1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:03,519 S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. 2 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:07,720 S1: This is inside politics. I'm Jacqueline Maley, it's Friday, December 12th, 3 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:10,680 S1: and joining me from Canberra. We have our chief political 4 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:15,239 S1: correspondent Paul Sakala as usual, and our chief political commentator 5 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:17,720 S1: James Massola. Welcome, gents. 6 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:19,439 S2: Hello. Thanks, Jack. 7 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:22,079 S1: Today we're going to go over the expenses scandal, if 8 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:24,560 S1: indeed we are calling it a scandal that has engulfed 9 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:27,960 S1: the Communications Minister, Anika Wells, at precisely the moment when 10 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:30,320 S1: she wanted to be talking about the social media ban 11 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,559 S1: that was instituted this week. James, you've reported on all 12 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,159 S1: the expenses stories for us, and it's starting to look 13 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:38,920 S1: a lot like these. Anika Wells expenses have been raked 14 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:41,160 S1: over by, say, the Liberal Party dirt unit or other 15 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,840 S1: parties and then rolled out one by one to embarrass 16 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:47,320 S1: the minister at this pivotal moment. Would you care to 17 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:49,879 S1: comment on that without revealing your sources? Of course. 18 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:51,720 S3: Can we talk about how the sausage is made, or 19 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:53,800 S3: do we keep that? Do we keep that hidden? 20 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:57,000 S1: I think that's I think that's important in this story. 21 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,459 S4: Jackie. You're definitely correct that some of the information that 22 00:01:01,460 --> 00:01:05,820 S4: was being sourced from publicly available information, that it was 23 00:01:05,819 --> 00:01:09,060 S4: being circulated by the opposition. Right. They've been a bit 24 00:01:09,060 --> 00:01:11,259 S4: of a rabble. Let's be frank, for the last six 25 00:01:11,260 --> 00:01:13,580 S4: months or so, and it's like they've finally woken up 26 00:01:13,580 --> 00:01:16,980 S4: and gone, oh, that's right. Our job is to hold 27 00:01:16,980 --> 00:01:19,259 S4: the government of the day to account, rather than tearing 28 00:01:19,260 --> 00:01:21,500 S4: each other to bits. Um, so some of it comes 29 00:01:21,500 --> 00:01:25,180 S4: from there. Some of it has come from government sources, 30 00:01:25,180 --> 00:01:28,860 S4: as in labour on labour violence, as in people who 31 00:01:29,459 --> 00:01:33,899 S4: for whatever reason are, you know, jealous of the minister 32 00:01:33,900 --> 00:01:36,979 S4: and sort of wanting to take a bit of paint off. Um, 33 00:01:37,020 --> 00:01:40,540 S4: you know, perhaps they want to be the next cab 34 00:01:40,540 --> 00:01:44,340 S4: off the rank in terms of promotion rather than seeing 35 00:01:44,340 --> 00:01:47,020 S4: her again. And then again, you know, some of this 36 00:01:47,020 --> 00:01:51,740 S4: material has been sourced either independently or even by third parties, 37 00:01:51,780 --> 00:01:55,940 S4: you know, sectoral interests who are, you know, disappointed with 38 00:01:55,940 --> 00:01:59,560 S4: the minister and how she's handled, one or other of 39 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:03,320 S4: her portfolios. Anika Wells. Jackie, let's be really clear. Anika 40 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:08,040 S4: Wells is a very talented minister. She's risen very quickly 41 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:11,160 S4: through the ranks into cabinet, and she's made some enemies 42 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:14,360 S4: along the way. So even before you begin to reflect 43 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:18,400 S4: on her performance one way or another. Um, yeah. She's 44 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,320 S4: got some enemies and and those enemies have relished this. 45 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:23,160 S1: It is a really dirty business. Yeah. 46 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:25,160 S3: I'm happy to give some insight in terms of what 47 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:27,520 S3: what I understand about the genesis of some of the 48 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:29,600 S3: information as well. I was talking to a couple of 49 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:33,240 S3: people who were integral to the May election campaign on 50 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:35,840 S3: the Liberal side this week, and these are people who 51 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,200 S3: are no longer in the show but were senior at 52 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:41,360 S3: the time, and they both asked me, why is this 53 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,280 S3: all come up now? And how come you guys didn't 54 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,480 S3: run any of this pre-election because this research had been 55 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:51,160 S3: done in a very thorough way by the opposition and they're, uh, 56 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:53,840 S3: you know, dirt file unit, to put it crudely, and 57 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:56,080 S3: research unit to put it in a, in a more 58 00:02:56,180 --> 00:02:59,900 S3: euphemistic term before the election on Anika Wells, because there 59 00:02:59,900 --> 00:03:02,220 S3: was a perception that she was a big user of 60 00:03:02,220 --> 00:03:05,060 S3: entitlements and she was loved the glitz and the glamour. 61 00:03:05,380 --> 00:03:09,459 S3: And the difference is that when those when those, those 62 00:03:09,460 --> 00:03:12,660 S3: bits of information were shopped around pre-election, the Liberal Party 63 00:03:12,700 --> 00:03:15,500 S3: struggled to find a journalist interested to write them because 64 00:03:15,500 --> 00:03:18,740 S3: there was no spark, which set off the chain of 65 00:03:18,740 --> 00:03:22,620 S3: events that has created this scandal. That spark came last 66 00:03:22,620 --> 00:03:25,220 S3: week when, just before a Senate estimates hearing, which is 67 00:03:25,220 --> 00:03:27,620 S3: the last moment at which the government was mandated to 68 00:03:27,620 --> 00:03:32,100 S3: release this information, the information about her flights to New 69 00:03:32,139 --> 00:03:36,260 S3: York were revealed. It had that headline $100,000 number that 70 00:03:36,260 --> 00:03:40,020 S3: twigs people's minds. It creates a narrative, and then each 71 00:03:40,020 --> 00:03:43,740 S3: subsequent story fits into this narrative around one person. No 72 00:03:43,740 --> 00:03:46,900 S3: other bit of spending looks as egregious, even though new 73 00:03:46,900 --> 00:03:50,780 S3: examples emerge about other MPs. And so you get this 74 00:03:50,780 --> 00:03:52,740 S3: pressure build up on the one character. 75 00:03:53,260 --> 00:03:55,240 S1: That's exactly what I was going to talk about is 76 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:57,280 S1: the kind of the strange alchemy of what makes a 77 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:59,800 S1: story a story at any given moment. And as you say, 78 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,640 S1: it's the New York trip. And people immediately see New 79 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:04,600 S1: York as being kind of glitzy, I guess, and the 80 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,520 S1: $100,000 figure of the flights. And we discussed that last week. 81 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,680 S1: But this week the caravan kind of moved on to 82 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,520 S1: the family entitlement stuff, which probably a lot of voters 83 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:18,000 S1: don't even really realize exists the family reunion entitlement. So, James, 84 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,520 S1: can you just tell us how that works? And, you know, 85 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,680 S1: so Anika Wells is publicly declared, and now it has 86 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,200 S1: been extensively reported that she's used this entitlement to bring 87 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,440 S1: her family, like her kids, to Thredbo for a work 88 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:31,839 S1: thing she was doing there as sports minister. And because 89 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:33,520 S1: she is sports minister, she's gone to a lot of 90 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:35,720 S1: grand finals and stuff, and she's brought her husband with 91 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:37,039 S1: her on the taxpayer dime. 92 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:40,440 S4: Yep. Okay, so I'll try and keep it as brief 93 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:45,240 S4: as possible. Jax. Um, family entitlement rules. Partner of an 94 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:50,719 S4: MP can fly from home based Sydney to Canberra up 95 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:55,460 S4: to nine times a year, or the value of nine 96 00:04:55,740 --> 00:05:00,779 S4: business class flights, to be very specific. Children up to 97 00:05:00,820 --> 00:05:05,260 S4: three return flights from home base to Canberra, and then 98 00:05:05,700 --> 00:05:10,700 S4: after that, three more business class flights from home base 99 00:05:10,700 --> 00:05:15,099 S4: to city. That is not Canberra. Now, those are the 100 00:05:15,140 --> 00:05:17,980 S4: sort of broad parameters. There are exceptions that can be 101 00:05:17,980 --> 00:05:21,460 S4: made for ministers which allow extra flights, but that's it 102 00:05:21,460 --> 00:05:25,940 S4: in a nutshell. So family entitlement rules exist to allow 103 00:05:25,980 --> 00:05:29,339 S4: MPs who work very hard, like Minister Wells, for example, 104 00:05:29,380 --> 00:05:32,500 S4: you know, three young kids, um, all of that, they 105 00:05:32,500 --> 00:05:37,980 S4: allow MPs to try and maintain some kind of normalcy, 106 00:05:37,980 --> 00:05:39,420 S4: I guess. Jacqui. Yeah. Um. 107 00:05:39,700 --> 00:05:42,700 S1: Maybe maybe to stay married as well. I mean. 108 00:05:42,740 --> 00:05:46,700 S4: Exactly, exactly. Um, there's a joke that does the rounds 109 00:05:46,860 --> 00:05:50,700 S4: amongst MPs. You know, there's not four status levels of 110 00:05:50,700 --> 00:05:53,880 S4: frequent flyer. There's actually five. It's like, uh, I think 111 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:59,560 S4: red silver. Gold. Platinum. Divorced. Yeah, right. It's a bit 112 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:01,479 S4: of a gallows humour, but it's a good example. 113 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:06,680 S3: In one of the, uh, MPs inductions, uh, meetings where 114 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,200 S3: they get former parliamentarians to talk to new MPs. They 115 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:11,800 S3: used to do this thing where they'd say, look to 116 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:14,960 S3: the two people around you, two out of three of you, 117 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,000 S3: at the end of your time in Parliament won't have 118 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:20,440 S3: the partner that you're with. Um, so it's something they're 119 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:23,280 S3: all very aware of. But I just want to go 120 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:26,360 S3: to this point, James, people have been defending these travel 121 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,800 S3: reunion entitlements this week on this basis that they're important 122 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:33,520 S3: to keep families together and to encourage younger parents into Parliament. 123 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:37,080 S3: And I totally understand that. But I think most MPs 124 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,760 S3: understand the spirit of these rules or the essence of 125 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,000 S3: these rules, to be kind of as follows, that if 126 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,280 S3: you spend a week in Canberra, for example, and then 127 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,280 S3: you have a committee hearing in Tasmania and you have 128 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:49,560 S3: to go back to Canberra on Monday, but your family's 129 00:06:49,660 --> 00:06:52,700 S3: in Brisbane. You can pay to bring the family to Tasmania. 130 00:06:52,740 --> 00:06:55,700 S3: Spend the weekend with you, see the MP for a bit, 131 00:06:55,740 --> 00:06:58,219 S3: then go back home. You go to Canberra. But as 132 00:06:58,220 --> 00:07:00,740 S3: this week has gone on and the Australian has done 133 00:07:00,740 --> 00:07:04,140 S3: some good work on Thursday The Australian newspaper, in terms 134 00:07:04,140 --> 00:07:07,059 S3: of tallying up Don Farrell and Sarah Hanson-young's use of 135 00:07:07,300 --> 00:07:11,700 S3: family reunion rules, Sarah Hanson-Young appears to have used family 136 00:07:11,700 --> 00:07:16,020 S3: reunion entitlements to allow her husband, who's a lobbyist in Canberra, 137 00:07:16,060 --> 00:07:18,220 S3: Ben Oquist, who a lot of people, a lot of 138 00:07:18,220 --> 00:07:23,180 S3: journalists know, good operator 78 times since 2022, and Don 139 00:07:23,220 --> 00:07:27,060 S3: Farrell has brought his wife on 136 flights, the equivalent 140 00:07:27,060 --> 00:07:30,900 S3: of 3.7 movements around the globe in that same time frame, 141 00:07:30,940 --> 00:07:34,380 S3: tallying up to more than $200,000 between the two. And 142 00:07:34,380 --> 00:07:36,820 S3: there's a story in The Guardian which says that those 143 00:07:37,020 --> 00:07:39,940 S3: restrictions or those limits that you referenced before, James, about 144 00:07:39,940 --> 00:07:43,620 S3: nine business class flights apparently don't exist for ministers and 145 00:07:43,620 --> 00:07:46,820 S3: other senior office holders. So effectively, these family reunion rules 146 00:07:46,820 --> 00:07:49,800 S3: can be used as much as possible, which means that 147 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:52,840 S3: an MP can bring their spouse on the taxpayer dime 148 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:57,320 S3: wherever they go, whenever, as many times as possible. Now, 149 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:01,280 S3: that might keep families together, but it. I'm not sure 150 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:03,040 S3: that I know we talk a lot about the pub test, 151 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,120 S3: but that seems like yeah, this is information we didn't know. 152 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:09,920 S3: And I don't think people realize that these entitlements were 153 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:11,040 S3: being used to this extent. 154 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:13,640 S1: I mean, I'm inclined to agree with you. And I 155 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,040 S1: think that, you know, just because you have an entitlement 156 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,320 S1: doesn't mean that you should necessarily stretch the stretch the 157 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:21,760 S1: limits of entitlement, but it is what it says on 158 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:24,120 S1: the tin. It's an entitlement, and they're taking what they're 159 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:26,760 S1: entitled to. Right. And people are going to use whatever 160 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,600 S1: they're entitled to within the rules. And as Albanese and 161 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,520 S1: Anika Wills keep saying, she was within the rules, within 162 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,360 S1: the rules, within the rules, she was singled out. But 163 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:37,439 S1: I do, and I've spoken about this with a lot 164 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,080 S1: of women that I know. Annabel Crabb wrote a really 165 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,280 S1: good column about it on the ABC online about whether 166 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,760 S1: or not there's a gender element in particular to Annika 167 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:49,100 S1: Wells being singled out. She's a sports minister, so she 168 00:08:49,100 --> 00:08:51,020 S1: has to go to all these sporting events. If we 169 00:08:51,020 --> 00:08:55,500 S1: want to attract young women who have children, small children 170 00:08:55,500 --> 00:08:58,100 S1: and marriages that they presumably want to keep intact into 171 00:08:58,100 --> 00:09:01,860 S1: the ministry, then we've got to allow these arrangements and 172 00:09:01,860 --> 00:09:04,100 S1: these crazy jobs that they have to be a little 173 00:09:04,100 --> 00:09:05,380 S1: bit more family friendly. 174 00:09:06,300 --> 00:09:09,060 S4: Jacqui, I agree with you up to a point, right? 175 00:09:09,220 --> 00:09:11,819 S4: I think Anika Wells is a super talent. I think 176 00:09:11,860 --> 00:09:15,500 S4: she'll recover from this in time. Uh, I think as 177 00:09:15,500 --> 00:09:19,340 S4: she gleefully predicted, it will be found by the EPA 178 00:09:19,340 --> 00:09:22,900 S4: that everything she's done, or just about everything she's done 179 00:09:22,940 --> 00:09:25,860 S4: is within entitlements. But that's the thing. And this goes 180 00:09:25,860 --> 00:09:29,060 S4: to Paul's point. Like, does this pass the pub test 181 00:09:29,059 --> 00:09:32,420 S4: or the kitchen table test or the common sense test 182 00:09:32,420 --> 00:09:35,740 S4: or whatever? And I don't believe it does. If you 183 00:09:35,740 --> 00:09:40,820 S4: look at her travel to the 50th birthday of the 184 00:09:40,940 --> 00:09:44,540 S4: former Victorian MP Peter Murphy, that's the one that really 185 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:48,640 S4: sticks with me. So Anika Wells flies from Brisbane to 186 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:52,559 S4: Melbourne to go to the birthday party, which was also 187 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:56,920 S4: a living wake for a woman who died three weeks later. Right. 188 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:02,120 S4: She went to Saint Kilda Beach on the Saturday and 189 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,559 S4: and made a minor announcement at a surf club on 190 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:08,960 S4: the Sunday she went to a an aged care home. 191 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:09,840 S4: So she was working. 192 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:11,520 S1: She did some work engagements. 193 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,120 S4: She posted a couple of things on her Instagram. One 194 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:17,120 S4: of them said, I'm helping some people, some older people, 195 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:19,280 S4: and I'm quoting with their puzzle. 196 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:21,800 S1: So she was. But she's the aged care minister. She was. 197 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,320 S1: It was she was in she was within. She was 198 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,320 S1: within her capacity as a minister. She didn't go as 199 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:28,239 S1: a private citizen. 200 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,040 S4: No. Sure that's correct. But Tanya Plibersek, Alicia Payne and 201 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,560 S4: Mario Smith didn't see fit to charge taxpayers to go 202 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:37,400 S4: to the same birthday. Right. And they didn't post a 203 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,040 S4: couple of things like Instagram to cover their backsides. 204 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:42,760 S1: And maybe, maybe I am looking at this through two 205 00:10:42,900 --> 00:10:46,980 S1: gender lens. But I just think about all the egregious 206 00:10:46,980 --> 00:10:49,939 S1: stuff that male politicians have done over the years. And 207 00:10:49,940 --> 00:10:52,179 S1: you want to talk about the pub test? I don't 208 00:10:52,179 --> 00:10:54,819 S1: know which pubs you're drinking in, but you know, and 209 00:10:54,820 --> 00:10:57,060 S1: Annabelle makes this point really well in her column because 210 00:10:57,059 --> 00:11:00,220 S1: she sort of compares it to Barnaby Joyce, who's, you know, 211 00:11:00,260 --> 00:11:03,420 S1: had many crimes against decent behaviour over the years. You know. 212 00:11:04,100 --> 00:11:05,380 S4: No arguments here. Yes. 213 00:11:05,420 --> 00:11:07,540 S1: Yeah. So I mean, I do think that there is 214 00:11:07,580 --> 00:11:09,580 S1: there is a sort of family gender. Like do we 215 00:11:09,580 --> 00:11:12,980 S1: want women of, you know, who've got young families in politics? 216 00:11:12,980 --> 00:11:16,500 S1: There is that element to it. But I mean, Paul, 217 00:11:16,500 --> 00:11:18,740 S1: what do you think? I mean, what's your sort of 218 00:11:18,820 --> 00:11:20,620 S1: view on the balance between I mean, there are difficult 219 00:11:20,620 --> 00:11:22,220 S1: jobs that involve a lot of travel, a lot of 220 00:11:22,220 --> 00:11:24,940 S1: time away from home. Are we just being super mean 221 00:11:24,940 --> 00:11:25,980 S1: about this stuff? 222 00:11:26,500 --> 00:11:29,300 S3: Yeah, I think that to me, if I, if I 223 00:11:29,300 --> 00:11:32,939 S3: was trying to identify where the gendered element to this 224 00:11:32,940 --> 00:11:35,540 S3: debate is emerging to me, I see it in the 225 00:11:35,540 --> 00:11:38,820 S3: way some of her colleagues and people on the in 226 00:11:38,860 --> 00:11:43,440 S3: the opposition are revelling in the criticism of her. She's 227 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,760 S3: seen as someone who's been promoted above her station by 228 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:51,640 S3: her critics. She presents really well. She's super confident, super ambitious, 229 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,160 S3: and there are many men in the Labour Party who 230 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,760 S3: share all of those traits. There aren't quite as many women, 231 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:01,160 S3: and I think she cops an outsized level of focus 232 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,760 S3: because of that. Now, having said that, I think part 233 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:06,960 S3: of the reason why people like Jim Chalmers, who is 234 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:11,160 S3: is close to Minister Wells, has not been super firm 235 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:13,640 S3: in his defence of her. And really, none of her 236 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:15,760 S3: colleagues have really wanted to defend the nitty gritty of 237 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,559 S3: what she's done. And the reason for that is she. 238 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,000 S3: If you take the critical view of how she's acted, 239 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:25,559 S3: has used every kind of trick in the book on entitlements. 240 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,440 S3: She's gone to Adelaide to go to a friend's birthday 241 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:32,720 S3: party and kind of created a diary of work around it. 242 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:37,000 S3: She's left Comcast for ten hours outside events. She's systemically 243 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:41,540 S3: brought her partner to the most high profile fun sporting 244 00:12:41,540 --> 00:12:43,940 S3: engagements year after year. Now there is an argument the 245 00:12:43,940 --> 00:12:45,740 S3: Sports minister should have their partner there. 246 00:12:46,140 --> 00:12:47,900 S1: How many blokes do you think have brought their wives 247 00:12:47,900 --> 00:12:49,740 S1: to the cricket and the tennis and what have you 248 00:12:49,740 --> 00:12:50,339 S1: over the years? 249 00:12:50,380 --> 00:12:54,420 S4: I've actually called around about this and they didn't like 250 00:12:54,660 --> 00:12:57,540 S4: previous sports ministers, many of whom, but not all of 251 00:12:57,540 --> 00:13:00,180 S4: whom are blokes. Don't. They just don't. 252 00:13:00,220 --> 00:13:03,300 S3: Don Farrell is clearly. Does it as trade minister. Yes. 253 00:13:03,340 --> 00:13:05,980 S3: And Anika Wells clearly does it. But I've spoken. 254 00:13:05,980 --> 00:13:09,620 S4: To him about Greg Hunt, Richard Colbeck, Bridget McKenzie. 255 00:13:09,860 --> 00:13:14,220 S3: Yeah. And speaking to some of Anika's Minister Wells colleagues 256 00:13:14,220 --> 00:13:17,180 S3: this week, even some of her, her friends who really 257 00:13:17,220 --> 00:13:19,980 S3: have been, you know, dealing with her every day, even 258 00:13:19,980 --> 00:13:23,219 S3: those people say, look, if she had her time again 259 00:13:23,420 --> 00:13:25,980 S3: and applied the front page test on some of these, 260 00:13:26,220 --> 00:13:29,100 S3: this spending, which is that would you want this on 261 00:13:29,100 --> 00:13:31,220 S3: the front page of the paper? She won't make these 262 00:13:31,220 --> 00:13:31,940 S3: decisions again. 263 00:13:31,980 --> 00:13:33,939 S1: And that and that is really pivotal. And I think 264 00:13:33,940 --> 00:13:36,220 S1: it's probably been a big wake up call to probably 265 00:13:36,220 --> 00:13:38,510 S1: everyone in Parliament. And I bet you, you know, the 266 00:13:38,510 --> 00:13:41,750 S1: opposition is is the same. They're getting talkings to about 267 00:13:41,790 --> 00:13:44,829 S1: how to be careful. It's like as journalists I, you know, 268 00:13:44,870 --> 00:13:46,310 S1: you have the rule of don't put anything in a 269 00:13:46,309 --> 00:13:48,710 S1: text message you wouldn't want pinned to an affidavit. Right? 270 00:13:48,750 --> 00:13:49,190 S1: And they. 271 00:13:49,190 --> 00:13:49,510 S3: Need. 272 00:13:49,710 --> 00:13:50,070 S1: Yeah. 273 00:13:50,110 --> 00:13:53,910 S3: I had a senior liberal message me yesterday saying I'm 274 00:13:53,910 --> 00:13:56,550 S3: really stunned that the government hasn't found better examples of 275 00:13:56,550 --> 00:13:58,790 S3: some of my colleagues use of entitlements, because there are 276 00:13:58,790 --> 00:14:01,869 S3: some outrageous ones and they're all sitting there in secret. 277 00:14:01,870 --> 00:14:03,950 S1: And this is the thing, right? It becomes a. 278 00:14:04,390 --> 00:14:05,710 S4: Secret. Hiding in plain sight. 279 00:14:05,750 --> 00:14:06,470 S3: Hiding in plain sight. 280 00:14:06,510 --> 00:14:09,350 S1: It's mutually assured destruction whenever they start talking about this. 281 00:14:09,350 --> 00:14:11,830 S1: So it is really interesting to see the different reactions, 282 00:14:11,830 --> 00:14:13,910 S1: because I think they all know that there are skeletons 283 00:14:13,910 --> 00:14:17,350 S1: in their closet or their own sort of side that 284 00:14:17,350 --> 00:14:19,910 S1: they don't want exposed on the front page of papers. 285 00:14:20,510 --> 00:14:23,990 S4: Jeff, you've been around as long as I have, right? 286 00:14:24,030 --> 00:14:26,550 S4: Give or take a couple of years as a journalist. 287 00:14:26,550 --> 00:14:29,270 S4: And no disrespect to Paul, but he's slightly younger than us. 288 00:14:29,350 --> 00:14:34,190 S1: Um, I, I think it's an insult to our. Sorry. Yeah. 289 00:14:34,230 --> 00:14:34,750 S1: Go on. 290 00:14:35,030 --> 00:14:37,770 S3: No, that's. I'll. I'll let that one go through to 291 00:14:37,770 --> 00:14:38,330 S3: the keeper. 292 00:14:38,610 --> 00:14:39,210 S4: Yeah. Yeah. 293 00:14:39,330 --> 00:14:39,970 S3: And it's a fact. 294 00:14:40,610 --> 00:14:41,090 S4: In quite. 295 00:14:41,090 --> 00:14:41,770 S3: A ways. No, no, no. 296 00:14:41,810 --> 00:14:45,730 S4: You're fine. You recall that Susan Lee got tripped up 297 00:14:45,730 --> 00:14:49,490 S4: by entitlements, uh, in 2017. But think back a little 298 00:14:49,490 --> 00:14:54,650 S4: further to 2013. The Abbott government's just been elected. Tony 299 00:14:54,650 --> 00:14:57,490 S4: Abbott's talking all about how he wants to slow down 300 00:14:57,490 --> 00:15:01,970 S4: politics and get back to a more stable, normal age. 301 00:15:02,010 --> 00:15:04,650 S4: Former colleague of ours, Catherine Murphy, wrote a great essay 302 00:15:04,650 --> 00:15:07,489 S4: in The Guardian at the time, saying this is exactly 303 00:15:07,490 --> 00:15:09,530 S4: what Tony Abbott should be doing and good on him 304 00:15:09,530 --> 00:15:12,770 S4: and all this sort of stuff. You'd remember Jonathan Swan, 305 00:15:12,770 --> 00:15:15,250 S4: who's now a correspondent for The New York Times, but 306 00:15:15,250 --> 00:15:17,770 S4: at the time was a young, up and coming journalist, 307 00:15:17,810 --> 00:15:18,770 S4: beloved colleague. 308 00:15:18,770 --> 00:15:21,210 S1: And now he's very, very famous in the United. 309 00:15:21,210 --> 00:15:27,490 S4: States, extremely, terrifyingly famous. He starts breaking a series of 310 00:15:27,490 --> 00:15:31,050 S4: stories about entitlements. Right. Um, this is straight after the 311 00:15:31,050 --> 00:15:37,190 S4: 2013 election. So October, September. October 2013. about MPs going 312 00:15:37,190 --> 00:15:40,350 S4: on six week study tours in the bicycle lanes of, 313 00:15:40,550 --> 00:15:44,870 S4: you know, Holland and and what have you like people absolutely. 314 00:15:44,870 --> 00:15:49,430 S4: Taking the piss right. My point is this about every 315 00:15:49,430 --> 00:15:53,310 S4: 10 to 15 years, these, uh, entitlements end up getting 316 00:15:53,310 --> 00:15:57,710 S4: a bunch of MPs in trouble. And that's what's happening now. 317 00:15:57,710 --> 00:16:02,990 S4: It's metastasizing. It's not just Anika Wells anymore. Although her 318 00:16:02,990 --> 00:16:06,830 S4: use of entitlements is, uh. How how would I put it? 319 00:16:06,870 --> 00:16:09,390 S4: She's used them to the nth degree. Like, she's made 320 00:16:09,390 --> 00:16:12,390 S4: sure that she's claimed every single little small thing. And 321 00:16:12,390 --> 00:16:15,590 S4: that's what happened in 2013 as well, right? These there 322 00:16:15,590 --> 00:16:19,430 S4: were like these MPs back then. They weren't using entitlements 323 00:16:19,430 --> 00:16:22,830 S4: outside the rules. They were using them to their maximum. 324 00:16:22,870 --> 00:16:26,430 S3: And Wells Wells has become unfortunately for her, she's become 325 00:16:26,430 --> 00:16:28,870 S3: the breakout example that sticks in the public's mind. I've 326 00:16:28,870 --> 00:16:31,790 S3: been looking at some of the social media stats, um, 327 00:16:31,990 --> 00:16:33,930 S3: a video that the Financial Review put up of her 328 00:16:33,930 --> 00:16:37,610 S3: press club performance last week, has 1.5 million views. I've 329 00:16:37,610 --> 00:16:40,650 S3: had friends who are school friends who laugh at my 330 00:16:40,650 --> 00:16:44,250 S3: job and think politics is is dumb. Contact me and 331 00:16:44,250 --> 00:16:46,970 S3: just say, what's this all about? This is it's outrageous. 332 00:16:47,290 --> 00:16:49,530 S3: It's totally cut through. It's totally cut through. 333 00:16:49,690 --> 00:16:51,530 S1: And unfortunately. 334 00:16:51,570 --> 00:16:53,730 S3: And there's no nuance and there's no nuance in that debate. 335 00:16:53,770 --> 00:16:55,130 S3: But that's how things go. 336 00:16:55,410 --> 00:16:57,730 S1: And James is right. Like you're in politics for a while. 337 00:16:57,730 --> 00:16:59,610 S1: You see these things kind of break out like a 338 00:16:59,610 --> 00:17:01,890 S1: little grass fire every now and then, and you never 339 00:17:01,890 --> 00:17:04,730 S1: know who it's going to engulf, which is always propagate. 340 00:17:04,730 --> 00:17:06,290 S4: 2015 is another example. 341 00:17:06,330 --> 00:17:09,010 S1: Yeah. Yeah. Well that's right. And what do people remember 342 00:17:09,010 --> 00:17:12,370 S1: about Bronwyn Bishop? Not her long and storied career in politics, 343 00:17:12,369 --> 00:17:14,050 S1: when she was talked about as a potential leader of 344 00:17:14,050 --> 00:17:17,649 S1: the opposition, at one point they remember her chartering a 345 00:17:17,650 --> 00:17:20,450 S1: chopper to take her. How long was the flight? Like 346 00:17:20,450 --> 00:17:21,129 S1: 30 minutes. 347 00:17:21,170 --> 00:17:21,930 S4: Oh, it was like. 348 00:17:21,970 --> 00:17:23,770 S1: It was like Melbourne to Bendigo or something. 349 00:17:23,850 --> 00:17:27,210 S4: 25 minutes in a helicopter. I've never taken it. I 350 00:17:27,210 --> 00:17:30,730 S4: assume it's 25 minutes in a helicopter. Like most people, 351 00:17:30,730 --> 00:17:32,030 S4: I've only ever driven it. 352 00:17:32,190 --> 00:17:35,189 S3: Um, I thought, um, just just on Wells and how 353 00:17:35,190 --> 00:17:37,830 S3: she's become the vehicle for all of this, um, grievance 354 00:17:37,830 --> 00:17:39,870 S3: out there in the community, which is in some ways 355 00:17:39,869 --> 00:17:42,709 S3: unfair to her. But she made this one comment, which 356 00:17:42,710 --> 00:17:44,230 S3: I don't think was picked up. I think it was 357 00:17:44,270 --> 00:17:47,430 S3: on Wednesday in a press conference she did just before 358 00:17:47,670 --> 00:17:49,909 S3: meeting with the Prime Minister at Kirribilli House for the 359 00:17:49,910 --> 00:17:52,550 S3: social media event. And I think it's another one of 360 00:17:52,550 --> 00:17:54,350 S3: those comments she would take back if she had her 361 00:17:54,350 --> 00:17:57,310 S3: time again. She said, you know, I understand people out 362 00:17:57,310 --> 00:17:59,790 S3: there don't have much time for the political class and 363 00:17:59,790 --> 00:18:03,110 S3: don't give us much breathing room. I mean, that is 364 00:18:03,109 --> 00:18:05,950 S3: a really tone deaf comment to me. Firstly, to even yeah, 365 00:18:05,950 --> 00:18:08,190 S3: I think to even acknowledge that you're in a class 366 00:18:08,390 --> 00:18:10,909 S3: is not it's not a it's not a smart way 367 00:18:10,910 --> 00:18:13,470 S3: to speak about the issue. But if you do have 368 00:18:13,470 --> 00:18:16,750 S3: the consciousness that you are perceived, you're perceived with a 369 00:18:16,750 --> 00:18:19,950 S3: level of unfairness. Then you should be much more judicious 370 00:18:19,950 --> 00:18:21,630 S3: about the way you go about your decision making. 371 00:18:21,670 --> 00:18:24,870 S1: It's very hard, I think, and politicians almost always get 372 00:18:24,869 --> 00:18:27,790 S1: this wrong. In my view, it's very hard to show 373 00:18:27,790 --> 00:18:32,409 S1: contrition and to take accountability for a situation without being 374 00:18:32,410 --> 00:18:35,330 S1: seen to back down. And, you know, their egos get engaged. 375 00:18:35,330 --> 00:18:38,090 S1: And and I think that's probably what's happened here. It 376 00:18:38,090 --> 00:18:41,770 S1: is interesting obviously, James referred to this before that Annika 377 00:18:41,770 --> 00:18:43,770 S1: Wells has sort of sought to draw a line under 378 00:18:43,770 --> 00:18:45,649 S1: all this stuff, if you like, by referring all of 379 00:18:45,650 --> 00:18:48,410 S1: her expenses and all of her use of entitlements to 380 00:18:48,450 --> 00:18:51,210 S1: the Independent Parliamentary Expenses Authority, which is the body that 381 00:18:51,210 --> 00:18:54,570 S1: oversees this stuff. She's the only politician to have done so. 382 00:18:54,730 --> 00:18:56,850 S1: It remains to be seen whether people, you know, journalists 383 00:18:56,850 --> 00:18:59,090 S1: will keep trawling through this stuff and maybe find more 384 00:18:59,090 --> 00:19:02,250 S1: egregious examples from the other side of the aisle, perhaps even. 385 00:19:02,490 --> 00:19:06,770 S1: But Albanese, his stance has been to firmly back his minister. Right, Paul? 386 00:19:06,970 --> 00:19:09,530 S3: Yeah. Well, I was going to make that point. I mean, 387 00:19:09,570 --> 00:19:14,370 S3: the the referral to EPR is not a fronting up 388 00:19:14,369 --> 00:19:17,770 S3: quickly when the party has identified a problem to take 389 00:19:17,770 --> 00:19:21,290 S3: it seriously. Referring to Ipea is a way to cauterize 390 00:19:21,290 --> 00:19:24,050 S3: the issue in the in the medium term to just 391 00:19:24,090 --> 00:19:27,489 S3: dampen some of the criticism. It was done on the 392 00:19:27,530 --> 00:19:30,670 S3: afternoon before the social media ban so that the minister 393 00:19:30,670 --> 00:19:32,870 S3: could meet with the Prime Minister the next day and 394 00:19:32,869 --> 00:19:34,790 S3: have as a talking point that IP will look at 395 00:19:34,790 --> 00:19:37,109 S3: this so they could move on to talking about their policy. 396 00:19:37,510 --> 00:19:39,710 S3: There hasn't been at any point, an acknowledgement from the 397 00:19:39,710 --> 00:19:43,110 S3: Prime Minister or Minister Wells that some of this spending 398 00:19:43,109 --> 00:19:45,869 S3: might have been poor judgment, and the Prime Minister is 399 00:19:45,869 --> 00:19:48,710 S3: not he's really the key decision maker here, not the minister. 400 00:19:48,750 --> 00:19:51,590 S3: There's been no acknowledgement from the Prime Minister that these 401 00:19:51,590 --> 00:19:55,070 S3: family reunion entitlements might need to be looked at. And 402 00:19:55,070 --> 00:19:58,870 S3: that's in part driven by his determination to not be seen, 403 00:19:58,869 --> 00:20:01,869 S3: to be giving in, not be seen, to have a 404 00:20:02,070 --> 00:20:04,590 S3: cabinet scandal that might result in the removal of one 405 00:20:04,590 --> 00:20:07,310 S3: of his ministers, because that would diminish the sense that 406 00:20:07,310 --> 00:20:10,109 S3: he runs a stable cabinet government that has not lost 407 00:20:10,109 --> 00:20:12,630 S3: a minister in his term of term in office, which 408 00:20:12,630 --> 00:20:15,230 S3: he's very proud of. And so the government strategy will 409 00:20:15,230 --> 00:20:18,870 S3: be to muddy up the opposition to the greatest extent possible, 410 00:20:18,990 --> 00:20:21,310 S3: hope that Christmas comes and we all forget about it. 411 00:20:21,350 --> 00:20:23,470 S3: Hope that EPA comes back with not too strong a 412 00:20:23,470 --> 00:20:26,470 S3: finding about Minister Wells and that this all simmers down. 413 00:20:26,930 --> 00:20:28,850 S1: So you think I mean, there is a there are 414 00:20:28,850 --> 00:20:31,530 S1: some people saying that these rules, in particular the family 415 00:20:31,530 --> 00:20:34,609 S1: reunion entitlements should be reviewed and the PM saying, no, 416 00:20:34,609 --> 00:20:36,730 S1: I'm not going to do that. I don't see anyone 417 00:20:36,770 --> 00:20:39,090 S1: on the other side of politics lobbying for it. Are 418 00:20:39,090 --> 00:20:40,850 S1: they going to make that an election pledge? 419 00:20:41,290 --> 00:20:43,810 S3: Well, Melissa McIntosh and Simon Kennedy are the only two, 420 00:20:43,850 --> 00:20:46,170 S3: as far as I can tell, major party MPs who've 421 00:20:46,170 --> 00:20:48,090 S3: said these rules are no good and we need to 422 00:20:48,090 --> 00:20:48,850 S3: have a look at them. 423 00:20:48,890 --> 00:20:49,290 S1: Okay. 424 00:20:49,730 --> 00:20:51,770 S4: Yeah, I don't think I don't think they will, Jack. 425 00:20:51,810 --> 00:20:54,770 S1: Okay. Yeah. I mean, this is this is the thing is, um, 426 00:20:54,890 --> 00:20:57,690 S1: I think there is there is probably a bipartisan agreement 427 00:20:57,690 --> 00:21:00,690 S1: or understanding that these jobs are hard on, you know, 428 00:21:00,730 --> 00:21:03,250 S1: they all believe that these jobs are hard on the family. 429 00:21:03,250 --> 00:21:05,490 S1: They're hard on marriages. They're hard on your relationship with 430 00:21:05,490 --> 00:21:06,850 S1: your kids. And you want to kind of leave that 431 00:21:06,850 --> 00:21:07,770 S1: stuff alone. 432 00:21:07,810 --> 00:21:10,050 S4: Jacqui, you made that point earlier. You make it now. 433 00:21:10,050 --> 00:21:13,330 S4: You made it earlier. You're right. These are tough jobs. 434 00:21:13,330 --> 00:21:16,890 S4: Politicians do work really hard, you know. Yes, they're well paid, 435 00:21:16,890 --> 00:21:18,649 S4: but they deserve to be well paid. And if they 436 00:21:18,650 --> 00:21:21,370 S4: were in the private sector as a CEO, they, you know, 437 00:21:21,410 --> 00:21:24,070 S4: quite likely a lot of them would be on $1.5 438 00:21:24,070 --> 00:21:28,550 S4: million a year, not $300,000 a year or 240 or 400. 439 00:21:28,590 --> 00:21:31,110 S4: But to some extent we do, you know, I mean, 440 00:21:31,150 --> 00:21:33,630 S4: you do get what you pay for, and there should 441 00:21:33,630 --> 00:21:37,310 S4: be entitlements to get people like Anika Wells into Parliament. 442 00:21:37,310 --> 00:21:41,070 S4: Because I will say it again, she's a very talented minister, right? 443 00:21:41,109 --> 00:21:43,950 S4: She's a young woman or relatively young woman. And I 444 00:21:43,950 --> 00:21:47,469 S4: don't mean that in a condescending way. She's got three kids. Um, 445 00:21:47,510 --> 00:21:50,630 S4: you know, we want people like that in Parliament. That's great. 446 00:21:50,630 --> 00:21:55,109 S4: But that does not mean necessarily that she should be 447 00:21:55,109 --> 00:21:58,350 S4: claiming some of these expenses, like the two things can 448 00:21:58,350 --> 00:22:02,350 S4: exist and both be true simultaneously. Some of these expenses 449 00:22:02,350 --> 00:22:03,550 S4: don't pass the pub test. 450 00:22:03,590 --> 00:22:06,190 S3: There's a strong argument and some MPs make this in private. 451 00:22:06,190 --> 00:22:08,750 S3: They would never make it in public that if MPs 452 00:22:08,790 --> 00:22:11,950 S3: were all paid more, you wouldn't need these entitlements. You 453 00:22:11,950 --> 00:22:14,590 S3: wouldn't need this arcane bureaucratic system which costs a lot 454 00:22:14,590 --> 00:22:18,230 S3: of money to administrate and which, when revealed, makes all 455 00:22:18,230 --> 00:22:20,670 S3: politicians look like they've got their snouts in the trough, 456 00:22:20,670 --> 00:22:23,110 S3: because there's all these little tricks they can use. If 457 00:22:23,109 --> 00:22:24,970 S3: they were paid at a higher rate, they could fund 458 00:22:24,970 --> 00:22:27,129 S3: some of this themselves. And we wouldn't need to go 459 00:22:27,130 --> 00:22:29,650 S3: through this rigmarole. But it's a brave politician who says 460 00:22:29,650 --> 00:22:30,530 S3: we should be paid more. 461 00:22:30,609 --> 00:22:31,410 S1: Yeah, exactly. 462 00:22:31,609 --> 00:22:33,770 S4: Paul, I have to interrupt you there for a moment. 463 00:22:33,810 --> 00:22:37,410 S4: They'll come up. Um, Anika Wells is on about $400,000 464 00:22:37,450 --> 00:22:38,970 S4: a year as a cabinet minister. 465 00:22:38,970 --> 00:22:41,810 S3: But most, most politicians are on 215 grand a year. 466 00:22:42,250 --> 00:22:46,490 S4: Ago. 240. And look, are you seriously telling me that 467 00:22:46,490 --> 00:22:51,210 S4: a person on $400,000 a year can't afford to fly 468 00:22:51,450 --> 00:22:55,689 S4: his or her husband or wife or partner down from 469 00:22:55,690 --> 00:22:59,090 S4: Brisbane to Melbourne and then back? We're talking about an 470 00:22:59,130 --> 00:23:01,970 S4: $800 flight. And you're right, I can't afford that. That's 471 00:23:01,970 --> 00:23:04,130 S4: what she's I mean, that's what the family reunions are. 472 00:23:04,170 --> 00:23:05,330 S4: This is the Boxing Day. 473 00:23:05,369 --> 00:23:05,889 S3: She could. 474 00:23:05,930 --> 00:23:06,170 S4: She. 475 00:23:06,170 --> 00:23:06,410 S3: Could. 476 00:23:06,410 --> 00:23:08,169 S4: Fund it. Of course she can afford it. 477 00:23:08,210 --> 00:23:11,690 S3: But James, as as, you know, like there are journalists 478 00:23:11,690 --> 00:23:15,330 S3: on approximately the salary of backbenchers, they all still have 479 00:23:15,330 --> 00:23:18,610 S3: big mortgages. They all still have expenses. And if there 480 00:23:18,650 --> 00:23:20,850 S3: is an if there is an ability to get a 481 00:23:20,890 --> 00:23:23,510 S3: freebie for your partner and you're on 250 grand a year, 482 00:23:23,510 --> 00:23:26,350 S3: you probably try and take it. Yeah. And you're only. 483 00:23:27,030 --> 00:23:28,870 S3: You're only in politics for a certain. Well, they do, 484 00:23:28,910 --> 00:23:29,869 S3: but they entitlement. 485 00:23:30,230 --> 00:23:32,510 S1: As I said before, an entitlement is entitlement. So they're 486 00:23:32,510 --> 00:23:35,109 S1: not doing anything wrong by using their entitlements. They're literally 487 00:23:35,109 --> 00:23:39,750 S1: entitled to them. But it's a very, very controversial issue. 488 00:23:39,750 --> 00:23:43,429 S1: And I think most people aren't earning that amount of money. 489 00:23:43,430 --> 00:23:45,709 S1: And they do see politicians as being, you know, they're 490 00:23:45,710 --> 00:23:48,910 S1: more likely to see politicians as being self-interested. And also, 491 00:23:48,950 --> 00:23:50,990 S1: the stuff that Anika Wells is doing is kind of 492 00:23:51,030 --> 00:23:54,070 S1: fun stuff. I think that's that's key as well. She's 493 00:23:54,070 --> 00:23:56,510 S1: not she's not bringing her kids to Canberra to, like, 494 00:23:56,550 --> 00:23:59,270 S1: trudge around questacon like the rest of us do. Not 495 00:23:59,270 --> 00:24:00,270 S1: giving away my. 496 00:24:00,590 --> 00:24:03,470 S4: I won't hear a bad word against Questacon Jackie. It's 497 00:24:03,510 --> 00:24:06,189 S4: it's nothing wrong with it, but it's not. Skiing at 498 00:24:06,190 --> 00:24:07,790 S4: Thredbo is terrific. 499 00:24:07,830 --> 00:24:10,470 S3: Yeah, the the cut through here comes from the events 500 00:24:10,470 --> 00:24:13,070 S3: that Minister Wells has to go to. Yeah, I was 501 00:24:13,070 --> 00:24:16,750 S3: speaking to a former sports minister who said that. Yeah, 502 00:24:16,750 --> 00:24:19,350 S3: they did like to bring their partners to events, because 503 00:24:19,350 --> 00:24:22,250 S3: if you go to the grand final of NRL or AFL, 504 00:24:22,290 --> 00:24:24,729 S3: Gillon McLachlan or Sir Andrew Dillon, now the CEO or 505 00:24:24,770 --> 00:24:27,330 S3: Andrew Abdo at NRL or Peter V'landys, they all have 506 00:24:27,330 --> 00:24:29,810 S3: their partners there too. So you look like you're out 507 00:24:29,810 --> 00:24:30,970 S3: of school if you don't have yours. 508 00:24:31,010 --> 00:24:32,490 S1: So it would be a little bit lonely and awkward. 509 00:24:32,530 --> 00:24:34,369 S1: I mean, they're people, right? Nobody wants to turn up 510 00:24:34,369 --> 00:24:37,330 S1: to these kinds of things. Stag. I get it personally. 511 00:24:37,330 --> 00:24:39,330 S1: And I think they want they want to stay married. 512 00:24:39,330 --> 00:24:40,930 S1: So they're like, you know, honey, why don't you come 513 00:24:40,930 --> 00:24:43,210 S1: down from Brisbane this weekend and we can spend some 514 00:24:43,210 --> 00:24:44,930 S1: time together, even though I have to go to this 515 00:24:44,930 --> 00:24:46,490 S1: work event? I get it. 516 00:24:46,770 --> 00:24:49,570 S4: But, you know, once or twice, Jackie, but every grand 517 00:24:49,570 --> 00:24:53,010 S4: final for the NRL, the AFL, the Formula One. 518 00:24:53,050 --> 00:24:54,930 S1: I think we're I think we're never going to solve 519 00:24:54,930 --> 00:24:57,370 S1: this argument. All that we can agree upon is that 520 00:24:57,369 --> 00:25:00,090 S1: taking your kids to Questacon in Canberra on the holidays 521 00:25:00,090 --> 00:25:05,449 S1: is a great family, fun, adventure, and very cost of 522 00:25:05,450 --> 00:25:06,210 S1: living friendly. 523 00:25:06,650 --> 00:25:09,449 S4: Yeah. No, no, it's it's it's a terrible idea and 524 00:25:09,450 --> 00:25:12,090 S4: it's a recipe for a giant headache. And I can 525 00:25:12,090 --> 00:25:15,170 S4: say that as a father of three young children, they 526 00:25:15,170 --> 00:25:16,770 S4: have fun. We get the headache. 527 00:25:16,810 --> 00:25:20,790 S1: Yeah, yeah. Um, anyway, see you at questacon over the summer. 528 00:25:20,830 --> 00:25:23,869 S1: We will of course be recording next week. James, thanks 529 00:25:23,869 --> 00:25:25,710 S1: so much for coming on. It was a very lively 530 00:25:25,710 --> 00:25:26,870 S1: debate with you, as always. 531 00:25:27,430 --> 00:25:28,070 S4: Yeah. Pleasure. 532 00:25:28,510 --> 00:25:29,110 S3: Thanks, guys. 533 00:25:36,630 --> 00:25:39,710 S1: Today's episode was produced by Kai Wong with technical assistance 534 00:25:39,710 --> 00:25:43,350 S1: from Debbie Harrington. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. And 535 00:25:43,350 --> 00:25:47,270 S1: special thanks to Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. To listen 536 00:25:47,270 --> 00:25:49,710 S1: to our episodes as soon as they drop, follow Inside 537 00:25:49,710 --> 00:25:52,989 S1: Politics on Apple, Spotify or anywhere else you listen to 538 00:25:52,990 --> 00:25:56,670 S1: your podcasts. To stay up to date with all the politics, 539 00:25:56,670 --> 00:25:59,710 S1: news and exclusives, visit The Age or The Sydney Morning 540 00:25:59,710 --> 00:26:03,510 S1: Herald websites. And to support our journalism, subscribe to us 541 00:26:03,510 --> 00:26:09,590 S1: by visiting The Age or. Subscribe. I'm Jacqueline Maley. Thank 542 00:26:09,630 --> 00:26:10,389 S1: you for listening.