1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:05,320 S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. 2 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:10,200 S1: This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Seelinger Morris. It's Tuesday, 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:17,840 S1: December 9th. Parents across the country have been wringing their 4 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:21,480 S1: hands for months about how the social media ban will work, 5 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:25,959 S1: and more so if it will work. Teenagers are already 6 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:29,040 S1: planning ways to get around the ban, like 13 year 7 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:30,760 S1: old Ariel from Sydney. 8 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:33,280 S2: I used Snapchat a lot. It's what I used to 9 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,800 S2: like communicate with all my friends. And to be honest, 10 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:40,839 S2: I'm planning on still using Snapchat. I feel like the 11 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:42,879 S2: ban won't do much and I feel like I can 12 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:43,880 S2: find a way around it. 13 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:47,680 S1: Conner, a 12 year old also from New South Wales, 14 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:51,920 S1: said he was still able to play popular gaming platform Roblox. 15 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:55,080 S3: He had to scan the place if he wanted to 16 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,760 S3: access the chat to talk to people on the game, 17 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:05,050 S3: and it said that you're 15 or older and it 18 00:01:05,090 --> 00:01:06,690 S3: allowed me to use the chat. 19 00:01:07,490 --> 00:01:10,890 S1: So what exactly does the band cover and how will 20 00:01:10,890 --> 00:01:15,690 S1: it be enforced? Today, reporter Bronte Gosling on the main 21 00:01:15,690 --> 00:01:19,090 S1: methods children plan on using to circumvent what the federal 22 00:01:19,090 --> 00:01:23,450 S1: government has called a world leading ban, and why most 23 00:01:23,450 --> 00:01:35,850 S1: Australian parents say they won't enforce it. So, Bronte, let's 24 00:01:35,850 --> 00:01:38,610 S1: start with the basics. What are under 16 seconds actually 25 00:01:38,650 --> 00:01:40,330 S1: going to see when they try to log on to 26 00:01:40,370 --> 00:01:42,330 S1: their social media accounts on Wednesday? 27 00:01:42,730 --> 00:01:47,170 S4: So that's a great question, Sam. We have some idea, 28 00:01:47,170 --> 00:01:50,410 S4: but not a whole picture. So the legislation actually comes 29 00:01:50,410 --> 00:01:53,330 S4: into effect on December 10th. So that means that tech 30 00:01:53,330 --> 00:01:57,690 S4: giants need to have already implemented reasonable steps to prevent 31 00:01:57,730 --> 00:02:01,770 S4: under 16 seconds from accessing existing accounts or creating new 32 00:02:01,770 --> 00:02:04,900 S4: ones before then, so that by the time the clock 33 00:02:04,900 --> 00:02:10,140 S4: strikes midnight on Wednesday morning, they're already compliant with the law. 34 00:02:10,620 --> 00:02:14,500 S4: So some platforms, such as Meta's Instagram, have actually been 35 00:02:14,500 --> 00:02:18,380 S4: suspending users they have identified to be under 16 since 36 00:02:18,380 --> 00:02:19,340 S4: late November. 37 00:02:19,820 --> 00:02:23,340 S5: Kids like me already have brands, audiences, all that. This 38 00:02:23,340 --> 00:02:26,620 S5: ban is literally cutting off our income and our opportunities. 39 00:02:26,660 --> 00:02:31,299 S6: As someone who was personally bullied to the absolute brink. 40 00:02:31,500 --> 00:02:33,580 S6: I think this is a step in the right direction. 41 00:02:33,700 --> 00:02:37,260 S7: I think banning teenagers from social media is going to 42 00:02:37,300 --> 00:02:37,940 S7: stop them. 43 00:02:38,060 --> 00:02:39,700 S8: You're not mad about the social media ban because when 44 00:02:39,700 --> 00:02:41,460 S8: I was that age we had Kik. I don't know 45 00:02:41,460 --> 00:02:44,620 S8: if you guys remember Kik, but that place was lawless. Hello, 46 00:02:44,900 --> 00:02:46,260 S8: rest of the world, it's James. 47 00:02:46,260 --> 00:02:47,620 S9: I don't know if you guys can hear me or 48 00:02:47,660 --> 00:02:49,020 S9: see me or if this is even gonna work. I 49 00:02:49,020 --> 00:02:50,780 S9: think I may have found a loophole. 50 00:02:52,419 --> 00:02:55,100 S4: I was speaking with a 13 year old girl, Ariel, 51 00:02:55,139 --> 00:02:58,260 S4: who's from Sydney, and she had her account suspended on 52 00:02:58,260 --> 00:03:01,660 S4: November 25th. And so what she showed me was that 53 00:03:01,660 --> 00:03:05,590 S4: when she opened up her Instagram app, a notification popped 54 00:03:05,590 --> 00:03:08,550 S4: up and it said that her account had been suspended 55 00:03:08,550 --> 00:03:11,470 S4: and that it wasn't visible to other people on Instagram 56 00:03:11,470 --> 00:03:14,750 S4: at that moment, and that she can't actually use her account. 57 00:03:14,750 --> 00:03:17,030 S4: So the only thing that she could actually do was 58 00:03:17,030 --> 00:03:20,230 S4: click a button that said she could download a copy 59 00:03:20,230 --> 00:03:22,510 S4: of what she had shared on the platform to her 60 00:03:22,510 --> 00:03:25,710 S4: local device, and then she could click an appeal button. 61 00:03:25,750 --> 00:03:27,630 S4: Then it asked her to submit a photo of her 62 00:03:27,630 --> 00:03:30,350 S4: government ID, and it told her that the copy that 63 00:03:30,350 --> 00:03:32,989 S4: they have taken of her ID would be deleted from 64 00:03:32,990 --> 00:03:39,350 S4: the platform within 30 days. So most platforms, including TikTok, 65 00:03:39,350 --> 00:03:42,710 S4: will be implementing something like that, where people they have 66 00:03:42,710 --> 00:03:46,150 S4: identified as under 16 can still really open the app, 67 00:03:46,150 --> 00:03:49,230 S4: but they just can't use it without supplying information such 68 00:03:49,230 --> 00:03:53,150 S4: as facial scans. Or in Snapchat's case, they're also implementing 69 00:03:53,150 --> 00:03:56,990 S4: a bank account verification aspect. And then in certain cases, 70 00:03:56,990 --> 00:04:00,430 S4: government IDs. But there's a lot we still don't know. 71 00:04:00,470 --> 00:04:05,550 S4: We don't know how Elon Musk's X formerly Twitter or Reddit, 72 00:04:05,550 --> 00:04:10,430 S4: will implement any age assurance technologies or methods because they've 73 00:04:10,430 --> 00:04:13,070 S4: not publicly confirmed that they will comply with the ban. 74 00:04:13,390 --> 00:04:16,510 S4: So they haven't actually issued guidance on how age verification 75 00:04:16,510 --> 00:04:20,229 S4: will work on their platforms. So these tech giants have 76 00:04:20,230 --> 00:04:25,229 S4: had about a year to get themselves together and figure 77 00:04:25,230 --> 00:04:28,990 S4: out how they're going to implement their reasonable steps to prevent, 78 00:04:29,029 --> 00:04:32,830 S4: under sixteens from having accounts. Um, some of them have 79 00:04:32,830 --> 00:04:36,790 S4: been very communicative about how that's going to unfold, and 80 00:04:36,790 --> 00:04:41,510 S4: others have been resistant to providing any information to the 81 00:04:41,510 --> 00:04:45,070 S4: public in saying that there were some platforms that were 82 00:04:45,070 --> 00:04:47,190 S4: only notified a few weeks ago that they were going 83 00:04:47,190 --> 00:04:49,790 S4: to be included in the ban, and that was Kik 84 00:04:49,790 --> 00:04:52,990 S4: and Twitch. Um, and they have been very vocal about 85 00:04:52,990 --> 00:04:56,870 S4: how they are going to comply with the legislation, but 86 00:04:56,910 --> 00:05:00,989 S4: less forthcoming about what that's going to look like from them. 87 00:05:01,029 --> 00:05:02,070 S4: Understandably so. 88 00:05:02,310 --> 00:05:06,279 S1: And so you've mentioned ex Reddit Instagram, TikTok. What other 89 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:08,240 S1: platforms will come under the ban? 90 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:12,160 S4: Yeah, so the list is wide reaching, but it's not 91 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:15,240 S4: as wide reaching as some parents probably would hope. Notably, 92 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:19,560 S4: Roblox is not included, though it has implemented age assurance 93 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,880 S4: methods since being called out. I think it was last 94 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:27,159 S4: month or the month before. Google's YouTube is of course, included, 95 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:31,160 S4: and so is Meta's Facebook and Threads, though Meta's Messenger 96 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,920 S4: and WhatsApp is not included in the ban. Kik is 97 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:39,400 S4: also included, as is Snapchat and Twitch. So Snapchat has 98 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,440 S4: said it will comply with the legislation, but it has 99 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:46,560 S4: also used every opportunity it can to vocalize its disagreement 100 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:50,239 S4: with the fact that it's been included. So Snapchat chief 101 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,800 S4: executive Evan Spiegel, who's actually married to Australia's very own 102 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,720 S4: Miranda Kerr, um, he spoke with our technology editor, David Swan, 103 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,800 S4: in September last year, and that was two months before 104 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:06,000 S4: the Online Safety Amendment Act had even passed in parliament. 105 00:06:06,610 --> 00:06:08,930 S4: Spiegel said that parents are the ones that are best 106 00:06:08,930 --> 00:06:11,810 S4: placed to manage their children's screen time, and he believes 107 00:06:11,810 --> 00:06:15,490 S4: that Snapchat is fundamentally different to TikTok and Instagram. He 108 00:06:15,490 --> 00:06:19,130 S4: doesn't actually call Snapchat a social media platform. He just 109 00:06:19,130 --> 00:06:22,210 S4: describes it as a place where friends can privately message 110 00:06:22,210 --> 00:06:26,930 S4: each other. YouTube. Meanwhile, they also disagree with the ban. Um, 111 00:06:27,050 --> 00:06:29,690 S4: they have confirmed that they will comply. They've said that 112 00:06:29,690 --> 00:06:33,690 S4: under 16 will automatically be signed out of and barred 113 00:06:33,690 --> 00:06:38,210 S4: from logging into accounts this week, meaning no subscriptions, likes, 114 00:06:38,210 --> 00:06:41,730 S4: playlists or default wellbeing tools such as Take a Break 115 00:06:41,730 --> 00:06:45,610 S4: and Bedtime Reminders will be able to be accessed by them. 116 00:06:45,610 --> 00:06:48,930 S4: And that is actually what YouTube takes issue with. They 117 00:06:48,930 --> 00:06:51,450 S4: say that the social media ban is a rushed regulation 118 00:06:51,450 --> 00:06:56,289 S4: that misunderstands how YouTube works, and because you can actually 119 00:06:56,330 --> 00:07:00,530 S4: publicly access YouTube's videos and anyone can watch that without 120 00:07:00,529 --> 00:07:03,890 S4: an account. And so YouTube's arguing that not being able 121 00:07:03,890 --> 00:07:07,170 S4: to have an account when you're under 16 is actually unsafe. 122 00:07:07,220 --> 00:07:09,300 S1: I just want to pipe up on behalf of the 123 00:07:09,300 --> 00:07:11,500 S1: parents who are listening. I love that you said that. 124 00:07:11,500 --> 00:07:15,260 S1: Snapchat chief executive Evan Spiegel thinks that parents are best 125 00:07:15,260 --> 00:07:18,580 S1: placed to manage their kids social media usage. I just 126 00:07:18,580 --> 00:07:20,940 S1: want to note, Bronte, you've just inspired me. I've quickly 127 00:07:20,940 --> 00:07:23,740 S1: done a Google. It appears that his kids are seven, 128 00:07:23,860 --> 00:07:26,500 S1: six and 19 months old. So I'm just going to 129 00:07:26,500 --> 00:07:28,900 S1: say on behalf of those whose kids are a bit older, um, 130 00:07:28,940 --> 00:07:32,460 S1: good luck to you when that time comes, Evan. And, uh, 131 00:07:32,460 --> 00:07:35,500 S1: onto my question, which is that, you know, age verification 132 00:07:35,500 --> 00:07:38,340 S1: seems to be the primary way that these platforms will 133 00:07:38,340 --> 00:07:40,260 S1: enforce the ban. So can you just tell us how 134 00:07:40,340 --> 00:07:41,980 S1: will that actually work? 135 00:07:42,020 --> 00:07:47,820 S4: Great question. So obviously there's been security concerns from parents 136 00:07:47,820 --> 00:07:52,700 S4: and teens and critics, etc.. Um, Prime Minister Anthony Albanese 137 00:07:52,860 --> 00:07:56,340 S4: hosed that down in November. He rejected claims that any 138 00:07:56,340 --> 00:08:00,780 S4: user information would be stolen because, of course, the most 139 00:08:00,780 --> 00:08:05,100 S4: accurate way to verify someone's age is by taking a 140 00:08:05,100 --> 00:08:10,190 S4: copy of their government issued identification Vacation document. So the 141 00:08:10,190 --> 00:08:14,950 S4: Esafety Commissioner strongly encourages social media providers to use Non-sensitive 142 00:08:14,950 --> 00:08:18,390 S4: personal information as much as possible because of these security 143 00:08:18,390 --> 00:08:23,150 S4: concerns in their regulatory guidelines. They call it a waterfall approach, 144 00:08:23,350 --> 00:08:26,910 S4: which is the least invasive, easiest age assurance method first, 145 00:08:26,910 --> 00:08:29,550 S4: and then we move on to the more complex technologies 146 00:08:29,550 --> 00:08:35,150 S4: and strategies. So usually the least invasive method is behavioural data. 147 00:08:35,630 --> 00:08:38,990 S4: That's the users activity. So is this account engaging with 148 00:08:38,990 --> 00:08:42,030 S4: content that people who are usually under 16, are they 149 00:08:42,030 --> 00:08:45,030 S4: engaging with that normally? What date of birth do they 150 00:08:45,030 --> 00:08:48,510 S4: have stated on their account? And interestingly, did they change 151 00:08:48,510 --> 00:08:51,429 S4: their date of birth to above the age of 16 152 00:08:52,350 --> 00:08:54,950 S4: a few weeks ago? Because that indicates that they're clearly 153 00:08:54,950 --> 00:09:00,270 S4: under 16 and then facial scans and government ID documentation. 154 00:09:00,270 --> 00:09:02,630 S4: So there's actually been a bit of back and forth 155 00:09:02,630 --> 00:09:07,110 S4: over government ID. Communications Minister Anika Wells did say in 156 00:09:07,110 --> 00:09:09,520 S4: a press conference last week that the law does not 157 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:13,040 S4: force you to hand over your government issued identification document, 158 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,400 S4: and that is technically true. But the reality is that 159 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,640 S4: the most accurate way, as I said before, to prove 160 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,880 S4: someone's age is with government ID, and so some users 161 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,760 S4: might actually be left with no choice if they need 162 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,360 S4: to access their account and are over 16, but have 163 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,880 S4: been flagged as under 16, they might have to actually 164 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,280 S4: supply their government issued identification. 165 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:45,680 S1: We'll be right back. We actually had some, I think, 166 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,520 S1: quite surprising polling that was published in our mastheads this week, 167 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,559 S1: and it revealed that less than a third of parents 168 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:54,960 S1: plan on enforcing this ban. So does this go to 169 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:56,959 S1: one of the pointy issues here, which is that the 170 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,280 S1: enforcement of the ban is really going to be lumped 171 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:00,480 S1: onto parents in the end. 172 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,720 S4: I think that's a common misconception about the legislation. The 173 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:06,960 S4: fact of the matter is that the onus is on 174 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:12,170 S4: the social media giants themselves to implement these reasonable steps 175 00:10:12,170 --> 00:10:17,330 S4: to prevent children under 16 from holding or creating accounts, 176 00:10:17,530 --> 00:10:21,209 S4: and that is why they have been using every chance 177 00:10:21,210 --> 00:10:25,170 S4: they can to blast the ban. And they also believe 178 00:10:25,170 --> 00:10:29,730 S4: that application stores should be in charge of enforcing an 179 00:10:29,730 --> 00:10:33,650 S4: age limitation. Um, so by that, they're saying that you 180 00:10:33,650 --> 00:10:36,530 S4: should really have to prove that you're over 16 to 181 00:10:36,570 --> 00:10:39,530 S4: be able to even download an app from the App Store. Um, 182 00:10:39,530 --> 00:10:43,770 S4: and that's because if these social media giants can't prove 183 00:10:43,770 --> 00:10:48,250 S4: that they've taken reasonable measures to prevent children under 16 184 00:10:48,250 --> 00:10:51,370 S4: from holding or creating accounts, they risk a maximum fine 185 00:10:51,410 --> 00:10:55,890 S4: of $49.5 million if they don't comply with the legislation. 186 00:10:56,170 --> 00:11:00,170 S4: So there is a bit of trickiness when it comes 187 00:11:00,170 --> 00:11:05,290 S4: to definition of reasonable steps. So the E-safety Commissioner's regulatory 188 00:11:05,330 --> 00:11:09,210 S4: guidelines merely state that they need to prove they've implemented 189 00:11:09,210 --> 00:11:13,860 S4: reasonable steps. Um, and they do give best practice examples, 190 00:11:13,860 --> 00:11:18,580 S4: but reasonable steps are not actually explicitly defined. So I 191 00:11:18,700 --> 00:11:22,780 S4: foresee potential legal arguments against that. But I guess we'll 192 00:11:22,780 --> 00:11:23,340 S4: wait and see. 193 00:11:23,380 --> 00:11:26,340 S1: Yeah, that definitely has my ears pricked up at that one. 194 00:11:26,620 --> 00:11:28,819 S1: And so I guess what about the kids themselves. Like 195 00:11:28,820 --> 00:11:31,100 S1: aren't they just going to circumvent the ban. 196 00:11:31,140 --> 00:11:34,500 S4: Yeah. Look there has been gossip on social media platforms 197 00:11:34,660 --> 00:11:38,260 S4: in comments and videos about how kids plan on getting 198 00:11:38,260 --> 00:11:42,020 S4: around the ban. A common thread is they all think 199 00:11:42,020 --> 00:11:43,740 S4: they're going to be able to stick their older brother 200 00:11:43,740 --> 00:11:46,980 S4: or sister or mum or dad or grandma in front 201 00:11:46,980 --> 00:11:49,660 S4: of the camera and get around it. When it comes 202 00:11:49,660 --> 00:11:53,020 S4: to facial scans, but really it's a wait and see situation. 203 00:11:53,020 --> 00:11:56,620 S4: We really don't know what it's going to look like 204 00:11:56,660 --> 00:11:59,980 S4: on Wednesday. We can. We know that there will be 205 00:12:00,900 --> 00:12:05,380 S4: bank account verification, email address verification, behavioral data, government ID, 206 00:12:05,420 --> 00:12:08,179 S4: but what's important to know is that children and parents 207 00:12:08,179 --> 00:12:11,459 S4: won't be punished for circumventing the ban if they happen 208 00:12:11,580 --> 00:12:14,620 S4: to do so because the onus is on the tech 209 00:12:14,620 --> 00:12:18,260 S4: giants in the legislation. What I will say is that 210 00:12:18,260 --> 00:12:23,060 S4: the E-safety Commissioner's regulatory guidelines does state that they expect 211 00:12:23,059 --> 00:12:26,620 S4: platforms to detect when a virtual private network is used. 212 00:12:26,620 --> 00:12:29,540 S4: And so that's a VPN. It masks your IP address 213 00:12:29,540 --> 00:12:31,820 S4: and can therefore make it appear as if you're in 214 00:12:32,100 --> 00:12:35,860 S4: another location. They expect tech giants to be able to 215 00:12:35,900 --> 00:12:39,860 S4: detect if a VPN has been used, and if it 216 00:12:39,860 --> 00:12:42,460 S4: has been used if that user is in Australia, and 217 00:12:42,460 --> 00:12:45,500 S4: then if that user is in Australia, if they're under 16, 218 00:12:45,740 --> 00:12:49,059 S4: how that's going to work. I have no idea. The 219 00:12:49,059 --> 00:12:53,100 S4: Esafety commissioner also encourages tech giants to have reporting systems 220 00:12:53,100 --> 00:12:56,660 S4: in place so that users can flag other accounts they 221 00:12:56,660 --> 00:13:00,500 S4: suspect as belonging to under 16 year olds. To the 222 00:13:00,500 --> 00:13:02,699 S4: tech giants. And then the tech giant can investigate. 223 00:13:02,740 --> 00:13:05,220 S1: Okay. Interesting, because many of us can attest to just 224 00:13:05,220 --> 00:13:09,140 S1: how resourceful kids can be. So finally, Bronte, what happens 225 00:13:09,140 --> 00:13:12,300 S1: from here? You know, how and when will we know 226 00:13:12,390 --> 00:13:14,910 S1: whether the ban will work or if it's just going 227 00:13:14,950 --> 00:13:15,790 S1: to fall to pieces? 228 00:13:16,110 --> 00:13:20,190 S4: That's a great question. It's written into our legislation, so 229 00:13:20,990 --> 00:13:26,150 S4: I don't particularly see it falling to pieces. But in 230 00:13:26,150 --> 00:13:28,870 S4: terms of how successful it will be and if it 231 00:13:28,870 --> 00:13:33,910 S4: will actually be able to realistically keep under 16 seconds 232 00:13:34,309 --> 00:13:36,870 S4: off social media platforms. I guess, like I said, we'll 233 00:13:36,870 --> 00:13:40,590 S4: have to wait and see. I'm interested in what it's 234 00:13:40,590 --> 00:13:43,310 S4: going to look like on Reddit and X, because they 235 00:13:43,350 --> 00:13:45,630 S4: have been pretty quiet about it. And we are on 236 00:13:45,630 --> 00:13:48,150 S4: the eve of the legislation coming into effect. There's a 237 00:13:48,150 --> 00:13:49,950 S4: lot that we are going to have to wait and 238 00:13:49,950 --> 00:13:54,390 S4: see about. What we do know is that in New 239 00:13:54,429 --> 00:13:58,150 S4: York in September, when Anthony Albanese and Anika Wells travelled 240 00:13:58,150 --> 00:14:01,710 S4: to the United Nations to spruik the ban, the European 241 00:14:01,710 --> 00:14:05,670 S4: Commission president said that she was inspired by Australia's example 242 00:14:05,990 --> 00:14:10,150 S4: and she said that we in Europe are watching Australia 243 00:14:10,150 --> 00:14:12,910 S4: and clearly they are looking to us as we implement 244 00:14:12,910 --> 00:14:16,000 S4: our world leading ban, as it's been called worldwide. 245 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,600 S1: Well, thank you so much, Bronte, for your time. 246 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:21,840 S4: Pleasure. Thanks for having me. 247 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:34,840 S1: Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Julia Carcasole. 248 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,560 S1: Our executive producer is Tami Mills. Tom Mackendrick is our 249 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,520 S1: head of audio. To listen to our episodes as soon 250 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:45,280 S1: as they drop, follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify, 251 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,880 S1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered 252 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:53,000 S1: by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism, visit The Age 253 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:58,320 S1: or smh.com.au. Subscribe and to stay up to date, sign 254 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:00,880 S1: up to our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a summary 255 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:04,560 S1: of the day's most important news in your inbox every morning. 256 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,640 S1: Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris, 257 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:09,960 S1: thanks for listening.