S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
S1: This is inside politics. I'm Jacqueline Maley, it's Thursday, May 22nd.
S1: It was high drama this week, with the nationals telling
S1: the liberals that they wanted a political divorce, a possible
S1: split in the coalition, which has existed in some form
S1: or another since 1923, was sparked by nationals leader David
S1: Littleproud insisting on certain policies, notably an ongoing commitment to
S1: nuclear power, which Liberal leader Sussan Ley felt she could
S1: not agree to. But by Thursday afternoon the separation, like
S1: a marriage on the rocks, was placed on hold while
S1: further conversations took place. So what happened and what's going
S1: to be better for both parties and indeed for the
S1: political health of the nation? Here to discuss all this drama,
S1: we have our freshly minted chief political commentator, James Massola,
S1: and also freshly minted, our political correspondent Natassia Chrysanthos. Welcome
S1: to you both. James, tell us how these dramatic events
S1: came about. We know that nationals leader David Littleproud drove
S1: to Albury on Wednesday last week to negotiate the coalition
S1: agreement with the new Liberal leader, Sussan Ley, who was
S1: with her dying mother. What did Littleproud want? What were
S1: his demands?
S2: Look, the starting point for the demands, jacki, was four
S2: things he wanted the coalition or the nationals, one of
S2: the coalition, to remain committed to nuclear power, to remain
S2: committed to laws that could potentially force supermarkets to sell
S2: some of their outlets if they were found to be,
S2: you know, engaged in anti-competitive conduct, um, you know, sought
S2: to divest, um, they wanted a $20 billion regional future fund, uh,
S2: which they'd taken to the last election to be kept
S2: in place. And they wanted basically updated provisions for the
S2: universal service obligation that, uh, telecoms providers are obligated to provide,
S2: which means, you know, decent reception essentially for your mobile
S2: phone in the bush, Decent mail service, those sorts of things.
S1: And they also were asking for basically no cabinet solidarity
S1: that they wouldn't have to be bound by cabinet solidarity
S1: with the liberals. Right?
S2: Yeah. Which look, quite frankly, is an extraordinary request and
S2: unprecedented request and one that, you know, no leader could
S2: ever agree to. But yes, that was the final thing.
S2: It's something that David Littleproud didn't mention at all during
S2: his sort of, you know, the big press conference announcing
S2: the split, but which the liberals have been very keen
S2: to say, well, hang on, there was this other thing
S2: and it's kind of a non-negotiable.
S1: So they're basically saying we demand these four key policies, which,
S1: to be fair, are nationalist policies that they're obviously they've
S1: developed and they stand by. But we also want the
S1: right to speak out against any other policies within the
S1: coalition that we don't agree with.
S2: Yeah. And, you know, to my exact point like that
S2: would be unprecedented, Jack. You don't get the luxury of
S2: doing that. You have the argument in the cabinet room
S2: or the shadow Cabinet Room. This is how politics has
S2: worked for, you know, You know, 130, whatever it is,
S2: years you have the arguments in the room, you settle
S2: the position, you come out and you present a united front.
S2: So for the Nats and the libs to be sort
S2: of if, if it were to have been approved for
S2: them to be coming out saying, well, we take a
S2: different position on this, it would be without precedent.
S1: Yeah. It was almost like a sort of a demand
S1: that there was no way that Susan Lee was ever
S1: going to be able to take it up to us.
S1: How did Lee respond to those demands? So there in
S1: Albury and Susan Lee, we should say, is having the
S1: worst week of her life or one of the worst
S1: weeks of her life, because she's nursing her mother through
S1: her last days of her life and then having to
S1: arrange a funeral. So all of this is happening in
S1: tandem with that, um, Littleproud comes to her with these demands.
S1: What does she say?
S3: She says no. In short, um, and that's for a
S3: kind of two main reasons. On the cabinet solidarity point.
S3: As James just mentioned, it's untenable to have shadow ministers
S3: who disagree with the position of the party. Um, so
S3: that was never going to work. And then on the
S3: policy points. So these were coalition policies going into the election.
S3: The National's argument were these are the policies we promised
S3: voters who elected us. We owe it to them. But
S3: Lee came out on her first day as leader and
S3: said no policies adopted, no policies abandoned. We are going
S3: to start from scratch on everything. And she made that
S3: as an undertaking to her party room, and she made
S3: that as an undertaking to the Australian people. Um, and so,
S3: you know, you can see both of their interests coming
S3: through here. Um, the nationals have fought hard for these policies.
S3: They said, we want to go forward and build on them.
S3: We don't have to want to have to relitigate all
S3: of those things. That's a reasonable point from their perspective.
S1: I mean, in defence of the Nat's position, I suppose
S1: they're saying that they want to keep faith with the
S1: voters that have just elected them on the back of
S1: these policies. But the liberals have a divergent sort of interest,
S1: which is we just got roundly sort of executed at
S1: the polls because of our policies. So we obviously need
S1: to rebuild and remake those policies to keep faith with
S1: our voters.
S3: Yeah, and that was the point that Zoe McKenzie, um,
S3: a Liberal moderate MP made this week, which is, I think,
S3: why a few liberals are saying, you know, this is
S3: kind of the way it is those policies let the
S3: nationals keep all of their seats. And those policies potentially
S3: contributed to the loss of dozens of Liberal seats. So
S3: they've got very different interests here.
S1: Therein lies the entire sort of dilemma. Lee, after this,
S1: she said no to those demands. The Nats had a
S1: party room meeting and they decided they were not going
S1: to back down. Lee put a counter offer, I think,
S1: in the following days, and said she just wanted to
S1: sort the frontbench out first and, you know, her shadow ministry.
S1: And then the Nats had another meeting, I think, on
S1: Tuesday morning. And that was when they decided to formally
S1: break with the liberals. But how much notice, James, did
S1: David Littleproud give uh, give Sussan Ley before he announced
S1: it publicly.
S2: It was about 45 minutes. Um, yeah. They met Tuesday
S2: morning at around 1015, 1030. I just happened to be
S2: walking around the corridors of Parliament and saw Littleproud walking
S2: into Lee's office. Um, we know it was from what
S2: Susan said, a 30 minute meeting, pretty quick and fairly
S2: pro forma. And then he walked out and said, right,
S2: you know, 45 minutes notice.
S4: Our party room has got to a position where we
S4: will not be reentering a coalition agreement with the Liberal
S4: Party after this election.
S2: So she convened Sussan Ley an emergency meeting of the
S2: Liberal Party party room to let them know what had happened.
S5: And while I have enormous respect for David and his team,
S5: it is disappointing that the National Party has decided today
S5: to leave the coalition. But the most important thing I
S5: want to say is this the nationals door remains open
S5: and our door remains open, and we look forward with
S5: optimism to rejoining at some point in the future.
S2: If we could just dial back one step here, Jackie.
S2: I want to make a couple of points. Susan Lee's
S2: been the leader of the Liberal Party for. I think
S2: it's nine days now. This happened on the seventh day.
S2: Her mum had died three days earlier. She was in Albury,
S2: you know, beginning to make the arrangements for, um, for
S2: a funeral. Um, she had said very clearly and very publicly,
S2: we are going to take our time and digest this
S2: election result because, you know, as Tarr said, it was
S2: a thumping.
S5: Can I firstly thank David Littleproud for driving down the
S5: Hume Highway to meet me in my office in my
S5: home town so that I could spend my mum's final
S5: days close to her.
S2: The Liberal Party hadn't even had a chance to meet
S2: to consider the National Party's demands. Those four main demands,
S2: all four of them, are probably likely to have been
S2: supported by the Liberal Party.
S1: The policies?
S2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. Yes. The policies. Yeah. But it
S2: was a timing thing. The Nats wanted it immediately. It was, um,
S2: you know, in my view, uh confected demands. I mean,
S2: it's not like, um, the liberals suddenly going to completely
S2: change what they believe and say, no, we're not going
S2: to do any of this stuff that we've believed in until,
S2: you know, six weeks ago or whenever the election was.
S2: It's a confected set of reasons to leave. I think
S2: the real reason why the Nats have left is because
S2: of net zero. Now they deny that.
S1: And just remind listeners that the coalition remains formally committed
S1: to net zero emissions by 2050. But obviously, we know
S1: that the nationals have been very keen to abandon that
S1: arrangement and want the liberals to do so, too. So
S1: that's sort of been a key tension point in the
S1: climate wars over the last ten years, you could say.
S1: Let's turn to what happened on Thursday afternoon. Now, it's
S1: hard to keep up, actually, with what seems to be
S1: like a toxic marriage, where one minute there's a breakup,
S1: the next minute there's a make up, just like the
S1: Katy Perry song. Tell us what's happened on Thursday afternoon.
S3: So, quite remarkably, 48 hours after David Littleproud said the
S3: nationals would be leaving the coalition for the first time
S3: in 38 years, that is no longer definitely the case.
S3: So Littleproud on Thursday gave a sudden press conference in
S3: the corridors of parliament.
S6: All good.
S4: Thank you. We've, uh you're right.
S3: In which he said that the breakup was basically a
S3: break and they were on pause.
S4: In a mature and sensible way. And I'm proud of
S4: the fact that our guys are prepared to to accept
S4: that in being sent home today, despite the fact that
S4: I was about to announce to you all this afternoon,
S4: our shadow spokesman, because I think this is a far
S4: more important.
S3: Littleproud and Lee had planned, uh, on Thursday afternoon to
S3: reveal their respective shadow cabinets. So they're the spokespeople that
S3: talk about things like Treasury and Foreign Affairs and whatnot.
S3: And they were going to go it alone, but they
S3: had both decided to call that off while they tried
S3: to broker some kind of agreement. And basically where we
S3: got to was that this these sticking points around the
S3: four policies that the nationals wanted, they would give the
S3: liberals time to at least have a conversation about those
S3: before pulling the plug.
S7: Or getting back together.
S4: After. Hold on, hold on. I'm sorry.
S8: So you're getting back together?
S4: No. This will allow time for a process for Susan
S4: Lee to call her party room together to discuss those
S4: four policy areas.
S3: Quite interestingly, this all played out over the ABC. Um,
S3: because on Wednesday night, you had national Senator Bridget McKenzie
S3: go on Sarah Ferguson's 730 program and say the only
S3: thing we care about is the four policies. Um, Sarah
S3: Ferguson asked her, well, what about Susan Lee's claim about
S3: this shadow cabinet confidentiality point? McKenzie said, that's not a
S3: problem for us. Someone in Lee's office was watching and
S3: quite displeased by that version of events, so they texted
S3: in to the ABC. Um, and so by the end
S3: of the program, Sarah Ferguson's there saying, you know, Lee's
S3: contacted us to dispute this basically, and says they've got
S3: in writing that the Knights did want this shadow cabinet
S3: confidentiality exemption.
S9: Now, as that interview played, we've just received a note
S9: from Susan Lee's office saying it is not correct to
S9: suggest that Shadow Cabinet solidarity was not a sticking point
S9: and they that is Susan Lee's office have that in writing.
S3: So everyone went to bed on Wednesday night and then
S3: lo and behold, Thursday morning David Littleproud is again on
S3: the ABC. He's asked what's the go basically. And he says, no,
S3: Susan didn't agree to this shadow cabinet confidentiality thing. And
S3: that's perfectly reasonable. That's fine with us. We just want
S3: our four policies. And so apparently Lee's office heard this
S3: and they were like la di da great. Come back in,
S3: let's talk about it. And as simply as that, um,
S3: the the backtrack was done.
S2: It's great to see the national broadcaster playing such an
S2: important role in the lives of our conservative parties. Indeed,
S2: they often criticise aunty, but yeah.
S1: I know they're actually mediating. It's mediating this dispute between
S1: the two conservative parties. Um, I mean, I keep sort
S1: of coming back to this metaphor of the toxic marriage
S1: which everybody is going for, but it feels like that
S1: felt like gaslighting to me. what David Littleproud did. Um, anyway, James,
S1: is it possible to predict where this is going to go?
S2: Yeah. I mean, I thought the whole way through that, um,
S2: they'll get back together at some point, but not, you know,
S2: given what we've heard from Susan Lee and what have you,
S2: not in this term or only towards the end of
S2: this term. I mean, I've straight after this, uh, you know,
S2: recordings done. Jack, I've got to go to my physio
S2: and get this whiplash treated. It's, um, it's just the
S2: events of the last couple of days are quite extraordinary.
S2: And look, um, put aside what David Littleproud and Bridget
S2: McKenzie are saying. You know, put aside the posturing. This
S2: is a win for Sussan Ley. And she was right
S2: to say shadow cabinet confidentiality must be maintained. I mean
S2: she she didn't give ground. That's the right thing to do.
S2: Now we're seeing a back down. And, you know, quite
S2: frankly a very embarrassing backdown for the nationals and for me, Jacqui,
S2: the question then becomes, uh, one about David Littleproud's Judgment
S2: and the judgment of the leadership team in the nets.
S2: What were they doing if they get back together two
S2: days after this breakup or whatever you want to call it?
S2: It's it's it's ludicrous. Frankly, I don't have another word
S2: for it. So yes, they can get back together, but
S2: can he stay?
S3: And realistically, they're not going to get those four demands
S3: set in stone by the time that a shadow cabinet
S3: needs to be named in July when Parliament returns. So
S3: he said that on Thursday. He said, you know, ideally
S3: we walk back into Parliament with our shadow cabinet. So
S3: you have, you know, you know, who's who in the
S3: zoo when you sit in your first Question time.
S1: Was he saying, just to clarify, sorry to interrupt. Was
S1: he saying that they want a coalition shadow cabinet.
S3: Ideally a coalition shadow cabinet back together. They want that
S3: ideally by July 22nd. So they look they look like
S3: they know what they're doing. And then, you know, the
S3: nuts don't have to go sit with the teals and
S3: the greens. They can sit on their coalition side. But
S3: there is no way that the liberals form their energy
S3: policy and decide what they're doing on that by the
S3: 22nd of July. And similarly, they've committed to a root
S3: and branch review of all their policies. Um, that's probably
S3: going to take half a year. So either way, I
S3: think the nationals are coming back probably knowing that baking
S3: in for policies into all four policies, into a coalition
S3: agreement within the next six weeks is probably not going
S3: to happen.
S2: But it's not without precedent either. Look, it's important to
S2: make this point for the listeners here. Some coalition agreements
S2: do have specific policy demands written into them. 2016 When
S2: Malcolm Turnbull just snuck back into government, there was a
S2: protracted negotiation then over what the nationals wanted. And, you know,
S2: Malcolm Turnbull did give some ground. There were some policies,
S2: as I understand it written in, but on other occasions
S2: it's just a sort of bare bones agreement. This is
S2: how many, um, you know, shadow cabinet or cabinet spots.
S2: We're entitled. This is how many you get. We'll work
S2: together and that's it basically. Then they work it out
S2: on a piecemeal basis.
S1: It's not always an ironclad prenup. It's more of a
S1: kind of broad brushstrokes, agreement in a lot of cases.
S2: Precisely.
S1: Listen, guys, this is fascinating. It's going to keep playing out.
S1: So we're going to come back to you whenever we
S1: need to. Probably next week to get the next installment.
S1: And who knows where this crazy ride will end. So
S1: thanks very much.
S2: Thanks very much, Jack.
S3: Thanks.
S1: Today's episode was produced by Tammy Mills with technical assistance
S1: from Debbie Harrington and Belen Sanchez. Tom McKendrick is our
S1: head of audio. To listen to our episodes as soon
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S1: or smh.com.au. I'm Jacqueline Maley. Thank you for listening.