1 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,250 S1: Hey there. I'm Osman Farooqui and this is The Drop, 2 00:00:11,250 --> 00:00:14,190 S1: a culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age, 3 00:00:14,190 --> 00:00:16,380 S1: where we dive into the latest in the world of 4 00:00:16,380 --> 00:00:20,370 S1: pop culture and entertainment. Today on the show, we're sharing 5 00:00:20,370 --> 00:00:24,390 S1: a special interview. Oscar winning director Steven Soderbergh is back 6 00:00:24,390 --> 00:00:27,120 S1: on the drop. Steven and I spoke earlier in the 7 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,150 S1: year about Magic Mike's last dance and the state of 8 00:00:30,150 --> 00:00:33,150 S1: cinema more broadly. It's worth a listen if you missed it. 9 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:38,490 S1: This week, Steven's latest project, an HBO miniseries called Full Circle, 10 00:00:38,490 --> 00:00:43,440 S1: starring Claire Danes, Zazie Beetz and Timothy Olyphant, drops on binge. 11 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:51,690 S2: You understand? Dear things happening to your family. You're happening 12 00:00:51,690 --> 00:00:52,680 S2: for a reason. 13 00:00:54,250 --> 00:00:55,930 S3: Hello? Listen to me. 14 00:00:56,530 --> 00:00:57,220 S4: Who is this? 15 00:00:58,960 --> 00:00:59,830 UU: We have your son. 16 00:01:03,590 --> 00:01:06,360 S5: The guy on the phone. Did he have an accent? 17 00:01:06,410 --> 00:01:07,130 S6: What kind? 18 00:01:07,530 --> 00:01:16,040 S5: Guyanese. Guyanese? Um. Does that mean something to you? 19 00:01:17,650 --> 00:01:19,550 S7: You do exactly what I've instructed you. 20 00:01:19,569 --> 00:01:22,300 S1: Full circle is a crime drama about a kidnapping that 21 00:01:22,300 --> 00:01:26,410 S1: goes wrong, revealing long held secrets between a big cast 22 00:01:26,410 --> 00:01:29,620 S1: of characters in New York City. It's reminiscent of Stevens 23 00:01:29,620 --> 00:01:33,760 S1: Oscar winning film from 2000 Traffic. Stevens, one of the 24 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,670 S1: busiest guys in Hollywood. And he's got a lot to 25 00:01:36,670 --> 00:01:40,450 S1: say about the TV landscape right now, how streaming is 26 00:01:40,450 --> 00:01:44,320 S1: fragmenting the industry and whether the current system is really 27 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:48,730 S1: working for audiences and creators like him. He's always a 28 00:01:48,730 --> 00:01:52,660 S1: great interview subject, so I hope you guys enjoy today's chat. 29 00:01:52,990 --> 00:01:55,150 S1: I'll be back later in the week with a regular 30 00:01:55,150 --> 00:01:59,470 S1: episode of The Drop. Okay, Here's my chat with Steven Soderbergh. 31 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:06,790 S1: Steven Soderbergh, great to talk to you again. Thank you 32 00:02:06,790 --> 00:02:08,110 S1: for your time. 33 00:02:08,500 --> 00:02:09,310 S8: My pleasure. 34 00:02:09,310 --> 00:02:11,889 S1: I want to start by asking you about the genesis 35 00:02:11,889 --> 00:02:15,070 S1: of this project full circle. How long have you been 36 00:02:15,070 --> 00:02:17,589 S1: working on it and was it a case of Ed 37 00:02:17,590 --> 00:02:20,350 S1: Solomon approaching you with the script and basically saying, Hey, 38 00:02:20,350 --> 00:02:22,779 S1: I've got this idea? Will you do it with me? 39 00:02:23,410 --> 00:02:27,190 S8: Yeah, this is kind of the danger of spending too 40 00:02:27,190 --> 00:02:34,869 S8: much time with the same people. My my recollection was 41 00:02:34,870 --> 00:02:38,739 S8: that Ed brought this up to me while we were 42 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:44,170 S8: working on No sudden Move. I mean, the early stages 43 00:02:44,470 --> 00:02:49,179 S8: of no sudden move. Ed claims that we started talking 44 00:02:49,180 --> 00:02:53,830 S8: about this as far back as Mosaic. Regardless, it was 45 00:02:53,830 --> 00:02:58,329 S8: a while ago. Um, and, and certainly in either case 46 00:02:58,330 --> 00:03:02,440 S8: before we got very serious about no sudden move. So 47 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,620 S8: it was always kind of happening in the background and 48 00:03:06,100 --> 00:03:11,860 S8: it was trying to fuse these two ideas that he had. 49 00:03:11,860 --> 00:03:16,359 S8: One had to do with a story that he read 50 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:22,720 S8: in the news about 20 years ago that that he'd 51 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:29,500 S8: filed away as interesting, which was a an insurance scam 52 00:03:29,500 --> 00:03:33,040 S8: that was put together by a group of people out 53 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:38,380 S8: in Queens to do exactly what happens in the in 54 00:03:38,380 --> 00:03:41,290 S8: in the show, which is to take out these policies, 55 00:03:41,290 --> 00:03:43,510 S8: pay the premiums for a couple of years and then 56 00:03:43,510 --> 00:03:47,410 S8: kill these people. Then he wanted to put it together 57 00:03:47,410 --> 00:03:54,100 S8: with a variation on the the idea that's in the 58 00:03:54,100 --> 00:03:56,260 S8: Kurosawa film High and Low. 59 00:03:56,410 --> 00:03:59,650 S1: Yeah, right. It's kidnapping as well, right? Yeah. 60 00:03:59,650 --> 00:04:06,250 S8: But he he pitched a twist to me that felt new. 61 00:04:06,250 --> 00:04:08,050 S8: If he'd just come to me and said, I want 62 00:04:08,050 --> 00:04:10,150 S8: to do high and low, I would have said well 63 00:04:10,150 --> 00:04:15,250 S8: that's everybody does. Yeah. Yeah. What's the special sauce? And 64 00:04:15,250 --> 00:04:17,890 S8: he told me, don't want to spoil it for people. 65 00:04:17,890 --> 00:04:20,770 S8: But he told me sort of what the new variation 66 00:04:20,770 --> 00:04:23,860 S8: on that was. And I said, Oh, that's interesting. So 67 00:04:23,860 --> 00:04:27,700 S8: he was working on this in the background the whole time, 68 00:04:27,700 --> 00:04:32,409 S8: and it was quite a lengthy sort of process. The writing, 69 00:04:32,950 --> 00:04:35,830 S8: not only because it was initially six hours, but there 70 00:04:35,830 --> 00:04:40,720 S8: was also on the heels of Mosaic, we had imagined 71 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:47,620 S8: a potential branching narrative version that would be completely separate 72 00:04:47,620 --> 00:04:51,850 S8: from the linear show. So unlike Mosaic, where we were 73 00:04:51,850 --> 00:04:55,570 S8: using the footage for both the linear version of the 74 00:04:55,570 --> 00:04:58,839 S8: show and the app version of the show, the idea 75 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:02,679 S8: here was to essentially shoot a completely different version with 76 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:09,460 S8: different cameras, different style, and that was 170 pages of 77 00:05:09,460 --> 00:05:13,270 S8: just a whole other thing that we ended up not doing. 78 00:05:13,270 --> 00:05:17,290 S8: So he he was generating a lot of work. 79 00:05:17,890 --> 00:05:21,070 S1: So this this show is pretty complicated already. And you 80 00:05:21,070 --> 00:05:22,990 S1: kind of have described how it could have been even 81 00:05:22,990 --> 00:05:26,860 S1: more ambitious when you when you got this script. And 82 00:05:26,860 --> 00:05:28,960 S1: I imagine it was it was, you know, upwards of 83 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,839 S1: 4 or 500 pages. It's like full of so many 84 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,870 S1: characters that are so rich and have so much detail 85 00:05:34,870 --> 00:05:37,779 S1: and depth to them. Where do you start? What's the 86 00:05:37,779 --> 00:05:40,450 S1: first step in tackling something like that? Is it is 87 00:05:40,450 --> 00:05:42,789 S1: it the casting? Is it. Is it? Is it? Looking 88 00:05:42,790 --> 00:05:44,770 S1: at what the story is really about? Where do you 89 00:05:44,770 --> 00:05:47,380 S1: go from from getting that? From getting that story? 90 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,970 S8: Yeah, I mean initially you're you're Well, I think the 91 00:05:51,970 --> 00:05:58,510 S8: real answer to that is how frustrating a document a 92 00:05:58,510 --> 00:06:03,250 S8: script is, right? It is so hard to extrapolate even 93 00:06:03,250 --> 00:06:06,820 S8: for people that have been doing this for a long time, 94 00:06:06,820 --> 00:06:09,700 S8: what this thing is actually going to be like when 95 00:06:09,700 --> 00:06:13,420 S8: you start to shoot it. And so we did the 96 00:06:13,420 --> 00:06:18,070 S8: best that we could during the script stage to, you know, 97 00:06:18,070 --> 00:06:22,990 S8: make sure that it was clear that you could follow it. Now, obviously, 98 00:06:22,990 --> 00:06:27,550 S8: in this case, we have the studio weighing in, which 99 00:06:27,550 --> 00:06:30,640 S8: is very helpful because they're in a sense, they're the 100 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,880 S8: first audience, you know, Ed and Ed and I have 101 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,849 S8: a vision of it that may be more filled out 102 00:06:36,850 --> 00:06:40,479 S8: in our minds than it's actually on the page. And 103 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,260 S8: so that that initial engagement with the studio is really 104 00:06:44,260 --> 00:06:47,380 S8: helpful for them to go, I got lost. I don't 105 00:06:47,380 --> 00:06:52,240 S8: understand this. What's the connection between these two people? And 106 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:54,820 S8: so there was there was a lot of trying to 107 00:06:54,820 --> 00:06:59,290 S8: distill it as much as we could before we started 108 00:06:59,290 --> 00:07:03,910 S8: going out to cast. And then to be honest, there 109 00:07:03,910 --> 00:07:09,160 S8: was that process continued while we were shooting and well 110 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:16,540 S8: into post-production. There was one pretty significant narrative thread that 111 00:07:16,540 --> 00:07:22,869 S8: during post we completely eliminated and used that space to 112 00:07:22,900 --> 00:07:26,740 S8: fill out. There were three main. I want to call 113 00:07:26,740 --> 00:07:30,550 S8: them original sins. You know that that sort of generated 114 00:07:30,550 --> 00:07:34,120 S8: the story. We pulled one of them out and in 115 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:37,510 S8: doing so we did that partially because we felt like 116 00:07:37,510 --> 00:07:42,460 S8: it was one sin too many. But also there were 117 00:07:42,460 --> 00:07:44,860 S8: a couple of characters that as we were shooting, were 118 00:07:44,860 --> 00:07:49,090 S8: really registering. We felt, and the studio felt as well. 119 00:07:49,090 --> 00:07:53,770 S8: So within weeks of finishing the principal photography, we went 120 00:07:53,770 --> 00:07:59,650 S8: back and did some additional shooting to amplify these other 121 00:07:59,650 --> 00:08:04,180 S8: characters in these other storylines that we felt were really popping. 122 00:08:04,330 --> 00:08:12,070 S8: So it was fluid. Editor was remarkably sanguine about the 123 00:08:12,070 --> 00:08:14,650 S8: whole thing. I mean, look, I think if he felt 124 00:08:14,650 --> 00:08:18,760 S8: it wasn't getting any better, that's different. But we were, 125 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,580 S8: you know, and I've worked together and and it was 126 00:08:21,580 --> 00:08:25,840 S8: just putting our heads together and saying moment to moment, 127 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:27,310 S8: how can this be better? 128 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,520 S1: I'm really curious about that process of kind of changing 129 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:33,189 S1: the story as you're shooting or perhaps just after you 130 00:08:33,190 --> 00:08:36,310 S1: sort of finished, because this this show at times, particularly 131 00:08:36,309 --> 00:08:39,219 S1: at the start, can feel very overwhelming. There's a lot 132 00:08:39,220 --> 00:08:42,970 S1: of exposition. We're really thrown into these very fully realized 133 00:08:42,970 --> 00:08:45,610 S1: worlds and characters. It's sort of like there's this show 134 00:08:45,610 --> 00:08:47,470 S1: has kind of been existing for six episodes and we 135 00:08:47,470 --> 00:08:50,679 S1: feel like we're entering it at a certain point and 136 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,620 S1: we kind of don't totally understand the motivations and what 137 00:08:53,620 --> 00:08:57,520 S1: lies beneath until the story unfolds. Was it was it 138 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,940 S1: challenging telling that or when you were shooting? My understanding 139 00:09:00,940 --> 00:09:03,490 S1: of your process on this, on this project, as it 140 00:09:03,490 --> 00:09:05,830 S1: is with so many, is you edit kind of immediately 141 00:09:05,830 --> 00:09:09,070 S1: after you're shooting. Did that mean that the challenges to it, 142 00:09:09,070 --> 00:09:11,709 S1: whether the story was working, whether these there were too 143 00:09:11,710 --> 00:09:13,780 S1: many original scenes, as you put it, was that becoming 144 00:09:13,780 --> 00:09:16,660 S1: clear to you as you were moving through the production 145 00:09:16,660 --> 00:09:17,050 S1: of it? 146 00:09:17,350 --> 00:09:21,880 S8: Yeah, it was, because in addition to posting material that 147 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,910 S8: night that we'd shot that day, or at least within 148 00:09:25,300 --> 00:09:30,400 S8: 24 hours of having shot something every two weeks or so. 149 00:09:31,210 --> 00:09:36,460 S8: I would post everything we had for each episode so 150 00:09:36,460 --> 00:09:40,390 S8: that both the Brain Trust and the studio could see, 151 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:44,920 S8: you know, episodes one through six sort of evolving and 152 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:48,010 S8: filling out and so that we could all ask these 153 00:09:48,010 --> 00:09:51,910 S8: questions that we're talking about now, which is knowing that 154 00:09:51,910 --> 00:09:55,300 S8: the setup is the most important thing. How how much 155 00:09:55,300 --> 00:09:59,680 S8: time do we have to be, as you said, kind 156 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:03,790 S8: of parachute in and make people chase it? You know, 157 00:10:03,790 --> 00:10:06,040 S8: how long can we make them chase it before they 158 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:10,690 S8: just get angry? And we've crossed over out of intrigue 159 00:10:10,690 --> 00:10:15,760 S8: into something less fun. Um, but to be honest, I was. 160 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:20,260 S8: I was willing to push that a little bit because 161 00:10:20,260 --> 00:10:23,800 S8: I felt we were being fair ultimately, and that I 162 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,920 S8: felt that the scenes themselves, even if you were trying 163 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:30,700 S8: to contextualize them, were interesting enough in the cast, was 164 00:10:30,790 --> 00:10:34,330 S8: interesting enough in the milieu, was interesting enough to just 165 00:10:34,330 --> 00:10:38,380 S8: keep pulling you through it. And once you get I 166 00:10:38,380 --> 00:10:40,990 S8: think once you get to the end of the first 167 00:10:40,990 --> 00:10:44,650 S8: episode and into the second episode, it's it's all starting 168 00:10:44,650 --> 00:10:48,700 S8: to coalesce. And then of course, the structure of it 169 00:10:48,700 --> 00:10:52,840 S8: is that essentially every two episodes, the show is kind 170 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:59,290 S8: of recalibrating itself, going further into the why of it all, 171 00:10:59,290 --> 00:11:03,809 S8: you know, as I described to the studio. You know, go, guys, 172 00:11:03,809 --> 00:11:07,470 S8: It's not a whodunit. It's a why dunnit. You know, 173 00:11:07,470 --> 00:11:11,890 S8: you know who's responsible for the crime that starts the show. 174 00:11:11,910 --> 00:11:14,010 S8: The question is, why is this happening? 175 00:11:14,309 --> 00:11:17,400 S1: Yeah. Which is a really interesting inversion of so many 176 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,520 S1: of these kinds of crime thrillers. What is a body? 177 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:22,380 S1: Or there's a bad thing. And then our job is 178 00:11:22,380 --> 00:11:25,740 S1: to watch someone very smart sort of piece it all together. 179 00:11:25,740 --> 00:11:27,930 S1: But we know straight away who the characters are. I 180 00:11:27,929 --> 00:11:30,960 S1: think that balance you're talking about, of not holding the 181 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:33,240 S1: hand of the audience too much, but making sure that 182 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,300 S1: they're not just left feeling angry or confused is a 183 00:11:36,300 --> 00:11:38,939 S1: really fine one, I think. I think you nailed it 184 00:11:38,940 --> 00:11:41,490 S1: with this show. I think I think it's also very 185 00:11:41,490 --> 00:11:44,160 S1: smart that the first two episodes are coming out, I 186 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,260 S1: think on the same day, and then it's coming out 187 00:11:46,260 --> 00:11:48,540 S1: weekly because at the end of the first episode, I'll 188 00:11:48,540 --> 00:11:51,420 S1: admit I was a bit like, All right, I'm kind 189 00:11:51,420 --> 00:11:53,760 S1: of in, but I'm a bit lost. But then as 190 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:55,830 S1: soon as you get into the second one, you're like, okay, 191 00:11:55,830 --> 00:11:58,140 S1: now I understand where this is all going and the 192 00:11:58,140 --> 00:12:00,840 S1: pieces are fitting together, but there is still so much 193 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,440 S1: more to be explored here that was really, really expertly 194 00:12:04,530 --> 00:12:05,310 S1: put together. 195 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:07,829 S8: Well, I think the tricky part is going to be 196 00:12:07,830 --> 00:12:12,540 S8: the week between 1 and 2 and three and four, 197 00:12:12,540 --> 00:12:15,090 S8: because in one and two you're like, Oh, is this 198 00:12:15,090 --> 00:12:19,140 S8: just a white people? Being victimized by people of color 199 00:12:19,140 --> 00:12:24,210 S8: show that seems kind of regressive. And if you if 200 00:12:24,210 --> 00:12:28,110 S8: you stick with it, you watch this inversion start to 201 00:12:28,110 --> 00:12:32,550 S8: take place where you go, Oh, no, it's not that. Actually, 202 00:12:32,550 --> 00:12:36,300 S8: there's something that happened 20 years ago that set this 203 00:12:36,300 --> 00:12:40,170 S8: all in motion, that this family is responsible for, that 204 00:12:40,170 --> 00:12:45,390 S8: they've refused to acknowledge. And, you know, it's payback time. 205 00:12:46,610 --> 00:12:49,400 S1: Yeah. And like on that, on the themes of the show, 206 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:52,459 S1: the last time we spoke about Magic Mike, we discussed 207 00:12:52,460 --> 00:12:55,370 S1: how that movie was kind of using the story of 208 00:12:55,370 --> 00:12:58,670 S1: male strippers to tell a much deeper story about, you know, 209 00:12:58,670 --> 00:13:03,580 S1: economic relations in the contemporary United States and around the world. 210 00:13:03,590 --> 00:13:05,570 S1: I feel like this show is doing something similar, Like 211 00:13:05,570 --> 00:13:08,240 S1: it's on one hand, it's got the tropes that are 212 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,960 S1: familiar to a genre kind of crime thriller, but it 213 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:15,470 S1: is also telling us something or showing us something about 214 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:21,290 S1: economic inequality, racial inequality. Was that something that was embedded 215 00:13:21,290 --> 00:13:23,210 S1: in this show from day one, or was it something 216 00:13:23,210 --> 00:13:24,530 S1: that came out during development? 217 00:13:25,010 --> 00:13:27,410 S8: Oh, that was very much part of Ed's pitch to me, 218 00:13:27,410 --> 00:13:31,850 S8: which is I think I've found a really interesting angle 219 00:13:31,850 --> 00:13:38,450 S8: on a kind of economic colonialism that's specific to this 220 00:13:38,450 --> 00:13:41,690 S8: place at this time. But it's going to be a 221 00:13:41,690 --> 00:13:46,460 S8: real slow burn. And I said, that sounds that sounds good. 222 00:13:46,550 --> 00:13:49,760 S8: I mean, it it kind of reminds you that in 223 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,630 S8: the most simple terms, the show is about karma. But 224 00:13:53,780 --> 00:13:59,330 S8: what I hope it presents is another word for karma 225 00:13:59,330 --> 00:14:04,190 S8: is character. You know, your, your character is your karma. 226 00:14:04,429 --> 00:14:10,490 S8: And that's the ultimate point of this. And it's of 227 00:14:10,490 --> 00:14:16,340 S8: all the characters Claire Danes character, Sam is the one 228 00:14:16,340 --> 00:14:20,660 S8: that goes through the biggest transformation by the end of 229 00:14:20,660 --> 00:14:24,140 S8: the show. You know, she starts she starts from a 230 00:14:24,140 --> 00:14:31,800 S8: place that seems pretty defended and. Impenetrable. And and by 231 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:41,220 S8: the end, partially through her slow dawning of realization regarding 232 00:14:41,220 --> 00:14:46,050 S8: her responsibility in this in this scenario, that that she 233 00:14:46,050 --> 00:14:51,239 S8: begins to sort of unwind this on her own. And 234 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,990 S8: there's nobody encouraging her to do that other than her 235 00:14:54,990 --> 00:14:59,850 S8: own sense of this innate sense that had been kind 236 00:14:59,850 --> 00:15:03,780 S8: of suppressed of what's right. It's easy to suppress what's 237 00:15:03,780 --> 00:15:06,750 S8: right when there's just money, you know, being dumped in 238 00:15:06,750 --> 00:15:07,560 S8: your lap. 239 00:15:08,820 --> 00:15:13,470 S1: You mentioned Claire Danes, and her performance is extraordinary. The 240 00:15:13,470 --> 00:15:16,110 S1: performances across the board a fantastic and there's a bunch 241 00:15:16,110 --> 00:15:17,760 S1: of actors in this. I mean, there are a few 242 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:19,920 S1: actors it feels like you haven't worked with yet, but 243 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,020 S1: you've managed to find a few in this one. I 244 00:15:22,020 --> 00:15:24,520 S1: don't think you've you work with with Claire Danes or 245 00:15:24,540 --> 00:15:27,870 S1: Dennis Quaid or Timothy Olyphant before Zazie Beetz is also 246 00:15:27,870 --> 00:15:29,580 S1: great in this, but I think she was in High 247 00:15:29,580 --> 00:15:32,670 S1: Flying Bird, the Netflix film that you made. What was 248 00:15:32,670 --> 00:15:35,310 S1: it like putting that cast together and what was it 249 00:15:35,350 --> 00:15:37,979 S1: a deliberate choice from you to sort of find some 250 00:15:37,980 --> 00:15:40,530 S1: people that you hadn't collaborated with beforehand? 251 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:45,720 S8: Yeah, I mean, Denis I'd worked with before briefly in Traffic, 252 00:15:46,170 --> 00:15:49,260 S8: but that was the the joke I had with him is, 253 00:15:49,260 --> 00:15:51,870 S8: you know, every 22 years we're going to we're going 254 00:15:51,870 --> 00:15:56,520 S8: to hook up. Um, but Claire I hadn't worked with before, 255 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:01,260 S8: and she's someone I've loved since she started acting. Tim 256 00:16:01,260 --> 00:16:05,370 S8: Oliphant I've loved since I saw him in Go, you know, 257 00:16:05,430 --> 00:16:08,960 S8: a long time ago. So he's always been on my list. 258 00:16:08,970 --> 00:16:14,250 S8: What was really exciting were these the young people that 259 00:16:14,250 --> 00:16:19,650 S8: are so central to the piece? And then this actor, 260 00:16:19,650 --> 00:16:25,440 S8: Paula Sharma, who's out of the UK who's just fantastic. 261 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:27,690 S1: Yeah, who plays and he's brilliant. He's so gripping. 262 00:16:27,930 --> 00:16:33,000 S8: Yeah, yeah, he's so good. He was his storyline along 263 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:37,380 S8: with Shay Cole, the Javier character. That was one of 264 00:16:37,380 --> 00:16:41,700 S8: the lines of narrative that Ed and I were expanding 265 00:16:41,700 --> 00:16:46,530 S8: as we were shooting and then through post-production shooting, because 266 00:16:46,530 --> 00:16:49,770 S8: I really liked, first of all, I just thought that 267 00:16:49,770 --> 00:16:54,510 S8: dynamic was really interesting and they were just really popping. 268 00:16:54,690 --> 00:16:57,870 S8: But these, these young actors were so good and they're 269 00:16:57,870 --> 00:17:03,220 S8: so smart. It's it's really interesting to a person. There 270 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:09,169 S8: are so together as people. I'm used to people that young, 271 00:17:09,170 --> 00:17:14,450 S8: being talented, but not having a sort of 30,000 foot 272 00:17:14,450 --> 00:17:20,300 S8: view of themselves. Their talent, the business, you know, relationships. 273 00:17:20,300 --> 00:17:25,340 S8: And I was sort of in awe of just how 274 00:17:25,340 --> 00:17:28,700 S8: together they were as people and how how smart they 275 00:17:28,700 --> 00:17:32,570 S8: were and thinking about their work and about the business. 276 00:17:32,570 --> 00:17:35,750 S8: And it was it was sort of I was like, wow, 277 00:17:35,750 --> 00:17:38,330 S8: this is a new breed. You know, this is just 278 00:17:38,330 --> 00:17:44,210 S8: a new breed of performer where they they understand it all. 279 00:17:44,210 --> 00:17:49,160 S8: And and there is no universe in which they would 280 00:17:49,490 --> 00:17:54,949 S8: derail themselves by being self destructive or treating people poorly 281 00:17:54,950 --> 00:18:00,110 S8: or anything like their their understanding of being aerodynamic and 282 00:18:00,109 --> 00:18:07,129 S8: focusing on doing good work was just really, really inspiring. 283 00:18:07,250 --> 00:18:07,490 S8: I mean. 284 00:18:07,490 --> 00:18:09,740 S1: Even in journalism, I look at the younger generation coming 285 00:18:09,740 --> 00:18:11,330 S1: through and think they can do everything I can do 286 00:18:11,330 --> 00:18:14,600 S1: plus 100 other things. Are you ever worried watching this 287 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:16,760 S1: next generation of creatives, you're like, Am I am I 288 00:18:16,790 --> 00:18:18,680 S1: obsolete now? Do I still have to be here with 289 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:19,280 S1: what these guys can? 290 00:18:19,310 --> 00:18:24,889 S8: Well, it certainly pushes you and and makes you realize 291 00:18:24,890 --> 00:18:29,240 S8: if you have any sort of part of you that's 292 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:33,109 S8: complacent there, you're just going to get run over. But 293 00:18:33,109 --> 00:18:37,430 S8: it's it's I think we get based on our experience 294 00:18:37,430 --> 00:18:39,800 S8: of the world, which is getting more and more intense 295 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:44,730 S8: by the day. It's easy to feel like. You know, Oh, 296 00:18:44,730 --> 00:18:48,600 S8: these you know, this younger generation mean every generation says this, but, 297 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:52,350 S8: you know, oh, this younger generation, their priorities are all 298 00:18:52,350 --> 00:18:56,399 S8: this and that and they don't understand. And it turns out, 299 00:18:56,430 --> 00:19:00,510 S8: you know, when you spend time with creative people like 300 00:19:00,510 --> 00:19:05,369 S8: the ones we were working with, they've taken advantage of 301 00:19:05,369 --> 00:19:08,940 S8: all of the things that we view as being a problem, 302 00:19:09,030 --> 00:19:14,790 S8: namely access to all information all the time. The creative 303 00:19:14,790 --> 00:19:17,850 S8: young people that I've worked with over the past ten 304 00:19:17,850 --> 00:19:23,430 S8: years have taken full advantage of that. They've seen everything. 305 00:19:23,430 --> 00:19:27,090 S8: They know everything. There's no reference that I can make 306 00:19:27,090 --> 00:19:30,270 S8: that they don't understand. Like it's I'm like, wow, they 307 00:19:30,270 --> 00:19:37,439 S8: really are the the next iteration of creative thinking and 308 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:42,180 S8: and they really have taken on the upside of the 309 00:19:42,180 --> 00:19:46,680 S8: information overload that feels overwhelming to most of us. They 310 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:50,610 S8: view it as normal and and they just use it 311 00:19:50,609 --> 00:19:54,699 S8: to their advantage. So yeah, you're right. It's exciting and 312 00:19:54,810 --> 00:19:56,100 S8: also intimidating. 313 00:19:56,730 --> 00:19:59,760 S1: In terms of that information overload. You mentioned traffic working 314 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:01,530 S1: with Dennis Quaid on that. I mean, this this show 315 00:20:01,530 --> 00:20:05,040 S1: full circle shares some DNA. It would be reductive to 316 00:20:05,250 --> 00:20:07,229 S1: compare them too much. But, you know, this idea of 317 00:20:07,230 --> 00:20:09,960 S1: of characters from different walks of life who are all 318 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:11,910 S1: kind of linked in these ways that might not seem 319 00:20:11,910 --> 00:20:14,550 S1: obvious on the surface. I've been thinking about traffic in 320 00:20:14,550 --> 00:20:16,920 S1: the lead up to this conversation with you and what 321 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,410 S1: would be so different about telling a story like that. 322 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:24,000 S1: The age of social media, the Internet ubiquity more generally. 323 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,510 S1: It makes this idea that we all feel so connected 324 00:20:27,510 --> 00:20:32,250 S1: all the time anyway, and technology makes some of the 325 00:20:32,250 --> 00:20:34,620 S1: conceit in the kinds of stories that you would tell 326 00:20:34,619 --> 00:20:37,110 S1: in a film like Traffic, a little bit more complicated 327 00:20:37,109 --> 00:20:38,880 S1: because it would be so much easier to just find 328 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,190 S1: out who someone is or or know who that kind 329 00:20:41,190 --> 00:20:43,379 S1: of person is, what kind of challenges you come up 330 00:20:43,380 --> 00:20:46,590 S1: with telling a story like Full Circle in an era 331 00:20:46,590 --> 00:20:50,189 S1: where everyone's got mobile phones, everyone can like Google and 332 00:20:50,190 --> 00:20:52,320 S1: find out who a person is. They know who famous 333 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:54,330 S1: people are. All of that sort of stuff is so 334 00:20:54,330 --> 00:20:55,530 S1: much more collapsed. 335 00:20:55,530 --> 00:21:02,250 S8: Yeah, it's horrible. It's it's. It's really horrible. Every time 336 00:21:02,250 --> 00:21:05,280 S8: I had to shoot an insert of a phone or 337 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:09,120 S8: a screen, it just it's just so frustrating as a 338 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:12,690 S8: filmmaker because you you feel like you're failing if you're 339 00:21:12,690 --> 00:21:15,810 S8: shooting an insert, if you're shooting an insert of a phone, 340 00:21:15,810 --> 00:21:18,240 S8: you just feel like you're failing. You feel like that's 341 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,690 S8: not cinema, but this is the world we live in 342 00:21:21,690 --> 00:21:28,200 S8: and it does affect stories like this in which connections 343 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:32,100 S8: that might take somebody a while to make 20 years ago, 344 00:21:32,100 --> 00:21:35,490 S8: you can make in 20s. I guess what it means 345 00:21:35,490 --> 00:21:39,450 S8: is this show is six episodes. You know, 20 years 346 00:21:39,450 --> 00:21:43,380 S8: ago it could have been 12 episodes. You know, that's fine. 347 00:21:43,380 --> 00:21:47,190 S8: It's just you've got to you've got to acknowledge that. 348 00:21:47,190 --> 00:21:50,850 S8: But I think that the trick of it is to 349 00:21:50,850 --> 00:21:56,129 S8: not let it pull you from the spine of what 350 00:21:56,130 --> 00:21:59,310 S8: the piece is, and in this case, the spine of 351 00:21:59,310 --> 00:22:03,570 S8: it at the end of the day is the philosophical question. 352 00:22:03,900 --> 00:22:08,220 S8: If you could press a button that gave you $1 million, 353 00:22:08,220 --> 00:22:10,590 S8: but it was going to hurt somebody on the other 354 00:22:10,590 --> 00:22:13,619 S8: side of the world that you don't know and that 355 00:22:13,619 --> 00:22:16,710 S8: you will never meet. Would you do it? 356 00:22:17,570 --> 00:22:19,820 S1: Remind me to start every interview with you by asking 357 00:22:19,820 --> 00:22:22,190 S1: you what is the philosophical question at the heart of 358 00:22:22,190 --> 00:22:25,369 S1: this show? Because that is that is so compelling. I 359 00:22:25,369 --> 00:22:27,740 S1: think if people were kind of thinking about, do I 360 00:22:27,740 --> 00:22:29,720 S1: want to give this a go, that sums it up. 361 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,540 S1: And it's a story that is told beautifully with that 362 00:22:32,540 --> 00:22:35,149 S1: with that question at the heart of it. The series 363 00:22:35,150 --> 00:22:38,360 S1: Stevens being released on on Macs, formerly HBO. Max, it's 364 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:41,930 S1: been a tumultuous time for the streaming for the industry 365 00:22:41,930 --> 00:22:46,070 S1: in general. As someone who's made films for cinema release 366 00:22:46,070 --> 00:22:49,670 S1: as an independent filmmaker for big studios, films for streamers 367 00:22:49,670 --> 00:22:53,179 S1: and TV shows, the different platforms as well. How do 368 00:22:53,180 --> 00:22:55,639 S1: you feel about the state of things at the moment, 369 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,219 S1: the kind of contraction we seem to be going through 370 00:22:58,220 --> 00:22:59,240 S1: after this boom? 371 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,090 S8: Well, I try to put myself in two places at 372 00:23:02,090 --> 00:23:05,810 S8: the same time. One one is is sort of stepping 373 00:23:05,810 --> 00:23:11,119 S8: back and trying to identify the difference between a phase 374 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:16,160 S8: and and and a secular change. And then on on 375 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,850 S8: the micro level, just day to day going to work. 376 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,030 S8: I don't really worry about it like it's an artist 377 00:23:23,030 --> 00:23:28,160 S8: job to adapt. And I'm the cockroach of the entertainment industry. 378 00:23:28,170 --> 00:23:33,379 S8: Like I'm I'm going to keep scuttling around no matter 379 00:23:33,380 --> 00:23:36,340 S8: what version gets thrown at me. So I don't I 380 00:23:36,350 --> 00:23:39,800 S8: don't burn a lot of calories being upset about where 381 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,550 S8: it's going. In that sense, I'm interested in it and 382 00:23:43,550 --> 00:23:47,930 S8: I'm fascinated by it. And I like talking to people 383 00:23:47,930 --> 00:23:52,130 S8: who know more than I do about where they think 384 00:23:52,130 --> 00:23:56,120 S8: this is going. But it's at the end of the day, 385 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,720 S8: you just have to figure it out. And I don't 386 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:04,970 S8: look back and I don't I don't feel nostalgic. I 387 00:24:04,970 --> 00:24:08,120 S8: don't have nostalgia for. Oh, wow. It used to be 388 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,970 S8: I mean, look, I got to see the very, very 389 00:24:10,970 --> 00:24:14,899 S8: tail end of the old version of Hollywood when we 390 00:24:14,900 --> 00:24:18,230 S8: made the first when we made the first Ocean's movie, 391 00:24:18,230 --> 00:24:23,000 S8: that was that was the last sort of vestige of 392 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:27,020 S8: the Hollywood that I think people fantasized about, which is Warners. 393 00:24:27,020 --> 00:24:29,300 S8: And Warners had all these jets, and they would fly 394 00:24:29,300 --> 00:24:31,909 S8: you all around. And it was, you know, you were like, Oh, shit, 395 00:24:31,910 --> 00:24:36,770 S8: this is like Hollywood. And then it was over. But 396 00:24:36,770 --> 00:24:39,679 S8: that's I don't it's not like, Oh, I missed that. 397 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:44,300 S8: That's just that just very quickly morphed into something else. 398 00:24:44,300 --> 00:24:47,780 S8: And that's not what it is anymore. But I don't 399 00:24:47,780 --> 00:24:50,570 S8: I don't see a lot of value. It's interesting to 400 00:24:50,570 --> 00:24:55,640 S8: analyze the past, to look for clues toward the future. 401 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,540 S8: But but I don't I don't lament, you know, any 402 00:24:59,540 --> 00:25:04,399 S8: prior version of the industry because what's the point? It's gone. 403 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,159 S1: One of the downsides of being in my kind of 404 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,190 S1: role where you watch too many things and you think 405 00:25:10,190 --> 00:25:12,950 S1: too much about all of this sort of stuff, I 406 00:25:12,950 --> 00:25:15,230 S1: think from a creative perspective, I think everything you said 407 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,290 S1: makes total sense and I think you have. It's so 408 00:25:18,290 --> 00:25:20,900 S1: clear your ability to adapt to so many different kind 409 00:25:20,900 --> 00:25:23,000 S1: of formats and models and modes of making this sort 410 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:24,560 S1: of stuff. But one thing that I do think about 411 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,620 S1: is from an audience perspective, right? Things are so fragmented 412 00:25:27,619 --> 00:25:30,260 S1: now that you can have an amazing director and writer 413 00:25:30,260 --> 00:25:33,580 S1: team like you and Ed Solomon make an incredible show. 414 00:25:33,590 --> 00:25:37,520 S1: You can have incredible stuff being made Disney, Amazon, the theaters, 415 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,459 S1: the streamers, whatever. But there's so much choice. There's so 416 00:25:40,460 --> 00:25:43,460 S1: much option for people to watch that you can have 417 00:25:43,460 --> 00:25:46,310 S1: like a prestige drama that stars Julia Roberts and Sean 418 00:25:46,310 --> 00:25:52,040 S1: Penn about the Watergate stuff that's watched by 0.02% of 419 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,369 S1: the population. And I don't like as a fan of 420 00:25:55,369 --> 00:25:57,860 S1: great stuff, it makes me a little bit sad that 421 00:25:57,859 --> 00:26:00,830 S1: so much amazing stuff exists that people are consuming. From 422 00:26:00,830 --> 00:26:03,530 S1: your perspective. Is that something that you think about or 423 00:26:03,530 --> 00:26:05,869 S1: is it just great to have this stuff existing out there? 424 00:26:06,290 --> 00:26:10,250 S8: No, I know what you mean. And and I really 425 00:26:10,250 --> 00:26:14,690 S8: enjoyed gaslit and and yeah, I go I look. Yeah, 426 00:26:14,690 --> 00:26:16,400 S8: I look at it and go, wow, there's so much 427 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:20,240 S8: good work here, you know, why isn't this, you know, 428 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,840 S8: taking up more real estate? Not that people didn't know 429 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,390 S8: it was there, but, you know, there are other things 430 00:26:26,390 --> 00:26:30,560 S8: that that suck up a lot more oxygen that maybe 431 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:35,540 S8: aren't as good. Um, I don't know, I guess. I 432 00:26:35,540 --> 00:26:41,300 S8: guess I have to stay focused on working, just working 433 00:26:41,300 --> 00:26:45,590 S8: and going to work and knowing that none of it 434 00:26:45,590 --> 00:26:48,109 S8: is really within your control. But the thing that's really 435 00:26:48,109 --> 00:26:51,860 S8: not within your control is the sort of the cultural 436 00:26:51,859 --> 00:26:57,260 S8: moment at which your show appears or your movie, and 437 00:26:57,260 --> 00:27:01,700 S8: whether or not it's something that people feel they've got 438 00:27:01,700 --> 00:27:06,379 S8: to see at that specific point in time. And and 439 00:27:06,590 --> 00:27:09,740 S8: you just you can't control that. You just never know. 440 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,250 S8: I'm sure everybody involved in squid game, you know, the 441 00:27:13,250 --> 00:27:18,560 S8: month before that dropped on Netflix had no idea what 442 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,560 S8: was going to happen. It was just the thing, the 443 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,290 S8: right thing at the right time that everybody suddenly had 444 00:27:24,290 --> 00:27:28,310 S8: to see if you could conjure that, you would. And 445 00:27:28,310 --> 00:27:32,240 S8: the bottom line is they just happened. And so you've 446 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,720 S8: got to put your faith in your own process and 447 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:40,790 S8: your own criteria for what's good and hope that like 448 00:27:40,790 --> 00:27:45,859 S8: concentric circles, that at some point, you know, the planets 449 00:27:45,859 --> 00:27:48,380 S8: will line up and you'll make something really good at 450 00:27:48,380 --> 00:27:50,659 S8: a moment where people were like, I really want to 451 00:27:50,660 --> 00:27:57,890 S8: see that. So it's, I think trying to manufacture that 452 00:27:58,670 --> 00:28:02,180 S8: it it rarely works, if ever. You just, you just 453 00:28:02,180 --> 00:28:05,119 S8: got to make something good and and, you know, light 454 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:05,780 S8: a candle. 455 00:28:06,290 --> 00:28:08,900 S1: Stephen, you're the busiest man in Hollywood. I'm sure there's 456 00:28:08,900 --> 00:28:11,860 S1: already projects you're well in the midst of at the moment. 457 00:28:11,869 --> 00:28:14,940 S1: What is what is cooking for you? Films, TV, What's next? 458 00:28:14,980 --> 00:28:17,150 S8: Well, I've got something secret that's going to show up 459 00:28:17,150 --> 00:28:18,290 S8: in a couple of weeks. 460 00:28:18,290 --> 00:28:20,120 S1: Yeah, right. No clues? 461 00:28:20,180 --> 00:28:25,880 S8: Nope. I shot. I shot it just before while we 462 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:30,320 S8: were editing Magic Mike, just before we started shooting Full circle. 463 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,990 S8: And so I've been working on it in the background, 464 00:28:32,990 --> 00:28:37,020 S8: and it's going to emerge in a couple of weeks. 465 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:37,369 S9: Awesome. 466 00:28:37,369 --> 00:28:40,820 S1: I'm very excited. Very excited to finish full circle as well. Stephen, 467 00:28:40,820 --> 00:28:42,500 S1: such a pleasure to talk to you as always. Thank 468 00:28:42,500 --> 00:28:43,190 S1: you so much. 469 00:28:43,430 --> 00:28:44,900 S8: Yeah, to be continued. 470 00:28:48,350 --> 00:28:52,220 S1: This episode of The Drop was produced by Taiwan. If 471 00:28:52,220 --> 00:28:54,950 S1: you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop, make 472 00:28:54,950 --> 00:28:58,040 S1: sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app. Give 473 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,740 S1: us a review or better yet, share the episode with 474 00:29:00,740 --> 00:29:03,770 S1: a friend. I'm Osman Farooqui. See you next time.