Speaker 1: Nine podcasts.
Speaker 2: The accused killer, Aaron Patterson has been called to give evidence.
Speaker 2: She appeared to choke back tears as she described the
Speaker 2: traumatic birth of her first child, telling the jury how
Speaker 2: her mother in law, Gail Patterson, offered help and support
Speaker 2: when she was out of her depth. She also gave
Speaker 2: evidence on how she tried to convert her now estranged husband,
Speaker 2: hoping he'd become an atheist, but instead she became a Christian.
Speaker 3: Victoria's Mushroom Mystery, the mushroom lunch that claimed three lives
Speaker 3: an Australian family's meal is now the center of a
Speaker 3: homicide investigation. For bizarre tragedy now grabbing global headlines, Aaron
Speaker 3: Patterson's alleged victims died after eating a family lunch she'd
Speaker 3: serve them at her home. I cannot think of another
Speaker 3: investigation that has generated this level of media and public interest.
Speaker 2: Four of the guests of that lunch were much loved
Speaker 2: members of this church.
Speaker 1: Only one will ever return.
Speaker 3: People are feeling very heavy with having lost such wonderful people.
Speaker 2: Today, Aaron Patterson remained here inside her home.
Speaker 1: She's continued to plead her innocence.
Speaker 2: In a court room in Country Victoria, Aaron Patterson is
Speaker 2: on trial accused of using death cat mushrooms to kill
Speaker 2: She's pleaded not guilty to murdering three of her former
Speaker 2: in laws and attempting to kill a fourth.
Speaker 1: The town's church pastor.
Speaker 2: It's up to the jurors to decide what happened when
Speaker 2: Patterson's loved ones sat down to eat penny.
Speaker 3: After twenty four days, it's finally happened. The accused killer herself,
Speaker 3: Aaron Patterson, has taken to the witness box to give
Speaker 3: evidence for the first time. We heard shortli after three
Speaker 3: o'clock today, Crown prosecutor got up and said to the jury,
Speaker 3: the Crown closes its case. Within a second, Colin Mandy,
Speaker 3: s c defense barrister, rose to his feet and said,
Speaker 3: I call Aaron Patterson. There was silence in the room.
Speaker 3: You could have heard a pin drop. There was her
Speaker 3: heads turning around and looking around to see what anybody
Speaker 3: else was thinking, but essentially there was nothing. The jury
Speaker 3: were given a break and when they returned to the
Speaker 3: court room, Aaron Patterson was in the witness box.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that was It wasn't at Aaron. We heard
Speaker 2: Colin Mandy say, the defense will be calling the accused
Speaker 2: as a witness, and that was when the judge said, well,
Speaker 2: now seems like a good time to have a break.
Speaker 2: So there was this moment, as you said, where there
Speaker 2: was a sort of a feeling in the courtroom that
Speaker 2: everyone was ready for this to begin. But we came
Speaker 2: back a little while later, and when the jury returned
Speaker 2: to the room, Aaron Patterson herself, she was at the
Speaker 2: witness box area of the court directly across from that
Speaker 2: jury box. She was wearing a Paisley style patterned top,
Speaker 2: sort of a Maroney brown top with that pattern, shut
Speaker 2: her hair down. It's quite long, sort of chest length,
Speaker 2: and she gave an affirmation as to swearing to tell
Speaker 2: the truth in her evidence, whereas you can also take
Speaker 2: an oath on the Bible. But she took this affirmation
Speaker 2: and her evidence began.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I could see her shaking her head back and
Speaker 3: forward as she was reading out that affirmation. When it
Speaker 3: got to the point where she said, I tell the
Speaker 3: truth and nothing but the truth, and she shook her
Speaker 3: head as to indicate, yes, I will tell the truth.
Speaker 3: All the jurors sitting on the opposite side of the courtroom,
Speaker 3: we're looking at her and Colin Mandy was in the
Speaker 3: middle of them, turning to his left to face his client,
Speaker 3: and he really started his questioning today painting a picture
Speaker 3: of what Aaron Patterson's life was like in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 3: She was asked a few details about her family life.
Speaker 3: For example, Penny, she talked about the fact that her
Speaker 3: two children had just started a new school, she was
Speaker 3: having self esteem issues, and was also talking about some
Speaker 3: planned weight loss surgery, so she was explaining there was
Speaker 3: a few things going on.
Speaker 1: So she was first sort of taken through.
Speaker 2: I think Colin Mandy described them as at least being
Speaker 2: the better parts of her life at that time. She
Speaker 2: said she had been accepted into doing a university degree
Speaker 2: a Bachelor of Nursing in Midwiffrey at the start of
Speaker 2: that year of twenty twenty three, but she said that
Speaker 2: she'd put that on hold, essentially deferred it because her
Speaker 2: daughter needed a little bit of extra help and that time,
Speaker 2: as well as the fact that kids had changed schools
Speaker 2: at that time of middle twenty twenty three, and she
Speaker 2: said that come the middle of that year that everything
Speaker 2: was sort of going all right, so she had thought
Speaker 2: that she probably would go and do this degree. But
Speaker 2: it was then that Colin Mandy took her through what
Speaker 2: he sort of said were some of the less positive
Speaker 2: elements of her life at that point, and she was
Speaker 2: taken through the situation with her children at that time too.
Speaker 2: She said that the daughter was spending time with her
Speaker 2: estrange husband Simon fairly regularly, but that her son was
Speaker 2: only really seeing him kind of at youth group.
Speaker 1: And at church at that particular time.
Speaker 3: She was also asked questions about her relationship with her
Speaker 3: in laws Don and Gail Pattison at that time, and
Speaker 3: she was explaining that she felt from early twenty twenty
Speaker 3: three that was a bit of a separation was forming.
Speaker 3: Perhaps she wasn't being invited to as many events, and
Speaker 3: she believed that at that time Simon Patterson perhaps was
Speaker 3: having something to do with that and didn't want her
Speaker 3: included in as many events. And then things changed a
Speaker 3: little bit, Penny, and we went into a timeline.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So before we get to that timeline, let's hear
Speaker 2: a little bit about what Aaron Patterson spoke about regarding
Speaker 2: particularly the family relationship and dynamic at this time of
Speaker 2: July twenty twenty three, as well as how she was
Speaker 2: physically and mentally feeling about herself. This is Colin Mandy
Speaker 2: speaking with his client Aaron Patterson. It's voiced by actors.
Speaker 4: Were there parts of your life that weren't so good
Speaker 4: in July of twenty twenty three?
Speaker 5: Yeah, there was. I'd felt for some months that my
Speaker 5: relationship with the wider Patterson family, and particularly Don and Gale,
Speaker 5: had perhaps a bit more distance or space between us.
Speaker 5: We saw each other less. I mean, partly it's a
Speaker 5: consequence of I no longer lived in the same town
Speaker 5: as Don and Gale. But I'd begun to have concerns
Speaker 5: that Simon was not wanting me to be involved too
Speaker 5: much with the family anymore. Perhaps I wasn't being invited
Speaker 5: to so many things.
Speaker 4: And how was your relationship with Simon in July of
Speaker 4: twenty twenty three?
Speaker 5: It was functional. From the start of the year to July.
Speaker 5: We mainly just related on logistical things like church, the streaming,
Speaker 5: the kids, but we didn't relate on friend things banter
Speaker 5: like we used to. That changed at the start of
Speaker 5: the year.
Speaker 4: All right, We'll get back to that in due course.
Speaker 4: How in July of twenty twenty three did you feel
Speaker 4: about yourself physically not good.
Speaker 5: Why I'd been fighting a never ending battle of low
Speaker 5: self esteem most of my adult life, and the further
Speaker 5: inroads I made into being middle aged, the less and
Speaker 5: less I felt good about myself. I suppose put on
Speaker 5: more weight, could handle exercise less.
Speaker 4: Was it principally the weight issue?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean that was the large that was the
Speaker 5: bulk of it. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Did you have plans to do anything about to address
Speaker 4: the weight issue? I did, And what were those plans.
Speaker 5: I was planning to have weight loss surgery, you know,
Speaker 5: is a gastric bypass. I was planning to do that.
Speaker 4: So that's a snapshot of how your life was in
Speaker 4: July of twenty twenty three.
Speaker 2: Yep, that's fair, now, Colin Mandy told the jury and
Speaker 2: told Aaron Patterson he was now going to take her
Speaker 2: back to what he called the beginning, and then he
Speaker 2: went through a number of questions, really right back to
Speaker 2: when Aaron Patterson had met her now estranged husband Simon. Yeah.
Speaker 3: She started the timeline recalling that it was about two
Speaker 3: thousand and three that she believed that she first met Simon,
Speaker 3: and then later corrected it to two thousand and four.
Speaker 3: But at the time they were both working for a
Speaker 3: local council in Melbourne, and she was explaining she was
Speaker 3: working for the RSPCA, but her role was actually located
Speaker 3: inside the council offices. And she first became friends with
Speaker 3: Simon and they would largely do things in groups together
Speaker 3: and it wasn't until mid two thousand and five that
Speaker 3: she recalled that their relationship turned from friendship to a
Speaker 3: romantic relationship. And within a couple of years two thousand
Speaker 3: and seven, Penny, I think it was February two thousand
Speaker 3: and seven, they got engaged. Within months they got married
Speaker 3: in June of that year. But there was one particular
Speaker 3: event she asked to recall by Colin mandy In and
Speaker 3: that was a visit during one of their friendship trips
Speaker 3: where they would go camping and alike, where they went
Speaker 3: and stayed with Don and Gale Patterson down here in Gippsland.
Speaker 3: And Aaron Patterson was explaining at the time she was
Speaker 3: an atheist. She knew that her partner, what Simon at
Speaker 3: that time, was a Christian and she actually said that
Speaker 3: she started off thinking that she was going to convert him,
Speaker 3: but actually went the other way. Yeah, So she spoke
Speaker 3: in this evidence, particularly about that camping that you mentioned.
Speaker 3: She said at this particular time, sort of two thousand
Speaker 3: and five time that Simon really, who was also working
Speaker 3: at this Monash council, she said sort of in a
Speaker 3: traffic engineering capacity, that he was really wanting to focus
Speaker 3: on some time away from work and sort of recharging,
Speaker 3: and that camping was how he was doing that, and
Speaker 3: pretty much that most weekends, especially with this group of friends,
Speaker 3: he was wanting to go camping, but she would often
Speaker 3: join him.
Speaker 1: And she recalled this trip.
Speaker 2: Down to car and Burrough where they'd also stayed with
Speaker 2: Don and Gale Patterson. She said she thought that was
Speaker 2: the first time that she had met them, but it
Speaker 2: was then that her barrister took her.
Speaker 1: Through sort of what her views.
Speaker 2: On religion were and particularly this one experience. So let's
Speaker 2: hear a little bit more from the evidence as it
Speaker 2: was heard by the jury.
Speaker 1: This is no one's real voice.
Speaker 4: When you met Simon. What were your views about religion?
Speaker 5: I was what you could probably call a fundamentalist atheist,
Speaker 5: like I was really very atheist.
Speaker 4: And what was Simon's views?
Speaker 5: Oh, he was a Christian?
Speaker 4: Yeah, And did your attitude towards religion change.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it did.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and when was that?
Speaker 5: So? Through the course of those months December fourth, January
Speaker 5: February oh five, we had a lot of conversations about life, religion, politics,
Speaker 5: and a lot about religion, and I was trying to
Speaker 5: convert him to being an atheist, but things happened in
Speaker 5: reverse and I became a Christian.
Speaker 4: You said that you first met Don and Gale when
Speaker 4: you went on a trip to karen Borough.
Speaker 5: Yep.
Speaker 4: Did you go to church on that trip to karen Borough?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 5: It was the first church service I'd ever been to.
Speaker 4: And do you remember when that was?
Speaker 5: I think the closest I can say is March or April,
Speaker 5: but I don't think it was Easter, so.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's fine much or April. Do you remember the
Speaker 4: experience of going to church on that occasion?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I do. I remember being really excited about it
Speaker 5: because I'd never been to a church service before. I'd
Speaker 5: been to my sister's wedding in a church, but that
Speaker 5: was it and I was really looking forward to it.
Speaker 5: Which church wasn't It was Current Borough Baptist Church.
Speaker 4: And what do you remember about that church service?
Speaker 5: I remember that there was a banner up on the
Speaker 5: wall behind where Ian was preaching.
Speaker 4: When you say Ian, do you mean Ian Wilkinson.
Speaker 5: That's right. He was the pastor and he is giving
Speaker 5: a sermon that day. And then there was then a banner.
Speaker 5: It could still be there now, but it said it
Speaker 5: has on it faith, hope, and love. And Ian gave
Speaker 5: a sermon talking about that. There's a passage in the
Speaker 5: Bible that talks about faith, hope, and love, and the
Speaker 5: greatest of these is love. And I remember Ian giving
Speaker 5: a sermon on that. And then we had the communion,
Speaker 5: which I was welcome to participate.
Speaker 4: And in what impacts did that church service have on you?
Speaker 5: I had what at best can be described as like
Speaker 5: a spiritual experience. I'd been I'd been approaching religion as
Speaker 5: an intellectual exercise up until that point. Does that make sense?
Speaker 5: Is that rational? But I had what I would call
Speaker 5: religious experience there, and it quite overwhelmed me.
Speaker 2: Now, Ian Wilkinson was sitting in the body of the
Speaker 2: court with some of his family members and the Patterson
Speaker 2: family members. As we've seen over what is now the
Speaker 2: six weeks of this trial, there.
Speaker 3: Was about a dozen of them there today, Penny, and
Speaker 3: I would say half of them spent a majority of
Speaker 3: Aaron Patterson's evidence today looking straight ahead or looking at
Speaker 3: the ground. A couple of them also had their eyes closed.
Speaker 3: It was only I would say less than half of
Speaker 3: them had actually turned around and had to look to
Speaker 3: their left to see Aaron Patterson.
Speaker 2: Yeah, certainly, at some points I saw during this part
Speaker 2: of the evidence Ian Wilkinson looking certainly what it looked
Speaker 2: like towards Aaron Patterson in the witness box. He had
Speaker 2: his arms crossed, his legs crossed, his arms around himself,
Speaker 2: which he has sort of sat in that position many
Speaker 2: times in the court before. But he did seem to
Speaker 2: be watching the witness box and looking at her the
Speaker 2: same way he.
Speaker 1: Has with other witnesses as well.
Speaker 2: While while he was sort of being mentioned for the
Speaker 2: first time in this evidence and as part of going
Speaker 2: through kind of the trajectory of Simon and Aaron Patterson's relationship,
Speaker 2: Colin Mandy sc asked his client a little bit about
Speaker 2: their wedding now. She said they got married in karen Burr,
Speaker 2: and he particularly asked her where her parents were at
Speaker 2: that time.
Speaker 3: She recalled that they were in Russia on a train
Speaker 3: she believed was a holiday and it was in fact,
Speaker 3: one of Simon Patterson's cousins, David, she recalled, who walked
Speaker 3: her down the aisle on that occasion. She also recalled
Speaker 3: that they had the wedding at a different church than
Speaker 3: where Ian was a pastor because they wanted him to
Speaker 3: and his wife to be able to come and enjoy
Speaker 3: the day rather than running around and doing tasks. And
Speaker 3: she recalled that Don and Gail had also booked a
Speaker 3: really large marquee and outdoor marquee in a vacant paddock
Speaker 3: that they'd been able to use for the day, and
Speaker 3: they paid for a buffet of food. That was a
Speaker 3: memory she.
Speaker 2: Also shared with the jury, Yeah, and that this sort
Speaker 2: of reception was very close to where they were living
Speaker 2: at the time, and it was it was quite local,
Speaker 2: and she did mention that she wanted people to kind
Speaker 2: of be relaxed and enjoy this particular day and that
Speaker 2: it was quite a large occasion. But then she was
Speaker 2: sort of taken to the next part of her and
Speaker 2: Simon's relationship and the fact that they wanted to have children.
Speaker 2: Her barrister took her through what her age was about
Speaker 2: this time. She said it was about thirty three, and
Speaker 2: she said they both kind of wanted to settle down
Speaker 2: and she was quite keen to have children, and at
Speaker 2: this time they were actually based in Wa. So she
Speaker 2: explained that initially after this wedding that had a long
Speaker 2: weekend in a Linda, which is in a part of Victoria,
Speaker 2: but that they really wanted to go on a big
Speaker 2: trip around Australia as their honeymoon.
Speaker 3: She recalled Penny that they sold up everything. She even
Speaker 3: recalled that they sold Simon's car to his parents and
Speaker 3: essentially Yeh got rid of everything, packed up and moved
Speaker 3: over to Perth. And she recalled that Simon got a
Speaker 3: job for a while and they were renting a really
Speaker 3: small flat and that's when she gave birth to her
Speaker 3: first son, and that was an experience she said, was
Speaker 3: really traumatic. And that was the first time that I
Speaker 3: saw Aaron Patterson on the stand today. Welling up with
Speaker 3: tears seemed to be a difficult thing for her to
Speaker 3: speak about, and she paused before some of her answers
Speaker 3: at this point, and I could see her her fingers
Speaker 3: sort of clenched together. A lot of her evidence today.
Speaker 3: We saw her hands moving around as she was speaking,
Speaker 3: and she was nodding as Colin Mandy was asking questions.
Speaker 3: But at this point I did see her. She was
Speaker 3: sitting with her with her hands and fingers sort of
Speaker 3: I guess, moving around as she was slowly answering these questions.
Speaker 2: And she was as you mentioned this time, where which
Speaker 2: I also felt that this was the most emotional I
Speaker 2: saw her in her evidence today. And while she wasn't
Speaker 2: outwardly crying down tears down her face, it was this
Speaker 2: sort of choked element in her voice that began to waver,
Speaker 2: particularly on the details which the listeners will hear in
Speaker 2: a moment through the evidence regarding the way her son
Speaker 2: came into the world and the details of that birth.
Speaker 2: So we'll take you to that now again. This is
Speaker 2: Colin Mandy and Aaron Patterson as part of her evidence
Speaker 2: when he was questioning her.
Speaker 1: It's voiced by actors.
Speaker 4: How was his birth? How well were you after giving birth?
Speaker 5: His birth was very traumatic for what reason? It went
Speaker 5: for a very long time. And then they tried to
Speaker 5: get him out with four steps and he wouldn't come out,
Speaker 5: and he started to go into distress and they lost
Speaker 5: his heartbeat, so they did an emergency cesarean and got
Speaker 5: him out quickly.
Speaker 4: Okay. Now, as a result of that cesarean, you had
Speaker 4: to stay in hospital for a few days.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was sixteen years ago, so I'm not sure
Speaker 5: exactly how long, but it was probably roughly a week
Speaker 5: that I was in He was in neonatal ICU for
Speaker 5: a while to start with.
Speaker 4: And how was it that you ended up leaving hospital?
Speaker 5: So the baby had got to a point where they
Speaker 5: were happy to discharge him. He was off oxygen, he
Speaker 5: was off the feeding tube, and they said he could
Speaker 5: be discharged to go home with Simon, but they wanted
Speaker 5: me to stay because of they didn't think I had
Speaker 5: healed quite well enough from the surgery, and they wanted
Speaker 5: me to stay, and I wanted to go with him.
Speaker 5: So I remember having a conversation with Simon about it,
Speaker 5: and I was really upset and I said, I don't
Speaker 5: want to stay here by myself. I want to go
Speaker 5: home with him, and Simon said to me, you can
Speaker 5: just do it, just let's just leave.
Speaker 4: Did that involve you discharging yourself against medical advice?
Speaker 1: Yep, it did.
Speaker 2: We'll be back after this with a little more of
Speaker 2: Aaron Patterson's evidence.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So the next topic that the jury were taken through
Speaker 3: from the accused woman was the relationship with John and
Speaker 3: Gale at that time, and she was explaining that it
Speaker 3: was only a few weeks after their son was born
Speaker 3: that they actually came over to help. And she was
Speaker 3: recalling again the fact that they were renting this really
Speaker 3: tiny little flat and so what they did is it's
Speaker 3: not long after Don and Gale arrived they rented an
Speaker 3: Airbnb and then for a few weeks went and stayed
Speaker 3: together at a bigger apartment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so she sort of said in her evidence it
Speaker 2: was this really nice house down south in Western Australia
Speaker 2: while they were living in Perthin, that they'd all gone
Speaker 2: and stayed for a week together, being Don and Gail,
Speaker 2: Simon and Aaron and the newborn baby at this time.
Speaker 2: And she spoke about through her evidence how she was
Speaker 2: a new mum and she was sort of asked about
Speaker 2: what the relationship was like with Don and Gale. She
Speaker 2: sort of said that they were also the first people
Speaker 2: who'd come over to visit them with this new baby.
Speaker 3: And she said Penny that she felt like she was
Speaker 3: a little bit out of her depth when she had
Speaker 3: this newborn baby. She didn't really know what to do.
Speaker 3: This was all really new for her, and that's when
Speaker 3: she began talking about how important she felt her relationship
Speaker 3: with Gail Patterson was at the time and the help
Speaker 3: that she was providing.
Speaker 2: Here's a little bit of what Aaron Patterson said during
Speaker 2: her evidence while being questioned by Colin Mandy and how are.
Speaker 4: You getting on with Don and Gaile during that week?
Speaker 5: I remember being really relieved that Gail was there because
Speaker 5: I felt really out of my depth. I had no
Speaker 5: idea what to do with a baby, and I was
Speaker 5: not confident. She was really supportive and gentle and patient
Speaker 5: with me.
Speaker 4: Did she give you advice?
Speaker 5: She did? What about about helping him settle after a feed,
Speaker 5: about trying to interpret his cries? And she gave me
Speaker 5: good advice about just relax and enjoy it. You know,
Speaker 5: you don't have to stick to this timetable, this schedule.
Speaker 5: Just relax and enjoy your baby.
Speaker 2: And after this, Colin Mandy took Aaron Patterson to another
Speaker 2: element and sort of time in her life with her
Speaker 2: newborn baby and with Simon Patterson about a big trip
Speaker 2: they took around Australia, and she sort of explained to
Speaker 2: the jury that this really began not long after the
Speaker 2: son being born. He was only around three months old
Speaker 2: when they took off with this miss and patrol that
Speaker 2: they bought over with them and on this big adventure
Speaker 2: around the country.
Speaker 3: She said they really wanted to travel across the top
Speaker 3: of Australia, and so their travels began. She explained that
Speaker 3: in the beginning it was quite easy with her son.
Speaker 3: He was really really tiny and really slept all the time,
Speaker 3: and she even sort of got a little bit jovial
Speaker 3: as she expressed a memory where she remembered joking about
Speaker 3: the fact that her son slept so much she'd forgotten
Speaker 3: about the color of his eyes. But as they traversed
Speaker 3: the top of Australia and got across and down to Townsville,
Speaker 3: she felt things were starting to change. And she said
Speaker 3: her young son was now trying to stand up, and
Speaker 3: he was crawling and moving around, and things got quite
Speaker 3: difficult at that point for her.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so she explained it.
Speaker 2: Initially this trip they'd sort of gone up to the
Speaker 2: top of the Northern Territory. They'd ended up coming through
Speaker 2: Tenant Creek and all the way across to Queensland, up
Speaker 2: to Cannes, up to Townsville.
Speaker 1: That this was really quite a long trip.
Speaker 2: Where they spoke about meeting up with other people as well,
Speaker 2: friends along the way, but that when she'd got to
Speaker 2: this point, this is where things really started to change.
Speaker 2: And here's a little bit of what Aaron Patterson told
Speaker 2: the court while being questioned by her barrister.
Speaker 1: It's no one's real voice.
Speaker 4: About what month, approximately did you end up in Townsville.
Speaker 5: It would have been around November oh nine.
Speaker 4: And how are you feeling in November of two thousand
Speaker 4: and nine in terms of all that travel that you
Speaker 4: had been doing.
Speaker 5: It had been a good holiday, but I'd had enough.
Speaker 5: I wanted to sleep in a real bed, and it
Speaker 5: was getting harder to camp with our son. Like when
Speaker 5: we started off, he was three months old, he slept
Speaker 5: a lot. I remember joking at the time that I
Speaker 5: couldn't remember his eye color because his eyes were never open.
Speaker 1: Like he slept a lot.
Speaker 5: So when we first started traveling, you know, we could
Speaker 5: drive our long drives of these three hour naps that
Speaker 5: he had. But by November he was sitting up and
Speaker 5: crawling and trying to stand and not sleeping as much,
Speaker 5: and it was a lot harder.
Speaker 1: I'd had a gut full.
Speaker 4: Did you and Simon talk about that?
Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, yeah we did.
Speaker 4: And what was the agreement you came to.
Speaker 5: The agreement we came to was that I flew back
Speaker 5: to Perth and Simon followed with the baby in the patrol.
Speaker 4: And how long did it take Simon to get back
Speaker 4: to both?
Speaker 5: I think it was about a week five to seven
Speaker 5: days somewhere around there.
Speaker 4: When you got back to Berth and when Simon got
Speaker 4: back to Birth. So the two of you were together
Speaker 4: in Perth. Did something about your living arrangements change then?
Speaker 5: Yeah, it did. When I got back to Perth, I
Speaker 5: hired I rented a little cottage for me and the
Speaker 5: baby to live in, and Simon rented an on site
Speaker 5: caravan close by.
Speaker 4: We've heard evidence that there were periods of separation. Was
Speaker 4: this one of them?
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was the first one.
Speaker 3: It was explained by Aaron Patterson that by the time
Speaker 3: they sort of all returned back to Perth, that, as
Speaker 3: she said, she was living in this little cottage, Simon
Speaker 3: was living in the caravan. But she said this period
Speaker 3: of separation didn't last too long, that sort of by the.
Speaker 2: January of the next year they were back together. So
Speaker 2: it was kind of just a few months.
Speaker 3: Yeah. She said that was the first separation that she
Speaker 3: could recall between the pair, but she did agree when
Speaker 3: question by her defense barrister that they continued to split
Speaker 3: up and get back together again over a number of
Speaker 3: years until ultimately they separated permanently around twenty fifteen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it was when she was being asked about
Speaker 2: this a number of times she was sort of asked
Speaker 2: about what was the tension in the relationship, and.
Speaker 1: She described that it was mostly that she and Simon.
Speaker 2: That they couldn't communicate very well, was her evidence, but
Speaker 2: that they didn't disagree on how they should parent their son.
Speaker 2: And she said something toward the end of her evidence
Speaker 2: on this day as to the fact that what they
Speaker 2: had were adult problems, not for a child, and that
Speaker 2: she felt, at least at that point that things when
Speaker 2: this baby was little were fairly cohesive.
Speaker 1: On wanting to parent him in the same direction.
Speaker 3: She said that she didn't recall any conflict at that
Speaker 3: stage when it came to parenting their son, and she
Speaker 3: also agreed that continued that way for a number of years.
Speaker 3: But this was another time Penny where she did become
Speaker 3: quite emotional again when she was asking about how they
Speaker 3: were co parenting their son. We know their daughter didn't
Speaker 3: come along for a few years later, and so a
Speaker 3: lot of those questions were related to their firstborn son.
Speaker 3: But yeah, she started to well up again and appeared
Speaker 3: a little bit uncomfortable in the docks. Very personal questions,
Speaker 3: as we know, and that's where the evidence was wrapped
Speaker 3: up for today. We expect her to be on the
Speaker 3: stand again tomorrow and I guess we'll wait and see
Speaker 3: what the rest of the week looks like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and just before we finished with the listeners, people
Speaker 2: might be wondering how we got to this point. As
Speaker 2: you mentioned earlier, before Aaron Patterson was called by her
Speaker 2: defense barrister as their first witness that we heard from
Speaker 2: the Crown prosecutor we close our case, which is something
Speaker 2: that's formally said by the prosecution. And the last person
Speaker 2: on the stand before this was Stephen Eppingstall, the lead
Speaker 2: detective in the case. His evidence went across five days.
Speaker 2: The very end of it came just before Aaron Patterson
Speaker 2: took the stand, and I do just want to take
Speaker 2: the listeners to a little bit of some messages that
Speaker 2: he was sort of shown in the very last bit
Speaker 2: of his evidence when he was being re examined by
Speaker 2: the prosecution. Now, these were messages that the court was
Speaker 2: shown where it was said to be Aaron Patterson and
Speaker 2: Gail Patterson texting back and forth, and in them she
Speaker 2: mentioned Aaron Patterson that Heather had confirmed for Saturday, the
Speaker 2: twenty ninth of July, is that that was good for.
Speaker 1: Them to come to lunch home, hopefully it is for
Speaker 1: you too, and that.
Speaker 2: There had come a reply from Gail, yes, good for us,
Speaker 2: and that basically less than a minute later there'd been
Speaker 2: this response great thank you from Erin. And these text
Speaker 2: messages were in the lead up to the fatal lunch
Speaker 2: that was heard at Aaron Patterson's home. And there was
Speaker 2: also some agreed facts that were read to the jury.
Speaker 2: Now the jury was told there to take these as
Speaker 2: being sort of agreed between the accused and the prosecution,
Speaker 2: and there was a number of those read out, but
Speaker 2: two of them being that Aaron Patterson agrees as the
Speaker 2: prosecutors also say that there was some fingerprints that showed
Speaker 2: sort of three of her finger imprints taken from the
Speaker 2: Sunbeam dehydrator that was retrieved from the Kunwara transfer station
Speaker 2: following the lunch, and that also when they were talking
Speaker 2: about simcard evidence, there was a bit read out to
Speaker 2: the jury regarding excepting that when they have heard about
Speaker 2: some evidence regarding a simcard being taken in and out
Speaker 2: of a phone on a particular date during a search
Speaker 2: at Aaron Patterson's home, that there was sort of three
Speaker 2: different options as to how that could have happened. That
Speaker 2: the SIM card had been removed, that the battery had
Speaker 2: been removed from the handset without it being turned off,
Speaker 2: or that the handset had somehow become damaged in such
Speaker 2: a way that it was no longer connecting properly. But
Speaker 2: as you mentioned, Aaron Patterson were expecting to be back
Speaker 2: on the stand and we'll bring the listeners more when
Speaker 2: her evidence and any other evidence continues. Thank you for
Speaker 2: listening to this episode of Say Grace. Please press the
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Speaker 2: as soon as we publish.
Speaker 3: For more reporting on the case, check out the Age
Speaker 3: of nine News in your browser or app store.
Speaker 2: We'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land
Speaker 2: that this podcast was recorded on and wherever you're listening
Speaker 2: to it now. Say Grace is created and hosted by
Speaker 2: me Penelope Lesh and me Erin Pearson.
Speaker 1: This podcast is produced by Genevieve Rule.