1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:03,400 S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:08,680 S1: This is inside politics. I'm Jacqueline Maley. This week it 3 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:11,920 S1: feels wrong, actually, to talk about politics in the wake 4 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:16,000 S1: of the horrific anti-Semitic massacre at Bondi Beach on Sunday. 5 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,840 S1: Australians and Sydneysiders in particular are still trying to make 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:23,240 S1: sense of the senseless. But the fact is that the 7 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,680 S1: response to the massacre has been deeply political and things 8 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,720 S1: got divisive very quickly. So this week on Inside Politics, 9 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:33,320 S1: we are going to discuss the political response to the 10 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,599 S1: incident and how it might affect our national life in 11 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:40,200 S1: the months and the years to come. My podcast partner, 12 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:42,440 S1: Paul Satchell is on leave this week, but happily, I 13 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:46,600 S1: am joined instead by political correspondent Natassia Chrysanthos. Hello Tas, 14 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:47,240 S1: how are you? 15 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,040 S2: Hey, Jack. I'm all right. How are you? 16 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:53,640 S1: Yeah, I'm fine, thank you. Tas, you. As we record, 17 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:56,560 S1: you've just come out of the Prime Minister's press conference 18 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,280 S1: on Thursday afternoon. He, of course, has been under sustained 19 00:01:00,410 --> 00:01:03,850 S1: pressure and criticism all week, some of it extremely pointed 20 00:01:03,850 --> 00:01:06,850 S1: and personal for not doing enough to prevent this tragedy 21 00:01:06,850 --> 00:01:10,450 S1: or to tackle anti-Semitism in general. What did he say 22 00:01:10,450 --> 00:01:12,850 S1: in this press conference which was given in Parliament House 23 00:01:12,850 --> 00:01:15,850 S1: in the prime ministerial courtyard? So the full force of 24 00:01:16,130 --> 00:01:17,809 S1: the authority of the office, if you like. 25 00:01:18,610 --> 00:01:23,370 S2: Mhm. So he came out with the special envoy for anti-Semitism, 26 00:01:23,370 --> 00:01:27,610 S2: Julian Segal, Home Affairs Minister Tony Burke, Education Minister Jason 27 00:01:27,610 --> 00:01:33,850 S2: Clare and AFP Commissioner Krissy Barrett. And they stepped out 28 00:01:34,330 --> 00:01:39,530 S2: and announced a that that they'd be implementing Gillian Segal's 29 00:01:39,530 --> 00:01:42,610 S2: full report into anti-Semitism, which was handed to the government 30 00:01:42,610 --> 00:01:44,170 S2: in July this year. 31 00:01:44,930 --> 00:01:47,890 S3: The Australian government adopts and fully supports the plan to 32 00:01:47,930 --> 00:01:53,050 S3: combat anti-Semitism. We have already legislated for hate speech, hate crime. 33 00:01:53,090 --> 00:01:56,809 S2: As well as a suite of other law reform efforts 34 00:01:56,810 --> 00:02:02,450 S2: to crack down on hate speech, and specifically hate preachers, 35 00:02:02,730 --> 00:02:06,690 S2: as well as a new taskforce to look at the 36 00:02:06,690 --> 00:02:10,530 S2: education system wholesale and how it's dealing with anti-Semitism and 37 00:02:10,530 --> 00:02:12,330 S2: make recommendations to improve it. 38 00:02:12,889 --> 00:02:18,290 S4: Children aren't born antisemitic. Children aren't born racist. Children aren't 39 00:02:18,290 --> 00:02:22,290 S4: born with hate in their hearts. This is something that's taught. 40 00:02:22,290 --> 00:02:25,650 S4: This is something that's learnt. There's lots of things that 41 00:02:25,650 --> 00:02:29,369 S4: we need to do to tackle and weed out anti-Semitism. 42 00:02:29,370 --> 00:02:32,450 S4: But what we do in education is an important part 43 00:02:32,450 --> 00:02:36,730 S4: of that in preventing it, in tackling it, in responding 44 00:02:36,770 --> 00:02:38,570 S4: to it. And that includes. 45 00:02:38,570 --> 00:02:41,730 S2: The noteworthy things about today is one, it does look 46 00:02:41,730 --> 00:02:45,930 S2: like a kind of strong offering in terms of action 47 00:02:46,130 --> 00:02:48,370 S2: that the government will move towards in the short to 48 00:02:48,410 --> 00:02:54,010 S2: medium term and be a bit of a tone shift. Now, 49 00:02:54,010 --> 00:02:57,650 S2: this came more in the questions section of the press conference. 50 00:02:57,650 --> 00:03:00,580 S2: So it was in the second kind of improvised component, 51 00:03:00,580 --> 00:03:05,260 S2: where the Prime Minister faced a bunch of questions around 52 00:03:05,260 --> 00:03:08,700 S2: whether the action he was taking was too late, and 53 00:03:08,700 --> 00:03:15,140 S2: then also questions around the degree of personal responsibility that 54 00:03:15,139 --> 00:03:20,500 S2: he took or assumed for what happened on Sunday. And 55 00:03:20,500 --> 00:03:25,820 S2: for the first time, we heard him kind of, I guess, 56 00:03:25,860 --> 00:03:29,859 S2: accept a degree of responsibility for his own role as 57 00:03:29,860 --> 00:03:30,820 S2: prime minister. 58 00:03:31,340 --> 00:03:36,460 S3: So I, of course, acknowledged that more could have been done, 59 00:03:36,460 --> 00:03:39,820 S3: and I accept my responsibility for the part in that 60 00:03:39,820 --> 00:03:42,860 S3: as Prime Minister of Australia. But what I also do 61 00:03:43,100 --> 00:03:47,420 S3: is accept my responsibility to lead the nation and unite 62 00:03:47,420 --> 00:03:48,220 S3: the nation. 63 00:03:48,860 --> 00:03:53,140 S2: It wasn't a full throated apology or admission of responsibility 64 00:03:53,140 --> 00:03:56,500 S2: by any means, but I think he did move toward 65 00:03:56,540 --> 00:04:00,230 S2: a bit more of a kind of conciliatory, humble tone 66 00:04:00,510 --> 00:04:04,150 S2: around this, where I think earlier in the week and 67 00:04:04,150 --> 00:04:08,950 S2: in the immediate aftermath, he spoke a lot more defensively 68 00:04:08,950 --> 00:04:11,750 S2: about the action his government had taken and what it 69 00:04:11,750 --> 00:04:13,950 S2: had done. And it is true the government has done 70 00:04:13,950 --> 00:04:16,750 S2: a bunch of things on anti-Semitism in the last couple 71 00:04:16,790 --> 00:04:20,589 S2: of years, but crucially, the community has consistently been asking 72 00:04:20,589 --> 00:04:23,469 S2: for more. So it's that balance has not been totally 73 00:04:23,470 --> 00:04:25,909 S2: blind to it, but nor has he. He followed the 74 00:04:25,910 --> 00:04:28,750 S2: path that it was, for example, set out for him 75 00:04:28,750 --> 00:04:32,590 S2: by the antisemitism envoy, Jillian Segal. She had a bunch 76 00:04:32,589 --> 00:04:35,670 S2: of recommendations. The government's kind of moved along with some 77 00:04:35,670 --> 00:04:40,430 S2: of them without issuing a formal response to that report. Now, 78 00:04:40,430 --> 00:04:42,830 S2: there were elements in that report that were quite controversial 79 00:04:42,830 --> 00:04:45,870 S2: and did raise alarm bells among people in academia, among 80 00:04:45,870 --> 00:04:49,870 S2: people in the arts and cultural sector about how it 81 00:04:49,870 --> 00:04:53,750 S2: rubbed up against free speech and the degree of intervention 82 00:04:53,750 --> 00:04:55,870 S2: that was recommended there. You know, there are there are 83 00:04:55,870 --> 00:04:59,359 S2: recommendations around stripping funding from arts institutions, for For example. 84 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:03,000 S1: Yeah, arts institutions and universities or indeed anyone who takes 85 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,680 S1: public funding that fails to stamp out anti-Semitism. And that 86 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:09,880 S1: could be very broadly interpreted, I guess. So, yeah, some 87 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:12,880 S1: of those recommendations in that report were controversial. And one 88 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:15,680 S1: gets the feeling now that the controversial ones were the 89 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:17,440 S1: ones that the government were sort of happy to sit 90 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,240 S1: on and to sort of let idle. And obviously now 91 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:22,440 S1: it's come to the fore because of this horrific attack, 92 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:24,880 S1: and they have to do something about it. So it's 93 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,599 S1: forced their arm in a way. But they do. You know, 94 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,320 S1: I think Albanese probably has looked like his arm has 95 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:33,599 S1: been forced a little bit, as you say, the apology 96 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:35,960 S1: or the expression of regret that he gave was very 97 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,280 S1: much in the passive voice. You know, there could have 98 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,160 S1: always been something more to be done. It wasn't they 99 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,080 S1: weren't I statements. I wonder if that will be enough 100 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:46,880 S1: to sort of hold off the criticism. And it's been 101 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:52,440 S1: vociferous criticism, particularly from elements of, you know, I guess 102 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,839 S1: former treasurer Josh Frydenberg and the News Corp media has 103 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,560 S1: been really, really hard on him. Do you think it will? 104 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:04,200 S2: Oh, and the federal opposition has also been, especially on Wednesday, 105 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:10,039 S2: really escalated its kind of political attack on the government. 106 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,440 S2: And I think that has been noted in the community. 107 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:17,360 S2: You know how in after previous tragedies or disasters, you know, 108 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:21,600 S2: you I think Australians generally expect a degree of bipartisanship 109 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,479 S2: in the approach. And John Howard was really the first 110 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:29,680 S2: person out the door on Tuesday with a very scathing 111 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:32,360 S2: commentary on the Prime minister. 112 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:40,560 S5: And there's little doubt that since October the 7th, 2023, 113 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:47,560 S5: not enough has been done by those who command authority 114 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:52,960 S5: and respect in our society to prevent, cauterize and denounce 115 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:57,800 S5: the spread of anti-Semitism. And I hope that. 116 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:01,890 S2: And then a day later, you had formal Liberal Treasurer 117 00:07:01,890 --> 00:07:06,410 S2: Josh Frydenberg, who is Jewish. Go to the Bondi Pavilion 118 00:07:06,410 --> 00:07:11,250 S2: and also deliver his his remarks, which took it up 119 00:07:11,250 --> 00:07:13,970 S2: a notch again and said that the Prime Minister needed 120 00:07:13,970 --> 00:07:18,570 S2: to accept personal responsibility for the deaths of 15 people. 121 00:07:18,970 --> 00:07:23,970 S6: Our Prime Minister, our government has allowed Australia to be 122 00:07:23,970 --> 00:07:29,570 S6: radicalised on his watch. It's time for him to accept 123 00:07:29,570 --> 00:07:35,050 S6: personal responsibility for the death of 15 innocent people, including 124 00:07:35,050 --> 00:07:36,610 S6: a ten year old child. 125 00:07:37,810 --> 00:07:40,970 S1: Just on that particular comment. I mean, that is an 126 00:07:40,970 --> 00:07:44,690 S1: extraordinary thing to say, isn't it? It's it's horribly offensive. 127 00:07:44,690 --> 00:07:47,290 S1: I would have thought to the Prime Minister. Um, it's 128 00:07:47,290 --> 00:07:51,210 S1: quite an extraordinary ratcheting up of rhetoric that we see 129 00:07:51,250 --> 00:07:54,650 S1: three days after a terrible, terrible attack when emotions are very, 130 00:07:54,650 --> 00:07:57,809 S1: very high. It's understandable that you would be feeling very, 131 00:07:57,810 --> 00:08:01,740 S1: very upset. But to me that was quite an extraordinary statement. 132 00:08:01,740 --> 00:08:04,060 S1: I just I don't think I've ever heard anything like 133 00:08:04,060 --> 00:08:05,980 S1: that in our politics previously. 134 00:08:06,740 --> 00:08:09,980 S2: Mhm. Mhm. And he was, he was you know pointing 135 00:08:10,020 --> 00:08:14,420 S2: to the site of the massacres as well. Um it 136 00:08:14,420 --> 00:08:18,820 S2: did not beat around the bush. I think it's you 137 00:08:18,820 --> 00:08:22,260 S2: know on the one hand there is an impression that 138 00:08:22,300 --> 00:08:25,940 S2: perhaps people have expected more of Albanese. You know, there 139 00:08:25,940 --> 00:08:30,420 S2: hasn't been the image of him consoling the community or 140 00:08:30,420 --> 00:08:34,179 S2: families or, you know, with people. He's kind of painted 141 00:08:34,179 --> 00:08:37,980 S2: a bit of a solitary figure that, you know, he 142 00:08:37,980 --> 00:08:40,460 S2: went he went early on Monday, the morning after to 143 00:08:40,460 --> 00:08:42,699 S2: lay flowers at Bondi. But at that point he was 144 00:08:42,740 --> 00:08:46,540 S2: kind of on his own. He gave a speech at 145 00:08:46,540 --> 00:08:51,059 S2: Saint Mary's Cathedral on Wednesday night at a multi-faith, you know, memorial, 146 00:08:51,059 --> 00:08:53,100 S2: and he was held to account there as well. There 147 00:08:53,100 --> 00:08:55,620 S2: were rabbis there saying, you know, we expect the government 148 00:08:55,620 --> 00:08:58,620 S2: to do more. Um, so he was he was taking 149 00:08:58,620 --> 00:09:00,980 S2: in that feedback in a very public place. But again, 150 00:09:00,980 --> 00:09:04,940 S2: it was a it was a very kind of controlled environment. 151 00:09:05,260 --> 00:09:10,580 S2: There is a real visceral fury directed at Anthony Albanese from, 152 00:09:11,100 --> 00:09:15,140 S2: you know, elements of the Jewish community that predates this event. So, 153 00:09:15,179 --> 00:09:19,140 S2: you know, it would be an incredibly hostile reception for him. 154 00:09:19,780 --> 00:09:21,460 S2: There's a question as to whether he should have just 155 00:09:21,460 --> 00:09:23,460 S2: gone and copped that anyway. And I think that's the 156 00:09:23,460 --> 00:09:25,380 S2: optics that people are picking up on. But then on 157 00:09:25,380 --> 00:09:28,300 S2: the other side, even if that is the case, do 158 00:09:28,300 --> 00:09:32,939 S2: Australians expect, you know, the leader of the opposition and 159 00:09:32,940 --> 00:09:40,020 S2: former leaders, former prime ministers, former treasurers to lead a 160 00:09:40,020 --> 00:09:45,540 S2: very political response to this, or do they expect a 161 00:09:45,540 --> 00:09:49,060 S2: version of leadership that lends itself more toward, you know, 162 00:09:49,100 --> 00:09:53,500 S2: harmony and social cohesion, particularly in the immediate aftermath of 163 00:09:53,700 --> 00:09:54,260 S2: such an event? 164 00:09:54,300 --> 00:09:56,100 S1: Not to be too sort of political about it, but 165 00:09:56,100 --> 00:09:58,470 S1: where is Sussan Ley been in all of this because, 166 00:09:58,510 --> 00:10:01,870 S1: as you say, we saw John Howard unexpectedly pop up 167 00:10:01,870 --> 00:10:03,949 S1: and do a walk around and call a press conference. 168 00:10:03,990 --> 00:10:07,230 S1: I mean, John Howard's a private citizen these days. Same 169 00:10:07,230 --> 00:10:10,750 S1: with Josh Frydenberg. He's no longer involved in politics, ostensibly. 170 00:10:10,750 --> 00:10:13,630 S1: And yet he he popped up, gave this sort of fiery, 171 00:10:13,790 --> 00:10:17,949 S1: extremely sort of moving speech at the site down at Bondi. 172 00:10:18,270 --> 00:10:20,589 S1: Is Susan Lee being sort of crowded out a little 173 00:10:20,630 --> 00:10:23,670 S1: bit by these former liberal figures? 174 00:10:24,710 --> 00:10:27,150 S2: I don't she obviously doesn't have the same kind of 175 00:10:27,190 --> 00:10:31,750 S2: gravitas or clout as a, as an opposition and a 176 00:10:31,750 --> 00:10:36,510 S2: relatively new opposition leader at that. Um, but we I 177 00:10:36,510 --> 00:10:39,670 S2: think we've seen her try and match them, particularly after 178 00:10:39,670 --> 00:10:43,470 S2: Howard came out like straight after Sunday, she offered her 179 00:10:43,750 --> 00:10:47,990 S2: bipartisan support to the government. In essence, if it did 180 00:10:47,990 --> 00:10:50,630 S2: want to make kind of immediate changes in the aftermath 181 00:10:50,870 --> 00:10:55,510 S2: on Monday, I thought she kind of thread the needle 182 00:10:55,550 --> 00:11:01,080 S2: quite delicately. Um, she did say, but also in a 183 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,440 S2: more passive way. You know, enough hasn't been done on 184 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,240 S2: anti-Semitism in the last two years. The government has been 185 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:08,800 S2: warned about this and so forth. But she wouldn't. For example, 186 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:12,960 S2: she was asked whether she supported Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin 187 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:18,800 S2: Netanyahu's comments, which accused Albanese of pouring fuel on the 188 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:23,120 S2: fire of anti-Semitism or something. And Lee didn't buy in. 189 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:28,840 S2: She kind of she kept those remarks removed enough from 190 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:33,400 S2: appearing overly political, I would say. But then I think 191 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:37,240 S2: as as more information came to light about the context 192 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,600 S2: of the attack as the kind of white hot fury 193 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:44,640 S2: of people in the Jewish community was being delivered and 194 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,200 S2: expressed to Lee and her frontbench as John Howard went 195 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:52,880 S2: out and made these quite remarkable comments. On Wednesday, you 196 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:55,240 S2: saw Susan Lee kind of step up to the plate 197 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:59,000 S2: and escalate her commentary about the government saying it had 198 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,319 S2: failed Jewish Australians and Albanese had failed Jewish Australians. And 199 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:04,040 S2: if I was prime minister, you know, she stood at 200 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:07,080 S2: Bondi and said, If I'm Prime Minister, I will do this. 201 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:09,760 S1: Yeah, I don't think there's any doubt that people like 202 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,240 S1: John Howard and Josh Frydenberg and perhaps Sussan Ley as well, 203 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:16,000 S1: are definitely channelling and speaking the anger of, you know, 204 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,160 S1: segments of the Jewish community. There's no doubt about that. 205 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:22,040 S1: And the emotion is real and the and the rage 206 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:24,120 S1: is real. And I don't for any minute sort of 207 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:27,760 S1: diminish that rage. But it has been quite notable, I think, 208 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:31,760 S1: how quickly this has escalated into what looks pretty heavily 209 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,120 S1: partisan at a time when, as you say, you would 210 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,439 S1: hope that everybody would come together. I want to talk 211 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,040 S1: about gun control because that was something that was mentioned 212 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:44,320 S1: early on, it seems, seemed to me pretty uncontroversial that 213 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,520 S1: you would maybe ask a few questions about why someone 214 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:49,640 S1: who's living in outer suburban Sydney would be able to 215 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,680 S1: have six huge guns registered to their name, particularly when 216 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:56,569 S1: their son has been, has attracted the attention of intelligence Authorities, 217 00:12:57,170 --> 00:13:00,130 S1: but John Howard quashed that very much on Tuesday when 218 00:13:00,130 --> 00:13:02,770 S1: he sort of said that any talk of gun control 219 00:13:02,770 --> 00:13:05,650 S1: was a distraction from the real issue, which is anti-Semitism. 220 00:13:06,090 --> 00:13:08,330 S1: We then saw that line very much taken up and 221 00:13:08,330 --> 00:13:10,890 S1: run with by the News Corp opinion makers. Like when 222 00:13:10,890 --> 00:13:13,050 S1: I looked at the Australian, you know, pretty much all 223 00:13:13,050 --> 00:13:16,770 S1: week that that exact line has been been run. Albanese 224 00:13:16,850 --> 00:13:19,650 S1: talked about gun control early on, and Chris Minns, the 225 00:13:19,650 --> 00:13:21,730 S1: New South Wales premier, has talked about it too, and 226 00:13:21,730 --> 00:13:23,690 S1: said that it can do with some tightening up. But 227 00:13:23,690 --> 00:13:25,530 S1: then he's kind of dropped it now hasn't he. Like 228 00:13:25,530 --> 00:13:27,650 S1: he didn't mention it at all on Thursday with this 229 00:13:27,650 --> 00:13:28,809 S1: big press conference. 230 00:13:29,690 --> 00:13:33,890 S2: Mhm. And I imagine that is a kind of reflection 231 00:13:33,890 --> 00:13:38,250 S2: of that feedback and the political attack. Like I think 232 00:13:38,290 --> 00:13:40,090 S2: if he had gone up and spoken again all day 233 00:13:40,090 --> 00:13:43,690 S2: about gun reform, when there are obvious questions that remain, 234 00:13:43,690 --> 00:13:48,410 S2: for example, about the anti-Semitism envoy's response and, and how 235 00:13:48,410 --> 00:13:50,970 S2: it approached hate speech legislation and all of that, it 236 00:13:50,970 --> 00:13:53,489 S2: would have looked like he was missing on these difficult topics. 237 00:13:53,490 --> 00:13:56,460 S2: So it was, I think, a gear shift that responded 238 00:13:56,460 --> 00:13:58,260 S2: to the situation that he's found himself in. 239 00:13:58,300 --> 00:14:01,980 S1: What about. I mean, all of this is important, but 240 00:14:01,980 --> 00:14:06,220 S1: it is not sort of the central cause, if you like, 241 00:14:06,220 --> 00:14:08,860 S1: which is, you know, in previous times we would have 242 00:14:08,860 --> 00:14:12,180 S1: probably would have treated this as a pure radicalization and 243 00:14:12,179 --> 00:14:16,260 S1: extremism sort of problem. And that has been part of 244 00:14:16,260 --> 00:14:19,100 S1: the conversation. This is a kind of different order of 245 00:14:19,100 --> 00:14:23,220 S1: attack because it was so large, so bloody, so senseless 246 00:14:23,220 --> 00:14:26,420 S1: and cruel, and it was very much targeting the Jewish community, 247 00:14:26,660 --> 00:14:29,300 S1: but it was also an act of terror and extremism. 248 00:14:29,460 --> 00:14:33,700 S1: We've had those before in Australia. What about the security agencies, 249 00:14:33,740 --> 00:14:37,460 S1: the intelligence sharing, even the local policing, not to mention 250 00:14:37,460 --> 00:14:41,180 S1: the immigration policing? Has that been sort of enough of 251 00:14:41,180 --> 00:14:42,860 S1: a part of the conversation, or what does the Prime 252 00:14:42,860 --> 00:14:44,620 S1: Minister and the government said about that? 253 00:14:45,540 --> 00:14:50,740 S2: I think, well, particularly what they said on Thursday reflected 254 00:14:50,940 --> 00:14:53,340 S2: the process that all these things go through, which is, 255 00:14:54,100 --> 00:14:55,910 S2: you know, there was a lot of information that came 256 00:14:55,910 --> 00:15:00,110 S2: out through leaks from law enforcement sources and forthright information 257 00:15:00,110 --> 00:15:03,150 S2: from the government as well, about what we knew about 258 00:15:03,150 --> 00:15:06,670 S2: these two men, where they'd been, what might have motivated them. 259 00:15:06,910 --> 00:15:10,870 S2: Now that one of the attackers is now facing criminal charges, 260 00:15:10,870 --> 00:15:13,630 S2: there is a kind of legal limit to what will 261 00:15:13,630 --> 00:15:18,870 S2: be said in terms of revealing more about what motivated them, 262 00:15:18,870 --> 00:15:22,830 S2: their movements, and as a result, any kind of, you know, 263 00:15:22,870 --> 00:15:26,390 S2: failures or shortcomings of of agencies or police. 264 00:15:26,430 --> 00:15:28,190 S1: But we did. I think it's worth pointing out that 265 00:15:28,190 --> 00:15:30,550 S1: in the first press conference, and admittedly, it was right 266 00:15:30,550 --> 00:15:33,830 S1: after right after the event, the first press conference with 267 00:15:33,990 --> 00:15:37,030 S1: with Chris Minns, the New South Wales Premier and the 268 00:15:37,030 --> 00:15:41,310 S1: police commissioner in New South Wales, Mal Lanyon, they said that, um, 269 00:15:41,310 --> 00:15:44,430 S1: you know, these people were not known to the New 270 00:15:44,430 --> 00:15:47,590 S1: South Wales Police as any kind of security risk. Well, 271 00:15:47,630 --> 00:15:50,270 S1: we've seen a fair bit of reporting since that shows 272 00:15:50,270 --> 00:15:54,190 S1: that actually they were flagged as a sort of security risk. Or, 273 00:15:54,230 --> 00:15:56,150 S1: you know, some people say that the sun was sort 274 00:15:56,150 --> 00:15:59,230 S1: of looked over and and examined. And then basically he 275 00:15:59,230 --> 00:16:01,470 S1: was decided not to be a risk. I think there 276 00:16:01,470 --> 00:16:03,710 S1: will be questions that are asked about that. And in 277 00:16:03,710 --> 00:16:08,310 S1: one sense, the focus on anti-Semitism, which is right and necessary, 278 00:16:08,670 --> 00:16:14,470 S1: shouldn't take away from whatever security and intelligence mistakes or 279 00:16:14,470 --> 00:16:17,990 S1: missteps or misconnections have been made. 280 00:16:18,670 --> 00:16:22,350 S2: Yeah. And I think, like, I think the focus on anti-Semitism, 281 00:16:22,390 --> 00:16:25,750 S2: like obviously reacts the targeted nature of this attack and 282 00:16:26,030 --> 00:16:28,950 S2: the fact that it it was directed at one section 283 00:16:28,950 --> 00:16:32,030 S2: of the community and that is the the part of 284 00:16:32,030 --> 00:16:36,670 S2: the community that is in, you know, the deepest grief. 285 00:16:38,030 --> 00:16:41,590 S2: I think that that conversation is is taking hold, particularly 286 00:16:41,590 --> 00:16:47,150 S2: at a political level, because of the broader context of 287 00:16:47,190 --> 00:16:50,310 S2: the last two years. And so, in some ways, it's like, 288 00:16:50,670 --> 00:16:52,590 S2: as people have spoken about it, like this attack is 289 00:16:52,590 --> 00:16:53,990 S2: exactly what they had feared. 290 00:16:54,030 --> 00:16:55,200 S1: Yeah, it's the a combination. 291 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:59,120 S2: But that kind of it's just it's also just, you know, 292 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:03,000 S2: woken up this conversation or this political kind of dilemma 293 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,480 S2: that's been dormant on and off over the last two 294 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,760 S2: years around just how unsafe people in the Jewish community 295 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:13,120 S2: feel and their frustration and impatience with the government on that. 296 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,000 S2: And so I guess that that conversation is kind of 297 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:19,800 S2: and the tenor of it has existed without this event. 298 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:22,359 S2: And so there are the kind of those two things 299 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:24,680 S2: happening at once at a certain level, but they've obviously 300 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,399 S2: been brought together in a very intense way. 301 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,719 S1: Yeah, yeah. And I think, I mean, apart from the 302 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,199 S1: extremism and the clear sort of what looks very much 303 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,600 S1: like radicalization that's occurred with the with the alleged perpetrators, 304 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,000 S1: as you say, there's the separate issue of probably the 305 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:44,639 S1: normalization of anti-Semitism, which has coincided with the rise of, 306 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:49,399 S1: you know, the pro-Palestinian movement or the anti-Israel movement, the protests. 307 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:53,280 S1: And the fact has been that Jewish Australians, particularly, I think, 308 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:57,450 S1: in Sydney and Melbourne, have felt unsafe. They felt unwelcome 309 00:17:57,450 --> 00:18:02,970 S1: in certain spaces like university campuses, perhaps even some cultural institutions. 310 00:18:02,970 --> 00:18:05,810 S1: So it's had this huge ripple effect, and now we're 311 00:18:05,810 --> 00:18:08,690 S1: having a reckoning about it because we can't ignore it 312 00:18:08,690 --> 00:18:11,010 S1: anymore and we can't sweep it under the carpet anymore. 313 00:18:11,010 --> 00:18:14,450 S1: So yeah, Jewish Australians are rightfully sort of angry about that. 314 00:18:14,450 --> 00:18:16,850 S1: I guess to some. I just want to ask you 315 00:18:16,890 --> 00:18:20,810 S1: quickly about the immigration debate, because that's also been in there, 316 00:18:20,810 --> 00:18:22,649 S1: and I think there's probably a lot of people who 317 00:18:22,690 --> 00:18:26,170 S1: are bracing a little bit for what might come in 318 00:18:26,170 --> 00:18:29,010 S1: terms of will the immigration debate now get a bit ugly? 319 00:18:29,490 --> 00:18:32,450 S1: The coalition was already sort of was actually preparing to 320 00:18:32,490 --> 00:18:35,290 S1: release its immigration policy, I think, this week. And they've 321 00:18:35,290 --> 00:18:38,370 S1: now said they'll put that off for obvious reasons. Where 322 00:18:38,369 --> 00:18:40,130 S1: do you think the immigration debate is going to go 323 00:18:40,130 --> 00:18:42,810 S1: from now? Because we were already talking about it and 324 00:18:42,810 --> 00:18:44,970 S1: now this has happened. It feels like a bit of 325 00:18:45,010 --> 00:18:48,290 S1: a sort of match to match to a Tinder situation. 326 00:18:48,330 --> 00:18:51,290 S2: Yes, yes. I think that the government has also tried 327 00:18:51,290 --> 00:18:53,649 S2: to get on the front foot of that one with 328 00:18:53,650 --> 00:18:56,890 S2: its announcement that it will kind of change the threshold 329 00:18:56,890 --> 00:19:01,290 S2: or lower the threshold for canceling visas and refusing visas 330 00:19:01,290 --> 00:19:06,530 S2: on the grounds of kind of incitement to violence and antisemitism. 331 00:19:06,850 --> 00:19:11,770 S2: You know, Tony Burke has already been proactive in saying 332 00:19:11,810 --> 00:19:14,530 S2: for the last six months that he has cancelled more 333 00:19:14,530 --> 00:19:16,930 S2: visas on character grounds than most other ministers. 334 00:19:17,090 --> 00:19:21,129 S7: Have refused and canceled visas on the grounds of anti-Semitism 335 00:19:22,130 --> 00:19:25,369 S7: in a way that very few predecessors have. I don't 336 00:19:25,369 --> 00:19:29,450 S7: resile from that, and I've made clear on the balance 337 00:19:29,450 --> 00:19:34,010 S7: of bigotry versus freedom of speech. Uh, I, I think 338 00:19:34,090 --> 00:19:37,770 S7: Australians share my view that people who come here to hate, uh, 339 00:19:37,890 --> 00:19:39,129 S7: we just don't need them. 340 00:19:39,609 --> 00:19:42,770 S1: And he kicked a Nazi out of the country a 341 00:19:42,810 --> 00:19:43,330 S1: few weeks ago. 342 00:19:43,330 --> 00:19:45,570 S2: So there have been these kind of big, you know, 343 00:19:45,770 --> 00:19:48,210 S2: they feel kind of like a bit of a performance 344 00:19:48,210 --> 00:19:51,690 S2: in terms of this very public standard setting. And so 345 00:19:51,690 --> 00:19:55,660 S2: you've got that kind of continuing. I think the coalition's 346 00:19:55,700 --> 00:19:58,060 S2: kind of been running. It's, you know, doing its own 347 00:19:58,100 --> 00:20:02,940 S2: thing on immigration. That was put on pause this week. 348 00:20:03,460 --> 00:20:06,540 S2: I think we are seeing the conversation being stoked in 349 00:20:06,540 --> 00:20:11,540 S2: the coalition, uh, moving from it's not just a conversation 350 00:20:11,540 --> 00:20:14,619 S2: about how many people are coming to Australia, the conversation 351 00:20:14,619 --> 00:20:19,139 S2: about who is coming to Australia. Of course, of the 352 00:20:19,140 --> 00:20:23,340 S2: two shooters, the father came in the late 90s under 353 00:20:23,340 --> 00:20:26,820 S2: the Howard government on a student visa from India. The 354 00:20:26,820 --> 00:20:31,020 S2: son was born in Australia. As many point out, Ahmed 355 00:20:31,020 --> 00:20:33,580 S2: Al Ahmed, the person who tried to stop them, is 356 00:20:33,580 --> 00:20:37,980 S2: the most recent recent migrant of the bunch. A lot 357 00:20:37,980 --> 00:20:41,420 S2: of the people there in the Jewish community that day 358 00:20:41,460 --> 00:20:46,300 S2: were migrants from Russia and Eastern Europe. I don't think 359 00:20:46,300 --> 00:20:50,659 S2: this event has really given a clean let's blame the 360 00:20:50,660 --> 00:20:52,060 S2: migrants narrative. 361 00:20:52,380 --> 00:20:55,110 S1: No, no, I mean, but but let's be real. I mean, 362 00:20:55,109 --> 00:20:56,990 S1: let's cut to the chase. There will be some people 363 00:20:56,990 --> 00:21:00,270 S1: who basically say that we shouldn't bring in Muslim migrants. 364 00:21:00,310 --> 00:21:01,990 S1: I mean, that's that's the only thing that people are 365 00:21:01,990 --> 00:21:04,110 S1: going to say or that we should be we should 366 00:21:04,109 --> 00:21:08,790 S1: be screening Muslim migrants for extreme views, anti-Semitism, you know, 367 00:21:08,830 --> 00:21:09,230 S1: things that are. 368 00:21:09,470 --> 00:21:11,870 S2: It would be interesting to see how explicit I think 369 00:21:11,990 --> 00:21:15,750 S2: it gets because the, the yeah, you know, even the 370 00:21:15,790 --> 00:21:18,070 S2: in the Parliament, the, the furthest that people will go 371 00:21:18,070 --> 00:21:20,830 S2: is to say people need to agree with Australian values and, 372 00:21:20,830 --> 00:21:24,470 S2: you know, even Jacinta Price's comms material. Last week she 373 00:21:24,470 --> 00:21:28,190 S2: sent out an email about this to her subscribers and 374 00:21:28,190 --> 00:21:30,910 S2: spoke about the character of people coming. But, you know, 375 00:21:30,950 --> 00:21:33,390 S2: there are good people from Asia, from Europe who are 376 00:21:33,390 --> 00:21:36,190 S2: in our country, etc. so there are just so many 377 00:21:36,190 --> 00:21:39,629 S2: euphemisms in this conversation, I think. But as we know, 378 00:21:39,670 --> 00:21:43,629 S2: the problem is how that message is felt by people 379 00:21:43,630 --> 00:21:46,510 S2: in migrant communities and multicultural communities who do kind of 380 00:21:46,550 --> 00:21:49,670 S2: read between the lines with that one, and then what 381 00:21:49,670 --> 00:21:51,989 S2: that does to the social fabric. And that will be 382 00:21:51,990 --> 00:21:55,320 S2: a real challenge for Susan Lee as well. Because. Because 383 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:56,480 S2: she has been trying to. 384 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:57,560 S1: Yeah, absolutely. 385 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:02,600 S2: Land the right tone in a way that doesn't push 386 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,720 S2: people away. And that is still inclusive on this one. 387 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,080 S2: And yes, like you said, there's a little bit of 388 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:09,240 S2: a tinderbox here. 389 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,280 S1: Yeah. And the Liberal Party obviously needs to to be 390 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:16,000 S1: careful with ethnic communities because they've lost support there as 391 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,040 S1: well as in other areas in recent times. Um, thank 392 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,040 S1: you for joining us today to talk through these very 393 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,040 S1: heavy events. We've tried to be as sensitive as possible 394 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:28,879 S1: to all sides, um, while maintaining our usual rigor of analysis. 395 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,480 S1: I hope you'll join us next year in happier circumstances, 396 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:34,919 S1: I hope. And, um, have a good summer break. 397 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:36,840 S2: Thanks, Jack, and thanks, listeners. 398 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,520 S1: I want to say farewell. Merry Christmas and Happy holidays 399 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:46,840 S1: to our Inside Politics listeners, alongside deep, deep condolences from 400 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,800 S1: this podcast to the Australian Jewish community. We do so 401 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,000 S1: enjoy putting this podcast together and we very much appreciate 402 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,480 S1: your support. This is our last record of the year, 403 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,800 S1: but over summer, we will be putting out a reprise 404 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,960 S1: of the best episodes of 2025 before we return in 405 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,879 S1: late January. Thank you very much and see you in 2026. 406 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,640 S1: Today's episode was produced by Kai Wong with technical assistance 407 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:16,520 S1: from Debbie Harrington. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills, and 408 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:20,600 S1: special thanks to Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. To listen 409 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,119 S1: to our episodes as soon as they drop, follow Inside 410 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,560 S1: Politics on Apple, Spotify or anywhere else you listen to 411 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,960 S1: your podcasts. To stay up to date with all the politics, 412 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,000 S1: news and exclusives, visit The Age and The Sydney Morning 413 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:37,160 S1: Herald websites. To support our journalism, subscribe to us by 414 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:44,159 S1: visiting The Age or smh.com.au. I'm Jacqueline Maley, thanks for listening.