WEBVTT - The accused killer speaks 0:00:02.240 --> 0:00:03.520 Nine podcasts. 0:00:04.320 --> 0:00:07.600 The accused killer, Aaron Patterson has been called to give evidence. 0:00:07.720 --> 0:00:10.360 She appeared to choke back tears as she described the 0:00:10.360 --> 0:00:13.840 traumatic birth of her first child, telling the jury how 0:00:13.880 --> 0:00:17.200 her mother in law, Gail Patterson, offered help and support 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:19.840 when she was out of her depth. She also gave 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:23.360 evidence on how she tried to convert her now estranged husband, 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:27.960 hoping he'd become an atheist, but instead she became a Christian. 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:32.960 Victoria's Mushroom Mystery, the mushroom lunch that claimed three lives 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:36.080 an Australian family's meal is now the center of a 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:40.600 homicide investigation. For bizarre tragedy now grabbing global headlines, Aaron 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:44.320 Patterson's alleged victims died after eating a family lunch she'd 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:46.840 serve them at her home. I cannot think of another 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:52.320 investigation that has generated this level of media and public interest. 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:54.840 Four of the guests of that lunch were much loved 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:56.120 members of this church. 0:00:56.520 --> 0:00:58.160 Only one will ever return. 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:03.520 People are feeling very heavy with having lost such wonderful people. 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:07.160 Today, Aaron Patterson remained here inside her home. 0:01:07.440 --> 0:01:09.800 She's continued to plead her innocence. 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:14.720 In a court room in Country Victoria, Aaron Patterson is 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:18.200 on trial accused of using death cat mushrooms to kill 0:01:18.360 --> 0:01:21.199 She's pleaded not guilty to murdering three of her former 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:23.560 in laws and attempting to kill a fourth. 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:24.840 The town's church pastor. 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:28.040 It's up to the jurors to decide what happened when 0:01:28.040 --> 0:01:31.959 Patterson's loved ones sat down to eat penny. 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:36.040 After twenty four days, it's finally happened. The accused killer herself, 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:38.479 Aaron Patterson, has taken to the witness box to give 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:44.160 evidence for the first time. We heard shortli after three 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:47.640 o'clock today, Crown prosecutor got up and said to the jury, 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:51.480 the Crown closes its case. Within a second, Colin Mandy, 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:53.840 s c defense barrister, rose to his feet and said, 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:57.720 I call Aaron Patterson. There was silence in the room. 0:01:57.720 --> 0:02:00.200 You could have heard a pin drop. There was her 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:03.160 heads turning around and looking around to see what anybody 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:06.240 else was thinking, but essentially there was nothing. The jury 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:08.320 were given a break and when they returned to the 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:10.440 court room, Aaron Patterson was in the witness box. 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:12.720 Yeah, and that was It wasn't at Aaron. We heard 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:15.600 Colin Mandy say, the defense will be calling the accused 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:18.280 as a witness, and that was when the judge said, well, 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:20.080 now seems like a good time to have a break. 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:22.640 So there was this moment, as you said, where there 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:24.959 was a sort of a feeling in the courtroom that 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:27.839 everyone was ready for this to begin. But we came 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:29.880 back a little while later, and when the jury returned 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:32.440 to the room, Aaron Patterson herself, she was at the 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:35.080 witness box area of the court directly across from that 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:38.760 jury box. She was wearing a Paisley style patterned top, 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:41.720 sort of a Maroney brown top with that pattern, shut 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:44.040 her hair down. It's quite long, sort of chest length, 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:47.480 and she gave an affirmation as to swearing to tell 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:49.919 the truth in her evidence, whereas you can also take 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:51.920 an oath on the Bible. But she took this affirmation 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:53.360 and her evidence began. 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:56.000 Yeah, I could see her shaking her head back and 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:59.680 forward as she was reading out that affirmation. When it 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:02.040 got to the point where she said, I tell the 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:04.440 truth and nothing but the truth, and she shook her 0:03:04.440 --> 0:03:07.160 head as to indicate, yes, I will tell the truth. 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:10.600 All the jurors sitting on the opposite side of the courtroom, 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:12.680 we're looking at her and Colin Mandy was in the 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:15.760 middle of them, turning to his left to face his client, 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:19.000 and he really started his questioning today painting a picture 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:22.160 of what Aaron Patterson's life was like in twenty twenty three. 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:25.720 She was asked a few details about her family life. 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:28.600 For example, Penny, she talked about the fact that her 0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:31.320 two children had just started a new school, she was 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:34.920 having self esteem issues, and was also talking about some 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:37.160 planned weight loss surgery, so she was explaining there was 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:38.120 a few things going on. 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:39.640 So she was first sort of taken through. 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:43.240 I think Colin Mandy described them as at least being 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:45.640 the better parts of her life at that time. She 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:48.880 said she had been accepted into doing a university degree 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:51.520 a Bachelor of Nursing in Midwiffrey at the start of 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:53.240 that year of twenty twenty three, but she said that 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:56.080 she'd put that on hold, essentially deferred it because her 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:58.840 daughter needed a little bit of extra help and that time, 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:01.200 as well as the fact that kids had changed schools 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:04.120 at that time of middle twenty twenty three, and she 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:06.680 said that come the middle of that year that everything 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:08.600 was sort of going all right, so she had thought 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:11.280 that she probably would go and do this degree. But 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:13.800 it was then that Colin Mandy took her through what 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:16.520 he sort of said were some of the less positive 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:19.120 elements of her life at that point, and she was 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:22.000 taken through the situation with her children at that time too. 0:04:22.080 --> 0:04:25.200 She said that the daughter was spending time with her 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:28.279 estrange husband Simon fairly regularly, but that her son was 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:30.520 only really seeing him kind of at youth group. 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:32.039 And at church at that particular time. 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:35.960 She was also asked questions about her relationship with her 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:38.599 in laws Don and Gail Pattison at that time, and 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:41.920 she was explaining that she felt from early twenty twenty 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:44.279 three that was a bit of a separation was forming. 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:47.159 Perhaps she wasn't being invited to as many events, and 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:50.159 she believed that at that time Simon Patterson perhaps was 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:52.560 having something to do with that and didn't want her 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:56.640 included in as many events. And then things changed a 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:58.520 little bit, Penny, and we went into a timeline. 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:00.960 Yeah, So before we get to that timeline, let's hear 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:04.200 a little bit about what Aaron Patterson spoke about regarding 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:07.920 particularly the family relationship and dynamic at this time of 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:10.839 July twenty twenty three, as well as how she was 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:15.080 physically and mentally feeling about herself. This is Colin Mandy 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:18.560 speaking with his client Aaron Patterson. It's voiced by actors. 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:21.320 Were there parts of your life that weren't so good 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:23.560 in July of twenty twenty three? 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:26.919 Yeah, there was. I'd felt for some months that my 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:31.120 relationship with the wider Patterson family, and particularly Don and Gale, 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:34.360 had perhaps a bit more distance or space between us. 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:38.200 We saw each other less. I mean, partly it's a 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:41.400 consequence of I no longer lived in the same town 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:44.720 as Don and Gale. But I'd begun to have concerns 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:47.080 that Simon was not wanting me to be involved too 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:50.360 much with the family anymore. Perhaps I wasn't being invited 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:51.480 to so many things. 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:56.880 And how was your relationship with Simon in July of 0:05:56.920 --> 0:05:57.760 twenty twenty three? 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:02.000 It was functional. From the start of the year to July. 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:07.520 We mainly just related on logistical things like church, the streaming, 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:10.920 the kids, but we didn't relate on friend things banter 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:13.520 like we used to. That changed at the start of 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:13.920 the year. 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:16.799 All right, We'll get back to that in due course. 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:21.960 How in July of twenty twenty three did you feel 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:24.800 about yourself physically not good. 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:28.599 Why I'd been fighting a never ending battle of low 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:31.920 self esteem most of my adult life, and the further 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:34.880 inroads I made into being middle aged, the less and 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:38.480 less I felt good about myself. I suppose put on 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:40.919 more weight, could handle exercise less. 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:42.920 Was it principally the weight issue? 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:46.400 Yeah, I mean that was the large that was the 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:47.239 bulk of it. Yeah. 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:51.680 Did you have plans to do anything about to address 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:55.279 the weight issue? I did, And what were those plans. 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:57.800 I was planning to have weight loss surgery, you know, 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:01.160 is a gastric bypass. I was planning to do that. 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:05.279 So that's a snapshot of how your life was in 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:06.599 July of twenty twenty three. 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:09.840 Yep, that's fair, now, Colin Mandy told the jury and 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:11.600 told Aaron Patterson he was now going to take her 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:13.880 back to what he called the beginning, and then he 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:16.960 went through a number of questions, really right back to 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:21.040 when Aaron Patterson had met her now estranged husband Simon. Yeah. 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:23.800 She started the timeline recalling that it was about two 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:26.480 thousand and three that she believed that she first met Simon, 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:28.680 and then later corrected it to two thousand and four. 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:30.880 But at the time they were both working for a 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:33.560 local council in Melbourne, and she was explaining she was 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:36.720 working for the RSPCA, but her role was actually located 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:39.880 inside the council offices. And she first became friends with 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:42.240 Simon and they would largely do things in groups together 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:44.960 and it wasn't until mid two thousand and five that 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:47.800 she recalled that their relationship turned from friendship to a 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:50.960 romantic relationship. And within a couple of years two thousand 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:53.119 and seven, Penny, I think it was February two thousand 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:56.360 and seven, they got engaged. Within months they got married 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:59.280 in June of that year. But there was one particular 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:02.600 event she asked to recall by Colin mandy In and 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:05.400 that was a visit during one of their friendship trips 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:07.600 where they would go camping and alike, where they went 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:11.400 and stayed with Don and Gale Patterson down here in Gippsland. 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:13.720 And Aaron Patterson was explaining at the time she was 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:18.000 an atheist. She knew that her partner, what Simon at 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:21.680 that time, was a Christian and she actually said that 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:24.120 she started off thinking that she was going to convert him, 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:26.840 but actually went the other way. Yeah, So she spoke 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:29.640 in this evidence, particularly about that camping that you mentioned. 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:31.680 She said at this particular time, sort of two thousand 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:34.720 and five time that Simon really, who was also working 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:36.800 at this Monash council, she said sort of in a 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:40.240 traffic engineering capacity, that he was really wanting to focus 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:42.760 on some time away from work and sort of recharging, 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:44.319 and that camping was how he was doing that, and 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:47.240 pretty much that most weekends, especially with this group of friends, 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:49.040 he was wanting to go camping, but she would often 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:49.559 join him. 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:51.040 And she recalled this trip. 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:52.920 Down to car and Burrough where they'd also stayed with 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:54.880 Don and Gale Patterson. She said she thought that was 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:56.880 the first time that she had met them, but it 0:08:56.960 --> 0:08:59.280 was then that her barrister took her. 0:08:59.200 --> 0:09:00.839 Through sort of what her views. 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:03.959 On religion were and particularly this one experience. So let's 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:06.280 hear a little bit more from the evidence as it 0:09:06.320 --> 0:09:07.439 was heard by the jury. 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:09.000 This is no one's real voice. 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:12.040 When you met Simon. What were your views about religion? 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:16.720 I was what you could probably call a fundamentalist atheist, 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:19.079 like I was really very atheist. 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:20.880 And what was Simon's views? 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:22.200 Oh, he was a Christian? 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:25.439 Yeah, And did your attitude towards religion change. 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:26.280 Yeah, it did. 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:28.319 Yeah, and when was that? 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:33.360 So? Through the course of those months December fourth, January 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:39.280 February oh five, we had a lot of conversations about life, religion, politics, 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:41.840 and a lot about religion, and I was trying to 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:45.520 convert him to being an atheist, but things happened in 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:47.360 reverse and I became a Christian. 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:51.120 You said that you first met Don and Gale when 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:53.120 you went on a trip to karen Borough. 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:53.920 Yep. 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:56.559 Did you go to church on that trip to karen Borough? 0:09:56.920 --> 0:09:57.079 Yeah? 0:09:57.080 --> 0:09:59.800 It was the first church service I'd ever been to. 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:01.560 And do you remember when that was? 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:05.800 I think the closest I can say is March or April, 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:07.760 but I don't think it was Easter, so. 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:12.520 Yeah, that's fine much or April. Do you remember the 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:15.400 experience of going to church on that occasion? 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:19.480 Yeah, I do. I remember being really excited about it 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:22.920 because I'd never been to a church service before. I'd 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:24.760 been to my sister's wedding in a church, but that 0:10:24.880 --> 0:10:27.480 was it and I was really looking forward to it. 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:31.240 Which church wasn't It was Current Borough Baptist Church. 0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:34.959 And what do you remember about that church service? 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:38.280 I remember that there was a banner up on the 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:40.920 wall behind where Ian was preaching. 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:43.839 When you say Ian, do you mean Ian Wilkinson. 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:48.240 That's right. He was the pastor and he is giving 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:51.760 a sermon that day. And then there was then a banner. 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:54.520 It could still be there now, but it said it 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:58.600 has on it faith, hope, and love. And Ian gave 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:02.240 a sermon talking about that. There's a passage in the 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:05.319 Bible that talks about faith, hope, and love, and the 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:08.200 greatest of these is love. And I remember Ian giving 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:10.400 a sermon on that. And then we had the communion, 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:12.640 which I was welcome to participate. 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:15.440 And in what impacts did that church service have on you? 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:19.120 I had what at best can be described as like 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:25.160 a spiritual experience. I'd been I'd been approaching religion as 0:11:25.200 --> 0:11:29.880 an intellectual exercise up until that point. Does that make sense? 0:11:29.960 --> 0:11:33.400 Is that rational? But I had what I would call 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:36.480 religious experience there, and it quite overwhelmed me. 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:39.480 Now, Ian Wilkinson was sitting in the body of the 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.000 court with some of his family members and the Patterson 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:44.720 family members. As we've seen over what is now the 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:46.600 six weeks of this trial, there. 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:48.679 Was about a dozen of them there today, Penny, and 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:51.920 I would say half of them spent a majority of 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:54.920 Aaron Patterson's evidence today looking straight ahead or looking at 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:58.240 the ground. A couple of them also had their eyes closed. 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:00.199 It was only I would say less than half of 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:02.120 them had actually turned around and had to look to 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:03.640 their left to see Aaron Patterson. 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:06.480 Yeah, certainly, at some points I saw during this part 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:09.319 of the evidence Ian Wilkinson looking certainly what it looked 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:11.679 like towards Aaron Patterson in the witness box. He had 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:15.160 his arms crossed, his legs crossed, his arms around himself, 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:17.800 which he has sort of sat in that position many 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:19.599 times in the court before. But he did seem to 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:21.880 be watching the witness box and looking at her the 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:22.600 same way he. 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:24.360 Has with other witnesses as well. 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:26.240 While while he was sort of being mentioned for the 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:29.800 first time in this evidence and as part of going 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:33.880 through kind of the trajectory of Simon and Aaron Patterson's relationship, 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:36.920 Colin Mandy sc asked his client a little bit about 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:39.560 their wedding now. She said they got married in karen Burr, 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:42.400 and he particularly asked her where her parents were at 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:42.840 that time. 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:45.880 She recalled that they were in Russia on a train 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:48.840 she believed was a holiday and it was in fact, 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:52.000 one of Simon Patterson's cousins, David, she recalled, who walked 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:54.840 her down the aisle on that occasion. She also recalled 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:57.200 that they had the wedding at a different church than 0:12:57.240 --> 0:12:59.600 where Ian was a pastor because they wanted him to 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:01.520 and his wife to be able to come and enjoy 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:04.160 the day rather than running around and doing tasks. And 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:08.160 she recalled that Don and Gail had also booked a 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:11.679 really large marquee and outdoor marquee in a vacant paddock 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:14.240 that they'd been able to use for the day, and 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:16.680 they paid for a buffet of food. That was a 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:17.240 memory she. 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:19.360 Also shared with the jury, Yeah, and that this sort 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:21.679 of reception was very close to where they were living 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:23.520 at the time, and it was it was quite local, 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:25.199 and she did mention that she wanted people to kind 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:28.160 of be relaxed and enjoy this particular day and that 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:31.240 it was quite a large occasion. But then she was 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:33.640 sort of taken to the next part of her and 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:37.319 Simon's relationship and the fact that they wanted to have children. 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:40.240 Her barrister took her through what her age was about 0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:41.959 this time. She said it was about thirty three, and 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:43.800 she said they both kind of wanted to settle down 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:46.240 and she was quite keen to have children, and at 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:50.160 this time they were actually based in Wa. So she 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:53.880 explained that initially after this wedding that had a long 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:56.360 weekend in a Linda, which is in a part of Victoria, 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:57.840 but that they really wanted to go on a big 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:00.000 trip around Australia as their honeymoon. 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:02.720 She recalled Penny that they sold up everything. She even 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:06.400 recalled that they sold Simon's car to his parents and 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:09.880 essentially Yeh got rid of everything, packed up and moved 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:12.760 over to Perth. And she recalled that Simon got a 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:14.480 job for a while and they were renting a really 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:17.240 small flat and that's when she gave birth to her 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:19.640 first son, and that was an experience she said, was 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:21.520 really traumatic. And that was the first time that I 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:24.120 saw Aaron Patterson on the stand today. Welling up with 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:26.760 tears seemed to be a difficult thing for her to 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:29.280 speak about, and she paused before some of her answers 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:32.600 at this point, and I could see her her fingers 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:36.760 sort of clenched together. A lot of her evidence today. 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:39.680 We saw her hands moving around as she was speaking, 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:42.520 and she was nodding as Colin Mandy was asking questions. 0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:44.520 But at this point I did see her. She was 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:47.480 sitting with her with her hands and fingers sort of 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:52.400 I guess, moving around as she was slowly answering these questions. 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:55.960 And she was as you mentioned this time, where which 0:14:56.280 --> 0:14:58.920 I also felt that this was the most emotional I 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:01.200 saw her in her evidence today. And while she wasn't 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:05.480 outwardly crying down tears down her face, it was this 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:08.520 sort of choked element in her voice that began to waver, 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:12.000 particularly on the details which the listeners will hear in 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:14.640 a moment through the evidence regarding the way her son 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:17.280 came into the world and the details of that birth. 0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:19.520 So we'll take you to that now again. This is 0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:22.840 Colin Mandy and Aaron Patterson as part of her evidence 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:24.320 when he was questioning her. 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:25.800 It's voiced by actors. 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:29.000 How was his birth? How well were you after giving birth? 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:34.920 His birth was very traumatic for what reason? It went 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:37.520 for a very long time. And then they tried to 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:39.960 get him out with four steps and he wouldn't come out, 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:42.080 and he started to go into distress and they lost 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:45.280 his heartbeat, so they did an emergency cesarean and got 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:46.080 him out quickly. 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:50.880 Okay. Now, as a result of that cesarean, you had 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:52.720 to stay in hospital for a few days. 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:56.040 Yeah, it was sixteen years ago, so I'm not sure 0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:59.840 exactly how long, but it was probably roughly a week 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:03.280 that I was in He was in neonatal ICU for 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:04.480 a while to start with. 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:06.800 And how was it that you ended up leaving hospital? 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:09.080 So the baby had got to a point where they 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:12.440 were happy to discharge him. He was off oxygen, he 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:15.280 was off the feeding tube, and they said he could 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:17.920 be discharged to go home with Simon, but they wanted 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:21.120 me to stay because of they didn't think I had 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:23.840 healed quite well enough from the surgery, and they wanted 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:26.120 me to stay, and I wanted to go with him. 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:28.880 So I remember having a conversation with Simon about it, 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:31.160 and I was really upset and I said, I don't 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:33.400 want to stay here by myself. I want to go 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:37.760 home with him, and Simon said to me, you can 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:40.360 just do it, just let's just leave. 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:43.960 Did that involve you discharging yourself against medical advice? 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:45.120 Yep, it did. 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:47.840 We'll be back after this with a little more of 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:49.040 Aaron Patterson's evidence. 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:49.920 Yeah. 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:53.040 So the next topic that the jury were taken through 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:56.640 from the accused woman was the relationship with John and 0:16:56.680 --> 0:17:00.280 Gale at that time, and she was explaining that it 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:02.720 was only a few weeks after their son was born 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:04.919 that they actually came over to help. And she was 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:07.040 recalling again the fact that they were renting this really 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:10.080 tiny little flat and so what they did is it's 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:12.280 not long after Don and Gale arrived they rented an 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:14.440 Airbnb and then for a few weeks went and stayed 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:15.920 together at a bigger apartment. 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:17.920 Yeah, so she sort of said in her evidence it 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:20.760 was this really nice house down south in Western Australia 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:22.600 while they were living in Perthin, that they'd all gone 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:25.520 and stayed for a week together, being Don and Gail, 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:28.440 Simon and Aaron and the newborn baby at this time. 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:31.879 And she spoke about through her evidence how she was 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:33.680 a new mum and she was sort of asked about 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:36.280 what the relationship was like with Don and Gale. She 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:38.040 sort of said that they were also the first people 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:41.000 who'd come over to visit them with this new baby. 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:42.760 And she said Penny that she felt like she was 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:45.360 a little bit out of her depth when she had 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:47.800 this newborn baby. She didn't really know what to do. 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:50.440 This was all really new for her, and that's when 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:53.680 she began talking about how important she felt her relationship 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:55.440 with Gail Patterson was at the time and the help 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:56.360 that she was providing. 0:17:56.760 --> 0:17:58.720 Here's a little bit of what Aaron Patterson said during 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:01.840 her evidence while being questioned by Colin Mandy and how are. 0:18:01.720 --> 0:18:03.879 You getting on with Don and Gaile during that week? 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:07.480 I remember being really relieved that Gail was there because 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:10.280 I felt really out of my depth. I had no 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:12.199 idea what to do with a baby, and I was 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:16.120 not confident. She was really supportive and gentle and patient 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:16.399 with me. 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:17.600 Did she give you advice? 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:22.000 She did? What about about helping him settle after a feed, 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:25.240 about trying to interpret his cries? And she gave me 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:28.199 good advice about just relax and enjoy it. You know, 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:31.360 you don't have to stick to this timetable, this schedule. 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:33.280 Just relax and enjoy your baby. 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:36.760 And after this, Colin Mandy took Aaron Patterson to another 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:39.320 element and sort of time in her life with her 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:43.080