S1: Hey, I'm Melanie Kembrey and this is the drop a
S1: culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age,
S1: where we dive into the latest in the world of
S1: pop culture and entertainment. Osman Farooqi is sadly on leave
S1: just for this week, but I am joined by Thomas
S1: Mitchell and Meg Watson. Thomas, you've been off jet setting
S1: again from the Northern Territory to New York. What have
S1: some of the highlights been from the Big Apple?
S2: Yes, it makes it sound like I went from the
S2: Northern Territory to New York, but.
S1: I pretty much did. You've not worked since.
S2: Yeah, that's actually quite true. Yes, it was very nice.
S2: I went for a week for work for something TBC,
S2: but yeah, actually it was, it was very fun. It's
S2: obviously a great place to walk around in. Um, I
S2: really thought I would see someone famous because every time
S2: I've previously been, I've seen at least one famous person. Um,
S2: but sadly. Have you seen. Yeah. See, like, I my
S2: colleagues that I was with saw Sarah Paulson like ten
S2: minutes after I left them. Okay, so that was about
S2: as close as I got to, you know, a famous
S2: person experience, but otherwise it was. It was very fun. Um.
S2: And now I'm back.
S1: Eat good food.
S2: Yeah. Lots of pizza. Lots of bagels. Um, I really
S2: feel like the bagel culture. It's surprising to me that
S2: hasn't taken off here, given how much we love, like,
S2: breakfast foods and sandwiches and stuff. And everyone over there
S2: just eats them.
S3: It's taken off in Melbourne. We've got a lot of
S3: specialty shops which are hardcore.
S2: And do people like, get around it?
S3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, like like lines out the door every weekend.
S2: Really? Yeah. That's weird.
S3: I'm surprised Sydney doesn't have that. Yeah, that's weird, I know.
S2: And then I was kind of thinking, like, you always
S2: got to be thinking about potential businesses. I was like,
S2: maybe that can be a thing that I do in
S2: the future. Like, I.
S1: Can open a bagel.
S2: Business. Well, like, you know, there's a gap in the market,
S2: a gap with a hole in the middle, and I'm
S2: going to fill it.
S1: I don't think there is a gap. I think you've
S1: just not had bagels before.
S2: No, I've had them before. But like when you you
S2: guys have both been to New York, I'm assuming. Yes.
S2: You know how, like, there's this cafe chain called bluestone.
S2: It's like Australian started it. It's really popular and everyone's like, oh,
S2: go to bluestone if you want a good coffee. And
S2: I'm like that. You could do that same thing in reverse. Um, anyway,
S2: this is all the stuff I thought about when I
S2: was in New York.
S1: When you were working for your actual job. Meg, what
S1: about you?
S3: My week has been pretty crap by comparison. I have
S3: not been in New York. I've been sick in my house,
S3: thanks to my twins bringing home every illness from daycare. Um,
S3: and it's also been made worse by the fact that
S3: I'm currently writing the story for the SMH and the
S3: age about watching only ten play for a week, and
S3: so we've been doing a whole series of them. People
S3: have just watched iview for a week, SBS On Demand,
S3: and I put my hand up for Tenplay, which is
S3: like all well and good until you're stuck in your house, um,
S3: all day with only ten play to go on. So
S3: I've watched a lot of Taskmaster recently, and I was
S3: so thrilled when you asked me to be on this
S3: week's show, because I got to watch something else. Yeah.
S2: So how strict have you been? I've been.
S3: Pretty good. I've been pretty good. Um, if anything, though,
S3: it's made me watch less TV overall because I knew
S3: there wasn't much good stuff going. So it's maybe healthier actually.
S2: Is your partner like, does it hedeland fall into the
S2: remit of this?
S3: Like, that's been that was a real topic of discussion. Um,
S3: he was not stoked about the story. Um, but definitely
S3: a few nights he was just watching other stuff and
S3: I was, you know, cooking and not paying attention or like,
S3: went into my room to watch a much less fun show.
S1: Have you had any other discoveries apart from Taskmaster, which
S1: is very popular here? Anything else deep in the archives
S1: of Tenplay?
S3: Um, I mean, it's pretty good for reality TV if
S3: you're after reality TV, it's a decent place to be.
S3: And that includes not just Australian series, but UK and
S3: New Zealand, South Africa, they've got like full seasons of survivor,
S3: of things like the Traders, which I know Aussies talked
S3: about on the show a lot and is a really
S3: decent show. The UK version especially is great. Um, beyond
S3: that it is pretty bleak. There's no real scripted, um,
S3: comedy or drama, which is a real hole unless you
S3: want to watch The Secret Life of Us. Great.
S2: I was gonna say surely that. And, like, offspring would
S2: be on there.
S1: Yep, yep.
S3: Yes, they have all that. Um. So. Yeah. You'll love it,
S3: I guess.
S1: Yeah. Well, I'm looking forward to Thomas no doubt doing
S1: the nine, the nine play.
S2: One might do that anyway. Only watch either nine now
S2: or Stan and they just got such premium.
S1: Keep trying to fund your bagel business. Correct. All right. Well,
S1: speaking about good TV shows this week we're going to
S1: look into the art of television crime, the popularity of
S1: the genre, the ethics and exploitations. When it's done well,
S1: when it's done poorly. And we're going to look at
S1: two big shows which were released recently Under the Bridge,
S1: which is on Disney+, and Presumed Innocent, which is on
S1: Apple TV, to kick us off, I feel like there
S1: are a never ending stream of crime shows, documentaries, mini series.
S1: Are you guys big crime heads? Meg, when you're not
S1: watching Taskmaster, is it crime that you're hungering for?
S3: I don't think I would classify myself as someone who.
S3: Is a full true crime fan or anything like that.
S3: I'm not chasing those really gory Dockers or anything, but
S3: it's definitely part of my diet. I think I lean
S3: towards the kind of funnier fictional takes in the genre,
S3: the kind of Fargo, you know, Russian Doll was great.
S3: Even deadlock in the past year or so from, um,
S3: Kate McCartney and Kate McLennan was really a really fun
S3: comedy spin on the genre. Um, but I mean, I'm
S3: not above it either. Uh, during lockdowns, I binged every
S3: single episode of Law and Order SVU. Um, and if
S3: you have any idea of the back catalogue of that show,
S3: that is a lot, a lot of time and pretty,
S3: pretty bleak viewing as well. So it's part of the mix.
S3: But I'm not a die hard, I think. How about.
S1: You? I feel like there has been a real rise
S1: of that kind of funny crime. Only murders in the
S1: building is another one where it's less about the crime itself,
S1: as much about the jokes that are made solving the crime. Thomas,
S1: I know you like a bit of crime, I think.
S2: Yeah, actually, like, I actually am a bit of a
S2: crime head, even though I don't classify myself that way.
S2: But when I was, like, thinking about this, I do
S2: often feel like now one of the first things I
S2: go to when I'm looking for a new show, like
S2: I'll just naturally drift towards, like the really dark crimes like.
S2: And I do feel like in the last few years,
S2: there's been like a kind of, like big shift in
S2: the level of quality. Like, I don't know why. Maybe
S2: this is just in my own head, but I feel
S2: like Mare of Easttown was one that, like, really like
S2: people got buzzed about it in a way that often
S2: these genre shows like Don't Demand. And I think, you know,
S2: obviously it had Kate Winslet and it was like really
S2: dark and gritty and stuff. And like that to me
S2: is the perfect type of crime show. And yeah, I guess,
S2: like since then I've found myself on a drifting towards
S2: more and more of those, like really, I don't know,
S2: I do like to be like disturbed when viewing. I
S2: think it's like a comfort thing. In a weird way.
S2: This is the same thing I have. Like I have
S2: a discussion with my friends all the time. Whenever I'm
S2: like quite hungover. I like watching horror films because it's like,
S2: maybe it's the the forced, like emotion. And so I
S2: think it's the same kind of appeal when I go
S2: to look for like a true crime show or just
S2: a crime show in general.
S1: And many people would say that the BBC kind of
S1: pioneered the classic crime drama with detectives that you follow
S1: for series after series. I quite like those ones. Like
S1: I recently discovered Shetland and watched all seven series, and
S1: there's something so comforting in the formula of it. You
S1: kind of put it on nice landscape shots. You know
S1: what you're getting. It's not too surprising. It's not too
S1: hard to follow. Um, Meg, do you like those kind
S1: of classic BBC crime dramas?
S3: I've never got into those, really. I mean, I know
S3: there's always a channel on TV pumping, just like non-stop
S3: summer murder mysteries of some British description. Um, I never
S3: got into those, but I feel like over the past
S3: little while, there's such a deviation in how we talk
S3: about these crime shows because like you said, there's like
S3: these prestige offerings. There's Kate Winslet doing Mare of Easttown.
S3: And then on the other hand, Netflix are just like
S3: slapping out one every week of kind of increasingly disturbing content.
S3: I mean, I watched that, um, Dahmer show. It was
S3: like the show with ten names. It's like monster, Jeffrey
S3: Dahmer Story's Jeffrey Dahmer Chronicle. But that was, um, really
S3: off putting. And I feel like in the past few years,
S3: I've really leaned away from anything that's actually based on
S3: true stories. Um, just because there's such a hunger with
S3: these big streaming companies, especially to juice them for all
S3: they're worth. And, um, that made me a little tentative, actually,
S3: for one of the shows that was coming out at
S3: the moment, which we're going to talk about.
S1: Yes. And we'll get to Under the Bridge, which is
S1: based on a real life story soon. And it's interesting
S1: what you were saying, Meg, because the rise of the
S1: crime drama and the true crime drama has happened parallel
S1: also to the rise of the true crime documentary, both
S1: on screen and when it comes to podcasts, shows like
S1: The Staircase, which really kind of capitalized on that appetite
S1: for true crime. Thomas, why do you think people love
S1: watching crime? You hinted that for some reason you find
S1: it quite cathartic to watch people being brutally killed on television.
S2: Okay, you've stitched me up there now, I think. I mean,
S2: I do think in a way that, well, the format
S2: is like, in a strange way, comforting because it's always like,
S2: you know, classic story structure of like beginning, middle, end.
S2: There's like good guys, bad guys. It's like familiar to us.
S2: And so that is appealing in a way. But I mean,
S2: I don't know if you've heard of a little thing
S2: called In Cold Blood by Truman Capote. No. But like,
S2: you know, the genre is obviously, like, really old. Um,
S2: as as we know we've discussed this previously, but I
S2: feel like crime as a genre used to be, like,
S2: especially even in Capote's day, it was like a bit
S2: low brow and stuff, whereas that has really shifted. And
S2: we've been talking about like the popularity of like crime
S2: or true crime for like years now. But I think
S2: especially in this era of like, you know, the armchair
S2: detective thing that we talk about so much, like there
S2: is that element of like, people love to, you know,
S2: the rise of, like, serial and making a murderer like
S2: that thing of being involved in the story in real
S2: time as, like a big part of, I think, the
S2: current obsession with true crime. And then. I guess the
S2: fact that it is like always that voyeuristic thing of like, oh,
S2: getting to like, see the icky parts of real life is,
S2: is appealing. Like it's just human nature. I think we
S2: do like to look at that kind of car crash
S2: effect where you like, can't look away. And I think
S2: all of that stuff has been like, true forever. But
S2: now in this era of streaming, it's like, you know,
S2: they're just like constantly like, I think both of these
S2: shows we're going to talk about today, Under the Bridge
S2: and Presumed Innocent are based on books like, it's like
S2: all the streamers have realized there's so much like, material
S2: existing now that they can, you know, adapt and stuff.
S2: And so it's really like it's all come together to this,
S2: like perfect marriage of, like, all this stuff exists. We're
S2: already kind of conditioned to be interested in it. And
S2: now it's just like, how much can you handle? Yeah.
S1: And Meg, you hinted at kind of you feel a
S1: bit of discomfort about kind of that, that the rise
S1: of this genre and how readily we are to consume
S1: it and make it. And, you know, when things, when
S1: industries do see a big boom and true crime documentaries
S1: and true crime is one of those, it's kind of
S1: churned out so fast and people are wanting to capitalize
S1: on the interest so much that sometimes the ethics of
S1: it aren't given time to be considered. So you see
S1: documentary makers making shows about people without really kind of
S1: giving moral consideration to what they're doing. When did you
S1: kind of start to feel a bit icky about some
S1: of these crime shows, particularly the ones based on real life?
S3: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think to pinpoint
S3: a moment, I think something happened in 2014 that collectively
S3: broke our brains around that first season of serial. Um,
S3: we all became obsessed with Sarah Koenig and Adnan Saeed. And,
S3: you know, that was the first kind of popular moment,
S3: I think, where everyone was hitting Reddit, doing their own
S3: kind of investigations into something that this professional journalist was
S3: already looking into. And from there it kind of spiraled
S3: out of control. Then we got, you know, the making
S3: a murderer, we got the jinx, we got the staircase,
S3: we got all these run ons that, you know, are
S3: great objects in their own right and really interesting and
S3: worthwhile investigations in many ways, but at the same time
S3: spiraled into this online chaos, which I was very much
S3: a part of. You know, I really enjoyed that as
S3: a moment. But as the years wear on, we're past
S3: a decade since that first came out. Now it's just tiring.
S3: I think the idea of true crime being this participatory
S3: sport is just, you know, there's good ways to do
S3: it and bad, and it's an ethical quagmire all the time.
S3: But I'm just tired of it, frankly. Yeah.
S1: And we saw it all come to a head, of course,
S1: with baby reindeer, which was kind of the extreme of
S1: that armchair detective. Um, but you were talking about journalists
S1: being involved in, in these crime stories, and he.
S2: Was a journalist.
S1: Nick Cafferty, um, of course, was very involved in Cold Blood,
S1: and it's very much a part of that story. And
S1: in Under the Bridge, uh, as well, there's a journalist character.
S1: So why don't we move on to talking about that one?
UU: There's danger everywhere.
S4: But danger had never looked quite like this before.
S5: This girl, Reena Virk.
S6: She's been missing for three days. That night I saw something.
S6: What happened under the bridge?
S1: It's an eight part mini series which is now on
S1: Disney via Hulu, and it's about the real life murder
S1: of 14 year old Reena Virk by a group of
S1: teenagers in British Columbia, Canada, in 1997. It's based on
S1: the 2005 book of the same name by journalist Rebecca Godfrey,
S1: who in this series is played by Riley Keough, who
S1: is also an EP on the show. She returns to
S1: her home in Victoria to work on a book, but
S1: finds herself, like Truman, part of the story. When the
S1: body of a Indian-canadian teen, Reena, is discovered. She's played
S1: by Ritika Gupta, and the focus turns on a group
S1: of teenagers Josephine Bell, played by Chloe Guidry, Warren Glatkowski,
S1: played by Javon Wanna Walton, and Kelly Ellard, played by
S1: Izzy G. Lily Gladstone plays Detective Kam Benchland, who has
S1: a complicated relationship with Rebecca. Meg, what did you make
S1: of Under the Bridge? Did you like watching it?
S3: Yeah, I was pretty skeptical going in for these same reasons.
S3: I'm not super into the true stories these days. I'm
S3: a bit skeptical of these shows, which are always based
S3: around a dead girl in a small town. The mystery
S3: surrounding it. Um, but I was pleasantly surprised, I think
S3: just because of the the depth of the story, I
S3: suppose there was real compassion for Rena and her family,
S3: and she gets a lot more screen time than most
S3: victims do when they kind of dispersed. Of in the
S3: opening EP. Um, her story is a really interesting one.
S3: You know, growing up in this small Canadian town from
S3: an Indian family, her mother is a strict Jehovah's Witness,
S3: puts her in a pretty tough position with these, you know,
S3: tough girls of the 90s. Um, I thought particularly the
S3: dynamic of girls kind of young girl violence on young
S3: girls is an interesting one. Usually when it's a dead
S3: girl in a small town, it's like, which of these
S3: 12 men did it? They all have reasons. Whereas now
S3: it's much more about like, we kind of know who
S3: the culprits are. But why would that happen? How could
S3: it happen? What does this particular type of violence that
S3: young girls inflict on each other and why? I found
S3: that really interesting. There's a few caveats there. I found
S3: Riley Keoughs character a bit strange. And, you know, I've
S3: seen three episodes at this point, and I don't fully
S3: understand her backstory and some of her motivations, but all
S3: in all, I'm having a good time.
S1: And what about you, Thomas? I know you've watched it all,
S1: and you were you were kind of hyping this up
S1: before it got to Australia, because it had quite a
S1: prominent release overseas before it landed on Disney here. Yeah.
S1: Did it live up to your expectations? Yeah, I think so.
S2: I actually weirdly like didn't realize it was a true
S2: story going into it.
S1: Um, even though it says at the start of every
S1: episode this is based on a true story. Yeah.
S2: This is like a indictment of my, like, short attention span.
S3: It's okay. Maybe you thought it was a Fargo situation. Exactly.
S2: You can never tell anymore. Uh, yeah. I think it's
S2: like it's funny talking about these two, like, Presumed Innocent,
S2: which obviously get onto in such close succession. I feel
S2: like I really enjoyed this, but it probably felt more
S2: like a show that kind of, on the surface, ticked
S2: all the boxes of like what constitutes a good, you know,
S2: true crime show these days. Like it had all the
S2: elements in place. But I think like by the end
S2: of it I was just a little bit like, ah,
S2: it it's a slightly unsatisfying, I think, um, even though
S2: it did feel like it had the framework to be
S2: like a really good show. I thought Riley Keough was good,
S2: and I was especially interested, I think, in Lily Gladstone,
S2: because she's had this massive year, you know, she basically
S2: lots of people thought she was like robbed for an Oscar.
S2: It was like a breakout year. And I always find
S2: it interesting to see, like what someone like that does next.
S2: I thought this was like a funny project for her, like,
S2: because I don't think you know her character. They have
S2: an interesting relationship. Her character is good, but it was
S2: a strange one I didn't like quite understand why she
S2: would decide to do like this particular TV show where
S2: she was kind of like third lead, really, like after
S2: Rina and Riley, Kira's character. But yeah, I guess like
S2: generally I had an interesting time and I do think
S2: there were, you know, like you said, Meg, the way
S2: that crime specifically was treated, like at first you're like,
S2: oh God, here we go again, like a brutal murder.
S2: But then it does kind of like delve into more
S2: and especially that's probably my favorite part, I think, like
S2: learning about the, you know, the three girls who, uh,
S2: kind of in the midst of it, um, and you know,
S2: that they're obviously from impoverished backgrounds and like, their friendship,
S2: I thought was like really at times hard but interesting
S2: to watch because, you know, like, they're really up against
S2: it and they're really awful to each other. But then
S2: there are like moments of tenderness. So that was really interesting.
S2: But yeah, I think a little bit by the end
S2: I was like, okay, it felt paint by numbers.
S1: Yeah. And I think as you're hinting at, there's a
S1: lot going on in this show. There's a journalist character
S1: that's the Riley Keefe character, there's the detective cam. They've
S1: got a relationship going on. There's flashbacks to the past.
S1: There are troubled youth. There's elements of race that's coming
S1: into this to, um, I almost thought it was trying
S1: to do too much and tick too many boxes. Um,
S1: I know the directors and makers have spoken about how
S1: they wanted to approach the crime with radical empathy, giving
S1: it given it is based on a real story. But
S1: I did feel that maybe it held them back from
S1: going as into some of these dynamics as they would have,
S1: and they kind of skimmed the surface of a lot
S1: of these issues, kind of issues of socioeconomic backgrounds, issues
S1: of race. They kind of glided along the surface. And
S1: to me, it almost felt a bit bland, and maybe
S1: it could have gone more in depth on some of
S1: these things. Why don't we talk about it is set
S1: in the 90s and the 90s. Element is actually quite
S1: a big part of this show in particular. Um, Biggs.
S2: I was waiting for you. You're gonna go biggie or
S2: you would spell it out. I knew you.
S1: Would look at me for this 1997 opus, Life After Death,
S1: which is a huge part of the show. How well, Meg,
S1: did you enjoy that setting of the 90s and how
S1: well do you think they captured that time?
S3: Yeah, I mean, look, I was six and 1997, so
S3: my perception of the moment is probably a little different
S3: to some other people, but I think that they captured the.
S3: You're really well, and I think that specific point in
S3: time is a really interesting one to tell this story.
S3: I mean, it was a time where a lot of
S3: young girls were reclaiming power in lots of ways. I mean,
S3: 97 is one year after the craft came out, which,
S3: you know, had teenage girls acting a bit witchy and
S3: feeling like they had supernatural powers. You saw a scene
S3: in one of the early episodes the girls are doing,
S3: like a seance at a party. Um, you know, they
S3: were feeling like they could have a more masculine style.
S3: She's got the Steve Madden kind of combat boots. This
S3: was the era of, like, No Doubt's just a girl. Um,
S3: you know, 97 is the year that Spiceworld came out.
S3: These are not Spice World girls. Um, they're much more
S3: about Tupac and Biggie, but I think it's a really
S3: great exploration of, you know, what power young women had
S3: at this time and what whether that power was dispersed
S3: equally because, as you said, the girls featured are pretty
S3: disadvantaged in a lot of ways, and feeling a lot
S3: of their anger comes from that disadvantage, whether that's socioeconomic
S3: or racial or religious in some respects. And it really
S3: butts heads against one another. So I felt it was
S3: such an interesting exploration of who gets what power and why,
S3: and how do they use it against each other. I mean,
S3: the white girls in this little gang, the Crip, Crip
S3: mafia cartel, Chelsea, they, um, they seem pretty keen on
S3: a particular type of culture that they're weaponizing. Uh, pretty, uh,
S3: appallingly against the black and non-white people in their group.
S1: Yeah, that's really well put, because part of the thing
S1: this show does is walk a really fine line between
S1: capturing the savagery of the crime, um, that is committed,
S1: but also placing the perpetrators in the context of their
S1: troubled lives. Um, do you think it did that successfully, Thomas?
S2: Uh, yeah, I think so. Just one second. I'm going
S2: back to the 90s. I did.
S1: Think your favorite.
S2: Era, it was nice to see like, people smoking on screen, because.
S1: That was not what I thought you were gonna say.
S3: Wow, what a takeaway.
S1: But Riley here, she TV, she smokes.
S2: No, but, like, she smokes all the time. And then, like,
S2: in famously in Mare of Easttown, obviously my favorite crime show,
S2: She Vapes, which I remember was like one of the
S2: first times I saw someone vaping, like, on screen in
S2: like a modern crime drama. And whereas, like, there's so
S2: much smoking in this show and I know obviously smoking
S2: is bad, etc., etc. but it felt like it really
S2: like placed it in the 90s when it was just
S2: like people did it without thought rather than like a
S2: fucking BlackBerry ice or whatever. She was just like, you know,
S2: handing out cigarettes. They were like probably $5 for a packet.
S2: So I quite enjoyed that. And so.
S3: Nostalgic.
S2: Yeah. Also the fact that there was just like, I
S2: think you take this for granted, but no phones, like.
S1: Yes, you.
S2: Know, like Reno at one point runs to a payphone
S2: at one point. Yeah. But like just that, you know,
S2: obviously we take it for granted now. But when you
S2: think about telling a story like this and this is
S2: something I often think about generally it's so much easier
S2: to commit a crime in the 90s because, like, it's
S2: so hard now to get. I mean, I know because
S2: I've been trying it's so hard to like get away
S2: with the crime now because everything is like, whereas in
S2: that era, like even, you know, obviously Reena, like, kind
S2: of goes missing for all this time and there's like
S2: a little tiny bit of CCTV, but like, whereas now
S2: every so much of that would be captured, like you
S2: can so easily trace back because of technology, whereas back then,
S2: you know, you were just smoking and in the dark.
S1: I think that's a good point. And a lot of
S1: authors and, um, film directors and TV makers are setting
S1: their shows just slightly before technology really takes hold for
S1: that very reason, because the logistics of trying to commit
S1: a crime and solve it when there is internet. Yeah,
S1: like changes everything. Well, we were talking about, um, we
S1: were talking about Riley Coffee's character, Rebecca Godfrey, who is
S1: this journalist who comes back to write her book, and
S1: then she gets entangled. Really entangled with these children. Thomas,
S1: have you ever covered a story like that?
S2: Uh, yes. Actually, uh, no. Look, I've never really done. Sadly.
S2: I know we'll get on to your crime career, Mel. Uh,
S2: for the listeners. Spent a lot of time working in
S2: as a court reporter. She likes to mention it. Probably
S2: twice a day. I reckon.
S1: Some of us have to do real journalism here. Uh.
S2: But. Yes. No. Sadly, I haven't had to go to
S2: a small town and look at a murder yet. Um,
S2: perhaps one day. But, yeah, I don't know. Does it
S2: speak to your time as a court reporter?
S1: Look, no, not really, because I think and I think
S1: Riley Keefe is good at this, but her character, which
S1: is based on the real author of the book, gets
S1: away with so much in this. And I think she's
S1: ever held ethically or morally culpable for what she does,
S1: which is hanging out with teenagers kind of really get
S1: involved in a police case, and.
S2: She does acid with a 14 year old boy.
S1: She drops acid, which I sleeping over with him? Uh, yeah.
S1: She's sleeping over with him. Um, she's kind of misleading
S1: the cops, um, influencing the kids to kind of what
S1: testimony they give. And to me, the show just really
S1: let her off and didn't really examine the role she
S1: was playing, which I thought she was completely out of
S1: line in a lot of the way she did. And
S1: what was she getting out of this? She was getting
S1: a book. She was working on. And the show at
S1: one point shows the New York Times ad for the
S1: book that's coming out, and you can't help but feel
S1: that she's capitalizing on this crime so much. But the
S1: show doesn't really hold her to account for for this. Meg,
S1: what did you like her character?
S3: I'm not sure how I was supposed to feel about her,
S3: because everything that was presented to me, like she seemed
S3: like a bad writer. Even when she's entering the town,
S3: she's got this, like, book full of notes saying like,
S3: it's a terrible story. She's jumping on this thing without
S3: any real direction or ethical guidance or sense of what
S3: she's doing. She's ruining this actual like, police case of murder.
S3: It all seems really critical in a way that it
S3: didn't ever seem to really like. It felt like I
S3: was supposed to be rooting for her when she's just,
S3: you know, making a mess of the situation and for
S3: pretty poor results. I mean, the stuff that she says
S3: into her voice recorder that's supposed to be these, like,
S3: very insightful notes. It's terrible. It's so terrible.
S1: The whole idea of the voice recorder when she's sitting
S1: at the cafe speaking to it, I mean, can you
S1: imagine doing that? I know that.
S2: That felt like a bit cringe. I thought Riley was
S2: pretty good, though. I like Riley. I mean, we love
S2: Elvis's family.
S1: Yeah, I think she did what she could with a
S1: script that we love Elvis's family, but I think she
S1: did what she could with a script that probably made
S1: her character pretty.
S3: Two D it kind of feels it feels like what
S3: you were saying before. I agree that the show is
S3: really spread thin across a lot of people, and what
S3: the most interesting part is, is actually these young girls,
S3: and it needed more time to focus on them. But
S3: the show was kind of sold by its big stars.
S3: You've got Lily Gladstone, you've got Riley Keough, so you
S3: want to make the most of them. But that feels
S3: really not ideal for the story. That is the most
S3: interesting in the plot, which I think makes it a
S3: bit scattered.
S1: Yeah, totally. And there is this relationship between Riley and
S1: Lily Thomas. You mentioned that you like seeing Lily Gladstone
S1: in her first role since, um, killers of the Flower Moon,
S1: which we probably all think Osman is sitting at home
S1: watching on repeat right now, as she is really good
S1: playing Molly, and I think we all agree, deserved to
S1: win the Oscar for that role, but lost out to
S1: Emma Stone. I thought she was really good in this.
S1: I thought again, I think she plays understated really well.
S1: I think she I think Riley can overact in a
S1: way with the emotions, but Lily has this pared back
S1: kind of thing where she can give a lot, but
S1: not in an obvious way. I really liked her as
S1: this detective, and I wanted more of her and could
S1: have almost done with less Riley and cut off some
S1: of the other issues, and had her as a real
S1: kind of more of a lead character in this. Did
S1: you think she did good?
S2: Yeah, I think no, I think she was good. Like,
S2: she's obviously a good actress. Um, obviously, in case she's listening.
S2: Well done, Lily, but no, I think it's more just like,
S2: I think I'm just personally curious, like, about. I just
S2: find it interesting about, like, the decision making process for
S2: someone like Lily Gladstone when you've, like, come off a
S2: massive movie where also that that movie was, like, really
S2: about her killers of the Flower Moon. She's like, she
S2: dominates it. It goes for like seven hours and she's
S2: like on screen for six hours and 50 minutes, whereas
S2: then like this, I just found it interesting because it's
S2: not a really like maybe on on the page she
S2: was like, this is going to be like a super
S2: buzzy project. I don't know, like it has got buzz,
S2: but I don't know if for her it was like
S2: such a great showcase of her talents, even though she
S2: is good in it. Um, so I just thought that
S2: was kind of an interesting, like sideways move for her
S2: career wise. And I wonder if she's kind of like
S2: sitting somewhere with her agents being like, hmm, well, like,
S2: we did that and like, probably like won't rush into another,
S2: you know, like TV project. But I thought generally, you know,
S2: they were good together. I actually thought, like, there were
S2: some things this show did which were at least interesting, like, um,
S2: you know, there is a obviously we spoke about Rina being,
S2: you know, like the children of these Indian immigrants and
S2: Jehovah's Witnesses, and we do get like a kind of
S2: sandwiched in the middle, like a bottle episode that tells
S2: the story of her parents meeting. And it's basically a
S2: complete flashback episode, um, watching her dad, you know, like,
S2: migrate to Canada and being kind of like, uh, he's
S2: not a Jehovah's Witness, but he gets like, sucked into,
S2: you know, the community there. And then he meets Rina's mother,
S2: and it's like a full flashback episode, which I thought
S2: was interesting. Like, again, that part of that was like,
S2: I can see what the show is doing. Like it's
S2: it's like taking a format that has been done successfully
S2: elsewhere and just kind of like transplanting it. I don't
S2: know if it works, but I was like, oh, props
S2: for trying. Yeah.
S1: What did you think about Lili Meg? Because in some
S1: ways this isn't a whodunit, because you do know whodunit
S1: pretty early on. So the role of the detective is
S1: a bit of a different one to your conventional crime drama.
S1: Were you happy with the amount of Lily you got
S1: in this show?
S3: Yeah, I suppose it would have been nice to see
S3: a little more. And I agree that she was a
S3: stronger character than Riley Keough's journalist. I suppose a comparison
S3: is Kate Winslet in Mare of Easttown, and that was
S3: kind of seen her. That was seen as her stepping
S3: out onto the small screen, having a big role in
S3: a different way. So it could have been that Lily
S3: was shooting for that kind of thing. It also could
S3: have been that she shot this before killers, or at
S3: the same time as killers, like, yeah, who knows how
S3: these things work? Um, I don't think it was a
S3: poor use of her talent, though. I think she does
S3: this kind of silent stoicism quite well. She's got a
S3: real sense of righteousness and. Doing the right thing. It
S3: would be nice to see her in different kinds of roles,
S3: because obviously those are qualities that are pretty similar to
S3: her character in killers of the Flower Moon. And I
S3: think it's often easy to cast this, you know, such
S3: talented indigenous actress with the same kind of thing over
S3: and over again, because she does it well. But, you know,
S3: she's a very talented actress. I'm sure she can do
S3: loads of different things. It would have been nice to
S3: see a bit more range as well.
S1: And did you guys go down the rabbit hole of
S1: this one into. Because I did find myself on this
S1: case looking up where the real life killers were at. Um,
S1: did you guys do the research before you watched it
S1: or after you watched it? Or have you gone down
S1: that rabbit hole?
S2: I have gone down that rabbit hole. Um, obviously, like,
S2: you know, an official spoiler alert for anyone listening who
S2: is in the middle of watching the show, but particularly
S2: the kind of one the main young guy in it,
S2: Warren Gorlitsky, who I think the actors from euphoria, um,
S2: his character kind of like looking at he had a
S2: really interesting, like post crime journey. Um, in terms of
S2: becoming like an advocate for justice. He became quite close
S2: with Marina Burke's family. Um, and that's, you know, it
S2: was interesting. And then also, I watched like a I
S2: must have been like, I don't know, today USA interview
S2: with Joe. Um, and she, she is kind of exactly
S2: what you would imagine her to be. But yeah, I
S2: guess and you know, back to, I guess, the original
S2: point of what is the appeal of these types of
S2: projects that also I think is like big for me,
S2: getting to do the post show like Wikipedia and Google
S2: until you like, read every single piece of like information
S2: out there about what happened to these people. I do
S2: think that's like always fun.
S1: Yeah, it kind of troubled me a bit. These kids
S1: were so young. As the show makes a real point
S1: of expressing when when this incident happened, that then to
S1: fictionalize it. You do wonder about the real life consequences
S1: on their life going forward. I mean, we have seen
S1: how some people like Anna Delphi, of course, has capitalized
S1: on the fame that a Netflix series did, but hers
S1: was obviously a very different case, and people had a
S1: different relationship to what she did to to these kids. Um, Meg,
S1: I know earlier you were saying that was part of
S1: your concern about these shows that are based on real events.
S1: Have you gone and done all your research on on
S1: what happened to the real characters?
S3: Um, I wouldn't say I've gone and done my research.
S3: I've done just enough research to have this conversation because
S3: I only watched the first three episodes, which don't really
S3: give you a full understanding of whodunit. Exactly. Um, so
S3: I know the outlines of what happened, but not, you know,
S3: the full characterizations or interviews they did after or their
S3: whole life. Are you going to keep.
S1: Going with it?
S3: Yeah, I think I will. Um, yeah, I definitely will.
S3: I don't know if I'll then do all the research,
S3: but I think it's a worthwhile show to jump into
S3: and see all the way through.
S1: Yeah. Good mix. After you've watched like 15 episodes of Taskmaster.
S3: Yeah, maybe. The comparison is quite harsh for me as well.
S3: I'm like, what a show. Prestige television.
S1: From a real life story to a fictional one. Let's
S1: move on to Presumed Innocent.
S7: I just want to make sure that we have everything
S7: exactly right.
S8: Let's get started.
S7: You aware that Carolyn Palamas was murdered? When was the
S7: last time you were in Carolyn's apartment?
S9: Uh, we had cases together. Sometimes we would work after
S9: hours at her apartment.
S7: Your fingerprints were found in her bedroom. Were you and
S7: Karolina romantically involved?
S8: My suspect.
S9: Because I did not kill her.
S1: Three apps are out now on Apple TV. This is
S1: based on Scott Turlough's best selling 1986 legal whodunit of
S1: the same name, which has already been adapted for screen
S1: in 1990. Wow, starring Harrison Ford and our own Greta. Sacha.
S1: Had you guys seen this movie? I had not seen it.
S1: So I went into the TV show knowing nothing about
S1: the plot. But I know the many people adored the film.
S1: Had you watched it?
S2: I've never said no. I hadn't seen it. And I'm like, yeah,
S2: I'm curious because I'm so into this show now. So
S2: I like don't want any spoilers from anybody.
S1: What about you, Meg?
S3: I, I hadn't seen it. I'd heard of it, obviously.
S3: And I know that, yeah, people really hold it in
S3: high respect. After I watched the first couple of episodes
S3: of the TV show, I went and watched the movie. Um,
S3: I've watched three quarters of the movie and googled the
S3: last bit of the plot, which is very important. And look,
S3: I had to go to sleep. I'm sick. But, um,
S3: it was really interesting to compare the two and compare
S3: the performances with Jake Gyllenhaal and Harrison Ford, which are
S3: very different. Compare the story, different treatments of the story,
S3: particularly its treatment of women, which it is. Um, yeah,
S3: we can talk about.
S1: Yes, I would love to. Well, that is really interesting. Um,
S1: so the miniseries is created by David E Kelley, who
S1: we know loves legal shows. He was behind Big Little Lies,
S1: Boston Legal, ally McBeal, my favorite. Um. The miniseries stars
S1: Jake Gyllenhaal as a prosecutor who becomes the prime suspect
S1: in the murder of one of his colleagues. Carolyn. There's
S1: some really great, um, uh, supporting roles here Bill camp
S1: and Peter Sarsgaard, um, who are in the prosecutor's office,
S1: Peter Sarsgaard in real life, Jake Gyllenhaal's brother in law.
S1: So there you go. Fun little fun little addition. Um, Meg,
S1: what did you make of the show? And having also
S1: gone back and watched the movie, which one do you prefer?
S3: Um, I really prefer the TV show a lot. Um,
S3: it's so juicy and pulpy. You know, sometimes I kind
S3: of catch myself feeling bad for enjoying it so much.
S3: There's quite a lot of explicit, leering shots of, you know,
S3: Carolyn's dead body and these throwback scenes of when they
S3: were having sex. And it's just like it's made to
S3: be quite deliberately juicy in that way, but it really
S3: hooks you as well. Like Jake Gyllenhaal's performance is out
S3: of control. He is sweating, he is manic. Um, love
S3: that for him. He's such a good actor when he's
S3: allowed to just go full crazy, like, I mean, anyone
S3: who's seen him in that role in October knows just
S3: how crazy he can go. Um, I loved that. It's just. Yeah,
S3: there's great political intrigue with him in the kind of
S3: district attorney's office, which doesn't sound interesting, but is in
S3: the context. Um, and I particularly love that this TV
S3: version allows for a lot more scope of what's happening
S3: in his home life. So, I mean, he's had this
S3: affair with his co-worker. She's then died. It goes on
S3: from there. But in the movie, there's not much scope
S3: given to his wife to have much direct input on
S3: how that's affected their home life, or how this ongoing
S3: court case will kind of explode their lives. And that's
S3: such a big part of the show and causes so
S3: much anguish in Gyllenhaal's character.
S1: Yeah, I've only watched, so there's only three apps out
S1: at the moment on Apple TV, and they're releasing it
S1: week by week. I really like this show. I don't
S1: think it's gonna like, is it the best show that's
S1: ever made? I don't think so, but it is so
S1: enjoyable to watch. I think the episodes all have amazing, like,
S1: cliffhanger notes. I think it's so like polished and sleek. Um,
S1: it reminds me a bit of anatomy of a scandal.
S1: It's got a Big Little Lies vibe, like you're in
S1: the circle of the rich and the powerful here, and
S1: you're watching how that powers wielded by everyone, um, there's
S1: personal politics, there's office politics. There's obviously a brutal crime. Um,
S1: given I haven't watched the movie, I do find, like,
S1: I don't know which way the show is going to go,
S1: which is keeping me on the edge of my seat.
S1: Whereas I feel like if you'd watch the movie and
S1: you kind of know how it's going to play out,
S1: you'd have a very different experience watching this. But, um,
S1: I think it's really a watchable, enjoyable show. Thomas, have
S1: you binged this?
S2: Uh, I, I've seen all the episodes that are out. Um,
S2: the supporting cast is really good and like. Yeah, it's
S2: like it's a very uncomfortable watch, like made kind of
S2: touched on it. The family element is such a big
S2: part of this. Like obviously, you know, this isn't really
S2: a spoiler, but you know, he's had this explicit affair
S2: with his colleague and, and we kind of pick up
S2: in the first episode when his wife there in the
S2: aftermath of it and they're kind of patching their lives
S2: back together. And then all of this stuff gets dropped in,
S2: which makes it very clear that, in fact, you know,
S2: the affair is not over and has been continuing. And
S2: and it's almost like that element, too, is so difficult
S2: to watch because you're watching this guy, he's like almost
S2: playing whack a mole, trying to like, patch the different
S2: holes in his life. And then you add into that,
S2: like when when things start to unfold and he becomes,
S2: you know, the center of this crime. It is it's
S2: an anxious watch. Um, which often doesn't sound like a
S2: fun time, but it still makes for a gripping kind
S2: of viewing. Yeah, I again, this to me feels like
S2: a show that is very considered in terms of like, okay,
S2: what does it take to be a crime drama that
S2: is going to elevate you above, you know, the rest
S2: of the many, many crime dramas? And I feel like
S2: this really has it, like particularly with the politics of
S2: the DA's office. Again, we join, I guess, the show
S2: when there's like a political race to be head of
S2: the Da. And, um, you know, Jake Gyllenhaal's character is
S2: kind of wedded to the outgoing Da. And so there's
S2: like a political element there. And yeah, I just feel
S2: like it's it's very much a well-rounded show. And it is,
S2: of course like a crime drama. But that's not exactly
S2: all it's offering, even though, you know, it does get
S2: very graphic and it.
S1: Is quite a graphic show. And this is Jake's first
S1: small screen leading role. I thought he was very good.
S1: I thought he was. He stole the show in all
S1: the ways. Um, I, he brings and my heart, of
S1: course he brings what? Um, he's so good at doing
S1: that kind of dark, mysterious, broody, kind of slightly unhinged
S1: character that stole Taylor's scarf, um, from movies. He brings
S1: that to this role so perfectly. Did. What did you
S1: make of Jake? Meg?
S3: Yeah. I thought he was incredible. I mean, he's got that. Yeah, really.
S3: Manic face is bulging eyes. I love a really beautiful
S3: pretty boy who's not afraid to be ugly in every way.
S3: It makes the best viewing. Like this is a man
S3: who could have just been doing rom coms his entire career,
S3: but he is doing the weirdest stuff in film. I
S3: can't wait to see what he does on TV. Yeah, yeah.
S1: He really does that slightly kinda unhinged thing, so. Well, yeah.
S2: Although that being said, I don't know if either of
S2: you guys watch Roadhouse. He's like most recent film, which.
S3: Was I've been meaning to I've been meaning, oh my God,
S3: is it.
S2: Good? It's so bad. Like it's like it's a remake
S2: of the Patrick Swayze film. It's like. I think it's
S2: an Amazon film. I watched it mostly because, like, Conor
S2: McGregor is in it. I was curious to see like
S2: him acting. It was it was bad as I imagined.
S2: But Roadhouse again, like, I don't know why I'm so
S2: obsessed with people's IMDb profiles today, but like, such a
S2: bad movie. Yeah. It's like, yeah.
S1: Oh, that's a shame I didn't. I watched that one
S1: on Netflix where he plays the ambulance responder and it's
S1: so intense. It's just like an hour of him kind
S1: of making big eye faces. Um, it was kind of
S1: quite claustrophobic.
S2: Yeah. He's actually got, like, a really good body of work.
S2: Have you guys seen prisoners? Like, that's like one of
S2: my all time favorite films.
S1: Zodiac. Yeah.
S2: Zodiac.
S1: Great. David Fincher film. Yeah. Um, well, hopefully we'll be
S1: seeing a lot more of him. Um. You bet. Thomas,
S1: you kind of mentioned, um, a bit earlier that, you know,
S1: we're seeing these crime dramas aspire to be more kind
S1: of like high art, whereas in the 90s and 2000
S1: and Meg's still watching them, we had the kind of
S1: CSIS and the Law and Orders and procedural series. Do
S1: you think that, you know, the kind of talking about
S1: David E Kelley, the Boston Legal era of crime drama
S1: is over?
S2: Well, I guess like yes and no. It's funny because
S2: David E Kelley, like, he both did like the Boston Legal,
S2: which is, you know, that kind of I mean, that
S2: was more of a comedy ish, but that serial show.
S2: And then he also did Big Little Lies and pretty
S2: sure he wrote that. So I mean, he's kind of
S2: got a foot in both camps, but I do think,
S2: you know, we had last year NCIS Sydney premiered. So like,
S2: that level still exists. And there are people like, I
S2: just got back from New York. I don't know if
S2: you guys know, but, um, like, there, you know, you
S2: see so many billboards for shows over there and it's
S2: still like CSI season 5000 or whatever. Like it's still
S2: kind of going on, but it's just like there has
S2: been this massive division now where it's like those shows
S2: exist for some people and whatever, and we'll keep making them.
S2: And if you want to keep watching them, like they'll
S2: always be there. But now it is like this kind
S2: of elevation. It's like we've got the, you know, top
S2: subscriber tier of crime TV shows. And that's what these,
S2: I think definitely play into. And I do think that
S2: that's a format that's been kind of like molded by
S2: like the mayors of East Sound the night of what
S2: was the other HBO one rerun, This city or whatever. Like,
S2: like it's become a genre, like an offshoot of the
S2: original genre where, you know, you got to have like,
S2: probably like a really small town. You've got to explore
S2: the politics of that small town. There's got to be
S2: like racial and gender issues explored, like it's got it.
S1: You've got cast members. Yeah.
S2: And it's like and a similar thing with like, you know,
S2: we talk about so much how True Detective like redefined
S2: TV and stuff. I do think all of those have
S2: kind of come together to like, give us this new
S2: version of crime drama. And if you really, you know,
S2: want to get the big names and stuff, you have
S2: to deliver a product that ticks all those boxes.
S1: Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. Do you think crime
S1: is to prestige these days, Meg? Do you miss the
S1: kind of old school pay? Meg. Yeah.
S3: Well, it's interesting because shows like, you know, CSI and
S3: Law and Order, these are still incredibly popular. Like, I
S3: think the audience numbers would well outweigh these kind of
S3: prestige offerings. There's a reason they're still getting pumped out
S3: at such great pace. But I feel like this show
S3: in particular is such a nice melding of both those worlds,
S3: because in many ways it is just a legal procedural,
S3: and I think eventually will be once they're kind of
S3: in the courtroom deciding the case. And that has that tasty.
S3: Kind of hokey way of drawing you in that these
S3: other shows, do you know what's coming? You know, the
S3: structure of the courtroom drama. But in the other way,
S3: you know, it is a prestige show and that it's
S3: got Jake Gyllenhaal's first role. It's got, you know, this
S3: back story with the text that it's based on, which
S3: is also big name roles. I mean, Harrison Ford in
S3: the original, and then even then it does, you know,
S3: the discourse that surrounds a show like this will have
S3: those kind of broader social concerns. There's a lot of
S3: discussion around the different ways they treat women. And, you know,
S3: this one's not perfect as well. I feel like so
S3: many of the old shots of Caroline, you see from
S3: Jake Gyllenhaal's perspective is like a dead wife shot. It's like, oh,
S3: she's so beautiful and perfect. Like, look at her in
S3: slow motion in this bar. Yeah. Um, but compared to
S3: the film, it's so much better. That was very much, um,
S3: you know, you hear that this, this hard core prosecutors
S3: being killed, and her boss finds out in the office,
S3: and he's like a beautiful, sexy gal like that. No way. Um,
S3: it's like, wow, you knew this woman. You're really shaken up. Um,
S3: and particularly the way that her relationships are brought up
S3: in the original film, she, you know, these erotic thrillers
S3: of the 80s and 90s when any woman had any
S3: kind of active sexual life, it was like deviant in
S3: some way and usually ended in violence in some way.
S3: So Caroline, in the, in the original had a lot
S3: of sexual partners and that was kind of painted her
S3: in a particular light. And so when people find out
S3: about her murder, it's like, well, I suppose that's what happens.
S3: She had.
S1: It coming.
S3: It's really, really bad. Yeah. So at least in this retelling,
S3: you know, she's a human being, um, she's allowed to
S3: have sex and not be murdered. Um, it's an interesting
S3: retelling on that respect. But also, I'd say it's, you know,
S3: I've heard a lot of people who've read the book
S3: and seen the film and are now watching the TV
S3: show and say that it actually has deviations from the
S3: original texts in some ways, and I don't know all
S3: of them because I haven't read the book. Um, but.
S3: I think it's still a really interesting watch if you
S3: have seen those things, because they're really playing with the
S3: text and what twists you think are coming and don't come. Um,
S3: and it may, yeah, it may surprise you. I suppose
S3: even reviewers in the US who have seen everything but
S3: the final episode, they don't know, you know, who actually
S3: did the crime. So we could all be surprised. Yeah.
S1: That's good. We'll keep you watching. Um, yeah. The even
S1: I haven't seen the original, but it is a bit
S1: of a weird representation still of Carolyn, the colleague who
S1: is dead. There are some quite a lot of graphic
S1: shots of her body and the violence against her. And
S1: then there are a lot of kind of flashbacks to
S1: sex scenes. Um, and then I won't say what it is,
S1: but Jake makes a discovery about her, which also then
S1: feeds into a different shaping of her discovery after she's
S1: dead that affects him, that feeds into the shaping of her, um,
S1: maybe in a way that is a bit uneasy, um,
S1: with what they're trying to do with that discovery. But,
S1: I mean, watching both of these shows under the bridge
S1: and presumed innocent back to back, obviously, one is a
S1: true story. One is a fictional. But, you know, it
S1: is hard to ignore that so many of these shows
S1: hinge on really awful things happening to women.
S2: Mhm. Yeah I know it's like it's a, it's a
S2: strange thing because it's like this kind of self-fulfilling problem
S2: of the genre that everyone especially nowadays knows is like
S2: not okay. And yet we can't seem to like break
S2: the like, you look at so many of these shows
S2: and it's just like it's always the same thing. Even like,
S2: you know, thinking about like lots of Australian shows. The 12,
S2: that was a really horrible crime. Like to a young girl.
S2: Like it's it's like we we're all so self aware
S2: that this is the formula and like the pitfalls of
S2: that formula and yet like consistently a new show will
S2: come out and it'll be like a young girl missing
S2: in a small town. Everyone's like, fuck, that looks pretty good.
S2: I might watch it like, I don't know. It's just like,
S2: how do you change that hardwiring of the genre?
S1: Like, yeah, make beyond these two shows. Is it kind
S1: of lazy plotting or is it also kind of a
S1: reflection of the world in which violent crimes are more
S1: likely to be committed against women?
S3: Yeah, I think that's the difficult truth. That's hard to
S3: avoid when you're telling these crime stories and particularly true crime,
S3: in that, you know, it usually is women who are
S3: subject to this kind of violence, and it's usually from men. Um,
S3: so that is hard to get away from in many respects.
S3: I will also shout out deadlock again, though, because that
S3: is based around, uh, men being murdered in a small
S3: town in Tasmania. So a fun spin on the genre.
S1: Yeah. That's, uh. Yeah, that's very true. And I mean,
S1: I think what is interesting about these shows, as opposed
S1: to other, other crime series, is that they do, to
S1: varying levels of success, try to hold space for the
S1: victims as well rounded characters. So they're not just explicitly
S1: a way to move the plot forward or to give
S1: other characters an arc. They do try to hold room
S1: for them. And I think.
S2: Especially with Under the Bridge, that even that kind of
S2: like very meta narrative takes place in the story where,
S2: like Riley Keoughs character is writing this book and she's
S2: kind of like more focused on the salacious details. And
S2: she has these, like, dealings with Rina's family, and that
S2: kind of then begins to shape her, I guess, like
S2: consideration of how much weight she needs to actually give
S2: to the victim. And like, you know, I think that
S2: that show does a pretty good job of it. But yeah,
S2: I mean, like you said, it is probably a sad
S2: reflection of the fact that this is typically how it
S2: tends to go. And so it's hard to like drift
S2: away from that source material too much, which is why
S2: I might just keep watching Vera on ABC, because she's
S2: got that funny little hat. It's always cute. Like, kind
S2: of like county crimes.
S1: You should try Father Brown to nothing like a detective
S1: in a in a collar.
S2: I see. I still, I think for me like one
S2: of the. And lots of people name check this. But
S2: have you guys seen Broadchurch? Like Broadchurch to me is like,
S2: you know, that's a great crime show that doesn't feel
S2: too like, you know, icky.
S3: But how do British filmmakers and TV makers make murder
S3: seem so cute? How does that happen? I'm not really
S3: well-versed in the genre.
S1: Yeah, I think they don't really.
S2: Spend a lot of time watching ABC at night.
S1: They they don't really show a lot of too much
S1: of the graphicness of the crime. And I think it's
S1: just the English way they're repressed, kind of their repression.
S1: They don't really leave room for emotion. You know, they've
S1: got a job to do and and they get it done. Um, also,
S1: I think there's something about because there's so many episodes
S1: in some of those BBC ones that have gone on
S1: for so many years, like they don't really have to
S1: give any emotion because, you know, it's going to be
S1: solved by the end of the episode. And is it.
S2: Happy Valley, another one that's been going on for like
S2: 500 years? Yeah, that's.
S1: Actually a really good show. I'm in shock. I can't
S1: believe I'm here defending British crime. Um, which that does
S1: kind of bring me. Uh, as I was saying, you
S1: can go back and watch all of those episodes. Under
S1: the bridge came out all at once in Australia. Presumed
S1: innocent coming out. Two episodes to start and then week
S1: by week. Do you prefer your crime served up to
S1: you in one sitting, or do you? How do you
S1: feel about the week by week?
S2: Uh, no, actually, I think particularly with a presumed innocence.
S2: Even though I was like really into it. I think
S2: that suits perfectly a weekly drop. I just like it's
S2: a bit too much to take in and you can't
S2: really like. I think the episodes are like close to
S2: an hour. Um, you probably need to like, marinate on
S2: it a little bit under the bridge, I thought wasn't
S2: as like probably like suited. You could just, like, go
S2: at your own pace. But I think generally with these
S2: crime shows, it's better to have them like teased out
S2: week over week. You don't want to be like, it's
S2: a lot.
S1: Yeah. I also feel like because Presumed Innocent, the concept
S1: is quite simple. You don't. It's okay to wait a week.
S1: Like you're not going to forget. Who was that character?
S1: What were they doing? What is this plot? Whereas Under
S1: the Bridge has so much going on that I think
S1: watching it week by week, you could very easily forget
S1: where you're up to and lose your way in that
S1: story and.
S2: Multiple timelines and stuff as well.
S1: Yeah, yeah, it becomes a bit more confusing. It is a.
S3: Bit a shame though, because I mean, you know, I've
S3: seen three episodes of Under the Bridge now and you've
S3: seen the full series and you don't get to discuss
S3: it in the same way. There's not that kind of,
S3: you know, what do you think is happening here? What
S3: do you think's happening with this person? Who do you
S3: think did it? Because everyone's experiencing it at different times,
S3: which is a bit of a shame.
S1: Yeah. You kind of miss the watercooler moment. Um, which
S1: I feel presumed innocent has, particularly if it has for sure. Yeah.
S1: A generation of those episodes.
S3: All. Boy, they get you.
S1: Yeah. Good. All right. Let's move on to impressing our friends.
S2: Or as you wrote in the script, recommendations for friends,
S2: even though the segment is called Impress Your Friends every
S2: single week.
S10: That's like.
S3: Um, she's putting her own stamp on it. Okay. Yeah, that's.
S1: Like a more austere one. Like this.
S10: Recommendations for friends by Melanie.
S1: Kimmy. Friends you may have. All right. Recommend to us
S1: your friends. Thomas.
S2: Uh, well, my one is a bit of a strange
S2: one this week. Um, it's actually the new David Sedaris
S2: longread in the New Yorker. I don't know if you
S2: guys know, but I was recently in New York.
S1: You also love David Sedaris.
S10: I do love I.
S2: Mean, that's not, like, a weird.
S10: Thing.
S1: No, I know, but I think you are, like, a
S1: true fanboy.
S2: Yeah, I love Sedaris, and I think, you.
S10: Know, which I like.
S2: Meg. Do you like Sedaris?
S3: I do the idea of you reading, uh, Sedaris article
S3: in the New Yorker in New York while eating a
S3: bagel and thinking about your bagel business is extremely funny, but.
S2: Like, it's like, fucking not far off, to.
S10: Be honest. Uh, no, but.
S2: I bought I actually bought a bunch of magazines while
S2: I was there because I was like, that's kind of
S2: what you do when you're overseas. I don't buy magazines
S2: any other times. But I bought, like it's kind of
S2: a novelty too, because I got like Vanity Fair, The
S2: New Yorker and, um, some other fucking magazine anyway.
S3: But like, shout out print media.
S2: But I just bought it because I was in a bookshop.
S2: And then I opened it up and I was like, oh,
S2: there's actually a Sedaris story in here. And he doesn't
S2: write for them that often anymore. And yes, I do
S2: really like him. Um, saw him last time he came
S2: out at the opera house. Did you actually kind of
S2: a weird show, to be honest. He's he's going drifting
S2: a little bit into, like, the kind of weird older
S2: man woke like weird older man. Like, I hate cancel
S2: culture territory, but that's a story for another day.
S10: So it's fun.
S2: Anyway, impress your friends with this David Sedaris longread because
S2: it actually is really funny. Um, it's called notes on
S2: a Last Minute Safari, and it's basically as many of
S2: his stories are. It's just about a trip he and
S2: his husband, Hugh, took to Kenya a last minute safari.
S2: And it's very, very funny. He talks about kind of
S2: the strange dichotomy of being like on these, like, you know,
S2: made for tourists tours, but then also staying in what
S2: he calls the most glamorous tent that he's ever been in.
S2: It's like better than most apartments he's ever owned. So yeah,
S2: it is classic Sedaris. Very funny, I enjoyed it. Um,
S2: can recommend specifically eating a bagel while enjoying it in, uh,
S2: the Lower.
S10: East Side, a bagel.
S1: From Thomas Mitchell's new bagel.
S10: Business.
S2: Yeah, yeah. Watch this space for the bagel business coming soon.
S1: Can I ask? I used to be very into David Sedaris.
S10: And. And did you grow out of it? No.
S1: But I did. He's very obviously very good at what
S1: he does. But is he still. I feel like once
S1: you've read, like, a lot of David Sedaris, you kind
S1: of get his thing. And I kind of grew out
S1: of it.
S10: Oh my God, you're kidding.
S1: I'm kidding. But, um.
S10: I mean, you're not kidding his style.
S1: I mean, I haven't read his stuff for, like, a
S1: long time. I mean, has he changed his style or
S1: he's still doing what he does really well?
S10: Yeah, I think, like.
S2: I mean, yeah, sadly for my simple tastes, Melanie, uh, I,
S2: I enjoy what he does. I think he's funny. Like. Yeah,
S2: I agree, like, I've read I've read all of his books.
S2: They all give you the same thing. You probably don't
S2: want to like you can't read them back to back
S2: to back. But yeah, I think he's a really funny writer. And, um,
S2: sometimes I just want to have a laugh while I
S2: am reading.
S10: Thank you for your recommended.
S2: For me, for me and the other. Like people who
S2: like the low hanging fruit, um, read, read, read notes
S2: on a last minute safari by David Sedaris.
S10: And then, I don't know, I love the.
S3: The segment's called Impress Your Friends, and you've only been
S3: roasted by a.
S10: Friend. Yeah, exactly.
S1: Well, that's why we rebranded.
S10: It as a.
S1: Recommendation for.
S10: Your friend. It'll impress my dumb friends.
S2: Um, if you're friends with Melanie, then obviously, uh, check
S2: out parade, the new Cusk. Um, it's completely fucking incomprehensible, but.
S1: All right. Meg, what? Are you okay? Yeah, like. I'm sorry.
S1: I've made this a very antagonistic section.
S10: All right, all right. Meg, what have you got?
S1: Sorry. It's happened. Um, Meg, what have you got for us?
S3: Um, I have got an album because I don't have
S3: much TV to recommend on Tenplay. Unfortunately, um, it's Jessica
S3: Pratt's new album here in the pitch, which came out
S3: last month, but I'm slow to getting getting to this week. Um,
S3: and also her music generally. I mean, this is her
S3: fourth album. She's been around for a while. The kind
S3: of person who her songs pop up in Spotify playlists
S3: all the time when I'm just like, oh, songs for
S3: a Rainy walk. And it's like, oh, so dreamy, so nice. Um,
S3: but this album in particular is really great for people
S3: who don't know her. She's a singer songwriter from the
S3: US who's been compared to Joni Mitchell a lot. She
S3: does folk music, but kind of like ethereal, psychedelic folk
S3: type stuff. This album in particular was, um, inspired by
S3: LA and like the late 60s, so it's got deep
S3: Manson vibes for all those motorheads out there. Um, this
S3: kind of sunny and sinister mix, which, uh, is really
S3: nice listening at the moment when you know you're in
S3: a cold, wintry Melbourne morning and want to feel like
S3: you're in sunny 60s L.A..
S1: I think that is so true. Meg, I really agree
S1: with this recommendation, mainly because I.
S10: Made it a few weeks ago. Did I missed it?
S1: I think this album is so good that I reckon
S1: we can have it twice on there just for, uh,
S1: people who haven't listened to it because it's quite it's
S1: it's a short album too, but you just feel like I.
S3: Was just going to say it's nice. It's like nine songs.
S3: It's so digestible. You don't feel overwhelmed by the content
S3: of some other creators. Um, would.
S10: I get it.
S2: Or would I?
S10: I reckon I could see you with your.
S1: New Yorker and.
S10: Your bagel and listening to.
S1: These kind of folky sounds. I think you'd love.
S2: It as long as you could be there to explain.
S10: It to me. Oh, here we go. What's yours? Okay.
S1: Mine is, um, is Queenie, which is on Disney Plus.
S1: It's based on the book, um, Candice Carty-williams book. Uh,
S1: it's a eight episode series. It's kind of a coming
S1: of age. It's set in south London. It follows the
S1: main characters. Queenie's kind of. She has a break up
S1: and then recovering from that. But it's got a lot
S1: about her family dynamic as well. Look, it's a really
S1: watchable show that's getting better with every episode. I'm about
S1: four episodes in, um, but it's a really good depiction of, um,
S1: South London Gen Z. Um, there's lots going on in it,
S1: but it's also very funny. Um, so if you're looking
S1: for a kind of nice show, um, change.
S10: Of pace from the.
S2: Many murders.
S10: From the many murders.
S1: This is a good one. It's got a lot of heart. Um,
S1: at the same time as. It's very funny. And I
S1: like all the shots of, um, London as well.
S3: Did you say it was on Disney+? It's on.
S1: Disney+.
S10: Yeah. So you can't watch Meg, unfortunately. Well, yeah.
S3: One more day. One more day. Um, I feel I
S3: feel like there's a lot of good stuff going under
S3: the radar on Disney at the moment. I mean, that
S3: was clipped as on Disney. We talked about that last week. Yeah.
S3: Worth checking out when.
S2: They're coming soon and then everything will.
S10: Be as it should be.
S3: And then everyone discovers all the shows that they've missed.
S1: Yeah, yeah. It is like that, isn't it? When you
S1: go onto a stream you haven't looked at in a
S1: while and you're like, oh, there's I'll sit with this
S1: for the next day or two. Do you have a.
S3: Little countdown timer, Thomas, for the season drop of the bear?
S2: Uh, no, I don't I'm obviously very excited. And look,
S2: in one of the I think it was the Vanity
S2: Fair that I read. Ayo Edebiri was on the cover. Um,
S2: actually really interesting interview, blah, blah, blah, but she I
S2: didn't realize.
S3: Um, are you trying to do a second recommendation because
S3: your first flopped? Yeah.
S2: I stand by it. Me and all the Sedaris heads
S2: just getting confused by left and right. But the she
S2: basically worked as a barista at this, uh, restaurant in
S2: New York called ABC kitchen. And the day I read
S2: the story, I went there for dinner. Wow.
S10: Because of that? No, no, no.
S2: No, like before, like when she, like, lived in New
S2: York and was like, just studying acting or whatever and
S2: was like a barista there and then. Yeah. So that
S2: was a fun tie in.
S1: Wow. That's great. There you go. You didn't see any
S1: anyone famous? But you got to go.
S10: Yes, I got to have person at work. Yes.
S2: Close proximity to where I once worked, which is good
S2: enough for me.
S1: What a highlight. Well, thank you so much, guys. We'll
S1: be back next week to No Doubt. Talk about the bear.
S10: Yes thanks guys Joe.
S3: Thank you. Bye.
S1: This episode of The Drop was produced by Kai Wong.
S1: If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop,
S1: make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast app.
S1: Leave us a review or better yet, share it with
S1: a friend. I'm Melanie Kimbrough and we'll see you next week.