1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,159 S1: But look, when we think of the leaders in this 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,600 S1: country through the generations, we also think of their spouses 3 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:09,799 S1: who in many cases have been forced to assume a 4 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:13,080 S1: public profile, which I suppose many of them never naturally sought. 5 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:15,319 S1: Maybe didn't want, but it comes with the job. I'm 6 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,160 S1: thinking of people like Hazel Hawke, Janette Howard, Margie Abbott, 7 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,120 S1: our current first lady, Jodie Haydon. If we use that 8 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:23,000 S1: term first lady, I know it's American, but you know 9 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:25,919 S1: what I mean. But it'd be wrong to pigeonhole these 10 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,560 S1: people as just the spouse of a leader. Many, of course, 11 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:32,840 S1: are incredibly accomplished in their own right as the marching 12 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:36,120 S1: band goes past. And should Angus Taylor one day become 13 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:38,599 S1: the Prime Minister? Well, my next guest will be no 14 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,440 S1: exception to that. Her name is Louise Clegg, a highly 15 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,960 S1: respected barrister, a writer, a thinker with decades of experience 16 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:49,120 S1: in public law, employment law, appellate advocacy. She's a member 17 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:52,040 S1: of the United States Study Center board of directors. She's 18 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,000 S1: also offered a compelling, strong alternative perspective during The Voice. 19 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:57,360 S1: That's when I first spoke to Louise. I think it 20 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:00,760 S1: was back in 2022 during that campaign. Of course, a 21 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,050 S1: lot of the legal fraternity just tumbled in behind the 22 00:01:03,090 --> 00:01:06,009 S1: yes campaign. Louise popped her head above the parapet and said, 23 00:01:06,010 --> 00:01:07,290 S1: you know what? I don't think it's a good idea. 24 00:01:07,330 --> 00:01:10,130 S1: And this is why, in the end, the public believed 25 00:01:10,130 --> 00:01:12,770 S1: her and not her colleagues. She's, of course, the wife 26 00:01:12,770 --> 00:01:15,650 S1: of Angus Taylor, but she's a mother of their four children. 27 00:01:15,690 --> 00:01:17,770 S1: I'm very pleased to say, among all of that, she's 28 00:01:17,770 --> 00:01:19,810 S1: managed to find time to come on the stage with me. 29 00:01:19,850 --> 00:01:22,490 S1: Nice to see you, Louise. It's lovely to be here, Mike. 30 00:01:22,490 --> 00:01:25,330 S1: Welcome along. I mean, just before we get into, you know, 31 00:01:25,370 --> 00:01:27,530 S1: the usual political stuff. I mean, one of the reasons 32 00:01:27,530 --> 00:01:29,250 S1: we want to have a chat is to get to 33 00:01:29,290 --> 00:01:31,809 S1: know you better. And part of your story is very 34 00:01:31,810 --> 00:01:33,729 S1: much regional. And here we are at the Sydney Royal 35 00:01:33,730 --> 00:01:35,970 S1: Easter Show when the bush comes to the city and 36 00:01:36,130 --> 00:01:37,610 S1: all the things that you would have known as a 37 00:01:37,610 --> 00:01:40,090 S1: child are now on display for everyone in the city 38 00:01:40,090 --> 00:01:41,410 S1: to take advantage of. 39 00:01:41,770 --> 00:01:45,650 S2: Yeah, that's a great summary of what's going on here. Um, look, 40 00:01:45,690 --> 00:01:51,050 S2: I am, as I said to Janet Albrechtsen last week, 41 00:01:51,050 --> 00:01:54,010 S2: I'm a hard core country girl. I grew up in, um, 42 00:01:54,210 --> 00:01:57,530 S2: central Western New South Wales. And I think I was 43 00:01:57,530 --> 00:02:00,370 S2: probably going to country shows before I can even remember 44 00:02:00,370 --> 00:02:04,740 S2: going to country shows. Yeah. So, um, and of course, um, 45 00:02:04,740 --> 00:02:07,300 S2: I had had a childhood, a typical rural childhood. I 46 00:02:07,300 --> 00:02:11,900 S2: rode ponies, I went to shows and gymkhanas and competed. Um, 47 00:02:11,900 --> 00:02:14,780 S2: so country shows have been sort of part of my 48 00:02:14,780 --> 00:02:18,179 S2: existence since I was little. Um, I also then was 49 00:02:18,180 --> 00:02:22,100 S2: very lucky to attend Hurlstone Agricultural High School. I'll give 50 00:02:22,100 --> 00:02:25,220 S2: Hurlstone a plug here. Um, and that's in south western Sydney. 51 00:02:25,260 --> 00:02:26,660 S1: A former labor leader went there didn't he? 52 00:02:26,700 --> 00:02:27,220 S2: He did. 53 00:02:27,820 --> 00:02:28,859 S1: Same year, different year. 54 00:02:29,100 --> 00:02:30,619 S2: Uh, no, he was a bit ahead of me. 55 00:02:30,660 --> 00:02:31,180 S1: Oh, good. 56 00:02:31,340 --> 00:02:35,700 S2: Um, and and I mean, they were great days, but 57 00:02:35,740 --> 00:02:38,820 S2: at Hurlstone in those days, there was a very strong 58 00:02:38,820 --> 00:02:41,580 S2: rural youth group. And I was part of that group. 59 00:02:41,580 --> 00:02:44,500 S2: And we showed the dairy cows at Moorpark at the 60 00:02:44,500 --> 00:02:45,179 S2: Easter show when. 61 00:02:45,220 --> 00:02:45,660 S1: The old place. 62 00:02:45,700 --> 00:02:48,740 S2: At the old place. Yeah. Um, and so I have 63 00:02:48,740 --> 00:02:51,339 S2: fond memories of that. And then of course, I, I'm 64 00:02:51,340 --> 00:02:55,540 S2: married to Angus and um, when he entered the federal 65 00:02:55,540 --> 00:03:01,100 S2: parliament 12 years ago now, um, he was and still 66 00:03:01,100 --> 00:03:05,109 S2: is the member for Hume, but the old Hume. And 67 00:03:05,150 --> 00:03:07,630 S2: by that I mean there's a new Hume, or there 68 00:03:07,630 --> 00:03:10,550 S2: have been two new Hume's. Because Hume has changed, the 69 00:03:10,550 --> 00:03:11,669 S2: Electoral Commission has moved. 70 00:03:11,669 --> 00:03:12,990 S1: Boundaries have shifted, don't they? 71 00:03:13,030 --> 00:03:16,070 S2: Yeah, but the original Hume, not so many years ago 72 00:03:16,110 --> 00:03:20,470 S2: was a very, very rural electorate, predominantly rural. And so again, 73 00:03:20,510 --> 00:03:24,310 S2: there were villages and towns. I think Angus had around 74 00:03:24,310 --> 00:03:29,790 S2: about 15 country shows to attend when the old Hume 75 00:03:29,790 --> 00:03:31,510 S2: was in place. And so he couldn't go to every 76 00:03:31,510 --> 00:03:34,390 S2: single one but a big part of his political life, 77 00:03:34,389 --> 00:03:39,550 S2: and therefore mine has been attending rural shows, soaking it 78 00:03:39,550 --> 00:03:42,310 S2: all up, taking part in it and their magic, their 79 00:03:42,310 --> 00:03:43,430 S2: magic community events. 80 00:03:43,470 --> 00:03:45,070 S1: So this is a this is a natural sort of 81 00:03:45,110 --> 00:03:48,430 S1: environment for you, of course. Um, what I mean, you know, 82 00:03:48,430 --> 00:03:51,390 S1: I was reading Janet's piece, which I thought was fantastic 83 00:03:51,670 --> 00:03:54,350 S1: and she describes Angus. She said awarded the University of 84 00:03:54,350 --> 00:03:56,870 S1: Sydney Medal in Economics, went to the University of Oxford 85 00:03:56,870 --> 00:03:59,630 S1: as a Rhodes Scholar. He did the postgraduate degree in economics. 86 00:03:59,630 --> 00:04:03,310 S1: Highly successful businessman, the youngest person globally to be appointed 87 00:04:03,310 --> 00:04:06,350 S1: partner at McKinsey's. I mean, that's all pretty impressive. But 88 00:04:06,350 --> 00:04:08,430 S1: then you read your CV and I think you outdo him. 89 00:04:08,430 --> 00:04:10,790 S1: So it's not a bad power couple, is it? 90 00:04:10,830 --> 00:04:16,390 S2: I definitely don't outdo him, Michael. No I don't. Um. No, no, no. Look, 91 00:04:16,550 --> 00:04:19,670 S2: Angus has a, you know, terrific background, and he's had 92 00:04:19,710 --> 00:04:25,630 S2: a pretty broad life, actually. He he, um, you know, he, he, 93 00:04:25,630 --> 00:04:28,989 S2: like me, is a hardcore country boy at heart. Um, 94 00:04:29,110 --> 00:04:32,470 S2: he grew up literally on the back of a horse. Um, 95 00:04:32,950 --> 00:04:36,390 S2: they in those days down on the great Dividing Range 96 00:04:36,390 --> 00:04:38,750 S2: where his family property is. They did all of their 97 00:04:38,750 --> 00:04:42,750 S2: stock work on horseback. And so when I first met 98 00:04:42,750 --> 00:04:44,830 S2: him at the age of 20 and was going down 99 00:04:44,830 --> 00:04:47,750 S2: to Nimmitabel um, near Cooma, that's. 100 00:04:47,750 --> 00:04:47,990 S1: Where he. 101 00:04:47,990 --> 00:04:50,950 S2: Grew up, where he grew up. Um, you know, we, 102 00:04:50,950 --> 00:04:53,990 S2: we on university holidays, we, you know, you'd jump up, 103 00:04:54,029 --> 00:04:56,910 S2: get up in the morning, have your breakfast and jump 104 00:04:56,910 --> 00:04:58,470 S2: on a horse and go out and help with the 105 00:04:58,470 --> 00:05:01,630 S2: mustering or get into the stockyards. And that's the sort 106 00:05:01,630 --> 00:05:03,640 S2: of youth that he grew up with. I mean, he 107 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,640 S2: used to ride to Pony Club to like me. Um, 108 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,520 S2: their home was not that far from the small country 109 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,400 S2: town Nimmitabel. And they would ride through paddocks and through 110 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,440 S2: a neighbor's property to get to pony club. Um, so. 111 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:16,760 S1: From snowy river stuff. 112 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:19,480 S2: Well, I mean, when I did meet him at university, 113 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,640 S2: I my, my original attraction was not all of these 114 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:26,440 S2: things that he has done since actually, um, it was 115 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:28,839 S2: clear that he was very bright and very hard worker, 116 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,039 S2: but it was the country boy that I fell in 117 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,120 S2: love with. Actually, um, I. 118 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,120 S1: Was going to ask, where did you meet? Both from 119 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:37,400 S1: the rural areas, but different parts of New South Wales. 120 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,000 S1: So university was it that it all came together? 121 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,000 S2: Well, he, I was from central western New South Wales, 122 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:45,880 S2: about six, seven hours drive from Sydney. Then the roads 123 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:47,360 S2: have improved since then. So it's. 124 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:48,520 S1: About 6.5 hours now. 125 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,440 S2: Isn't it? Yeah, it's about right. Well, if you have 126 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:51,839 S2: a stopover. 127 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:53,800 S1: You can't get through the Victoria Pass. That's another matter. 128 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,120 S2: Oh, that is another matter. Yes. Um. And then Angus 129 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:01,520 S2: was from about the same distance down due south. So 130 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,450 S2: um south of Cooma, South east of Cooma, and it's 131 00:06:05,490 --> 00:06:07,450 S2: actually pretty remote down there. I mean, it's much closer 132 00:06:07,450 --> 00:06:11,650 S2: to Canberra and I think therefore not quite as truly 133 00:06:11,650 --> 00:06:14,730 S2: remote as the place that I grew up. Um, just 134 00:06:14,730 --> 00:06:20,210 S2: in terms of accessibility, um, to, uh, everything that, um, 135 00:06:20,210 --> 00:06:24,250 S2: most people sort of take for granted. Yeah. But um, 136 00:06:24,290 --> 00:06:27,490 S2: he was, I mean, as I told Janet, I took 137 00:06:27,490 --> 00:06:31,890 S2: one look at him and he was just all country. And, um, 138 00:06:32,170 --> 00:06:33,010 S2: so we are, we are. 139 00:06:33,050 --> 00:06:35,330 S1: Good looking rooster. I mean, let's be honest, you know, 140 00:06:35,370 --> 00:06:36,690 S1: he's a good looking man. 141 00:06:36,850 --> 00:06:39,730 S2: Yes. No. I'm punching. I'm. I'm punching above my weight. 142 00:06:39,770 --> 00:06:41,970 S1: I'm not going to. Oh, no, I'm not saying that. 143 00:06:42,010 --> 00:06:44,050 S1: Far from it. But you know, I mean there's obviously 144 00:06:44,050 --> 00:06:47,650 S1: that that attraction as well. Um now when he said 145 00:06:47,690 --> 00:06:49,849 S1: you know I think I'm going to go into politics here, 146 00:06:49,850 --> 00:06:51,530 S1: I'm going to stand as the Liberal MP and I'll 147 00:06:51,529 --> 00:06:54,169 S1: get preselection. And what was your reaction. Because you know 148 00:06:54,210 --> 00:06:56,250 S1: a lot of people think well we're doing okay. You 149 00:06:56,250 --> 00:06:58,650 S1: know financially we're doing pretty well. Angus you know you've 150 00:06:58,650 --> 00:07:01,690 S1: done well in the economics front. Why go into that 151 00:07:01,690 --> 00:07:03,890 S1: sort of hurly burly world where the kids will get 152 00:07:04,020 --> 00:07:06,340 S1: maybe dragged into it. There'll be articles written about us. 153 00:07:06,380 --> 00:07:09,260 S1: We're exposed beyond what we would be in the private sector. 154 00:07:09,300 --> 00:07:13,300 S1: Why do it? What was your reaction when he wanted 155 00:07:13,300 --> 00:07:14,020 S1: to do that? 156 00:07:14,060 --> 00:07:18,580 S2: Well, look, he'd always talked about it but had never 157 00:07:18,580 --> 00:07:22,940 S2: been a, you know, an overwhelmingly something where he felt, 158 00:07:22,980 --> 00:07:27,300 S2: you know, compelled or, you know, called to it. Yeah. No. 159 00:07:27,740 --> 00:07:31,260 S2: Um but I mean, I think he felt that he 160 00:07:31,260 --> 00:07:36,300 S2: had been, whilst he'd worked very hard and made his 161 00:07:36,300 --> 00:07:40,900 S2: own success out of his, um, his own personal, um, 162 00:07:41,140 --> 00:07:45,620 S2: work ethic and capacity. He also came from a very 163 00:07:45,620 --> 00:07:50,380 S2: old fashioned country family who was, had a history of service. His, um, 164 00:07:50,620 --> 00:07:54,820 S2: his grandfather was William Hudson who ran the Snowy Mountains scheme. Um, 165 00:07:54,940 --> 00:08:01,620 S2: his father was a rural politician who was, um, involved 166 00:08:01,620 --> 00:08:03,900 S2: with the NFF in its very early days and then 167 00:08:03,900 --> 00:08:05,950 S2: went on to become the president of the New South 168 00:08:05,950 --> 00:08:09,430 S2: Wales Farmers. A lot of your listeners would know of 169 00:08:09,430 --> 00:08:13,309 S2: Peter Taylor, his father. Yes. Um, and then but also 170 00:08:13,310 --> 00:08:16,310 S2: his mother, who very sadly died of breast cancer when 171 00:08:16,310 --> 00:08:19,550 S2: she was 47. I mean, she just, she did lots 172 00:08:19,550 --> 00:08:22,030 S2: of things in the local community, but played the organ 173 00:08:22,030 --> 00:08:24,150 S2: in the local church and things like that. So he 174 00:08:24,150 --> 00:08:27,470 S2: came from a family of service, and we'd both been 175 00:08:27,670 --> 00:08:31,230 S2: lucky enough to have good careers in the city, but 176 00:08:31,230 --> 00:08:35,030 S2: our hearts were in the country and we'd always plan 177 00:08:35,030 --> 00:08:37,910 S2: to get back sooner rather than later. And I think 178 00:08:38,750 --> 00:08:40,790 S2: he got to the point where we got to the 179 00:08:40,790 --> 00:08:44,310 S2: point really where we thought, well, this is a sliding 180 00:08:44,309 --> 00:08:47,469 S2: door moment. You can we can take our lives in 181 00:08:47,470 --> 00:08:52,270 S2: a different direction and do politics, or we can keep 182 00:08:52,270 --> 00:08:55,350 S2: on marching on in the city and try and acquire 183 00:08:55,350 --> 00:08:58,309 S2: more wealth and sort of do what all our friends 184 00:08:58,309 --> 00:09:00,310 S2: in the city were doing. And we just decided to 185 00:09:00,710 --> 00:09:04,309 S2: take the road less travelled. I suppose. 186 00:09:04,350 --> 00:09:04,990 S1: It could be a bumpy. 187 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:08,440 S2: Ride. And personally, I mean, a lot of people did 188 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:10,760 S2: say to me, what you've just said is, what are 189 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,560 S2: you doing? Are you mad? Um, why why would you 190 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,120 S2: even think about this? I mean, many, many people said 191 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:16,640 S2: that because. 192 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,360 S1: You thrust yourself, you know, you become. It's a bit 193 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:21,160 S1: of a spectator sport in some respects. You know, you 194 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,360 S1: put your hand up to serve in politics. Well, it's 195 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:24,960 S1: fair game then, you know. I mean, the media come 196 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:27,480 S1: after you and by extension they can go after the family. 197 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:29,480 S1: It's a courageous thing to do. 198 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:31,240 S2: They do. And they have. I mean, I was a 199 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:34,319 S2: bit naive, to be honest. Um, Angus did tell me 200 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:36,040 S2: they'd come after him and I said, why would they 201 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:38,880 S2: come after you? You're you know, everyone will love you. 202 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,920 S2: I mean, I didn't I, I guess I had a 203 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:49,480 S2: fairly closeted upbringing and, um, and as a lawyer, I think, um, 204 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:54,200 S2: I was less prepared than him for the battering. I mean, 205 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,600 S2: he was involved in business in more sort of hardcore 206 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,079 S2: real things than I had. And so I wasn't quite 207 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,679 S2: as prepared for it as he was. So that's all 208 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:06,890 S2: been a bit of an adjustment for me, but I 209 00:10:06,890 --> 00:10:09,050 S2: must say 12 years down the track I am sort. 210 00:10:09,050 --> 00:10:09,410 S1: Of get used. 211 00:10:09,410 --> 00:10:09,650 S2: To it. 212 00:10:09,690 --> 00:10:10,610 S1: I've broadened and. 213 00:10:10,650 --> 00:10:12,890 S2: Yeah, and now I do see some of the attacks 214 00:10:12,890 --> 00:10:14,370 S2: as a badge of honor, to be honest. 215 00:10:14,410 --> 00:10:16,610 S1: Now, if they're not talking about you, then they're talking 216 00:10:16,610 --> 00:10:18,569 S1: about someone else. So, you know, I suppose when you're 217 00:10:18,570 --> 00:10:21,170 S1: trying to become the leadership, then it's better if they 218 00:10:21,170 --> 00:10:24,170 S1: are talking. Uh, I mean, when we first spoke, it 219 00:10:24,170 --> 00:10:26,929 S1: was probably 3 or 4 years ago now. The voice 220 00:10:26,929 --> 00:10:29,930 S1: campaign was ratcheting up and you were one of the 221 00:10:30,050 --> 00:10:33,370 S1: the only legal minds of any substance to go and say, 222 00:10:33,370 --> 00:10:35,490 S1: you know what, I'm not sure this is in the 223 00:10:35,490 --> 00:10:38,290 S1: nation's best interest. I mean, all the different societies tumbled 224 00:10:38,290 --> 00:10:40,809 S1: in behind it. And we had the corporate world say, oh, 225 00:10:40,850 --> 00:10:42,970 S1: it's wonderful, we should do this. I mean, there's no 226 00:10:42,970 --> 00:10:45,170 S1: need for a no case. It's a fait accompli. And 227 00:10:45,170 --> 00:10:48,130 S1: the early polls suggested it was going to be a walkover. 228 00:10:48,410 --> 00:10:50,849 S1: In the end, it was a walkover for the no case. 229 00:10:50,850 --> 00:10:52,970 S1: And you were one of those voices that were, I think, 230 00:10:52,970 --> 00:10:56,370 S1: courageous to put your name out there, not just as 231 00:10:56,410 --> 00:10:59,250 S1: Louise Clegg, but also as the wife of a Liberal MP. 232 00:10:59,450 --> 00:11:00,770 S1: And so, you know, I don't think this is a 233 00:11:00,770 --> 00:11:02,450 S1: good idea. I think you did that before the Liberal 234 00:11:02,450 --> 00:11:06,380 S1: Party even took a position. So, uh, what what, uh, 235 00:11:06,380 --> 00:11:10,380 S1: what possessed you? But what what what made you decide? 236 00:11:10,420 --> 00:11:11,780 S1: You know what? I'm going to take a stand on 237 00:11:11,780 --> 00:11:12,220 S1: this one. 238 00:11:12,940 --> 00:11:17,620 S2: Well, look, I had been following the debate about recognition 239 00:11:17,620 --> 00:11:21,780 S2: of indigenous people in the Constitution for a long time. Um, 240 00:11:21,980 --> 00:11:25,620 S2: I mean, constitutional law is one of my interests. I 241 00:11:25,660 --> 00:11:31,220 S2: had taught constitutional law, and so and I had a 242 00:11:31,540 --> 00:11:34,980 S2: I had a pretty well formed view about, um, what 243 00:11:34,980 --> 00:11:42,620 S2: was likely possible, desirable, um, for our Constitution, the right balance, 244 00:11:42,620 --> 00:11:45,380 S2: how we would recognise indigenous people in a way that 245 00:11:45,740 --> 00:11:49,580 S2: didn't harm the Constitution and harm our society. And so 246 00:11:49,940 --> 00:11:52,900 S2: I was actually very friendly with some of the people, 247 00:11:52,940 --> 00:11:57,260 S2: both the academics and, um, and some others who were 248 00:11:57,380 --> 00:12:00,100 S2: very involved in it and pushing it even from the 249 00:12:00,100 --> 00:12:03,980 S2: conservative side. And I'd been talking to them for years 250 00:12:03,980 --> 00:12:06,859 S2: and reading the reports and the papers and the and enquiries, 251 00:12:06,860 --> 00:12:10,900 S2: and so I was expecting something that was more sensible, 252 00:12:10,900 --> 00:12:15,220 S2: more minimalist, and I was, I felt quite certain that 253 00:12:15,620 --> 00:12:19,819 S2: the Labour Government would, would be sensible enough to remember 254 00:12:19,820 --> 00:12:24,100 S2: past referenda where um arguments had been, had been put 255 00:12:24,100 --> 00:12:26,819 S2: up and then they'd failed because once put under scrutiny 256 00:12:26,860 --> 00:12:29,660 S2: they would, they just fell to pieces. Um we don't 257 00:12:29,660 --> 00:12:33,099 S2: have a, you know, a long tradition of successful referenda 258 00:12:33,100 --> 00:12:36,220 S2: in this country. So it was the model that triggered me. 259 00:12:36,260 --> 00:12:39,500 S2: It wasn't the fact of recognition itself, but the model 260 00:12:39,500 --> 00:12:41,340 S2: that they came up with. And we don't want a 261 00:12:41,340 --> 00:12:43,460 S2: tutorial on that now. But the model they came up 262 00:12:43,460 --> 00:12:47,820 S2: with was, to me, breathtakingly radical with a whole new 263 00:12:47,820 --> 00:12:52,140 S2: chapter in the Constitution. And it wasn't just the tech, 264 00:12:52,179 --> 00:12:55,140 S2: it wasn't that it was technical. The technical problems I 265 00:12:55,140 --> 00:12:57,260 S2: had with it, it was I felt the damage it 266 00:12:57,260 --> 00:13:01,179 S2: would do on the ground, particularly in rural communities where 267 00:13:01,220 --> 00:13:06,340 S2: Aboriginal people lived and were thriving and integrated. So, I mean, 268 00:13:06,380 --> 00:13:12,069 S2: in rural communities, there's a spectrum of need and wealth. And, 269 00:13:12,230 --> 00:13:16,150 S2: you know, we we're all together sort of seeing much 270 00:13:16,150 --> 00:13:19,790 S2: more than perhaps some people in more rarefied communities in 271 00:13:19,790 --> 00:13:23,150 S2: the city. And so, of course, there are needy indigenous 272 00:13:23,190 --> 00:13:26,310 S2: people in rural communities and some much more than others. 273 00:13:26,309 --> 00:13:31,030 S2: But then there are needy non-Indigenous people, too. And so 274 00:13:31,030 --> 00:13:35,550 S2: this idea that indigenous people only get a special say 275 00:13:35,590 --> 00:13:40,429 S2: over not just issues that are purely indigenous, but that 276 00:13:40,429 --> 00:13:43,510 S2: affect all of us, I felt in the long run, 277 00:13:43,510 --> 00:13:47,790 S2: politically would have a very detrimental effect on the nation 278 00:13:47,790 --> 00:13:50,670 S2: and on our cohesion. And just to finish that, I 279 00:13:50,670 --> 00:13:53,430 S2: know you want to move on, I can tell. I really, 280 00:13:53,429 --> 00:13:56,309 S2: I really felt that it was we would end up 281 00:13:56,309 --> 00:13:59,670 S2: throwing away the gains that we have made slow as 282 00:13:59,670 --> 00:14:02,550 S2: they have been over the last, say, 30 years. And 283 00:14:02,550 --> 00:14:04,390 S2: so I feel very strongly about it. 284 00:14:04,990 --> 00:14:06,590 S1: Well, you were right to do. And in the end, 285 00:14:06,630 --> 00:14:10,000 S1: as I said, the public came on board. Just finally, 286 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:12,760 S1: I think people listening now will be getting a very 287 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:18,000 S1: good sense, Louise, that you are incredibly accomplished. So, you know, 288 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,240 S1: let's say Angus keeps going up the greasy pole. Is 289 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,280 S1: there potentially Louise Clegg somewhere in the world of politics 290 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:28,000 S1: or there's no interest to you? You know, Joe and 291 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,720 S1: Lady Flow of Goulburn sort of situation maybe, or, uh. 292 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,080 S2: Well thank you. Those are kind words. 293 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,760 S1: But I mean, I'm sure your pumpkin scones are extraordinary, 294 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:37,840 S1: you know, but, uh. 295 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,480 S2: Well, no, I've never made pumpkin scones, but I do 296 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,240 S2: make very mean chicken sandwiches. I have to say, I'm 297 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:47,200 S2: famous for those locally. Um, I no, no, no, I 298 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,440 S2: don't think so. I mean, occasionally people say that sort 299 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:51,840 S2: of thing to me. And my retort is always that 300 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:55,760 S2: our children will divorce us if another if another parent 301 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:57,280 S2: went into politics. Yeah, I. 302 00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:57,480 S1: Think. 303 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,760 S2: One is enough. So, um, no, that's not that's not 304 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:02,160 S2: on the horizon. 305 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:04,320 S1: Fair enough. Nice to meet you. Thank you for coming in. 306 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:05,600 S1: Enjoy the rest of your day at the show. 307 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:07,440 S2: It's a great pleasure. Thank you for having me, Michael. 308 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:08,640 S1: My pleasure, Louise Clegg.