1 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: Nine podcasts. 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 2: The accused killer, Aaron Patterson has been called to give evidence. 3 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 2: She appeared to choke back tears as she described the 4 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 2: traumatic birth of her first child, telling the jury how 5 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 2: her mother in law, Gail Patterson, offered help and support 6 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 2: when she was out of her depth. She also gave 7 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 2: evidence on how she tried to convert her now estranged husband, 8 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 2: hoping he'd become an atheist, but instead she became a Christian. 9 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 3: Victoria's Mushroom Mystery, the mushroom lunch that claimed three lives 10 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 3: an Australian family's meal is now the center of a 11 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 3: homicide investigation. For bizarre tragedy now grabbing global headlines, Aaron 12 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 3: Patterson's alleged victims died after eating a family lunch she'd 13 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:46,840 Speaker 3: serve them at her home. I cannot think of another 14 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 3: investigation that has generated this level of media and public interest. 15 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 2: Four of the guests of that lunch were much loved 16 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 2: members of this church. 17 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: Only one will ever return. 18 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 3: People are feeling very heavy with having lost such wonderful people. 19 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 2: Today, Aaron Patterson remained here inside her home. 20 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: She's continued to plead her innocence. 21 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 2: In a court room in Country Victoria, Aaron Patterson is 22 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 2: on trial accused of using death cat mushrooms to kill 23 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:21,199 Speaker 2: She's pleaded not guilty to murdering three of her former 24 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 2: in laws and attempting to kill a fourth. 25 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: The town's church pastor. 26 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,040 Speaker 2: It's up to the jurors to decide what happened when 27 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 2: Patterson's loved ones sat down to eat penny. 28 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:36,040 Speaker 3: After twenty four days, it's finally happened. The accused killer herself, 29 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:38,479 Speaker 3: Aaron Patterson, has taken to the witness box to give 30 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 3: evidence for the first time. We heard shortli after three 31 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 3: o'clock today, Crown prosecutor got up and said to the jury, 32 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 3: the Crown closes its case. Within a second, Colin Mandy, 33 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 3: s c defense barrister, rose to his feet and said, 34 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 3: I call Aaron Patterson. There was silence in the room. 35 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 3: You could have heard a pin drop. There was her 36 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 3: heads turning around and looking around to see what anybody 37 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 3: else was thinking, but essentially there was nothing. The jury 38 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 3: were given a break and when they returned to the 39 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 3: court room, Aaron Patterson was in the witness box. 40 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that was It wasn't at Aaron. We heard 41 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 2: Colin Mandy say, the defense will be calling the accused 42 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 2: as a witness, and that was when the judge said, well, 43 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 2: now seems like a good time to have a break. 44 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 2: So there was this moment, as you said, where there 45 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:24,959 Speaker 2: was a sort of a feeling in the courtroom that 46 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:27,839 Speaker 2: everyone was ready for this to begin. But we came 47 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 2: back a little while later, and when the jury returned 48 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 2: to the room, Aaron Patterson herself, she was at the 49 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 2: witness box area of the court directly across from that 50 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 2: jury box. She was wearing a Paisley style patterned top, 51 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 2: sort of a Maroney brown top with that pattern, shut 52 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 2: her hair down. It's quite long, sort of chest length, 53 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 2: and she gave an affirmation as to swearing to tell 54 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 2: the truth in her evidence, whereas you can also take 55 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 2: an oath on the Bible. But she took this affirmation 56 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 2: and her evidence began. 57 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, I could see her shaking her head back and 58 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 3: forward as she was reading out that affirmation. When it 59 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 3: got to the point where she said, I tell the 60 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 3: truth and nothing but the truth, and she shook her 61 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 3: head as to indicate, yes, I will tell the truth. 62 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 3: All the jurors sitting on the opposite side of the courtroom, 63 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 3: we're looking at her and Colin Mandy was in the 64 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 3: middle of them, turning to his left to face his client, 65 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 3: and he really started his questioning today painting a picture 66 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 3: of what Aaron Patterson's life was like in twenty twenty three. 67 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 3: She was asked a few details about her family life. 68 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 3: For example, Penny, she talked about the fact that her 69 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 3: two children had just started a new school, she was 70 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 3: having self esteem issues, and was also talking about some 71 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 3: planned weight loss surgery, so she was explaining there was 72 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 3: a few things going on. 73 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: So she was first sort of taken through. 74 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 2: I think Colin Mandy described them as at least being 75 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: the better parts of her life at that time. She 76 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 2: said she had been accepted into doing a university degree 77 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 2: a Bachelor of Nursing in Midwiffrey at the start of 78 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 2: that year of twenty twenty three, but she said that 79 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 2: she'd put that on hold, essentially deferred it because her 80 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 2: daughter needed a little bit of extra help and that time, 81 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 2: as well as the fact that kids had changed schools 82 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 2: at that time of middle twenty twenty three, and she 83 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 2: said that come the middle of that year that everything 84 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 2: was sort of going all right, so she had thought 85 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 2: that she probably would go and do this degree. But 86 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 2: it was then that Colin Mandy took her through what 87 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 2: he sort of said were some of the less positive 88 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 2: elements of her life at that point, and she was 89 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 2: taken through the situation with her children at that time too. 90 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 2: She said that the daughter was spending time with her 91 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 2: estrange husband Simon fairly regularly, but that her son was 92 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 2: only really seeing him kind of at youth group. 93 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 1: And at church at that particular time. 94 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 3: She was also asked questions about her relationship with her 95 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 3: in laws Don and Gail Pattison at that time, and 96 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 3: she was explaining that she felt from early twenty twenty 97 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 3: three that was a bit of a separation was forming. 98 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 3: Perhaps she wasn't being invited to as many events, and 99 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 3: she believed that at that time Simon Patterson perhaps was 100 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 3: having something to do with that and didn't want her 101 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 3: included in as many events. And then things changed a 102 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 3: little bit, Penny, and we went into a timeline. 103 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, So before we get to that timeline, let's hear 104 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 2: a little bit about what Aaron Patterson spoke about regarding 105 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 2: particularly the family relationship and dynamic at this time of 106 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 2: July twenty twenty three, as well as how she was 107 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 2: physically and mentally feeling about herself. This is Colin Mandy 108 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 2: speaking with his client Aaron Patterson. It's voiced by actors. 109 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 4: Were there parts of your life that weren't so good 110 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 4: in July of twenty twenty three? 111 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,919 Speaker 5: Yeah, there was. I'd felt for some months that my 112 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 5: relationship with the wider Patterson family, and particularly Don and Gale, 113 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 5: had perhaps a bit more distance or space between us. 114 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 5: We saw each other less. I mean, partly it's a 115 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 5: consequence of I no longer lived in the same town 116 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,720 Speaker 5: as Don and Gale. But I'd begun to have concerns 117 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 5: that Simon was not wanting me to be involved too 118 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 5: much with the family anymore. Perhaps I wasn't being invited 119 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 5: to so many things. 120 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 4: And how was your relationship with Simon in July of 121 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 4: twenty twenty three? 122 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 5: It was functional. From the start of the year to July. 123 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 5: We mainly just related on logistical things like church, the streaming, 124 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 5: the kids, but we didn't relate on friend things banter 125 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 5: like we used to. That changed at the start of 126 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 5: the year. 127 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:16,799 Speaker 4: All right, We'll get back to that in due course. 128 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 4: How in July of twenty twenty three did you feel 129 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 4: about yourself physically not good. 130 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 5: Why I'd been fighting a never ending battle of low 131 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 5: self esteem most of my adult life, and the further 132 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 5: inroads I made into being middle aged, the less and 133 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 5: less I felt good about myself. I suppose put on 134 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 5: more weight, could handle exercise less. 135 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 4: Was it principally the weight issue? 136 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean that was the large that was the 137 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:47,239 Speaker 5: bulk of it. Yeah. 138 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 4: Did you have plans to do anything about to address 139 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 4: the weight issue? I did, And what were those plans. 140 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 5: I was planning to have weight loss surgery, you know, 141 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 5: is a gastric bypass. I was planning to do that. 142 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 4: So that's a snapshot of how your life was in 143 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 4: July of twenty twenty three. 144 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 2: Yep, that's fair, now, Colin Mandy told the jury and 145 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 2: told Aaron Patterson he was now going to take her 146 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 2: back to what he called the beginning, and then he 147 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 2: went through a number of questions, really right back to 148 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 2: when Aaron Patterson had met her now estranged husband Simon. Yeah. 149 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 3: She started the timeline recalling that it was about two 150 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 3: thousand and three that she believed that she first met Simon, 151 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 3: and then later corrected it to two thousand and four. 152 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 3: But at the time they were both working for a 153 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 3: local council in Melbourne, and she was explaining she was 154 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 3: working for the RSPCA, but her role was actually located 155 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 3: inside the council offices. And she first became friends with 156 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 3: Simon and they would largely do things in groups together 157 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 3: and it wasn't until mid two thousand and five that 158 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 3: she recalled that their relationship turned from friendship to a 159 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 3: romantic relationship. And within a couple of years two thousand 160 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,119 Speaker 3: and seven, Penny, I think it was February two thousand 161 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 3: and seven, they got engaged. Within months they got married 162 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 3: in June of that year. But there was one particular 163 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 3: event she asked to recall by Colin mandy In and 164 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 3: that was a visit during one of their friendship trips 165 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 3: where they would go camping and alike, where they went 166 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 3: and stayed with Don and Gale Patterson down here in Gippsland. 167 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 3: And Aaron Patterson was explaining at the time she was 168 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 3: an atheist. She knew that her partner, what Simon at 169 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 3: that time, was a Christian and she actually said that 170 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 3: she started off thinking that she was going to convert him, 171 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 3: but actually went the other way. Yeah, So she spoke 172 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 3: in this evidence, particularly about that camping that you mentioned. 173 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 3: She said at this particular time, sort of two thousand 174 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 3: and five time that Simon really, who was also working 175 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 3: at this Monash council, she said sort of in a 176 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 3: traffic engineering capacity, that he was really wanting to focus 177 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 3: on some time away from work and sort of recharging, 178 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:44,319 Speaker 3: and that camping was how he was doing that, and 179 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 3: pretty much that most weekends, especially with this group of friends, 180 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 3: he was wanting to go camping, but she would often 181 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:49,559 Speaker 3: join him. 182 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: And she recalled this trip. 183 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 2: Down to car and Burrough where they'd also stayed with 184 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 2: Don and Gale Patterson. She said she thought that was 185 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 2: the first time that she had met them, but it 186 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 2: was then that her barrister took her. 187 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:00,839 Speaker 1: Through sort of what her views. 188 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,959 Speaker 2: On religion were and particularly this one experience. So let's 189 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 2: hear a little bit more from the evidence as it 190 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:07,439 Speaker 2: was heard by the jury. 191 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: This is no one's real voice. 192 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 4: When you met Simon. What were your views about religion? 193 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 5: I was what you could probably call a fundamentalist atheist, 194 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:19,079 Speaker 5: like I was really very atheist. 195 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 4: And what was Simon's views? 196 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 5: Oh, he was a Christian? 197 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,439 Speaker 4: Yeah, And did your attitude towards religion change. 198 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 5: Yeah, it did. 199 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:28,319 Speaker 4: Yeah, and when was that? 200 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 5: So? Through the course of those months December fourth, January 201 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 5: February oh five, we had a lot of conversations about life, religion, politics, 202 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 5: and a lot about religion, and I was trying to 203 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 5: convert him to being an atheist, but things happened in 204 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 5: reverse and I became a Christian. 205 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 4: You said that you first met Don and Gale when 206 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 4: you went on a trip to karen Borough. 207 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 5: Yep. 208 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 4: Did you go to church on that trip to karen Borough? 209 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:57,079 Speaker 2: Yeah? 210 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 5: It was the first church service I'd ever been to. 211 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 4: And do you remember when that was? 212 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 5: I think the closest I can say is March or April, 213 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 5: but I don't think it was Easter, so. 214 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's fine much or April. Do you remember the 215 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 4: experience of going to church on that occasion? 216 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 5: Yeah, I do. I remember being really excited about it 217 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 5: because I'd never been to a church service before. I'd 218 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 5: been to my sister's wedding in a church, but that 219 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 5: was it and I was really looking forward to it. 220 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 5: Which church wasn't It was Current Borough Baptist Church. 221 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:34,959 Speaker 4: And what do you remember about that church service? 222 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 5: I remember that there was a banner up on the 223 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 5: wall behind where Ian was preaching. 224 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:43,839 Speaker 4: When you say Ian, do you mean Ian Wilkinson. 225 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 5: That's right. He was the pastor and he is giving 226 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 5: a sermon that day. And then there was then a banner. 227 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 5: It could still be there now, but it said it 228 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 5: has on it faith, hope, and love. And Ian gave 229 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 5: a sermon talking about that. There's a passage in the 230 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,319 Speaker 5: Bible that talks about faith, hope, and love, and the 231 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 5: greatest of these is love. And I remember Ian giving 232 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 5: a sermon on that. And then we had the communion, 233 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 5: which I was welcome to participate. 234 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 4: And in what impacts did that church service have on you? 235 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 5: I had what at best can be described as like 236 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 5: a spiritual experience. I'd been I'd been approaching religion as 237 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 5: an intellectual exercise up until that point. Does that make sense? 238 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 5: Is that rational? But I had what I would call 239 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 5: religious experience there, and it quite overwhelmed me. 240 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 2: Now, Ian Wilkinson was sitting in the body of the 241 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 2: court with some of his family members and the Patterson 242 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 2: family members. As we've seen over what is now the 243 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 2: six weeks of this trial, there. 244 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 3: Was about a dozen of them there today, Penny, and 245 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 3: I would say half of them spent a majority of 246 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 3: Aaron Patterson's evidence today looking straight ahead or looking at 247 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 3: the ground. A couple of them also had their eyes closed. 248 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:00,199 Speaker 3: It was only I would say less than half of 249 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 3: them had actually turned around and had to look to 250 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 3: their left to see Aaron Patterson. 251 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, certainly, at some points I saw during this part 252 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,319 Speaker 2: of the evidence Ian Wilkinson looking certainly what it looked 253 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 2: like towards Aaron Patterson in the witness box. He had 254 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 2: his arms crossed, his legs crossed, his arms around himself, 255 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 2: which he has sort of sat in that position many 256 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:19,599 Speaker 2: times in the court before. But he did seem to 257 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 2: be watching the witness box and looking at her the 258 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 2: same way he. 259 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: Has with other witnesses as well. 260 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 2: While while he was sort of being mentioned for the 261 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 2: first time in this evidence and as part of going 262 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 2: through kind of the trajectory of Simon and Aaron Patterson's relationship, 263 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 2: Colin Mandy sc asked his client a little bit about 264 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 2: their wedding now. She said they got married in karen Burr, 265 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 2: and he particularly asked her where her parents were at 266 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 2: that time. 267 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 3: She recalled that they were in Russia on a train 268 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 3: she believed was a holiday and it was in fact, 269 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 3: one of Simon Patterson's cousins, David, she recalled, who walked 270 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 3: her down the aisle on that occasion. She also recalled 271 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 3: that they had the wedding at a different church than 272 00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 3: where Ian was a pastor because they wanted him to 273 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 3: and his wife to be able to come and enjoy 274 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 3: the day rather than running around and doing tasks. And 275 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 3: she recalled that Don and Gail had also booked a 276 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 3: really large marquee and outdoor marquee in a vacant paddock 277 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 3: that they'd been able to use for the day, and 278 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:16,680 Speaker 3: they paid for a buffet of food. That was a 279 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 3: memory she. 280 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 2: Also shared with the jury, Yeah, and that this sort 281 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 2: of reception was very close to where they were living 282 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 2: at the time, and it was it was quite local, 283 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:25,199 Speaker 2: and she did mention that she wanted people to kind 284 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 2: of be relaxed and enjoy this particular day and that 285 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 2: it was quite a large occasion. But then she was 286 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 2: sort of taken to the next part of her and 287 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:37,319 Speaker 2: Simon's relationship and the fact that they wanted to have children. 288 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 2: Her barrister took her through what her age was about 289 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:41,959 Speaker 2: this time. She said it was about thirty three, and 290 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 2: she said they both kind of wanted to settle down 291 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 2: and she was quite keen to have children, and at 292 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 2: this time they were actually based in Wa. So she 293 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 2: explained that initially after this wedding that had a long 294 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 2: weekend in a Linda, which is in a part of Victoria, 295 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 2: but that they really wanted to go on a big 296 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 2: trip around Australia as their honeymoon. 297 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 3: She recalled Penny that they sold up everything. She even 298 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 3: recalled that they sold Simon's car to his parents and 299 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 3: essentially Yeh got rid of everything, packed up and moved 300 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 3: over to Perth. And she recalled that Simon got a 301 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 3: job for a while and they were renting a really 302 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 3: small flat and that's when she gave birth to her 303 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 3: first son, and that was an experience she said, was 304 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 3: really traumatic. And that was the first time that I 305 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 3: saw Aaron Patterson on the stand today. Welling up with 306 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 3: tears seemed to be a difficult thing for her to 307 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 3: speak about, and she paused before some of her answers 308 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 3: at this point, and I could see her her fingers 309 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 3: sort of clenched together. A lot of her evidence today. 310 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 3: We saw her hands moving around as she was speaking, 311 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 3: and she was nodding as Colin Mandy was asking questions. 312 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 3: But at this point I did see her. She was 313 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 3: sitting with her with her hands and fingers sort of 314 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 3: I guess, moving around as she was slowly answering these questions. 315 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 2: And she was as you mentioned this time, where which 316 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 2: I also felt that this was the most emotional I 317 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 2: saw her in her evidence today. And while she wasn't 318 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 2: outwardly crying down tears down her face, it was this 319 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 2: sort of choked element in her voice that began to waver, 320 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 2: particularly on the details which the listeners will hear in 321 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 2: a moment through the evidence regarding the way her son 322 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 2: came into the world and the details of that birth. 323 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 2: So we'll take you to that now again. This is 324 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 2: Colin Mandy and Aaron Patterson as part of her evidence 325 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 2: when he was questioning her. 326 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: It's voiced by actors. 327 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 4: How was his birth? How well were you after giving birth? 328 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 5: His birth was very traumatic for what reason? It went 329 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 5: for a very long time. And then they tried to 330 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 5: get him out with four steps and he wouldn't come out, 331 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 5: and he started to go into distress and they lost 332 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 5: his heartbeat, so they did an emergency cesarean and got 333 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 5: him out quickly. 334 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 4: Okay. Now, as a result of that cesarean, you had 335 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 4: to stay in hospital for a few days. 336 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, it was sixteen years ago, so I'm not sure 337 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 5: exactly how long, but it was probably roughly a week 338 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 5: that I was in He was in neonatal ICU for 339 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 5: a while to start with. 340 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 4: And how was it that you ended up leaving hospital? 341 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 5: So the baby had got to a point where they 342 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 5: were happy to discharge him. He was off oxygen, he 343 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 5: was off the feeding tube, and they said he could 344 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 5: be discharged to go home with Simon, but they wanted 345 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 5: me to stay because of they didn't think I had 346 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 5: healed quite well enough from the surgery, and they wanted 347 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 5: me to stay, and I wanted to go with him. 348 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 5: So I remember having a conversation with Simon about it, 349 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 5: and I was really upset and I said, I don't 350 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 5: want to stay here by myself. I want to go 351 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 5: home with him, and Simon said to me, you can 352 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 5: just do it, just let's just leave. 353 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 4: Did that involve you discharging yourself against medical advice? 354 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: Yep, it did. 355 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 2: We'll be back after this with a little more of 356 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 2: Aaron Patterson's evidence. 357 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 4: Yeah. 358 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 3: So the next topic that the jury were taken through 359 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 3: from the accused woman was the relationship with John and 360 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 3: Gale at that time, and she was explaining that it 361 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 3: was only a few weeks after their son was born 362 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 3: that they actually came over to help. And she was 363 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 3: recalling again the fact that they were renting this really 364 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 3: tiny little flat and so what they did is it's 365 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 3: not long after Don and Gale arrived they rented an 366 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 3: Airbnb and then for a few weeks went and stayed 367 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:15,920 Speaker 3: together at a bigger apartment. 368 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, so she sort of said in her evidence it 369 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 2: was this really nice house down south in Western Australia 370 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 2: while they were living in Perthin, that they'd all gone 371 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 2: and stayed for a week together, being Don and Gail, 372 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 2: Simon and Aaron and the newborn baby at this time. 373 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 2: And she spoke about through her evidence how she was 374 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 2: a new mum and she was sort of asked about 375 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 2: what the relationship was like with Don and Gale. She 376 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 2: sort of said that they were also the first people 377 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 2: who'd come over to visit them with this new baby. 378 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 3: And she said Penny that she felt like she was 379 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:45,360 Speaker 3: a little bit out of her depth when she had 380 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 3: this newborn baby. She didn't really know what to do. 381 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 3: This was all really new for her, and that's when 382 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 3: she began talking about how important she felt her relationship 383 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 3: with Gail Patterson was at the time and the help 384 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:56,360 Speaker 3: that she was providing. 385 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 2: Here's a little bit of what Aaron Patterson said during 386 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 2: her evidence while being questioned by Colin Mandy and how are. 387 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 4: You getting on with Don and Gaile during that week? 388 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 5: I remember being really relieved that Gail was there because 389 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 5: I felt really out of my depth. I had no 390 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:12,199 Speaker 5: idea what to do with a baby, and I was 391 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 5: not confident. She was really supportive and gentle and patient 392 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:16,399 Speaker 5: with me. 393 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 4: Did she give you advice? 394 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 5: She did? What about about helping him settle after a feed, 395 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 5: about trying to interpret his cries? And she gave me 396 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,199 Speaker 5: good advice about just relax and enjoy it. You know, 397 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,360 Speaker 5: you don't have to stick to this timetable, this schedule. 398 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 5: Just relax and enjoy your baby. 399 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 2: And after this, Colin Mandy took Aaron Patterson to another 400 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 2: element and sort of time in her life with her 401 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 2: newborn baby and with Simon Patterson about a big trip 402 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 2: they took around Australia, and she sort of explained to 403 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 2: the jury that this really began not long after the 404 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 2: son being born. He was only around three months old 405 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 2: when they took off with this miss and patrol that 406 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 2: they bought over with them and on this big adventure 407 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 2: around the country. 408 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:00,400 Speaker 3: She said they really wanted to travel across the top 409 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 3: of Australia, and so their travels began. She explained that 410 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 3: in the beginning it was quite easy with her son. 411 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 3: He was really really tiny and really slept all the time, 412 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 3: and she even sort of got a little bit jovial 413 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,880 Speaker 3: as she expressed a memory where she remembered joking about 414 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 3: the fact that her son slept so much she'd forgotten 415 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 3: about the color of his eyes. But as they traversed 416 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 3: the top of Australia and got across and down to Townsville, 417 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 3: she felt things were starting to change. And she said 418 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 3: her young son was now trying to stand up, and 419 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,400 Speaker 3: he was crawling and moving around, and things got quite 420 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 3: difficult at that point for her. 421 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, so she explained it. 422 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 2: Initially this trip they'd sort of gone up to the 423 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 2: top of the Northern Territory. They'd ended up coming through 424 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 2: Tenant Creek and all the way across to Queensland, up 425 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 2: to Cannes, up to Townsville. 426 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 1: That this was really quite a long trip. 427 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 2: Where they spoke about meeting up with other people as well, 428 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 2: friends along the way, but that when she'd got to 429 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 2: this point, this is where things really started to change. 430 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 2: And here's a little bit of what Aaron Patterson told 431 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:57,880 Speaker 2: the court while being questioned by her barrister. 432 00:19:58,040 --> 00:19:59,360 Speaker 1: It's no one's real voice. 433 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 4: About what month, approximately did you end up in Townsville. 434 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 5: It would have been around November oh nine. 435 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 4: And how are you feeling in November of two thousand 436 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 4: and nine in terms of all that travel that you 437 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 4: had been doing. 438 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 5: It had been a good holiday, but I'd had enough. 439 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 5: I wanted to sleep in a real bed, and it 440 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,120 Speaker 5: was getting harder to camp with our son. Like when 441 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 5: we started off, he was three months old, he slept 442 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 5: a lot. I remember joking at the time that I 443 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,679 Speaker 5: couldn't remember his eye color because his eyes were never open. 444 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 1: Like he slept a lot. 445 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 5: So when we first started traveling, you know, we could 446 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,159 Speaker 5: drive our long drives of these three hour naps that 447 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 5: he had. But by November he was sitting up and 448 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 5: crawling and trying to stand and not sleeping as much, 449 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 5: and it was a lot harder. 450 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 1: I'd had a gut full. 451 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 4: Did you and Simon talk about that? 452 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, yeah we did. 453 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:49,199 Speaker 4: And what was the agreement you came to. 454 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 5: The agreement we came to was that I flew back 455 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 5: to Perth and Simon followed with the baby in the patrol. 456 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,159 Speaker 4: And how long did it take Simon to get back 457 00:20:58,200 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 4: to both? 458 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,880 Speaker 5: I think it was about a week five to seven 459 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 5: days somewhere around there. 460 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 4: When you got back to Berth and when Simon got 461 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 4: back to Birth. So the two of you were together 462 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 4: in Perth. Did something about your living arrangements change then? 463 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 5: Yeah, it did. When I got back to Perth, I 464 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,439 Speaker 5: hired I rented a little cottage for me and the 465 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,719 Speaker 5: baby to live in, and Simon rented an on site 466 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 5: caravan close by. 467 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 4: We've heard evidence that there were periods of separation. Was 468 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 4: this one of them? 469 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, it was the first one. 470 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,719 Speaker 3: It was explained by Aaron Patterson that by the time 471 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 3: they sort of all returned back to Perth, that, as 472 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 3: she said, she was living in this little cottage, Simon 473 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 3: was living in the caravan. But she said this period 474 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 3: of separation didn't last too long, that sort of by the. 475 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 2: January of the next year they were back together. So 476 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:46,439 Speaker 2: it was kind of just a few months. 477 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. She said that was the first separation that she 478 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 3: could recall between the pair, but she did agree when 479 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 3: question by her defense barrister that they continued to split 480 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 3: up and get back together again over a number of 481 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 3: years until ultimately they separated permanently around twenty fifteen. 482 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it was when she was being asked about 483 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 2: this a number of times she was sort of asked 484 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,360 Speaker 2: about what was the tension in the relationship, and. 485 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 1: She described that it was mostly that she and Simon. 486 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,479 Speaker 2: That they couldn't communicate very well, was her evidence, but 487 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 2: that they didn't disagree on how they should parent their son. 488 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 2: And she said something toward the end of her evidence 489 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,400 Speaker 2: on this day as to the fact that what they 490 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 2: had were adult problems, not for a child, and that 491 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 2: she felt, at least at that point that things when 492 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 2: this baby was little were fairly cohesive. 493 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:34,719 Speaker 1: On wanting to parent him in the same direction. 494 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,199 Speaker 3: She said that she didn't recall any conflict at that 495 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 3: stage when it came to parenting their son, and she 496 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 3: also agreed that continued that way for a number of years. 497 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 3: But this was another time Penny where she did become 498 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,360 Speaker 3: quite emotional again when she was asking about how they 499 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 3: were co parenting their son. We know their daughter didn't 500 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 3: come along for a few years later, and so a 501 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,680 Speaker 3: lot of those questions were related to their firstborn son. 502 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 3: But yeah, she started to well up again and appeared 503 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 3: a little bit uncomfortable in the docks. Very personal questions, 504 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 3: as we know, and that's where the evidence was wrapped 505 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 3: up for today. We expect her to be on the 506 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 3: stand again tomorrow and I guess we'll wait and see 507 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 3: what the rest of the week looks like. 508 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, and just before we finished with the listeners, people 509 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 2: might be wondering how we got to this point. As 510 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,119 Speaker 2: you mentioned earlier, before Aaron Patterson was called by her 511 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 2: defense barrister as their first witness that we heard from 512 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 2: the Crown prosecutor we close our case, which is something 513 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 2: that's formally said by the prosecution. And the last person 514 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 2: on the stand before this was Stephen Eppingstall, the lead 515 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 2: detective in the case. His evidence went across five days. 516 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 2: The very end of it came just before Aaron Patterson 517 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 2: took the stand, and I do just want to take 518 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 2: the listeners to a little bit of some messages that 519 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:42,360 Speaker 2: he was sort of shown in the very last bit 520 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:43,959 Speaker 2: of his evidence when he was being re examined by 521 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 2: the prosecution. Now, these were messages that the court was 522 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 2: shown where it was said to be Aaron Patterson and 523 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 2: Gail Patterson texting back and forth, and in them she 524 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 2: mentioned Aaron Patterson that Heather had confirmed for Saturday, the 525 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,160 Speaker 2: twenty ninth of July, is that that was good for. 526 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:00,679 Speaker 1: Them to come to lunch home, hopefully it is for 527 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: you too, and that. 528 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 2: There had come a reply from Gail, yes, good for us, 529 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,360 Speaker 2: and that basically less than a minute later there'd been 530 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,400 Speaker 2: this response great thank you from Erin. And these text 531 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 2: messages were in the lead up to the fatal lunch 532 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 2: that was heard at Aaron Patterson's home. And there was 533 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 2: also some agreed facts that were read to the jury. 534 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 2: Now the jury was told there to take these as 535 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,119 Speaker 2: being sort of agreed between the accused and the prosecution, 536 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 2: and there was a number of those read out, but 537 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 2: two of them being that Aaron Patterson agrees as the 538 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 2: prosecutors also say that there was some fingerprints that showed 539 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 2: sort of three of her finger imprints taken from the 540 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 2: Sunbeam dehydrator that was retrieved from the Kunwara transfer station 541 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 2: following the lunch, and that also when they were talking 542 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 2: about simcard evidence, there was a bit read out to 543 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 2: the jury regarding excepting that when they have heard about 544 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 2: some evidence regarding a simcard being taken in and out 545 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 2: of a phone on a particular date during a search 546 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 2: at Aaron Patterson's home, that there was sort of three 547 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 2: different options as to how that could have happened. That 548 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,120 Speaker 2: the SIM card had been removed, that the battery had 549 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,400 Speaker 2: been removed from the handset without it being turned off, 550 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 2: or that the handset had somehow become damaged in such 551 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,439 Speaker 2: a way that it was no longer connecting properly. But 552 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 2: as you mentioned, Aaron Patterson were expecting to be back 553 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 2: on the stand and we'll bring the listeners more when 554 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 2: her evidence and any other evidence continues. Thank you for 555 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 2: listening to this episode of Say Grace. Please press the 556 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 2: follow button in your app to get our next episodes 557 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 2: as soon as we publish. 558 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 3: For more reporting on the case, check out the Age 559 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 3: of nine News in your browser or app store. 560 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 2: We'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land 561 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 2: that this podcast was recorded on and wherever you're listening 562 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 2: to it now. Say Grace is created and hosted by 563 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 2: me Penelope Lesh and me Erin Pearson. 564 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,360 Speaker 1: This podcast is produced by Genevieve Rule.