S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
S1: This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Cylinder Morris. It's Tuesday,
S1: March 4th. A meeting of world leaders is ordinarily a
S1: state affair, with much hand-shaking head nodding and talk of friendship.
S1: But not this one. American President Donald Trump browbeat and
S1: humiliated Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky in the Oval Office on Friday,
S1: during an extraordinary scene that played out in front of
S1: the world's media. But after Zelensky left the white House,
S1: he attended a critical summit in London with European leaders
S1: who have sworn to support him and Ukraine and draft
S1: a new peace plan today. Europe correspondent Rob Harris on
S1: the so-called coalition of the willing that British Prime Minister
S1: Sir Keir Starmer has proposed, and whether it might be
S1: enough to protect Ukraine and the rest of Europe from
S1: Russian aggression. So first off, Rob, we are all still
S1: talking about that extraordinary press conference in the Oval Office
S1: between Vladimir Zelensky and Donald Trump. So can you just
S1: briefly take us through what happened there?
S2: Well, yes. This was Vladimir Zelensky's first visit to the
S2: white House since Donald Trump came to power earlier this year.
S2: And things have been, well, a little tense of late.
S2: I think that might be an understatement. It seems like
S2: an eternity ago, but it was less than two weeks
S2: ago where Donald Trump referred to Zelensky as the dictator
S2: without elections. He blamed him for starting the war. That
S2: all seemed to have died down a bit the day
S2: before British Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer was in the
S2: Oval Office, and Trump was asked whether he still believes
S2: Zelensky was a dictator. And he said did I say that?
S2: I can't imagine I said that. So we thought then
S2: maybe things might be okay. And it was all a
S2: bit of show.
S3: Well, thank you very much. It's an honor to have
S3: President Zelensky of Ukraine.
S2: They talked for about 40 minutes, and then all of
S2: a sudden JD Vance, the vice president, basically started laying
S2: into Zelensky.
S4: And the path to prosperity is maybe engaging in diplomacy.
S5: What kind of diplomacy? JD, you are speaking about what
S5: what do you what do you what do you mean?
S4: I'm talking about the kind of diplomacy that's going to
S4: end the destruction of your country.
S5: Yes, but.
S4: Mr. President, Mr. president, with respect, I think it's disrespectful
S4: for you to come into the Oval Office and try
S4: to litigate this in front of the American media. Right now,
S4: you guys are going around.
S2: Complained that he hadn't showed enough appreciation. Zelensky, who looked
S2: pretty tired. And, you know, obviously English isn't his first language.
S2: I think it might be his sort of third or
S2: fourth got a little bit of a back up and
S2: he sort of snapped back at JD Vance. Trump then intervened.
S5: Beginning of the war.
S3: You're not in a good position. You don't have the
S3: cards right now with us. You start having cards.
S2: Playing cards basically said you're a you know, you're endangering
S2: the world for World War three. And and it all
S2: broke down from there. I don't think I've seen anything
S2: in my life like it.
S3: Disrespectful to the country. This country that's backed you far
S3: more than a lot of people said they should have.
S4: Have you said thank you once the entire meeting? No.
S2: And it really shocked the world. And I think, God,
S2: I think I've used that phrase about 3 or 4
S2: times in the past couple of weeks. But, but but
S2: it did shock the world.
S3: All right. I think we've seen enough. What do you think?
S3: What's this.
S6: Negotiation?
S3: This is going to be great television. I will say that.
UU: All right. We'll see what we can do about it.
UU: Thank you sir.
S1: And so tell us, why was Vladimir Zelensky actually there? Like,
S1: what was the purpose of the meeting? Well, of.
S2: Course he's been at war for I mean, you know,
S2: Ukraine's been at war with Russia for 11 years, and
S2: it's been three years since the full scale invasion. Trump
S2: has promised to to get a peace deal to end
S2: the war. He promised that before the election. Zelensky has
S2: for a number of months said he's willing to make
S2: a number of concessions to Russia, including territory for this
S2: to happen. But a couple of weeks ago, Trump announced
S2: the start of peace talks and the US went ahead
S2: with Russia in Saudi Arabia without Ukraine. This really upset
S2: the Ukrainians. It also upset a lot of Europeans that
S2: the idea that Ukraine might not be at the table
S2: for this peace deal, and that Trump and Putin might
S2: end up doing a deal between them and Ukraine would
S2: have to cough up with it. Zelensky expressed a bit
S2: of frustration with that. And finally, after a lot of
S2: lobbying from Emmanuel Macron, the president of France, and Keir Starmer,
S2: the British Prime Minister. Zelenskyy was there to to sort
S2: that out and to also sort out this minerals deal,
S2: which we've heard a lot about. We still don't know
S2: a lot of details about, but um, but that seems
S2: to be very much the key of what Donald Trump
S2: wants as well.
S1: And can you take us through just briefly what this,
S1: you know, potential minerals deal was because, of course, we
S1: know that Trump was after $500 billion worth. I think
S1: it was of raw minerals. Well that's.
S2: Right. Look, I mean, the Americans and well, the MAGA people,
S2: the Trump administration believe that they've given a lot of
S2: money to Ukraine over the past three years, and they
S2: haven't got anything back as part of getting some of
S2: that money back. They want to go into partnership with
S2: Ukraine to sort of develop rare earth and raw materials
S2: like lithium and cobalt and nickel, and the US wanted
S2: to basically get about half of it and basically ensure
S2: that American investment American know how and technology went into
S2: Ukraine to really help the country rebuild and kick start
S2: its economy post war.
S1: Okay. And so after this, I guess what's now going
S1: down as a legendary meeting of Volodymyr Zelensky flew to
S1: where you are, which is in London.
S7: The motorcade swept past cheering crowds on Whitehall, through the
S7: gates of Downing Street and straight into a friendly embrace
S7: with the Prime Minister. A hug. A handshake. The contrast
S7: couldn't be more stark.
S1: The reception he was given, there was sort of very,
S1: very different to what happened there in the Oval Office.
S1: So tell us about that.
S2: Obviously, Friday's events were huge, but I think the past
S2: two weeks in general, J.D. Vance's speech in Munich are
S2: the decision for Trump to open peace talks with Putin
S2: have really jolted Europe in a way, it hasn't been
S2: jolted for a long, long time. And I think Friday
S2: was sort of the icing on the cake. Keir Starmer
S2: hit the phones, got a lot of support from European leaders,
S2: including the NATO leader Mark Rutte. Ursula von der Leyen
S2: at the European Commission. They're now planning basically not only
S2: for their own security, but for Ukraine's security to go
S2: ahead alone.
S1: And so let's get to that, because one idea that
S1: emerged on Sunday was for the creation of a new
S1: so-called European Coalition of the willing. So tell us about this.
S1: What would this be and how would it help Ukraine?
S2: Yeah, that's right. I guess when people hear the phrase
S2: coalition of the willing, they think back to Iraq and
S2: Afghanistan after nine over 11. But this is very much,
S2: I guess, France and Britain going it alone.
S8: A hastily called summit at what Britain's prime minister calls
S8: a pivotal moment.
S9: We are at a crossroads in history today. This is
S9: not a moment for more talk. It's time to act.
S2: They're willing to propose, at this stage, a one month
S2: truce in the air and by sea, and also protecting
S2: critical infrastructure such as the energy grid in return for
S2: some sort of peace deal. Now, this won't include troops
S2: on the ground, which we've heard a lot of from
S2: Keir Starmer and even Emmanuel Macron. That won't be at
S2: the the first phase that would be at a sort
S2: of second.
S9: Phase is prepared to back this with boots on the
S9: ground and planes in the air together with others. Europe
S9: must do the heavy lifting.
S1: We'll be right back. So, Rob, can you tell us
S1: more about this so-called coalition of the willing? Like, how
S1: would this actually work? I mean, is it using the
S1: NATO pact? Wouldn't Russia have to agree to it? And
S1: wouldn't the U.S. actually have to be involved?
S2: Well, that's right. And this is why it's so hard
S2: to to predict. Basically we're in we're in rare territory.
S2: For the past 80 years, Europe has basically been able
S2: to be reassured that the US would come to its
S2: would come to its our at a time of need.
S2: Of course, that we had the NATO pact where there
S2: are 32 members of NATO, most of them in Europe.
S2: Obviously America and obviously Canada, they have article five, which
S2: means if any one of them are attacked, then all
S2: the others would come and support them. This is a
S2: framework that that has been relied upon for a long time,
S2: and now it's up in the air. So what Europe
S2: feels like is it's important to show that it is
S2: prepared to do it alone, and that it can show America.
S2: And Donald Trump, who has campaigned on ending the war,
S2: certainly doesn't want to send any US troops anywhere. They
S2: want to show the Americans that they are willing to
S2: stand up for their own security. Keir Starmer announced he
S2: would boost the GDP ratio of defence spending. Emmanuel Macron
S2: has said tonight he thinks every European country countries should
S2: be sending 3 to 3.5% of GDP. So really, a
S2: lot of this will be trying to placate Donald Trump's
S2: criticisms that he's had for a long time, that Europe
S2: has underspent underinvested and relied too heavily on America to
S2: come to its safety. He thinks it's got themselves into
S2: this mess with Russia, and it can get itself out
S2: of it.
S1: And so are we really talking about like a brand
S1: new security agreement then?
S2: Well, Frederick Mertz, he is the likely new chancellor of Germany. Now,
S2: the night he won the election, he got up and said,
S2: what we've seen in the past week is that we
S2: can no longer rely on United States. We really have
S2: to step by step, go it alone and become independent
S2: from America. He also flagged that within the months to come,
S2: there's a NATO conference in June, I think, in The Hague.
S2: He sort of said NATO might not exist by then,
S2: and we might have to draw up a new security
S2: framework for Europe that doesn't involve America. Now, Macron and
S2: Starmer have both gone and seen Donald Trump in the
S2: past week, and they've reiterated today that none of this
S2: can happen without some sort of American backstop, is what
S2: Starmer is calling it now. We think American know how
S2: will have to be involved, but they don't want to
S2: carry the can themselves. They certainly don't want to lead,
S2: and they want Europe to stand on their own two feet.
S10: And so would this.
S1: New level of support from European leaders. Would it actually
S1: be enough to fight off Russia without U.S. support?
S11: Well, it's a good question.
S2: And I guess it has been pointed out a number
S2: of times in the past, you know, few months that
S2: Russia is obviously a very big nation with a big army,
S2: but in three years it's really become bogged down in
S2: Ukraine and hasn't progressed a lot. Now, inch by inch,
S2: it has, um, it is bigger, it is mightier than Ukraine.
S2: But Ukraine has obviously done some incredible fighting. Now people
S2: point to that saying, well, if they can't. They promise
S2: to take Kyiv in three days. They haven't got anywhere
S2: near it in three years. How much of a threat
S2: are they? Actually? But it is important to remember they
S2: have as many nuclear weapons as the US. And I
S2: guess a lot of this concern around a ceasefire goes
S2: to the fact that it might give Vladimir Putin time
S2: to rearm, replenish stocks, replenish his troops, and it might
S2: give them the chance to sort of reassess the whole
S2: situation and open up a new front. So Europe has
S2: a lot of money. It has a big population. But
S2: Donald Trump has been criticized fairly for a lot of things.
S2: But he was probably correct in his first term where
S2: he did say that Europe has underspent, it has not
S2: taken control of the situation. And I think people like
S2: Emmanuel Macron in France have been saying for a long time,
S2: you know, Europe really needs to wake up. It's in
S2: grave danger unless it's prepared to stand on its own feet,
S2: prepared to rearm, replenish its own stocks, and really take control.
S1: And finally, Rob, what happens with Ukraine's relationship with the
S1: United States from here?
S2: Well, it's a really good question. Um, there is a
S2: school of thought that, you know, was this perhaps a trap?
S2: Did Donald Trump and JD Vance set up Zelensky to
S2: to play for their own audience? Was Zelensky in on
S2: the trap to maybe jolt Europe into action? Was it real?
S2: And I think, you know, Donald Trump has a reality
S2: TV background. We all saw he actually said, this is
S2: great television. This is a rivalry or a relationship that
S2: goes back way back to 2019, when Donald Trump appeared
S2: to pressure Zelensky when he was a newly elected president.
S2: In a phone call, he called him and and basically
S2: asked him to investigate Joe Biden and Joe Biden's son,
S2: who had a business investment with a Ukrainian energy company. Now,
S2: Trump then allegedly withheld military aid because Zelensky didn't agree
S2: to do this as leverage. And, of course, when a
S2: whistleblower came to light, the House of Representatives voted to
S2: impeach Trump. There's been a number of stories saying that
S2: Trump really blames a lot of his problems in the
S2: first term on Zelensky and on Ukraine. So this is personal.
S2: Every one of Zelensky's friends, from Keir Starmer to Emmanuel
S2: Macron to Mark Rutte to NATO, are urging him to
S2: make up and make nice with Trump to apologize. He
S2: has said he doesn't think Friday's incident is a roadblock
S2: towards getting a peace deal, is a roadblock in their relationship.
S2: Hasn't apologized, but he's reiterated his support to to the
S2: US a number of times. He's been skeptical that Europe
S2: can help on its own, he thinks. He needs the
S2: US support, but he's hopeful he can get there.
S1: Well, thank you so much, Rob, for your time.
S11: No worries.
S1: Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself
S1: and Tammy Mills, with technical assistance by Josh towers. Tom
S1: McKendrick is our head of audio. The Morning Edition is
S1: a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald.
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S1: Samantha Selinger. Morris. This is the morning edition. Thanks for listening.