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Speaker 1: The Australian Financial Review. If I hear any of our

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Speaker 1: managers talking about the same individual three times, it's now

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Speaker 1: the manager who's the problem, and I'll pull them out.

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Speaker 1: Hang on, you've talked about this person, this is the

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Speaker 1: third time. What are you doing about it? Because clearly

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Speaker 1: there's a problem and you've now said up three top. Thanks,

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Speaker 1: you are now the problem manager.

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Speaker 2: Hi. I'm Sally Padden, the editor of Boss from the

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Speaker 2: Australian Financial Review, and welcome to fifteen Minutes with the Boss,

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Speaker 2: a podcast about success and failure and everything in between.

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Speaker 2: And along the way we're having to get some really

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Speaker 2: great advice from our leaders. My guest today is Paul Hitchcock,

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Speaker 2: the chief executive of Patty's Food Group. Hi, Paul, how

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Speaker 2: are you? Hi? Sally, thank you so much for coming in. Paul,

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Speaker 2: as I said, you're the chief executive of Patty's Food Group,

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Speaker 2: which makes four and twenty Pies, Nanas and Herbert Adams Pies,

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Speaker 2: as well as Legos and Lean Cuisine, among lots of

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Speaker 2: other brands. You have annual sales of eight hundred and

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Speaker 2: fifty million dollars and apparently you sold six hundred million

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Speaker 2: pies sausage rolls and party pies. In the past twelve months,

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Speaker 2: you have eighteen hundred employees. And my fun fact is

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Speaker 2: that at an AFL Grand Final at the MCG, you

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Speaker 2: can expect to sell thirty thousand pies. So actually, just

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Speaker 2: on that, are you a party pie guy or a

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Speaker 2: sausage role guy?

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Speaker 1: I'm both both. I love them both. But we have

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Speaker 1: party pies at work in our reception area and Marry,

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Speaker 1: our receptionist fills the pie warmer every morning with little

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Speaker 1: party pie. So tween meetings, I often sneak a party

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Speaker 1: pie in the morning or the afternoon and at lunchtime.

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Speaker 2: Ah do So how many would you have a day?

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Speaker 1: Ah? Look, I try not to have more than three.

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Speaker 2: I would find that really really hard. If I were

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Speaker 2: working in office where they were piping hot I assume

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Speaker 2: roles on tap.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it's all for quality control, of course, Sally.

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Speaker 2: Of course, of course it is. I can imagine. Now

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Speaker 2: we don't have much time. Let's start the clock. My

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Speaker 2: first question is about your morning routine. What time do

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Speaker 2: you get at what happens?

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Speaker 1: Well, it varies on the day. So I live in

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Speaker 1: Sydney but work in Melbourne, so I travel every week.

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Speaker 1: We have seven factories, so I'm quite often traveling there.

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Speaker 1: So if i'm if I'm around home or in the

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Speaker 1: hotel in Melbourne at six am, I get up. I'm

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Speaker 1: normally at the office between seven seven thirty. Sometimes I

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Speaker 1: walk in the mornings, sometimes I exercise in the evening.

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Speaker 1: And the weekends I'm always up early for a hike

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Speaker 1: or a long walk or a bike ride, so I

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Speaker 1: like to keep active.

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Speaker 2: Okay, my next question is about a pivotal moment in

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Speaker 2: your career. Was there a project that you worked on

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Speaker 2: or a promotion that you were given that somehow changed

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Speaker 2: the whole trajectory of what you were doing.

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Speaker 1: Early two thousands, I was working for Goodminfielder and I

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Speaker 1: was the sales director of the commercial division. And Goodmanfielder

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Speaker 1: is at that stage it was a publicly listed food company.

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Speaker 1: Sales were over two billion back then and we're on

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Speaker 1: the stock market. We were taken over by a New

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Speaker 1: Zealand billionaire, Graham Hart. At the time. It was a

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Speaker 1: two billion dollar takeover and I had a couple of

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Speaker 1: coffees with him as part of his DD and when

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Speaker 1: he took over the business and one Friday afternoon he

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Speaker 1: called me and said, Paul, we're restructuring the company. I'd

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Speaker 1: like you to run the commercial division and take on

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Speaker 1: all the factories. Are you up for that? And I

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Speaker 1: said yes, let me tell you the rest. So your

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Speaker 1: boss has just left the building, his direct reports, your peers.

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Speaker 1: If you want any of them, there's seven of them.

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Speaker 1: If you want any of them, please tell me Monday.

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Speaker 1: Think about your structure over the weekend, take me throughout

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Speaker 1: Monday morning, and we'll announce the organization Tuesday.

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Speaker 2: Right, And you had no idea that your boss had

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Speaker 2: left the building or was about to leave the building.

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Speaker 1: I was in a meeting with them not thirty minutes before,

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Speaker 1: and he gave me a wave. I was in another man.

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Speaker 1: He gave us a wave as he walked out the door,

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Speaker 1: and I wondered why he was waving. He just had

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Speaker 1: the call. So then on the Monday, I took ran

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Speaker 1: through my structure of my division. And bear in mind

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Speaker 1: I had never run factories before, but I knew someone

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Speaker 1: that had so, and I was picking my team. He

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Speaker 1: agreed with my structure, my people, not that he knew them,

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Speaker 1: had faith in me and the team, and we restructured

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Speaker 1: this two and a half billion dollar business over the weekend,

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Speaker 1: myself and two of the other divisional who became divisional

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Speaker 1: mds as well.

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Speaker 2: And what did you learn from that process about structuring

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Speaker 2: teams and how to take on a much bigger role

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Speaker 2: at the drop of a hat.

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Speaker 1: Well, first thing I learned was when you were having

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Speaker 1: a casual coffee with someone, don't assume it's a casual coffee.

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Speaker 1: Clearly it was a job interview. I just was honest

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Speaker 1: about what I thought. He asked me, did we have

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Speaker 1: too many meetings? Was our new development process fast enough?

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Speaker 1: There are whole lot of things, and I just answered

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Speaker 1: them honestly. I didn't try and overthink it and say

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Speaker 1: are these politically correct? Is this what he wanted to hear?

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Speaker 1: I just said what I thought. You know. Fortunately, that

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Speaker 1: helped me get the job. So that's the first thing

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Speaker 1: and the other thing I learned. If you're going to

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Speaker 1: make change, make it quickly. We restructured, We didn't mess around.

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Speaker 1: We changed people very very quickly, and we got the

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Speaker 1: business focused on our customers and growing the business without

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Speaker 1: an axe hanging over people's head. Was quite often when

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Speaker 1: business is announced, a corporate restructure, a strategy review, and

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Speaker 1: we'll all will be a real revealed in three months.

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Speaker 1: That is the worst thing you can do to people.

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Speaker 1: It's unkind to the individuals, and it also they take

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Speaker 1: their focus off the business and they start focusing on

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Speaker 1: themselves because everybody's got bills to pay, mortgages, family. So

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Speaker 1: it's totally understandable if you've got to make change, do

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Speaker 1: it quick.

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Speaker 2: And how did that whole process really change your career?

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Speaker 1: Well, he gave me the opportunity to run a business.

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Speaker 1: Up until that, I was working for or I'd work

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Speaker 1: for a number of corporates and I perhaps didn't fit

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Speaker 1: the mold. I was probably a little rough around the edges.

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Speaker 1: I was a bit disappointed in the business businesses I

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Speaker 1: worked for that I hadn't been given the chance to

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Speaker 1: be a general manager. And I think he saw something

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Speaker 1: gave me the opportunity. I grasped it with both hands.

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Speaker 1: From that, I became a public company CEO after that,

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Speaker 1: and I've been in general management probably for the last

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Speaker 1: twenty five years. So he gave me a chance when

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Speaker 1: a lot of the corporates wouldn't, and I probably wasn't ready.

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Speaker 1: I was surprised as hell that he called me, but

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Speaker 1: I just took the opportunity with both hands and never

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Speaker 1: looked back.

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Speaker 2: Fantastic. Okay, well, my next question is, what's the best

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Speaker 2: piece of career advice you've ever been given?

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Speaker 1: Make the tough people calls. People don't make the tough

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Speaker 1: people calls. There may be people who are underperforming, people

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Speaker 1: that are just in the wrong job. The business may

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Speaker 1: have outgrown them, and loyalty sometimes and procrastination and avoiding

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Speaker 1: conflict is what puts a lot of people off. And

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Speaker 1: I've been of that too. When I took on my

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Speaker 1: first public company, roles company called Corporate Express, I didn't

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Speaker 1: know anything about the industry. It was all new to me.

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Speaker 1: I had my own board, I was appointed by a

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Speaker 1: great chairman, and I came into the business and I

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Speaker 1: looked at my team and I figured that they must

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Speaker 1: be good because they'd been in the business a long time,

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Speaker 1: and two of them in particular, who were internal candidates

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Speaker 1: for the job, and I was an external who I thought, well,

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Speaker 1: these guys will really support me. And I took a

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Speaker 1: year and I let them go, and it was probably

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Speaker 1: the best thing for everybody. We just mutually agreed, and

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Speaker 1: I took too long.

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Speaker 2: So I think a lot of people would say that

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Speaker 2: the reason that they don't want to make those tough

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Speaker 2: people decisions is because it's hard to have that conversation.

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Speaker 2: There is loyalty and there are all other emotions wrapped

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Speaker 2: up in that. How do you go about having the conversation.

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Speaker 1: I think you've got to back yourself and nothing's black

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Speaker 1: and white. When I joined Patties within the first two days,

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Speaker 1: by the end of the second day, I knew who

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Speaker 1: was in, who was out, and who was in the

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Speaker 1: wrong job, and direct reports of that. Five of them

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Speaker 1: I let go within the first three months, and the

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Speaker 1: other two I put into other jobs. And I have

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Speaker 1: a rule in our business. If I hear any of

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Speaker 1: our managers talking about the same individual three times, it's

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Speaker 1: now the manager who's the problem, and I'll call them out.

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Speaker 1: Hang on, you've talked about this person. This is the

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Speaker 1: third time. What are you doing about it? You are

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Speaker 1: now the problem? Manager?

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Speaker 2: Why three?

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Speaker 1: Well? The first time, someone might say to me, and

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Speaker 1: we do it when we're doing talent reviews, it's oh, well, look,

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Speaker 1: I'm just not sure you know. But look it's been

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Speaker 1: tough and there've been some issues in their team. So

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Speaker 1: I'll give them a benefit of the doubt. The second

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Speaker 1: time might be a little time later, talk about Okay,

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Speaker 1: I look, well I'm working on them. They still haven't

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Speaker 1: quite got there, but gee, they've improved a little bit.

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Speaker 1: The third time, I'm going, okay, hello, come on, this

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Speaker 1: is enough time. Either you're the problem or they're the problem. Right.

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Speaker 1: If they're the problem, do something about it. Or if

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Speaker 1: you're not going to do something about it, and you're

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Speaker 1: the problem and stop winging.

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Speaker 2: I love that rule. That's really good.

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Speaker 1: You know. In our business, we give feedback. We take feedback,

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Speaker 1: people give me feedback. We try and encourage everybody to listen.

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Speaker 1: So I tend to not tell my team to hire

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Speaker 1: or fire someone. And nine to nine percent of the time,

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Speaker 1: whoever my direct reports preferred candidates to join our business,

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Speaker 1: I will sign off on.

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Speaker 2: So terminating people is a hard conversation. Do you have

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Speaker 2: tips for that? Is there a certain way that you

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Speaker 2: structure that conversation when someone is underperforming and they have.

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Speaker 1: To go normally, if you're doing it fairly, you've had

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Speaker 1: conversations and then you give them the opportunity so when

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Speaker 1: you meet them the second time, it's not a complete surprise.

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Speaker 1: You're not just saying, oh, hang on, here's the door,

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Speaker 1: see you later, and they go, what's this all about?

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Speaker 1: But being honest with yourself, can they make it? And

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Speaker 1: if I think the person can get there, I will

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Speaker 1: really work my butt off to try and make them successful.

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Speaker 1: But I make the call early, and if I don't

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Speaker 1: think they can do it, that's it. Better to make

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Speaker 1: the call early and move on.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Paul. On that note, we're going to take a

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Speaker 2: short break, but don't go away. We're going to come

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Speaker 2: back and open the Chatterbox.

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Speaker 1: Thanks looking forward to it.

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Speaker 2: Sally, Welcome back to fifteen Men's with the Boss. I'm

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Speaker 2: here with Paul Hitchcock, the chief executive of Patty's Food Group. Now, Paul,

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Speaker 2: this is our section called the Chatterbox. In front of

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Speaker 2: you is this lovely shiny brown box inside which are

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Speaker 2: about fifteen questions. I'm going to ask you to pick

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Speaker 2: out some and we'll get going with some more Q

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Speaker 2: and a. Okay, in your experience, what is the best

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Speaker 2: way to get a promotion, Like, if you're trying to

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Speaker 2: move up the company ladder, what's the best way to

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Speaker 2: do that? To get noticed?

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Speaker 1: Just work hard, don't put on a show. Just do

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Speaker 1: the best you can. Don't try and brown nose think

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Speaker 1: you're talking to the right people. Just put your head down,

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Speaker 1: work hard. You will get noticed. And I look for

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Speaker 1: people that have got authentic right attitude, work hard, the

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Speaker 1: work ethics are big. It's something I look for.

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Speaker 2: Actually, and just on that. Do you also look for

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Speaker 2: people who will challenge you or change challenge your ideas?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely? I mean the last thing I want is a

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Speaker 1: whole bunch of yes people in my company. I want

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Speaker 1: people with diversity of thought, diversity of culture. I want

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Speaker 1: people to be challenging us as a business and ask

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Speaker 1: those questions and not be afraid to stand alone when

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Speaker 1: there's groups thing going on and have a view to

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Speaker 1: the contrary. I really like that. I encourage it.

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Speaker 2: I love that. Have another fish in the box, dank you.

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Speaker 1: I'd like to get a peak before you get that.

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Speaker 2: I'm afraid that's illegal in this game. That's illegal. When

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Speaker 2: was the last time you gave up doing something or

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Speaker 2: had to quit doing something because it wasn't working.

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Speaker 1: I think with our manufacturing, what I've learned with our business,

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Speaker 1: we're really good at making things. And there's a couple

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Speaker 1: of times where we've gone offshore to import products. Customers

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Speaker 1: were telling us they wanted these premium suites, these cakes.

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Speaker 1: So we found somewhere in Italy that would make these cakes.

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Speaker 1: And I went and tasted all these cakes with my

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Speaker 1: marketing and head of sales, and they fed us and

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Speaker 1: we love these work in Australia. So we came up

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Speaker 1: with a brand, brand, new brand. We brought container loads

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Speaker 1: of these things across Dead Flop. We lost a lot

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Speaker 1: of money. And you know, I just learned, first of all,

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Speaker 1: when it comes to stakeholders, whether it's your customers or others,

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Speaker 1: where it's not their money, they't say anything because it's

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Speaker 1: not their money.

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Speaker 2: So they're just answering a survey or through in a

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Speaker 2: focus group. They'll say what they like, but they may

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Speaker 2: not actually put their money where they're out face.

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Speaker 1: That's right, if there's nothing at risk for them, they'll

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Speaker 1: give us our opinion. New brands is really really hard

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Speaker 1: bringing products in from the other side of the word,

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Speaker 1: and container loads in a category that we weren't that

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Speaker 1: familiar with was a problem. And so you know, in

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Speaker 1: the end of the day, we just came back to know,

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Speaker 1: let's make the products ourselves. Shorter supply chains and focus

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Speaker 1: on our brands and really try and grow those brands,

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Speaker 1: because starting a new brand is really, really tough, and

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Speaker 1: were better to put our energy and focusing on the

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Speaker 1: core than it is to go and do the shiny

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Speaker 1: new thing. And whilst these cakes tasted great, we burned

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Speaker 1: a lot of cash.

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Speaker 2: And how long did it take you before you realize

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Speaker 2: that this was not going to work and you quit

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Speaker 2: the project?

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Speaker 1: About nine months? I think we knew after a month

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Speaker 1: and we put the patient on life support. We tried everything,

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Speaker 1: we promoted, we did everything, and in the end it

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Speaker 1: was like, no, we just have to make the call, cut, delete,

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Speaker 1: let's move on.

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Speaker 2: So if that ever happened again, you would make the

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Speaker 2: call pretty quickly.

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Speaker 1: I think the next time, and we've done a few

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Speaker 1: things like this is just just try and manage the

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Speaker 1: resk and think about, well, what if this doesn't work.

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Speaker 1: We were so convinced of eating these products, all right,

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Speaker 1: so three men eating cakes? Oh gee, what could go

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Speaker 1: wrong there? We thought that Australians would would eat these products,

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Speaker 1: and they were good tasting products, but for the price,

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Speaker 1: and we didn't get the best positioning in store. Perhaps

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Speaker 1: our execution what it wasn't as good as it should be.

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Speaker 1: But we should have thought, well, what if this goes right?

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Speaker 1: What if the consumers have we got the RST price point?

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Speaker 1: Should we just do a small trial. Should we just

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Speaker 1: pick a small retail bring some of the products into

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Speaker 1: a market trial. Yes, that's what we should have done. No,

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Speaker 1: we wanted to do a big bang national launch.

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Speaker 2: So do you also think that if you had more

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Speaker 2: diversity in that team, you might have worked at that sooner.

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Speaker 1: We were three like minded people, and we'll quite often

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Speaker 1: do that, and our teams will say, we'll want one

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Speaker 1: person to have a contrary view because group think takes over.

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Speaker 1: And probably what we needed was someone to say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but what if it doesn't work, what if the price

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Speaker 1: is too high, what if the customers don't give it

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Speaker 1: the best location, what if oussies don't like it? What if?

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Speaker 1: What if? And so now in our meetings, that's why

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Speaker 1: we'll always have someone who will take a country view.

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Speaker 1: What could go wrong here? And it challenges us? And

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Speaker 1: if we can answer all the questions or at least

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Speaker 1: have a plan to manage it, then we'll do it.

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Speaker 1: Everything's going to work, you know when you're trying new things.

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Speaker 1: You've got to accept this. Some failures and that's okay.

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Speaker 1: We want failures because you'll find the good ones. But

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Speaker 1: be considered planned and think about what could go wrong

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Speaker 1: and have plans for that.

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Speaker 2: Very good advice. I love that lesson. Okay, have a

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Speaker 2: fish in the box. Thank you. What's the piece of

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Speaker 2: advice that you would give your younger self?

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Speaker 1: Have more confidence?

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Speaker 2: So at one point did you lack a lot of confidence? Yes,

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Speaker 2: until about what age? Probably about forty, Okay, that's quite

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Speaker 2: a while.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I probably didn't think I was good enough.

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Speaker 2: So that's interesting. So what at around the age of

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Speaker 2: forty made that switch for you where you went from

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Speaker 2: being not confident to being confident that you could do

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Speaker 2: good job.

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Speaker 1: I think it was getting the opportunity to at Goodman

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Speaker 1: Fielder with Graham Heart. I'm going hang on, he's clearly

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Speaker 1: seen something here, you know, somebody giving me a break.

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Speaker 1: And when I came and I've sort of continued to grow,

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Speaker 1: and when I came into Patties, I absolutely had no

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Speaker 1: doubt what I was going to do with that company.

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Speaker 1: I had no doubt what I was going to do

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Speaker 1: with the team. I had no doubt that we could

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Speaker 1: be a billion dollar company. But if you'd ask me

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Speaker 1: in my early days, it's like, oh gee, I'm not sure.

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Speaker 1: Leads to procrastination. You start doubting yourself on decisions. You

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Speaker 1: know where I grew up. I grew up in New Zealand,

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Speaker 1: in a very poor part of town. My father was

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Speaker 1: a motor mechanic, you know, and he's a big drinker.

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Speaker 1: Probably most of the time as I knew my father,

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Speaker 1: he'd been drinking. My mother was worked in a shoe factory.

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Speaker 1: I sort of grew up in that environment. You sort

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Speaker 1: of don't know what's possible. And as you as you mature,

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Speaker 1: as you move in other circles, you see, oh wow,

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Speaker 1: I can do this, and so I think it's just

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Speaker 1: sort of evolves over time. I don't think there was

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Speaker 1: one particular moment.

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Speaker 2: As you say you had your time over again, you

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Speaker 2: would have tried to feel more confident from an earlier age.

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Speaker 1: Yes, back myself.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Paul. On that note, you have passed with

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Speaker 2: fine colors. The chatterbox section, and I've now got one

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Speaker 2: final question, which is, if you weren't the chief executive

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Speaker 2: of Patty's Food Group, what would you be doing I

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Speaker 2: would be on boards. Would you do listed boards or

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Speaker 2: unlisted both.

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Speaker 1: If I do unlisted boards, it'll be a businesses that

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Speaker 1: I can put some money into because I do want

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Speaker 1: to make a difference. I would be spending some time

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Speaker 1: coaching CEOs. I've learned a bit over the years and

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Speaker 1: I think that I could help others. I'd probably do

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Speaker 1: a bit of coaching of sports teams sports ago I

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Speaker 1: did coaching of touch rugby at Roseville College. I love

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Speaker 1: that I love to learn guitar.

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Speaker 2: Okay, have you ever played the guitar?

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Speaker 1: Never? But I'm on TikTok quite like the pieces on

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Speaker 1: the around the guitar. So I'll probably wait until i've

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Speaker 1: the executive full time gigs finished, but I'd love to

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Speaker 1: learn the guitar.

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Speaker 2: And that is our time up. Paul, Thank you so

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Speaker 2: much for coming in and chatting to me today. I

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Speaker 2: really love your advice about making the tough people calls

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Speaker 2: early on and the rule of three when you're managing people,

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Speaker 2: if you've mentioned somebody three times in a negative light,

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Speaker 2: it's probably time to fix that problem, whoever the problem

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Speaker 2: might be. I like the way that in the meetings

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Speaker 2: you always make sure that you've now got a contrary view,

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Speaker 2: so there's always someone playing the devil's advocate. And I

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Speaker 2: wish you all the luck with your future TikTok and

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Speaker 2: guitar playing career. And on that note, thank you so

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Speaker 2: much following us to spend fifteen minutes with the Boss.

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Speaker 2: It's been an absolute delight.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Sally, Thank you very much, and.

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Speaker 2: Thank you to everyone for listening. If you like the

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Speaker 2: podcast and you want to hear more, consider sharing the

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Speaker 2: reach more people and follow us wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 2: business and power. For more, go to AFI dot com

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Speaker 2: This podcast was hosted by me Ally Patton, produced and

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Speaker 2: edited by Mandy Coolan. Head of audio is Alex ga

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Speaker 2: and our executive producer is Fiona Bffini.

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Speaker 1: The Australian Financial Review