S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
S1: This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Wednesday,
S1: February 5th. Okay, so first off, a personal admission to
S1: all the parents and carers out there who've ever wondered
S1: if they've let the kids in their life watched too
S1: many hours of screen time? I may or may not
S1: have said to my three kids, only half jokingly, over
S1: the school holidays, Netflix is your parent now. I mean,
S1: it's hard to keep your kids off screens, right? Especially
S1: when you've got so many demands on your time. But
S1: what impact does screen time have on really young kids,
S1: especially those who are five and under? Today, technology editor
S1: David Swan on where to draw the line so we
S1: can keep our kids safe, and why the impact on
S1: young kids has been perhaps left out of the national conversation. So, David,
S1: you have a ten month old son, and I really
S1: want you to tell me, was he actually the reason
S1: that you wrote your latest piece about how much screen
S1: time is too much for little kids? I mean, is
S1: this something that you are already worried about?
S2: Yeah. He was. I am about to go on leave
S2: for four months to go into full time dad mode,
S2: which I'm very excited about, but a little intimidated by
S2: it as well. I think, um, you know, I hang
S2: out with him a lot, but it's a different prospect
S2: of looking after him full time for for four months, obviously,
S2: and all the responsibilities that come with that and something
S2: that me and my wife have discussed is when do
S2: we start introducing screen time? And I think that's a
S2: conversation that obviously a lot of parents would have. And
S2: the conclusion that we've sort of come to is that
S2: we'd be looking at bringing in screen time a little
S2: bit from, uh, from once he's one onwards, as you said,
S2: he's ten months. So in a couple of couple of months,
S2: maybe introducing a little bit of Bluey, a little bit
S2: of screen time.
S3: Mom. Whiskey's gone. What? She yelled at uncle Red. She
S3: said the wedding's off. Then she drove away really fast.
S4: Oh, boy.
S2: And I think for me, that just feels like it's
S2: going to take a little bit of the load off.
S2: When those days can can feel really long. Obviously, they're
S2: magical and wonderful, but days with with little ones can
S2: sometimes feel long. So I think maybe you need options
S2: where you can have them. So, um, yeah, I thought,
S2: I have no idea. I mean, people have asked me,
S2: friends and colleagues, assuming that I might be the expert
S2: when it comes to screen time and kids and teenagers,
S2: but I think it's been quite underreported just for for babies,
S2: toddlers and little ones. The impact of screen time and technology.
S1: Okay, so let's get down to what we all want
S1: to know, because I know I have long felt guilty, actually,
S1: for years that I've not pinned down. You know how
S1: much screen time is too much. And, you know, maybe
S1: I've even damaged my kids by letting them have too much.
S1: So you've actually got the facts. How many episodes of
S1: Bluey are too many?
S2: I do have the facts, and I'm always loath to
S2: give spoilers away for my stories because I want people
S2: to go and read them, obviously. But I can say
S2: that for toddlers between the ages of two and five,
S2: I spoke to Doctor Daniel Godziszewski, better known as Doctor Golly,
S2: who's a pediatrician. The average recommended amount of Bluey is
S2: six episodes per day. They go for about ten minutes each,
S2: so about an hour of screen time is is okay.
S3: What about the sign?
S5: Leave it in, Bluey. The wedding's off.
S3: What? But we're flower girls.
S2: I'd say to, like, just for anyone that goes over that.
S2: I wouldn't want anyone to. To feel guilty about that.
S2: For example, you know, some some weeks we might go
S2: over the recommended amount of drinks for the Surgeon General recommends,
S2: for recommends, for example. But obviously I'm not a health
S2: expert or a doctor. But I would say I think
S2: my philosophy at least, is people do what they need
S2: to do to get by. And if that means a
S2: couple of extra episodes of Bluey, for example, I don't
S2: think it's going to be the end of the world,
S2: for example. So I just wouldn't want to shame anyone
S2: or anyone to feel guilty for going over the limit.
S2: Because as a dad, already I'm learning. Sometimes you just
S2: need to do what you need to do to get by.
S1: I mean, you really do. I'm very happy to hear
S1: that message of non shaming. And I'm also glad you
S1: weren't there for the first ten years of my parenting.
S1: But what happens once this screen time is actually exceeded?
S1: Because according to recent research, the vast majority of Australian
S1: kids are having way more screen time daily than the
S1: experts recommend. Right?
S2: Yeah. That's right. So I got some research from the
S2: Australian Institute of Family Studies that found, um, less than
S2: a quarter of preschoolers and just 15% of 5 to
S2: 12 year olds Actually meet that screen time guidelines. So
S2: the vast, vast majority of of kids are getting more
S2: screen time than that sort of one hour. That is
S2: recommended at least for 2 to 5 year olds. The
S2: research that was conducted over the past couple of years
S2: has found negative outcomes tied to excessive screen time. I
S2: know kids who are toddlers, and for example, their default
S2: is to say bluey bluey, and to have Bluey be
S2: put on rather than wanting to hang out with their
S2: friends their age, for example. So I think just often
S2: it can be a helpful crutch for parents. But there
S2: are that does come at a cost, where then for kids,
S2: they can be less interested in the world around them
S2: and less interested in social interactions, for example, or going
S2: outside and playing. And then therefore those health impacts can
S2: be weight gain, can be, um, you know, psychological and
S2: social as well. So, um, yeah, not to freak it out,
S2: but I think some of those outcomes, um, can can
S2: be real and should be at least, um, thought about.
S1: And it's so important to me and new, I think
S1: that your piece was really focusing on the impact of
S1: kids who are five and under, because we do talk
S1: a lot about teenagers and their use of social media
S1: and the impact this has on them. So do you
S1: think the under fives are a bit of a forgotten
S1: group in this space? Like our parents with little kids
S1: telling you that they've been feeling in the dark about
S1: what they should be doing with the kids that age.
S2: Yeah, absolutely. So I think the debate over the social
S2: media ban for young people over the past year or
S2: so has really focused on that sort of teenage, um,
S2: age range where we've been talking about 13 year olds,
S2: 15 year olds, 18 year olds. What's the impact of
S2: social media? Young kids get left out of the conversation,
S2: and they haven't really been talked about in the same way.
S2: And yet these are real things to think about. You know,
S2: parents using social media to to put photos of their
S2: kids up, for example, when they're babies or young people.
S2: It's like, what about the impact of of privacy on
S2: a newborn, for example. It's something that gets talked about
S2: a little bit on an ad hoc sense, but we
S2: haven't collectively had that conversation like we have had with
S2: teenagers in social media and teenagers and smartphones, for example,
S2: because parents just often feel in the dark with this stuff,
S2: like a lot of things.
S1: And you spoke to an expert who said that, you know,
S1: with regards to that point about sharing adorable baby photos
S1: on social media, that actually that can make children more
S1: vulnerable to identity theft or privacy breaches. So is that
S1: an issue even for little kids? Like, how does that
S1: play out?
S2: Yeah, totally. And that was sort of, um, a bit
S2: of a worrying aspect of the conversation, I guess, is
S2: I think and this is where I sort of came
S2: into it as a new dad was I knew that
S2: I didn't want to be blasting out photos of my
S2: newborn onto my public profile. And then, for example, you know,
S2: if I get in a fight with a billionaire, as
S2: I did a couple of weeks ago, as I talked
S2: about on this podcast previously, or if anyone has a
S2: beef with me, I don't want them then seeing a
S2: photo of my baby and then linking that to who
S2: I am. And it just it opens up a whole
S2: can of worms. So I used an app as a
S2: new dad called Tinybeans, which lets you every day share
S2: photos and videos of your baby with just people you've chosen.
S2: So I've got about 10 or 15 people. It's close
S2: family members and friends, and then they can check every
S2: day if they want to and see photos of a newborn,
S2: rather than me going to Instagram and posting to thousands
S2: of followers or to the public. And when I interviewed
S2: the CEO of Tinybeans, she was saying that one of
S2: the aspects of the app is just the aspect of
S2: privacy and security. And so you're not showing the world
S2: where your baby lives, what they look like, or this
S2: sort of stuff. And I think everyone has a right
S2: to privacy. And if you're a newborn or a toddler,
S2: for example, you don't get a say in your photo
S2: being blasted out there. So I just I like the
S2: idea of keeping things private until they're old enough to
S2: have a say about where their photos and their digital
S2: identity goes.
S1: We'll be right back. Okay, so, David, I really want
S1: to get into what our government has been trying to
S1: do in this space because really, it has actually been
S1: something of a world leader. At the end of last year,
S1: the government said it would bring in legislation banning social
S1: media for teenagers under 16. It's done that. It's passed
S1: that bill. So tell us what actually prompted that ban
S1: and how has this become such a massive issue?
S2: It was interesting for me. It felt a bit like
S2: 20 years too late. It's like Facebook was invented 20
S2: years ago. And then suddenly last year, it became a
S2: really high intensity debate over the health impacts of social
S2: media on young people.
S6: After the Senate passed historic world first laws banning children
S6: from social media under 16.
S7: The days of scrolling social media are numbered. Legislation to
S7: ban children from Snapchat, TikTok, Facebook, Reddit, Instagram and media.
S8: Platforms to face fines of up to $50 million if
S8: they don't comply. X owner Elon Musk.
S2: We've started talking about it in the same sentence as
S2: fast food as cigarettes, for example. It's just funny to
S2: me that it's taken 20 years to get to this
S2: point where we're like, oh, wait a second, maybe this
S2: thing has negative impacts on young people when we've been
S2: grappling with that for the last 20 years. So very
S2: fascinating to me that it all came to a head
S2: at once last year. But you're right, in terms of
S2: Australia has literally been world leading in this regard. Um,
S2: this hasn't been successfully implemented anywhere tonight.
S9: Australia taking an unprecedented step, becoming the first country in
S9: the world to ban the use of social.
S10: Media to that fascinating development in Australia after its Senate
S10: approved the world's strictest laws. The ban, which will not.
S2: My prediction is that other countries will likely follow suit.
S2: I think, um, this will be enacted by the end
S2: of this year. So we'll have a clearer idea, you know,
S2: in about 12 months time if this is working or not.
S2: But I think, you know, it's been critiqued a lot,
S2: but I think good on them for trying something. The
S2: impact is real when it comes to teenagers and young people. Um,
S2: there are positives and negatives, obviously, but I think a
S2: lot of those negative impacts are pretty clear on on
S2: teenagers in particular, you know, smartphone addictions, mental health issues
S2: related to, you know, cyberbullying and things like that. So
S2: I think a lot of these things are pretty clear.
S2: But we'll have a clearer idea of if this this
S2: ban works or not, um, in about 12 months time.
S1: Because the ban actually won't come into place until what?
S1: All the details are nutted out. So can you briefly
S1: tell us, I guess, how much is still left to do?
S1: Like how many obstacles are there before this ban is
S1: actually enacted?
S2: A lot is still left to do. The responsibility will
S2: lie with the Esafety Commissioner. There are lots of different
S2: opinions on how it will be implemented on tech companies
S2: themselves have a particular wish compared to parents and others
S2: of you know, what's the easiest way to do this?
S2: Are there workarounds and will kids find a way to
S2: to get around it, for example. But they have 12
S2: months and like the Esafety commissioner has said, we're not
S2: aiming for perfection here. There likely will be a way
S2: for kids to really get around it if they if
S2: they use a VPN or if they try. But let's
S2: have a crack. And if it maybe, you know, helps 10%
S2: helps 50%, then it's like awesome.
S1: Okay, so we're still a year out, at least from
S1: when this social media ban for under 16 is going
S1: to come into effect. But I think another aspect in
S1: your piece that is so important is that you spoke
S1: to a pediatrician who has really advocated that parents shouldn't
S1: actually demonize technology, right? You know, like screens and technology,
S1: they can actually be beneficial to kids if they're used
S1: in a particular way. So can you tell me about that?
S1: Because I think that would be very reassuring. Maybe for parents.
S2: Yeah, absolutely. That was, um, Doctor Ghaly, his message around moderation,
S2: where I think it would be easy to demonize, um,
S2: tech for kids and say, let's ban all screens. Um,
S2: but he says, look, you know, things like FaceTime, for example. Um,
S2: I know that my son, for example, his grandparents live
S2: in Sydney. And so for him to be able to
S2: FaceTime them, if he didn't have that, then he would
S2: see them every few months and it would be, um,
S2: pretty rare. Whereas he gets to talk to them every
S2: couple of days. And if we're black and white about
S2: it and saying no screens at all, he wouldn't get
S2: to talk to them. So I think, you know, for
S2: my son, it's been been incredibly important.
S1: And so, David, on that point, do you actually think
S1: that the government's social media ban will achieve this balance of,
S1: you know, preserving the benefits of social media while limiting
S1: its dangers?
S2: I hope so. I'm an optimist in general, but I'm
S2: optimistic here specifically to I think what this has done
S2: is it's at the very minimum, kicked off a very
S2: productive conversation Around pros and cons of social media. As
S2: I said, I think it's a conversation we should have
S2: had 20 years ago. What I'd like to see with
S2: the conversation around social media and young people is more
S2: talk of the positives, too. I know there are underrepresented
S2: kids who you know might be LGBTQ. Plus they might
S2: be racially diverse, for example. And often kids can find
S2: their communities online. Um, they might not have people that
S2: look like them or at school or in their class,
S2: so maybe they find their tribe online. So I'd like
S2: to see more of the conversation focused around some of
S2: the positives of social media for young people to I
S2: think that nuance sometimes gets lost. So more of that
S2: would be good, but we have 12 months to to
S2: still sort it out and see what happens. Yeah. So
S2: it'll be very much. Watch this space I know I
S2: will be.
S1: Well, I think I speak for a lot of parents
S1: when I say, thank you so much for getting some
S1: actual answers in this space. You know, it can be
S1: so be so stressful. So thank you so much David,
S1: for your time.
S2: No worries. I've loved being on. I always enjoy the chat,
S2: so thanks for having me.
S1: Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Julia Carcasole.
S1: Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Our head of audio
S1: is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is a production of
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S1: in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes.
S1: I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. This is the morning edition. Thanks
S1: for listening.