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S1: Hey, I'm Osman Farooqui and this is the drop a

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S1: culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age,

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S1: where we dive into the latest in the world of

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S1: pop culture and entertainment. I'm here, as usual, with Thomas

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S1: Mitchell and Mel Cambrai. Folks what's up? How are we doing?

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S2: We're doing good. Before we dive into the podcast killers

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S2: of the Flower Moon. Of course, as promised for the

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S2: past two weeks, I thought I'd update everyone on my

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S2: latest cinema experience with Thomas. I know that everyone likes

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S2: to know how you know how we see the movies

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S2: together and the incidences that occur.

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S1: Absolutely they do.

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S2: We were saying that I think we only go to

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S2: movies with each other now. I know all.

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S3: The movies I've seen this year basically been with you

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S3: or alone, so.

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S2: I know, but this cinema session where we went to

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S2: go see killers, you had a bit of an incident

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S2: with the sausage.

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S3: Roll. I mean, that makes it sound far more perverted

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S3: than actually was.

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S2: Okay, but what? Here's a question for you. What is

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S2: the etiquette about eating in a cinema? Because the story

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S2: that precedes this is that Thomas, for some reason, decided

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S2: a sausage roll was what he needed to eat during

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S2: the cinema. It was messy. It was crunchy. We were

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S2: with other reviewers. I was like, you are not respecting

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S2: the sanctity of the cinema. And then when it finished,

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S2: we got up and there was just like this. It's

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S2: like Hansel and Gretel, just like this breadcrumb of pastry mess.

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S2: And I was outraged.

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S3: I know you because you. You're such a food shame

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S3: like you are. You just like anyone that eats like

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S3: Mel likes to eat in a dark room alone. So

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S3: no one ever knows it takes place. And then she

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S3: comes out and then that's it. And whenever we eat together,

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S3: she's always like, oh, it's oh, everything's going everywhere.

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S2: You are noisy eater, like we said, like the clanging

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S2: of the screen. But I'm not a.

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S1: Huge fan of messy or noisy foods in movie theaters.

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S1: That said, like, I do quite like, you know, kettle

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S1: chili chips on my favorite sort of foods to eat,

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S1: including movies. And you reach slowly into the bag, right?

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S1: I'm trying to make as little noise as possible, but

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S1: that crunch feels like the loudest noise ever made when you're.

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S3: And then you've got this passive aggressive person next to you.

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S3: He's like shooting looks every time you eat. The funny

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S3: thing was so like, obviously I'm not an animal. I

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S3: wouldn't choose a cereal as my food of choice. But

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S3: I was running late. I went to the cafe next

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S3: door to the cinema. It was literally my choice was

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S3: sausage roll or like one of those takeaway salads. It

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S3: was like soba noodles, which would have been even more

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S3: like insanely tricky.

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S2: Tricky McGee. Yeah.

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S3: So I was like, okay, funnily enough, when I went

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S3: to pay for the sausage roll, the machine broke and

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S3: the guy's like, oh, I've got to change the receipt

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S3: thing over. It's a whole thing. And he's like, do

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S3: you work in the building? Can you come back tomorrow?

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S3: It's like, absolutely I do, bro. $7. And then I

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S3: got into the cinema, told me, and she was like,

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S3: oh my God, I can't believe you stole that sausage.

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S3: I was like, well, it's a victimless.

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S2: And you said that heists don't happen anymore. Here they are.

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S1: You just you buried the lead on this sausage roll story.

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S2: I know, I mean, I didn't want him to be

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S2: arrested because what he did was. Yeah, I.

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S3: Mean, look, $7, the universe owes me that. Anyway, more importantly,

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S3: I needed the sustenance for this three hour and 26

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S3: minute film, which was great, but I'm sure we're about

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S3: to get deep on it. Yeah, we.

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S1: Should probably actually talk about the movie rather than you're

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S1: eating and stealing habits. So today on the show, we

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S1: are talking about killers of the Flower Moon, which is

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S1: in Australian cinemas this week.

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S4: Whose land is this? My land.

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S5: Well, well, well. Our war hero has arrived. He made

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S5: a good choice coming back here. He's our finest, wealthiest

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S5: and most beautiful people on God's earth. Yeah. It's smart. Everybody.

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S5: They have the same. Who gets the oil? Son, I

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S5: got a question. Do you like.

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S4: Women? That's my weakness.

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S1: It's the latest film by Martin Scorsese, starring Leonardo DiCaprio,

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S1: Robert De Niro and Lily Gladstone, as well as covering

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S1: the film itself and our impressions of it. We're also

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S1: going to be going deep on Scorsese and his body

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S1: of work, from Taxi Driver to The Wolf of Wall Street,

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S1: his long term collaborators like De Niro and DiCaprio. And

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S1: I think what he's been trying to tell us about America,

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S1: the state of the world throughout his career. And before

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S1: we get into the film killers of the Flower Moon,

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S1: I wanted to ask each of you guys about your relationship,

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S1: kind of briefly to Martin Scorsese. Do you remember the

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S1: first of his films you watched and what your kind

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S1: of reaction to it was?

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S2: I do, mine was Taxi Driver, 1976 when I started

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S2: working here. That's a joke. That's a joke? Yeah. Taxi

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S2: driver was the first one that I saw, and I

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S2: remember just being obsessed by it. Like Travis Bickle, his

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S2: descent into madness. This lonely insomniac who works as a

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S2: taxi driver and is dismayed by the moral corruption of

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S2: American society. And I will never forget that kind of

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S2: scene where he's standing in front of the mirror and

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S2: he starts doing weights, and he's talking about how from

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S2: now on will be total organization. No more pills, no

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S2: more bad food, no more destroyers of my body. That

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S2: scene I remember was incredible.

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S1: Sounds like Thomas. Every morning.

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S3: Before I deep throat a sausage.

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S2: Roll. Apart from the total organization. Yeah. And then I

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S2: think I actually went through the 70s and 80s. Scorseses first.

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S2: So like Raging Bull and then King of Comedy, which

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S2: I really loved, and then probably followed along with the

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S2: more contemporary ones as they've been released. But I don't

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S2: know if he's ever really topped that kind of 70s 80s.

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S2: But I do think later on in this kind of

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S2: last decade of films, I've really enjoyed what he's been doing,

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S2: and it's been pretty remarkable to watch.

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S3: Yeah, I mean, I think, like, I feel like we

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S3: might have the same answer, Osbourne but.

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S1: You and I have bizarrely lived the same life.

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S3: I mean, obviously my entry point was Goodfellas, possibly the

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S3: greatest film ever made. Like, so my dad, it's actually

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S3: really weird. Like, I was watching Taxi Driver back yesterday.

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S3: My dad and Robert De Niro looked so similar at

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S3: that age. It's like fucking unnerving. But yeah, my dad

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S3: is a big Scorsese fan, and Goodfellas was very big

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S3: in our house. It was part of kind of like

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S3: a mob culture that existed. Like we were like watching

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S3: The Sopranos, watching The Godfather one, two, and three at

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S3: an age. It was like, definitely not appropriate for me.

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S3: But yeah, Goodfellas. I just like as a young person

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S3: watching this film, it was just like, it's such a

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S3: introduction to the world of, like proper cinema. Like every

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S3: everything is so considered. I hadn't really seen movies like that,

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S3: and it's one of the few movies I genuinely like

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S3: return to and watch, like probably every couple of years.

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S3: And as I said, probably one of the best films ever.

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S3: But yeah, Goodfellas for me is like the film that

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S3: I think of when I think of Scorsese.

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S1: Yeah, same for me. And it was my mum, actually,

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S1: who was my introduction to Scorsese and to a lot

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S1: of like my favorite films, like her three favourite films

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S1: are probably The Godfather, The Godfather two and Goodfellas, which

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S1: is a really funny choice, I reckon, if you know

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S1: anything about my mom. But I remember her sitting me

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S1: down and being like, we're going to watch Goodfellas. Like,

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S1: this is, I think maybe it was on TV. And

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S1: she's like, time for you to learn about cinema and

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S1: like the way the world works. And exactly like you said,

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S1: like that movie. Like, I watched it again last night, actually,

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S1: I watched a few of Scorsese films yesterday to kind

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S1: of get myself into the zone to talk about his filmography,

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S1: I guess more generally. And it is like, astonishing, right?

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S1: Like everything about that movie, the soundtrack, the acting, the

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S1: kind of the bit players who then pop up again

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S1: in The Sopranos like ten years later. It's really, really

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S1: like fun and interesting as well as having a lot

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S1: to say about, I think, America and and economic relations

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S1: and just what it means to kind of be a

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S1: man in the 20th century, which is when the movie

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S1: came out. How are you guys feeling in the lead

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S1: up to killers of the Flower Moon? As people who

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S1: have enjoyed Scorseses work, was this something you were hyped for?

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S1: Was there any kind of like, anxiety about Marty kind

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S1: of getting into the latter part of his career?

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S3: I did have like a dual anxiety because a it's

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S3: kind of been in like production hell for a little while.

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S3: Partly to blame is Covid, but I feel like any

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S3: time a movie has been, like long rumored and yet

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S3: to surface, it's always a bad sign. So that kind

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S3: of concerned me. And then on the other hand, I

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S3: didn't love The Irishman, his last film. Lots of people

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S3: did like it kind of meant to be the, you know,

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S3: the trilogy with Goodfellas and. Casino and then The Irishman.

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S3: I just didn't love it. I hated the de-aging and

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S3: stuff like that. It just also felt weird watching a

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S3: Martin Scorsese film that was like Netflix branded. I don't know,

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S3: the whole thing just didn't sit well with me. So

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S3: those two things made me think like, okay, this is

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S3: not probably the most excited I've been going into a

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S3: Scorsese film, but I always give him the benefit of

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S3: the doubt. But that was kind of my headspace for it.

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S2: Yeah, I, I was excited to see it. As I

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S2: just mentioned, I kind of feel like this latter part

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S2: of his career has been pretty impressive. Films like Wolf

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S2: of Wall Street and Silence, and I liked The Irishman

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S2: as well, so I was I was excited to see

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S2: his next project.

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S1: Mel, do you like The Irishman? You're the only woman

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S1: I know who liked that movie.

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S2: That's amazing. Yeah, because of I mean, I know there

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S2: was a lot of complaints about the lack of women

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S2: in it, but often I think that's what he's dealing with,

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S2: isn't it? It's not like the men come off particularly well,

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S2: like we're looking at a very kind of.

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S1: Look, I'm glad you said it. I don't want to

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S1: be accused of misogyny again on this podcast. But like,

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S1: I think if you watch Marty's films and you watch

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S1: something like Taxi Driver, Raging Bull, and you're like, this

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S1: guy really loves toxic masculinity, I think you're really missing

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S1: the point.

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S2: Yeah. Agree. My only anxiety and actually maybe it was

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S2: more in interest as well as an anxiety, was the

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S2: topic like the kind of mass murder of members of

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S2: the Osage community? Like, how do you approach that in

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S2: a way that a doesn't victimize those members of the

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S2: community or doesn't sensationalize their killers? Like? To me, that's

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S2: a really interesting dilemma. And I think you have to

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S2: be a pretty bold and brave director to take on

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S2: something like that, particularly when you're not a member of

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S2: that community. So I was curious about how he would

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S2: also make it an enthralling film that wasn't too labored

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S2: by the kind of world in the context in which

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S2: it's being delivered. So I was curious about that.

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S3: Did you feel more hyped, Osmond, because you read the

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S3: book recently?

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S1: Yeah, I really did. Like I read the book because

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S1: I wanted to read it before watching the film, and

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S1: I think I've said it multiple times on this show

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S1: with you guys. One of the most incredible nonfiction, kind

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00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:19,189
S1: of like narrative investigative pieces of literature I've ever read.

224
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S1: And thinking about Martin Scorsese, he adapting this story with

225
00:10:24,170 --> 00:10:28,040
S1: Leo and De Niro had me really excited. That was

226
00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:30,650
S1: my sort of headspace leading up into it. I think

227
00:10:30,650 --> 00:10:33,140
S1: it's time to talk about it. So the film itself

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S1: is co-written by Scorsese and Eric Roth. It's based on

229
00:10:36,830 --> 00:10:39,350
S1: the 2017 book, as I mentioned, by David Grann, and

230
00:10:39,350 --> 00:10:42,170
S1: it tells a true story about a series of murders

231
00:10:42,170 --> 00:10:45,319
S1: that were targeting members of the Osage Nation and Native

232
00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:50,689
S1: American community in Oklahoma in the 19 tens and 1920s,

233
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S1: and the Osage, at this point in history, are actually

234
00:10:52,790 --> 00:10:56,090
S1: some of the richest people on the planet because of

235
00:10:56,090 --> 00:11:00,050
S1: the discovery of oil on their land. But racist laws

236
00:11:00,050 --> 00:11:02,270
S1: in the US meant that they often had to rely

237
00:11:02,270 --> 00:11:07,189
S1: on white, quote unquote, guardians to access and spend their wealth.

238
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S1: So the story of the film revolves around the family

239
00:11:09,770 --> 00:11:13,220
S1: of Molly Burkhart, who is played by Lily Gladstone. They

240
00:11:13,220 --> 00:11:17,390
S1: slowly begin dying, some of them seemingly of natural causes,

241
00:11:17,390 --> 00:11:21,770
S1: some in much more violent murders. Molly's married to Leonardo

242
00:11:21,770 --> 00:11:25,370
S1: DiCaprio's character Ernst Burkhart, and his uncle, played by Robert

243
00:11:25,370 --> 00:11:28,880
S1: De Niro, is a widely respected, including amongst the Osage

244
00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:33,230
S1: people community leader in the town. The film shows us

245
00:11:33,230 --> 00:11:36,920
S1: these murders the way that they impact the Osage and

246
00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,859
S1: the attempts to solve them, culminating in the arrival of

247
00:11:39,860 --> 00:11:42,890
S1: the FBI represented in the film by Jesse Plemons. And

248
00:11:42,890 --> 00:11:46,310
S1: it's one of the FBI's first major investigations in their history.

249
00:11:46,460 --> 00:11:49,580
S1: There's a lot to talk about in this film, not

250
00:11:49,580 --> 00:11:53,270
S1: just because there's Thomas mentioned it's nearly 3.5 hours long,

251
00:11:53,270 --> 00:11:55,970
S1: and I think we will talk about that and how

252
00:11:55,970 --> 00:11:59,090
S1: we feel about it. But right at the top, I

253
00:11:59,090 --> 00:12:01,850
S1: wanted to say, I think this is a pretty impressive

254
00:12:01,850 --> 00:12:06,290
S1: and extraordinary piece of work, particularly from Scorsese himself, but

255
00:12:06,290 --> 00:12:09,830
S1: also from Leonardo DiCaprio and Lily Gladstone. I think their

256
00:12:09,830 --> 00:12:14,180
S1: performances are astonishing. In the lead up to the film's release.

257
00:12:14,179 --> 00:12:16,309
S1: You know, Scorsese, when he's doing the media rollout, doing

258
00:12:16,309 --> 00:12:19,010
S1: these big interviews, he said. One thing that stood out

259
00:12:19,010 --> 00:12:22,130
S1: to me said, this is his most important film yet.

260
00:12:22,130 --> 00:12:24,679
S1: And at the time I thought, well, that's just kind

261
00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:27,650
S1: of what directors say to build hype for films and

262
00:12:27,650 --> 00:12:31,130
S1: get everyone excited. But as I was watching the movie,

263
00:12:31,429 --> 00:12:33,380
S1: you start to sort of get a sense of everyone

264
00:12:33,380 --> 00:12:36,620
S1: involved in this really does believe the story that they're

265
00:12:36,620 --> 00:12:41,540
S1: telling is fundamental to, I guess, like the role of

266
00:12:41,540 --> 00:12:44,630
S1: film in terms of telling the truth about what happened

267
00:12:44,630 --> 00:12:47,810
S1: in America, as well as grappling with like, one of

268
00:12:47,809 --> 00:12:50,959
S1: the root causes of why America is the way that

269
00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:55,250
S1: it is now. I just found that to be like earlier,

270
00:12:55,250 --> 00:12:57,260
S1: I was cynical about who was saying, but I genuinely

271
00:12:57,260 --> 00:13:00,170
S1: think that. Mariscal says he thinks that this is maybe

272
00:13:00,170 --> 00:13:03,770
S1: the most incredible and most important thing he's ever committed

273
00:13:03,770 --> 00:13:06,410
S1: to film, and it really gets to the heart of

274
00:13:06,410 --> 00:13:09,770
S1: his understanding of America and race relations and capitalism. Which

275
00:13:09,770 --> 00:13:12,860
S1: of these themes I think he's been juggling for for

276
00:13:12,860 --> 00:13:16,130
S1: decades now. Thomas, what's your sort of top line reaction

277
00:13:16,130 --> 00:13:16,580
S1: to the film?

278
00:13:16,580 --> 00:13:20,210
S3: Yeah, I think it's definitely a film that he probably

279
00:13:20,210 --> 00:13:22,890
S3: couldn't have made at any other time in. His life.

280
00:13:22,890 --> 00:13:25,709
S3: Like the guy is 80 now, which is like old

281
00:13:25,710 --> 00:13:27,630
S3: to be, you know, one of the best directors in

282
00:13:27,630 --> 00:13:30,960
S3: the world. Like it's a, it's an industrious, probably really

283
00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:35,850
S3: exhausting job. But I think that that's important that he's

284
00:13:35,850 --> 00:13:37,650
S3: at that stage of life that he was like kind

285
00:13:37,650 --> 00:13:40,650
S3: of able to make this film now because I don't

286
00:13:40,650 --> 00:13:42,240
S3: know if he could have made it with the same

287
00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,300
S3: kind of like tenderness and consideration had he been like

288
00:13:45,300 --> 00:13:48,840
S3: 40 year old Martin Scorsese. I think you can just tell,

289
00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:50,670
S3: even though, you know, we will talk about the length,

290
00:13:50,670 --> 00:13:53,490
S3: you can tell how much this film meant to him,

291
00:13:53,490 --> 00:13:55,980
S3: and it's weird. It's got that like for a 3.5

292
00:13:55,980 --> 00:13:58,470
S3: hour film, the pacing is pretty impressive and it just

293
00:13:58,470 --> 00:14:01,020
S3: kind of like flows over you. Like, it's like the

294
00:14:01,020 --> 00:14:03,840
S3: scenes just like, bleed into one another. Yeah, I was

295
00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:04,709
S3: pretty blown away by it.

296
00:14:05,070 --> 00:14:09,119
S2: Yeah, I agree, even despite all the chewing and rustling

297
00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:13,020
S2: and that was going on next to me, I was

298
00:14:13,020 --> 00:14:15,810
S2: completely riveted by this film and even that could not

299
00:14:15,809 --> 00:14:19,170
S2: detract from it. I thought it was wonderful and it

300
00:14:19,170 --> 00:14:21,900
S2: didn't feel long at all. To me. It was sad.

301
00:14:21,900 --> 00:14:24,330
S2: It was funny, it was violent, it was meaningful. And

302
00:14:24,330 --> 00:14:27,570
S2: I know it's being billed as a Western, but it's

303
00:14:27,570 --> 00:14:29,820
S2: not really a Western. It's so much more than that.

304
00:14:29,820 --> 00:14:33,120
S2: It's it's part western, it's part police procedural and it's

305
00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,240
S2: part a domestic thriller. And at its heart, I found

306
00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:40,140
S2: was really that love story between Leonardo DiCaprio and Lily Gladstone,

307
00:14:40,140 --> 00:14:43,530
S2: Ernest and Molly. But I thought it lived up to

308
00:14:43,530 --> 00:14:44,730
S2: the hype and more.

309
00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:46,110
S3: It does feel like if you look at his body

310
00:14:46,110 --> 00:14:49,530
S3: of work, each like each era of Scorsese and what

311
00:14:49,530 --> 00:14:51,630
S3: he's kind of like, zeroed in or been like, fixated on,

312
00:14:51,630 --> 00:14:54,210
S3: it's like he's finally managed to cherry pick all of

313
00:14:54,210 --> 00:14:56,760
S3: that and, like, stitch it together into one story. You've

314
00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,010
S3: got like from like the, you know, the decay from

315
00:14:59,010 --> 00:15:01,740
S3: like mean streets, the like fixation on capitalism from The

316
00:15:01,740 --> 00:15:04,320
S3: Wolf of Wall Street, Gangs of New York and like

317
00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,720
S3: that kind of period. It's just like he's finally found

318
00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:10,020
S3: this story that brings together all of his obsessions perfectly

319
00:15:10,020 --> 00:15:12,810
S3: and like it just reflects everything back. And it also

320
00:15:12,810 --> 00:15:14,190
S3: feels like really timely and.

321
00:15:14,190 --> 00:15:16,770
S2: We should say, two of those obsessions. Robert De Niro,

322
00:15:17,010 --> 00:15:18,630
S2: who was in a lot of his earlier films, and

323
00:15:18,630 --> 00:15:21,750
S2: Leonardo DiCaprio, who's been in a lot of these latest films.

324
00:15:21,750 --> 00:15:23,760
S2: These are the kind of this is the first time

325
00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:25,920
S2: the three of them have all worked on a film

326
00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:31,859
S2: together Robert De Niro playing Leonardo DiCaprio's character's uncle. And

327
00:15:31,860 --> 00:15:34,229
S2: so that pairing two and the three of them working

328
00:15:34,230 --> 00:15:35,880
S2: on a film is pretty remarkable.

329
00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:37,800
S1: Yeah, I'm glad you brought up Gangs of New York, Thomas,

330
00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,020
S1: because that was one of the ones I rewatched yesterday

331
00:15:40,020 --> 00:15:42,390
S1: because I was thinking, all right, when's the last time

332
00:15:42,390 --> 00:15:44,430
S1: Scott says, you did a sort of period piece looking

333
00:15:44,430 --> 00:15:47,310
S1: at the origins of America. And it was that movie

334
00:15:47,310 --> 00:15:52,080
S1: back in, I think, 2002 with DiCaprio and Daniel Day-Lewis

335
00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,890
S1: in that movie is like kind of maligned. And it

336
00:15:55,890 --> 00:15:57,960
S1: was rumored to have been like chopped to bits by

337
00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,090
S1: Harvey Weinstein, who just didn't get what Marty was trying

338
00:16:00,090 --> 00:16:02,160
S1: to do. But when you go back and watch it,

339
00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:04,770
S1: you're like, he's trying to do something similar as he

340
00:16:04,770 --> 00:16:07,350
S1: was with this movie killers of the Flower Moon, in

341
00:16:07,350 --> 00:16:11,670
S1: terms of telling a story about the brutality of America

342
00:16:11,670 --> 00:16:15,750
S1: in the 1800s and talking about racism and talking about

343
00:16:15,750 --> 00:16:18,660
S1: American like nativism, which at that point was, you know,

344
00:16:18,660 --> 00:16:23,100
S1: anti Irish Catholic, anti-Black, anti-Chinese and how everything that we

345
00:16:23,100 --> 00:16:26,070
S1: live in today and it's from an American perspective, was

346
00:16:26,070 --> 00:16:31,680
S1: built on this violent like rapacious, aggressive toxicity for lack

347
00:16:31,890 --> 00:16:35,190
S1: of a better term. And it's interesting to see him

348
00:16:35,190 --> 00:16:38,910
S1: go back to that. Well, but this time focus on

349
00:16:39,510 --> 00:16:43,140
S1: Native Americans. And I fully agree with you that it

350
00:16:43,140 --> 00:16:45,840
S1: does feel like a perfect joining of all the dots,

351
00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,720
S1: bringing all these threads in together. But I wouldn't have

352
00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:50,490
S1: believed that, you know, like ten years ago if you

353
00:16:50,490 --> 00:16:54,120
S1: told me that Marty is going to do one of

354
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,190
S1: his most important and powerful works, and it's going to

355
00:16:56,190 --> 00:16:59,700
S1: be about Native Americans, I would have been like, really? Like,

356
00:16:59,700 --> 00:17:03,210
S1: is that something we want him to do? But I

357
00:17:03,210 --> 00:17:05,700
S1: think the source material is so great. And I think

358
00:17:05,700 --> 00:17:08,159
S1: one of the really interesting things to come out of

359
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,530
S1: the production of this movie is that apparently when he

360
00:17:10,530 --> 00:17:12,870
S1: went into it, it had much more of a focus

361
00:17:12,869 --> 00:17:15,600
S1: on the kind of true crime element, this idea of

362
00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:19,050
S1: where did the FBI come from? And Jesse Plemons character

363
00:17:19,050 --> 00:17:20,760
S1: was supposed to play a much bigger role. But after

364
00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,449
S1: spending time with elders in the Osage Nation and working

365
00:17:24,450 --> 00:17:28,109
S1: with Lily Gladstone, the movie becomes what we see the

366
00:17:28,109 --> 00:17:31,530
S1: end result, this story of what America did and continues

367
00:17:31,530 --> 00:17:34,710
S1: to do to its First Nations people, and how, you know,

368
00:17:34,710 --> 00:17:40,560
S1: the discovery of oil and the way that capitalists wanted

369
00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:44,760
S1: to exploit that and used Native Americans as collateral damage

370
00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,450
S1: in their pursuit of wealth and power, is so intrinsic

371
00:17:48,450 --> 00:17:51,660
S1: to why America is what it is now, and who

372
00:17:51,660 --> 00:17:55,020
S1: has power and who doesn't have power. That didn't feel

373
00:17:55,020 --> 00:17:57,209
S1: like it was necessarily going to be an obvious story

374
00:17:57,210 --> 00:17:59,340
S1: that Martin Scorsese he was going to tell. But I'm

375
00:17:59,340 --> 00:18:01,290
S1: glad that he did. But what do you guys think

376
00:18:01,290 --> 00:18:03,240
S1: about him approaching this kind of story?

377
00:18:03,390 --> 00:18:05,040
S2: Yeah, and I mean, to that point, like, I kind

378
00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,190
S2: of see William Hale, who is Robert De Niro's character,

379
00:18:08,190 --> 00:18:11,909
S2: the kind of money making so-called king of the Osage, like.

380
00:18:11,910 --> 00:18:14,580
S2: I mean, Jordan Belfort is from Wolf of Wall Street

381
00:18:14,580 --> 00:18:18,840
S2: is a direct kind of inheritor of what William Hale

382
00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,030
S2: set up. And I think across even though his films

383
00:18:21,030 --> 00:18:24,300
S2: are on the surface often. Very different. They're all about

384
00:18:24,300 --> 00:18:27,419
S2: kind of the corruption of capitalism and the decline of

385
00:18:27,420 --> 00:18:30,929
S2: American society because of that. But I thought the way

386
00:18:30,930 --> 00:18:33,990
S2: that they flipped the script, which they've talked about before,

387
00:18:33,990 --> 00:18:36,200
S2: I actually I love reading about this. How many like,

388
00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:39,810
S2: dinners Marty and Leonardo DiCaprio had discussing this film, like

389
00:18:39,810 --> 00:18:41,609
S2: how fun they were just popping over to each other's

390
00:18:41,609 --> 00:18:43,560
S2: house all the time, having a.

391
00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:45,480
S3: Chat about it, get the call up once.

392
00:18:45,570 --> 00:18:49,290
S2: Because Leo was originally meant to play Tom white, this

393
00:18:49,290 --> 00:18:52,709
S2: FBI agent who comes in to investigate that was going

394
00:18:52,710 --> 00:18:54,449
S2: to be his character. But when they flipped the switch,

395
00:18:54,450 --> 00:18:57,810
S2: he decided he would play earnest, this character who marries

396
00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,300
S2: a member of the Osage Nation and then is involved

397
00:19:00,300 --> 00:19:03,030
S2: with the kind of killings that happen. I think that

398
00:19:03,030 --> 00:19:05,640
S2: move was really great, because I feel like so much

399
00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:07,770
S2: of the power of this movie comes from seeing the

400
00:19:07,770 --> 00:19:11,970
S2: moments of the community, like the kind of the costuming

401
00:19:11,970 --> 00:19:15,840
S2: that they wear, the the rituals of the marriages and

402
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:20,490
S2: the weddings and the the funerals, all of those moments

403
00:19:20,490 --> 00:19:23,609
S2: of Osage community kind of intersect with this kind of

404
00:19:23,609 --> 00:19:26,850
S2: capitalist drive. I thought it was a really nice juxtaposition.

405
00:19:26,850 --> 00:19:29,400
S2: So you have these really big moments of violence, and

406
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,280
S2: then you have some of these smaller, quiet moments. So

407
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:33,750
S2: I think that worked really well.

408
00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,260
S3: Yeah, I agree, it definitely kind of had everything in it.

409
00:19:37,260 --> 00:19:39,719
S3: And then weirdly, and this was probably the most unexpected

410
00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:43,619
S3: thing is that like, you know, I think typically Scorseses

411
00:19:43,619 --> 00:19:46,050
S3: films do have some really like laugh out loud moments.

412
00:19:46,050 --> 00:19:50,220
S3: He's a funny guy, famously from Brooklyn, but there's actually

413
00:19:50,220 --> 00:19:54,510
S3: like some really funny moments in this film, like unexpectedly.

414
00:19:54,510 --> 00:19:56,340
S1: So slapstick moments as well.

415
00:19:56,350 --> 00:19:58,709
S3: Yeah, I know it's weird and like, it's almost jarring

416
00:19:58,710 --> 00:20:01,830
S3: because the film itself is obviously like very somber and

417
00:20:01,830 --> 00:20:04,350
S3: grim and shocking at times. But then there are these,

418
00:20:04,350 --> 00:20:07,320
S3: like very, very funny moments. And so I guess even

419
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:09,659
S3: Martin Scorsese and this is what he claims to be

420
00:20:09,660 --> 00:20:13,050
S3: one of his most important, like life's work and a

421
00:20:13,050 --> 00:20:15,659
S3: very sad tale can't help but be like, well, we've

422
00:20:15,660 --> 00:20:17,369
S3: got to make someone laugh somewhere along the line.

423
00:20:17,550 --> 00:20:21,030
S1: Yeah, I think that goes to this question of runtime,

424
00:20:21,030 --> 00:20:23,130
S1: which I reckon maybe is worth sort of like tackling here.

425
00:20:23,130 --> 00:20:27,210
S1: Before we talk about performances. I'm like more with you, Mel,

426
00:20:27,210 --> 00:20:30,449
S1: on this one. Then with Thomas, I think the the pacing,

427
00:20:30,450 --> 00:20:32,699
S1: both in terms of the writing in the script itself,

428
00:20:32,700 --> 00:20:36,120
S1: I think was pretty astonishing. And this film was edited

429
00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:40,830
S1: by Scorsese's long term editor, Thelma Schoonmaker, who I think

430
00:20:40,830 --> 00:20:44,070
S1: is edited everything he's done since Taxi Driver, A Raging Bull,

431
00:20:44,070 --> 00:20:48,900
S1: and it is edited so well and so grippingly. And

432
00:20:48,900 --> 00:20:51,450
S1: the way that, like we move between scenes, the way

433
00:20:51,450 --> 00:20:54,719
S1: that scenes have put together and assembled, you don't feel

434
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:56,850
S1: like you don't feel like this is a slog, even

435
00:20:56,850 --> 00:20:59,490
S1: though it feels long, like it's not like you don't

436
00:20:59,490 --> 00:21:02,280
S1: feel the length, but you don't really want it to end.

437
00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,790
S1: And there's not many moments where I think I'm like,

438
00:21:05,790 --> 00:21:07,770
S1: I could have done with like ten minutes less. There

439
00:21:07,770 --> 00:21:09,869
S1: are 20 minutes less there. But my view on this

440
00:21:09,869 --> 00:21:14,190
S1: stuff generally is Matt Scorsese, one of the world's greatest directors,

441
00:21:14,190 --> 00:21:17,340
S1: is offering you up another minute or another ten minutes

442
00:21:17,340 --> 00:21:22,440
S1: of footage that has been impeccably well written, impeccably acted.

443
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,129
S1: The production design is astonishing, the lighting is astonishing, the

444
00:21:26,130 --> 00:21:29,159
S1: directing is incredible, the editing is amazing. Why would you

445
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,830
S1: not just want to soak up every additional second of

446
00:21:31,859 --> 00:21:33,090
S1: that you could?

447
00:21:33,420 --> 00:21:36,480
S2: Yeah, I agree, and also so much of the length

448
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,090
S2: comes from the world building that is happening. Like so

449
00:21:39,090 --> 00:21:42,450
S2: much detail has gone into constructing the town of Fairfax

450
00:21:42,450 --> 00:21:45,240
S2: and the Osage Nation. Like when Leo first arrives at

451
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,570
S2: the station, there's quite a long scene where they show

452
00:21:48,570 --> 00:21:50,280
S2: the kind of town and give you the lay of

453
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,200
S2: the land, and everyone in that scene is doing their

454
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,109
S2: own individual things that speak to the kind of the

455
00:21:55,109 --> 00:21:57,119
S2: community that we're in. And I think he is a

456
00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:00,120
S2: master in how to like, say something without like whacking

457
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,250
S2: you over the head with it. You know, all these

458
00:22:02,250 --> 00:22:05,609
S2: small moments of character development that build up together to

459
00:22:05,609 --> 00:22:08,130
S2: paint a portrait like it's not an obvious in your

460
00:22:08,130 --> 00:22:11,340
S2: face narrative. It happens in quiet moments along the way.

461
00:22:11,340 --> 00:22:13,830
S2: And so I think that that is also why the

462
00:22:13,830 --> 00:22:16,830
S2: length is necessary in a way, because it builds up

463
00:22:16,830 --> 00:22:20,040
S2: to have a really powerful effect. Thomas, you're looking you're

464
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:21,000
S2: looking skeptical.

465
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,250
S3: Well, I think I mean, firstly, I think you can

466
00:22:23,250 --> 00:22:26,190
S3: still achieve those things without like blowing out and taking

467
00:22:26,190 --> 00:22:29,510
S3: up someone's like half a day. It's my opinion. But like,

468
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:31,179
S3: you know, you talk about one of my favorite, like,

469
00:22:31,230 --> 00:22:34,770
S3: Scorsese things is that when he does kind of the

470
00:22:34,770 --> 00:22:37,080
S3: zoom out and you get like, the main character is

471
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:39,510
S3: almost like an outsider, and then you catch all the

472
00:22:39,510 --> 00:22:41,669
S3: action that's happening. He does it in like gangs in

473
00:22:41,670 --> 00:22:43,109
S3: New York. He does it. There's like, you know, a

474
00:22:43,109 --> 00:22:45,540
S3: fight breaking out over here, someone getting drunk over there,

475
00:22:45,540 --> 00:22:47,580
S3: and then like, you know, Leo is walking off in

476
00:22:47,580 --> 00:22:50,400
S3: the distance or a taxi driver happens a lot to like,

477
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,380
S3: I don't think it's one or the other. And I

478
00:22:52,380 --> 00:22:56,070
S3: just speaking to people about this film before it's come out.

479
00:22:56,070 --> 00:22:58,830
S3: The first thing everyone asks is about the length. And

480
00:22:58,830 --> 00:23:00,750
S3: I think, you know, unfortunately, we are in a time

481
00:23:00,750 --> 00:23:03,479
S3: where people are conscious of movies getting longer and longer.

482
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,300
S3: You know, Oppenheimer was like, oh my God, it's three hours. Like,

483
00:23:05,310 --> 00:23:08,550
S3: this is another 30 minutes on that. I remember we

484
00:23:08,550 --> 00:23:10,740
S3: did a story a couple of months ago where our

485
00:23:10,740 --> 00:23:13,950
S3: colleague Gary Maddox and film writer spoke to Palace Cinemas,

486
00:23:13,950 --> 00:23:16,530
S3: who I think was their chief executive, like lobby Paramount,

487
00:23:16,530 --> 00:23:19,170
S3: to put an intermission in this film. Obviously that's never

488
00:23:19,170 --> 00:23:21,179
S3: going to happen and I don't necessarily know if I

489
00:23:21,180 --> 00:23:24,220
S3: agree with that either, but. And I probably will no

490
00:23:24,220 --> 00:23:27,659
S3: doubt live to regret this. Had school safety give me

491
00:23:27,660 --> 00:23:30,480
S3: a call before he released the film. I reckon I

492
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:31,800
S3: could have watched it and been like, yeah, I could

493
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,750
S3: probably shave like 15 minutes out of that movie.

494
00:23:33,750 --> 00:23:34,800
S1: 15 minutes.

495
00:23:35,930 --> 00:23:40,730
S3: Yeah. Wow. I'm just thinking, like, you know, I watched

496
00:23:40,730 --> 00:23:43,550
S3: Taxi Driver last night. That movie is, like, just shy

497
00:23:43,550 --> 00:23:45,500
S3: of two hours long. It's perfect.

498
00:23:45,530 --> 00:23:47,990
S2: I think you should use a film like this to

499
00:23:47,990 --> 00:23:51,139
S2: reclaim your ability to focus on something. For. For a

500
00:23:51,140 --> 00:23:54,590
S2: long time, I thought this was like being on a plane.

501
00:23:54,590 --> 00:23:57,260
S2: Like I was just totally gripped. And I think everyone

502
00:23:57,260 --> 00:23:58,760
S2: should go and see this in the cinemas because it

503
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:00,350
S2: is long. And I think if you watch it at home,

504
00:24:00,350 --> 00:24:03,410
S2: like you can't escape mobile phones beeping like, you know,

505
00:24:03,410 --> 00:24:07,460
S2: the dishwasher. Yeah. And so I think you should definitely

506
00:24:07,460 --> 00:24:09,020
S2: go and see this in the cinema and have that

507
00:24:09,020 --> 00:24:10,369
S2: blackout experience.

508
00:24:10,369 --> 00:24:12,560
S1: Yeah. I think probably what you're speaking to Thomas is

509
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,830
S1: like a broader fatigue we have of long films. And

510
00:24:15,830 --> 00:24:17,810
S1: there are a lot of films in the movies that

511
00:24:17,810 --> 00:24:19,580
S1: I think are probably too long. I mean, I've been

512
00:24:19,580 --> 00:24:22,730
S1: an advocate for the 90 minute kind of film for

513
00:24:22,730 --> 00:24:25,580
S1: a while, like when we get these, you know, dramas

514
00:24:25,580 --> 00:24:27,830
S1: or comedies that are being released in less than two hours,

515
00:24:27,830 --> 00:24:31,100
S1: I think that's great. But I think when someone is

516
00:24:31,100 --> 00:24:35,000
S1: delving into a topic as meaty and complex and wanting

517
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,190
S1: to do it with subtlety and nuance, like one of

518
00:24:37,190 --> 00:24:40,490
S1: the interesting things about this movie is that unlike so

519
00:24:40,490 --> 00:24:44,840
S1: many other Scorsese films, there is no, like, narrator exposition.

520
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,630
S1: Like so much of Goodfellas, and even Gangs of New York.

521
00:24:47,630 --> 00:24:50,630
S1: Is the character, like, telling you what is going on,

522
00:24:50,630 --> 00:24:53,960
S1: where he lets a lot be shown and not told

523
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,450
S1: in this film? I think the other thing for him

524
00:24:56,450 --> 00:25:00,230
S1: is post working with Harvey Weinstein, who, you know, was

525
00:25:00,230 --> 00:25:03,200
S1: chopping up and editing his movies. I think he's at

526
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,630
S1: a stage of his life, in his career where he's like,

527
00:25:05,630 --> 00:25:08,300
S1: I don't know how much longer I've got left. No

528
00:25:08,300 --> 00:25:10,639
S1: one's going to tell me what to do with my films.

529
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,880
S1: And so he goes to Netflix for The Irishman and

530
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:15,949
S1: he's like, I'll give you guys a big movie, but

531
00:25:15,950 --> 00:25:18,500
S1: you can't touch it. Like, I get final Cut. Netflix

532
00:25:18,500 --> 00:25:20,239
S1: is like, great. They're like, never do that again. So

533
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,760
S1: he's got to shop around and find another streamer. This

534
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,820
S1: time it's Apple TV+ and it's like, I'll give you

535
00:25:25,820 --> 00:25:27,860
S1: guys a movie, but you can't touch it. And I

536
00:25:27,859 --> 00:25:30,350
S1: don't know if he's going to run out of streaming platforms.

537
00:25:30,350 --> 00:25:31,790
S3: But I think I'm pretty sure he's going to Hulu

538
00:25:31,790 --> 00:25:33,350
S3: next with a lot.

539
00:25:33,350 --> 00:25:35,840
S1: Of ads in the middle, you know? Yeah, yeah. But

540
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,359
S1: even though I think, you know, it's a big ask

541
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,250
S1: from people, I think when we look back on it,

542
00:25:40,250 --> 00:25:44,240
S1: we will not regret that this guy assembled this team

543
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,129
S1: and delivered us something this epic.

544
00:25:46,130 --> 00:25:48,800
S3: No. And I think my like I think my concern

545
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:50,960
S3: with it is that like, I was happy to sit

546
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:52,430
S3: there and watch the movie, but I think it's more

547
00:25:52,430 --> 00:25:55,550
S3: like I'm almost doing it for the broader viewing public

548
00:25:55,550 --> 00:25:57,260
S3: who I know. Like, if you're not a big Scorsese,

549
00:25:57,740 --> 00:26:00,980
S3: you're like, which I think happened with The Irishman as well.

550
00:26:00,980 --> 00:26:03,770
S3: People were a bit like, nah, I don't know if

551
00:26:03,770 --> 00:26:05,210
S3: I'm going to sit through this. And like, I think

552
00:26:05,210 --> 00:26:06,560
S3: it might be the same thing again. And I think

553
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,870
S3: we are coming off the back of Oppenheimer, which was

554
00:26:08,869 --> 00:26:10,760
S3: a three hour epic, but then crushed it off the

555
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:12,980
S3: back of, I guess, like, I mean, obviously a great

556
00:26:12,980 --> 00:26:14,420
S3: film as well, but it was like it had the

557
00:26:14,420 --> 00:26:18,260
S3: hype of Barbie to kind of create an event. Like,

558
00:26:18,260 --> 00:26:21,310
S3: I think Oppenheimer will crush killers of the Flower Moon

559
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,240
S3: at the box office. And it's more just a shame,

560
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:24,620
S3: I think, is why I'm saying it, because it is

561
00:26:24,619 --> 00:26:26,750
S3: such a great film, but people will probably be turned

562
00:26:26,750 --> 00:26:29,270
S3: off and like, yeah, so you.

563
00:26:29,270 --> 00:26:31,369
S2: Think it should be 50 minutes shorter for the sake

564
00:26:31,369 --> 00:26:33,170
S2: of the public who can't handle.

565
00:26:33,170 --> 00:26:35,449
S3: I just, I think I also think I still reckon

566
00:26:35,450 --> 00:26:37,220
S3: you could shave some stuff out of that film. I

567
00:26:37,220 --> 00:26:37,459
S3: want to.

568
00:26:37,460 --> 00:26:39,889
S2: Reclaim long films and long books. I feel like everyone

569
00:26:39,890 --> 00:26:41,449
S2: just gives them an eye roll and says, oh, they

570
00:26:41,450 --> 00:26:44,359
S2: could have been edited shorter or like, oh, it's self-indulgent

571
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:45,830
S2: and it's just not true. Yeah, I.

572
00:26:45,830 --> 00:26:47,840
S3: Think, I think white women need to do more reclaiming this.

573
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,619
S1: Generation glued to their TikToks, just watching clip after clip.

574
00:26:51,619 --> 00:26:54,619
S1: You just want this to be, what, a 15 second like, little,

575
00:26:54,619 --> 00:26:58,280
S1: rapidly edited Matty J style TikTok video? Thomas.

576
00:26:59,150 --> 00:27:01,850
S3: Well, actually, funnily enough, I did see Scorsese on TikTok,

577
00:27:01,850 --> 00:27:04,190
S3: I think with his granddaughter recently. That's right, that's right.

578
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,260
S3: I was actually very impressed by that because I think

579
00:27:06,260 --> 00:27:09,350
S3: there's a perception of Scorsese. He's made comments before about

580
00:27:09,350 --> 00:27:11,419
S3: streamers and, you know, like franchise films. And there's a

581
00:27:11,420 --> 00:27:14,240
S3: perception of him that he's like shuns new technology, but

582
00:27:14,250 --> 00:27:16,490
S3: actually don't think that is the case at all. And

583
00:27:16,490 --> 00:27:18,140
S3: so I was very I was impressed to see him

584
00:27:18,140 --> 00:27:21,500
S3: having fun on TikTok with his granddaughter. And perhaps his

585
00:27:21,500 --> 00:27:23,900
S3: next Hulu film will be a tight knit. Yeah.

586
00:27:23,900 --> 00:27:25,970
S2: And actually in this film, I think he really discovered

587
00:27:25,970 --> 00:27:28,550
S2: the drone as well. There are a lot of drone

588
00:27:28,550 --> 00:27:30,949
S2: shots in this film, which are fantastic, but yeah, he

589
00:27:30,950 --> 00:27:32,150
S2: was really putting that to use.

590
00:27:32,150 --> 00:27:34,400
S3: But can we please talk about the performances? Because I

591
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,520
S3: have some things to say about about our long time

592
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,350
S3: friend of the pod, Bobby generic. I was going to

593
00:27:39,350 --> 00:27:39,770
S3: ask you.

594
00:27:39,770 --> 00:27:43,010
S1: Exactly that question next time. Is you the number one

595
00:27:43,010 --> 00:27:47,959
S1: De Niro guy? How do you think our fella matched

596
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:49,280
S1: up in his film?

597
00:27:49,940 --> 00:27:55,340
S3: Um. I think he was probably the weakest of the leads.

598
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,869
S3: Number one, I think he did a good job, but

599
00:27:58,869 --> 00:28:01,179
S3: I still feel like DeNiro is like in his phoning

600
00:28:01,180 --> 00:28:04,360
S3: it in era, like he, you know, this was not

601
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,910
S3: a gangster film, but he kind of played a gangster

602
00:28:06,910 --> 00:28:10,690
S3: and he knows how to do that. That being said,

603
00:28:10,690 --> 00:28:13,120
S3: he was very funny. He has some of the funniest moments,

604
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:18,970
S3: but I think unfortunately for Bobby, his co-stars were so great.

605
00:28:18,970 --> 00:28:22,810
S3: Like DiCaprio man. Like, I understand he only dates very

606
00:28:22,810 --> 00:28:24,670
S3: young women and people are upset about that, but he's

607
00:28:24,670 --> 00:28:27,430
S3: such a good actor. He is so good. Like, if

608
00:28:27,430 --> 00:28:29,859
S3: I was 25, I would want to spend my final

609
00:28:29,859 --> 00:28:32,470
S3: year with him. Anyway, he was amazing and Lily Gladstone

610
00:28:32,470 --> 00:28:35,380
S3: was great and those two together were so magnetic and

611
00:28:35,380 --> 00:28:38,410
S3: the way especially their story plays out, I think unfortunately

612
00:28:38,410 --> 00:28:41,140
S3: for DeNiro being kind of the other lead, he suffered

613
00:28:41,140 --> 00:28:45,580
S3: for that. But yeah, at least it's not like, you know,

614
00:28:45,580 --> 00:28:46,720
S3: Dirty Grandpa to.

615
00:28:47,500 --> 00:28:49,630
S2: Leonardo DiCaprio is going to get all the attention for

616
00:28:49,630 --> 00:28:51,760
S2: this film. But for me, the beating heart of this

617
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,000
S2: film was Molly Burkhart, who was played by Lily Gladstone,

618
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:59,290
S2: who plays Leonardo DiCaprio's character wife. In this film. She's

619
00:28:59,290 --> 00:29:01,990
S2: a member of the Osage Nation, and I just thought

620
00:29:01,990 --> 00:29:04,900
S2: she was sensational. Like what she could do with what

621
00:29:04,900 --> 00:29:07,900
S2: she had in the script was amazing. Like, she was

622
00:29:07,900 --> 00:29:12,520
S2: just this figure of stillness and kind of groundedness and

623
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:14,890
S2: was this kind of real held the film together? I

624
00:29:15,220 --> 00:29:18,370
S2: thought in comparison to all the action, the, the white

625
00:29:18,370 --> 00:29:21,670
S2: men's action and busyness, and she was just this figure

626
00:29:21,670 --> 00:29:24,220
S2: of solidarity through the whole thing.

627
00:29:24,340 --> 00:29:27,820
S1: Yeah. And the fact that so much of her role,

628
00:29:27,820 --> 00:29:31,030
S1: particularly for the second half of the movie, involves her

629
00:29:31,030 --> 00:29:33,670
S1: just kind of like being quite ill in bed is

630
00:29:33,670 --> 00:29:36,580
S1: a really hard thing to like, use that through which

631
00:29:36,580 --> 00:29:42,460
S1: to show emotion, show like history and culture and feeling

632
00:29:42,460 --> 00:29:44,560
S1: and love and complexity and all that sort of stuff.

633
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,500
S1: It's astonishing that she was able to do all that

634
00:29:47,500 --> 00:29:51,220
S1: with what the character goes through. But yeah, I mean, Leo,

635
00:29:51,370 --> 00:29:53,950
S1: I don't feel bad saying this. He's the best actor

636
00:29:53,950 --> 00:29:57,370
S1: of the last 30 years, really. Like, he is incredible.

637
00:29:57,370 --> 00:30:01,330
S1: And he not only is he incredible because of the

638
00:30:01,330 --> 00:30:04,060
S1: way that he can do that, kind of like angry

639
00:30:04,060 --> 00:30:06,250
S1: Leo yelling stuff, which he does in this movie and

640
00:30:06,250 --> 00:30:08,470
S1: doesn't Wolf of Wall Street. But this is not a

641
00:30:08,470 --> 00:30:11,440
S1: character he's played before. Like there's bits of this that

642
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,930
S1: you know, he's drawing on from other characters, but this

643
00:30:13,930 --> 00:30:18,190
S1: is a very particular, specific character based on a real

644
00:30:18,190 --> 00:30:24,280
S1: person who I think he plays with. Perhaps people will

645
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,400
S1: say a nuance and empathy and complexity that this character

646
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,550
S1: doesn't deserve. But I do think having read the book

647
00:30:30,550 --> 00:30:34,720
S1: and having read stuff about Ernst Burckhardt, this is not

648
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,450
S1: a black and white story of like, good versus evil.

649
00:30:37,450 --> 00:30:43,420
S1: And he shows what happens and I think conveys probably

650
00:30:43,420 --> 00:30:46,930
S1: the internal turmoil his character felt throughout it. And you

651
00:30:46,930 --> 00:30:49,270
S1: also write, Thomas, that even if De Niro really went

652
00:30:49,270 --> 00:30:51,610
S1: for it at this part of his career, in his life,

653
00:30:51,610 --> 00:30:53,290
S1: I think he was always going to come off like

654
00:30:53,290 --> 00:30:56,620
S1: second or third best. But I didn't get that level

655
00:30:56,620 --> 00:31:01,510
S1: of complexity from his character. It wasn't really clear how

656
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,660
S1: that character, William King Hale, really fit in. You know,

657
00:31:04,690 --> 00:31:06,040
S1: if you read the book, you kind of understand it

658
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,469
S1: from the movie. It was like, so hang on, like,

659
00:31:08,470 --> 00:31:10,740
S1: what was he trying to do and where was it going?

660
00:31:10,750 --> 00:31:12,100
S1: Maybe that's an issue with the writing, but I think

661
00:31:12,100 --> 00:31:14,770
S1: it was mainly the nearest performance. Just I don't think

662
00:31:14,770 --> 00:31:16,540
S1: was was up to scratch in this one.

663
00:31:16,930 --> 00:31:19,000
S3: Yeah, it's interesting as well I think like so obviously,

664
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,910
S3: you know, you've got Lily Gladstone, Leo DiCaprio and Robert

665
00:31:21,910 --> 00:31:24,160
S3: De Niro as the three leads. But I did think

666
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,580
S3: I've always been a huge supporter of Jesse Plemons. I

667
00:31:27,580 --> 00:31:30,820
S3: think he's an incredible actor. One of those guys like

668
00:31:30,820 --> 00:31:34,210
S3: I feel about him the same way I felt pre

669
00:31:34,210 --> 00:31:37,959
S3: cancellation about Casey Affleck. I think he's like very complex.

670
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,990
S3: He's he's like so subtle. Everything Jesse Plemons is in,

671
00:31:40,990 --> 00:31:43,930
S3: even when it's like a minor role, he's always just

672
00:31:43,930 --> 00:31:46,060
S3: like attention suck. Like you can't help but watch him.

673
00:31:46,060 --> 00:31:49,030
S3: And I do wonder if there was almost like a.

674
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,980
S3: Passing of the baton. I could see Jesse Plemons becoming

675
00:31:53,980 --> 00:31:57,390
S3: like the next Leonardo DiCaprio. Obviously, like DiCaprio is a ten.

676
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,720
S3: Plemons is like a five. But I could see shots that.

677
00:32:00,730 --> 00:32:02,110
S1: I got Kirsten Dunst over here.

678
00:32:02,110 --> 00:32:04,780
S3: Yeah, I know, well, I mean, like, let's be honest,

679
00:32:04,780 --> 00:32:06,490
S3: if he was working at, like, a Caltech so they

680
00:32:06,490 --> 00:32:09,340
S3: wouldn't be together, but I think.

681
00:32:10,510 --> 00:32:11,830
S1: Great oil reference.

682
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,370
S3: Yeah. Yeah, I did wonder. I feel like I could

683
00:32:15,370 --> 00:32:17,260
S3: see a world in which, you know, 20 years from now,

684
00:32:17,260 --> 00:32:19,420
S3: we're talking about Jesse Plemons career in the same way

685
00:32:19,420 --> 00:32:22,060
S3: we talk about DiCaprio's, and he's got the same breadth

686
00:32:22,060 --> 00:32:25,930
S3: and scope of incredible films in his back catalog. But yeah,

687
00:32:25,930 --> 00:32:27,940
S3: I was really impressed by him. He didn't have as

688
00:32:27,940 --> 00:32:30,220
S3: much to do, and he kind of comes in as

689
00:32:30,220 --> 00:32:32,660
S3: a FBI agent in the latter half of the movie

690
00:32:32,660 --> 00:32:35,530
S3: and the latter five hours of the film, and he's

691
00:32:35,530 --> 00:32:37,450
S3: he's really great. So I thought he's worth mentioning.

692
00:32:37,450 --> 00:32:39,430
S2: Yeah, I agree with you. He's really good in it.

693
00:32:39,430 --> 00:32:42,490
S2: But I think his role compared to Leo's is quite straight.

694
00:32:42,490 --> 00:32:44,590
S2: He's morality is very clear to us. He wants to

695
00:32:44,590 --> 00:32:48,670
S2: put the baddies behind bars. Whereas Leo the ambiguity of

696
00:32:48,670 --> 00:32:52,330
S2: Leo's role is so incredible. I just it's where you

697
00:32:52,330 --> 00:32:55,270
S2: kind of see good acting, like it's where you can

698
00:32:55,270 --> 00:32:57,760
S2: pull that off, kind of being both good and evil

699
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,700
S2: at the same time. That's when you really know someone's

700
00:33:00,700 --> 00:33:03,070
S2: crushing their job. And I will say he's very much

701
00:33:03,070 --> 00:33:05,230
S2: not heartthrob Leo in this is he. He's like the

702
00:33:05,230 --> 00:33:08,110
S2: most unattractive. He's been really bad teeth. He's very sweaty.

703
00:33:08,110 --> 00:33:11,290
S2: He's got this, like, protruding lower lip thing going on

704
00:33:11,290 --> 00:33:14,680
S2: that looks like he's like, kind of chewing on tobacco. Yeah.

705
00:33:22,310 --> 00:33:25,520
S1: The general ambiguity in this movie, which is a story

706
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:29,180
S1: about very bad crimes happening to very innocent people, is

707
00:33:29,180 --> 00:33:32,150
S1: really fascinating to me, and I think it is really

708
00:33:32,150 --> 00:33:34,969
S1: interesting that there are moments where perhaps in an earlier

709
00:33:34,970 --> 00:33:38,000
S1: part of Scorsese's career, or if another director was doing this,

710
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,430
S1: when there are reveals of who the bad guys, it

711
00:33:40,430 --> 00:33:43,370
S1: would be very, very clear and very, very obvious. But

712
00:33:43,370 --> 00:33:45,830
S1: one of my favorite scenes in this movie, it's not

713
00:33:45,830 --> 00:33:47,990
S1: a spoiler. I'll keep it really vague, but you get

714
00:33:47,990 --> 00:33:51,560
S1: this moment where you see who the real kind of

715
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,200
S1: villains are, like who was pulling the strings here and

716
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,260
S1: who is really benefiting from these events that are going on.

717
00:33:57,530 --> 00:34:00,469
S1: And it happens in like 10s like you just don't

718
00:34:00,470 --> 00:34:03,050
S1: even really get a chance to realize before you're then

719
00:34:03,050 --> 00:34:05,630
S1: swept up with the narrative of the film. And I

720
00:34:05,630 --> 00:34:08,750
S1: think that is really smart as well. And I mean, again,

721
00:34:08,750 --> 00:34:10,580
S1: this is a bit tricky to talk without spoiling, but

722
00:34:10,580 --> 00:34:13,220
S1: we'll do our best. The very, very end of the movie,

723
00:34:13,219 --> 00:34:17,060
S1: where Scorsese sort of lifts the lid on what story

724
00:34:17,060 --> 00:34:20,120
S1: he's trying to tell. And I think delivering a quite

725
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:24,170
S1: powerful commentary on the nature of storytelling itself, as well

726
00:34:24,170 --> 00:34:28,700
S1: as wrapping up this bigger piece about what America has

727
00:34:28,700 --> 00:34:33,290
S1: done to First Nations people I like was a bit breathless,

728
00:34:33,290 --> 00:34:34,790
S1: like at the very end of this movie.

729
00:34:34,910 --> 00:34:38,629
S2: Yeah, I feel that ending was unexpected but essential, and

730
00:34:38,630 --> 00:34:41,990
S2: it really tied the whole thing together impeccably. Yeah.

731
00:34:41,989 --> 00:34:44,060
S3: And again, that's why I think, like so much of it,

732
00:34:44,060 --> 00:34:47,839
S3: it's hard for me to remove from, you know, the

733
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,319
S3: point and time of Scorseses life that he is in.

734
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:53,840
S3: He is like an elder statesman of cinema. He, you know,

735
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,770
S3: he's in his 80s now. He has spoken a lot about,

736
00:34:57,770 --> 00:34:59,570
S3: you know, he's a reflective guy. Obviously, he's spoken a

737
00:34:59,570 --> 00:35:01,910
S3: lot about being at the age that he's at where,

738
00:35:01,910 --> 00:35:03,980
S3: you know, all of his loved ones have passed away

739
00:35:03,980 --> 00:35:05,840
S3: and he's he's kind of coming into the twilight of

740
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:07,669
S3: not only his career but his life. And I feel

741
00:35:07,670 --> 00:35:11,450
S3: like those things are all, like, really inform the end

742
00:35:11,450 --> 00:35:13,730
S3: of this film and the story he chose to tell

743
00:35:13,730 --> 00:35:15,830
S3: in the way in which he chose to, to tell it. Yeah,

744
00:35:15,830 --> 00:35:18,650
S3: it was it was an incredible ending. And yeah, again,

745
00:35:19,310 --> 00:35:21,950
S3: walking out of something after 3.5 hours, I remember like

746
00:35:21,950 --> 00:35:23,690
S3: it was funny. Mel and I walked out and, you know,

747
00:35:23,690 --> 00:35:26,420
S3: we we spoke to we watched a screener of this

748
00:35:26,420 --> 00:35:28,879
S3: film put on by the company, and there were two

749
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,070
S3: really nice ladies that worked there, but we just walked

750
00:35:31,070 --> 00:35:33,240
S3: out and they were like, hey, what did you think?

751
00:35:33,260 --> 00:35:35,560
S3: Tell me your thoughts. What did you think about the length?

752
00:35:35,570 --> 00:35:38,360
S3: Did you love it? And like, it's a weird film

753
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,520
S3: to be, like kind of ambushed after, like your.

754
00:35:40,820 --> 00:35:42,050
S1: Levels are a bit out of sync.

755
00:35:42,050 --> 00:35:44,239
S3: Yeah, yeah. And we were like, we're both. I would

756
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:45,440
S3: actually love to watch a tape back. We were both

757
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,350
S3: kind of like, yeah, I mean, so good. Like like

758
00:35:48,810 --> 00:35:50,150
S3: they need to like process, you know?

759
00:35:50,180 --> 00:35:52,700
S2: But also someone had like a clipboard and we were like,

760
00:35:52,700 --> 00:35:54,439
S2: is this going straight back to Marty?

761
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,230
S1: Like, so this happens right? When I do these screenings,

762
00:35:57,230 --> 00:35:59,030
S1: we do them, we sometimes get asked and some we

763
00:35:59,030 --> 00:36:01,250
S1: get asked to email our thoughts. I have no idea

764
00:36:01,250 --> 00:36:03,230
S1: what happens to those. Like where do they go? Is

765
00:36:03,230 --> 00:36:06,590
S1: Marty reading okay in Sydney? Thomas Mel said this in Melbourne.

766
00:36:06,590 --> 00:36:08,930
S1: They said this okay, next movie cut out 50 minutes

767
00:36:08,930 --> 00:36:09,680
S1: like let's go.

768
00:36:09,980 --> 00:36:11,780
S3: Yeah. Because when she started taking notes I was like,

769
00:36:11,780 --> 00:36:12,380
S3: oh God.

770
00:36:12,380 --> 00:36:14,060
S2: But you're also like, I got to run because I

771
00:36:14,060 --> 00:36:15,529
S2: owe a dude a sausage roll.

772
00:36:15,530 --> 00:36:16,550
S3: And I was like, look, there's a bit of hate

773
00:36:16,550 --> 00:36:18,710
S3: on me. I got away with a $7 crime earlier,

774
00:36:18,830 --> 00:36:19,400
S3: I think.

775
00:36:19,550 --> 00:36:21,319
S1: I think the other thing I just wanted to mention

776
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,150
S1: before we maybe do a bit of a zoom out

777
00:36:23,150 --> 00:36:26,750
S1: and talk about Marty more generally is to your point, Thomas,

778
00:36:26,750 --> 00:36:29,750
S1: about how to watch this movie without thinking about where

779
00:36:29,750 --> 00:36:33,890
S1: Scorsese is at in his life and career. Similarly, you know,

780
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,069
S1: in Australia, hard to watch this movie and not think

781
00:36:37,070 --> 00:36:40,400
S1: about the parallels. And it was obviously no like for

782
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,520
S1: like in so many different ways. But the parallels of

783
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:47,390
S1: a story about the theft of land and wealth and

784
00:36:47,390 --> 00:36:52,280
S1: the murder of First Nations people. Yeah, particularly in the

785
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,740
S1: week and the weeks in which we're watching it. And

786
00:36:54,739 --> 00:36:58,250
S1: I think there is a resonance there for Australian audiences, too.

787
00:36:58,250 --> 00:37:01,490
S1: I thought that was worth mentioning, but I'm really interested

788
00:37:01,489 --> 00:37:04,610
S1: in where you guys think this film fits in the

789
00:37:04,610 --> 00:37:10,370
S1: kind of ranking of Scorsese's filmography. Closer to the top,

790
00:37:10,370 --> 00:37:12,350
S1: somewhere in the middle, maybe towards the bottom, and I

791
00:37:12,350 --> 00:37:14,900
S1: feel like he's got so many great movies, it wouldn't

792
00:37:14,900 --> 00:37:18,290
S1: even be offensive to, like, put it in the bottom half.

793
00:37:18,290 --> 00:37:19,820
S1: But I'm really keen to know what you think.

794
00:37:20,030 --> 00:37:22,910
S3: I would probably put it like it's a great film

795
00:37:22,910 --> 00:37:25,910
S3: and I think we've all kind of made that clear.

796
00:37:25,910 --> 00:37:29,870
S3: I think what I personally enjoyed the most about Scorsese

797
00:37:29,900 --> 00:37:33,799
S3: films is probably not what kills the Flower Moon is

798
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:35,600
S3: rich in, and so for me, I would probably put

799
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,810
S3: it in the middle. I love his films when they

800
00:37:38,810 --> 00:37:44,120
S3: are like this kind of like sneering, exciting, funny, kind

801
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,750
S3: of like fucked up look at these underbelly of the world.

802
00:37:47,750 --> 00:37:49,399
S3: And so I think that's what I enjoy the most

803
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,100
S3: about his films. And this is a very different speed.

804
00:37:52,250 --> 00:37:53,480
S3: So yeah, I'd put it in the middle.

805
00:37:53,690 --> 00:37:55,400
S2: I'm going, I reckon. Top seven.

806
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:56,870
S3: Top seven. Yeah, I'd.

807
00:37:56,870 --> 00:37:57,560
S2: Put it up there.

808
00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:59,380
S1: I was going to go top five, but then I

809
00:37:59,420 --> 00:38:01,520
S1: started trying to do my top five. It's like maybe

810
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:06,860
S1: The Departed, The Wolf of Wall Street, Goodfellas, Taxi Driver,

811
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:09,740
S1: like it's probably the next one for me, are sort

812
00:38:09,739 --> 00:38:11,420
S1: of in that, in that level.

813
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:13,580
S2: Yeah, I feel the same. I'd also put Raging Bull

814
00:38:13,580 --> 00:38:16,730
S2: on there and Silence, which was a film a few

815
00:38:16,730 --> 00:38:18,950
S2: years ago, which I feel like got almost zero attention

816
00:38:18,950 --> 00:38:21,470
S2: and got nominated for one Academy Award, and that was it. But.

817
00:38:21,750 --> 00:38:23,469
S2: It's the most incredible film.

818
00:38:23,489 --> 00:38:24,930
S3: Yeah, that one had a weird that was the one

819
00:38:24,930 --> 00:38:27,110
S3: they made in Malaysia and someone died on set.

820
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,580
S2: They had Adam Driver and Andrew Garfield in it, playing

821
00:38:29,580 --> 00:38:34,140
S2: these Jesuit priests going to find their the father of

822
00:38:34,140 --> 00:38:37,170
S2: the order, who has apparently renounced his Christianity. So they

823
00:38:37,170 --> 00:38:39,000
S2: go on this bid, but it's just incredible. But anyway,

824
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:40,830
S2: I would put that up there, but yeah, I reckon

825
00:38:40,830 --> 00:38:44,069
S2: this stands stands muster and top seven for sure.

826
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,129
S1: Thomas, you said Goodfellas was your first kind of entree

827
00:38:47,130 --> 00:38:49,500
S1: to the world of Scorsese. Is it your favorite or

828
00:38:49,500 --> 00:38:50,430
S1: do you have another favorite?

829
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,480
S3: Uh, I think Goodfellas is probably my favorite, but it's

830
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,670
S3: touch and go between that and The Wolf of Wall Street.

831
00:38:56,670 --> 00:38:59,700
S3: I think, like for anyone of our generation, you know,

832
00:38:59,700 --> 00:39:01,410
S3: we're all kind of in our 30s like The Wolf

833
00:39:01,410 --> 00:39:04,080
S3: of Wall Street. It's a different experience when you enjoy

834
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:05,880
S3: a film for the first time, like as an adult.

835
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,190
S3: And The Wolf of Wall Street was kind of our

836
00:39:08,310 --> 00:39:12,720
S3: big Scorsese film for our generation. And, you know, again,

837
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:14,130
S3: I think it's a world that a lot of us are,

838
00:39:14,130 --> 00:39:16,980
S3: like more connected to than perhaps stuff like Main Streets

839
00:39:17,010 --> 00:39:19,230
S3: or Taxi Driver or Raging Bull or Cape Fear or whatever.

840
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:20,160
S1: Speak for yourself.

841
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,890
S3: I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The main streets of

842
00:39:22,890 --> 00:39:25,800
S3: the Shire where I grew up, but I just thought

843
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,620
S3: it kind of, again, it was very, very funny. It

844
00:39:28,620 --> 00:39:32,850
S3: had like DiCaprio and Jonah Hill, this, like, absolute interrogation

845
00:39:32,850 --> 00:39:36,300
S3: of capitalism. But in this most like, kind of like,

846
00:39:36,300 --> 00:39:39,810
S3: I guess in quotations like fun way they're taking Quaaludes,

847
00:39:39,810 --> 00:39:41,460
S3: they're doing a bunch of coke. You've got this incredible

848
00:39:41,460 --> 00:39:44,310
S3: scene with Matthew McConaughey. Like it was a celebration of excess.

849
00:39:44,310 --> 00:39:45,960
S3: And if you wanted to love it as a fucking

850
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,319
S3: hilarious party movie that has Margot Robbie and DiCaprio, you could.

851
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,090
S3: But if you wanted to actually enjoy it for what

852
00:39:51,090 --> 00:39:52,770
S3: it was saying, you could do that too. And I

853
00:39:52,770 --> 00:39:55,650
S3: just think The Wolf of Wall Street was like Scorsese

854
00:39:55,739 --> 00:39:58,380
S3: really being able to prove that he can tap into

855
00:39:58,380 --> 00:40:01,800
S3: a new generation of audience and also like, teach them to.

856
00:40:01,950 --> 00:40:05,100
S2: I think about the scene where Leo is in the

857
00:40:05,100 --> 00:40:08,520
S2: office and he is yelling, I'm not going anywhere, and

858
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,240
S2: he thumbs his chest and I do that oh.

859
00:40:12,900 --> 00:40:21,279
S6: Oh, oh. Oh oh.

860
00:40:25,310 --> 00:40:31,430
UU: La la la la la. La la la la.

861
00:40:36,020 --> 00:40:38,090
S2: I think about that at least once a day when

862
00:40:38,090 --> 00:40:39,620
S2: we go to kind of conference.

863
00:40:39,620 --> 00:40:40,820
S7: And I would say.

864
00:40:41,270 --> 00:40:43,879
S2: I look at when you say when you say a

865
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,430
S2: hustling and bustling along, I think of men in white

866
00:40:46,430 --> 00:40:49,580
S2: suits going, oh, it's just a remark. People who don't.

867
00:40:49,580 --> 00:40:53,990
S1: Understand how newsrooms work. Mel is comparing Leonardo DiCaprio playing

868
00:40:53,989 --> 00:40:57,860
S1: Jordan Belfort like this convicted fraudster who was going up

869
00:40:57,860 --> 00:41:02,210
S1: his like sales team to basically rip off regular people

870
00:41:02,210 --> 00:41:05,630
S1: and Wall Street. She's comparing that to when a bunch of, like,

871
00:41:05,630 --> 00:41:07,700
S1: quiet editors go into a room and talk about what

872
00:41:07,700 --> 00:41:09,169
S1: is happening in the news that day.

873
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:11,610
S7: I mean, I mean.

874
00:41:11,630 --> 00:41:12,410
S3: You have a chest bump.

875
00:41:13,310 --> 00:41:13,880
S7: No, but.

876
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:14,400
S2: I feel that.

877
00:41:14,450 --> 00:41:16,140
S7: I feel the movement.

878
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:18,080
S2: Look, I've been here since 1976.

879
00:41:18,650 --> 00:41:20,510
S7: You've seen a lot of chest.

880
00:41:20,510 --> 00:41:21,500
S1: Pumping in newsrooms.

881
00:41:21,500 --> 00:41:24,049
S3: That's also probably that's got to be one of Scorseses first, like,

882
00:41:24,050 --> 00:41:26,720
S3: memed moments, because that's become a whole minute. That's got

883
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:28,700
S3: a second life on the internet. That scene, that and

884
00:41:28,700 --> 00:41:31,400
S3: also the McConaughey scene. But the Leo one being like,

885
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,800
S3: I'm not fucking leaving like that. It does the rounds.

886
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,620
S3: So yeah, but I think Goodfellas, as I said at

887
00:41:36,620 --> 00:41:38,210
S3: the top of this pod, like it really is for me,

888
00:41:38,210 --> 00:41:42,529
S3: the quintessential Scorsese film. It's obviously set for a while.

889
00:41:42,530 --> 00:41:44,330
S3: He was kind of like the mob guy, even though

890
00:41:44,330 --> 00:41:46,279
S3: that's probably not a fair kind of assumption of him.

891
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,279
S3: But yeah, I just think that Goodfellas, not only is

892
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,220
S3: it probably my favorite Scorsese film, it contains my single

893
00:41:52,219 --> 00:41:55,460
S3: favorite Scorsese one shot oseman I know you know what

894
00:41:55,460 --> 00:41:59,629
S3: I'm talking about. The Copacabana take incredible, incredible. When Ray

895
00:41:59,630 --> 00:42:04,940
S3: Liotta basically introduces his girlfriend to the mob life, he

896
00:42:04,940 --> 00:42:07,160
S3: takes her through the belly of this place and they

897
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:10,370
S3: go through the kitchen and everyone knows him. His table's

898
00:42:10,370 --> 00:42:12,770
S3: getting ready. It's all one take, and it's just like

899
00:42:12,980 --> 00:42:16,160
S3: you and the character are both seduced by this world.

900
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,470
S3: By the time they sit down, you're just like, fucking

901
00:42:18,469 --> 00:42:20,540
S3: sign me up to the mob. Let me take my omerta.

902
00:42:20,570 --> 00:42:21,560
S3: Like I'll do it tonight.

903
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,560
S1: It is not an exaggeration to say that everything I've

904
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,290
S1: been doing in my life is to somehow get to

905
00:42:27,290 --> 00:42:30,919
S1: that level of success that I May 1st day walk

906
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,740
S1: into a similar kind of club and be treated in

907
00:42:33,739 --> 00:42:34,550
S1: a similar manner.

908
00:42:34,940 --> 00:42:37,430
S8: The funny thing is, that is just absolutely true.

909
00:42:38,450 --> 00:42:40,550
S1: Yeah, anyone who knows anything about me knows that I

910
00:42:40,550 --> 00:42:44,450
S1: don't make sense now. It all makes sense now. And yeah,

911
00:42:44,450 --> 00:42:46,820
S1: you mentioned his girlfriend, played by the wonderful Lorraine Bracco,

912
00:42:46,820 --> 00:42:52,850
S1: who rocks up as the psychiatrist in Sopranos. Karen, why

913
00:42:52,850 --> 00:42:55,549
S1: did you do that? Karen one of the best.

914
00:42:55,610 --> 00:42:59,120
S3: So just Joe Pesci, man. Like, oh God, it's all

915
00:42:59,120 --> 00:42:59,600
S3: so good.

916
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:02,480
S1: Mel. Favorite Scorsese. Can you choose?

917
00:43:02,780 --> 00:43:05,089
S2: I feel like I love the gangster films.

918
00:43:05,090 --> 00:43:07,520
S7: Oh, here we go. But I really loved The Quiet Pursuit.

919
00:43:07,850 --> 00:43:10,670
S1: Kundan, you're into the life and times of the Dalai Lama.

920
00:43:10,670 --> 00:43:13,400
S7: Oh, I well.

921
00:43:13,610 --> 00:43:15,320
S2: I mean, that is kind of. That does fit with

922
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:17,870
S2: silence quite nicely. I do like the gangster films and

923
00:43:17,870 --> 00:43:20,150
S2: I think they're great fun to watch, but I think

924
00:43:20,150 --> 00:43:22,910
S2: I do like, I still love the 70s and 80s.

925
00:43:22,910 --> 00:43:26,089
S2: I like the tragedy of those films. I like the

926
00:43:26,090 --> 00:43:31,100
S2: man descending into absolute insanity. King of comedy has to

927
00:43:31,100 --> 00:43:34,220
S2: be up there. I think that's such a fantastic film.

928
00:43:34,219 --> 00:43:36,470
S2: And then I would say from the more recent bunch,

929
00:43:36,469 --> 00:43:38,510
S2: silence for me is that is the pick.

930
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:42,440
S1: My one is The Departed. I thought long and hard

931
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:46,270
S1: about this and. It's a tough one between Like That

932
00:43:46,270 --> 00:43:48,219
S1: and Wolf of Wall Street and Goodfellas. For me, I

933
00:43:48,219 --> 00:43:52,690
S1: do think Leo's performance in The Departed is even better

934
00:43:52,690 --> 00:43:55,570
S1: than his performance in Wolf of Wall Street. I think

935
00:43:55,570 --> 00:43:58,900
S1: you know the character that he goes up against, played

936
00:43:58,900 --> 00:44:02,290
S1: by Jack Nicholson. I like I like that character. I

937
00:44:02,290 --> 00:44:04,509
S1: feel like Jack Nicholson, not quite to the same level

938
00:44:04,510 --> 00:44:05,890
S1: as De Niro and Killers of the Flower Moon, but

939
00:44:05,890 --> 00:44:07,989
S1: I just don't think it's peak Jack Nicholson. But there

940
00:44:07,989 --> 00:44:10,930
S1: is something about him playing this kind of representation of

941
00:44:10,930 --> 00:44:14,860
S1: Satan and corrupting everyone around him, and then eventually, like,

942
00:44:14,860 --> 00:44:17,620
S1: you know, just going up in this flaming heap and

943
00:44:17,620 --> 00:44:22,120
S1: what that story has to say about American police, American

944
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:27,009
S1: life like racial division, as well as having these astonishing

945
00:44:27,010 --> 00:44:29,710
S1: scenes that come out of nowhere that like, again, you know,

946
00:44:29,710 --> 00:44:32,020
S1: that that time is spoilers for The Departed. This movie

947
00:44:32,020 --> 00:44:34,630
S1: came out like, what, 17 years ago? But where you

948
00:44:34,630 --> 00:44:37,810
S1: think Leo has basically, like, won the movie and then

949
00:44:37,810 --> 00:44:39,759
S1: he just gets shot in the head in an elevator

950
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,040
S1: and you're like, what the fuck did I just watch?

951
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:45,189
S1: I've never really seen something like that. And also my

952
00:44:45,190 --> 00:44:48,040
S1: favorite thing about this film is where else in a

953
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:51,160
S1: movie are you like 40 minutes in and then the

954
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,400
S1: opening titles come up with that Dropkick Murphys song. It's like,

955
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:55,989
S1: the movie's just starting now. What the hell did I

956
00:44:55,989 --> 00:44:57,879
S1: just watch for the first 40 minutes?

957
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:01,210
S3: The departed is honestly such an amazing film. Like that

958
00:45:01,210 --> 00:45:05,200
S3: would be probably my second after Goodfellas. Like, yeah, I mean,

959
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,620
S3: probably worth noting the only time he has won Best

960
00:45:08,620 --> 00:45:11,890
S3: Director for a film. He's been nominated I think nine times.

961
00:45:12,670 --> 00:45:15,310
S3: Fucking crazy that he hasn't won like some of the.

962
00:45:15,310 --> 00:45:15,969
S1: Films that's.

963
00:45:15,969 --> 00:45:19,420
S3: Crazy won for Best Director, not The Departed isn't an

964
00:45:19,420 --> 00:45:21,850
S3: amazing film, but it's probably not the best of his

965
00:45:21,850 --> 00:45:23,170
S3: films in terms of like, direction.

966
00:45:23,170 --> 00:45:24,260
S7: But yeah, I mean was.

967
00:45:24,310 --> 00:45:25,780
S2: Just picked it as the best of his.

968
00:45:25,780 --> 00:45:26,200
S7: Films.

969
00:45:27,850 --> 00:45:29,900
S3: I mean, that's Altman's take. I would have shaved 50

970
00:45:29,900 --> 00:45:32,470
S3: minutes of it. No, but like, it's it's obviously a

971
00:45:32,469 --> 00:45:35,260
S3: great film, but I, I think what's also interesting about

972
00:45:35,260 --> 00:45:37,840
S3: it is like in this interview, which I'll talk about shortly,

973
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,840
S3: but there's a big GQ piece, like a profile doing

974
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:44,110
S3: the rounds of recent profile. And he talked about how like,

975
00:45:44,110 --> 00:45:46,810
S3: you know, he they did testing on that film. Audiences

976
00:45:46,810 --> 00:45:49,420
S3: were like, yeah, this is amazing. And the studios were like,

977
00:45:49,420 --> 00:45:53,739
S3: we can't have everyone die because we want to turn

978
00:45:53,739 --> 00:45:56,170
S3: it into a franchise, so someone's got to live. And

979
00:45:56,170 --> 00:45:57,970
S3: then basically that for him was again, like, I think

980
00:45:57,969 --> 00:46:00,190
S3: he's had a series of days over recent years, like,

981
00:46:00,190 --> 00:46:02,800
S3: I guess like realizations that the industry was moving away

982
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:04,540
S3: from him or he was moving away from it, and

983
00:46:04,540 --> 00:46:06,400
S3: he was just like, well, I can't be a part

984
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,400
S3: of that world. And, you know, he's obviously had very

985
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:14,020
S3: public thoughts about the franchise, you know, ization of film

986
00:46:14,020 --> 00:46:15,879
S3: right now. But yeah, I just thought it was interesting that,

987
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:17,920
S3: you know, he made such a distinct decision, which I

988
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:19,870
S3: think is such a powerful part of the film in

989
00:46:19,870 --> 00:46:22,900
S3: that it ends in total chaos. But the studios were like, yeah,

990
00:46:22,900 --> 00:46:25,180
S3: but can't someone live? So maybe we can make a sequel, which.

991
00:46:25,180 --> 00:46:26,919
S2: I guess is why he then started to move well

992
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:29,470
S2: away from studios as well, later on in his career,

993
00:46:29,469 --> 00:46:32,200
S2: to kind of independently sourcing the funding for them.

994
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:35,230
S1: Before we go to the Impress Your Friend segment, which

995
00:46:35,230 --> 00:46:37,540
S1: Thomas sort of has alluded to, his one sort of

996
00:46:37,540 --> 00:46:39,820
S1: relates to what we've been talking about. I thought it's interesting,

997
00:46:39,820 --> 00:46:44,080
S1: this difference between kind of earlier generation Scorsese, Taxi Driver,

998
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:47,200
S1: Raging Bull versus Thomas, and I kind of focusing on

999
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:51,430
S1: some of the more recent blockbuster types and like, I

1000
00:46:51,430 --> 00:46:54,459
S1: like Texture and Raging Bull. I mean, I just don't

1001
00:46:54,460 --> 00:46:58,509
S1: like them. They are astonishing films, but they're not like

1002
00:46:58,510 --> 00:47:00,790
S1: when I think about what I love, part of it

1003
00:47:00,790 --> 00:47:03,340
S1: has to do with like, the rewatch ability or how

1004
00:47:03,340 --> 00:47:04,969
S1: often I'd want to sit down and enjoy it. You know,

1005
00:47:04,989 --> 00:47:07,480
S1: if I'm it's a Saturday afternoon, it's raining outside and

1006
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:08,920
S1: I just want to, like, sit back on the couch

1007
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:12,009
S1: and enjoy myself. Raging bull is like a lot to

1008
00:47:12,010 --> 00:47:14,800
S1: ask from me. Whereas like Wolf of Wall Street or

1009
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:16,870
S1: The Departed, I'm like, this will be fun, this will

1010
00:47:16,870 --> 00:47:20,290
S1: be interesting, this will be sort of satisfying. Did you

1011
00:47:20,290 --> 00:47:23,290
S1: rewatch those ones, Mel, that you like much or is

1012
00:47:23,290 --> 00:47:24,399
S1: there something to what I'm saying?

1013
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:27,100
S2: No, there's definitely something to what you're saying. I don't

1014
00:47:27,100 --> 00:47:30,100
S2: go back and watch them frequently, and I probably only

1015
00:47:30,100 --> 00:47:32,500
S2: see them like a handful of times all up. But

1016
00:47:32,500 --> 00:47:34,029
S2: I also think it does play into I think those

1017
00:47:34,030 --> 00:47:36,580
S2: films were very formative in helping me kind of see

1018
00:47:36,580 --> 00:47:39,940
S2: the potential of filmmaking and falling in love with film,

1019
00:47:40,510 --> 00:47:42,340
S2: so I think I do hold a particularly special spot

1020
00:47:42,340 --> 00:47:44,410
S2: for them, and I just, I don't think that there's

1021
00:47:44,410 --> 00:47:47,020
S2: anything really comparable to them that is released these days.

1022
00:47:47,020 --> 00:47:49,600
S2: I don't think they could be made quite like that today.

1023
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:51,370
S2: But then that makes me think, where do you think

1024
00:47:51,370 --> 00:47:53,560
S2: killers of the Flower Moon falls into it? I will

1025
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:55,810
S2: definitely go and rewatch this again in the cinemas like

1026
00:47:55,810 --> 00:47:57,190
S2: I want to. I want to see it all. I

1027
00:47:57,190 --> 00:47:59,080
S2: think I probably missed so much of it that seeing

1028
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:00,850
S2: it a second time, when you kind of know the

1029
00:48:00,850 --> 00:48:03,850
S2: contours of it, you'll see something different. But like, do

1030
00:48:03,850 --> 00:48:05,980
S2: you think this is a film you'd watch at home

1031
00:48:05,980 --> 00:48:07,029
S2: again on a Saturday night?

1032
00:48:07,060 --> 00:48:08,680
S1: No, no, and I think I think that's a really

1033
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:10,330
S1: good point. I think I'll watch it again in the movies.

1034
00:48:10,330 --> 00:48:12,040
S1: I'm quite keen to check it out on Imax. I

1035
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,190
S1: think that'll be quite spectacular. But yeah, this is probably

1036
00:48:15,190 --> 00:48:17,560
S1: not super rewatchable. One for me.

1037
00:48:17,739 --> 00:48:19,660
S3: No way. Like I would definitely like I'm probably going

1038
00:48:19,660 --> 00:48:21,460
S3: to go and watch The Departed this week like having

1039
00:48:21,460 --> 00:48:23,649
S3: now spoken about it. And I've seen that like ten

1040
00:48:23,650 --> 00:48:26,620
S3: times and even like something like probably a weirder and

1041
00:48:26,620 --> 00:48:29,739
S3: what Scorsese considers his last studio film, like Shutter Island,

1042
00:48:29,739 --> 00:48:31,870
S3: that's still pretty heavy, but it's like it's a big

1043
00:48:31,870 --> 00:48:33,430
S3: studio film. I've seen it like a lot of times,

1044
00:48:33,430 --> 00:48:35,229
S3: and I can happily put that on. But like, I

1045
00:48:35,230 --> 00:48:37,450
S3: don't know if I would rush to, like, rewatch killers

1046
00:48:37,450 --> 00:48:39,370
S3: of the Flower Moon. So I think, yeah, I think

1047
00:48:39,370 --> 00:48:41,980
S3: especially there is something to be said for like the

1048
00:48:41,980 --> 00:48:45,450
S3: contemporary films. You watch them and they're of your time.

1049
00:48:45,450 --> 00:48:47,339
S3: And so you can kind of have a bigger connection

1050
00:48:47,340 --> 00:48:50,189
S3: to them. Whereas like everything that when I first watched

1051
00:48:50,219 --> 00:48:52,590
S3: Taxi Driver or first watch Main Streets, I was going

1052
00:48:52,590 --> 00:48:55,200
S3: back to kind of like revisit it. You know? So yeah.

1053
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:57,089
S3: But I think killers of the Flower Moon, like, I'll

1054
00:48:57,090 --> 00:48:58,770
S3: probably see it once more to watch it with my wife,

1055
00:48:58,770 --> 00:49:00,720
S3: but yeah, I can't imagine it's going to be one

1056
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:02,819
S3: that I'm like every year, like, better go and check out.

1057
00:49:02,820 --> 00:49:04,170
S3: Like this horrific story.

1058
00:49:04,170 --> 00:49:05,580
S1: I keep I keep trying to find a way to

1059
00:49:05,580 --> 00:49:07,620
S1: wrap up the Scorsese discussion and move on to the

1060
00:49:07,620 --> 00:49:09,930
S1: other segment, but then you guys keep bringing up points

1061
00:49:09,930 --> 00:49:11,580
S1: that I'm like, we have to kind of acknowledge that.

1062
00:49:11,580 --> 00:49:13,980
S1: And Mel, when you're talking about like when you watch

1063
00:49:13,980 --> 00:49:17,130
S1: those 70s Scorsese films like, wow, I didn't know that

1064
00:49:17,130 --> 00:49:19,950
S1: cinema could do this. I mean, like Main Streets, the

1065
00:49:19,950 --> 00:49:23,250
S1: opening credits opening on My Baby by the Ronettes like

1066
00:49:23,250 --> 00:49:26,160
S1: that had never happened before. That was the first time,

1067
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:28,950
S1: like a vintage pop song like that had been used

1068
00:49:28,950 --> 00:49:30,750
S1: in a movie in that way. And then the way

1069
00:49:30,750 --> 00:49:36,120
S1: that Scorsese used music like the the Layla outro in Goodfellas,

1070
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:38,430
S1: that just all the music in Goodfellas, all the music

1071
00:49:38,430 --> 00:49:39,330
S1: and Casino.

1072
00:49:39,330 --> 00:49:39,990
S3: King and the needle.

1073
00:49:39,989 --> 00:49:43,560
S1: Drop. Absolutely. And you can't separate him from, like, the

1074
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:46,590
S1: DNA of what modern filmmaking is now. And the fact

1075
00:49:46,590 --> 00:49:48,149
S1: that he did so much of that for the first

1076
00:49:48,150 --> 00:49:52,200
S1: time five decades ago is crazy, and that he's still

1077
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:55,170
S1: making movies. Like what a Guy, long may he live.

1078
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:58,469
S3: I have a final question for you on Scorsese. If

1079
00:49:58,469 --> 00:50:01,860
S3: you like looking at the collective careers of his two

1080
00:50:01,860 --> 00:50:05,219
S3: greatest movies as being De Niro and DiCaprio, who have

1081
00:50:05,219 --> 00:50:07,080
S3: now come together in The Killers of the Flower Moon

1082
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:09,600
S3: over the course of both of their respective careers. Who

1083
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,480
S3: do you think was the stronger actor for Scorsese?

1084
00:50:14,250 --> 00:50:19,529
S1: I am going to say Leonardo DiCaprio. I do think that, like,

1085
00:50:19,530 --> 00:50:22,319
S1: I think De Niro, De Niro had like a great

1086
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:24,060
S1: run in Godfather two was one of the best movies

1087
00:50:24,060 --> 00:50:26,490
S1: ever made. It's not Scorsese movie, obviously, but I just

1088
00:50:26,489 --> 00:50:29,819
S1: feel like when Marty had figured out what he could

1089
00:50:29,820 --> 00:50:32,819
S1: do really, really well was around the same time that

1090
00:50:32,820 --> 00:50:34,950
S1: Leo had figured out what he could do really, really

1091
00:50:34,950 --> 00:50:37,800
S1: well and decided that he wanted to be this kind

1092
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:40,710
S1: of serious kind of a character actor and leave the

1093
00:50:40,710 --> 00:50:43,950
S1: sort of I was the hot hunk from the 90s behind.

1094
00:50:43,950 --> 00:50:47,069
S1: And those two came together at a really vital moment.

1095
00:50:47,070 --> 00:50:49,830
S1: But that is a difficult question, and I'm not sure

1096
00:50:49,830 --> 00:50:51,170
S1: there is a clear cut answer.

1097
00:50:51,180 --> 00:50:54,270
S2: Yeah, I, I agree with you was I'd probably go,

1098
00:50:54,270 --> 00:50:57,509
S2: Leo if I was forced to forced to pick. And

1099
00:50:57,510 --> 00:50:59,130
S2: I was reading a story in the New Yorker where

1100
00:50:59,130 --> 00:51:01,830
S2: they were interviewing Scorsese, and he was talking about how

1101
00:51:01,830 --> 00:51:04,410
S2: with Leo, he thinks Leo could be fine in a

1102
00:51:04,410 --> 00:51:06,960
S2: silent film. And I think that really hits the head

1103
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:09,840
S2: about what Leo can do. Well, he can say so

1104
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:13,439
S2: much and capture so much ambiguity without saying anything at all.

1105
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:16,860
S2: Whereas I think some of like De Niro's roles in

1106
00:51:16,860 --> 00:51:20,790
S2: the earlier Scorsese is they are much bigger, louder roles,

1107
00:51:21,060 --> 00:51:23,130
S2: whereas Leo, I think, is the master of the kind

1108
00:51:23,130 --> 00:51:24,270
S2: of silent role.

1109
00:51:24,660 --> 00:51:26,100
S1: Do you have an answer to your own question?

1110
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:29,970
S3: I do, and this may shock you. I actually I

1111
00:51:29,969 --> 00:51:32,220
S3: actually am going to go De Niro because I think

1112
00:51:32,219 --> 00:51:36,000
S3: while DiCaprio may have appeared in like more of Scorsese's

1113
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:39,540
S3: better films, I think De Niro has created more iconic

1114
00:51:39,750 --> 00:51:44,400
S3: like characters for cinema. In those films. Then DiCaprio has like,

1115
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:48,959
S3: I mean, Main Streets, Taxi Driver, Raging Bull, Goodfellas, Cape

1116
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:54,030
S3: Fear and Casino. Like. That's pretty impressive. Whereas I don't

1117
00:51:54,030 --> 00:51:56,969
S3: know if the like the characters that will live on

1118
00:51:56,969 --> 00:51:59,910
S3: in people's minds that DiCaprio has created with Scorsese are

1119
00:51:59,910 --> 00:52:00,440
S3: as powerful.

1120
00:52:00,460 --> 00:52:02,989
S1: My my counter, that is, you listed about 6 or

1121
00:52:02,989 --> 00:52:06,390
S1: 7 films, but only like two characters exist in those movies.

1122
00:52:06,390 --> 00:52:08,370
S1: You know, there's like Travis Bickle and then there's like

1123
00:52:08,370 --> 00:52:10,110
S1: gangster De Niro.

1124
00:52:10,590 --> 00:52:12,660
S3: Yeah, but and he's a boxer in boxing.

1125
00:52:12,660 --> 00:52:13,440
S7: Yeah. That's true.

1126
00:52:14,070 --> 00:52:16,319
S3: He's very scary in Cape Fear. Look, they're both really

1127
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:17,310
S3: good actors, and I think they're going to have a

1128
00:52:17,310 --> 00:52:17,879
S3: huge future.

1129
00:52:18,420 --> 00:52:19,620
S2: And pass that on to Marty.

1130
00:52:20,670 --> 00:52:24,690
S1: All right. Thomas, you mentioned that your impress Your friends

1131
00:52:24,690 --> 00:52:28,380
S1: recommendation was related to this conversation. Talk us through it.

1132
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:31,939
S3: Yeah, this is a slightly different one for me this week,

1133
00:52:32,180 --> 00:52:34,339
S3: but sometimes it is actually really cool to impress your

1134
00:52:34,340 --> 00:52:37,220
S3: friends by sending them a really long read because it

1135
00:52:37,219 --> 00:52:40,940
S3: tells them, eh? I read really long things and b

1136
00:52:40,940 --> 00:52:44,780
S3: I still read things. So I think if this is

1137
00:52:44,780 --> 00:52:48,290
S3: themed with today's part, of course I think my Impress

1138
00:52:48,290 --> 00:52:50,420
S3: Your Friends for this week, it's a must read from

1139
00:52:50,420 --> 00:52:52,910
S3: GQ over in the States. It's a long read with

1140
00:52:52,910 --> 00:52:56,270
S3: Martin Scorsese. The interview was done by Zach Barron. He's

1141
00:52:56,270 --> 00:52:59,840
S3: one of the senior writers at GQ in America, actually

1142
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:02,420
S3: married to Amanda Dobbin, who is a podcaster on The

1143
00:53:02,420 --> 00:53:05,330
S3: Ringer over in the States. And this is kind of

1144
00:53:05,330 --> 00:53:07,819
S3: like the, I guess, probably the biggest interview Scorsese has

1145
00:53:07,820 --> 00:53:10,549
S3: done around the release of the film. Obviously with the

1146
00:53:10,550 --> 00:53:14,120
S3: Actor's Strike, the director's kind of the point guy, but

1147
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:16,820
S3: it's actually like I sent it to both of you

1148
00:53:16,820 --> 00:53:19,160
S3: in the lead up to this podcast. It's actually a

1149
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:23,690
S3: really beautiful, kind of like poignant, almost sad read, but

1150
00:53:23,690 --> 00:53:24,530
S3: also quite sad.

1151
00:53:24,530 --> 00:53:25,370
S1: It's quite sad.

1152
00:53:25,370 --> 00:53:27,120
S3: Yeah. Like, you know, we've kind of spoken about it

1153
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:28,910
S3: a bit on this part, but Scorsese is 81 and

1154
00:53:28,910 --> 00:53:31,430
S3: he's really like reflecting on his life. And he talks

1155
00:53:31,430 --> 00:53:33,740
S3: a lot about being at the stage where he's having

1156
00:53:33,739 --> 00:53:36,080
S3: to let things go. At one point, Zach, the writer,

1157
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:38,839
S3: and Scorsese sitting in his kind of study and he's

1158
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:41,780
S3: looking at his kind of collection of things, you know,

1159
00:53:41,780 --> 00:53:44,210
S3: books and film scripts and pictures of his family, and

1160
00:53:44,210 --> 00:53:46,070
S3: he talks about, you know, now is the time to

1161
00:53:46,070 --> 00:53:49,070
S3: let go. And so you've kind of got this incredible

1162
00:53:49,070 --> 00:53:51,920
S3: thinker and artistic mind who is really reflecting on his

1163
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:55,610
S3: own career, but also his own life. Getting older, getting sicker,

1164
00:53:55,610 --> 00:53:58,069
S3: what it means to still be creative, what it means

1165
00:53:58,070 --> 00:53:59,870
S3: to still live in the world. He talks a lot

1166
00:53:59,870 --> 00:54:03,080
S3: about his dwindling circle of friends. I just thought it

1167
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:05,240
S3: was a really beautiful read and an insight into a

1168
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:07,100
S3: man who we don't really get to learn a lot

1169
00:54:07,100 --> 00:54:10,160
S3: about outside of his films. And also on top of that,

1170
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:12,140
S3: it has what you kind of want from any long read,

1171
00:54:12,140 --> 00:54:14,690
S3: which is some great kind of like, I guess, juicy bits.

1172
00:54:14,690 --> 00:54:17,629
S3: He talks about, you know, having to have fights with

1173
00:54:17,630 --> 00:54:20,660
S3: Harvey Weinstein to save Gangs of New York, or he

1174
00:54:20,660 --> 00:54:23,780
S3: talks about the departed and what he did and how

1175
00:54:23,780 --> 00:54:26,480
S3: he went about casting that. So, yeah, it's both really

1176
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:29,390
S3: interesting from a kind of celebrity point of view, but

1177
00:54:29,390 --> 00:54:32,270
S3: also just a really a really important read with a

1178
00:54:32,270 --> 00:54:34,790
S3: director who's coming to the end of an incredible career

1179
00:54:34,790 --> 00:54:36,439
S3: that we all respect.

1180
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:39,380
S2: Yeah, it's pretty poignant, isn't it? You can really get

1181
00:54:39,380 --> 00:54:42,620
S2: the sense of a man like wrestling with his own mortality.

1182
00:54:42,620 --> 00:54:44,359
S2: And there is this quote in there where he talks

1183
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:47,470
S2: about how like, well, nothing matters. Like what doesn't matter,

1184
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:50,690
S2: nothing matters anymore. Which is kind of a pretty shocking

1185
00:54:50,690 --> 00:54:54,739
S2: thing for someone to realize after such a life in

1186
00:54:54,890 --> 00:54:57,770
S2: the creative field to be like, none of it really matters.

1187
00:54:57,830 --> 00:55:00,590
S2: And I think that is obviously doing a big disservice

1188
00:55:00,590 --> 00:55:02,360
S2: to what he has put into the world. But I

1189
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:04,280
S2: did think that part was quite interesting.

1190
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:05,810
S3: But it's so funny as well because I watched Taxi

1191
00:55:05,810 --> 00:55:08,030
S3: Driver yesterday. At one point, De Niro's character goes to

1192
00:55:08,030 --> 00:55:09,920
S3: speak to a, he's like the taxi driver that's been

1193
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:12,350
S3: there for like 20 years. And it's when De Niro's character,

1194
00:55:12,350 --> 00:55:14,150
S3: like Travis Bickle, has had a bit of a weird crossroads.

1195
00:55:14,150 --> 00:55:16,729
S3: He's feeling like sad. And wiseguy says to him, well,

1196
00:55:16,730 --> 00:55:19,400
S3: ultimately we're all fucked anyway. And I'm like, God, that

1197
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:22,700
S3: is just like Scorsese really has been holding on to that. Like,

1198
00:55:22,700 --> 00:55:26,060
S3: that really is his worldview because, you know, he's he's

1199
00:55:26,060 --> 00:55:28,700
S3: both been interrogating like the crumbling of society as we

1200
00:55:28,700 --> 00:55:30,710
S3: know it. But also ultimately, it doesn't matter because we're

1201
00:55:30,710 --> 00:55:31,160
S3: all fucked.

1202
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:33,439
S2: Yeah, you're right. I guess that nihilism kind of flows

1203
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:35,570
S2: through his films because there aren't a lot of redeeming

1204
00:55:35,570 --> 00:55:37,400
S2: qualities for his characters.

1205
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:39,980
S3: But yes, a very, very impressive read. Really well written

1206
00:55:39,980 --> 00:55:41,600
S3: and definitely worth checking out. Yeah.

1207
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:43,279
S1: Nice one. Good to have some reads. A few people

1208
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:45,080
S1: have suggested that it actually like, you know, send some

1209
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:50,030
S1: great long read Vanity Fair New Yorker recommendations folks. My

1210
00:55:50,030 --> 00:55:53,029
S1: one this week is like it's I don't know if

1211
00:55:53,030 --> 00:55:55,279
S1: it really counts as an impress your friends because the

1212
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:58,950
S1: TV show is currently number two on Netflix's most watch list.

1213
00:55:58,950 --> 00:56:01,550
S1: So this isn't really like a secret. Like, oh yeah,

1214
00:56:01,550 --> 00:56:03,680
S1: tell everyone you heard about this cool thing on this podcast,

1215
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:06,260
S1: but I'm really enjoying it and I thought it was

1216
00:56:06,260 --> 00:56:09,350
S1: worth mentioning anyway, just in case people have missed it.

1217
00:56:09,350 --> 00:56:12,469
S1: It is full of the House of usher. This is

1218
00:56:12,469 --> 00:56:16,880
S1: an adaptation of an Edgar Allan Poe short story. It's

1219
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:19,910
S1: adapted by Mike Flanagan, who did the kind of haunting

1220
00:56:19,910 --> 00:56:23,120
S1: of Hill House Haunting of Bly Manor horror TV series

1221
00:56:23,350 --> 00:56:26,840
S1: for Netflix, but it's like a modern retelling, and it

1222
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:29,719
S1: takes this idea of this what was literally like a

1223
00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:32,300
S1: crumbling old house in the Edgar Allan Poe story and

1224
00:56:32,300 --> 00:56:36,380
S1: turns it into a story of a big pharmaceutical company

1225
00:56:36,380 --> 00:56:40,730
S1: which is responsible for the real opioid crisis in America,

1226
00:56:40,969 --> 00:56:44,930
S1: and the children who stand to kind of inherit this

1227
00:56:44,930 --> 00:56:49,040
S1: start getting killed like one by one. And it's got

1228
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:52,129
S1: elements of like horror and gothic. It's also quite funny,

1229
00:56:52,130 --> 00:56:55,610
S1: quite interesting in terms of what it's trying to say about, again,

1230
00:56:55,610 --> 00:56:58,730
S1: like capitalism and, and big pharma. But also I think

1231
00:56:58,730 --> 00:57:01,580
S1: like has a lot to say about celebrity and the

1232
00:57:01,580 --> 00:57:05,989
S1: contemporary kind of discussion around what is culture, what is

1233
00:57:05,989 --> 00:57:09,080
S1: pop culture, what is celebrity? There's a really great monologue

1234
00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:12,200
S1: by Bruce Greenwood, who's who's one of the main guys

1235
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:17,600
S1: in it about lemons and like what lemons? I kind

1236
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:18,680
S1: of don't want to say because I want to ruin it,

1237
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:21,260
S1: but like, it's worth watching. He just uses lemons, which

1238
00:57:21,260 --> 00:57:24,290
S1: are just a fucking fruit, really, to talk about how

1239
00:57:24,290 --> 00:57:27,770
S1: marketing and selling stuff and pop culture and celebrity all

1240
00:57:27,770 --> 00:57:30,230
S1: kind of work. It's. Really worth it. Also got Carla

1241
00:57:30,230 --> 00:57:33,590
S1: Gugino and Mary McDonnell, who are two all time great

1242
00:57:33,590 --> 00:57:37,370
S1: actresses about halfway through. Really like it. Worth watching.

1243
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:40,790
S3: Yeah, and also some really good jump scares like I

1244
00:57:40,790 --> 00:57:43,640
S3: it's it's like proper scary. I'm about three episodes in

1245
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:45,200
S3: and yeah, a few times I've been like.

1246
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:47,780
S2: Yeah, I've only watched the first episode and it was

1247
00:57:47,780 --> 00:57:49,490
S2: very more horror than I thought it would be, but

1248
00:57:49,490 --> 00:57:52,100
S2: then Oz was saying that it's worth persevering because it

1249
00:57:52,100 --> 00:57:53,090
S2: kind of just gets better.

1250
00:57:53,090 --> 00:57:55,760
S1: Yeah, I think the first episode is like very horror heavy,

1251
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:57,440
S1: and then the rest of it eases up on that,

1252
00:57:57,440 --> 00:57:59,690
S1: but then it has the right amount of like tension

1253
00:57:59,690 --> 00:58:02,720
S1: and jumpscares. As Tom said, Mel, what have you got

1254
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:03,230
S1: for us?

1255
00:58:03,230 --> 00:58:06,830
S2: I've got a surprise, surprise. I've got a book. This

1256
00:58:06,830 --> 00:58:09,800
S2: one is an Australian debut author Madeleine Gray, and the

1257
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:12,980
S2: book's called green Dot. I reckon it's a perfect read

1258
00:58:12,980 --> 00:58:16,880
S2: for summer. It's very funny, it's very witty, but it's

1259
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:19,070
S2: also got a lot of heart. It's about a young

1260
00:58:19,070 --> 00:58:22,430
S2: woman in her 20s who's completed heaps of university, doesn't

1261
00:58:22,430 --> 00:58:24,740
S2: really know what to do with her life. Goes to

1262
00:58:24,740 --> 00:58:28,340
S2: work in the newsroom as a comment moderator, where she

1263
00:58:28,340 --> 00:58:32,660
S2: embarks on an affair with an older married colleague. It

1264
00:58:32,660 --> 00:58:34,640
S2: is a coming of age, but it also is very

1265
00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:37,100
S2: much of this age. It kind of puts its finger

1266
00:58:37,100 --> 00:58:40,790
S2: on the pulse of like the ennui of this generation,

1267
00:58:40,790 --> 00:58:42,920
S2: you know, who aren't really sure what to do and

1268
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:46,310
S2: what they're working for anymore. It's very funny and also

1269
00:58:46,310 --> 00:58:50,090
S2: very readable. And it's also had this kind of dream

1270
00:58:50,090 --> 00:58:53,420
S2: run to publication. Madeleine gray sent it to an agent

1271
00:58:53,420 --> 00:58:55,100
S2: who took it to the London Book Fair. And then,

1272
00:58:55,100 --> 00:58:57,320
S2: almost in the spate of a few days, they had

1273
00:58:57,320 --> 00:58:59,870
S2: got four book deals for different countries, and they'd sold

1274
00:58:59,870 --> 00:59:03,110
S2: the screen and television rights. So I think it's going

1275
00:59:03,110 --> 00:59:05,570
S2: to I think it's going to be around for a while.

1276
00:59:05,570 --> 00:59:05,990
S7: That's like the.

1277
00:59:05,990 --> 00:59:09,650
S3: Jackpot you want, like that's crazy. Yeah. And green Dot

1278
00:59:09,650 --> 00:59:12,650
S3: like refers to like the flashing online symbol that we

1279
00:59:12,650 --> 00:59:13,850
S3: all are so obsessed with.

1280
00:59:13,850 --> 00:59:17,150
S2: It refers to the like essentially the version of slack

1281
00:59:17,150 --> 00:59:19,550
S2: in The Office. And I mean, listeners have probably heard

1282
00:59:19,550 --> 00:59:22,610
S2: slack on this podcast because you always have yours on.

1283
00:59:23,180 --> 00:59:24,950
S3: I'm just I mean, I'm a busy guy.

1284
00:59:24,950 --> 00:59:25,400
S7: Yeah.

1285
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:28,370
S2: It's how she kind of communicates with the man she

1286
00:59:28,370 --> 00:59:30,470
S2: has an affair with. But I guess more symbolically, it's

1287
00:59:30,470 --> 00:59:34,100
S2: kind of reflecting on the strange nature of intimacy and

1288
00:59:34,100 --> 00:59:35,420
S2: relationships today.

1289
00:59:35,420 --> 00:59:37,850
S3: And yeah, I think it's also worth noting, again for

1290
00:59:37,850 --> 00:59:40,640
S3: the listeners, that this one is doing the rounds on

1291
00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:43,760
S3: chick lit Insta. So everyone has been it's been like

1292
00:59:44,330 --> 00:59:47,690
S3: covers everywhere, all the like. Bookstagram is that you should

1293
00:59:47,690 --> 00:59:50,570
S3: be following loving it. So yes, it has come across

1294
00:59:50,570 --> 00:59:51,110
S3: my radar.

1295
00:59:51,110 --> 00:59:52,640
S1: Yeah, I was going to say. Thomas, thank you for

1296
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:55,490
S1: yet again reporting from the front lines of chick lit Insta.

1297
00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:58,250
S3: Yeah, well, I mean, it's worth people need to know

1298
00:59:58,310 --> 00:59:59,090
S3: that they do. They do.

1299
00:59:59,090 --> 01:00:01,460
S1: That's you're a journalist in the space of culture, and

1300
01:00:01,460 --> 01:00:03,140
S1: that is the kind of work we expect from.

1301
01:00:03,140 --> 01:00:06,350
S3: Yes, I have seen it on some bookstagram and therefore

1302
01:00:06,350 --> 01:00:08,420
S3: I'm aware of it, and I have been bugging you

1303
01:00:08,420 --> 01:00:09,680
S3: to bring it in. And you did that today.

1304
01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:10,980
S7: You have been buzzing about.

1305
01:00:11,060 --> 01:00:12,710
S2: Bugging me to bring it in when I keep up

1306
01:00:12,710 --> 01:00:14,110
S2: with the chick lit community. Correct?

1307
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:17,600
S1: Maddie's a very, very smart writer, very smart person, and

1308
01:00:17,810 --> 01:00:20,350
S1: I'm excited about this one. And Mel, you, I believe,

1309
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:21,800
S1: have an interview with her.

1310
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:22,430
S7: Yes, I do.

1311
01:00:22,430 --> 01:00:25,700
S2: Running in spectrum this weekend or you'll find it online.

1312
01:00:26,060 --> 01:00:26,470
S2: So I.

1313
01:00:27,140 --> 01:00:29,970
S7: Probably don't need to even know why you were.

1314
01:00:29,990 --> 01:00:33,110
S1: The the link there. That's what we want people to

1315
01:00:33,110 --> 01:00:36,290
S1: do is to go to she's.

1316
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:39,230
S3: She's still like paper first mindset from obviously.

1317
01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:40,970
S7: Like all good.

1318
01:00:41,060 --> 01:00:43,820
S1: News agents a couple of news agents.

1319
01:00:44,870 --> 01:00:46,610
S2: Yes I did I spoke to her about it and

1320
01:00:46,610 --> 01:00:49,550
S2: we had a really interesting conversation as well about kind

1321
01:00:49,550 --> 01:00:53,990
S2: of women's millennial fiction post, Sally Rooney and the kind

1322
01:00:53,990 --> 01:00:56,330
S2: of it's, you know, there's almost a reaction happening it

1323
01:00:56,330 --> 01:00:58,010
S2: to a now the kind of eyeroll of it. And

1324
01:00:58,010 --> 01:01:00,050
S2: I think some of the criticism is merited about the

1325
01:01:00,050 --> 01:01:03,860
S2: kind of experience of womanhood that is being published, but

1326
01:01:04,100 --> 01:01:07,040
S2: she really reacts strongly against the misogyny that is involved

1327
01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:09,590
S2: in the kind of dismissal of a whole genre and

1328
01:01:09,590 --> 01:01:13,189
S2: gender of writers and readers. So yeah, it's pretty interesting looking.

1329
01:01:13,190 --> 01:01:15,110
S1: Really intently at Thomas and I in the face, as

1330
01:01:15,110 --> 01:01:15,430
S1: you said.

1331
01:01:15,470 --> 01:01:15,689
S7: No.

1332
01:01:16,970 --> 01:01:18,950
S3: I did when I first saw it, I was like,

1333
01:01:18,950 --> 01:01:21,650
S3: is this like another Sally Rooney situation?

1334
01:01:21,650 --> 01:01:23,870
S1: We only have to have one woman, Thomas, write about

1335
01:01:23,870 --> 01:01:27,590
S1: being a millennial and relationships and work and society.

1336
01:01:27,710 --> 01:01:28,490
S7: I mean, we get it.

1337
01:01:28,490 --> 01:01:30,140
S3: Campus is crazy, blah blah blah blah.

1338
01:01:32,330 --> 01:01:34,610
S1: That is really funny. That is a great note to

1339
01:01:34,610 --> 01:01:37,760
S1: end this week's show on Thomas and Mel. Thank you

1340
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:38,240
S1: so much.

1341
01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:39,700
S2: I think we should actually go out without.

1342
01:01:39,710 --> 01:01:42,410
S9: Oh.

1343
01:01:48,530 --> 01:01:51,740
S1: This episode of The Drop was produced by Kai Wang.

1344
01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:54,740
S1: If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop,

1345
01:01:54,740 --> 01:01:57,420
S1: make sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app.

1346
01:01:57,440 --> 01:02:00,170
S1: Leave us a review or better yet, share the episode

1347
01:02:00,170 --> 01:02:03,500
S1: with a friend. I'm Osman Farooqui. See you next week.