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S1: Hey there. I'm Osman Farooqui and this is The Drop,

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S1: a culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age,

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S1: where we dive into the latest in the world of

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S1: pop culture and entertainment. I'm here back with Thomas Mitchell

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S1: and Mel Kambouris. What's up, guys? We're doing good.

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S2: Yeah, just happy to be back. Happy to see. We're

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S2: going to get into it. But country music finally having

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S2: its long overdue moment. So, yeah, I'm excited for this one.

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S3: Yeah, it's been good. I feel like you've been waiting

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S3: for this episode for some time and you've certainly been

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S3: singing a lot in the office, correct?

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S2: So there's so many times you can pitch it and

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S2: then eventually it catches.

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S1: There are very few people in my life when I

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S1: say that. Actually it's literally just you, Thomas, who a genuine,

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S1: I think, aficionados and fans of country music. So the

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S1: kind of events of the last few weeks, months and

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S1: yeah maybe even longer than that we'll get into it

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S1: have made me think about you a lot. It's been

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S1: a pretty interesting ride. So over the last couple of weeks,

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S1: one particular song, a country song that was written and

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S1: recorded by a complete unknown, was released on YouTube, didn't

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S1: have the backing of a major label, and it became

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S1: the biggest song in the world.

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S4: I've been selling my soul. Working all day overtime, hours

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S4: for bullshit pay so I can sit out here and

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S4: waste my life away.

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UU: Drive back home and drown my troubles away.

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S4: It's a damn shame.

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UU: What the world's gotten to for people like me. People

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UU: like you Wish I could just wake up and not

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UU: be true. But it is.

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S1: That song is called Rich Men North of Richmond. It's

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S1: by an artist who performs under the name Oliver Anthony,

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S1: and it's very, very popular. It's also very, very controversial.

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S1: It even popped up at the US Republican presidential debate

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S1: last week and it's been number one on the Billboard

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S1: charts for two weeks now. It's rocketing up the Australian

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S1: Aria charts as well. So it's a good opportunity to

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S1: not just talk about that song, Richmond, north of Richmond,

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S1: and what its success kind of tells us about music

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S1: right now, but also this broader trend of country having

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S1: I don't even think it's a resurgence. It actually is

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S1: probably bigger and more popular in Australia and in the

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S1: US than it probably has ever been, which I think

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S1: is really, really interesting. The number one song in Australia

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S1: right now is a country song. You get a.

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S4: Fast car and I want to tick it.

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UU: To anywhere. Maybe we make a deal, maybe together we can.

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S4: Get somewhere and it places better. Starting from zero got

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S4: nothing to lose. Maybe we'll make something. Me, myself. I

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S4: got nothing to prove.

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S1: In the United States. Top three songs are all country songs,

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S1: and that's never happened before in history. The last time

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S1: there were two country songs in the top two positions

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S1: was back when Dolly Parton released 9 to 5 more

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S1: than 40 years ago. So there's a big, big change

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S1: from the last couple of years, which have been pretty

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S1: pop and hip hop dominated, which we've spoken about on

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S1: this show before. Thomas Before we get into too many

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S1: of the specific things, just as a country guy, are

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S1: you living right now?

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S3: To be fair, let's clarify. You're not from the country.

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S1: So as a country music guy, yeah, In.

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S2: Fact, I'm definitely not from the country. Look, I think

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S2: it's really interesting because I actually found my way into

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S2: country music through my wife, whose family is from the country.

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S2: They're from Dubbo in the central mid-west of New South Wales.

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S1: Oh, that's like proper country territory, a stone's throw from

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S1: the Tamworth Country Music Festival.

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S2: Exactly. And this is why I think country music is

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S2: so great because like, I went into it with the

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S2: same approach that so many people have country music, which

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S2: is like a bit of an eye roll, like it

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S2: exists in a vacuum. People know it's a genre and

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S2: if you're not into it, you're not into it, and

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S2: you don't even kind of like it doesn't even cross

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S2: your radar. But it was like forced upon me on

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S2: the six hour drives to Dubbo when I was like

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S2: questioning the decisions I'd made to marry her etcetera. And

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S2: now I like couldn't like I couldn't be more of

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S2: a country music fan. And I you know, we spoke

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S2: a long time ago when it was announced that Luke

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S2: Combs was touring Australia, one of the fastest selling tours

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S2: of last year. And I pitched him to you and

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S2: you trusted me. But I could tell in your eyes

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S2: you were like, Who is this? What is this story?

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S1: I felt like I was going out on a limb,

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S1: like I was not across Luke Combs. You did a

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S1: very good job of explaining why he was important. And

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S1: to be honest, you were vindicated because it was such

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S1: a big tour. And he's so big.

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S3: Yeah, You were more stressed about getting Luke Luke's tickets

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S3: for his shows here than you were about having a baby,

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S3: I think.

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S2: Yes. And I've never.

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S3: Month I've.

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S2: Never pulled in so many favors to get those tickets. Well, not.

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S1: Just you, but, you know, South Sydney star Latrell Mitchell

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S1: famously loves Luke Combs. Couldn't get tickets. And I think

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S1: he did like a weird press conference where he's like, Please, Sony,

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S1: give me tickets.

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S2: And he goes And lo and behold, he and I

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S2: pulled the same strings. And then my wife went with

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S2: Latrell Mitchell to the concert. She was sitting next to him.

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S2: He she said, like he this is a side we

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S2: can get rid of this like 60 people asked him

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S2: for photos. That's not an.

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S1: Aside any opportunity to talk about rugby league and the

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S1: South Sydney Rabbitohs is a great moment on this podcast.

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S2: Exactly. And so yes, once again it's been proven that

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S2: Latrell and I have the same immaculate taste.

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S3: So before countries kind of rise now into kind of

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S3: across into the mainstream, you were listening to like country

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S3: radio and some of those kind of lesser known country singers.

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S2: No, like a lot of the old school country her

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S2: family is into. But then you very much noticed like,

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S2: you know, country would play at their family get togethers

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S2: and stuff. But then all of the young generation, it's

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S2: all very much like Morgan Wallen, Luke Combs, like they were.

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S2: The first time I heard these guys was like from

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S2: the young members of their like country family. And then

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S2: kind of it's probably in the last like 2 or

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S2: 3 years. And then now all of a sudden, everyone

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S2: I know is like a Luke Combs fan, a Morgan

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S2: Wallen guy, like is obsessed with this movement. And so, yeah,

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S2: here we are.

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S1: And Mel, you're you're a sophisticated, urbane thinking woman.

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S5: Well, I would not call her urbane.

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S3: Thank you so much. I think.

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S1: I don't really know what urbane means. I thought it

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S1: just meant you come from the city, which is my

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S1: understanding of your background. My guess is that maybe a

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S1: bit more like me. You haven't had a sort of

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S1: long term country affinity.

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S3: Yeah, I think that's fair to say. I think country crossover,

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S3: I'm probably, you know, we all listen to that. Shania

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S3: Twain was very big part of my childhood. Kacey Musgraves,

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S3: Carrie Underwood.

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S5: Like, let's.

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S2: Go, girls. Every time we had girls and in the

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S2: WhatsApp stream.

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S3: Absolutely I do, man. I feel like a woman every

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S3: time before I come on the podcast. So I think

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S3: I have like my knowledge of country other than kind

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S3: of the classics, Dixie Chicks, Dolly Parton, Johnny Cash is

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S3: probably more those ones that cross into the commercial, though

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S3: I have to say, I really do like country music

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S3: films like Nashville. Oh Brother, Where Art Thou Walk the

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S3: Line Crazy Heart. Like I have watched a fair few

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S3: country films as well.

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S1: So I think now that we've kind of shared our

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S1: base levels of like knowledge and appreciation of the genre,

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S1: it's a good opportunity to start talking about what the

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S1: hell has been going on in the last few weeks,

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S1: because I think like even if this song Richmond, north

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S1: of Richmond, had not bubbled up, this would still be

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S1: a really fascinating chat just because of these these big hits,

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S1: the Morgan Wallen, the Luke Holmes, everything going on. But

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S1: what this song Oliver Anthony has done is just so

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S1: fascinating and weird that it takes, I think, a little

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S1: bit of unpacking to really to really convey how significant

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S1: and bizarre this kind of moment in music is. It

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S1: deserves its own deep dive. Thomas As not just the

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S1: bigger fan of country, but the only person in my

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S1: life who actually messaged me about this song. I think

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S1: maybe you could help us out here by giving us

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S1: a bit of background to what it is, where it

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S1: came from, and a little bit about its meteoric rise.

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S2: It's worth mentioning that historically country music has often had

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S2: that association with the conservative movement. It's, you know, it's

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S2: often working class songs about people from the land, and

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S2: often those two things align. And, you know, we've had

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S2: a bit of a weird situation where only a few

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S2: months ago, Jason Aldean, another massive country star, had a

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S2: big hit with Try That in a Small Town, which

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S2: was this kind of weird anthem, almost like, you know,

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S2: there was shades of like antebellum in it where it

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S2: was like, don't be bringing those protests to our small town.

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S2: And it became quite a big hit and it flared up.

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S2: This thing that we've seen before in country music where

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S2: it's like, is there this underlying unpleasantness? You know, we've

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S2: talked about people like Morgan Wallen, who has had his own,

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S2: you know, issues in the past with race related incidents.

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S2: And even Luke Combs, who I love, has apologized for

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S2: rocking a Confederate flag in the past. So with all

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S2: of that context, you know, there is this feeling around

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S2: country music that sometimes it belongs to the right.

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S1: Yeah, there's a vibe that country music overlaps with, like

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S1: Confederate right wing Republican sort of stuff.

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S2: Right, Exactly. And they're all kind of like cooking away

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S2: in the same broth, which could be the great name

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S2: for a.

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S1: Country song, a gumbo, even, you know. Yes.

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S2: Anyway, cut to August 8th, 2023, and a song Richmond,

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S2: north of Richmond, is uploaded to YouTube by Oliver Anthony Music,

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S2: which is Oliver Anthony's performing name. Pretty quickly. This song,

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S2: which features a guy with a red beard, his dog

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S2: is next to him. He seems to be standing in

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S2: some kind of lovely outdoor area. He's picking a banjo

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S2: and he's basically singing about the Washington elites who are

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S2: the rich men north of Richmond.

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UU: The Richmond North. Richmond, Lord knows all, just want to

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UU: have total control. Want to know what.

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S4: You think.

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UU: Want to know what you do. And they don't think

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UU: you know. But I know that you do because your

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UU: dollar ain't shit and it's tax to no ten Cause

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UU: the rich man knows the rich man.

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S2: And it's kind of this like rallying cry. He's complaining

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S2: about politicians and taxes and welfare and and there's a

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S2: real struggling working man's kind of vibe. The song blows

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S2: up on YouTube and goes viral, you know, viral in

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S2: the almost the old school YouTube viral way, talking tens

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S2: of millions of views within a few days. It went

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S2: to number one in the US iTunes all genres chart.

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S2: It went to number one on Spotify, US and eventually

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S2: kind of the Holy Grail. It debuted at number one

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S2: on the Billboard Hot 100 chart. He's the first artist

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S2: to ever notch a top single with no prior chart history. Well,

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S2: essentially what happened is, you know, there are a few

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S2: kind of controversial moments in the song. He starts to

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S2: kind of talk about these like, Washington elites, but then

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S2: it feels less like a shot at everyone. And there

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S2: are shades of like he starts talking about overweight people.

226
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S2: He starts talking about welfare cheats. There are some really

227
00:10:58,140 --> 00:11:01,500
S2: weird moments where he seems to reference Jeffrey Epstein's island, where,

228
00:11:01,500 --> 00:11:04,650
S2: you know, talks about minors on an island. And essentially

229
00:11:04,650 --> 00:11:07,770
S2: as the song became bigger and started to blow up online,

230
00:11:07,770 --> 00:11:09,960
S2: you're seeing it on like Instagram and Facebook and TikTok,

231
00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:11,700
S2: and people are kind of like trying to figure out

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00:11:11,700 --> 00:11:14,790
S2: the messaging. And that's where it starts to become this

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S2: strange viral moment, which has been like, I guess, grasped

234
00:11:17,700 --> 00:11:20,310
S2: by the right and they've made it theirs. Now, on

235
00:11:20,309 --> 00:11:22,860
S2: top of that, you've got Anthony as the song has

236
00:11:22,860 --> 00:11:25,200
S2: become bigger coming out and he's basically being forced to

237
00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,360
S2: like declare his position. Where does he stand in all this?

238
00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:29,310
S2: Who is this guy? Is he some kind of like

239
00:11:29,309 --> 00:11:32,820
S2: conservative plant? He releases a video that says he is

240
00:11:32,820 --> 00:11:35,969
S2: politically dead center. And it seems that both sides serve

241
00:11:35,970 --> 00:11:38,160
S2: the same master and that master is not someone of

242
00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,860
S2: any good to the people of the country. However, as

243
00:11:40,860 --> 00:11:44,040
S2: is often the case with any kind of Internet explosion,

244
00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:45,920
S2: people start digging into his past and it seems there

245
00:11:45,929 --> 00:11:48,120
S2: are kind of several moments where perhaps he is that

246
00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:51,270
S2: way inclined. And then as we mentioned earlier, the song

247
00:11:51,270 --> 00:11:54,150
S2: then gets mentioned during the Republican debate. Fox play a

248
00:11:54,150 --> 00:11:57,569
S2: snippet of the surprise chart topper during the debate and

249
00:11:57,570 --> 00:12:00,090
S2: talk about why has this struck such a chord with people.

250
00:12:00,090 --> 00:12:02,430
S2: And and I think Ron DeSantis said, you know, our

251
00:12:02,429 --> 00:12:03,780
S2: country is in decline.

252
00:12:03,780 --> 00:12:07,980
S6: Our country is in decline. This decline is not inevitable.

253
00:12:07,980 --> 00:12:11,370
S6: It's a choice. We need to send Joe Biden back

254
00:12:11,370 --> 00:12:14,550
S6: to his basement and reverse American decline.

255
00:12:15,540 --> 00:12:17,610
S2: The decline is not inevitable, and we need to send

256
00:12:17,610 --> 00:12:20,010
S2: Joe Biden back. And this song speaks to that.

257
00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:25,350
S6: We we also cannot succeed when the Congress spends trillions

258
00:12:25,350 --> 00:12:29,160
S6: and trillions of dollars. Those rich men north of Richmond

259
00:12:29,190 --> 00:12:32,189
S6: have put us in this situation. And finally, we need

260
00:12:32,190 --> 00:12:34,110
S6: to lower your gas prices. We're going to.

261
00:12:34,590 --> 00:12:36,679
S2: Again, Anthony has come out post that and said like,

262
00:12:36,690 --> 00:12:38,490
S2: this is not what the song is about. This is

263
00:12:38,490 --> 00:12:40,679
S2: not what we should be doing with this song. And essentially,

264
00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,290
S2: you've got Richmond, north of Richmond, less than a month ago,

265
00:12:43,290 --> 00:12:46,170
S2: uploaded to YouTube by a no name artist, and all

266
00:12:46,170 --> 00:12:48,840
S2: of a sudden it's become this cultural flashpoint for country

267
00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,179
S2: music at a time when country music is bigger than ever.

268
00:12:51,179 --> 00:12:53,069
S2: And it's making people kind of, I guess, think about

269
00:12:53,070 --> 00:12:55,350
S2: the messaging, think about how we interpret art, but also

270
00:12:55,350 --> 00:12:57,600
S2: like how easily things can be weaponized for the purpose

271
00:12:57,600 --> 00:12:59,309
S2: of cultural wars. It's a really.

272
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S1: Good summary and I think it seems like it's almost

273
00:13:02,730 --> 00:13:07,350
S1: impossible to kind of untangle this song itself. Like its

274
00:13:07,350 --> 00:13:11,100
S1: kind of merits and its popularity from the culture war

275
00:13:11,100 --> 00:13:14,310
S1: around it. Like when I first saw this song, it

276
00:13:14,309 --> 00:13:16,199
S1: wasn't on YouTube. It wasn't sort of someone saying, Hey,

277
00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:17,760
S1: this is a pretty good song. It was on social

278
00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:19,770
S1: media where it was being shared by a lot of

279
00:13:19,770 --> 00:13:23,610
S1: very high profile right wing influencers, people like Matt Walsh,

280
00:13:23,610 --> 00:13:26,580
S1: Jack Posobiec with these big kind of like alt right

281
00:13:26,580 --> 00:13:30,360
S1: guys that have millions and millions of followers on X.com,

282
00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:32,400
S1: which used to be Twitter. And it sort of feels

283
00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,110
S1: like that's a big part of this story as well.

284
00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:36,420
S1: Like even if you separate out and we'll get into it,

285
00:13:36,420 --> 00:13:40,440
S1: whatever Oliver Anthony's kind of politics are, it was latched

286
00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,679
S1: onto so quickly that these guys were sort of pushing

287
00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:45,809
S1: it as a right wing anthem. It was getting boosted

288
00:13:45,809 --> 00:13:50,520
S1: in these social media algorithms and even it reaching number one.

289
00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,910
S1: There's been some theories that perhaps a lot of wealthy

290
00:13:53,910 --> 00:13:58,230
S1: conservatives were buying digital downloads, which count for more on

291
00:13:58,230 --> 00:14:01,410
S1: the charts than just your average Spotify YouTube stream, which

292
00:14:01,410 --> 00:14:04,170
S1: maybe gamed the charts to to send it up to

293
00:14:04,170 --> 00:14:07,110
S1: number one. So it is very hard to sort of

294
00:14:07,110 --> 00:14:09,900
S1: separate out all of these things. We'll try for a

295
00:14:09,900 --> 00:14:13,470
S1: second at least to just talk about the song itself

296
00:14:13,470 --> 00:14:16,980
S1: and why maybe it felt like it struck a chord.

297
00:14:16,980 --> 00:14:20,610
S1: I don't love this kind of music generally, but I

298
00:14:20,610 --> 00:14:23,340
S1: was kind of attracted to the video of just this

299
00:14:23,340 --> 00:14:26,880
S1: kind of regular looking guy singing songs. And yes, we'll

300
00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:30,540
S1: talk about some of those more controversial and frankly, bizarre lyrics. But.

301
00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,160
S1: Pretty broad themes of just being a guy, wanting to

302
00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:38,180
S1: work hard and not have greedy elite politicians kind of

303
00:14:38,180 --> 00:14:41,510
S1: like strip you from what you're trying to do for

304
00:14:41,510 --> 00:14:44,540
S1: your family. And he had a lot of emotion. It's

305
00:14:44,540 --> 00:14:46,730
S1: also catchy. It's got a chorus that kind of gets

306
00:14:46,730 --> 00:14:48,260
S1: stuck in your head. It has all the bits and

307
00:14:48,260 --> 00:14:51,980
S1: pieces to make a song resonate. Whether or not it

308
00:14:51,980 --> 00:14:54,380
S1: would have gone to number one without this big discourse

309
00:14:54,380 --> 00:14:56,239
S1: around it, I am not sure, but I kind of

310
00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:59,420
S1: think the song is pretty good, I guess as far

311
00:14:59,420 --> 00:15:01,430
S1: as country songs go. What are your guys vibes?

312
00:15:01,430 --> 00:15:03,710
S3: Yeah, I mean, the man can sing and I think

313
00:15:03,710 --> 00:15:07,010
S3: it's his passionate delivery that has got so many people

314
00:15:07,010 --> 00:15:10,310
S3: interested in it and watching it and listening to it

315
00:15:10,310 --> 00:15:14,600
S3: because you really do feel feel he's feeling, which I

316
00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:16,880
S3: think is is rare in a lot of music out

317
00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:20,240
S3: there today. I think you can obviously play as well

318
00:15:20,420 --> 00:15:22,580
S3: that comes across. And then there is that kind of

319
00:15:22,580 --> 00:15:26,660
S3: raw authenticity, pared back ness of the video. I agree

320
00:15:26,660 --> 00:15:31,100
S3: with you that the man is obviously talented and yeah, yeah.

321
00:15:31,100 --> 00:15:32,690
S2: I think it's that funny thing where like, you know,

322
00:15:32,690 --> 00:15:34,490
S2: it had all the right elements. It's got this kind

323
00:15:34,490 --> 00:15:37,640
S2: of like very, you know, average Joe looking guy, like

324
00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:39,890
S2: just like heart on the sleeve, like pouring it out.

325
00:15:39,890 --> 00:15:42,630
S2: And he's really like, pinching at the right moment. So

326
00:15:42,650 --> 00:15:45,410
S2: he's like, you know, the man's taxing us. You're working

327
00:15:45,410 --> 00:15:47,780
S2: all day. They want total control. And that's the thing. Like,

328
00:15:47,780 --> 00:15:50,060
S2: I'd seen it and I'd seen it on my Spotify,

329
00:15:50,060 --> 00:15:51,500
S2: Then I made mine text me and he was like, Oh,

330
00:15:51,500 --> 00:15:53,869
S2: I think I loved that right wing song. And I

331
00:15:53,870 --> 00:15:56,330
S2: was like, knew exactly what he was saying. And then like,

332
00:15:56,330 --> 00:15:59,570
S2: I kind of listened to it and I'm like, Fuck yeah, man. Like,

333
00:15:59,570 --> 00:16:02,300
S2: I hate taxing my money. And like, I was, like,

334
00:16:02,300 --> 00:16:03,290
S2: fully swept up. Completely. Yeah.

335
00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:05,660
S1: Thomas. Thomas Every morning Thomas is texting, being like one

336
00:16:05,660 --> 00:16:07,130
S1: of the stage three tax cuts coming.

337
00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:09,410
S2: I've been stressing about them. Definitely didn't have to Google

338
00:16:09,410 --> 00:16:10,070
S2: him after he text me back.

339
00:16:10,070 --> 00:16:11,030
S3: The other day. I mean, you don't hear a lot

340
00:16:11,030 --> 00:16:12,080
S3: of people sing about tax.

341
00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:13,040
S5: Do you know, this is the thing.

342
00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:14,330
S2: And so I'm kind of like he's doing like the

343
00:16:14,540 --> 00:16:17,180
S2: first listen, he's like singing. I'm like vibing it. I'm like,

344
00:16:17,180 --> 00:16:19,340
S2: fully getting swept up. And then, yeah, then it was

345
00:16:19,340 --> 00:16:23,180
S2: like the Epstein bit. I was like, Oh, what? Like

346
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,130
S2: all of us, we were doing so well. So like,

347
00:16:25,130 --> 00:16:26,750
S2: it kind of, yeah, I can see how people have

348
00:16:26,750 --> 00:16:29,000
S2: been sucked in and this is an amazing one to

349
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:31,280
S2: go into the comment section of the YouTube video. Like

350
00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:33,230
S2: I highly recommend if you're listening to this, pay a

351
00:16:33,230 --> 00:16:36,290
S2: visit there because it's so like that is like there

352
00:16:36,290 --> 00:16:37,970
S2: is the debate like it's all there.

353
00:16:37,970 --> 00:16:38,450
S5: Yeah, it.

354
00:16:38,450 --> 00:16:40,670
S1: Is like a Rorschach test. I feel like whatever your

355
00:16:40,670 --> 00:16:43,520
S1: politics are, there's enough in this song, which isn't really

356
00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,850
S1: that long to appeal to you. Like the the very

357
00:16:46,850 --> 00:16:48,950
S1: end of the song is I've been selling my soul,

358
00:16:48,950 --> 00:16:52,550
S1: working all day overtime, hours for bullshit pay. Like, that's

359
00:16:52,550 --> 00:16:56,570
S1: not a right wing trope. That's just a guy in

360
00:16:56,570 --> 00:17:00,920
S1: an era which is very well reported everywhere, that it's

361
00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,470
S1: very hard working at the moment. Like, yeah, the.

362
00:17:03,470 --> 00:17:07,189
S3: First verse is a very populist message really. And then

363
00:17:07,190 --> 00:17:09,709
S3: I think it's the second verse that has become the

364
00:17:09,710 --> 00:17:11,030
S3: most contested.

365
00:17:11,030 --> 00:17:14,420
S1: Yeah, yeah. Should we talk about those references? Because they

366
00:17:14,420 --> 00:17:17,870
S1: do feel they feel odd and it might just be

367
00:17:17,869 --> 00:17:21,320
S1: because this song is by an American who's kind of

368
00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:26,060
S1: cooking in the American media ecosystem and where Australians and well,

369
00:17:26,060 --> 00:17:31,129
S1: we're across things like Jeffrey Epstein obviously and you know

370
00:17:31,790 --> 00:17:35,750
S1: concerns from the right that welfare pledges exist, blah blah, blah, whatever.

371
00:17:35,750 --> 00:17:38,450
S1: It felt very specific to talk about these kinds of things.

372
00:17:38,450 --> 00:17:41,570
S1: So he, he talks about how he wishes politicians would

373
00:17:41,570 --> 00:17:44,720
S1: look out for minors and not just minors on an

374
00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,960
S1: island somewhere, which feels like an Epstein dog whistle. And

375
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:49,909
S1: maybe he hasn't really thought it through, but is he

376
00:17:49,910 --> 00:17:53,780
S1: sort of saying stop paying attention to pedophilia happening in

377
00:17:53,780 --> 00:17:56,780
S1: like the Caribbean and look after West Virginians who are

378
00:17:56,930 --> 00:18:00,320
S1: losing their jobs because the coal industry is going out

379
00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:01,879
S1: of business? I couldn't quite figure it out.

380
00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:03,830
S2: Yeah, and I think that's kind of the general take

381
00:18:03,830 --> 00:18:07,280
S2: on it. It's like it's a very weird argument to make.

382
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,619
S2: Like you can always make the argument about the, you know,

383
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,850
S2: the minors within are like without having to. It's just

384
00:18:13,890 --> 00:18:15,560
S2: that he thought, oh, those two words are the same.

385
00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:16,510
S2: So I can like fit, oh.

386
00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:17,330
S1: There's two kinds.

387
00:18:17,330 --> 00:18:20,060
S2: Of miners. And then obviously, you know, there's the whole

388
00:18:20,060 --> 00:18:23,000
S2: like Jeffrey Epstein thing has become so wrapped up in

389
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,760
S2: this movement, too. So it's like it felt like, was

390
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,550
S2: this a weird Easter egg? And then suddenly the tone changes.

391
00:18:28,550 --> 00:18:31,399
S3: Yeah. And also Trump was very connected to Epstein, Right?

392
00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,310
S3: So you kind of that would go against the argument

393
00:18:34,310 --> 00:18:36,740
S3: that this is some kind of conservative anthem.

394
00:18:36,740 --> 00:18:39,230
S2: But then I feel like I feel like that lyric

395
00:18:39,230 --> 00:18:42,770
S2: generally people have been like, okay, weird, strange one to include.

396
00:18:42,770 --> 00:18:45,290
S2: But I really feel like especially, you know, given the

397
00:18:45,290 --> 00:18:47,990
S2: state of play in America, the comments about like the

398
00:18:47,990 --> 00:18:50,330
S2: overweight people like Lords, we got folk on the street

399
00:18:50,330 --> 00:18:52,460
S2: and got nothing to eat and the obese milk and welfare,

400
00:18:52,460 --> 00:18:55,400
S2: that's the one that really seemed to like cause this

401
00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:57,949
S2: divide between people because it's like, well, hold on, what

402
00:18:57,950 --> 00:19:00,080
S2: is Olive Anthony trying to do? Which fire is he

403
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,210
S2: trying to stoke? You know, he he has a lyric

404
00:19:02,210 --> 00:19:04,369
S2: about a bag of fudge rounds, which we don't have

405
00:19:04,369 --> 00:19:06,020
S2: in Australia, but they do look delicious.

406
00:19:06,290 --> 00:19:08,060
S1: What are they, like, a sort of cookie or something?

407
00:19:08,060 --> 00:19:09,320
S2: Yeah, cookie with fudge inside them.

408
00:19:09,500 --> 00:19:11,209
S3: Well, there's been a lot of discussion around how you

409
00:19:11,210 --> 00:19:13,790
S3: actually don't buy. And I love the level of like

410
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,750
S3: hyper textual analysis that has gone into this song. You

411
00:19:17,750 --> 00:19:20,900
S3: actually don't buy bags of fudge rounds. You buy boxes.

412
00:19:20,900 --> 00:19:22,910
S3: And a lot of people are using that to say, Well,

413
00:19:22,910 --> 00:19:25,310
S3: this wasn't a song that was written for him.

414
00:19:25,550 --> 00:19:27,649
S5: Because is a loaf of bread. No, he doesn't. An

415
00:19:27,650 --> 00:19:29,179
S5: executive would know.

416
00:19:29,330 --> 00:19:30,770
S3: What it would know that it's boxes.

417
00:19:31,170 --> 00:19:31,920
S5: Ridiculous.

418
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,010
S1: I guess that leads into the broader question of like

419
00:19:44,010 --> 00:19:47,700
S1: what the politics of this song actually are. And as

420
00:19:47,700 --> 00:19:50,370
S1: we've mentioned, the riot and kind of the alt right,

421
00:19:50,369 --> 00:19:52,740
S1: I guess even more so, were very quick to say

422
00:19:52,740 --> 00:19:57,870
S1: this is a white working man's southern Appalachian revolt against

423
00:19:57,869 --> 00:20:02,250
S1: the Washington fat cats represented by Joe Biden. Whatever. The

424
00:20:02,250 --> 00:20:03,990
S1: more I think about the song, the more I listen

425
00:20:03,990 --> 00:20:06,570
S1: to it, the more I look at the reaction to it.

426
00:20:06,570 --> 00:20:10,050
S1: I actually think that was a very maybe smart thing

427
00:20:10,250 --> 00:20:13,590
S1: for these kinds of actors to do to claim this

428
00:20:13,590 --> 00:20:18,240
S1: populist anthem as representing their politics. But I actually think

429
00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,330
S1: that's not really the right reading of this song. Like,

430
00:20:21,330 --> 00:20:25,170
S1: I think it is an explicit condemnation of like the

431
00:20:25,170 --> 00:20:28,560
S1: corporate political class. And yet these references to Epstein a

432
00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:32,700
S1: kind of weird and his attacks on, you know people

433
00:20:32,700 --> 00:20:35,940
S1: eating cookies on welfare whatever it's like that's not a

434
00:20:35,940 --> 00:20:38,520
S1: good thing. I'm not trying to defend that. But it's

435
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:42,570
S1: also like that is wrapped up in a lot of,

436
00:20:42,570 --> 00:20:46,340
S1: you know. Critiques people have of the way the political

437
00:20:46,340 --> 00:20:48,979
S1: system works. And that is a narrative that is pushed

438
00:20:48,980 --> 00:20:54,560
S1: by very big, powerful, compelling media organizations, not just in America,

439
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,500
S1: but in Australia as well, that if you're working class

440
00:20:57,500 --> 00:21:00,919
S1: person who's struggling to make ends meet, the real problem

441
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,439
S1: is governments trying to tax you and spend that money

442
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,950
S1: on welfare cheats. Like that's just been part of political

443
00:21:06,950 --> 00:21:09,920
S1: discourse for a long time. I don't think it is

444
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,280
S1: right to say that everyone who automatically believes that line

445
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,880
S1: is part of like a kind of a far right ecosystem. Though,

446
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:18,619
S1: like I said, I think it's very smart for the

447
00:21:18,619 --> 00:21:20,899
S1: right to take a song that was always going to

448
00:21:20,900 --> 00:21:23,240
S1: resonate with heaps of working class people and say, If

449
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:24,919
S1: you like this song, you're actually right wing and that

450
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:26,780
S1: means you hate Joe Biden and it means you love

451
00:21:26,780 --> 00:21:29,480
S1: Donald Trump. And so I think all of Anthony now

452
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,909
S1: has had to face that discourse and he's had to

453
00:21:31,910 --> 00:21:34,550
S1: come out publicly many times and say, I don't like

454
00:21:34,550 --> 00:21:37,160
S1: Republicans claiming the song. I don't think the left wing

455
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,560
S1: Democrat should try and claim it either. My problem is

456
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:43,520
S1: the entire system, which also feels pretty like that's a

457
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:45,679
S1: pretty compelling message. I think most people these days are

458
00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,170
S1: not really partisan one way or another. They just don't

459
00:21:48,170 --> 00:21:49,640
S1: like politicians, right?

460
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:51,590
S3: Yeah, great. I also like how he's spoken about how

461
00:21:51,590 --> 00:21:55,460
S3: he's been offered all these amazing deals and stadium tours

462
00:21:55,460 --> 00:21:57,739
S3: and $8 million record contracts. And he's like, I don't

463
00:21:57,740 --> 00:21:59,390
S3: want any of that. I just want to sing what

464
00:21:59,390 --> 00:22:02,300
S3: I feel. But I do think that is interesting because

465
00:22:02,300 --> 00:22:06,830
S3: the fact that he is ostensibly non-partisan really shows how

466
00:22:06,830 --> 00:22:09,500
S3: the song's been appropriated into the culture wars, which we

467
00:22:09,500 --> 00:22:12,050
S3: see all the time throughout history. And even here. Like

468
00:22:12,050 --> 00:22:14,780
S3: you kind of look at something like Bruce Pascoe's Dark EMU,

469
00:22:14,780 --> 00:22:17,090
S3: a piece of culture, regardless of what it is in itself,

470
00:22:17,090 --> 00:22:20,840
S3: becomes a tool for different sides. So I think his

471
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,780
S3: denial actually not denial, he's kind of statement on it.

472
00:22:23,890 --> 00:22:25,940
S3: It makes the story more interesting in a way, because

473
00:22:25,940 --> 00:22:28,100
S3: then you do look at not so much the song

474
00:22:28,100 --> 00:22:30,320
S3: and what it's saying itself, but how it's being used

475
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:31,399
S3: by people in.

476
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,980
S2: Interesting to see what happens to him now though, because

477
00:22:33,980 --> 00:22:37,460
S2: post the Republican debate, he was quite firm in being like,

478
00:22:37,460 --> 00:22:39,980
S2: you know definitely I find this funny that you would

479
00:22:39,980 --> 00:22:42,679
S2: try and adopt my song. Like it's making fun of

480
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,770
S2: people like you and I think if there's anything we

481
00:22:46,369 --> 00:22:49,010
S2: know well enough, it's that like as quickly as a

482
00:22:49,010 --> 00:22:52,130
S2: movement like the Conservatives might adopt you, they will like

483
00:22:52,130 --> 00:22:54,379
S2: drop you pretty quickly too, if it feels like you're

484
00:22:54,380 --> 00:22:56,899
S2: no longer, like, helpful to the message. So like, I

485
00:22:56,900 --> 00:22:58,969
S2: feel like all the Anthony has been pretty forthright in

486
00:22:58,970 --> 00:23:01,219
S2: being like, No, I'm dead in the middle. And you know,

487
00:23:01,220 --> 00:23:03,530
S2: the nature of being a viral video star is that

488
00:23:03,530 --> 00:23:05,840
S2: often it doesn't last very long. So it be interesting

489
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:07,770
S2: to see because I think like his next 2 or

490
00:23:07,770 --> 00:23:09,919
S2: 3 songs are still charted really high on the billboard.

491
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,080
S2: So he's still got like the 15 minutes of fame,

492
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,090
S2: like working for him. But let's see where we are

493
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:15,260
S2: in like October. November.

494
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,070
S1: Yeah. And it was interesting how quickly some Republicans were

495
00:23:19,070 --> 00:23:22,070
S1: like doing a bit of a reverse milkshake duck on him.

496
00:23:22,070 --> 00:23:23,869
S1: Like there was this clip that went viral of him

497
00:23:23,869 --> 00:23:27,139
S1: being asked about like diversity or migration or something. And

498
00:23:27,140 --> 00:23:29,420
S1: he's like, America is a melting pot. And cultural diversity

499
00:23:29,420 --> 00:23:31,940
S1: like makes us strong. And all these people who a

500
00:23:31,940 --> 00:23:33,710
S1: few days ago had been like, yeah, this guy is

501
00:23:33,710 --> 00:23:36,470
S1: standing up against like, you know, Biden wanting to dilute

502
00:23:36,470 --> 00:23:41,030
S1: American purity and he sucks now. And that was that

503
00:23:41,030 --> 00:23:43,730
S1: was real interesting. I mean, like this this phenomenon of

504
00:23:43,730 --> 00:23:49,580
S1: conservatives claiming the songs that resonate with everyday people is

505
00:23:49,580 --> 00:23:52,760
S1: not new. Right? Like, I feel like Bruce Springsteen's Born

506
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:54,800
S1: in the USA is his classic song, which is an

507
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,740
S1: indictment on like the political class. Again, like a lot

508
00:23:57,740 --> 00:24:00,949
S1: of Springsteen's music, Republican politicians love using that song. And

509
00:24:00,950 --> 00:24:03,290
S1: I feel like, if anything, what this whole issue is

510
00:24:03,290 --> 00:24:05,359
S1: about and this is not a political podcast is the

511
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,449
S1: culture podcast, but these two things are very wrapped up together.

512
00:24:08,450 --> 00:24:13,010
S1: I feel like this conundrum exists because what so many

513
00:24:13,010 --> 00:24:17,060
S1: regular people feel and think about politics now is really

514
00:24:17,060 --> 00:24:20,510
S1: disconnected from like mainstream political parties. Like a lot of

515
00:24:20,510 --> 00:24:23,810
S1: people do feel like the system's not working and that

516
00:24:23,810 --> 00:24:27,440
S1: doesn't neatly map onto either the Democrats or the Republicans.

517
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,110
S1: It's just a general sense of stuff not working, which

518
00:24:30,109 --> 00:24:32,869
S1: is why people like Donald Trump, who came from outside

519
00:24:32,869 --> 00:24:36,110
S1: the system and Bernie Sanders, etcetera, have had a lot

520
00:24:36,109 --> 00:24:38,840
S1: of success. And so when you try to say this

521
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,470
S1: is a anti elite working class anthem, therefore it means

522
00:24:42,470 --> 00:24:45,170
S1: it is Republican or therefore it means it is Democrat,

523
00:24:45,170 --> 00:24:50,190
S1: it just doesn't really work. So you guys were wondering

524
00:24:50,190 --> 00:24:52,859
S1: whether or not it will be a flash in the

525
00:24:52,859 --> 00:24:55,409
S1: pan kind of thing, like try that in a small

526
00:24:55,410 --> 00:24:58,730
S1: town or whether it. Could have staying power. You know,

527
00:24:58,750 --> 00:25:00,940
S1: he releases an album and whether that ends up being

528
00:25:00,940 --> 00:25:03,100
S1: a big charting success, I feel like that brings us

529
00:25:03,100 --> 00:25:06,130
S1: to the bigger picture conversation about the fact that this

530
00:25:06,130 --> 00:25:10,930
S1: is not happening in isolation. Country music is completely dominating

531
00:25:10,930 --> 00:25:15,550
S1: the charts in the United States, but also here in Australia.

532
00:25:15,550 --> 00:25:17,470
S1: The number one song in Australia a few weeks ago

533
00:25:17,470 --> 00:25:18,820
S1: was Morgan Wallen's.

534
00:25:18,820 --> 00:25:22,810
UU: Last night on You and Me. I know that last

535
00:25:22,810 --> 00:25:28,419
UU: night we live. Top. I can't remember everything we said,

536
00:25:28,420 --> 00:25:31,630
UU: but we said it all. You told me that you

537
00:25:31,630 --> 00:25:35,679
UU: wished I was somebody you never met. A baby.

538
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,040
S1: Baby Luke Holmes's fast car. The cover of Tracy Chapman

539
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:43,419
S1: song is currently number two in Australia. You get a.

540
00:25:43,420 --> 00:25:46,570
S4: Fast car and I want to take it to.

541
00:25:46,570 --> 00:25:51,430
UU: Anywhere. Maybe we make a deal. Maybe together we can

542
00:25:51,430 --> 00:25:54,190
UU: get somewhere and it places better.

543
00:25:54,970 --> 00:25:57,449
S4: Starting from zero. Got nothing to lose.

544
00:25:57,460 --> 00:26:00,460
S1: Maybe we'll make something in the US. Those two songs

545
00:26:00,460 --> 00:26:04,959
S1: and Richmond, North Richmond make up the top three. Thomas.

546
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,389
S1: Sorry to keep relying on you as like, the longer

547
00:26:07,390 --> 00:26:10,300
S1: term country music guy. From where I sit, it seems

548
00:26:10,300 --> 00:26:13,060
S1: like this has happened pretty quickly, but is there background

549
00:26:13,060 --> 00:26:15,220
S1: to this as it's been happening, bubbling up behind the

550
00:26:15,220 --> 00:26:18,010
S1: scenes for longer than than people like me think it

551
00:26:18,010 --> 00:26:18,550
S1: has been?

552
00:26:19,060 --> 00:26:21,609
S2: Well, yeah, I don't know like it is. I do

553
00:26:21,609 --> 00:26:24,490
S2: think it actually has been pretty rapid. And I think

554
00:26:24,490 --> 00:26:28,030
S2: that's why there is so much like dialogue around it because,

555
00:26:28,030 --> 00:26:30,730
S2: you know, it's probably been the last like 6 to

556
00:26:30,730 --> 00:26:34,719
S2: 12 months that the real crossover like has exploded. Like,

557
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:35,740
S2: you know, like I said, there's always been like the

558
00:26:35,740 --> 00:26:37,629
S2: country music charts and there's always been the country music

559
00:26:37,630 --> 00:26:39,610
S2: stars and they have the Country Music Awards and it's

560
00:26:39,609 --> 00:26:43,390
S2: just this weird like world that exists. But like people

561
00:26:43,390 --> 00:26:45,790
S2: in the normal world don't really visit it. But I

562
00:26:45,790 --> 00:26:47,530
S2: feel like in the last 12 months, the crossover has

563
00:26:47,530 --> 00:26:50,169
S2: been enormous, like we all know about, you know, the

564
00:26:50,170 --> 00:26:52,960
S2: kind of like, I guess Taylor Swift method of she

565
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,750
S2: started life out as a kind of like a country

566
00:26:55,750 --> 00:26:58,540
S2: pop star. She had her time in Nashville. Some of

567
00:26:58,540 --> 00:27:02,140
S2: her early stuff is like very country esque. And then

568
00:27:02,140 --> 00:27:03,670
S2: she's obviously now the biggest pop star in the world.

569
00:27:03,670 --> 00:27:06,550
S2: But this, like most recent explosion, I think has been

570
00:27:06,550 --> 00:27:09,400
S2: so condensed. Like, you know, I would say like 12

571
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,220
S2: months ago, most people did not know the names Luke

572
00:27:12,220 --> 00:27:15,670
S2: Combs and Morgan Wallen and Zach Bryan. But now, like

573
00:27:15,670 --> 00:27:18,729
S2: we're sitting here doing a country podcast about how it's

574
00:27:18,730 --> 00:27:21,280
S2: exploded in culture. So I do think it's something to

575
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,649
S2: do with. It's hard to put my finger on exactly

576
00:27:23,650 --> 00:27:25,899
S2: why I think it's happened. I suspect it's something to

577
00:27:25,900 --> 00:27:30,400
S2: do with a lot of like, really palatable country stars

578
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,300
S2: of the same like age and like, taste coming up

579
00:27:34,300 --> 00:27:37,810
S2: at the same time. And they've all infiltrated like the mainstream,

580
00:27:37,810 --> 00:27:40,600
S2: just enough to raise the awareness, like just enough. And

581
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,449
S2: then suddenly there's just been these like, breakthrough. You know,

582
00:27:43,450 --> 00:27:46,620
S2: someone like Morgan Wallen especially, he's very much done the

583
00:27:46,869 --> 00:27:49,840
S2: that tried and true country method of like when you're

584
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:51,850
S2: wanting to tap into the mainstream, you go and get

585
00:27:51,850 --> 00:27:56,109
S2: a mainstream feature. So he's worked with like Diplo and

586
00:27:56,109 --> 00:27:58,629
S2: like different rappers and stuff like that and that's I

587
00:27:58,630 --> 00:28:00,310
S2: think like a lot of country music artists do, is

588
00:28:00,310 --> 00:28:02,290
S2: they'll go and just like Chuck a random, you know,

589
00:28:02,290 --> 00:28:05,020
S2: like pop star on their track, someone like Luke Combs

590
00:28:05,020 --> 00:28:06,520
S2: hasn't really done that. But I think all these different

591
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,590
S2: factors of like come together in perfect harmony.

592
00:28:08,590 --> 00:28:11,170
S1: Yeah, it's like a rising tide lifts all boats sort

593
00:28:11,170 --> 00:28:14,230
S1: of a thing. I asked Aria with the last time

594
00:28:14,230 --> 00:28:17,680
S1: a country song had gone to number one, and it's

595
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,399
S1: actually a really interesting answer because if I asked you

596
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,780
S1: guys would you know what the answer was?

597
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:30,149
S2: I think I would probably guess someone like Keith Urban. Maybe.

598
00:28:30,210 --> 00:28:32,640
S3: Maybe Taylor Some of early earlier.

599
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,980
S1: Taylor Yeah. So this is a really interesting one. So

600
00:28:34,980 --> 00:28:37,590
S1: what are you. Categorizes as the last number one country

601
00:28:37,590 --> 00:28:41,040
S1: song is Lil Nas X and Billy Ray Cyrus Old

602
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,310
S1: Town wrote in 2018, which spent 13 weeks. And that's

603
00:28:44,310 --> 00:28:47,370
S1: really interesting for two reasons, because I think it was

604
00:28:47,370 --> 00:28:50,729
S1: controversially not classified as country when it was released and

605
00:28:50,730 --> 00:28:52,980
S1: it was this big debate about it. The country music

606
00:28:52,980 --> 00:28:56,160
S1: establishment sort of said, No, this shouldn't be country. And

607
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,740
S1: a lot of people responded and said, Well, why? Like

608
00:28:58,740 --> 00:29:01,230
S1: it has all the hallmarks of a country song, but

609
00:29:01,230 --> 00:29:04,860
S1: because it's like a young queer black guy that is

610
00:29:04,860 --> 00:29:08,100
S1: like rapping more than he's singing. And that's kind of

611
00:29:08,100 --> 00:29:10,710
S1: why Billy Ray Cyrus jumped on. He said that I

612
00:29:10,710 --> 00:29:12,300
S1: think this is a country song. If I'm on it,

613
00:29:12,300 --> 00:29:14,610
S1: that can't say it's not a country song. And I

614
00:29:14,610 --> 00:29:17,040
S1: also think why that's interesting is because I think this

615
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:21,150
S1: current moment that you encapsulated so well just there, Thomas,

616
00:29:21,150 --> 00:29:23,969
S1: I think you can trace it back to that crossover.

617
00:29:23,970 --> 00:29:27,420
S1: I think that was probably the first time that country vibes,

618
00:29:27,420 --> 00:29:30,270
S1: you know, the kind of banjo, even hearing Billy Ray

619
00:29:30,270 --> 00:29:34,620
S1: Cyrus again became a mainstream popular thing for a generation

620
00:29:34,620 --> 00:29:37,950
S1: that just probably hadn't heard country if they weren't listening

621
00:29:37,980 --> 00:29:39,120
S1: to country radio.

622
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,900
S3: And it's obviously impossible to ignore, like the racialized element

623
00:29:42,900 --> 00:29:45,960
S3: of the fact that they wouldn't classify him as country

624
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,140
S3: and the fact that country music is still dominated by

625
00:29:49,140 --> 00:29:53,280
S3: straight white men and even women like we talk about.

626
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,460
S3: Taylor Swift was pushed out of country in a way

627
00:29:56,460 --> 00:30:00,720
S3: to mainstream pop because I don't think country really accepts

628
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,170
S3: it's still does have a race and woman problem. And

629
00:30:04,170 --> 00:30:06,630
S3: I think Lil Nas X is really interesting because he

630
00:30:06,630 --> 00:30:10,200
S3: did try to cross into that but ultimately couldn't be

631
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:10,880
S3: part of it.

632
00:30:10,890 --> 00:30:14,280
S1: Yeah. And if you go back to the last number

633
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,860
S1: one before Nas X, you have to go all the

634
00:30:16,860 --> 00:30:20,520
S1: way back to 2008, which was Taylor Swift's love story.

635
00:30:20,970 --> 00:30:23,850
S1: I think what's even more interesting in a way about

636
00:30:23,850 --> 00:30:26,130
S1: the fact that like in the last couple of decades,

637
00:30:26,130 --> 00:30:29,460
S1: it's really only been Taylor Swift and Lil Nas X

638
00:30:29,460 --> 00:30:32,910
S1: is that those two people are very, very different to

639
00:30:32,910 --> 00:30:36,120
S1: Luke Holmes and Morgan Wallen and Oliver Anthony, who are

640
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:40,200
S1: actually way more traditional. They're not like pop crossovers. They're

641
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,219
S1: two middle aged or like slightly older than, you know,

642
00:30:44,220 --> 00:30:47,160
S1: Taylor Swift was and Lil Nas X was white guys

643
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:51,750
S1: with guitars singing much more traditional country songs. And that

644
00:30:51,750 --> 00:30:55,920
S1: feels really unique and interesting. And I think it's important

645
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,590
S1: to remember that the context for the last couple of

646
00:30:58,590 --> 00:31:02,910
S1: decades really has been the dominance of pop and hip hop,

647
00:31:02,910 --> 00:31:06,840
S1: which has been largely driven by like women and people

648
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:11,520
S1: of color. It's a really fascinating turn of events and

649
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,209
S1: like there seems to be a few different like we

650
00:31:15,210 --> 00:31:18,150
S1: talked about the overlap with hip hop. Mel You've sort

651
00:31:18,150 --> 00:31:20,430
S1: of got a bit of a red hot take about

652
00:31:20,730 --> 00:31:24,540
S1: why Morgan Wallen has kind of managed to be so popular.

653
00:31:24,540 --> 00:31:25,410
S1: Do you want to deliver it.

654
00:31:25,740 --> 00:31:27,980
S3: Joshua I mean, I don't think it's a red hot tag.

655
00:31:27,980 --> 00:31:31,310
S3: I think it's a it's quite obvious. No, I mean, okay,

656
00:31:31,310 --> 00:31:34,190
S3: play the opening notes of last night with like last

657
00:31:34,190 --> 00:31:35,540
S3: night we let the liquor talk and then.

658
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:37,250
S2: Now we let.

659
00:31:37,250 --> 00:31:38,000
S5: The liquor.

660
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:39,950
S3: So I'm so glad you've done it.

661
00:31:40,730 --> 00:31:45,560
S4: Last night we lit the liquor talk. I can't remember

662
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,910
S4: everything we said, but we said.

663
00:31:48,380 --> 00:31:50,480
S3: And then play the start of, like, the kid laroi

664
00:31:50,530 --> 00:31:54,500
S3: thousand miles. I know that look on your face. I

665
00:31:54,500 --> 00:31:56,540
S3: know the look on your face.

666
00:31:56,540 --> 00:32:00,170
S4: You're coming my way. You're coming my way tonight. Here

667
00:32:00,170 --> 00:32:03,950
S4: goes another mistake I know I'm gonna make. I know

668
00:32:03,950 --> 00:32:05,360
S4: I'm gonna make tonight.

669
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,960
S3: Oh, and tell me that they are not both working

670
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,420
S3: with the same kind of beats. And it's the. The

671
00:32:11,420 --> 00:32:14,209
S3: trap beats of, like, hip hop. Right? And these are

672
00:32:14,210 --> 00:32:15,890
S3: kind of and I was saying to Thomas earlier that

673
00:32:15,890 --> 00:32:19,040
S3: I think like they're kind of post Malone to there's

674
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:20,810
S3: like something there he's got a bit of the country

675
00:32:20,810 --> 00:32:23,000
S3: and I think they're country crossover and I think they're

676
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,570
S3: kind of Morgan Wallen is like a classic pop club

677
00:32:26,580 --> 00:32:29,280
S3: hit really and not country.

678
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:29,730
S5: Yeah.

679
00:32:29,730 --> 00:32:32,460
S2: I think I mean hearing you talk about trap beats

680
00:32:32,460 --> 00:32:33,420
S2: is obviously one of my favorite.

681
00:32:33,420 --> 00:32:34,950
S5: Things to get your take.

682
00:32:34,950 --> 00:32:35,490
S2: On trap.

683
00:32:35,490 --> 00:32:37,170
S5: Regularly. No, but I do.

684
00:32:37,170 --> 00:32:39,959
S2: Think you're right. Like I would I as someone who

685
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,750
S2: listens to a lot of this music, I reckon Morgan Wallen,

686
00:32:42,750 --> 00:32:46,560
S2: like Luke Combs, is like bona fide country guy. Morgan

687
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,130
S2: Wallen is definitely like playing the game more. And he's like,

688
00:32:50,610 --> 00:32:53,250
S2: his songs are so much more accessible to like, a

689
00:32:53,250 --> 00:32:56,400
S2: pop friendly crowd. And then he pulls you in. If

690
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,610
S2: you listen to like his latest album, like track by track,

691
00:32:59,610 --> 00:33:01,350
S2: you can kind of pick out like 3 or 4

692
00:33:01,350 --> 00:33:03,060
S2: songs to like, Oh yeah, this is like, you can

693
00:33:03,060 --> 00:33:05,700
S2: play this at CMC Rocks and people will go off,

694
00:33:05,730 --> 00:33:07,260
S2: but other other ones you could play at like the

695
00:33:07,260 --> 00:33:09,630
S2: V Music Awards and they're just like straight up pop bangers.

696
00:33:09,630 --> 00:33:12,390
S2: Whereas I would say Luke Combs is like even, you know,

697
00:33:12,390 --> 00:33:16,560
S2: like aesthetically he looks like such a country dude. And

698
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,830
S2: his songs, he doesn't really do like, you know, the

699
00:33:19,830 --> 00:33:22,170
S2: kind of like tastemaker pop beats and stuff like that.

700
00:33:22,170 --> 00:33:24,210
S1: And it's probably also worth reflecting on the fact that.

701
00:33:24,210 --> 00:33:26,400
S1: Even though Luke Holmes is broadly like quite popular. I'm

702
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,590
S1: not trying to detract from that. The song that took

703
00:33:28,590 --> 00:33:32,250
S1: him to number one is a cover of an extremely

704
00:33:32,250 --> 00:33:34,920
S1: famous song that has been covered a lot faster. So

705
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,620
S1: it's actually quite smart. I think that the country music

706
00:33:37,620 --> 00:33:40,260
S1: industry and these artists in particular have found ways to

707
00:33:40,260 --> 00:33:43,830
S1: embrace this very popular form of music for some parts

708
00:33:43,830 --> 00:33:46,980
S1: of the world. And like country music has always been popular.

709
00:33:46,980 --> 00:33:49,890
S1: What we're talking about is its crossover into the complete

710
00:33:49,890 --> 00:33:52,560
S1: kind of puppy mainstream. And they've done that by, in

711
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,650
S1: the case of Morgan Wallen, collaborating with Diplo, with Lil Durk,

712
00:33:55,650 --> 00:33:58,350
S1: by infusing that kind of trap scent into it. I

713
00:33:58,350 --> 00:34:00,030
S1: know I sort of stitched you up, Mel. I said

714
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,940
S1: to Red Hot Dog, but it's actually very sharp criticism.

715
00:34:02,940 --> 00:34:04,210
S1: Like it is exactly what you.

716
00:34:04,230 --> 00:34:05,130
S3: I'm very urbane.

717
00:34:05,490 --> 00:34:09,030
S2: You know what's so funny, though? Like Luke Combs was

718
00:34:09,030 --> 00:34:14,460
S2: on auditioned for The Voice and they said to him, Oh, no, like,

719
00:34:14,460 --> 00:34:16,500
S2: really good. But like, you don't quite have it. And like,

720
00:34:16,500 --> 00:34:18,330
S2: you know, in these talent shows, like every year they

721
00:34:18,330 --> 00:34:21,750
S2: have like the country guy and like, they'll have like one.

722
00:34:21,750 --> 00:34:25,020
S2: Morgan Wallen was also a season six contestant of The

723
00:34:25,020 --> 00:34:27,900
S2: Voice and like in America went pretty well whatever and

724
00:34:27,900 --> 00:34:30,810
S2: then has become like easily the biggest star the show

725
00:34:30,810 --> 00:34:33,120
S2: has had any show like that probably since like Kelly Clarkson.

726
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,030
S2: But basically they both had like mixed bag experiences on

727
00:34:36,030 --> 00:34:37,830
S2: these talent shows. Luke Combs didn't even get as far

728
00:34:37,830 --> 00:34:41,310
S2: as getting on TV where they recorded his audition. Anyway,

729
00:34:41,310 --> 00:34:43,859
S2: cut to today, he's really popular. The Voice has just

730
00:34:43,860 --> 00:34:46,740
S2: started again here in Australia and I was like watching

731
00:34:46,739 --> 00:34:48,600
S2: a couple of episodes Fuck Me Dead. There are so

732
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,390
S2: many country artists. It's like you can tell already, like

733
00:34:51,390 --> 00:34:54,029
S2: people are going on there and it's no longer like, Oh, okay,

734
00:34:54,030 --> 00:34:56,430
S2: we'll give you the obligatory one country musician that makes

735
00:34:56,430 --> 00:34:59,219
S2: it into the top 12 and he struggles to like adapt.

736
00:34:59,219 --> 00:35:01,170
S2: There was like heaps of them. So you can tell

737
00:35:01,170 --> 00:35:03,210
S2: even from like through the weird like lens of a

738
00:35:03,210 --> 00:35:05,509
S2: talent music show. You can tell how much it's like

739
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:06,360
S2: seeped through.

740
00:35:06,780 --> 00:35:08,460
S1: Yeah. And that's the thing about the way the music

741
00:35:08,460 --> 00:35:12,180
S1: industry works is success begets like, if not success, then

742
00:35:12,180 --> 00:35:14,490
S1: at least imitators. And I think music labels will be

743
00:35:14,489 --> 00:35:17,130
S1: looking at this, even non country labels and saying, okay,

744
00:35:17,130 --> 00:35:20,850
S1: it's time for us to invest very heavily in finding

745
00:35:20,850 --> 00:35:24,210
S1: the next Oliver Anthony, the next Morgan Wall and the

746
00:35:24,210 --> 00:35:27,390
S1: next Luke Holmes, whatever. I have a question for you

747
00:35:27,390 --> 00:35:30,150
S1: guys in terms of like whether you actually we know

748
00:35:30,150 --> 00:35:33,419
S1: Thomas does, but how much you actually like this kind

749
00:35:33,420 --> 00:35:36,690
S1: of music. And if there are other country artists that

750
00:35:36,690 --> 00:35:39,720
S1: maybe aren't chiding that you have more of a vibe

751
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,230
S1: for metal, I kind of gave you the worst homework

752
00:35:43,230 --> 00:35:45,000
S1: you maybe have ever had to listen to like 5

753
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,850
S1: or 6 different country artists. And I think you're probably.

754
00:35:47,850 --> 00:35:48,120
S1: But even.

755
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,400
S2: Though even the even the worst homework is like the

756
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:51,810
S2: best day of mill's life, this is the.

757
00:35:52,110 --> 00:35:52,960
S5: Type of analysis.

758
00:35:53,190 --> 00:35:56,460
S3: Yeah. Obviously like completed the the assignment.

759
00:35:56,460 --> 00:35:57,989
S5: I've actually done some extra reading and.

760
00:35:58,469 --> 00:36:00,540
S1: Why I'm the most interested in your opinion on this

761
00:36:00,540 --> 00:36:03,180
S1: because I feel like you're coming to this the coldest, right?

762
00:36:03,180 --> 00:36:05,669
S1: Like just listening to a bunch of different stuff. Like

763
00:36:05,670 --> 00:36:08,100
S1: what do you think were like, what do you think

764
00:36:08,100 --> 00:36:11,160
S1: about Luke Holmes and Morgan Wallen and how does that

765
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,260
S1: compare to maybe some of the other stuff I forced

766
00:36:13,260 --> 00:36:14,610
S1: you to listen to?

767
00:36:14,969 --> 00:36:20,790
S3: Okay. So Morgan, Morgan, I like good, catchy tune, not

768
00:36:20,790 --> 00:36:25,290
S3: super interesting, I don't think musically, but catchy tune. Luke

769
00:36:25,500 --> 00:36:27,660
S3: I'm sorry. Thomas I know he's your main, your main

770
00:36:27,660 --> 00:36:31,640
S3: country bro. I find the music a bit boring and

771
00:36:31,739 --> 00:36:33,989
S3: I don't think I like that kind of. I guess

772
00:36:33,989 --> 00:36:38,100
S3: it is the traditional country style. Same with Oliver Anthony.

773
00:36:38,100 --> 00:36:39,400
S3: Like I've not really enjoyed like.

774
00:36:39,420 --> 00:36:42,029
S2: The the heartbreak and the whiskey and the beer and

775
00:36:42,030 --> 00:36:42,330
S2: the bar.

776
00:36:42,330 --> 00:36:43,800
S5: Stool. Yeah, the big open roads.

777
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:45,630
S3: But you know, one that Oz did put me on

778
00:36:45,630 --> 00:36:49,980
S3: to Zach Bryan I think is my guy. Zach real talent.

779
00:36:49,980 --> 00:36:52,890
S3: And I loved he did a obviously something in the

780
00:36:52,890 --> 00:36:55,320
S3: orange is his big one that's like.

781
00:36:55,350 --> 00:36:56,670
S5: He's country with an asterix to.

782
00:36:56,670 --> 00:36:57,450
S2: Me I think.

783
00:36:57,450 --> 00:36:58,920
S1: Oh God because he's good.

784
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:00,660
S5: Yeah. He's like.

785
00:37:01,110 --> 00:37:04,919
S2: He's basically like, man in my like, Seth Cohen phase,

786
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:06,629
S2: I probably would listen to him and just like vibed out,

787
00:37:06,630 --> 00:37:08,190
S2: he's like barely country.

788
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,129
S3: But his lyrics, I think are really beautiful as well

789
00:37:11,130 --> 00:37:13,200
S3: as his voice. And he did a collaboration with and

790
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,210
S3: I love that he picked this person, Maggie Rogers, a

791
00:37:15,210 --> 00:37:19,140
S3: kind of indie alternative darling. And that Dawn song is

792
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:20,549
S3: Do you like that song? Was I.

793
00:37:20,550 --> 00:37:21,299
S1: Love It. Yeah.

794
00:37:21,390 --> 00:37:26,550
S3: Yeah. I think he's far a cut above the rest musically, lyrically.

795
00:37:31,820 --> 00:37:36,050
S7: It'll be fine by dusk. But I'm telling you, baby.

796
00:37:38,510 --> 00:37:42,380
S7: These things. Eat at your bones and drive your young

797
00:37:42,380 --> 00:37:43,730
S7: man crazy.

798
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:51,069
UU: But when you place your hand between my collar and your.

799
00:37:54,340 --> 00:37:57,880
UU: I don't know much. There's no edit all.

800
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:04,100
S1: Yeah, I am a big Zac Brown head and as

801
00:38:04,100 --> 00:38:06,200
S1: far as country goes, it's probably he's really the only

802
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,750
S1: kind of us country artist that I actually go out

803
00:38:08,750 --> 00:38:10,819
S1: of my way to listen to. And I think an

804
00:38:10,820 --> 00:38:14,210
S1: interesting thing that he's been doing that is also a

805
00:38:14,210 --> 00:38:17,420
S1: maybe underreported part of what's going on. I've been speaking

806
00:38:17,420 --> 00:38:20,810
S1: to a few different industry people over the last few

807
00:38:20,810 --> 00:38:23,960
S1: weeks to sort of ask them their opinion as to

808
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,150
S1: how this started to happen. All of a sudden they say, well,

809
00:38:26,150 --> 00:38:29,150
S1: actually there's been a lot of strategy put in from

810
00:38:29,150 --> 00:38:32,660
S1: country labels to figure out how to make the charts

811
00:38:32,660 --> 00:38:35,750
S1: work for them and copy some of what hip hop

812
00:38:35,750 --> 00:38:38,000
S1: and pop artists have been doing. And that's not the

813
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,250
S1: same thing as kind of borrowing from their sound. It's

814
00:38:40,250 --> 00:38:42,529
S1: actually to do with the structure of songs. So the

815
00:38:42,530 --> 00:38:44,779
S1: way that charts work in both the charts here in

816
00:38:44,780 --> 00:38:47,089
S1: Australia and with the Billboard charts, they're a combination of

817
00:38:47,090 --> 00:38:50,540
S1: actual physical sales, digital download sales. When you buy a

818
00:38:50,540 --> 00:38:54,799
S1: song on iTunes and streams and hip hop artists in

819
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:59,419
S1: particular have become very good at releasing shorter songs, which

820
00:38:59,420 --> 00:39:01,669
S1: means you play them more, which means those streams count

821
00:39:01,670 --> 00:39:04,790
S1: more and also albums with a lot of songs on them.

822
00:39:04,790 --> 00:39:07,580
S1: So when you play an entire album, you might be

823
00:39:07,580 --> 00:39:12,109
S1: playing like 20, 25, 30 songs, so that boosts your

824
00:39:12,110 --> 00:39:15,170
S1: overall album. Sales and country artists have been slower to

825
00:39:15,170 --> 00:39:19,340
S1: this because most of the country success is still driven

826
00:39:19,340 --> 00:39:22,580
S1: by country radio in the US and the South in particular.

827
00:39:22,580 --> 00:39:25,180
S1: But all of these artists Zach, Bryan, Morgan Wallen, Luke

828
00:39:25,190 --> 00:39:28,640
S1: Holmes are releasing long albums, in some cases 30 track

829
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,400
S1: albums and shorter songs. And even though this is the

830
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,730
S1: most boring part of the conversation about the music, I

831
00:39:34,730 --> 00:39:36,919
S1: think it is a big factor as to why they're

832
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,410
S1: being boosted. And it's worked right because now we're all

833
00:39:39,410 --> 00:39:41,960
S1: talking about country. Other labels will invest in this kind

834
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,299
S1: of a thing. I think this is not the peak.

835
00:39:44,300 --> 00:39:46,669
S1: I think this is probably the start of a pretty

836
00:39:46,670 --> 00:39:49,550
S1: interesting shift in the return of this kind of music.

837
00:39:49,550 --> 00:39:52,310
S1: And the other question I've got for you guys is,

838
00:39:52,670 --> 00:39:55,130
S1: you know, there was a genre that's kind of been

839
00:39:55,130 --> 00:39:59,210
S1: missing in the last ten, 15 years, and it's basically like, dude, rock.

840
00:39:59,210 --> 00:40:03,260
S1: Like it's been very rare for bands or even solo

841
00:40:03,260 --> 00:40:06,740
S1: artists who are just guys with guitar, with drums, like

842
00:40:06,739 --> 00:40:11,989
S1: having big chart success. Does this feel like it's plugging

843
00:40:11,989 --> 00:40:13,310
S1: the gap that's been missing?

844
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:15,980
S2: Well, I mean, you went to Red Hot Chili Peppers recently, so.

845
00:40:15,980 --> 00:40:19,069
S3: Yeah, don't try and tell me that male white rockers

846
00:40:19,070 --> 00:40:20,840
S3: aren't still a big deal.

847
00:40:21,950 --> 00:40:22,220
S5: This is.

848
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,710
S2: Basically being like, I just think there's not enough.

849
00:40:24,710 --> 00:40:26,630
S5: Dude rock out there. And so.

850
00:40:27,140 --> 00:40:29,149
S1: Well, I've not been the guy complaining about the lack

851
00:40:29,150 --> 00:40:31,460
S1: of it. I've been enjoying the domination of pop and

852
00:40:31,460 --> 00:40:33,290
S1: hip hop. But it is true that there's a big

853
00:40:33,290 --> 00:40:35,689
S1: demographic of people that don't vibe with that stuff and

854
00:40:35,690 --> 00:40:37,430
S1: have been listening to this stuff in the background and

855
00:40:37,430 --> 00:40:38,600
S1: it seems to be coming back.

856
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,660
S3: And it is interesting. Like country music is one of

857
00:40:41,660 --> 00:40:44,660
S3: the last kind of, you know, in not many other

858
00:40:44,660 --> 00:40:50,390
S3: industries are kind of white straight men completely dominating the

859
00:40:50,390 --> 00:40:53,060
S3: field like everything else has opened up. And I guess.

860
00:40:53,390 --> 00:40:53,839
S1: Sorry.

861
00:40:54,650 --> 00:40:54,860
S8: Should.

862
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:57,560
S1: Go industry by industry and fact checked you on.

863
00:40:58,930 --> 00:40:59,900
S5: That's well at.

864
00:40:59,900 --> 00:41:01,610
S3: Least making an effort whereas the.

865
00:41:01,650 --> 00:41:02,540
S5: White woman.

866
00:41:03,230 --> 00:41:06,590
S3: Is inherent to what country music or some country music

867
00:41:06,590 --> 00:41:08,720
S3: purports to be. And I think it's pretty interesting because

868
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:10,790
S3: we were talking about Brian and how much we love him.

869
00:41:10,790 --> 00:41:12,830
S3: And you said, Oh, that's country music with an Asterix.

870
00:41:12,830 --> 00:41:14,569
S3: And I actually think there's going to be a pretty

871
00:41:14,570 --> 00:41:19,489
S3: interesting divide between pop country and traditional classic country, which

872
00:41:19,489 --> 00:41:21,950
S3: we did see when hip hop became a thing. There

873
00:41:21,950 --> 00:41:23,989
S3: were all different strains of it. And what is hip hop?

874
00:41:23,989 --> 00:41:26,480
S3: What's not? Because like my understanding is that Zach Bryan

875
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,540
S3: doesn't actually get a lot of country radio airtime in

876
00:41:29,540 --> 00:41:31,969
S3: the US and the country community over there doesn't like him,

877
00:41:31,969 --> 00:41:34,370
S3: and that's maybe why he's picked someone like Maggie Rogers

878
00:41:34,370 --> 00:41:36,739
S3: as a feature to break into the mainstream. So I

879
00:41:36,739 --> 00:41:39,739
S3: think it will be pretty interesting what classic country lovers

880
00:41:39,739 --> 00:41:43,040
S3: will think of its movement into into the mainstream. But

881
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:43,279
S3: I think.

882
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,259
S2: That that happens a lot. Like I remember even reading

883
00:41:45,410 --> 00:41:47,510
S2: this like New York Times did a big profile on

884
00:41:47,510 --> 00:41:50,180
S2: Luke Combs, like maybe late last year, which is always

885
00:41:50,180 --> 00:41:53,359
S2: the sign that you're you've made it. And they they

886
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,910
S2: kind of asked him about like the fact that the

887
00:41:55,910 --> 00:41:59,930
S2: kind of like really rusted on country crowd in Nashville

888
00:41:59,930 --> 00:42:02,450
S2: and the country fans in America have had like a

889
00:42:02,450 --> 00:42:05,000
S2: kind of lukewarm reception to him because he's still not

890
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,640
S2: quite country enough for them. So like, you know, maybe

891
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:09,290
S2: it will be this thing that these new wave of

892
00:42:09,290 --> 00:42:12,290
S2: artists that like introduce country to all these people, like,

893
00:42:12,290 --> 00:42:15,050
S2: you know, us who don't really, you know, aren't part

894
00:42:15,050 --> 00:42:17,569
S2: of the culture, they won't be really accepted by the

895
00:42:17,950 --> 00:42:20,840
S2: there'll be a big divide between like the country people

896
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:23,390
S2: that loved the original stuff and then this new wave

897
00:42:23,390 --> 00:42:25,549
S2: that has kind of redefined what it means.

898
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,130
S1: And I feel like that again to go back to

899
00:42:28,130 --> 00:42:32,570
S1: Oliver Anthony is hard to disentangle from, if not politics,

900
00:42:32,570 --> 00:42:35,210
S1: then at least kind of like social discourse and kind

901
00:42:35,210 --> 00:42:38,180
S1: of conversations around class and gender like I think a

902
00:42:38,180 --> 00:42:42,260
S1: lot of people like that. Luke Combs and I'm not

903
00:42:42,260 --> 00:42:43,760
S1: I'm not actually not having a dig at Utopia. I'm

904
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,130
S1: talking more broadly. A lot of people like the Luke

905
00:42:46,130 --> 00:42:48,439
S1: Combs kind of country because it speaks to them like

906
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,890
S1: it speaks to their experiences being a, you know, a

907
00:42:51,890 --> 00:42:55,759
S1: man or a dad or whatever, like in a regional

908
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,370
S1: area driving your truck around or whatever, and good on them.

909
00:42:58,370 --> 00:43:00,510
S1: They're allowed to have music that speaks. To them and

910
00:43:00,510 --> 00:43:04,890
S1: maybe they see people like Zach Bryan as being too

911
00:43:04,890 --> 00:43:06,899
S1: woke or something, I don't know. But I feel like

912
00:43:06,900 --> 00:43:09,629
S1: there is a layer of that too. It's never just

913
00:43:09,630 --> 00:43:12,210
S1: about the quality of the song or the quality of

914
00:43:12,210 --> 00:43:14,370
S1: the music. Music has never been like that. Like there

915
00:43:14,370 --> 00:43:17,580
S1: is reason why certain kinds of genres appeal to certain

916
00:43:17,580 --> 00:43:19,920
S1: kinds of people, and it may be that country is

917
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:23,819
S1: now going to be forced to have this conversation, which

918
00:43:23,820 --> 00:43:28,410
S1: it's definitely been being had, but not in mainstream kind

919
00:43:28,410 --> 00:43:29,160
S1: of ways.

920
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,800
S3: Yeah, I think it becomes more problematic when it's like,

921
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:35,070
S3: you can't do this, someone else can't do this because

922
00:43:35,250 --> 00:43:37,890
S3: I mean, if you look at hip hop and soul

923
00:43:37,890 --> 00:43:39,239
S3: and R&B, like they're not.

924
00:43:39,390 --> 00:43:39,630
S2: Back at.

925
00:43:39,810 --> 00:43:40,780
S5: School. Yeah.

926
00:43:41,850 --> 00:43:46,320
S3: I mean, white artists have used elements of that forever.

927
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:48,719
S3: And like, the biggest soul singer is probably Adele. And,

928
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:53,400
S3: you know, that general has become kind of, you know,

929
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,450
S3: mainstream across the board. But I think my concern with

930
00:43:57,450 --> 00:44:00,450
S3: country is when it's, well, no, Lil Nas X can't

931
00:44:00,450 --> 00:44:04,410
S3: count as country because part of that is because he's

932
00:44:04,410 --> 00:44:06,360
S3: black and queer. You know what I mean?

933
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:06,900
S5: Yeah.

934
00:44:06,900 --> 00:44:09,239
S1: Yeah. And don't forget, the Best Country album ever was

935
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:12,510
S1: released 23 years ago. Nelly's Country Grammar.

936
00:44:12,510 --> 00:44:13,470
S5: Yes, Correct.

937
00:44:13,469 --> 00:44:15,690
S2: He also not afraid of a country crossover. I think

938
00:44:15,690 --> 00:44:19,080
S2: he and Blake Shelton have done a few songs together. Absolutely. Yeah.

939
00:44:19,260 --> 00:44:20,280
S2: I'm all for that.

940
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,550
S1: Yeah, well, I feel like the things to watch when

941
00:44:23,550 --> 00:44:26,940
S1: it comes to this conversation. One is, you know, how

942
00:44:26,940 --> 00:44:31,140
S1: much staying power will Richmond, north of Richmond, Oliver Anthony,

943
00:44:31,140 --> 00:44:33,870
S1: have if you had to sort of like take a

944
00:44:33,870 --> 00:44:36,569
S1: bet on it, do you think this is a song

945
00:44:36,570 --> 00:44:39,360
S1: or an artist that we'll be talking about come Christmas time,

946
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:41,460
S1: or do you think this will be a bit of

947
00:44:41,460 --> 00:44:42,779
S1: a fizzle in a few weeks?

948
00:44:43,020 --> 00:44:45,390
S2: Well, I think it's a damn shame what the world's coming.

949
00:44:45,390 --> 00:44:47,130
S5: To for people.

950
00:44:47,130 --> 00:44:47,610
S2: Like me and.

951
00:44:47,610 --> 00:44:48,210
S1: People like.

952
00:44:48,210 --> 00:44:48,750
S5: Me.

953
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:53,010
S2: People are you Look, I do think, unfortunately for all

954
00:44:53,010 --> 00:44:56,280
S2: of Anthony and his lovely dog, he. He may not

955
00:44:56,280 --> 00:45:00,210
S2: be the next big thing in country music. I think

956
00:45:00,210 --> 00:45:02,670
S2: just just the nature of the debate as as well

957
00:45:02,850 --> 00:45:05,040
S2: will kind of like swallow him up and that on

958
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:06,390
S2: top of that I've actually I don't know if you

959
00:45:06,390 --> 00:45:08,700
S2: guys have gone and listen to his other songs and

960
00:45:08,700 --> 00:45:10,950
S2: like they're not as good as the Richmond north of Richmond.

961
00:45:10,950 --> 00:45:13,020
S1: No, he's trying to evoke the same sort of vibe,

962
00:45:13,020 --> 00:45:15,210
S1: but just they don't hit in the same way. Yeah, you.

963
00:45:15,210 --> 00:45:17,190
S2: Can't pour your heart out like on ten tracks.

964
00:45:17,190 --> 00:45:19,350
S3: Yeah, I agree. I think he might be more of

965
00:45:19,350 --> 00:45:22,110
S3: a viral hit than a long term artist. And I

966
00:45:22,110 --> 00:45:25,650
S3: think partly that's because I am skeptical about his rise

967
00:45:25,650 --> 00:45:28,110
S3: up the charts. And I do think those right wing influences,

968
00:45:28,110 --> 00:45:31,050
S3: even if it wasn't an orchestrated attempt, I do think

969
00:45:31,050 --> 00:45:34,109
S3: they're responsible for the attention and the curiosity listening as well.

970
00:45:34,110 --> 00:45:37,980
S3: That's happening at the moment. So. Yeah. Sorry, sorry.

971
00:45:37,980 --> 00:45:38,820
S5: Oliver, can I just.

972
00:45:38,820 --> 00:45:40,680
S2: Can we just end with I like to ask you

973
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:42,180
S2: guys if you had to pick like one kind of

974
00:45:42,180 --> 00:45:44,490
S2: like trope from the country music world that you might

975
00:45:44,489 --> 00:45:47,069
S2: write your debut country music single on, like, what would

976
00:45:47,070 --> 00:45:48,810
S2: it be? Would you go like Broken Heart? Would you

977
00:45:48,810 --> 00:45:51,840
S2: go like a shot of whiskey? Like at the bar,

978
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:53,850
S2: open roads, like, where are you at?

979
00:45:53,969 --> 00:45:57,270
S3: I reckon I'm going. I'm going with the horse riding.

980
00:45:57,270 --> 00:45:57,600
S3: I'm going.

981
00:45:57,600 --> 00:45:59,250
S5: Oh, my God. Are we such a horse girl?

982
00:45:59,969 --> 00:46:02,790
S3: I'm going the cowboy hat out on the like out

983
00:46:02,790 --> 00:46:03,690
S3: on the land.

984
00:46:04,050 --> 00:46:06,750
S1: One of my favorite songs of all time and is

985
00:46:06,750 --> 00:46:08,730
S1: one of my go to karaoke songs I haven't really

986
00:46:08,730 --> 00:46:10,500
S1: had a chance to mention, even though we're talking about

987
00:46:10,500 --> 00:46:13,680
S1: country music is John Denver's Take Me Home Country Roads

988
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,730
S1: like I love that song. I think it's like the

989
00:46:16,980 --> 00:46:21,420
S1: official unofficial song of West Virginia. It features in like

990
00:46:21,420 --> 00:46:25,200
S1: a lot of films that I really like, including Soderbergh's Logan, Lucky,

991
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,779
S1: where it is like what chain Tenemos daughter ends up

992
00:46:27,780 --> 00:46:30,810
S1: singing at the end of that beauty pageant. So I'm

993
00:46:30,810 --> 00:46:34,110
S1: very partial to that kind of wide open road, like

994
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:38,279
S1: both evoking a sense of like the grandness and wonder

995
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:40,890
S1: of nature, but also that road that just takes you

996
00:46:40,890 --> 00:46:43,800
S1: back home. What is home? You know, it's a damn

997
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,170
S1: fine woman. It's a damn fine shot of whiskey.

998
00:46:46,170 --> 00:46:48,150
S3: I reckon we've got similar ideas. I'll get my people

999
00:46:48,150 --> 00:46:49,580
S3: to talk to your your people.

1000
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:51,120
S5: This is. This is the crossover we need.

1001
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:51,900
S3: What, sir?

1002
00:46:51,989 --> 00:46:52,710
S5: I would definitely.

1003
00:46:52,710 --> 00:46:55,350
S2: Mine would definitely be like. I would opt for the, like,

1004
00:46:55,350 --> 00:46:58,620
S2: broken heart drinking alone at the bar. Kind of that's

1005
00:46:58,620 --> 00:47:00,660
S2: where that's the best country for me, where it's like,

1006
00:47:00,660 --> 00:47:02,700
S2: the only thing I've got left is this shot of

1007
00:47:02,700 --> 00:47:03,420
S2: whiskey and.

1008
00:47:03,570 --> 00:47:04,860
S3: And do you want it pared back? Like, do you

1009
00:47:04,860 --> 00:47:07,210
S3: just want the banjo and your voice and your emotion to.

1010
00:47:07,469 --> 00:47:07,680
S5: I would.

1011
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:09,990
S2: Offer both. I would offer like the sad one as

1012
00:47:09,989 --> 00:47:11,819
S2: the lead single, and then the B-side would be like

1013
00:47:11,820 --> 00:47:13,080
S2: the fun drinking anthem.

1014
00:47:13,140 --> 00:47:15,000
S3: I think you've got a you've got a career.

1015
00:47:15,540 --> 00:47:15,960
S5: Really thought.

1016
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:19,740
S1: About this. Mel Thomas, thanks a bunch. Maybe to to

1017
00:47:19,739 --> 00:47:21,630
S1: sort of end things. Thomas, do you want to sing

1018
00:47:21,630 --> 00:47:24,629
S1: us out with a rendition of Last Night?

1019
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:33,300
S9: Lines. Now we'll add the liquor to the draft. Remember

1020
00:47:33,300 --> 00:47:36,270
S9: everything we said, but we said it all.

1021
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:38,220
S1: That was brilliant.

1022
00:47:38,219 --> 00:47:41,340
S5: Thanks. It's like, Oh, God, I can't believe I did

1023
00:47:41,340 --> 00:47:41,910
S5: that again.

1024
00:47:42,180 --> 00:47:43,380
S3: I'm so glad you did that.

1025
00:47:48,969 --> 00:47:52,390
S1: This episode of The Drop was produced by Cheong. If

1026
00:47:52,390 --> 00:47:55,570
S1: you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop, make

1027
00:47:55,570 --> 00:47:58,900
S1: sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app. Leave

1028
00:47:58,900 --> 00:48:02,140
S1: us a review or better yet, share it with a friend.

1029
00:48:02,140 --> 00:48:04,509
S1: I'm Osmond Fergie. See you next week.