1 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:06,640 S1: By now, you've probably seen the Reddit threads blowing up 2 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:09,960 S1: over which movie should win the Best Picture Oscar today. 3 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:14,880 S1: How can Ryan Coogler's Sinners, a vampire horror musical set 4 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:18,919 S1: in the Jim Crow era, not win, say, angry cinephiles, 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:23,560 S1: noting that it's also the most nominated film in Oscar history. 6 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:28,160 S1: And yet, one battle after another, the Leonardo DiCaprio starring 7 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:31,440 S1: film about a government that has devolved into an authoritarian 8 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:36,440 S1: regime is touted as the favorite. I'm Samantha Sellinger Morris, 9 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,200 S1: and you're listening to The Morning Edition from The Age 10 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:43,440 S1: and The Sydney Morning Herald. Today, senior culture writer Karl 11 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:47,279 S1: Quinn and culture and lifestyle writer Nell Jarrett's on which 12 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,320 S1: films tend to win at the Oscars and which often 13 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:54,480 S1: get shut out, and whether Timothee Chalamet will, yes, be 14 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:58,200 S1: punished for those comments about the ballet and the opera. 15 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:06,090 S1: It's March the 16th. Welcome Carl and Nell to the podcast. 16 00:01:06,130 --> 00:01:06,930 S2: Thanks for having us. 17 00:01:07,650 --> 00:01:09,970 S1: Okay, Carl, let's start off with you. Can you just 18 00:01:09,970 --> 00:01:12,730 S1: tell us how the Oscars actually work in terms of 19 00:01:12,730 --> 00:01:16,050 S1: the voting system? Like how much does popularity come into it? 20 00:01:16,090 --> 00:01:19,010 S1: Does that sway those who are voting or is it 21 00:01:19,010 --> 00:01:19,810 S1: something else? 22 00:01:20,370 --> 00:01:22,090 S2: I think the one thing to know is it is 23 00:01:22,090 --> 00:01:25,570 S2: a popularity contest, but it's a popularity contest amongst a 24 00:01:25,610 --> 00:01:31,410 S2: subset which is Academy members. And there's around about 10,000 25 00:01:31,450 --> 00:01:33,610 S2: of them, and that's up from it was just under 26 00:01:33,610 --> 00:01:36,410 S2: 6000 a bit over a decade ago. So they've they've 27 00:01:36,450 --> 00:01:38,770 S2: expanded it considerably. And part of that was out of 28 00:01:38,770 --> 00:01:41,970 S2: the the whole there was a famous survey that the 29 00:01:41,970 --> 00:01:44,890 S2: Los Angeles Times did which found that, you know, the 30 00:01:44,890 --> 00:01:47,170 S2: average age of an Oscar voter was, I think it 31 00:01:47,170 --> 00:01:50,010 S2: was 67. And most of them were white and most 32 00:01:50,010 --> 00:01:52,169 S2: of them were male. So there was a real push 33 00:01:52,170 --> 00:01:54,450 S2: towards diversity. And that that has. Okay. 34 00:01:54,450 --> 00:01:55,210 S1: But who are they? 35 00:01:55,370 --> 00:01:57,490 S2: They were members of guilds in the first instance. So 36 00:01:57,530 --> 00:01:59,850 S2: there are cinematographers. There are actors, there are directors, there 37 00:01:59,850 --> 00:02:02,410 S2: are people who are members of these various guilds. So 38 00:02:02,410 --> 00:02:07,090 S2: the guild memberships, uh, make their nominations in their respective 39 00:02:07,090 --> 00:02:12,010 S2: fields and they that's the first stage. And then, uh, those, 40 00:02:12,330 --> 00:02:15,089 S2: those sort of long lists get reduced to a short list. 41 00:02:15,090 --> 00:02:18,210 S2: And then out of those come the nominees, and then 42 00:02:18,250 --> 00:02:21,010 S2: all the members of the, of the academy get to vote. 43 00:02:21,010 --> 00:02:23,050 S1: But how is it a popularity contest? How does that go? 44 00:02:23,090 --> 00:02:26,090 S2: Because there's still people, because these are still people who 45 00:02:26,090 --> 00:02:29,329 S2: are having conversations with everybody else about like, who do 46 00:02:29,330 --> 00:02:31,929 S2: you like? What have you seen? What's good? So there's 47 00:02:31,970 --> 00:02:35,290 S2: a kind of self-reinforcing chatter. And Hollywood is a, it's 48 00:02:35,290 --> 00:02:38,050 S2: an industry town. So people there are all talking about 49 00:02:38,130 --> 00:02:41,370 S2: what they're liking, who's, who's, you know, hot at the moment, 50 00:02:41,410 --> 00:02:43,530 S2: you know, so there is a popularity element to it, 51 00:02:43,530 --> 00:02:49,730 S2: no question. So it is about acknowledging craft because these 52 00:02:49,730 --> 00:02:52,089 S2: people know what it takes to do these things. So 53 00:02:52,090 --> 00:02:54,850 S2: they they bring a certain degree of expertise to any 54 00:02:54,889 --> 00:02:57,250 S2: of this, but they're voting outside of their field of 55 00:02:57,419 --> 00:03:00,260 S2: expertise as well. You know, so they're they're being swayed 56 00:03:00,260 --> 00:03:03,020 S2: by discussion. They're being swayed by sentiment. They're being swayed 57 00:03:03,020 --> 00:03:06,220 S2: by is this. Leo? Leo DiCaprio's year, you know, has 58 00:03:06,220 --> 00:03:07,260 S2: he has he earned it? 59 00:03:07,300 --> 00:03:09,260 S3: Well, let's get into that. Like, like. 60 00:03:09,300 --> 00:03:12,620 S1: How many winners, regardless of what category they're in, is 61 00:03:12,620 --> 00:03:15,020 S1: it because this is just that person's moment? You know, 62 00:03:15,060 --> 00:03:18,260 S1: it isn't necessarily the best male performance or it isn't 63 00:03:18,260 --> 00:03:21,260 S1: necessarily the best picture, but for instance, parasite, you know, 64 00:03:21,300 --> 00:03:24,940 S1: perhaps there were previous films in previous years that were 65 00:03:24,940 --> 00:03:28,020 S1: foreign language that absolutely many people would have thought that 66 00:03:28,020 --> 00:03:31,139 S1: was the best film, but was the guild just not, 67 00:03:31,340 --> 00:03:34,340 S1: I don't know, enlightened enough to realize these films do 68 00:03:34,340 --> 00:03:36,140 S1: not need to be in English. You know, English isn't 69 00:03:36,140 --> 00:03:37,740 S1: the be all and end all. Like is it sometimes 70 00:03:37,740 --> 00:03:40,980 S1: just about when the guild catches up with, I guess, 71 00:03:41,420 --> 00:03:43,180 S1: the films where they are, you know what I mean? 72 00:03:43,220 --> 00:03:46,780 S4: I feel like that probably is often the case in. 73 00:03:46,820 --> 00:03:51,420 S4: In parasite's case, I reckon that absolutely deserved the win 74 00:03:51,420 --> 00:03:54,540 S4: no matter what for the film that it is, but 75 00:03:54,540 --> 00:03:57,470 S4: I think there definitely is a bit of the guilt feeling. 76 00:03:57,470 --> 00:03:59,670 S4: They may potentially have to catch up a little bit 77 00:03:59,710 --> 00:04:01,630 S4: if that is the case. And if you know, that 78 00:04:01,630 --> 00:04:05,430 S4: could be proven without a shadow of a doubt. I 79 00:04:05,470 --> 00:04:08,790 S4: feel like that's really disappointing, you know, and I feel 80 00:04:08,790 --> 00:04:14,190 S4: like that almost the oscarj to a certain degree, because 81 00:04:14,550 --> 00:04:17,910 S4: you want a film or a film maker or an 82 00:04:17,910 --> 00:04:21,430 S4: actor or an actress or whoever to win for a 83 00:04:21,430 --> 00:04:24,670 S4: project that deserves that win. You know, you want it 84 00:04:24,670 --> 00:04:27,670 S4: to align with what they created that year or the 85 00:04:27,670 --> 00:04:31,110 S4: year prior. And so it, it that just all of 86 00:04:31,110 --> 00:04:35,350 S4: a sudden feels strangely, almost like political. If, you know, 87 00:04:35,390 --> 00:04:37,309 S4: we're getting to a point where all of a sudden 88 00:04:37,310 --> 00:04:41,190 S4: the guild is like, ah, okay, you know, Leo hasn't 89 00:04:41,190 --> 00:04:44,630 S4: gotten his award yet. His, you know, best actor award yet. 90 00:04:44,670 --> 00:04:47,990 S4: Let's let's just give it this time when probably there 91 00:04:47,990 --> 00:04:51,630 S4: are earlier films in which he was far more deserving 92 00:04:51,950 --> 00:04:52,750 S4: for that. 93 00:04:52,750 --> 00:04:54,430 S1: But so many of us do think that, right? We 94 00:04:54,470 --> 00:04:56,920 S1: watch the Oscars every year and we go, oh my God, 95 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:58,920 S1: they gave it to this person because they should have 96 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,000 S1: got it for the other film that they were nominated 97 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:01,920 S1: for X many years. 98 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,480 S2: For me, the classic example of that was Al Pacino 99 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:07,719 S2: winning for scent of a woman. I think it was 1992, 100 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,880 S2: and I think that was maybe his. Maybe I'm going 101 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,680 S2: to say it was his seventh or eighth nomination. He 102 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,200 S2: he had done much, much better work before that. 103 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:18,800 S1: That was really not an amazing. No. 104 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:21,040 S2: It wasn't an amazing film. I mean, what I take 105 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,200 S2: away from that film is Al Pacino going, ooh. And 106 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:25,080 S2: that was like, that was. 107 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:26,760 S4: To be fair, it's now very famous. 108 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,240 S1: But did he get did he get any Oscar noms 109 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:30,919 S1: for Serpico? 110 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,480 S2: Yeah, he got Dog Day, afternoon, Serpico, The Godfather, you know, 111 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:38,560 S2: like he he had done an incredible body of work 112 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,320 S2: which had not won him, you know, I mean, been nominated. 113 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:43,280 S2: So he got the. 114 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:45,520 S1: But is it political? Like, for instance, one of those 115 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,160 S1: films he was nominated for, I think, you know, features 116 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:51,520 S1: a transvestite character. So when that movie came out, Dog 117 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:55,280 S1: Day Afternoon was the guild perhaps just not ready, you know? 118 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:57,160 S1: Were they like, oh, that's a bit too far out 119 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:58,200 S1: for us. When. Of course. 120 00:05:58,240 --> 00:05:59,680 S2: Look, I think you'd have to you'd have to drill 121 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:01,920 S2: down and see, well, who else was in the field 122 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,560 S2: and who won. And I can't I can't cite that 123 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:06,120 S2: off the top of my head. But I mean, I 124 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:09,360 S2: would just say that sometimes I've heard the theory that 125 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:13,240 S2: sometimes an actor like and this could be a factor with, uh, 126 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,440 S2: Timothée Chalamet this year, right? Sometimes an actor bursts out 127 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,000 S2: of the blocks and they're doing great work early in 128 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,640 S2: their career. Leonardo DiCaprio, the there's a theory that it 129 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:26,280 S2: took him. Gilbert Grape, so it took him years to 130 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:31,080 S2: win because he'd been, you know, people go, oh, he's young, 131 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,360 S2: he's doing great work. He'll be around forever. Right? He'll 132 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:37,480 S2: have his chance. Right. So that happens with particularly with 133 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:41,000 S2: male actors, maybe slightly less so with female actors, because 134 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,599 S2: there's tended to be a sense that they have a 135 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,880 S2: shorter working life. I think that's increasingly not not the 136 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,520 S2: case now, but that has historically been the case. So 137 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,799 S2: I think maybe there's a there's a sort of like 138 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:55,170 S2: a lot of this stuff is like, it's ineffable. It's 139 00:06:55,170 --> 00:06:57,570 S2: it's sentiment and it's a perception and it's a kind 140 00:06:57,570 --> 00:06:59,130 S2: of like, how do you make sense of what went 141 00:06:59,130 --> 00:07:02,170 S2: on rather than like, well, this is definitely what's going 142 00:07:02,170 --> 00:07:04,890 S2: on here. You can't say with certainty, but I do think, yeah, 143 00:07:04,930 --> 00:07:07,529 S2: with with DiCaprio, that that was the case. It probably 144 00:07:07,529 --> 00:07:10,130 S2: was the case with Pacino. It was probably the case 145 00:07:10,130 --> 00:07:14,050 S2: with Dustin Hoffman, which may may be something with Shalom 146 00:07:14,090 --> 00:07:16,370 S2: this year, right? I mean, on the Shalom thing, let's 147 00:07:16,370 --> 00:07:19,130 S2: just make it clear he is not going to not 148 00:07:19,170 --> 00:07:21,010 S2: win the actor because of what he said about opera 149 00:07:21,010 --> 00:07:24,650 S2: and ballet. That is nonsense. The voting was already closed, right? 150 00:07:24,690 --> 00:07:25,250 S4: So whatever. 151 00:07:25,570 --> 00:07:27,890 S2: Whatever people thought about that and what he said about 152 00:07:27,930 --> 00:07:30,650 S2: opera and ballet, it will have no bearing on whether 153 00:07:30,650 --> 00:07:32,810 S2: or not he wins. It may have a bearing on 154 00:07:32,810 --> 00:07:35,450 S2: how people respond. If he wins, you know, if he 155 00:07:35,450 --> 00:07:36,290 S2: gets up on stage. 156 00:07:36,330 --> 00:07:38,810 S1: Right. And let's just clarify, of course, we're talking about 157 00:07:38,810 --> 00:07:41,730 S1: what he said about ballet and opera. Basically, no one 158 00:07:41,730 --> 00:07:44,890 S1: going to see them. People have freaked out online. 159 00:07:45,090 --> 00:07:47,170 S5: And I don't want to be working in ballet or 160 00:07:47,210 --> 00:07:49,730 S5: opera or, you know, things where it's like, hey, keep 161 00:07:49,730 --> 00:07:51,010 S5: this thing alive, even though. 162 00:07:51,010 --> 00:07:52,900 S6: It's like, no one cares about this anymore. 163 00:07:53,060 --> 00:07:55,300 S5: All respect to the ballet and opera people out there. 164 00:07:56,140 --> 00:07:58,260 S5: I just lost $0.14 in viewership. 165 00:07:59,340 --> 00:08:01,860 S1: You're saying, though, the people who vote, they're just human. 166 00:08:01,860 --> 00:08:03,980 S1: They're swayed by all kinds of just, you know, petty 167 00:08:04,020 --> 00:08:06,100 S1: human emotions. Why will they not be swayed? 168 00:08:06,220 --> 00:08:09,780 S2: Because voting was already closed. Voting was already closed. They'd 169 00:08:09,780 --> 00:08:12,540 S2: already cast their votes. It's a simple timeline thing, right? 170 00:08:12,580 --> 00:08:15,980 S2: So what he said lobbed after voting closed. 171 00:08:16,020 --> 00:08:18,140 S1: Okay. So do you think that it would have impacted 172 00:08:18,220 --> 00:08:20,420 S1: had it fallen before voting? 173 00:08:20,620 --> 00:08:21,340 S2: It could have gone either way. 174 00:08:21,380 --> 00:08:25,460 S4: I reckon it could have. With the insane backlash that 175 00:08:25,460 --> 00:08:28,060 S4: he's gotten in a matter of days, I reckon it 176 00:08:28,060 --> 00:08:34,180 S4: absolutely could have made a difference. But I will say 177 00:08:34,179 --> 00:08:37,700 S4: with Timmy, it's. I have to call him Timmy. I 178 00:08:37,860 --> 00:08:42,700 S4: know him as nothing else in Timmy's case. I feel 179 00:08:42,700 --> 00:08:46,579 S4: like he's really kind of leaned into oversaturation territory, even 180 00:08:46,580 --> 00:08:50,780 S4: well before the ballet and opera comments, and so I 181 00:08:50,820 --> 00:08:54,750 S4: am really intrigued to see what what direction the Best 182 00:08:54,750 --> 00:08:58,510 S4: Actor category goes in because I. If Michael B Jordan wins, 183 00:08:58,510 --> 00:09:02,470 S4: I will be over the moon. I think playing twins 184 00:09:02,510 --> 00:09:05,270 S4: is feat enough for sinners. Like just that would be 185 00:09:05,270 --> 00:09:10,870 S4: incredibly challenging. And he creates two such distinct characters throughout that, 186 00:09:10,910 --> 00:09:14,150 S4: you know, you really connect to, to me and Marty Supreme, 187 00:09:14,150 --> 00:09:18,190 S4: he's wonderful and you really believe he's embodying that character. 188 00:09:18,190 --> 00:09:23,070 S4: He is that awful character, but it's almost like he 189 00:09:23,070 --> 00:09:26,150 S4: took too many of those traits into his real life 190 00:09:26,150 --> 00:09:30,990 S4: while campaigning during awards season, and I'm very curious to 191 00:09:31,030 --> 00:09:32,750 S4: see if he has kind of shot himself in the 192 00:09:32,750 --> 00:09:33,550 S4: foot a little bit. 193 00:09:33,590 --> 00:09:35,510 S1: Okay, well, let's well, let's get into these films that 194 00:09:35,510 --> 00:09:37,510 S1: we're referencing here, because now I'm going to go to 195 00:09:37,550 --> 00:09:39,670 S1: you here for a minute because before we started recording, 196 00:09:39,670 --> 00:09:42,230 S1: the three of us were chatting about the big contenders, 197 00:09:42,230 --> 00:09:45,110 S1: of course, for this year's Oscars for Best Picture. And 198 00:09:45,110 --> 00:09:47,670 S1: now we chatted about a couple of them that are 199 00:09:47,670 --> 00:09:50,589 S1: not only major contenders, but they're also aligned with certain 200 00:09:50,590 --> 00:09:53,310 S1: issues that people are getting very fired up about now. 201 00:09:53,550 --> 00:09:56,510 S1: And of course, we are talking about sinners and one 202 00:09:56,510 --> 00:09:59,030 S1: battle after another. So tell us about these films. Why 203 00:09:59,030 --> 00:10:00,790 S1: do you think they're such contenders? And what is it 204 00:10:00,790 --> 00:10:03,910 S1: that you see that they're aligning with now? Tell us 205 00:10:03,910 --> 00:10:04,550 S1: about that. 206 00:10:04,750 --> 00:10:08,590 S4: So I'll start with sinners. That's basically Ryan Coogler's take 207 00:10:08,590 --> 00:10:12,750 S4: on the vampire genre. Essentially, for those who haven't seen 208 00:10:12,750 --> 00:10:16,750 S4: the film, the gist of it is twin gangsters return 209 00:10:16,750 --> 00:10:20,350 S4: to their hometown in Mississippi during the Jim Crow era, 210 00:10:20,670 --> 00:10:23,829 S4: and they want to open a juke joint, but over time, 211 00:10:23,830 --> 00:10:28,470 S4: it becomes overrun by vampires. That's basically the film, put simply. Ultimately, 212 00:10:28,510 --> 00:10:31,990 S4: the movie. It's a metaphor for the exploitation of black 213 00:10:31,990 --> 00:10:38,550 S4: culture and specifically the commodification of blues blues music by 214 00:10:38,550 --> 00:10:42,710 S4: white led studios. And so the vampires themselves, at least 215 00:10:42,710 --> 00:10:48,390 S4: in part, they pretty much represent, like white appropriators, literally 216 00:10:48,390 --> 00:10:53,079 S4: sucking the creative energy or you know, the soul out 217 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:57,160 S4: of black art? Without, you know, enduring the associated traumas. 218 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:02,280 S7: Let me in, man. There's some weird shit going on 219 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:02,840 S7: out here. 220 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:07,240 S4: Then on the other side, the other massive contender this 221 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,600 S4: year is one battle after another, as you said. That's 222 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:15,200 S4: Paul Thomas Anderson's film. It's largely about a washed up 223 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:19,440 S4: revolutionary who's living off the grid, but he's ultimately forced 224 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:23,280 S4: back into the radical life when his daughter comes under 225 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,560 S4: threat from an old enemy. Um, one of the best names, 226 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,559 S4: I think, in movie history, Colonel Lockjaw, like. Come on. 227 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:31,640 S4: That name is just fantastic. 228 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:32,040 S1: Yeah. 229 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:34,479 S8: The rebellion text a little harder. 230 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:36,199 S9: I need to find my daughter. 231 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:38,720 S8: Well, then call us back when you have the time. 232 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:41,960 S4: And so what's going on beneath the surface in that 233 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,280 S4: film is that it's really exploring, I think, sort of 234 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:52,610 S4: that exhausting, cyclical nature of ideological conflict, right? Like kind 235 00:11:52,610 --> 00:11:57,850 S4: of asking that question, can true revolution ever really end 236 00:11:57,890 --> 00:12:01,770 S4: or can it ever really properly be accomplished? And then 237 00:12:01,809 --> 00:12:05,010 S4: at the same time, it's also, you know, critiquing the 238 00:12:05,050 --> 00:12:09,450 S4: sort of self-destructive nature of extremism and that's on, you know, 239 00:12:09,490 --> 00:12:12,650 S4: any side or both sides, whatever it may be. And 240 00:12:12,690 --> 00:12:17,170 S4: kind of, I guess, also highlighting the potential consequences of 241 00:12:17,170 --> 00:12:20,530 S4: political obsession as well, because there are a lot of 242 00:12:20,530 --> 00:12:22,690 S4: people in that film who you could say are sort 243 00:12:22,690 --> 00:12:25,610 S4: of politically obsessed in a way. And so you only 244 00:12:25,610 --> 00:12:28,570 S4: really need to take one look, particularly at the US 245 00:12:28,570 --> 00:12:30,850 S4: right now, I'd say, to sort of see how timely 246 00:12:31,290 --> 00:12:37,130 S4: these two movies are, you know, racism, immigration, disillusionment in 247 00:12:37,170 --> 00:12:43,569 S4: like current political and cultural structures. This is also incredibly 248 00:12:43,570 --> 00:12:47,490 S4: present right now. And both of these movies really touch 249 00:12:47,530 --> 00:12:51,250 S4: on those themes quite heavily. So it's kind of no wonder, 250 00:12:51,250 --> 00:12:53,610 S4: I think, that so many people have jumped on them 251 00:12:54,010 --> 00:12:55,010 S4: so feverishly. 252 00:12:56,050 --> 00:13:04,130 S1: We'll be right back. Karl, do you agree? Do you 253 00:13:04,130 --> 00:13:08,010 S1: feel like there are films this year that their main contenders? Yes, 254 00:13:08,010 --> 00:13:11,010 S1: because they're fantastic films, but also perhaps partly because they're 255 00:13:11,010 --> 00:13:13,329 S1: aligning with what we are seeing in the real world. 256 00:13:13,370 --> 00:13:16,730 S2: Yeah, absolutely. And it's fascinating. I mean, I think one battle, 257 00:13:16,970 --> 00:13:19,250 S2: I'm not sure that it's that it has a really 258 00:13:19,250 --> 00:13:22,850 S2: clear political political position, but it absolutely speaks to something 259 00:13:22,850 --> 00:13:26,209 S2: about the moment we're in. And I think it's, it's, uh, 260 00:13:26,210 --> 00:13:28,410 S2: it's one of a, you know, it sits amongst a 261 00:13:28,410 --> 00:13:31,850 S2: cluster of films. I'd put Eddington and Civil War and 262 00:13:31,850 --> 00:13:34,290 S2: even Begonia into the same space. In a way. They're 263 00:13:34,290 --> 00:13:37,570 S2: all films about the collapse of the centre in, in, uh, 264 00:13:37,610 --> 00:13:41,410 S2: in American political life in particular, but more broadly, Western 265 00:13:41,410 --> 00:13:45,369 S2: political life. And I think they, they just have enormous, 266 00:13:45,370 --> 00:13:49,220 S2: enormous kind of, uh, pertinence to the moment we're in. 267 00:13:49,220 --> 00:13:52,540 S2: But one battle also manages to be just a rip 268 00:13:52,580 --> 00:13:56,819 S2: roaring kind of, you know, adventure kind of, you know, 269 00:13:56,940 --> 00:14:00,340 S2: action movie with one of the best sort of chase 270 00:14:00,340 --> 00:14:02,459 S2: scenes I've seen since Bullitt. It's just amazing, you know, 271 00:14:02,500 --> 00:14:04,420 S2: it's like unbelievable. So it gives you it gives you 272 00:14:04,460 --> 00:14:07,300 S2: just that pure visceral thrill, whether or not you buy 273 00:14:07,300 --> 00:14:08,940 S2: into what it's got to say about the state of 274 00:14:08,940 --> 00:14:12,420 S2: modern politics in America. But yeah, I mean, they're really 275 00:14:12,420 --> 00:14:17,620 S2: interesting films potentially, though, they will alienate some Academy voters. 276 00:14:17,620 --> 00:14:20,180 S2: And I think that in the in the race to 277 00:14:20,420 --> 00:14:24,300 S2: what wins Best Picture, there's always a chance of, of 278 00:14:24,620 --> 00:14:27,580 S2: what some people might think of as an outsider sneaking through. 279 00:14:27,620 --> 00:14:30,180 S2: I mean, the classic example was when Green Book won, 280 00:14:30,220 --> 00:14:32,780 S2: you know, uh, and I think that was up against 281 00:14:32,780 --> 00:14:35,300 S2: Black Panther and Black Klansman, if I remember correctly. It 282 00:14:35,300 --> 00:14:38,380 S2: was like, and they were great films, really political films. 283 00:14:38,380 --> 00:14:40,340 S2: But of course, you know. 284 00:14:40,980 --> 00:14:42,420 S1: That was back in 2018. 285 00:14:42,460 --> 00:14:45,670 S2: So, you know, the Academy membership is, although it's more 286 00:14:45,710 --> 00:14:49,110 S2: diverse than it was, there is still, you know, a 287 00:14:49,150 --> 00:14:53,750 S2: big cohort of old white men and, you know, they 288 00:14:53,830 --> 00:14:55,950 S2: aren't necessarily going to buy into some of this stuff. 289 00:14:55,950 --> 00:14:59,630 S2: So a film like Hamnet, which I happen to think 290 00:14:59,630 --> 00:15:03,270 S2: is an absolutely amazing piece of work that has something 291 00:15:03,430 --> 00:15:08,590 S2: incredibly powerful to say and quite universal to say about grief, 292 00:15:08,630 --> 00:15:11,830 S2: about motherhood, certainly about parenting. It has a lot to 293 00:15:11,830 --> 00:15:14,550 S2: say about sexual dynamics. It is, in its own way, 294 00:15:15,150 --> 00:15:18,109 S2: quite a political film. I think, like gender, political film. 295 00:15:18,150 --> 00:15:21,390 S2: It's got something fantastic to say about the transformative power 296 00:15:21,390 --> 00:15:25,870 S2: of creativity in in dealing with grief. You know, it 297 00:15:25,870 --> 00:15:31,550 S2: turns a moment of grief into a moment of transcendent art, both, 298 00:15:31,590 --> 00:15:35,110 S2: you know, within the writing of hamlet, the play, and 299 00:15:35,150 --> 00:15:39,030 S2: in the creation of Hamnet, the film. It's it is 300 00:15:39,030 --> 00:15:42,510 S2: about grief and it's about transcendence through through creativity. 301 00:15:42,550 --> 00:15:45,280 S10: He's got more inside of him than any man I've 302 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:46,000 S10: ever met. 303 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:47,120 S11: Who are you looking for? 304 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:48,480 S12: William Shakespeare. 305 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,040 S2: I could see that film sneaking through because it is 306 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,920 S2: in some respects, although it is, as I say, a 307 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:57,840 S2: kind of political in its own way. It's not an 308 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:00,840 S2: overtly political film in the way that one battle is 309 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:05,840 S2: or sinners is. I suspect people, Academy voters like like 310 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:09,480 S2: general audiences. I suspect they respond most strongly to films 311 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:13,320 S2: that seemed to be pertinent to their lives. Whatever is 312 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,040 S2: going on in their lives at a given moment without 313 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,800 S2: being overtly political. I think the more overtly political a 314 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,760 S2: film is, the the more resistance it's going to meet 315 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,240 S2: from some people. Some people will just go, oh, it's 316 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:25,680 S2: too political. I don't want to. I don't want to 317 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,840 S2: be lectured. If you what is it? Uh, Louis B Mayer, 318 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,000 S2: who was it? Louis B Mayer who said, you know, 319 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:33,600 S2: if you want to say, send a message, use Western Union. 320 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:37,200 S2: You know, it's like the idea that movies should be 321 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:41,640 S2: about entertainment, I think still holds sway amongst a lot 322 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:44,800 S2: of people in in Hollywood. And let's not forget that 323 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:48,240 S2: the Oscars are about Hollywood celebrating itself. So. 324 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:50,560 S1: And now I really wanted to ask you about today's ceremony, 325 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:54,560 S1: because of course, obviously the Oscars are an entertainment moment 326 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,880 S1: in and of themselves. And last year's ceremony was criticized 327 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,640 S1: for being a bit lackluster. But this year, of course, 328 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,320 S1: we've got the specter of American President Donald Trump looming 329 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:08,639 S1: over everything. So are you expecting any breakout moments, any drama? 330 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:10,520 S1: Is there anything do you think that we might see? 331 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,600 S4: You would think so, right? You'd sort of think, surely 332 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,240 S4: something's going to be said, something's going to happen. But 333 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:20,280 S4: if I'm being honest, based on what we've sort of 334 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:24,200 S4: seen so far. I mentioned the award season just before. 335 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:28,280 S4: We've already watched many ceremonies. You know, we've been through 336 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:34,879 S4: Critics Choice, BAFTAs, Golden Globes, actors, formerly the SAG Awards, 337 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:40,000 S4: and we just haven't been hearing much said or at 338 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:44,170 S4: least much sort of overt political statements sit on stage. 339 00:17:44,450 --> 00:17:46,690 S4: It doesn't really kind of look like many people are 340 00:17:46,690 --> 00:17:50,970 S4: really grabbing this opportunity by the horns to make a statement. 341 00:17:51,010 --> 00:17:53,050 S4: That being said, I feel like there could be the 342 00:17:53,050 --> 00:17:56,290 S4: possibility that seeing as the Oscars is, you know, films, 343 00:17:56,490 --> 00:18:00,689 S4: night of nights, massive night for cinema and filmmakers around 344 00:18:00,690 --> 00:18:04,690 S4: the globe, perhaps. Maybe they are just waiting for that 345 00:18:04,690 --> 00:18:06,650 S4: moment to really make a massive statement. 346 00:18:06,690 --> 00:18:09,770 S1: I wonder if there's a creative person, whether it's an 347 00:18:09,770 --> 00:18:12,810 S1: actor or, you know, someone more behind the camera who's 348 00:18:12,810 --> 00:18:15,170 S1: from Europe. I wonder if they'll if they win and 349 00:18:15,170 --> 00:18:16,930 S1: they take the time to make a statement just because 350 00:18:16,930 --> 00:18:21,810 S1: there's been so much anti-europe sentiment coming from Donald Trump's camp, 351 00:18:22,010 --> 00:18:24,530 S1: whether it's, you know, JD Vance sort of schooling all 352 00:18:24,530 --> 00:18:28,010 S1: the European leaders at a Munich conference. I mean, there's 353 00:18:28,010 --> 00:18:31,090 S1: just been so much, um, hammering of the European countries. 354 00:18:31,369 --> 00:18:34,530 S1: Are there any sort of, uh, candidates there for European 355 00:18:34,530 --> 00:18:36,490 S1: figures who may be in a position to. 356 00:18:36,530 --> 00:18:38,850 S2: Here's hoping that somebody from Greenland. That would be great. 357 00:18:39,010 --> 00:18:40,530 S4: That would be good. Yes. I mean, the only sort 358 00:18:40,580 --> 00:18:43,780 S4: of European person that came straight to mind would be, um, Skarsgard, 359 00:18:43,780 --> 00:18:48,660 S4: because obviously Sentimental values is up for awards and Skarsgard 360 00:18:48,820 --> 00:18:52,340 S4: and the best actor or best supporting actor, best supporting actor, 361 00:18:52,380 --> 00:18:55,740 S4: best supporting Actor category and could win. Like there is 362 00:18:55,740 --> 00:18:57,580 S4: a chance that he could win there. 363 00:18:57,619 --> 00:19:01,820 S2: So my theory on this is that this is the 364 00:19:01,820 --> 00:19:04,380 S2: big one, right? And so if you're going to make 365 00:19:04,380 --> 00:19:08,460 S2: a statement that reaches as many people as possible, there's 366 00:19:08,460 --> 00:19:11,060 S2: no point in doing it at the actor awards or 367 00:19:11,060 --> 00:19:13,979 S2: at the Golden Globes. Maybe the Globes, they've got reasonable profile, 368 00:19:13,980 --> 00:19:16,859 S2: but really you're better off keeping your powder dry, right? 369 00:19:16,900 --> 00:19:19,500 S2: Say it once, say it well, say it in the 370 00:19:19,540 --> 00:19:22,220 S2: on the biggest platform that will get the biggest headlines. 371 00:19:22,220 --> 00:19:25,060 S2: It'll get the most media attention right. So if you. 372 00:19:25,100 --> 00:19:28,180 S2: But there is also a few months ago, uh, Jennifer 373 00:19:28,180 --> 00:19:30,500 S2: Lawrence was on, I think on a talk show and 374 00:19:30,500 --> 00:19:33,980 S2: she was basically addressing the whole idea of sort of 375 00:19:34,020 --> 00:19:39,869 S2: celebrity activism and saying that it maybe is counterproductive and 376 00:19:39,869 --> 00:19:42,469 S2: that it can put a lot of people off. And 377 00:19:42,470 --> 00:19:44,590 S2: I think she was addressing the whole the whole notion 378 00:19:44,590 --> 00:19:48,149 S2: that people like her are seen by a lot of 379 00:19:48,150 --> 00:19:51,310 S2: people as being incredibly privileged, and they're removed from the 380 00:19:51,350 --> 00:19:56,750 S2: everyday concerns of, you know, regular people. Uh, so then 381 00:19:56,790 --> 00:20:00,470 S2: leaping in to talk about whatever it might be, healthcare 382 00:20:00,470 --> 00:20:06,629 S2: or immigration or whatever can feel like they're lecturing from 383 00:20:06,630 --> 00:20:10,109 S2: on high to, to people and it can actually be counterproductive. 384 00:20:10,109 --> 00:20:10,469 S2: So that. 385 00:20:10,470 --> 00:20:11,190 S1: Is interesting. 386 00:20:11,590 --> 00:20:14,710 S2: You go, you go to the, the, uh, Kamala Harris, um, 387 00:20:14,790 --> 00:20:17,350 S2: election campaign. And there was a lot of celebrity endorsement. 388 00:20:17,390 --> 00:20:20,909 S2: What effect did that have? It actually arguably put a 389 00:20:20,910 --> 00:20:24,030 S2: lot of voters off. Right. It actually made it look 390 00:20:24,030 --> 00:20:28,790 S2: like this is the, uh, you know, political entertainment elite. 391 00:20:29,109 --> 00:20:31,270 S2: And they're telling us how we should live our lives. 392 00:20:31,390 --> 00:20:34,470 S2: That did not wash with blue collar workers in America. 393 00:20:34,510 --> 00:20:37,350 S1: Okay. Well, we'll be looking with great interest to see, 394 00:20:37,390 --> 00:20:39,550 S1: you know, if they if they do it today. So 395 00:20:39,550 --> 00:20:42,189 S1: thank you so much, Carl and Nell, for your time. 396 00:20:42,230 --> 00:20:43,350 S4: Pleasure. Thank you. 397 00:20:54,270 --> 00:20:58,270 S1: Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Julia Carcasole. 398 00:20:58,550 --> 00:21:02,110 S1: Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is our 399 00:21:02,109 --> 00:21:05,030 S1: head of audio. To listen to our episodes as soon 400 00:21:05,030 --> 00:21:08,790 S1: as they drop, follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify, 401 00:21:08,790 --> 00:21:12,430 S1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered 402 00:21:12,430 --> 00:21:16,510 S1: by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism, visit The Age 403 00:21:16,510 --> 00:21:21,230 S1: or Smh.com.au to subscribe and to stay up to date, 404 00:21:21,230 --> 00:21:24,149 S1: sign up to our newsletter to receive a summary of 405 00:21:24,150 --> 00:21:27,670 S1: the day's most important news in your inbox. Every morning. 406 00:21:28,190 --> 00:21:31,830 S1: Links are in the show notes. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris, 407 00:21:31,990 --> 00:21:33,109 S1: thanks for listening.