14:09,010 S2: longer allowed to serve. Being kicked out of the military. Um, 241 00:14:09,050 --> 00:14:12,610 S2: so these are massive changes. Um, and, you know, no 242 00:14:12,929 --> 00:14:15,410 S2: part of American life is untouched by them. 243 00:14:15,450 --> 00:14:18,050 S1: Do you think he still has the support of Americans, 244 00:14:18,050 --> 00:14:20,610 S1: given all these changes? Do people feel like this is 245 00:14:20,610 --> 00:14:23,170 S1: the mandate that they gave him, or are these kind 246 00:14:23,170 --> 00:14:26,330 S1: of critical things that have occurred particularly? I'm thinking of 247 00:14:26,370 --> 00:14:31,090 S1: the shooting of. Renee, goodbye and Ice officer recently. Has 248 00:14:31,090 --> 00:14:33,570 S1: that changed the level of support for Trump? 249 00:14:33,730 --> 00:14:38,010 S2: Well, it's interesting. Trump's level of support generally is has 250 00:14:38,010 --> 00:14:41,530 S2: come down a lot. Um, now, it did not start 251 00:14:41,530 --> 00:14:44,690 S2: from the highest point of, you know, most presidents because 252 00:14:44,690 --> 00:14:46,970 S2: he's a known entity. Right. You're not getting that kind 253 00:14:46,970 --> 00:14:49,890 S2: of honeymoon that a new president, um, would get. He's 254 00:14:49,890 --> 00:14:52,250 S2: back for his second term. So it didn't start that high. 255 00:14:52,410 --> 00:14:54,770 S2: And it's come down a lot. I think his approval 256 00:14:54,770 --> 00:14:57,890 S2: rating in the aggregate polls is about 40% at the moment. 257 00:14:57,890 --> 00:15:02,170 S2: His disapproval rating somewhere between 55 and 60%. So people 258 00:15:02,210 --> 00:15:06,970 S2: are overall not that happy. Um, his approval rating was 259 00:15:06,970 --> 00:15:10,090 S2: higher on the immigration issue. When you kind of ask people, 260 00:15:10,130 --> 00:15:11,970 S2: you know, what kind of job do you think the 261 00:15:11,970 --> 00:15:15,370 S2: president's doing on these issues? But it too has fallen 262 00:15:15,370 --> 00:15:19,730 S2: into negative territory. Uh, and that has correlated basically with 263 00:15:19,730 --> 00:15:22,850 S2: ice kind of moving on from, you know, uh, arresting 264 00:15:22,850 --> 00:15:26,930 S2: the criminals, uh, to, uh, you know, detaining people on 265 00:15:26,930 --> 00:15:30,170 S2: farms and at car washes and, uh, you know, those 266 00:15:30,170 --> 00:15:33,250 S2: sort of everyday people, um, who are not criminals. Um, 267 00:15:33,290 --> 00:15:35,730 S2: people don't really like that. They seem to think that 268 00:15:35,730 --> 00:15:37,890 S2: he's going too far and that ice is going too 269 00:15:37,890 --> 00:15:39,010 S2: far with its methods. 270 00:15:39,010 --> 00:15:41,370 S1: Now, when we talk about the level of support, it 271 00:15:41,370 --> 00:15:43,650 S1: brings me to the great story that you did have 272 00:15:43,850 --> 00:15:48,130 S1: this week, and you mentioned him before, Steve Bannon, MAGA loyalist. 273 00:15:48,130 --> 00:15:51,370 S1: So can you just tell listeners who Steve Bannon is 274 00:15:51,410 --> 00:15:54,650 S1: and the level of influence he still has? 275 00:15:55,170 --> 00:15:59,570 S2: So Steve Bannon, he was a very important white House strategist. 276 00:15:59,610 --> 00:16:02,930 S2: He was Trump's chief strategist in the first term. Um, 277 00:16:02,970 --> 00:16:06,220 S2: he's you know, he would call himself the Ultra-maga, right? Uh, 278 00:16:06,220 --> 00:16:09,300 S2: you know, he's a nationalist. Um, and, you know, and 279 00:16:09,300 --> 00:16:12,020 S2: and very much on that hard right end of the 280 00:16:12,020 --> 00:16:15,740 S2: MAGA kind of cohort. Um, he even went to prison 281 00:16:15,740 --> 00:16:21,540 S2: rather than testify, um, about the January 6th riots before Congress. Um, 282 00:16:21,580 --> 00:16:24,460 S2: he did not get rewarded with another white House job 283 00:16:24,460 --> 00:16:27,540 S2: in this term. So, you know, look, it's a bit 284 00:16:27,580 --> 00:16:31,540 S2: unclear how close he is to Trump these days. Um, 285 00:16:31,580 --> 00:16:34,300 S2: he says he's still, you know, talks with Trump. And 286 00:16:34,300 --> 00:16:37,780 S2: then he, of course, has, um, kind of external influence 287 00:16:37,780 --> 00:16:42,900 S2: in the MAGA ecosystem through his very popular podcast, War Room, 288 00:16:42,940 --> 00:16:45,700 S2: where he sort of, you know, I think his role 289 00:16:45,700 --> 00:16:49,420 S2: is to kind of shape the MAGA discourse. Right. And 290 00:16:49,420 --> 00:16:54,780 S2: to extend the Overton Window of what's acceptable. Um, and, 291 00:16:54,820 --> 00:16:57,620 S2: you know, arguably, he's helped do that over the last, 292 00:16:57,620 --> 00:16:59,700 S2: not just the last year, but the last four years, 293 00:16:59,700 --> 00:17:02,460 S2: where he's been one of those kind of thought leaders 294 00:17:02,460 --> 00:17:05,070 S2: in terms of, you know, when Trump gets back in, 295 00:17:05,070 --> 00:17:07,190 S2: what do we want to do? We want to flood 296 00:17:07,190 --> 00:17:09,390 S2: the zone. We want to totally change the joint. And 297 00:17:09,390 --> 00:17:12,149 S2: you're seeing part of his agenda now, you know, being 298 00:17:12,150 --> 00:17:15,310 S2: enacted by the president. So, you know, yes. Um, he's 299 00:17:15,310 --> 00:17:18,390 S2: not in the inner circle anymore, but he retains relevance. 300 00:17:18,750 --> 00:17:21,310 S1: And he told you, um, well, he's told you something 301 00:17:21,350 --> 00:17:24,950 S1: kind of quite significant in your interview with him. What 302 00:17:24,950 --> 00:17:26,510 S1: did he say, Michael? 303 00:17:26,869 --> 00:17:30,390 S2: Look, he and he's been banging this drum for a while, uh, 304 00:17:30,390 --> 00:17:33,150 S2: on his podcast that, you know, Donald Trump is going 305 00:17:33,150 --> 00:17:36,510 S2: to run again in 2028. And that banner, you know, 306 00:17:36,550 --> 00:17:39,669 S2: he says he's Bannon. He's working on a legal strategy. 307 00:17:39,710 --> 00:17:42,669 S2: He's doing a book with Alan Dershowitz, which apparently is 308 00:17:42,670 --> 00:17:45,910 S2: going to lay out how legally this could be possible, um, that, 309 00:17:45,950 --> 00:17:48,430 S2: you know, they think they can, to quote Bannon, drive 310 00:17:48,430 --> 00:17:52,070 S2: a mack truck through the 22nd amendment of the Constitution, 311 00:17:52,070 --> 00:17:55,030 S2: which is the bit that prevents someone being elected president 312 00:17:55,030 --> 00:17:58,270 S2: more than twice. Uh, and so when you have him 313 00:17:58,270 --> 00:18:00,790 S2: saying that and apparently making moves to kind of come 314 00:18:00,790 --> 00:18:05,240 S2: up with a legal justification, uh, that's significant. and you know, 315 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:07,330 S2: who knows what's going to happen in the next 2 316 00:18:07,330 --> 00:18:11,639 S2: or 3 years? Uh, so at the same time, Trump 317 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,240 S2: has kind of played it down more recently. Um, you know, 318 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,159 S2: earlier on he was saying, yeah, I've got people looking at, 319 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,479 S2: you know, how we might do it. He's more lately 320 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,200 S2: been saying, oh, I think the Constitution is pretty clear. 321 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,760 S2: I can't do it, which is a shame. Um, I 322 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:31,280 S2: think he likes to kind of troll a bit. Trump. Um, but, 323 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:35,520 S2: you know, we thought Greenland might have been trolling, uh, 324 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,200 S2: early last year, and now it's kind of become real. 325 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,120 S2: So you just never know with these things. And that's 326 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:44,160 S2: why I think it's important to keep an eye on it. 327 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,880 S1: Well, if the first is anything to go by, then 328 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,600 S1: a lot could change and a lot could happen between 329 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:58,159 S1: now and 2028. So thank you, Michael, for joining us 330 00:18:58,200 --> 00:18:59,200 S1: on the Morning Edition. 331 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:00,879 S2: Not a problem. Thank you. 332 00:19:05,570 --> 00:19:08,610 S1: In other news today, senior politicians will be stripped of 333 00:19:08,650 --> 00:19:12,050 S1: their uncapped entitlements to fly their partners and children around 334 00:19:12,090 --> 00:19:15,850 S1: Australia as the government moves to implement recommendations from an 335 00:19:15,850 --> 00:19:20,770 S1: independent tribunal on expenses. Also leading our websites today is 336 00:19:20,770 --> 00:19:23,649 S1: the result of a late night vote in federal parliament 337 00:19:23,650 --> 00:19:27,410 S1: on tougher gun control laws and the government's hate crimes bill. 338 00:19:28,290 --> 00:19:31,850 S1: And there's been four shark attacks within 48 hours in 339 00:19:31,850 --> 00:19:35,290 S1: New South Wales, after heavy rainfall flushed bull sharks from 340 00:19:35,290 --> 00:19:39,410 S1: rivers and estuaries into harbours and beaches. You can read 341 00:19:39,410 --> 00:19:45,570 S1: these stories and more on our websites theage.com.au or smh.com.au. 342 00:19:47,010 --> 00:19:51,210 S1: Today's episode was produced by Josh towers, and our podcasts 343 00:19:51,210 --> 00:19:54,930 S1: are overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you 344 00:19:54,930 --> 00:19:57,690 S1: like our show, follow the Morning Edition and leave a 345 00:19:57,690 --> 00:20:01,490 S1: review for us on Apple or Spotify. I'm Tammy Mills, 346 00:20:01,490 --> 00:20:02,530 S1: thanks for listening.