S1: Hey there. I'm Osman Farooqui and this is The Drop,
S1: a culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age,
S1: where we dive into the latest in the world of
S1: pop culture and entertainment. I'm here back with Thomas Mitchell
S1: and Mel Kambouris. What's up, guys? We're doing good.
S2: Yeah, just happy to be back. Happy to see. We're
S2: going to get into it. But country music finally having
S2: its long overdue moment. So, yeah, I'm excited for this one.
S3: Yeah, it's been good. I feel like you've been waiting
S3: for this episode for some time and you've certainly been
S3: singing a lot in the office, correct?
S2: So there's so many times you can pitch it and
S2: then eventually it catches.
S1: There are very few people in my life when I
S1: say that. Actually it's literally just you, Thomas, who a genuine,
S1: I think, aficionados and fans of country music. So the
S1: kind of events of the last few weeks, months and
S1: yeah maybe even longer than that we'll get into it
S1: have made me think about you a lot. It's been
S1: a pretty interesting ride. So over the last couple of weeks,
S1: one particular song, a country song that was written and
S1: recorded by a complete unknown, was released on YouTube, didn't
S1: have the backing of a major label, and it became
S1: the biggest song in the world.
S4: I've been selling my soul. Working all day overtime, hours
S4: for bullshit pay so I can sit out here and
S4: waste my life away.
UU: Drive back home and drown my troubles away.
S4: It's a damn shame.
UU: What the world's gotten to for people like me. People
UU: like you Wish I could just wake up and not
UU: be true. But it is.
S1: That song is called Rich Men North of Richmond. It's
S1: by an artist who performs under the name Oliver Anthony,
S1: and it's very, very popular. It's also very, very controversial.
S1: It even popped up at the US Republican presidential debate
S1: last week and it's been number one on the Billboard
S1: charts for two weeks now. It's rocketing up the Australian
S1: Aria charts as well. So it's a good opportunity to
S1: not just talk about that song, Richmond, north of Richmond,
S1: and what its success kind of tells us about music
S1: right now, but also this broader trend of country having
S1: I don't even think it's a resurgence. It actually is
S1: probably bigger and more popular in Australia and in the
S1: US than it probably has ever been, which I think
S1: is really, really interesting. The number one song in Australia
S1: right now is a country song. You get a.
S4: Fast car and I want to tick it.
UU: To anywhere. Maybe we make a deal, maybe together we can.
S4: Get somewhere and it places better. Starting from zero got
S4: nothing to lose. Maybe we'll make something. Me, myself. I
S4: got nothing to prove.
S1: In the United States. Top three songs are all country songs,
S1: and that's never happened before in history. The last time
S1: there were two country songs in the top two positions
S1: was back when Dolly Parton released 9 to 5 more
S1: than 40 years ago. So there's a big, big change
S1: from the last couple of years, which have been pretty
S1: pop and hip hop dominated, which we've spoken about on
S1: this show before. Thomas Before we get into too many
S1: of the specific things, just as a country guy, are
S1: you living right now?
S3: To be fair, let's clarify. You're not from the country.
S1: So as a country music guy, yeah, In.
S2: Fact, I'm definitely not from the country. Look, I think
S2: it's really interesting because I actually found my way into
S2: country music through my wife, whose family is from the country.
S2: They're from Dubbo in the central mid-west of New South Wales.
S1: Oh, that's like proper country territory, a stone's throw from
S1: the Tamworth Country Music Festival.
S2: Exactly. And this is why I think country music is
S2: so great because like, I went into it with the
S2: same approach that so many people have country music, which
S2: is like a bit of an eye roll, like it
S2: exists in a vacuum. People know it's a genre and
S2: if you're not into it, you're not into it, and
S2: you don't even kind of like it doesn't even cross
S2: your radar. But it was like forced upon me on
S2: the six hour drives to Dubbo when I was like
S2: questioning the decisions I'd made to marry her etcetera. And
S2: now I like couldn't like I couldn't be more of
S2: a country music fan. And I you know, we spoke
S2: a long time ago when it was announced that Luke
S2: Combs was touring Australia, one of the fastest selling tours
S2: of last year. And I pitched him to you and
S2: you trusted me. But I could tell in your eyes
S2: you were like, Who is this? What is this story?
S1: I felt like I was going out on a limb,
S1: like I was not across Luke Combs. You did a
S1: very good job of explaining why he was important. And
S1: to be honest, you were vindicated because it was such
S1: a big tour. And he's so big.
S3: Yeah, You were more stressed about getting Luke Luke's tickets
S3: for his shows here than you were about having a baby,
S3: I think.
S2: Yes. And I've never.
S3: Month I've.
S2: Never pulled in so many favors to get those tickets. Well, not.
S1: Just you, but, you know, South Sydney star Latrell Mitchell
S1: famously loves Luke Combs. Couldn't get tickets. And I think
S1: he did like a weird press conference where he's like, Please, Sony,
S1: give me tickets.
S2: And he goes And lo and behold, he and I
S2: pulled the same strings. And then my wife went with
S2: Latrell Mitchell to the concert. She was sitting next to him.
S2: He she said, like he this is a side we
S2: can get rid of this like 60 people asked him
S2: for photos. That's not an.
S1: Aside any opportunity to talk about rugby league and the
S1: South Sydney Rabbitohs is a great moment on this podcast.
S2: Exactly. And so yes, once again it's been proven that
S2: Latrell and I have the same immaculate taste.
S3: So before countries kind of rise now into kind of
S3: across into the mainstream, you were listening to like country
S3: radio and some of those kind of lesser known country singers.
S2: No, like a lot of the old school country her
S2: family is into. But then you very much noticed like,
S2: you know, country would play at their family get togethers
S2: and stuff. But then all of the young generation, it's
S2: all very much like Morgan Wallen, Luke Combs, like they were.
S2: The first time I heard these guys was like from
S2: the young members of their like country family. And then
S2: kind of it's probably in the last like 2 or
S2: 3 years. And then now all of a sudden, everyone
S2: I know is like a Luke Combs fan, a Morgan
S2: Wallen guy, like is obsessed with this movement. And so, yeah,
S2: here we are.
S1: And Mel, you're you're a sophisticated, urbane thinking woman.
S5: Well, I would not call her urbane.
S3: Thank you so much. I think.
S1: I don't really know what urbane means. I thought it
S1: just meant you come from the city, which is my
S1: understanding of your background. My guess is that maybe a
S1: bit more like me. You haven't had a sort of
S1: long term country affinity.
S3: Yeah, I think that's fair to say. I think country crossover,
S3: I'm probably, you know, we all listen to that. Shania
S3: Twain was very big part of my childhood. Kacey Musgraves,
S3: Carrie Underwood.
S5: Like, let's.
S2: Go, girls. Every time we had girls and in the
S2: WhatsApp stream.
S3: Absolutely I do, man. I feel like a woman every
S3: time before I come on the podcast. So I think
S3: I have like my knowledge of country other than kind
S3: of the classics, Dixie Chicks, Dolly Parton, Johnny Cash is
S3: probably more those ones that cross into the commercial, though
S3: I have to say, I really do like country music
S3: films like Nashville. Oh Brother, Where Art Thou Walk the
S3: Line Crazy Heart. Like I have watched a fair few
S3: country films as well.
S1: So I think now that we've kind of shared our
S1: base levels of like knowledge and appreciation of the genre,
S1: it's a good opportunity to start talking about what the
S1: hell has been going on in the last few weeks,
S1: because I think like even if this song Richmond, north
S1: of Richmond, had not bubbled up, this would still be
S1: a really fascinating chat just because of these these big hits,
S1: the Morgan Wallen, the Luke Holmes, everything going on. But
S1: what this song Oliver Anthony has done is just so
S1: fascinating and weird that it takes, I think, a little
S1: bit of unpacking to really to really convey how significant
S1: and bizarre this kind of moment in music is. It
S1: deserves its own deep dive. Thomas As not just the
S1: bigger fan of country, but the only person in my
S1: life who actually messaged me about this song. I think
S1: maybe you could help us out here by giving us
S1: a bit of background to what it is, where it
S1: came from, and a little bit about its meteoric rise.
S2: It's worth mentioning that historically country music has often had
S2: that association with the conservative movement. It's, you know, it's
S2: often working class songs about people from the land, and
S2: often those two things align. And, you know, we've had
S2: a bit of a weird situation where only a few
S2: months ago, Jason Aldean, another massive country star, had a
S2: big hit with Try That in a Small Town, which
S2: was this kind of weird anthem, almost like, you know,
S2: there was shades of like antebellum in it where it
S2: was like, don't be bringing those protests to our small town.
S2: And it became quite a big hit and it flared up.
S2: This thing that we've seen before in country music where
S2: it's like, is there this underlying unpleasantness? You know, we've
S2: talked about people like Morgan Wallen, who has had his own,
S2: you know, issues in the past with race related incidents.
S2: And even Luke Combs, who I love, has apologized for
S2: rocking a Confederate flag in the past. So with all
S2: of that context, you know, there is this feeling around
S2: country music that sometimes it belongs to the right.
S1: Yeah, there's a vibe that country music overlaps with, like
S1: Confederate right wing Republican sort of stuff.
S2: Right, Exactly. And they're all kind of like cooking away
S2: in the same broth, which could be the great name
S2: for a.
S1: Country song, a gumbo, even, you know. Yes.
S2: Anyway, cut to August 8th, 2023, and a song Richmond,
S2: north of Richmond, is uploaded to YouTube by Oliver Anthony Music,
S2: which is Oliver Anthony's performing name. Pretty quickly. This song,
S2: which features a guy with a red beard, his dog
S2: is next to him. He seems to be standing in
S2: some kind of lovely outdoor area. He's picking a banjo
S2: and he's basically singing about the Washington elites who are
S2: the rich men north of Richmond.
UU: The Richmond North. Richmond, Lord knows all, just want to
UU: have total control. Want to know what.
S4: You think.
UU: Want to know what you do. And they don't think
UU: you know. But I know that you do because your
UU: dollar ain't shit and it's tax to no ten Cause
UU: the rich man knows the rich man.
S2: And it's kind of this like rallying cry. He's complaining
S2: about politicians and taxes and welfare and and there's a
S2: real struggling working man's kind of vibe. The song blows
S2: up on YouTube and goes viral, you know, viral in
S2: the almost the old school YouTube viral way, talking tens
S2: of millions of views within a few days. It went
S2: to number one in the US iTunes all genres chart.
S2: It went to number one on Spotify, US and eventually
S2: kind of the Holy Grail. It debuted at number one
S2: on the Billboard Hot 100 chart. He's the first artist
S2: to ever notch a top single with no prior chart history. Well,
S2: essentially what happened is, you know, there are a few
S2: kind of controversial moments in the song. He starts to
S2: kind of talk about these like, Washington elites, but then
S2: it feels less like a shot at everyone. And there
S2: are shades of like he starts talking about overweight people.
S2: He starts talking about welfare cheats. There are some really
S2: weird moments where he seems to reference Jeffrey Epstein's island, where,
S2: you know, talks about minors on an island. And essentially
S2: as the song became bigger and started to blow up online,
S2: you're seeing it on like Instagram and Facebook and TikTok,
S2: and people are kind of like trying to figure out
S2: the messaging. And that's where it starts to become this
S2: strange viral moment, which has been like, I guess, grasped
S2: by the right and they've made it theirs. Now, on
S2: top of that, you've got Anthony as the song has
S2: become bigger coming out and he's basically being forced to
S2: like declare his position. Where does he stand in all this?
S2: Who is this guy? Is he some kind of like
S2: conservative plant? He releases a video that says he is
S2: politically dead center. And it seems that both sides serve
S2: the same master and that master is not someone of
S2: any good to the people of the country. However, as
S2: is often the case with any kind of Internet explosion,
S2: people start digging into his past and it seems there
S2: are kind of several moments where perhaps he is that
S2: way inclined. And then as we mentioned earlier, the song
S2: then gets mentioned during the Republican debate. Fox play a
S2: snippet of the surprise chart topper during the debate and
S2: talk about why has this struck such a chord with people.
S2: And and I think Ron DeSantis said, you know, our
S2: country is in decline.
S6: Our country is in decline. This decline is not inevitable.
S6: It's a choice. We need to send Joe Biden back
S6: to his basement and reverse American decline.
S2: The decline is not inevitable, and we need to send
S2: Joe Biden back. And this song speaks to that.
S6: We we also cannot succeed when the Congress spends trillions
S6: and trillions of dollars. Those rich men north of Richmond
S6: have put us in this situation. And finally, we need
S6: to lower your gas prices. We're going to.
S2: Again, Anthony has come out post that and said like,
S2: this is not what the song is about. This is
S2: not what we should be doing with this song. And essentially,
S2: you've got Richmond, north of Richmond, less than a month ago,
S2: uploaded to YouTube by a no name artist, and all
S2: of a sudden it's become this cultural flashpoint for country
S2: music at a time when country music is bigger than ever.
S2: And it's making people kind of, I guess, think about
S2: the messaging, think about how we interpret art, but also
S2: like how easily things can be weaponized for the purpose
S2: of cultural wars. It's a really.
S1: Good summary and I think it seems like it's almost
S1: impossible to kind of untangle this song itself. Like its
S1: kind of merits and its popularity from the culture war
S1: around it. Like when I first saw this song, it
S1: wasn't on YouTube. It wasn't sort of someone saying, Hey,
S1: this is a pretty good song. It was on social
S1: media where it was being shared by a lot of
S1: very high profile right wing influencers, people like Matt Walsh,
S1: Jack Posobiec with these big kind of like alt right
S1: guys that have millions and millions of followers on X.com,
S1: which used to be Twitter. And it sort of feels
S1: like that's a big part of this story as well.
S1: Like even if you separate out and we'll get into it,
S1: whatever Oliver Anthony's kind of politics are, it was latched
S1: onto so quickly that these guys were sort of pushing
S1: it as a right wing anthem. It was getting boosted
S1: in these social media algorithms and even it reaching number one.
S1: There's been some theories that perhaps a lot of wealthy
S1: conservatives were buying digital downloads, which count for more on
S1: the charts than just your average Spotify YouTube stream, which
S1: maybe gamed the charts to to send it up to
S1: number one. So it is very hard to sort of
S1: separate out all of these things. We'll try for a
S1: second at least to just talk about the song itself
S1: and why maybe it felt like it struck a chord.
S1: I don't love this kind of music generally, but I
S1: was kind of attracted to the video of just this
S1: kind of regular looking guy singing songs. And yes, we'll
S1: talk about some of those more controversial and frankly, bizarre lyrics. But.
S1: Pretty broad themes of just being a guy, wanting to
S1: work hard and not have greedy elite politicians kind of
S1: like strip you from what you're trying to do for
S1: your family. And he had a lot of emotion. It's
S1: also catchy. It's got a chorus that kind of gets
S1: stuck in your head. It has all the bits and
S1: pieces to make a song resonate. Whether or not it
S1: would have gone to number one without this big discourse
S1: around it, I am not sure, but I kind of
S1: think the song is pretty good, I guess as far
S1: as country songs go. What are your guys vibes?
S3: Yeah, I mean, the man can sing and I think
S3: it's his passionate delivery that has got so many people
S3: interested in it and watching it and listening to it
S3: because you really do feel feel he's feeling, which I
S3: think is is rare in a lot of music out
S3: there today. I think you can obviously play as well
S3: that comes across. And then there is that kind of
S3: raw authenticity, pared back ness of the video. I agree
S3: with you that the man is obviously talented and yeah, yeah.
S2: I think it's that funny thing where like, you know,
S2: it had all the right elements. It's got this kind
S2: of like very, you know, average Joe looking guy, like
S2: just like heart on the sleeve, like pouring it out.
S2: And he's really like, pinching at the right moment. So
S2: he's like, you know, the man's taxing us. You're working
S2: all day. They want total control. And that's the thing. Like,
S2: I'd seen it and I'd seen it on my Spotify,
S2: Then I made mine text me and he was like, Oh,
S2: I think I loved that right wing song. And I
S2: was like, knew exactly what he was saying. And then like,
S2: I kind of listened to it and I'm like, Fuck yeah, man. Like,
S2: I hate taxing my money. And like, I was, like,
S2: fully swept up. Completely. Yeah.
S1: Thomas. Thomas Every morning Thomas is texting, being like one
S1: of the stage three tax cuts coming.
S2: I've been stressing about them. Definitely didn't have to Google
S2: him after he text me back.
S3: The other day. I mean, you don't hear a lot
S3: of people sing about tax.
S5: Do you know, this is the thing.
S2: And so I'm kind of like he's doing like the
S2: first listen, he's like singing. I'm like vibing it. I'm like,
S2: fully getting swept up. And then, yeah, then it was
S2: like the Epstein bit. I was like, Oh, what? Like
S2: all of us, we were doing so well. So like,
S2: it kind of, yeah, I can see how people have
S2: been sucked in and this is an amazing one to
S2: go into the comment section of the YouTube video. Like
S2: I highly recommend if you're listening to this, pay a
S2: visit there because it's so like that is like there
S2: is the debate like it's all there.
S5: Yeah, it.
S1: Is like a Rorschach test. I feel like whatever your
S1: politics are, there's enough in this song, which isn't really
S1: that long to appeal to you. Like the the very
S1: end of the song is I've been selling my soul,
S1: working all day overtime, hours for bullshit pay. Like, that's
S1: not a right wing trope. That's just a guy in
S1: an era which is very well reported everywhere, that it's
S1: very hard working at the moment. Like, yeah, the.
S3: First verse is a very populist message really. And then
S3: I think it's the second verse that has become the
S3: most contested.
S1: Yeah, yeah. Should we talk about those references? Because they
S1: do feel they feel odd and it might just be
S1: because this song is by an American who's kind of
S1: cooking in the American media ecosystem and where Australians and well,
S1: we're across things like Jeffrey Epstein obviously and you know
S1: concerns from the right that welfare pledges exist, blah blah, blah, whatever.
S1: It felt very specific to talk about these kinds of things.
S1: So he, he talks about how he wishes politicians would
S1: look out for minors and not just minors on an
S1: island somewhere, which feels like an Epstein dog whistle. And
S1: maybe he hasn't really thought it through, but is he
S1: sort of saying stop paying attention to pedophilia happening in
S1: like the Caribbean and look after West Virginians who are
S1: losing their jobs because the coal industry is going out
S1: of business? I couldn't quite figure it out.
S2: Yeah, and I think that's kind of the general take
S2: on it. It's like it's a very weird argument to make.
S2: Like you can always make the argument about the, you know,
S2: the minors within are like without having to. It's just
S2: that he thought, oh, those two words are the same.
S2: So I can like fit, oh.
S1: There's two kinds.
S2: Of miners. And then obviously, you know, there's the whole
S2: like Jeffrey Epstein thing has become so wrapped up in
S2: this movement, too. So it's like it felt like, was
S2: this a weird Easter egg? And then suddenly the tone changes.
S3: Yeah. And also Trump was very connected to Epstein, Right?
S3: So you kind of that would go against the argument
S3: that this is some kind of conservative anthem.
S2: But then I feel like I feel like that lyric
S2: generally people have been like, okay, weird, strange one to include.
S2: But I really feel like especially, you know, given the
S2: state of play in America, the comments about like the
S2: overweight people like Lords, we got folk on the street
S2: and got nothing to eat and the obese milk and welfare,
S2: that's the one that really seemed to like cause this
S2: divide between people because it's like, well, hold on, what
S2: is Olive Anthony trying to do? Which fire is he
S2: trying to stoke? You know, he he has a lyric
S2: about a bag of fudge rounds, which we don't have
S2: in Australia, but they do look delicious.
S1: What are they, like, a sort of cookie or something?
S2: Yeah, cookie with fudge inside them.
S3: Well, there's been a lot of discussion around how you
S3: actually don't buy. And I love the level of like
S3: hyper textual analysis that has gone into this song. You
S3: actually don't buy bags of fudge rounds. You buy boxes.
S3: And a lot of people are using that to say, Well,
S3: this wasn't a song that was written for him.
S5: Because is a loaf of bread. No, he doesn't. An
S5: executive would know.
S3: What it would know that it's boxes.
S5: Ridiculous.
S1: I guess that leads into the broader question of like
S1: what the politics of this song actually are. And as
S1: we've mentioned, the riot and kind of the alt right,
S1: I guess even more so, were very quick to say
S1: this is a white working man's southern Appalachian revolt against
S1: the Washington fat cats represented by Joe Biden. Whatever. The
S1: more I think about the song, the more I listen
S1: to it, the more I look at the reaction to it.
S1: I actually think that was a very maybe smart thing
S1: for these kinds of actors to do to claim this
S1: populist anthem as representing their politics. But I actually think
S1: that's not really the right reading of this song. Like,
S1: I think it is an explicit condemnation of like the
S1: corporate political class. And yet these references to Epstein a
S1: kind of weird and his attacks on, you know people
S1: eating cookies on welfare whatever it's like that's not a
S1: good thing. I'm not trying to defend that. But it's
S1: also like that is wrapped up in a lot of,
S1: you know. Critiques people have of the way the political
S1: system works. And that is a narrative that is pushed
S1: by very big, powerful, compelling media organizations, not just in America,
S1: but in Australia as well, that if you're working class
S1: person who's struggling to make ends meet, the real problem
S1: is governments trying to tax you and spend that money
S1: on welfare cheats. Like that's just been part of political
S1: discourse for a long time. I don't think it is
S1: right to say that everyone who automatically believes that line
S1: is part of like a kind of a far right ecosystem. Though,
S1: like I said, I think it's very smart for the
S1: right to take a song that was always going to
S1: resonate with heaps of working class people and say, If
S1: you like this song, you're actually right wing and that
S1: means you hate Joe Biden and it means you love
S1: Donald Trump. And so I think all of Anthony now
S1: has had to face that discourse and he's had to
S1: come out publicly many times and say, I don't like
S1: Republicans claiming the song. I don't think the left wing
S1: Democrat should try and claim it either. My problem is
S1: the entire system, which also feels pretty like that's a
S1: pretty compelling message. I think most people these days are
S1: not really partisan one way or another. They just don't
S1: like politicians, right?
S3: Yeah, great. I also like how he's spoken about how
S3: he's been offered all these amazing deals and stadium tours
S3: and $8 million record contracts. And he's like, I don't
S3: want any of that. I just want to sing what
S3: I feel. But I do think that is interesting because
S3: the fact that he is ostensibly non-partisan really shows how
S3: the song's been appropriated into the culture wars, which we
S3: see all the time throughout history. And even here. Like
S3: you kind of look at something like Bruce Pascoe's Dark EMU,
S3: a piece of culture, regardless of what it is in itself,
S3: becomes a tool for different sides. So I think his
S3: denial actually not denial, he's kind of statement on it.
S3: It makes the story more interesting in a way, because
S3: then you do look at not so much the song
S3: and what it's saying itself, but how it's being used
S3: by people in.
S2: Interesting to see what happens to him now though, because
S2: post the Republican debate, he was quite firm in being like,
S2: you know definitely I find this funny that you would
S2: try and adopt my song. Like it's making fun of
S2: people like you and I think if there's anything we
S2: know well enough, it's that like as quickly as a
S2: movement like the Conservatives might adopt you, they will like
S2: drop you pretty quickly too, if it feels like you're
S2: no longer, like, helpful to the message. So like, I
S2: feel like all the Anthony has been pretty forthright in
S2: being like, No, I'm dead in the middle. And you know,
S2: the nature of being a viral video star is that
S2: often it doesn't last very long. So it be interesting
S2: to see because I think like his next 2 or
S2: 3 songs are still charted really high on the billboard.
S2: So he's still got like the 15 minutes of fame,
S2: like working for him. But let's see where we are
S2: in like October. November.
S1: Yeah. And it was interesting how quickly some Republicans were
S1: like doing a bit of a reverse milkshake duck on him.
S1: Like there was this clip that went viral of him
S1: being asked about like diversity or migration or something. And
S1: he's like, America is a melting pot. And cultural diversity
S1: like makes us strong. And all these people who a
S1: few days ago had been like, yeah, this guy is
S1: standing up against like, you know, Biden wanting to dilute
S1: American purity and he sucks now. And that was that
S1: was real interesting. I mean, like this this phenomenon of
S1: conservatives claiming the songs that resonate with everyday people is
S1: not new. Right? Like, I feel like Bruce Springsteen's Born
S1: in the USA is his classic song, which is an
S1: indictment on like the political class. Again, like a lot
S1: of Springsteen's music, Republican politicians love using that song. And
S1: I feel like, if anything, what this whole issue is
S1: about and this is not a political podcast is the
S1: culture podcast, but these two things are very wrapped up together.
S1: I feel like this conundrum exists because what so many
S1: regular people feel and think about politics now is really
S1: disconnected from like mainstream political parties. Like a lot of
S1: people do feel like the system's not working and that
S1: doesn't neatly map onto either the Democrats or the Republicans.
S1: It's just a general sense of stuff not working, which
S1: is why people like Donald Trump, who came from outside
S1: the system and Bernie Sanders, etcetera, have had a lot
S1: of success. And so when you try to say this
S1: is a anti elite working class anthem, therefore it means
S1: it is Republican or therefore it means it is Democrat,
S1: it just doesn't really work. So you guys were wondering
S1: whether or not it will be a flash in the
S1: pan kind of thing, like try that in a small
S1: town or whether it. Could have staying power. You know,
S1: he releases an album and whether that ends up being
S1: a big charting success, I feel like that brings us
S1: to the bigger picture conversation about the fact that this
S1: is not happening in isolation. Country music is completely dominating
S1: the charts in the United States, but also here in Australia.
S1: The number one song in Australia a few weeks ago
S1: was Morgan Wallen's.
UU: Last night on You and Me. I know that last
UU: night we live. Top. I can't remember everything we said,
UU: but we said it all. You told me that you
UU: wished I was somebody you never met. A baby.
S1: Baby Luke Holmes's fast car. The cover of Tracy Chapman
S1: song is currently number two in Australia. You get a.
S4: Fast car and I want to take it to.
UU: Anywhere. Maybe we make a deal. Maybe together we can
UU: get somewhere and it places better.
S4: Starting from zero. Got nothing to lose.
S1: Maybe we'll make something in the US. Those two songs
S1: and Richmond, North Richmond make up the top three. Thomas.
S1: Sorry to keep relying on you as like, the longer
S1: term country music guy. From where I sit, it seems
S1: like this has happened pretty quickly, but is there background
S1: to this as it's been happening, bubbling up behind the
S1: scenes for longer than than people like me think it
S1: has been?
S2: Well, yeah, I don't know like it is. I do
S2: think it actually has been pretty rapid. And I think
S2: that's why there is so much like dialogue around it because,
S2: you know, it's probably been the last like 6 to
S2: 12 months that the real crossover like has exploded. Like,
S2: you know, like I said, there's always been like the
S2: country music charts and there's always been the country music
S2: stars and they have the Country Music Awards and it's
S2: just this weird like world that exists. But like people
S2: in the normal world don't really visit it. But I
S2: feel like in the last 12 months, the crossover has
S2: been enormous, like we all know about, you know, the
S2: kind of like, I guess Taylor Swift method of she
S2: started life out as a kind of like a country
S2: pop star. She had her time in Nashville. Some of
S2: her early stuff is like very country esque. And then
S2: she's obviously now the biggest pop star in the world.
S2: But this, like most recent explosion, I think has been
S2: so condensed. Like, you know, I would say like 12
S2: months ago, most people did not know the names Luke
S2: Combs and Morgan Wallen and Zach Bryan. But now, like
S2: we're sitting here doing a country podcast about how it's
S2: exploded in culture. So I do think it's something to
S2: do with. It's hard to put my finger on exactly
S2: why I think it's happened. I suspect it's something to
S2: do with a lot of like, really palatable country stars
S2: of the same like age and like, taste coming up
S2: at the same time. And they've all infiltrated like the mainstream,
S2: just enough to raise the awareness, like just enough. And
S2: then suddenly there's just been these like, breakthrough. You know,
S2: someone like Morgan Wallen especially, he's very much done the
S2: that tried and true country method of like when you're
S2: wanting to tap into the mainstream, you go and get
S2: a mainstream feature. So he's worked with like Diplo and
S2: like different rappers and stuff like that and that's I
S2: think like a lot of country music artists do, is
S2: they'll go and just like Chuck a random, you know,
S2: like pop star on their track, someone like Luke Combs
S2: hasn't really done that. But I think all these different
S2: factors of like come together in perfect harmony.
S1: Yeah, it's like a rising tide lifts all boats sort
S1: of a thing. I asked Aria with the last time
S1: a country song had gone to number one, and it's
S1: actually a really interesting answer because if I asked you
S1: guys would you know what the answer was?
S2: I think I would probably guess someone like Keith Urban. Maybe.
S3: Maybe Taylor Some of early earlier.
S1: Taylor Yeah. So this is a really interesting one. So
S1: what are you. Categorizes as the last number one country
S1: song is Lil Nas X and Billy Ray Cyrus Old
S1: Town wrote in 2018, which spent 13 weeks. And that's
S1: really interesting for two reasons, because I think it was
S1: controversially not classified as country when it was released and
S1: it was this big debate about it. The country music
S1: establishment sort of said, No, this shouldn't be country. And
S1: a lot of people responded and said, Well, why? Like
S1: it has all the hallmarks of a country song, but
S1: because it's like a young queer black guy that is
S1: like rapping more than he's singing. And that's kind of
S1: why Billy Ray Cyrus jumped on. He said that I
S1: think this is a country song. If I'm on it,
S1: that can't say it's not a country song. And I
S1: also think why that's interesting is because I think this
S1: current moment that you encapsulated so well just there, Thomas,
S1: I think you can trace it back to that crossover.
S1: I think that was probably the first time that country vibes,
S1: you know, the kind of banjo, even hearing Billy Ray
S1: Cyrus again became a mainstream popular thing for a generation
S1: that just probably hadn't heard country if they weren't listening
S1: to country radio.
S3: And it's obviously impossible to ignore, like the racialized element
S3: of the fact that they wouldn't classify him as country
S3: and the fact that country music is still dominated by
S3: straight white men and even women like we talk about.
S3: Taylor Swift was pushed out of country in a way
S3: to mainstream pop because I don't think country really accepts
S3: it's still does have a race and woman problem. And
S3: I think Lil Nas X is really interesting because he
S3: did try to cross into that but ultimately couldn't be
S3: part of it.
S1: Yeah. And if you go back to the last number
S1: one before Nas X, you have to go all the
S1: way back to 2008, which was Taylor Swift's love story.
S1: I think what's even more interesting in a way about
S1: the fact that like in the last couple of decades,
S1: it's really only been Taylor Swift and Lil Nas X
S1: is that those two people are very, very different to
S1: Luke Holmes and Morgan Wallen and Oliver Anthony, who are
S1: actually way more traditional. They're not like pop crossovers. They're
S1: two middle aged or like slightly older than, you know,
S1: Taylor Swift was and Lil Nas X was white guys
S1: with guitars singing much more traditional country songs. And that
S1: feels really unique and interesting. And I think it's important
S1: to remember that the context for the last couple of
S1: decades really has been the dominance of pop and hip hop,
S1: which has been largely driven by like women and people
S1: of color. It's a really fascinating turn of events and
S1: like there seems to be a few different like we
S1: talked about the overlap with hip hop. Mel You've sort
S1: of got a bit of a red hot take about
S1: why Morgan Wallen has kind of managed to be so popular.
S1: Do you want to deliver it.
S3: Joshua I mean, I don't think it's a red hot tag.
S3: I think it's a it's quite obvious. No, I mean, okay,
S3: play the opening notes of last night with like last
S3: night we let the liquor talk and then.
S2: Now we let.
S5: The liquor.
S3: So I'm so glad you've done it.
S4: Last night we lit the liquor talk. I can't remember
S4: everything we said, but we said.
S3: And then play the start of, like, the kid laroi
S3: thousand miles. I know that look on your face. I
S3: know the look on your face.
S4: You're coming my way. You're coming my way tonight. Here
S4: goes another mistake I know I'm gonna make. I know
S4: I'm gonna make tonight.
S3: Oh, and tell me that they are not both working
S3: with the same kind of beats. And it's the. The
S3: trap beats of, like, hip hop. Right? And these are
S3: kind of and I was saying to Thomas earlier that
S3: I think like they're kind of post Malone to there's
S3: like something there he's got a bit of the country
S3: and I think they're country crossover and I think they're
S3: kind of Morgan Wallen is like a classic pop club
S3: hit really and not country.
S5: Yeah.
S2: I think I mean hearing you talk about trap beats
S2: is obviously one of my favorite.
S5: Things to get your take.
S2: On trap.
S5: Regularly. No, but I do.
S2: Think you're right. Like I would I as someone who
S2: listens to a lot of this music, I reckon Morgan Wallen,
S2: like Luke Combs, is like bona fide country guy. Morgan
S2: Wallen is definitely like playing the game more. And he's like,
S2: his songs are so much more accessible to like, a
S2: pop friendly crowd. And then he pulls you in. If
S2: you listen to like his latest album, like track by track,
S2: you can kind of pick out like 3 or 4
S2: songs to like, Oh yeah, this is like, you can
S2: play this at CMC Rocks and people will go off,
S2: but other other ones you could play at like the
S2: V Music Awards and they're just like straight up pop bangers.
S2: Whereas I would say Luke Combs is like even, you know,
S2: like aesthetically he looks like such a country dude. And
S2: his songs, he doesn't really do like, you know, the
S2: kind of like tastemaker pop beats and stuff like that.
S1: And it's probably also worth reflecting on the fact that.
S1: Even though Luke Holmes is broadly like quite popular. I'm
S1: not trying to detract from that. The song that took
S1: him to number one is a cover of an extremely
S1: famous song that has been covered a lot faster. So
S1: it's actually quite smart. I think that the country music
S1: industry and these artists in particular have found ways to
S1: embrace this very popular form of music for some parts
S1: of the world. And like country music has always been popular.
S1: What we're talking about is its crossover into the complete
S1: kind of puppy mainstream. And they've done that by, in
S1: the case of Morgan Wallen, collaborating with Diplo, with Lil Durk,
S1: by infusing that kind of trap scent into it. I
S1: know I sort of stitched you up, Mel. I said
S1: to Red Hot Dog, but it's actually very sharp criticism.
S1: Like it is exactly what you.
S3: I'm very urbane.
S2: You know what's so funny, though? Like Luke Combs was
S2: on auditioned for The Voice and they said to him, Oh, no, like,
S2: really good. But like, you don't quite have it. And like,
S2: you know, in these talent shows, like every year they
S2: have like the country guy and like, they'll have like one.
S2: Morgan Wallen was also a season six contestant of The
S2: Voice and like in America went pretty well whatever and
S2: then has become like easily the biggest star the show
S2: has had any show like that probably since like Kelly Clarkson.
S2: But basically they both had like mixed bag experiences on
S2: these talent shows. Luke Combs didn't even get as far
S2: as getting on TV where they recorded his audition. Anyway,
S2: cut to today, he's really popular. The Voice has just
S2: started again here in Australia and I was like watching
S2: a couple of episodes Fuck Me Dead. There are so
S2: many country artists. It's like you can tell already, like
S2: people are going on there and it's no longer like, Oh, okay,
S2: we'll give you the obligatory one country musician that makes
S2: it into the top 12 and he struggles to like adapt.
S2: There was like heaps of them. So you can tell
S2: even from like through the weird like lens of a
S2: talent music show. You can tell how much it's like
S2: seeped through.
S1: Yeah. And that's the thing about the way the music
S1: industry works is success begets like, if not success, then
S1: at least imitators. And I think music labels will be
S1: looking at this, even non country labels and saying, okay,
S1: it's time for us to invest very heavily in finding
S1: the next Oliver Anthony, the next Morgan Wall and the
S1: next Luke Holmes, whatever. I have a question for you
S1: guys in terms of like whether you actually we know
S1: Thomas does, but how much you actually like this kind
S1: of music. And if there are other country artists that
S1: maybe aren't chiding that you have more of a vibe
S1: for metal, I kind of gave you the worst homework
S1: you maybe have ever had to listen to like 5
S1: or 6 different country artists. And I think you're probably.
S1: But even.
S2: Though even the even the worst homework is like the
S2: best day of mill's life, this is the.
S5: Type of analysis.
S3: Yeah. Obviously like completed the the assignment.
S5: I've actually done some extra reading and.
S1: Why I'm the most interested in your opinion on this
S1: because I feel like you're coming to this the coldest, right?
S1: Like just listening to a bunch of different stuff. Like
S1: what do you think were like, what do you think
S1: about Luke Holmes and Morgan Wallen and how does that
S1: compare to maybe some of the other stuff I forced
S1: you to listen to?
S3: Okay. So Morgan, Morgan, I like good, catchy tune, not
S3: super interesting, I don't think musically, but catchy tune. Luke
S3: I'm sorry. Thomas I know he's your main, your main
S3: country bro. I find the music a bit boring and
S3: I don't think I like that kind of. I guess
S3: it is the traditional country style. Same with Oliver Anthony.
S3: Like I've not really enjoyed like.
S2: The the heartbreak and the whiskey and the beer and
S2: the bar.
S5: Stool. Yeah, the big open roads.
S3: But you know, one that Oz did put me on
S3: to Zach Bryan I think is my guy. Zach real talent.
S3: And I loved he did a obviously something in the
S3: orange is his big one that's like.
S5: He's country with an asterix to.
S2: Me I think.
S1: Oh God because he's good.
S5: Yeah. He's like.
S2: He's basically like, man in my like, Seth Cohen phase,
S2: I probably would listen to him and just like vibed out,
S2: he's like barely country.
S3: But his lyrics, I think are really beautiful as well
S3: as his voice. And he did a collaboration with and
S3: I love that he picked this person, Maggie Rogers, a
S3: kind of indie alternative darling. And that Dawn song is
S3: Do you like that song? Was I.
S1: Love It. Yeah.
S3: Yeah. I think he's far a cut above the rest musically, lyrically.
S7: It'll be fine by dusk. But I'm telling you, baby.
S7: These things. Eat at your bones and drive your young
S7: man crazy.
UU: But when you place your hand between my collar and your.
UU: I don't know much. There's no edit all.
S1: Yeah, I am a big Zac Brown head and as
S1: far as country goes, it's probably he's really the only
S1: kind of us country artist that I actually go out
S1: of my way to listen to. And I think an
S1: interesting thing that he's been doing that is also a
S1: maybe underreported part of what's going on. I've been speaking
S1: to a few different industry people over the last few
S1: weeks to sort of ask them their opinion as to
S1: how this started to happen. All of a sudden they say, well,
S1: actually there's been a lot of strategy put in from
S1: country labels to figure out how to make the charts
S1: work for them and copy some of what hip hop
S1: and pop artists have been doing. And that's not the
S1: same thing as kind of borrowing from their sound. It's
S1: actually to do with the structure of songs. So the
S1: way that charts work in both the charts here in
S1: Australia and with the Billboard charts, they're a combination of
S1: actual physical sales, digital download sales. When you buy a
S1: song on iTunes and streams and hip hop artists in
S1: particular have become very good at releasing shorter songs, which
S1: means you play them more, which means those streams count
S1: more and also albums with a lot of songs on them.
S1: So when you play an entire album, you might be
S1: playing like 20, 25, 30 songs, so that boosts your
S1: overall album. Sales and country artists have been slower to
S1: this because most of the country success is still driven
S1: by country radio in the US and the South in particular.
S1: But all of these artists Zach, Bryan, Morgan Wallen, Luke
S1: Holmes are releasing long albums, in some cases 30 track
S1: albums and shorter songs. And even though this is the
S1: most boring part of the conversation about the music, I
S1: think it is a big factor as to why they're
S1: being boosted. And it's worked right because now we're all
S1: talking about country. Other labels will invest in this kind
S1: of a thing. I think this is not the peak.
S1: I think this is probably the start of a pretty
S1: interesting shift in the return of this kind of music.
S1: And the other question I've got for you guys is,
S1: you know, there was a genre that's kind of been
S1: missing in the last ten, 15 years, and it's basically like, dude, rock.
S1: Like it's been very rare for bands or even solo
S1: artists who are just guys with guitar, with drums, like
S1: having big chart success. Does this feel like it's plugging
S1: the gap that's been missing?
S2: Well, I mean, you went to Red Hot Chili Peppers recently, so.
S3: Yeah, don't try and tell me that male white rockers
S3: aren't still a big deal.
S5: This is.
S2: Basically being like, I just think there's not enough.
S5: Dude rock out there. And so.
S1: Well, I've not been the guy complaining about the lack
S1: of it. I've been enjoying the domination of pop and
S1: hip hop. But it is true that there's a big
S1: demographic of people that don't vibe with that stuff and
S1: have been listening to this stuff in the background and
S1: it seems to be coming back.
S3: And it is interesting. Like country music is one of
S3: the last kind of, you know, in not many other
S3: industries are kind of white straight men completely dominating the
S3: field like everything else has opened up. And I guess.
S1: Sorry.
S8: Should.
S1: Go industry by industry and fact checked you on.
S5: That's well at.
S3: Least making an effort whereas the.
S5: White woman.
S3: Is inherent to what country music or some country music
S3: purports to be. And I think it's pretty interesting because
S3: we were talking about Brian and how much we love him.
S3: And you said, Oh, that's country music with an Asterix.
S3: And I actually think there's going to be a pretty
S3: interesting divide between pop country and traditional classic country, which
S3: we did see when hip hop became a thing. There
S3: were all different strains of it. And what is hip hop?
S3: What's not? Because like my understanding is that Zach Bryan
S3: doesn't actually get a lot of country radio airtime in
S3: the US and the country community over there doesn't like him,
S3: and that's maybe why he's picked someone like Maggie Rogers
S3: as a feature to break into the mainstream. So I
S3: think it will be pretty interesting what classic country lovers
S3: will think of its movement into into the mainstream. But
S3: I think.
S2: That that happens a lot. Like I remember even reading
S2: this like New York Times did a big profile on
S2: Luke Combs, like maybe late last year, which is always
S2: the sign that you're you've made it. And they they
S2: kind of asked him about like the fact that the
S2: kind of like really rusted on country crowd in Nashville
S2: and the country fans in America have had like a
S2: kind of lukewarm reception to him because he's still not
S2: quite country enough for them. So like, you know, maybe
S2: it will be this thing that these new wave of
S2: artists that like introduce country to all these people, like,
S2: you know, us who don't really, you know, aren't part
S2: of the culture, they won't be really accepted by the
S2: there'll be a big divide between like the country people
S2: that loved the original stuff and then this new wave
S2: that has kind of redefined what it means.
S1: And I feel like that again to go back to
S1: Oliver Anthony is hard to disentangle from, if not politics,
S1: then at least kind of like social discourse and kind
S1: of conversations around class and gender like I think a
S1: lot of people like that. Luke Combs and I'm not
S1: I'm not actually not having a dig at Utopia. I'm
S1: talking more broadly. A lot of people like the Luke
S1: Combs kind of country because it speaks to them like
S1: it speaks to their experiences being a, you know, a
S1: man or a dad or whatever, like in a regional
S1: area driving your truck around or whatever, and good on them.
S1: They're allowed to have music that speaks. To them and
S1: maybe they see people like Zach Bryan as being too
S1: woke or something, I don't know. But I feel like
S1: there is a layer of that too. It's never just
S1: about the quality of the song or the quality of
S1: the music. Music has never been like that. Like there
S1: is reason why certain kinds of genres appeal to certain
S1: kinds of people, and it may be that country is
S1: now going to be forced to have this conversation, which
S1: it's definitely been being had, but not in mainstream kind
S1: of ways.
S3: Yeah, I think it becomes more problematic when it's like,
S3: you can't do this, someone else can't do this because
S3: I mean, if you look at hip hop and soul
S3: and R&B, like they're not.
S2: Back at.
S5: School. Yeah.
S3: I mean, white artists have used elements of that forever.
S3: And like, the biggest soul singer is probably Adele. And,
S3: you know, that general has become kind of, you know,
S3: mainstream across the board. But I think my concern with
S3: country is when it's, well, no, Lil Nas X can't
S3: count as country because part of that is because he's
S3: black and queer. You know what I mean?
S5: Yeah.
S1: Yeah. And don't forget, the Best Country album ever was
S1: released 23 years ago. Nelly's Country Grammar.
S5: Yes, Correct.
S2: He also not afraid of a country crossover. I think
S2: he and Blake Shelton have done a few songs together. Absolutely. Yeah.
S2: I'm all for that.
S1: Yeah, well, I feel like the things to watch when
S1: it comes to this conversation. One is, you know, how
S1: much staying power will Richmond, north of Richmond, Oliver Anthony,
S1: have if you had to sort of like take a
S1: bet on it, do you think this is a song
S1: or an artist that we'll be talking about come Christmas time,
S1: or do you think this will be a bit of
S1: a fizzle in a few weeks?
S2: Well, I think it's a damn shame what the world's coming.
S5: To for people.
S2: Like me and.
S1: People like.
S5: Me.
S2: People are you Look, I do think, unfortunately for all
S2: of Anthony and his lovely dog, he. He may not
S2: be the next big thing in country music. I think
S2: just just the nature of the debate as as well
S2: will kind of like swallow him up and that on
S2: top of that I've actually I don't know if you
S2: guys have gone and listen to his other songs and
S2: like they're not as good as the Richmond north of Richmond.
S1: No, he's trying to evoke the same sort of vibe,
S1: but just they don't hit in the same way. Yeah, you.
S2: Can't pour your heart out like on ten tracks.
S3: Yeah, I agree. I think he might be more of
S3: a viral hit than a long term artist. And I
S3: think partly that's because I am skeptical about his rise
S3: up the charts. And I do think those right wing influences,
S3: even if it wasn't an orchestrated attempt, I do think
S3: they're responsible for the attention and the curiosity listening as well.
S3: That's happening at the moment. So. Yeah. Sorry, sorry.
S5: Oliver, can I just.
S2: Can we just end with I like to ask you
S2: guys if you had to pick like one kind of
S2: like trope from the country music world that you might
S2: write your debut country music single on, like, what would
S2: it be? Would you go like Broken Heart? Would you
S2: go like a shot of whiskey? Like at the bar,
S2: open roads, like, where are you at?
S3: I reckon I'm going. I'm going with the horse riding.
S3: I'm going.
S5: Oh, my God. Are we such a horse girl?
S3: I'm going the cowboy hat out on the like out
S3: on the land.
S1: One of my favorite songs of all time and is
S1: one of my go to karaoke songs I haven't really
S1: had a chance to mention, even though we're talking about
S1: country music is John Denver's Take Me Home Country Roads
S1: like I love that song. I think it's like the
S1: official unofficial song of West Virginia. It features in like
S1: a lot of films that I really like, including Soderbergh's Logan, Lucky,
S1: where it is like what chain Tenemos daughter ends up
S1: singing at the end of that beauty pageant. So I'm
S1: very partial to that kind of wide open road, like
S1: both evoking a sense of like the grandness and wonder
S1: of nature, but also that road that just takes you
S1: back home. What is home? You know, it's a damn
S1: fine woman. It's a damn fine shot of whiskey.
S3: I reckon we've got similar ideas. I'll get my people
S3: to talk to your your people.
S5: This is. This is the crossover we need.
S3: What, sir?
S5: I would definitely.
S2: Mine would definitely be like. I would opt for the, like,
S2: broken heart drinking alone at the bar. Kind of that's
S2: where that's the best country for me, where it's like,
S2: the only thing I've got left is this shot of
S2: whiskey and.
S3: And do you want it pared back? Like, do you
S3: just want the banjo and your voice and your emotion to.
S5: I would.
S2: Offer both. I would offer like the sad one as
S2: the lead single, and then the B-side would be like
S2: the fun drinking anthem.
S3: I think you've got a you've got a career.
S5: Really thought.
S1: About this. Mel Thomas, thanks a bunch. Maybe to to
S1: sort of end things. Thomas, do you want to sing
S1: us out with a rendition of Last Night?
S9: Lines. Now we'll add the liquor to the draft. Remember
S9: everything we said, but we said it all.
S1: That was brilliant.
S5: Thanks. It's like, Oh, God, I can't believe I did
S5: that again.
S3: I'm so glad you did that.
S1: This episode of The Drop was produced by Cheong. If
S1: you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop, make
S1: sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app. Leave
S1: us a review or better yet, share it with a friend.
S1: I'm Osmond Fergie. See you next week.